Face it Shaun, I think everybody misses those old S&M Season2 episode trailers (let alone the cinematic one) , I still remember Jared's face when he was catching the "soul train" token in S&M:205's trailer
@markeres
I didn't write that their games are terrible, neither am i tearing them down.
I did write that their games just ripple, utalising more powerful technology, adding new platforms, more distribution channels but without that the games themselfes enhance as well and getting awesome at some point. Beside of CSI and the latest poker game, i've played every game and from my experiences i can't say that the games enhanced a lot.
So i would like to ask you, if you for instance could point me to a few examples where the puzzle design enhanced the way the gfx did.
Personally i expect more from TTG than just pushing out the same, or in some aspects even less, quality over and over again.
Why isn't TTG with all their ressources and experience able to produce a game with the intensity of a game like Machinarium?
But puzzles don't have to get progressively harder on every Telltale release, even while the graphics improve.
I do understand your creativity comment, but the monkey-chair puzzle, (and room key in Puzzle Agent for me) was amazing, and weren't that long ago. Most adventure games have maybe one or two 'classic' puzzles, and as one season is equivalent to one 'full game', the strikerate seems on par with other developers.
I'm still playing S&M S3, for what it's worth - what I have played is amazing, story wise, and the puzzles are solid to date.
Telltale may not be making the games you're imagining in your head, but what makes your idea of what an adventure game should be the 'correct' one?
Also, your earlier comment about Telltale being greedy is a bit harsh, no? Any business needs to grow. But maybe they just want to ensure their staff get paid and they don't ever have to pull a Lucasarts and lay off teams. That's not greedy at all.
You misunderstood me with the gfx comparison. What i wanted to say is that there are aspects in TTG's games, like the gfx, which enhanced over the time and that there are aspects like the riddle design, which haven't enhanced at the same (i even would say that in most cases they haven't enhance at all).
Sam&Max S3 got really boring at some point, mostly too many stereotypes & boring puzzles/situations. A really interesting story looks different and needs a little bit more work than just throwing a few weird scenes at the player.
Regarding your What would be a better adventure game. This is something you could write pages about, discuss and go into detail and comparison to visualise each point, which is something i don't have the time for right now, so just a few draft lines...
I think that a very good adventure game should be built on a solid if possible unique story. This might be placed in a well thought out and sexy universe, it might be based on a interesting idea. It should come with depth, making sense/feelign round and getting you interested in exploring and caring about this world, its characters and their problems. The riddles should fit perfectly to the problems and situations the hopefully not only stereotypical characters have to deal with on their way getting their problems solved. It would need unqiue and interesting riddles and a few more complex ones as well. And when i write unique i mean not only one unique riddle per season or episode.
The dialogues would be funny/interesting, depending on what type of game you're after and they would keep you interested in reading them instead of rushing through the options. As my idols are The DIG/Broken Sword 1/Machrinarium/Grim Fandango/..., i could perfectly life without the slapstick humour. I think humour generally still is a individual thing and you can please people on a non humour/differet humour level as well.
The game would offer point&click for those devices which offer better steering possibilities than just some joypad.
There would be inventory puzzles.
The gfx would be less demanding but very strong on the art/style sides. I definately would risk more here and go into well drawn comics direction for instance.
I would like to have more unique music as well again. The music doesn't need to control every scene but it also sometimes needs this awesomeness and uniqueness which makes you remember a certain scene. A lot of TTG music in Sam&Max 3 sounded professional but so exchangeable without any character, just like some elvator music. But music doesn't need to sound professional, it just needs to touch you.
:
Sorry, i really have to work now but as i wrote i could go into details for hours/days if i had the time to ...
Technological / engine improvements are a given. Puzzle 'creativity' not so much - I think TTG is as good as any other Adventure developer when it comes to puzzles.
Greedy?
They've been practically giving away everything in the store this month.
Have you ever been on the internet and seen all the other sales actions? This is part of the business nowadays but there have been other threads discussing this subject already. Personally i have no need for the calendar because i own everything i need from TTG already and as a gift i prefer donating one of those more awesome indie offers.
@jp-30
They are worse than the best but also better than others. The problems are a) that some of these people once made the best adventures and now we get less quality adventures and b) that due to the iterations it gets more and more boring without evolution. Seeing especially TTG stepping into the technology trap is kind of weird as they should know better.
I say your claim of "I'm the hand that feeds, not the industry" is unfair to a large, large degree. You could hand over your money to anyone, but not anyone is willing to bring you your childhood heroes.
This cannot turn into an excuse for every fault. I wouldn't be respecting them as developers if I fell on my knees in front of EVERYTHING they do, just because I see Sam & Max or Guybrush.
Honestly, I was particularly curious about their Pilot Program, I was craving for original stuff coming from Telltale. So far I just have a beautiful Layton-clone and a poker game, which doesn't even feature original characters! I mean, even the old Telltale Texas Hold'em was more "pilotprogram" than that!
But I can live with that: I'm sure that there are commercial reasons behind these choices. Unfortunately, there's one thing I really cannot live with: the idea that these "pilot program" games are not even given the amount of polishing that could make them stronger.
Since they're not original (design-wise), they should be at least bullet-proof.
Otherwise, I really don't see their point, especially when their major titles could use some more time to get faster localizations, better bug-testing, complete updates and extras.
Speaking of game-design and writing, I generally like their work on The Devil's Playhouse and other major stuff, and I think that The Tomb of Sammun-Mak and The City That Dares not Sleep are stunning, way better than your average adventure game. Of course, they couldn't possibly keep the quality always that high, but that's obvious.
Could they make their major titles even better if they ditched tons of collateral activities? I think so.
The main defense Telltale diehard fans use, "they're a small company", doesn't hold up any longer. I know they are, that's exactly the reason why I'm writing this stuff!
Aside from the fact that at this stage of being a member you should know better than to triple post, I honestly can't see what's the problem with Telltale Games and their games. Now it could be because I don't actually play the games I bought, but you have to remember, creativity is pretty much a subjective matter. Not to mention the fact that everything has been done already. You can't simply "create" new ideas, you have to get these ideas from somewhere.
Puzzles don't appear out of thin air, and neither does time or money. Even for a sort of independent company, they have to stick to deadlines. You can't hold off on a game indefinitely, that would just cost a lot of money.
In the end, every game has to be done. You can't keep on working on a story forever, eventually it has to become a game. You can't work on inventing new puzzles, because eventually it has to be incorporated in the story and gameplay. You also can't work on the game forever, because eventually it has to be released. All that must happen within a certain time period, because money has to be made, employees have to be paid.
There's a huge process going down when creating a video game. It's not as simple as you think.
Also, your earlier comment about Telltale being greedy is a bit harsh, no? Any business needs to grow. But maybe they just want to ensure their staff get paid and they don't ever have to pull a Lucasarts and lay off teams. That's not greedy at all.
Missed it in the hurry...
I don't think it's harsh, as i offered it as a possibility. TTG has a very good business sense and is very good in execution but you don't need to grow all the time. Really that's complete nonsense. Things can turn out uncomfortable at a certain size as well and it's also not wrong staying a little bit smaller or not growing this fast as long as it's profitable, you're enjoying what you're doing and can produce some quality games. But i somehow have the feeling that this is not what TTG is mainly after.
At the end of the day, as a gamer, i do not care about how big TTG is. They could occupy the half of Congo or half of an appartment. I only care about how good the game i'm playing is.
As much as we complain about the long waits and phantom release dates...please, please take your time with the testing. Obviously there will always be *something* that slips under the radar, but having to push out patches for fairly glaring bugs is becoming a disappointing trend for devs as of late. Poker Night wasn't exactly Alpha Protocol, but...
I really don't see what the problem is, perhaps I've been one of the few lucky ones and have not encountered many bugs(the only one I can recall is on the train in SM3). Puzzle Agent was perfect to me, as is Poker Night.
The only thing I could complain about(which, I'm not really) is more merchandise! Here I am just willing to give my money to you TT!
Anyway, I'm not too sure that Telltale will take much advice from this thread, puzzle quality is an opinion, I think they're brilliant. When one of these "Slow down!" threads appears, 10 more "I want my game nooooow" threads appear. They can't please everybody.
The kinder and more understanding some people observe the situation, the harsher and less credible the other people get. Still can't believe how we got to "Telltale sucks at basically everything" from just "latest releases are buggier than usual".
I agree with jp-30. You can't create stuff, but you can use stuff effectively. And I do think that's how Telltale caught the fame.
Another factor is that if Telltale are now selling 10x the amount of games as they were a few years ago, and 1% of the population is experiences glitches and posts about them, then it's going to seem like things are 10x worse than they were before.
When in fact, the quality / testing / whatever is no different to what it was.
Another factor is that if Telltale are now selling 10x the amount of games as they were a few years ago, and 1% of the population is experiences glitches and posts about them, then it's going to seem like things are 10x worse than they were before.
When in fact, the quality / testing / whatever is no different to what it was.
I disagree as personally i had zero issues with the earlier seasons whilst the latest games all had their issues in the beginning, i would say starting with W&G/TOMI. Puzzle Agent, the latest game i bought for instance, showed no menus and had a few issues in certain puzzles. If you take the time to look things up you can also see that quite some of the reported bugs were confirmed by TTG.
So going from no issues to several problems sounds pretty much like a decrease in QA to me.
I disagree as personally i had zero issues with the earlier seasons whilst the latest games all had their issues in the beginning, i would say starting with W&G/TOMI. Puzzle Agent, the latest game i bought for instance, showed no menus and had a few issues in certain puzzles. If you take the time to look things up you can also see that quite some of the reported bugs were confirmed by TTG.
So going from no issues to several problems sounds pretty much like a decrease in QA to me.
I'm not denying there are bugs. But I've been here long enough to know this sort of thing has happened with every single release.
It's part and parcel of PC development, with so many variables to take into account, especially now with the newer graphics the games are displaying that may require up-to-date drivers and pixel shaders and whatnot.
I'm sad you personally experienced a few graphical glitches, where you hadn't before. I've been glitch free so far with all releases. And I dare say I'm in the vast majority. Those with problems have the loudest voices, and if TTG are selling more copies, there will be more complaints. This doesn't necessarily signal a drop in product quality, as you're on your soapbox about.
I need you to stop sucking Telltale's dick for a few minutes so we can talk about something.
You joined in 2006. You are a Sam and Max fan.
You should be well aware of how important and valuable Surfin' the Highway was. You should be well aware of the effort, the time, and the additional content that was brought together for its release. You should also be keenly aware of Surfin' the Highway's rarity before this, you should know quite well the prices that fetched on eBay. And you should know that the reprinting was good enough to get an Eisner nomination for best reprint, despite not even coming from a regular comic publisher.
You should then also be well-aware that the printing of artwork that had already been produced for promotional or in-game use is by no means even BEGINS to approach the importance, value, and downright awesome of the Surfin' the Highway reprint. Don't disrespect the book by insinuating that it does.
Dashing. Dude. Does everything have to be so aggressive?
Not everything. But friend, you devalued Surfin' the Highway when you should by all accounts know better. That's as close to a cardinal sin as a gets in Sam and Max fandom.
Lol. Dashing, please try not to post so many insults. I don't really think it's your call to tell me what I should like and value and... whatever. Outside the Sam & Max games, the other stuff doesn't really mean that much to me.
Early 2008' conversation at Telltales:
- We did it! We released Surfin' the Highway! Oh but... That means that we won't ever be able to do anything better... All we can do now is shutting down the company...
- Are you kidding?
- Just give me some time to recover...
Lol. Dashing, please try not to post so many insults. I don't really think it's your call to tell me what I should like and value and... whatever. Outside the Sam & Max games, the other stuff doesn't really mean that much to me.
What? Come on man, you have to be pulling my leg. Surfin' the Highway contains the definitive versions of the characters. When looking at any piece of Sam and Max media, you have to refer back to the comics. It is the end-all source, the bible of Sam and Max. It contains their history, and it's an invaluable tome of reference material. I would go so far as to say that you can't call yourself a proper Sam and Max fan until you've read Surfin' the Highway.
Comments
I didn't write that their games are terrible, neither am i tearing them down.
I did write that their games just ripple, utalising more powerful technology, adding new platforms, more distribution channels but without that the games themselfes enhance as well and getting awesome at some point. Beside of CSI and the latest poker game, i've played every game and from my experiences i can't say that the games enhanced a lot.
So i would like to ask you, if you for instance could point me to a few examples where the puzzle design enhanced the way the gfx did.
Personally i expect more from TTG than just pushing out the same, or in some aspects even less, quality over and over again.
Why isn't TTG with all their ressources and experience able to produce a game with the intensity of a game like Machinarium?
I do understand your creativity comment, but the monkey-chair puzzle, (and room key in Puzzle Agent for me) was amazing, and weren't that long ago. Most adventure games have maybe one or two 'classic' puzzles, and as one season is equivalent to one 'full game', the strikerate seems on par with other developers.
I'm still playing S&M S3, for what it's worth - what I have played is amazing, story wise, and the puzzles are solid to date.
Telltale may not be making the games you're imagining in your head, but what makes your idea of what an adventure game should be the 'correct' one?
Also, your earlier comment about Telltale being greedy is a bit harsh, no? Any business needs to grow. But maybe they just want to ensure their staff get paid and they don't ever have to pull a Lucasarts and lay off teams. That's not greedy at all.
Sam&Max S3 got really boring at some point, mostly too many stereotypes & boring puzzles/situations. A really interesting story looks different and needs a little bit more work than just throwing a few weird scenes at the player.
Regarding your What would be a better adventure game. This is something you could write pages about, discuss and go into detail and comparison to visualise each point, which is something i don't have the time for right now, so just a few draft lines...
I think that a very good adventure game should be built on a solid if possible unique story. This might be placed in a well thought out and sexy universe, it might be based on a interesting idea. It should come with depth, making sense/feelign round and getting you interested in exploring and caring about this world, its characters and their problems. The riddles should fit perfectly to the problems and situations the hopefully not only stereotypical characters have to deal with on their way getting their problems solved. It would need unqiue and interesting riddles and a few more complex ones as well. And when i write unique i mean not only one unique riddle per season or episode.
The dialogues would be funny/interesting, depending on what type of game you're after and they would keep you interested in reading them instead of rushing through the options. As my idols are The DIG/Broken Sword 1/Machrinarium/Grim Fandango/..., i could perfectly life without the slapstick humour. I think humour generally still is a individual thing and you can please people on a non humour/differet humour level as well.
The game would offer point&click for those devices which offer better steering possibilities than just some joypad.
There would be inventory puzzles.
The gfx would be less demanding but very strong on the art/style sides. I definately would risk more here and go into well drawn comics direction for instance.
I would like to have more unique music as well again. The music doesn't need to control every scene but it also sometimes needs this awesomeness and uniqueness which makes you remember a certain scene. A lot of TTG music in Sam&Max 3 sounded professional but so exchangeable without any character, just like some elvator music. But music doesn't need to sound professional, it just needs to touch you.
:
Sorry, i really have to work now but as i wrote i could go into details for hours/days if i had the time to ...
They've been practically giving away everything in the store this month.
Technological / engine improvements are a given. Puzzle 'creativity' not so much - I think TTG is as good as any other Adventure developer when it comes to puzzles.
Have you ever been on the internet and seen all the other sales actions? This is part of the business nowadays but there have been other threads discussing this subject already. Personally i have no need for the calendar because i own everything i need from TTG already and as a gift i prefer donating one of those more awesome indie offers.
They are worse than the best but also better than others. The problems are a) that some of these people once made the best adventures and now we get less quality adventures and b) that due to the iterations it gets more and more boring without evolution. Seeing especially TTG stepping into the technology trap is kind of weird as they should know better.
This cannot turn into an excuse for every fault. I wouldn't be respecting them as developers if I fell on my knees in front of EVERYTHING they do, just because I see Sam & Max or Guybrush.
Honestly, I was particularly curious about their Pilot Program, I was craving for original stuff coming from Telltale. So far I just have a beautiful Layton-clone and a poker game, which doesn't even feature original characters! I mean, even the old Telltale Texas Hold'em was more "pilotprogram" than that!
But I can live with that: I'm sure that there are commercial reasons behind these choices. Unfortunately, there's one thing I really cannot live with: the idea that these "pilot program" games are not even given the amount of polishing that could make them stronger.
Since they're not original (design-wise), they should be at least bullet-proof.
Otherwise, I really don't see their point, especially when their major titles could use some more time to get faster localizations, better bug-testing, complete updates and extras.
Speaking of game-design and writing, I generally like their work on The Devil's Playhouse and other major stuff, and I think that The Tomb of Sammun-Mak and The City That Dares not Sleep are stunning, way better than your average adventure game. Of course, they couldn't possibly keep the quality always that high, but that's obvious.
Could they make their major titles even better if they ditched tons of collateral activities? I think so.
The main defense Telltale diehard fans use, "they're a small company", doesn't hold up any longer. I know they are, that's exactly the reason why I'm writing this stuff!
Puzzles don't appear out of thin air, and neither does time or money. Even for a sort of independent company, they have to stick to deadlines. You can't hold off on a game indefinitely, that would just cost a lot of money.
In the end, every game has to be done. You can't keep on working on a story forever, eventually it has to become a game. You can't work on inventing new puzzles, because eventually it has to be incorporated in the story and gameplay. You also can't work on the game forever, because eventually it has to be released. All that must happen within a certain time period, because money has to be made, employees have to be paid.
There's a huge process going down when creating a video game. It's not as simple as you think.
???
Missed it in the hurry...
I don't think it's harsh, as i offered it as a possibility. TTG has a very good business sense and is very good in execution but you don't need to grow all the time. Really that's complete nonsense. Things can turn out uncomfortable at a certain size as well and it's also not wrong staying a little bit smaller or not growing this fast as long as it's profitable, you're enjoying what you're doing and can produce some quality games. But i somehow have the feeling that this is not what TTG is mainly after.
At the end of the day, as a gamer, i do not care about how big TTG is. They could occupy the half of Congo or half of an appartment. I only care about how good the game i'm playing is.
Just my 2 constructive cents.
The only thing I could complain about(which, I'm not really) is more merchandise! Here I am just willing to give my money to you TT!
Anyway, I'm not too sure that Telltale will take much advice from this thread, puzzle quality is an opinion, I think they're brilliant. When one of these "Slow down!" threads appears, 10 more "I want my game nooooow" threads appear. They can't please everybody.
I agree with jp-30. You can't create stuff, but you can use stuff effectively. And I do think that's how Telltale caught the fame.
When in fact, the quality / testing / whatever is no different to what it was.
That's a given. ;-)
I disagree as personally i had zero issues with the earlier seasons whilst the latest games all had their issues in the beginning, i would say starting with W&G/TOMI. Puzzle Agent, the latest game i bought for instance, showed no menus and had a few issues in certain puzzles. If you take the time to look things up you can also see that quite some of the reported bugs were confirmed by TTG.
So going from no issues to several problems sounds pretty much like a decrease in QA to me.
qft.
Cry some more, really. One day people responding to you will get tired.
I'm not denying there are bugs. But I've been here long enough to know this sort of thing has happened with every single release.
Look at the tail of the support forum.
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25&order=desc&page=26
It's part and parcel of PC development, with so many variables to take into account, especially now with the newer graphics the games are displaying that may require up-to-date drivers and pixel shaders and whatnot.
I'm sad you personally experienced a few graphical glitches, where you hadn't before. I've been glitch free so far with all releases. And I dare say I'm in the vast majority. Those with problems have the loudest voices, and if TTG are selling more copies, there will be more complaints. This doesn't necessarily signal a drop in product quality, as you're on your soapbox about.
How long has it been since Telltale have done something this amazing?
http://www.telltalegames.com/store/snm-poster-set
I need you to stop sucking Telltale's dick for a few minutes so we can talk about something.
You joined in 2006. You are a Sam and Max fan.
You should be well aware of how important and valuable Surfin' the Highway was. You should be well aware of the effort, the time, and the additional content that was brought together for its release. You should also be keenly aware of Surfin' the Highway's rarity before this, you should know quite well the prices that fetched on eBay. And you should know that the reprinting was good enough to get an Eisner nomination for best reprint, despite not even coming from a regular comic publisher.
You should then also be well-aware that the printing of artwork that had already been produced for promotional or in-game use is by no means even BEGINS to approach the importance, value, and downright awesome of the Surfin' the Highway reprint. Don't disrespect the book by insinuating that it does.
...
...The Adventure Bundle. That was also pretty awesome.
Off-topic: *looks at post count* Seems like this is the post of the devil.
It wouldn't be as cool as reprinting Surfin' the Highway, but they could finally get around to releasing a Season Three case file and soundtrack.
- We did it!
- Are you kidding?
- Just give me some time to recover...
I'm an adventure game fan, though. A "proper" one, too, possibly.