Jane: worst guardian ever
So has there already been a thread about how it's finally canon that Jane is selfish to the core and a complete failure as a guardian/mentor/protective older friend?
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So has there already been a thread about how it's finally canon that Jane is selfish to the core and a complete failure as a guardian/mentor/protective older friend?
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nah, never heard that before.
Lee>Kenny>Christa>Jane IMO
Lee, Kenny and Christa never committed suicide which I think is one of the worst choices in real life. So yeah, Jane was such a coward bitch for killing herself.
I mean, bad writing doesnt exactly help either
I typed it before and I'll type it again... somehow in death she looked even more selfish.
Funny how when Katjaa chose suicide nobody blamed her but when Jane committed suicide then it's another reason to hate her.
I thought it was in character.
Hmmm.. But Katjaa didn't leave two children behind and made one of them kill her father figure only to commit suicide a couple of days later.
I'd argue that, out of all 3 possible guardians (Jane, Kenny and Edith), we can end S2 with, Kenny was the worst one and Jane was arguably the better. Don't get me wrong, they were all terrible and endangered her in a way.
Kenny was... not smart. Or responsible. Not enough to be a good guardian. Sure, he has a heart of gold when he's not murdering people for the lolz... and an incredibly strong bond with Clementine (well, some Clementines...), but he's pretty reckless to have two kids under his care. Let's face it, were it not for their plot armor, and Clementine and AJ would be dead. Kenny urges Clementine to drive at high velocity in an icy road and then leaves her unattended. What in the actual fuck. Face-fucking-palm. How fucking reckless can you be?? Obviously, the situation ended up in a car crash, and if it was realistic, Clem and AJ would've ended up in a way worse condition, if not dead.
Say what you want, but Jane ending her own life did not directly endanger Clementine. Sure, selfish as fuck, I WON'T ARGUE, but was Clementine dependent on Jane's life? No. Jane left her in a safe place, with a greenhouse and supplies, her suicide would not change that. Somewhy, Clementine decides to leave that place later (no explanation TellTale? Mmmh, ok...), but she was at least always safe under Jane's care.
I can't say anything about Edith besides that in her version AJ would've ended up crushed.
I agree.
Jane committing suicide just seems like something she wouldn't do, especially in a manner where she would come back as a walker. Hell, why did she not even consider an abortion if she was that frantic about burdening Clementine and AJ due to carrying an unborn child? Why did suicide even cross her mind to begin with when she showed no suicidal thoughts or tendencies in Season 2?
I can't help but feel that the writers just wanted to find an excuse to get rid of Jane, much like as they did with Kenny, and just picked suicide for her flashback sequence.
I'm not a big fan of Jane, but I do feel that Jane's fans got the short end of the straw here. It doesn't help that it seems mighty convenient that all of Kenny's finales end on a heroic light regardless of the outcome and his past behavior, while Jane never gets to have a heroic finale herself and instead goes out in a out-of-character fashion to twist the knife even further.
she didn't have a human being inside of her
Yeah... and Katjaa didn't just leave behind her dying son whose dad had to watch die or kill him himself, leaving him scarred for life...
Oh, wait...
Yeah, well, he was dying already. Jane killed her own kid and abandoned two others.
No-one can top Vernon as the worst guardian.
He offers Lee to take Clementine under his wing as her new guardian in Around Every Corner when things started to look grim about her parents, and especially how her group is lacking the supplies to care for everyone involved. Then the next day, he robs Clementine's group and leaves them stranded while a mass of walkers head towards their way, and this was right after Clementine was kidnapped (though to be fair, he didn't know that).
At least Jane tried to do her part for sometime before the writers planted 'suicide' in her head to get rid of her. But Vernon? He didn't even give abandoning Clementine a second thought, the same girl who he supposedly expressed interest in adopting for her own well being.
Granted, Vernon doesn't really count as a guardian since he never took that first step to begin with, but still.
I've never seen such bias in my entire time here and I have a hard time believing that you can even subscribe to this logic.
Really??! Because he keeps the children safe and in good spirits for at least 2-3 years, whereas Jane ends her own life after just a few weeks of being a depressed mess. Kenny was a way better guardian just on that aspect alone.
He has never murdered anybody for "lolz". Every time he has killed someone there has been a reason for it. Larry was going to turn, Johnny was helping Carver hold his friends hostage, Carver murdered many innocent people and beat his eye out, the Russians tried to rob them in an ambush and would've killed them all, and Jane pretended that AJ was dead just so that she had an excuse to murder him. Don't pretend like he's some serial killer who gets his kicks from innocent blood and death.
Are you fucking kidding me right now? His body was fucking PARALYZED, he couldn't move at all. He yells at the walkers and sacrifices himself so that Clem can get AJ and escape safely. He didn't make a conscious choice to die and leave the kids behind like SOMEONE we know (cough Jane cough). Give me a fucking break, what you said is a blatant LIE.
Yes, it really did. Jane's rope could've snapped, leaving a walker in their safe place without Clem realizing it. Something could've happened during Clem's perimeter sweep where she needed aid, and Jane would've been dead already and unable to help. Do you even understand what being a guardian for children means?
Katjaa abandoned her husband who was about to lose a son.
Katjaa did not have a baby inside her who could eat her from the inside out if it ever died.
Katjaa wasn't going to be left under the care of a 11-year-old.
Katjaa wasn't going to need special care or medical help for the next 9 months to keep herself healthy.
Katjaa wasn't going to have trouble fighting walkers for the loss of agility pregnancy brings.
And finally, Katjaa wasn't going to bring a kid to live, just to watch it suffer in a zombie apocalypse for the rest of its life or die a horrible death.
Please, if Jane's suicide was selfish (which it was) then so was Katjaa's.
I mean, I guess you can say it is, but then it goes back to the problem that it makes Season 2 so worthless.
If Jane is just going to kill herself if she gets pregnant, why even risk it with Luke. Why kill Kenny if 2 weeks later its, "Welp time to die." Why keep talking about how you're gonna teach Clem so much if, "lol killing myself."
Maybe before she met Clem, but it almost completely ruins her character about how she wanted to try and help Clem and started to change who she was just to kill herself.
I don't think she was the WORST guardian of all time, but I do think she could be selfish at times. I'm pretty sure she cared a lot about Clementine as shown in S2. She taught her stuff, spent time with her, saved her a few times, and came back for her etc. I think the writing was just bad for her character in S3 like other have said. We didn't get to really talk to her or interact with her at all in S3 and all that was really shown was her crappy death scene. I'm pretty sure she didn't want to commit suicide but the pregnancy, the loss of her sister and Luke, having to take care of two kids and possibly a third, and the apocalypse itself just all started weighing down on her and it finally got the best of her. A part of me believes that she truly cared about Clementine, but she never really wanted to be her permanent guardian forever. I believe she probably would of had someone else take care of her when she felt she was no longer needed in Clementine's life.
No, instead she left behind a husband who was already losing a son. But at least he can still pass for a "father figure" despite being more focused on letting out his rage and finding a happy place rather than keeping Clem safe.
Actually, I think they needed AJ to be big enough to wear a seatbelt so the scene could be made possible. But I'll give you that.
Still, had Jane been alive, and I don't doubt that her level-headedness and survival instincts and mastery would be better for AJ's and Clem's safety. But I guess that's up for debate.
Sigh. I am clearly the bias one.
Why did Kenny kill Jane?
"Oh, calm down princess!"
I was talking about when he turns his back on Clem for getting AJ his blanket while she drove, in high-velocity, in a fucking icy road. Reckless, you see?
Next time, try to read the post you're responding to more carefully? Just a though!
Key-word: directly.
I agree with IronWoodLover. Both suicides were selfish (all suicides are) but they were understandable. I'm just annoyed with the double standard players have against Jane.
Even Kenny said that Katjaa's suicide was selfish in S1's finale
No problem, at least you're not typing like you're having a stroke or something (Ik, happened to me too, eheh...).
Howe's had walls, formula, and a greenhouse.
Boom. That's it. That's why I think she left them in a fairly good place to pass the ZA in.
Also, Jane killing herself (and I know this sounds silly) meant that the supplies left (the half the family didn't steal) should be more than enough for Clem, since with Jane out of the way, one less mouth to feed! Yay?!
Because like millions of people before her and I am sure millions after her..no one really thinks it will happen to them. I have written about the Jane ending and why it works...the fact that even in modern society up to 23% o pregnant women face prenatal depression....couple that with no real support mechanism...the idea that in a few months time the hunting and food gathering would be up to an 11 year old. The possibility of complications...no medical help should it happen. Still birth and the walker baby fear. Facing a future where there would be 2 walker attractors going off. Loss of all her family...guilt of putting Clem through more. It does add up. I am not condoning suicide...but there are a lot of factors that go into the decision. Even in the real world suicide happens more often than you would think with expecting mothers.
So sure you can just say...she was a coward...if you are so inclined. Or you could actually think about the situation.
Really? You don't say.
Objectively speaking, Jane was never really guardian/parent material to begin with.
[insert Capital V Straight outta Savannah gif]
But she wasn't, PERIOD. She took the cowards way out. In the end her "level-headedness" and survival instincts didn't amount to anything except to mask how broken and tortured she really was. She was too depressed and guilty to even live with herself or anyone else anymore, she was a failure as a guardian and selfish even until her final act in life.
Because her modus operandi was leaving kids behind to die, and she showed up without AJ which made Kenny believe that she had just murdered a baby boy. You really think that Kenny would have snapped if she hadn't pulled that little stunt? Hell no, Jane knew EXACTLY what she was doing and that was provoking a deadly fight so that she could get Kenny out of the way. She doesn't tell the truth even when Kenny has the upperhand and she's about to be killed, she doesn't flee despite Clem being able to get in between them and tell her to run away, she puts her knife away just to incite Kenny into charging her (if she was really scared for her life she would've left and/or kept the knife in her hands until things cooled off), and pursues Kenny outside with killing intent even after she slices his stomach and he retreats outside.
Also, Kenny did not kill her for "lolz" since it is clear how guilty and messed up he feels about it afterwards. In fact, murdering Jane really made him second guess a lot of his behavior. He doesn't even trust himself after that so you can't say he did it for "lolz" or even enjoyed it, he acted out of rage and grief for what he believed was a murdered infant.
Nah I'm just fine, thanks. I'll say whatever I want to you if you lie and defame Kenny like you are.
That was still not a conscious decision to leave the kids, unlike Jane. Are you saying that every person who dies from not having a seatbelt on is a reckless fucking moron? No dude, mistakes happen all the time but you're acting like Kenny is this horrible stupid man for the seatbelt mistake. He obviously didn't think they'd crash, considering there's no traffic or pedestrians nowadays. He died from an unfortunate mistake.
I let Kenny kill Jane, but I still really liked her and her relationship with Clem.
The way she was depicted in the flashback conveyed that she was an irresponsible guardian. But S3!Jane was very out of character.... in my mind both the Janes are two different people.
Eh...I'd probably put Christa about Kenny, to be honest.
It was selfish, sure. But nothing you just listed is worse than leaving Clem after making her kill Kenny and airing herself as the better protector. She could have at least tried to find a better group for the kids before taking herself out.
Probably because she's pure now. Selfishness, Pragmatism, and Death are all products of Black, after all.
At least your being civil about this, which is more than I could say for some. It almost makes me glad that telltale killed off both Jane and Kenny. Even though I actually like both characters, all the internet bickering about who had the "moral high ground" isn't worth it. Now that we're done with both of them maybe these threads will appear less frequently.
Are you simply not reading the response that he gave you, or are you just refusing to acknowledge the points that he made?
The walls weren't safe enough. Troy permanently broke the loading bay door, there was a walker break-in even when Carver and his whole community was still there fixing the place up, the herd completely rolls over the place with hardly any trouble, and the family from the Jane ending is able to break in and steal half of their entire food stores. It was not sturdy enough, it was too big for two people to maintain alone, and it was a giant target just sitting there.
The formula was nearly all gone by the time Jane left the kids behind to rot. The family always takes half of the food stores as I already said.
They were only there for a few weeks so realistically they wouldn't have been able to actually harvest anything from the greenhouse in that time. And it's not exactly viable for Clem and AJ to wait around the place by themselves for some beans to sprout, now is it?
I'd put Christa on first place, myself.
A shame really, I consider her to be an admirable guardian, and yet she receives little to no credit and is promptly forgotten.
Clem is still using a lot of her teachings so she couldn't have been that bad.
double post
And again.
You will not see me disagreeing with you that what Jane did was selfish and cowardly. I already gave you this point, you're right, Kenny managed to keep them alive for 2 years, although I suspect for scene physics convenience.
Yes, and I "believe" in a god that tells me that murdering people is what's right. Since I believe it's the truth, I cannot be held accountable for murdering people. /s
What Kenny believed doesn't mean shit, he had no factual evidence that Jane murdered the baby (and guess, what, spoiler alert: she didn't) and she even tells him it was all an accident.
Kenny killed someone based on assumption. He followed his baser whims and did something monstrous. He has to be held accountable for that, and it shows that you're biased in this aspect for refusing to see this.
I don't remember asking you for an analysis on Kenny vs Jane. I asked you for Kenny's reasons for killing Jane. And you responded as expected. He assumed something (which was not true) and murdered someone for it. That's what is being debated here.
Hm, really? All I remember Kenny doing after he murders Jane was chanting on how terrible she was, how he was justified, how he was "protecting us" by killing her, and on, and on, and on. That does not smell like regret.
Of course, not supporting Kenny and presenting a different prespective from yours is lying and difamation.
Of course it wasn't. Since when is being reckless a conscient action? I'm arguing that Kenny was reckless and basically cause the crash because he left Clem unattended. I'm not saying that he left Clementine unattended and cause the car crash because he wanted. Lol.
No, I'm saying that leaving a 13 year old unattended while driving in high velocity for the first time in a icy road is reckless and moronish.
Yeah but its Jane, everyone's favorite lone wolf survivalist, you'd think that she would not even risk getting pregnant, and then even if she did, try some sort of abortion rather than deciding its time to just die.
Um, since the alternative would be for them two to be out on the road, without food or formula, yes, I think leaving them at Howe's was an assurance that they'd be safer than anywhere else.
And, by the way, babies sleep a lot, I'm sure Clem would have the time to water the plants!
And, yes, there is always the risk of someone breaking in. But out on the road, the risk to find bandits is just as high, if not higher. Being at Howe's is arguably better.
I'm under the impression that Jane specifically says "took half our food". I might be mistaken.