What kind of Joker relationship do you want?
I just watched the Anthony Ingruber interview where he talks about John Doe's relationship with Bruce. He says that depending on our choices we can get "the traditional psychotic clown prince Joker" or "the new buddy Joker". Which relationship do you want and why?
I think that John becoming the sinister Joker is his destiny, similar to Harvey Dent becoming Two Face which is why I also let him become burned. I'm mostly leaning towards having a villainous relationship also because I think it would be more interesting.
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I'm going with 'the new buddy' model of Joker. Not only is it something I haven't experienced before, which I'm fond of, it also makes TellTale's job of portraying the character easier. I'm fairly familiar with the Batman Universe. Creating a Joker that still feels original or 'evil enough' would be a daunting task. From the deeply personal things that Joker has committed against Barbara Gordon and Jason Todd, to the simply brutal things that he's done against random people in various versions ( including flaying a man and pushing him on a stage for having Harley Quinn as a dancer at his club ) - it'd be so difficult to find a version of that to impress me.
I am going to give them a shot at it in a new save, because thus far the writing team has done little to disappoint me. As for Harvey Dent - Harvey was ' two-faced ' in this version of TellTale before even interacting with Penguin if I'm honest. The way he pushed me into meeting with Falcone, and how he interacted with Falcone... it wasn't the pristine 'white knight' of the comics that became Two Face. He latched to Bruce while it was popular to do so, and distanced himself from everything but his money later on.... I still saved him. But he was a drugged, unarmed and untrained man about to get his head smashed whereas Catwoman went 1 v 1 with Batman. She could've handled a couple of thugs with guns. From the bar-fight interaction with her, fights like those are just like Tuesday to her. Realistically, in a non-telltale verse, Batman would've had time for both. In the time we were helping Harvey to his feet like saving a princess from a castle, we could've bailed Selena out.
Now that's a very difficult question.
I can see why you would say it would be more interesting for him to be the arch-nemesis we always had. One of the many things I love about Batman and Joker dynamic is how similar they are despite their differences. Such that no one will ever be able to understand them as well as they understand each other. They are the sons of Gotham, two alternatives following a specific bad day. Joker is no more than a ''what if'' Batman had adopted an alternative philosophy. What if instead of coping through obsessive self control he just let it all out. What if his madness, the madness he already has, was in a different form. Now they have different philosophical stances and that's a big part of their relationship, that's why they clash, that's why it's so hard for them to live without the other. They feel very lonely.
So that ''opposition'' between them, that drives one to serve Justice and the other to support chaos is extremely important in their relationship. It's confusing for the both of them to have the one man who's the most capable of understanding them as their enemy. They fall in ''love'' ( in a metaphorical way ) with the dances that they share. They don't feel ''lonely'' with each other, but they are deeply irritated by the ''what they could have been'' and they ''hate'' each other for it.
Also they simply one prove they are right to the other and it's as hard for Batman as it is pleasurable for Joker. I think any feelings they have for the other is mutual though.
It's a beautiful, fascinating relationship they have. They are doomed to give each others new challenges, to have self doubts about their own ''sanity'' ( in the case of Batman especially ), to reconsider their own moral codes or lack thereoff and be in this whole philosophical battle/love story until one kicks the bucket... and then they are completely alone.
Sure in an artistic perspective it's brillant, it's grandiose, it's exactly as fucked up as it should be. However, have you seen many Joker and Batman being genuine friends in many occasions ? I think it might be ''less'' interesting ''overall'' but it's great because it's soooo original, it's refreshing and we still don't ''really believe it''. So it makes us think. Truly the intrigue is here. I have seen many say ''maybe he is playing Bruce afterall, and Harley truly is his sidekick'' , ''maybe he will be upset about X and POOF he'll go full Joker'' and since I remember what he said in season 1 episode 5 about Batman ( I went as Bruce but I saw videos ), I, myself, have my reserves. But what if he isn't lying ?
You have the occasion to have your ''soulmate'' as a friend rather than an enemy. If you truly can, if it's a possibly, then, yes, I believe I would do it. Mostly out of curiosity... because to take such risk that is changing such a profound relationship takes balls and I wish for Telltale to succeed.
Sure there wouldn't be the whole tragic part of the relationship when Bruce lose yet another friend or whatever is your relationship with him at the moment, but we would finally see what happens when the two deeply connected and interdependant individuals actually work alongside. And I'd say it would be nice to see it, if only once.
But to be honest I don't think the ''different'' Jokers would be that drastically different from one another. They might be ''different'' but I don't think you'll have a friend or an enemy kind of situation. I know nothing though so... I just answered your question as you asked it.
Also to be honest I just love John Doe, he is my main man and I am gonna protect him. I did the same with Harvey back in season 1. Guess my Bruce has something for mentally unstable friends... Maybe he can relate ?
Definitely the buddy relationship! Tried that with Harvey and we know how that turned out.. I'm seriously intrigued to see something a bit different with this John Doe Joker, Telltale's own take on things. Would be and already has been refreshing. I love the character, the suspense is killing me. And these previous comments actually gave me something to think about.. I've been annoyed before when they say Bruce is drawn to the mentally unstable. Maybe I've been the one in denial.
This type of relationship.
So at first you want to fight each other to the death over the adoration of your friends but then end up hostages together and end up best friends through an extreme case of stockholm syndrome?
Well first off i hope that the choice is more nuanced than a) Choose for John to be good and b) Choose for John to be evil. I would love a nuanced relationship that takes into account many choices and factors.
You have an interesting way to phrase it; the opportunity for our "soulmate" to be our friend instead of an enemy. Problem is, I dont feel particularly close with John, let alone enough to claim him as my soulmate. He is wacky and fun, sure, but we dont know him, not really. At this point he is literally some crazy guy who wont leave Bruce alone.
It may very well be worth it to see them working together for a change. I just hope the relationship develops naturally.
I am gonna stick with classics and I want him as antagonist.
He is a physcopath, genious, sociopath, manipulative, funny and more importantly he has a reputation a.k.a "The Clown Prince of Crime". He is a perfect antagonist and Telltale should stick to it as well.
Somethin' like that.
Buddy joker. I actually want and would want to be friends with this version of Joker. Also because it's the closest I'll probably get to a Bats who likes guys coughGordoncough.
That said, I can't actually do anything about until/unless I get the game.
I redeemed Harvey in my walkthrough and prevented him from becoming Two-Face
This however I don't know. My aim in this is pretty much to kill him since I've read every version of Joker and what he will do in Batman's future, but after hearing that you can shape John Doe into becoming a different kind of Joker could actually be interesting. In fact, if there is a possibility I would very much like an anti-hero Joker. Hell, I would actually pit Joker against Amanda Waller if I have to
If one thing I've notice is that he won't stop being psychotic like that. So if possible I would like to lessen Gotham's problems by making Joker an anti-hero. So maybe yeah. Buddy Joker I will give a shot and hopefully I would pit him against Waller
It's hard to tell if John Doe's little "flashes of humanity" are sincere, or calculated attempts to manipulate Bruce (and us) into doing what he wants. That also opens up the question of just how crazy John Doe really is at the moment. Are we looking at the actions of a sociopath, or a psychopath? I stumbled across this interesting little quote elsewhere online:
https://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/psychopath/psychopath-vs-sociopath-what-s-the-difference/
So, if we're to take all that into account, maybe we're looking at a version of the Joker who is still perfectly capable of murdering people on a whim, but can possibly develop a relationship on the side, as he seems to be doing with Bruce Wayne in the game.
You didnt prevent it. It will still happen because of the drug that Vicky injected to him. You just slowed down the process.
Also, you can see the pic about episode 5 which Joker fights with Batman so I dont think you can make him at least half-protagonist.
I will not give up on Harvey. I will do whatever it takes to prevent Two-Face from emerging
We'll just see how the game will handle with John Doe
I admire the spirit and I hate to admit, but it is not something that you can prevent anymore.
This is probably going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I don't really like the "psychotic clown prince Joker". The shiny over-the-top villains in ridiculous costumes in general is what turned me off from Batman in the first place. I did not expect to like this game too, but Telltale went for a more realistic angle. It's still has the Batman's charm, but the story and the villains are more or less believable (even when they do have funny costumes). And, of course, the game's focus on Bruce and not on Batman helps too. Unexpectedly, this game game became my second favorite Telltale game, so obviously I would like to keep what made it so good, and this means it's "buddy Joker" for me. No clowns please.
John Doe will become Joker inevitably though I'm digging the friendship. It's something fresh.
Will you go out of your way to preserve the friendship or will you burn the bridge when the time comes?
Preserve of course. Friends for lyfe(Until he gets corrupted and turns on me
) but I won't be the one to burn the bridge.
I've really enjoyed how dynamic our relationship with John Doe is in Season 2. I didn't want to be near him in Season 1. I half wondered if our ' chance meeting ' was entirely set up by him with those two men jumping Bruce so he could introduce himself on prearranged terms. I have to commend the writers in creating circumstances that make you question what you think you know about these characters.
I can't even begin to imagine what they might have in store for us as far as how far this friendship can go, but I'm eager to find out. I'm hoping that the changes in Joker won't be as simple as if he's your buddy, it's more like the Mark Hamill version of Joker and if he's your nemesis, he's more like Heath Ledger.
Truem after all the Joker games I wanted something fresh. I didn't expect the writers to make him interesting like this so kudos to them. The way Joker described the "Pact" in the church they seem to want Bruce on their side. Into "the fold" and John's already in on it. The trailer we saw was interesting as we Bruce as a thug undercover. Perhaps this can extend the friendship even more though it will be broken once we're not undercover. There's only so much time you can be undercover until it's pointless.
Ended up going the "buddy" route with John this episode.... no regrets. Loved how he:
I also couldn't bring myself to flirt with Harley in the elevator. John is growing on me, like mold. I cant even describe it.
My Bruce has a weird relation with John. On one hand, he is greatly unnerved with him and his mentality. On the other hand, he feels a lot of sympathy for him. He knows that he is a criminal and dangerous, but he has a weird innocence and is like a child who needs a proper guidance.
In my story, Bruce genuinely wants to help him, but he is also conflicted by the fact that he has to do things that goes against his morals in order to accomplish that. In the meantime, Bruce is preparing for the day that he breaks John's trust and they become enemies.
You can't "redeem" Harvey. His story is like a Greek tragedy; it's just written in the stars, even if you prevent his disfigurement.
However, what you CAN control is your personal relationship with Harvey; whether you have a permanent falling out, or remain friends to the bitter end. I think Harvey's final determinant dialogue to Bruce in the mansion while the police are taking him away ("Stop Penguin" scenario) is meant to imply where the two of them ultimately stand. In my scenario, Harvey's behavior was more melancholic and resigned. It was reminiscent of one of my personal favorite scenes from the animated show:
It would be interesting if we had a similar outcome with the Joker.
To be honest I only stayed silent though John still gets jealous.
Well I have 2 saves but in my main one I want it to basically be alternate to the Batman we all know. I've been playing Batman games with the Joker as a crazy villain for a long time and I'm kind of tired of it. It's also the reason I really like the TV show Gotham. It is its own thing entirely and that makes it a must-see for me
Forget Harley/Catwomen/Avesta - I feel like John should be Bruce's love interest haha.
It would be sick if John was the one to help us take down The Pact. Having him as an ally to Batman would just be the coolest thing Telltale could do. He's such a great character, and Anthony is doing one hell of a job with him (Telltale too.) He's shaping up to be one of my favourite portrayals.
Friends for life!
So last season when I played through I firmly believed that John Doe knew that Bruce was secretly Batman.
But after playing episodes one and two of Enemy Within, I don't think John actually does know that Bruce and Batman are one and the same.
What do you guys think?
I think he still knows Bruce is Batman.
He goes to the funeral basically knowing that Riddler killed Bruce's friend and gives Bruce a lead to getting closer to Riddler. I see John giving the lead as him using Batman to take down Riddler, just like he did in s1e4 when he sends Bruce on Vicki's trail.
Also in s2e2, he is talking to Willy about Batman and Bruce. John orchestrated the uncomfortable situation and it seems like he did it to fuck with Bruce and see how he reacts.
He is being very coy about this. But how else are we supposed to interpret what he says to Bruce in the asylum ?
"I know what you really are".
I'm not sure what he is going to do with this.
Yeah, there's a lot that points to John knowing Bruce is Batman; like the tips, the Willy situation, and especially the "I know what you really are statement."
I really did come into season two thinking he knew who Bruce was, but it just doesn't add up to me anymore. Why would he invite Bruce along to join the Pact if he knew he was Batman?
Plus when you talk to John in his room at the train station he says something about wanting to meet Batman someday.
Honestly I hope he does know Bruce is Batman, but I'm just not sure anymore.
I think part of the reason John insists we are such good friends is because he does know, and he wants Batman to have sympathy for him when everything goes to hell.
I hadn't thought about that, but that's a definite possibility.
I still think he's playing dumb with everyone and manipulates them. That's what he showed in the first season. Except if they scrapped the idea, which will be weird
Absolutely. He's got that delicious athletic looking booty too.
hmmmmm
Thank you for this.