YEAH ! LET US USE THE GUN AND SHOOT RANDOMLY AT THINGS MORE !
When will we see a sam & max fps ? ^^
(i know no one cares, but that was my first post on that forum, and i'm so happy i think evreryone should know)
I'd actually like to see more objects react to being shot at. It's downright bizzarre to stand in a room, shooting everything in sight, and have absolutely no effect on anything. It's understandable that we're not dealing with real-time destructable environments, but it seems a bit odd that there aren't a few more silly animations or lines activated by shooting stuff.
that beaing said, in every adventure games i played where you had any weapon (i haven't play a whole lot, except the old lucasart's ones tho), these weapons usually weren't used much.... So i guess it's perfectly normal not to use much sam's gun ^^
But according to Sam & Max's characters, i think it could be fun to have them shoot a little more ^^
Maybe more mini games like the driving sequences would do ^^?
I'd actually like to see more objects react to being shot at. It's downright bizzarre to stand in a room, shooting everything in sight, and have absolutely no effect on anything. It's understandable that we're not dealing with real-time destructable environments, but it seems a bit odd that there aren't a few more silly animations or lines activated by shooting stuff.
I agree. I'd also like some more reactions to different object (I don't expect fifty responses to every object, but a little more than "Nah", and "No dice.")
yes, the game was easy, but I guess thy can't be much more challenging in those short episodes. In other adventures, you are carrying a lot of things with you for a very long time, without having a clou on where to use them. And in such a short game, you can simply try to use every item of the few you've got everywhere. It dosen't bother me that the games are so easy, because they are still very entertaining. Harder puzzles would be even harder for me I guess, because my english is not that good
This episode is much better. Thats all I have to say.
Except that if more puzzles like the one with the cake and the one with the cow pie were in the game it would not only be more hilarious but more challenging. These were the best moments of the game for me and the most enjoyable I have had since the days of monkey island. Sniff.
PS The rat game was rubbish. I want to whack them with something. Please dont make us drive down that street again in the next episode. Or ever again.
have to say ep2 is a big improvement over ep1, mainly due to the dialogue being a lot snappier and funnier. Also as before the graphics and camera panning do look really nice.
However the world is too claustrophobic and, partly as a result, the puzzles are much too easy and linear (I was shocked to realise 3 hours into playing I had finished the game!). As a result it really seems more like an interactive movie which while mildly entertaining, doesnt have as much staying power as say pretty much all the lucasarts games (sorry! i'm sure telltale are getting a bit tired of the comparisons now!)
Some people seem to suggest that harder puzzles would alienate newcomers to the adventure genre. But it seems that most people buying sam & max, are doing so because they liked the original, and so are probably well-versed in the language of adventure games. And it seems a free option to have harder puzzles if you provide some form of hint system, which isn't too easy to access and doesn't totally feel like cheating.
It might also be interesting to note that part of the reason Lucasarts Grim Fandango was so good (imo) was that they had a (scripting engine) which meant they could concentrate on the game play and create complicated environments quite easily...
I also think the game was a bit easier (though still great), but the reason could be that I had the extremely bad lack of having an extremely good luck and solving many of the puzzles by accident, for example:
1.
By accident, the first thing I disguised the cow to was to a chef (I haven't thought of it or anything - just by accident clicked the lampshade on it and chose a reply to Mr. Featherly by random)
2.
I randomly picked the color green for Hugh Bliss and so had the correct picture to show to Sybil
3.
In the beginning, I just started shooting the rats' car and in my third shot they fell down the drain. I didn't even have time to notice that my shooting gets them to move around
The one good point about knowing how to solve everything is that you get to mess it up and explode all the options before you do it correctly. That being said, harder wouldn't hurt ... wouldn't hurt at all. If you're worried about alienating specific demographics why not try a difficulty system?
I understand all of the arguments being presented here, and agree and disagree on some points; while easy puzzles might be a little agitating to those of us who grew up playing these classic adventure games, those with more difficult puzzles don't amount to anything if the story isn't compelling.
A year or so ago, I saw a new (maybe 5 years by this time) adventure game; it had rave reviews on the box, comparing it to Monkey Island, and for $5 I figured I couldn't go wrong.
Well, while some of the puzzles had a resemblance to those being reminisced about, the bulk were utter rubbish, I found myself bored by the story line and hating the main character.
The only reason I continued to play it to completion was to give it a fair shake. Needless to say I took the store up on their unconditional return policy.
If the story isn't good, there's no reason to continue playing.
(Sorry if I'm repeating what other people said, I only read through the first four or five pages)
Much like Josh above me, I only read the first few pages of this thread (5 or 6) instead of the entire thread (work is getting in the way of entertainment *pfft*) so I'm sure that someone has said something similar to what I'm about to say, but I just wanted to throw it out there.
The Ep 1 and 2 are very frustrating for me to play. Why? It is waaay to easy. The game almost seems like a chore because I see the solution a mile away, so I just go through the motions to complete it. The first episode took me two days to complete, this one? 3.5 hours on a hungover Sunday afternoon. Much like many have said before, I don't understand why a game has to be dumbed down to include "everyone". Did my beloved Monkey Island dumb it down??! No. And that did pretty well. Do game manufacturers make Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid easier so 3D-phobes like me can attempt to play? No and I'm glad. I love watching my friends go through them, it's like watching a good action movie. Personally, I wouldn't want manufacturers to make the games easier for my friends so the likes of me can attempt to play those games (and ultimately give up interest).
Myst did fantastic in the profit department. So did another favorite of mine, the Longest Journey. Both of those were very challenging and entertaining on diffferent levels. Why is there suddenly this mindset that we need to take the game that a LOT of people loved before and make it easier for newbies. There are plenty of other games (such as online point 'n click games) that newbies can play in order to train their mindset. I understand that making money is key in game manufacturing, but looking at the success of Longest Journey, it is clear that adventure games released in the past 5 years can make a lot of money being targeted to veteran adventure gamers. And speaking of new players, if people are interested enough in a game, they will have motivation to learn a new skill (the adventure-game-mindset-skill). There is no reason that Sam and Max, a veteran game, has to turn into some kind of "introduction" to the genre. That's absurd. I've been waiting forever for this game, only to point 'n click my way through obvious puzzles.
HOWEVER, as someone very intelligently put before me, maybe this will open up the market for other game designers to focus in on a more target audience and release challenging games. It's just disapointing that Sam and Max has to be sacrificed as the stepping stone.
Almost all games have an 'introduction' period, from FPSs to RPGs to RTSs - and most adventure games have a fairly gentle / easy beginning so new people to the genre can get themselves familiar with the mechanics of the game before hitting too many offputting stumpers-of-puzzles.
Telltale have said that the season will increase in difficulty as it progresses.
And, as been said many times before story, humour, characters WAY outweigh puzzle difficulty (which is pretty subjective anyway) in giving a rich gaming experience.
For some, perhaps you, puzzles are the most important aspect of adventure games, but I think you'll actually find most AGers would rank story and characters above puzzles. Sam & Max have character in oodles, the story is picking up steam, and it's been said the puzzles will get harder. Hard to see what the complaining's all about, really.
Do game manufacturers make Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid easier so 3D-phobes like me can attempt to play? No and I'm glad.
...
There is no reason that Sam and Max, a veteran game, has to turn into some kind of "introduction" to the genre. That's absurd. I've been waiting forever for this game, only to point 'n click my way through obvious puzzles.
Though I haven't played these games, I'm willing to bet that the beginning levels/areas are much easier than the later ones, the beginning levels helping to ease you in to the strategy/logic/controls involved in the gameplay--even though most of these games are sequels bought by people who played the games earlier, game developers still do it, because they consider it foolhardy to make games otherwise. Can you imagine somebody buying Halo 3 for the first time, only realizing that they should have bought and played Halo 1 and 2 first to get accustomed to the gameplay and difficulty?
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Telltale have said that the season will increase in difficulty as it progresses.
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I didn't find E2 any harder than E1. It was even a little bit easier in my opinion.
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And, as been said many times before story, humour, characters WAY outweigh puzzle difficulty (which is pretty subjective anyway) in giving a rich gaming experience.
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You need to take care of all aspects to make a very good game. If one aspects sucks it mostly pulls down the others as well and so the overall experience.
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Sam & Max have character in oodles, the story is picking up steam
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And so the frustration because as soon as you're feeling well in the game and enjoying things, it's already over again which leaves you waiting for another month...*episodic rambling*
My dig is the fact that Ep2 didnt feel complete. As soon as I thought something else was going to happen, game complete which left me a little 'wtf'! It was very easy, more so than EP1. You need to take on board that most of us playing Sam n Max are hardcore adventure gamers and we can take a harder throw
To be honest, I would have skipped the rest of the season after episode 1 if I hadn´t paid for it already.
Also, I totally lost my interest in ep 2 after it crashed, haven´t picked it up again in a couple of days. A big part of my loss of interest is that I might as well not play it since there´s actually none of the actual playing. I got through a couple of so obvious puzzles that I actually felt embarassed for Telltale.
I am sorry, this might sound a bit harsh, probably because it is, but I don´t quite appreciate the fact that the veteran fan base kept the game alive for thirteen years, spread word of mouth when the game was released and then the game is targeted to newcomers and dumbed down. Do I really have to go through 4 episodes of "playing" before I actually get to playing? If that´s even the case, probably episode 5´s description of being "pretty challenging" means that it´s aimed at 10 year olds, unlike the previous ones which which were aimed for 7 year olds.
Yeah episode 2 was clearly easier than episode 1..so before culture shock came out they seriously thought this was an acceptable level of difficulty.. dan connors clearly stated that sam & max would be for "seasoned adventure gamers" unlike bone.. Well I'm left scratching my head on that one, because it definitely isn't at the moment. Sam & Max fans aren't gonna be troubled in the slightest. Episode 5 is gonna be more challenging as they said, but I feel episode 3 and 4 will be the same difficulty level as 1 and 2, because they'd already completed the design of those episodes before culture shock came out...
I am sorry, this might sound a bit harsh, probably because it is, but I don´t quite appreciate the fact that the veteran fan base kept the game alive for thirteen years, spread word of mouth when the game was released and then the game is targeted to newcomers and dumbed down.
I got stuck more in ep2 than ep 1, though they're pretty similar in length and difficulty as far as I'm concerned.
well even if they are similar you couldn't say their was "an increase" in difficulty.. I dont think telltale were ever gonna increase the difficulty as they went.. they just responded to feedback with a more challenging episode 5.. thats the flaw of the 6 episode season they had to work on them so far in advance they left little room for anything to be changed..they already had 4 episodes on their way to be finished when culture shock came out
Assuming, of course, that they share your belief that the difficulty of episodes 1 and 2 was a "flaw." It's quite possible that Telltale knew about the want for difficulty (after all, it was a subject brought up well before the season started) and made the games like they did intentionally. "Listening" to the fans is not the same as "Doing everything they say." Also how would you know that their "increase difficulty as the season progresses" plan was only thought of after all the complaints came in?
well even if they are similar you couldn't say their was "an increase" in difficulty.. I dont think telltale were ever gonna increase the difficulty as they went..
Yeah, we know your take on it. If 1 & 2 are about the same, 3 & 4 are both harder (but equal to each other in difficulty) and 5 & 6 harder yet (and equal to each other), then that is "increasing in difficulty as the season progresses" as far as I'm concerned.
I have no reason not to believe what we've been told. And even if the difficulty does stay about where it is now across the next 4 episodes, I don't mind, so long as the writing, humour and plot all continue to entertain me.
Assuming, of course, that they share your belief that the difficulty of episodes 1 and 2 was a "flaw." It's quite possible that Telltale knew about the want for difficulty (after all, it was a subject brought up well before the season started) and made the games like they did intentionally. "Listening" to the fans is not the same as "Doing everything they say." Also how would you know that their "increase difficulty as the season progresses" plan was only thought of after all the complaints came in?
I'm not assuming its a flaw i'm saying its a flaw because I believe it is..every review i've read says it is, people who i've got to play the game says it is, and all the calls for an increase in difficulty.. I'm sure they did make that difficulty level intentionally.. I think they were trying to attract other people..and as kunkku says those that have been waiting 13 years and are hit the road fans are gonna be disappointed with the puzzles. My theory of the increase in difficulty as the season progresses plan is because episode 2 is easier than episode 1..
I dont think telltale were ever gonna increase the difficulty as they went.. they just responded to feedback with a more challenging episode 5.. thats the flaw of the 6 episode season they had to work on them so far in advance they left little room for anything to be changed..they already had 4 episodes on their way to be finished when culture shock came out
What you seem to be saying here is that if Telltale would have in fact been able to hear all the feedback for episode 1 before they even started episode 2 it might have resulted in a much more difficult game, and what I'm saying is, that's not necessarily true. I think it's more probable that Telltale knew exactly what they were doing when they made the first two (or three, or six) episodes how they were. I mean the argument that they had no idea people wanted a harder game holds no water. Ever since Out from Boneville was released everybody was telling them how Sam & Max needs to be a lot harder, how it needs to be aimed more at seasoned adventure gamers. Culture Shock and Situation Comedy were the response. What that means is that they're making the games like they are for a reason. It may not be a reason that everyone agrees with (and maybe they're wrong?), but I think it should be obvious that they're not doing it specifically to piss off the fans, and they're not doing it because they're clueless.
So yes, while I think fan feedback is valued by Telltale and even affects the games, I don't think it affects them quite so harshly as you might think. If it did, then that would mean the team's vision couldn't have been very solid, and that would really be bad news.
And like JP (or someone) said, not all Hit the Road fans are going to be disappointed by the puzzles, only the ones that consider puzzle difficulty to be as integral to a Sam & Max game as you do. A lot do, but a lot don't. Some even prefer Telltale's approach, though they're not necessarily regulars of this forum. There are also people like yourself who don't like puzzles but are buying the games anyway. Telltale's not oblivious to that.
Assuming, of course, that they share your belief that the difficulty of episodes 1 and 2 was a "flaw." It's quite possible that Telltale knew about the want for difficulty (after all, it was a subject brought up well before the season started) and made the games like they did intentionally. "Listening" to the fans is not the same as "Doing everything they say." Also how would you know that their "increase difficulty as the season progresses" plan was only thought of after all the complaints came in?
Well, they definitely should think it´s a flaw if they lose customers because the game is too easy. Hopefully, they won´t (I am sure they hope so), but I am not nearly as much excited about the season 2 as I was before season 1 and that´s not a good sign, actually I lost a lot of my interest just because I felt ep 1 was playing itself. So, it definitely can´t be a good sign if people feel/felt a little let down after 1 episode and the second one didn´t bring much of an improvement. I LOST INTEREST WHILE PLAYING EPISODE 2! I could have finished the episode 2 if the game wouldn´t have crashed, btu after such a lousy puzzle I felt like it wasn´t worth it. Now, guess if I am going to spread the word if this early I´ve lost a lot of interest? I am sure I won´t, I feel like I shouldn´t bother.
Now, the real question is, is it worth it to add a difficult level selector for hardcore gamers and actually make the games enjoyable for newcomers and veterans? Does it take too many workhours? Does it cost too much? Are they going to lose customers because of the easiness or are the people just going to bitch but still keep on buying? Will the word of mouth spread without hardcore gamers or has it ever even spread? Are the gametap users only ones worth catering? Is the hardcore fanbase even worth mentioning (size wise)? Should they bother?
I don´t expect answers from Telltale, but I know that they know them and make their decisions based on them and that´s fine, it´s their game. But am I going to follow to season 2 if I am not completely satisfied with season 1 which has the potential to be a great game but somehow it seems it will be fucked up because Telltale doesn´t have the balls to make games difficult enough? I know the answer to that question, and I can even tell it: I have to think twice, at least. Probably not, though and that´s a shame. Now, one lost customer doesn´t even count and no one gives a shit about me, but I am sure that somewhere there must be at least one person who shares my opinions. THAT´S TWO, ALREADY, YOU SHOULD BE SCARED TELLTALE!!!!
What you seem to be saying here is that if Telltale would have in fact been able to hear all the feedback for episode 1 before they even started episode 2 it might have resulted in a much more difficult game, and what I'm saying is, that's not necessarily true.
why did Brendan say in his blog that episode 5 was more challenging then? If they didn't believe in a more difficult game they wouldn't make episode 5 harder.
Ever since Out from Boneville was released everybody was telling them how Sam & Max needs to be a lot harder, how it needs to be aimed more at seasoned adventure gamers. Culture Shock and Situation Comedy were the response. What that means is that they're making the games like they are for a reason. It may not be a reason that everyone agrees with (and maybe they're wrong?), but I think it should be obvious that they're not doing it specifically to piss off the fans, and they're not doing it because they're clueless.
I agree with you, I understand their are reasons behind it, I'm just saying I don't like it personally, others may..
So yes, while I think fan feedback is valued by Telltale and even affects the games, I don't think it affects them quite so harshly as you might think.
Don't you think there was a huge improvement from the first bone game to the great cow race? I thought there was, and a lot of it seemed to be in response to the feedback to their customers.. We are not talking HUGE changes here..we are talking about improving any problems..
And like JP (or someone) said, not all Hit the Road fans are going to be disappointed by the puzzles, only the ones that held puzzle difficulty to be as integral to a Sam & Max game as you do. A lot do, but a lot don't.
I don't think puzzle difficulty is the be all and end all.. I just think its an important ingredient in the mix..and done correctly it can enhance other facets of a game(immersion, exploration) The only reason I'm harping on this difficulty thing is because I'm very happy with all the other aspects of these new sam and max games.. I don't want a super difficult game or mind numbing puzzles..just some more challenges than these games give us.. I mean everything is so telegraphed, the characters basically tell you exactly what you have to do..
It's easy to say that they're losing more customers than they're gaining simply because you believe and/or want it to be so, but the proof is in the sales, which neither of us are privy to. Maybe in your assessment making a more welcoming game (which, by the way, is in NO WAY compromising the license, but only compromising the game's status as a traditional graphic adventure game, which it has never claimed to be) is lacking in "balls," but one thing I think we can both agree on is that it's hard for a company to make games if they're bankrupt.
'Course, I don't know sales is the reason the puzzles are the way they are. I'm sure it's a variety of factors. Maybe Telltale doesn't think hard puzzles is necessarily good design, and maybe they're right?
It's easy to say that they're losing more customers than they're gaining simply because you believe and/or want it to be so, but the proof is in the sales, which neither of us are privy to. Maybe in your assessment making a more welcoming game (which, by the way, is in NO WAY compromising the license, but only compromising the game's status as a traditional graphic adventure game, which it has never claimed to be) is lacking in "balls," but one thing I think we can both agree on is that it's hard for a company to make games if their bankrupt.
'Course, I don't know sales is the reason the puzzles are the way they are. I'm sure it's a variety of factors. Maybe Telltale doesn't think hard puzzles is necessarily good design, and maybe they're right?
but what are you actually advocating udvarnoky? you want anyone who doesn't like the difficulty to shut up? are you happy with the puzzle difficulty? maybe telltale like purple elephants flying in the sky? maybe brendan was locked in a closet for too long..but that's not the point.. I'm saying the Sam and Max games would be better with an increased difficulty.. i'm still not sure what you are saying..
why did Brendan say in his blog that episode 5 was more challenging then? If they didn't believe in a more difficult game they wouldn't make episode 5 harder.
Not what I said at all. What I did say was that the fact that they will make later episodes harder (just like making the early episodes easy) was part of a plan, NOT just because complainers demanded it.
Don't you think there was a huge improvement from the first bone game to the great cow race? I thought there was, and a lot of it seemed to be in response to the feedback to their customers.. We are not talking HUGE changes here..we are talking about improving any problems..
Again, you missed my point, but maybe that was my fault. Of course Cow Race was an improvement and Sam & Max could very well see something similar and it could very well be because of fan feedback HOWEVER, fans are not the ones making these games...people whose job it is to make games are. Their decisions are not based on nothing.
I don't think puzzle difficulty is the be all and end all.. I just think its an important ingredient in the mix..and done correctly it can enhance other facets of a game(immersion, exploration)
I want to know how puzzle difficulty (and specifically puzzle difficulty) enhances immersion and exploration. Forcing you to click on things and backtracking through environments doesn't count. Go.
It's easy to say that they're losing more customers than they're gaining simply because you believe and/or want it to be so, but the proof is in the sales, which neither of us are privy to.
'Course, I don't know sales is the reason the puzzles are the way they are. I'm sure it's a variety of factors. Maybe Telltale doesn't think hard puzzles is necessarily good design, and maybe they're right?
Hey, I wasn´t claiming that they will lose anyone (except maybe me)! I just tried to say that they probably know if they´ll lose customers and that it´s their decision how to deal with it (if there´s anything to deal with). I wanted to express my disappoinment and tell that if there won´t be a raise in the difficulty level, I won´t buy.
I dont think telltale were ever gonna increase the difficulty as they went.. they just responded to feedback with a more challenging episode 5.. thats the flaw of the 6 episode season they had to work on them so far in advance they left little room for anything to be changed..they already had 4 episodes on their way to be finished when culture shock came out
I think you're reading way too much of your own beliefs into what Brendan said, which was:
In fact, many of you have already correctly guessed that we aim to gradually increase the difficulty over time, so be patient.
I want to know how puzzle difficulty (and specifically puzzle difficulty) enhances immersion and exploration. Forcing you to click on things and backtracking through environments doesn't count. Go.
In my opinion, puzzle difficulty mostly depends on immersion and exploration. The more objects that are involved in completing a task, the harder it gets. The more combination of different objects, the harder. The bigger the worlds you have to explore and click through, the harder it's going to get. It's ridiculous that going into Bosco's and clicking on the can of shaving cream that's on the table right at the door will segway into that puzzle. It's actually the only thing you can pick up at the store, so where is the challenge? Technically, you don't even have to explore the rest of the store. So that's my take on it. This game was supremely linear w/obvious objects available to you when they were needed (for example the cowpie puzzle - the two objects that you need are right there), you don't need to solve anything to obtain that plate. It's just there in plain sight. So you don't even have to THINK. When there's a cue for you to do something, you know to combine those two objects together because they are the only ones there. There is no exploration or immersion. It just ended up with me having to click on countless objects and hearing the commentary on that object. A lot of times, I knew exactly what I was looking for, so I could just grab that and skip everything else. And in no way am I calling myself an elitist adventure gamer. I still get stuck like all hell in a lot of the free flash-based "escape the room" point 'n click puzzles available on the net.
I'm a huge advocate of the idea that this is a veteran game and it should be targeted towards veteran players. Adventure games that I've paid for before( Myst and the Longest Journey) show that it is possible to sell a lot of games while still maintaining a certain level of difficulty. I understand that in many games there are beginner rounds where you can get used to the game. Why can't we have one here and have the rest of the game be of the expected difficulty? Maybe have the need to combine a couple of objects before leaving the office for the first time? And you can't leave w/out combining those objects. So the new players will get into that Adventure Game mindset. I know some say that they like just to watch the game (much as I like to watch my friends play all those awesome console action games such as Metal Gear Solid), but you gotta understand that most of us are here to solve our way through, not just for the witty dialogue and the storyline (although both are huge contributors to the overall enjoyment of the game). Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of simple point 'n click games that are fun to play just to watch them pan out. May I direct you guys to a japanese site of http://www.3wish.com/ which makes adorable and interesting flash-based point and click games (their "No.5" has a couple of parts to it and I highly recomend). There are SO many games like that, just head on over to lazylaces.com and browse his "point 'n click vault" for free point 'n click games that are just as fun to solve as to look at. But right now we're arguing about the game that seasoned adventure gamers have been dying to get our hands on. Something we PAID for. And we get this???! An intro to the genre, so to speak???! I'm very disapointed with this. I feel like there are other outlets for beginner point and clickers as mentioned above. And no offense, to those that enjoy just "watching" the game, but seasoned gamers are paying to play the game and solve the puzzles, not watch a cartoon. And this is definitely a veteran game that the seasoned gamers have been waiting on forever and the creators know that. It is unfair to us to have to deal with these easy puzzles.
HOWEVER, TO THE GAME DESIGNERS, as much as I'm disapointed w/the puzzle dificulty and the 3D rendering, I am still very impressed by certain elements such as the Home for Ex Child Stars (sorry, don't have the exact name on hand) and the feel of the TV studio. I love love love the feel of those two locales. Very eerie, very creepy, the music at the Home for Ex Child Stars is top notch. Love it. GOOD JOB!
Adventure games that I've paid for before( Myst and the Longest Journey) show that it is possible to sell a lot of games while still maintaining a certain level of difficulty.
Bringing Myst into the conversation is asking for trouble... while there probably is some overlap, I think a lot of the people who are Sam and Max fans absolutely abhor the type of gameplay and puzzle difficulty that is indicative of the Myst games. Even Hero1 has gone on record as saying that he does not find the puzzles in Myst to be fun at all.
I understand that in many games there are beginner rounds where you can get used to the game. Why can't we have one here and have the rest of the game be of the expected difficulty? Maybe have the need to combine a couple of objects before leaving the office for the first time? And you can't leave w/out combining those objects. So the new players will get into that Adventure Game mindset.
Well this game is being released episodically, so we have yet to see what the later rounds of the game have to offer. To say that one easy puzzle in the first room of an episode can be comparable to the beginning rounds of other games is a bit disingenuous--if you take a game like Zelda, Grand Theft Auto or Halo, the easing in of the difficulty really takes a couple of levels/hours until the "expected difficulty is reached."
^ yeah I guess. *pout*. I'm just so disenchanted with the new Sam and Max. I can only hope that they get harder. I...uh...almost wish that they waited and released the entire game at once instead of episodes to somewhat eliminate this lingering doubt about the future of the episodes. Any takers on that position?
Ok, you're right, let's take Myst out of the equation. That was kind of difficult (I want to hear someone who actually passed the third one without hints, jeebus I lasted 2 days on the first three puzzles and gave up). We are still left with the Longest Journey and Monkey Island if you're willing to go that far back. Games that many gamers who've played such games were anticipating and thoroughly enjyoed. Much like Sam and Max. MANY played it before, many were awaiting its comeback, only to encounter this. I just don't understand where this new mindset to introduce the game to beginners is. I'm still going to continue playing all the episodes because I eagerly bought the entire season in anticipation that it would be like Hit the Road, but I really really hope that these two episodes were the introductory period equivalent of a full-length game. It just sucks that we have to wait through these episodes in anticipation of more difficult puzzles.
I just don't understand where this new mindset to introduce the game to beginners is.
If there were as many Adventure Game players as there used to be, LucasArts Sam & max wouldn't have got cancelled. We're a diminishing pool to market to. Telltale needs to introduce new players to the genre. I was about 13 when I started playing adventure games - these days those young 13 year old gamers are playing racing, FPS and the like on their consoles.
Also Telltale need to recapture those guys who are in their 30s, used to play the LucasArts & Sierra adventures 15 years ago, but since getting a job, mortgage, spouse, kids have only used their PC for WORD, XL, email and porn.
It's a fine line to tread, but if Telltale are going to survive, they need to firstly make these non-Adventurers experience the game (as they're doing with GameTap) and not put them off entirely by having them stuck on a very hard puzzle.
That may be hard to take for someone wanting "Hit the Road" style multi-object puzzles, but it's the reality of the marketplace (to paraphrase Mike Nelson).
Comments
I'd actually like to see more objects react to being shot at. It's downright bizzarre to stand in a room, shooting everything in sight, and have absolutely no effect on anything. It's understandable that we're not dealing with real-time destructable environments, but it seems a bit odd that there aren't a few more silly animations or lines activated by shooting stuff.
But according to Sam & Max's characters, i think it could be fun to have them shoot a little more ^^
Maybe more mini games like the driving sequences would do ^^?
I agree. I'd also like some more reactions to different object (I don't expect fifty responses to every object, but a little more than "Nah", and "No dice.")
Except that if more puzzles like the one with the cake and the one with the cow pie were in the game it would not only be more hilarious but more challenging. These were the best moments of the game for me and the most enjoyable I have had since the days of monkey island. Sniff.
PS The rat game was rubbish. I want to whack them with something. Please dont make us drive down that street again in the next episode. Or ever again.
I love it, didn't get stuck for more than a minute or 2 in episode one.
Keep ramping up the difficulty each episode, you guys rock !!
However the world is too claustrophobic and, partly as a result, the puzzles are much too easy and linear (I was shocked to realise 3 hours into playing I had finished the game!). As a result it really seems more like an interactive movie which while mildly entertaining, doesnt have as much staying power as say pretty much all the lucasarts games (sorry! i'm sure telltale are getting a bit tired of the comparisons now!)
Some people seem to suggest that harder puzzles would alienate newcomers to the adventure genre. But it seems that most people buying sam & max, are doing so because they liked the original, and so are probably well-versed in the language of adventure games. And it seems a free option to have harder puzzles if you provide some form of hint system, which isn't too easy to access and doesn't totally feel like cheating.
It might also be interesting to note that part of the reason Lucasarts Grim Fandango was so good (imo) was that they had a (scripting engine) which meant they could concentrate on the game play and create complicated environments quite easily...
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That's my two-cents.
A year or so ago, I saw a new (maybe 5 years by this time) adventure game; it had rave reviews on the box, comparing it to Monkey Island, and for $5 I figured I couldn't go wrong.
Well, while some of the puzzles had a resemblance to those being reminisced about, the bulk were utter rubbish, I found myself bored by the story line and hating the main character.
The only reason I continued to play it to completion was to give it a fair shake. Needless to say I took the store up on their unconditional return policy.
If the story isn't good, there's no reason to continue playing.
(Sorry if I'm repeating what other people said, I only read through the first four or five pages)
The Ep 1 and 2 are very frustrating for me to play. Why? It is waaay to easy. The game almost seems like a chore because I see the solution a mile away, so I just go through the motions to complete it. The first episode took me two days to complete, this one? 3.5 hours on a hungover Sunday afternoon. Much like many have said before, I don't understand why a game has to be dumbed down to include "everyone". Did my beloved Monkey Island dumb it down??! No. And that did pretty well. Do game manufacturers make Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid easier so 3D-phobes like me can attempt to play? No and I'm glad. I love watching my friends go through them, it's like watching a good action movie. Personally, I wouldn't want manufacturers to make the games easier for my friends so the likes of me can attempt to play those games (and ultimately give up interest).
Myst did fantastic in the profit department. So did another favorite of mine, the Longest Journey. Both of those were very challenging and entertaining on diffferent levels. Why is there suddenly this mindset that we need to take the game that a LOT of people loved before and make it easier for newbies. There are plenty of other games (such as online point 'n click games) that newbies can play in order to train their mindset. I understand that making money is key in game manufacturing, but looking at the success of Longest Journey, it is clear that adventure games released in the past 5 years can make a lot of money being targeted to veteran adventure gamers. And speaking of new players, if people are interested enough in a game, they will have motivation to learn a new skill (the adventure-game-mindset-skill). There is no reason that Sam and Max, a veteran game, has to turn into some kind of "introduction" to the genre. That's absurd. I've been waiting forever for this game, only to point 'n click my way through obvious puzzles.
HOWEVER, as someone very intelligently put before me, maybe this will open up the market for other game designers to focus in on a more target audience and release challenging games. It's just disapointing that Sam and Max has to be sacrificed as the stepping stone.
Telltale have said that the season will increase in difficulty as it progresses.
And, as been said many times before story, humour, characters WAY outweigh puzzle difficulty (which is pretty subjective anyway) in giving a rich gaming experience.
For some, perhaps you, puzzles are the most important aspect of adventure games, but I think you'll actually find most AGers would rank story and characters above puzzles. Sam & Max have character in oodles, the story is picking up steam, and it's been said the puzzles will get harder. Hard to see what the complaining's all about, really.
Though I haven't played these games, I'm willing to bet that the beginning levels/areas are much easier than the later ones, the beginning levels helping to ease you in to the strategy/logic/controls involved in the gameplay--even though most of these games are sequels bought by people who played the games earlier, game developers still do it, because they consider it foolhardy to make games otherwise. Can you imagine somebody buying Halo 3 for the first time, only realizing that they should have bought and played Halo 1 and 2 first to get accustomed to the gameplay and difficulty?
Telltale have said that the season will increase in difficulty as it progresses.
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I didn't find E2 any harder than E1. It was even a little bit easier in my opinion.
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And, as been said many times before story, humour, characters WAY outweigh puzzle difficulty (which is pretty subjective anyway) in giving a rich gaming experience.
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You need to take care of all aspects to make a very good game. If one aspects sucks it mostly pulls down the others as well and so the overall experience.
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Sam & Max have character in oodles, the story is picking up steam
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And so the frustration because as soon as you're feeling well in the game and enjoying things, it's already over again which leaves you waiting for another month...*episodic rambling*
Bring it on TTG!
Also, I totally lost my interest in ep 2 after it crashed, haven´t picked it up again in a couple of days. A big part of my loss of interest is that I might as well not play it since there´s actually none of the actual playing. I got through a couple of so obvious puzzles that I actually felt embarassed for Telltale.
I am sorry, this might sound a bit harsh, probably because it is, but I don´t quite appreciate the fact that the veteran fan base kept the game alive for thirteen years, spread word of mouth when the game was released and then the game is targeted to newcomers and dumbed down. Do I really have to go through 4 episodes of "playing" before I actually get to playing? If that´s even the case, probably episode 5´s description of being "pretty challenging" means that it´s aimed at 10 year olds, unlike the previous ones which which were aimed for 7 year olds.
Yeah that does kind of irk me as well..
well even if they are similar you couldn't say their was "an increase" in difficulty.. I dont think telltale were ever gonna increase the difficulty as they went.. they just responded to feedback with a more challenging episode 5.. thats the flaw of the 6 episode season they had to work on them so far in advance they left little room for anything to be changed..they already had 4 episodes on their way to be finished when culture shock came out
Yeah, we know your take on it. If 1 & 2 are about the same, 3 & 4 are both harder (but equal to each other in difficulty) and 5 & 6 harder yet (and equal to each other), then that is "increasing in difficulty as the season progresses" as far as I'm concerned.
I have no reason not to believe what we've been told. And even if the difficulty does stay about where it is now across the next 4 episodes, I don't mind, so long as the writing, humour and plot all continue to entertain me.
I'm not assuming its a flaw i'm saying its a flaw because I believe it is..every review i've read says it is, people who i've got to play the game says it is, and all the calls for an increase in difficulty.. I'm sure they did make that difficulty level intentionally.. I think they were trying to attract other people..and as kunkku says those that have been waiting 13 years and are hit the road fans are gonna be disappointed with the puzzles. My theory of the increase in difficulty as the season progresses plan is because episode 2 is easier than episode 1..
What you seem to be saying here is that if Telltale would have in fact been able to hear all the feedback for episode 1 before they even started episode 2 it might have resulted in a much more difficult game, and what I'm saying is, that's not necessarily true. I think it's more probable that Telltale knew exactly what they were doing when they made the first two (or three, or six) episodes how they were. I mean the argument that they had no idea people wanted a harder game holds no water. Ever since Out from Boneville was released everybody was telling them how Sam & Max needs to be a lot harder, how it needs to be aimed more at seasoned adventure gamers. Culture Shock and Situation Comedy were the response. What that means is that they're making the games like they are for a reason. It may not be a reason that everyone agrees with (and maybe they're wrong?), but I think it should be obvious that they're not doing it specifically to piss off the fans, and they're not doing it because they're clueless.
So yes, while I think fan feedback is valued by Telltale and even affects the games, I don't think it affects them quite so harshly as you might think. If it did, then that would mean the team's vision couldn't have been very solid, and that would really be bad news.
And like JP (or someone) said, not all Hit the Road fans are going to be disappointed by the puzzles, only the ones that consider puzzle difficulty to be as integral to a Sam & Max game as you do. A lot do, but a lot don't. Some even prefer Telltale's approach, though they're not necessarily regulars of this forum. There are also people like yourself who don't like puzzles but are buying the games anyway. Telltale's not oblivious to that.
Well, they definitely should think it´s a flaw if they lose customers because the game is too easy. Hopefully, they won´t (I am sure they hope so), but I am not nearly as much excited about the season 2 as I was before season 1 and that´s not a good sign, actually I lost a lot of my interest just because I felt ep 1 was playing itself. So, it definitely can´t be a good sign if people feel/felt a little let down after 1 episode and the second one didn´t bring much of an improvement. I LOST INTEREST WHILE PLAYING EPISODE 2! I could have finished the episode 2 if the game wouldn´t have crashed, btu after such a lousy puzzle I felt like it wasn´t worth it. Now, guess if I am going to spread the word if this early I´ve lost a lot of interest? I am sure I won´t, I feel like I shouldn´t bother.
Now, the real question is, is it worth it to add a difficult level selector for hardcore gamers and actually make the games enjoyable for newcomers and veterans? Does it take too many workhours? Does it cost too much? Are they going to lose customers because of the easiness or are the people just going to bitch but still keep on buying? Will the word of mouth spread without hardcore gamers or has it ever even spread? Are the gametap users only ones worth catering? Is the hardcore fanbase even worth mentioning (size wise)? Should they bother?
I don´t expect answers from Telltale, but I know that they know them and make their decisions based on them and that´s fine, it´s their game. But am I going to follow to season 2 if I am not completely satisfied with season 1 which has the potential to be a great game but somehow it seems it will be fucked up because Telltale doesn´t have the balls to make games difficult enough? I know the answer to that question, and I can even tell it: I have to think twice, at least. Probably not, though and that´s a shame. Now, one lost customer doesn´t even count and no one gives a shit about me, but I am sure that somewhere there must be at least one person who shares my opinions. THAT´S TWO, ALREADY, YOU SHOULD BE SCARED TELLTALE!!!!
why did Brendan say in his blog that episode 5 was more challenging then? If they didn't believe in a more difficult game they wouldn't make episode 5 harder.
I agree with you, I understand their are reasons behind it, I'm just saying I don't like it personally, others may..
Don't you think there was a huge improvement from the first bone game to the great cow race? I thought there was, and a lot of it seemed to be in response to the feedback to their customers.. We are not talking HUGE changes here..we are talking about improving any problems..
I don't think puzzle difficulty is the be all and end all.. I just think its an important ingredient in the mix..and done correctly it can enhance other facets of a game(immersion, exploration) The only reason I'm harping on this difficulty thing is because I'm very happy with all the other aspects of these new sam and max games.. I don't want a super difficult game or mind numbing puzzles..just some more challenges than these games give us.. I mean everything is so telegraphed, the characters basically tell you exactly what you have to do..
'Course, I don't know sales is the reason the puzzles are the way they are. I'm sure it's a variety of factors. Maybe Telltale doesn't think hard puzzles is necessarily good design, and maybe they're right?
but what are you actually advocating udvarnoky? you want anyone who doesn't like the difficulty to shut up? are you happy with the puzzle difficulty? maybe telltale like purple elephants flying in the sky? maybe brendan was locked in a closet for too long..but that's not the point.. I'm saying the Sam and Max games would be better with an increased difficulty.. i'm still not sure what you are saying..
Not what I said at all. What I did say was that the fact that they will make later episodes harder (just like making the early episodes easy) was part of a plan, NOT just because complainers demanded it.
Again, you missed my point, but maybe that was my fault. Of course Cow Race was an improvement and Sam & Max could very well see something similar and it could very well be because of fan feedback HOWEVER, fans are not the ones making these games...people whose job it is to make games are. Their decisions are not based on nothing.
I want to know how puzzle difficulty (and specifically puzzle difficulty) enhances immersion and exploration. Forcing you to click on things and backtracking through environments doesn't count. Go.
Hey, I wasn´t claiming that they will lose anyone (except maybe me)! I just tried to say that they probably know if they´ll lose customers and that it´s their decision how to deal with it (if there´s anything to deal with). I wanted to express my disappoinment and tell that if there won´t be a raise in the difficulty level, I won´t buy.
I guess he's saying that they'd be better for you with vastly increased difficulty, but not necessarily for the game-playing public as a whole.
He's also saying that Telltale, in all likelihood know exactly what they're doing and have a long term strategy in place.
I think you're reading way too much of your own beliefs into what Brendan said, which was:
In my opinion, puzzle difficulty mostly depends on immersion and exploration. The more objects that are involved in completing a task, the harder it gets. The more combination of different objects, the harder. The bigger the worlds you have to explore and click through, the harder it's going to get. It's ridiculous that going into Bosco's and clicking on the can of shaving cream that's on the table right at the door will segway into that puzzle. It's actually the only thing you can pick up at the store, so where is the challenge? Technically, you don't even have to explore the rest of the store. So that's my take on it. This game was supremely linear w/obvious objects available to you when they were needed (for example the cowpie puzzle - the two objects that you need are right there), you don't need to solve anything to obtain that plate. It's just there in plain sight. So you don't even have to THINK. When there's a cue for you to do something, you know to combine those two objects together because they are the only ones there. There is no exploration or immersion. It just ended up with me having to click on countless objects and hearing the commentary on that object. A lot of times, I knew exactly what I was looking for, so I could just grab that and skip everything else. And in no way am I calling myself an elitist adventure gamer. I still get stuck like all hell in a lot of the free flash-based "escape the room" point 'n click puzzles available on the net.
I'm a huge advocate of the idea that this is a veteran game and it should be targeted towards veteran players. Adventure games that I've paid for before( Myst and the Longest Journey) show that it is possible to sell a lot of games while still maintaining a certain level of difficulty. I understand that in many games there are beginner rounds where you can get used to the game. Why can't we have one here and have the rest of the game be of the expected difficulty? Maybe have the need to combine a couple of objects before leaving the office for the first time? And you can't leave w/out combining those objects. So the new players will get into that Adventure Game mindset. I know some say that they like just to watch the game (much as I like to watch my friends play all those awesome console action games such as Metal Gear Solid), but you gotta understand that most of us are here to solve our way through, not just for the witty dialogue and the storyline (although both are huge contributors to the overall enjoyment of the game). Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of simple point 'n click games that are fun to play just to watch them pan out. May I direct you guys to a japanese site of http://www.3wish.com/ which makes adorable and interesting flash-based point and click games (their "No.5" has a couple of parts to it and I highly recomend). There are SO many games like that, just head on over to lazylaces.com and browse his "point 'n click vault" for free point 'n click games that are just as fun to solve as to look at. But right now we're arguing about the game that seasoned adventure gamers have been dying to get our hands on. Something we PAID for. And we get this???! An intro to the genre, so to speak???! I'm very disapointed with this. I feel like there are other outlets for beginner point and clickers as mentioned above. And no offense, to those that enjoy just "watching" the game, but seasoned gamers are paying to play the game and solve the puzzles, not watch a cartoon. And this is definitely a veteran game that the seasoned gamers have been waiting on forever and the creators know that. It is unfair to us to have to deal with these easy puzzles.
HOWEVER, TO THE GAME DESIGNERS, as much as I'm disapointed w/the puzzle dificulty and the 3D rendering, I am still very impressed by certain elements such as the Home for Ex Child Stars (sorry, don't have the exact name on hand) and the feel of the TV studio. I love love love the feel of those two locales. Very eerie, very creepy, the music at the Home for Ex Child Stars is top notch. Love it. GOOD JOB!
Bringing Myst into the conversation is asking for trouble... while there probably is some overlap, I think a lot of the people who are Sam and Max fans absolutely abhor the type of gameplay and puzzle difficulty that is indicative of the Myst games. Even Hero1 has gone on record as saying that he does not find the puzzles in Myst to be fun at all.
Well this game is being released episodically, so we have yet to see what the later rounds of the game have to offer. To say that one easy puzzle in the first room of an episode can be comparable to the beginning rounds of other games is a bit disingenuous--if you take a game like Zelda, Grand Theft Auto or Halo, the easing in of the difficulty really takes a couple of levels/hours until the "expected difficulty is reached."
Ok, you're right, let's take Myst out of the equation. That was kind of difficult (I want to hear someone who actually passed the third one without hints, jeebus I lasted 2 days on the first three puzzles and gave up). We are still left with the Longest Journey and Monkey Island if you're willing to go that far back. Games that many gamers who've played such games were anticipating and thoroughly enjyoed. Much like Sam and Max. MANY played it before, many were awaiting its comeback, only to encounter this. I just don't understand where this new mindset to introduce the game to beginners is. I'm still going to continue playing all the episodes because I eagerly bought the entire season in anticipation that it would be like Hit the Road, but I really really hope that these two episodes were the introductory period equivalent of a full-length game. It just sucks that we have to wait through these episodes in anticipation of more difficult puzzles.
If there were as many Adventure Game players as there used to be, LucasArts Sam & max wouldn't have got cancelled. We're a diminishing pool to market to. Telltale needs to introduce new players to the genre. I was about 13 when I started playing adventure games - these days those young 13 year old gamers are playing racing, FPS and the like on their consoles.
Also Telltale need to recapture those guys who are in their 30s, used to play the LucasArts & Sierra adventures 15 years ago, but since getting a job, mortgage, spouse, kids have only used their PC for WORD, XL, email and porn.
It's a fine line to tread, but if Telltale are going to survive, they need to firstly make these non-Adventurers experience the game (as they're doing with GameTap) and not put them off entirely by having them stuck on a very hard puzzle.
That may be hard to take for someone wanting "Hit the Road" style multi-object puzzles, but it's the reality of the marketplace (to paraphrase Mike Nelson).