I wouldn't say that.
Alone for the voices I think it's worth it.
It would have been nice if Guybrush got a better design or if you could randomly combine e.g. the old graphics with the new sound or something, but yeah disappointing I wouldn't call it, because for it to be disappointing it needs to have had higher expectations, and I doubt that anyone has expected it to come out at all, and the character design of Guybrush wasn't a secret either.
Yeah, I agree just having the voice was cool. I liked hearing the old insult sword fighting for the first time. I knew all the lines by heart, but it was nice to hear them from someone other than me talking to myself.
I liked the original very much. I am not an old fan btw, first time I played any MI game was last year.
But a major drawback of the SE is that you can only pick either to play the visually-/gameplaywise flawed remake, or the unchanged original missing the enhanced soundtrack and voice over. As I understand it I must live with the updated graphics and the not-so-great new control-scheme if I want to hear it. When I switch back to the original gfx, the voices can no longer be heard either. And that is serious crap. And I am not the only one thinking so, I have talked to a few other MI players and none of them were happy with the SE at all.
Of course you could say that the original game is still included, the version I like; but that game I can have in a dozen other variants anyway, without having to buy a SE. I want to have an improved MI-experience, not one that is better in one way but on the other hand made worse in other important aspects.
Had there been the possibility of playing it just like a talkie-version of MI the game would have fared better, even with the press. Instead they now have a game many people are unhappy with and that basically lives off the original´s fame alone.
This SE actually shows me that I hope Lucasarts will never attempt to do another MI (or another of its big adventure franchises) themselves, because they have absolutely lost it; the touch that made the games excellent. The great guys behind it are now elsewhere, for example at Telltales. What Lucasarts would produce, judging from the SE is a cheap cash in.
What I've always found infinitely more annoying than people who complain for the sake of it is those who complain about people complaining. This "Stop complaining" attitude is prevalent in loads of fandoms (anyone who's been on a Doctor Who forum knows that), and is completely destructive of any discussion. People don't complain to be miserable bastards, they criticise because they love the series and want to see it as good as possible. Also, constructive criticism is far more interesting than blind praise: just imagine if there was no negativity on this forum. It would turn into f**king Livejournal!
I definitely think we should have had the option to use the new music/VO's with the old graphics. But I didn't really mind the new graphics, the character models looked a bit odd, but it wasn't that bad.
I'd still very happily buy a remake of the second game in the same style.
I enjoyed the remake but did find it a slightly mixed bag - Melee Island looked sublime, but the jungle shots often had a "will this do?" half finished quality. Most of the character designs were fine but Guybrush felt rigid and soulless (was his art based on a 3D render? It often looks that way) and their approach to Herman was a disaster.
I also really wish they'd included an option to turn off water effects - any shot that included them slowed my pc to a crawl.
I'd be up for an attempt at an MI2 special edition, but it would be a much harder job. The artwork is a lot more specific and carefully considered in that one.
I like every aspect of the Special Edition and I say that honestly! All of the voice acting was either good or great and was all convincing! I loved the new artwork because it stayed true to the original and was really cool at the same time and I actually didn't mind the way that Guybrush looked. I say well done and thankyou Lucasarts!
if it disappointed you, you must have not liked MI1 in the first place. you CAN play the whole thing in classic mode if you want to.
But you won't need to purchase another version of the game to do that. Most fans already have one or more versions of the game. I can completely understand if someone is disappointed for that reason.
The missing possibility to configure the game as you like is disappointing indeed. The game itself is great though, especially the new soundtrack and voice acting.
The biggest disappointment is that the CPU requires SSE2 which excludes Athlon XP users which are still very common among occasional gamers, and LucasArts didn't know, doesn't care, and doesn't intent to fix it.
I seriously hope that, if one day a Monkey 2 SE comes out, it doesn't have such flaws.
And MI1SE is not the only LucasArts title on Steam which has serious technical issues.
Hm, I don't know, if I wanted to re-play MI 1, I'd do it out of nostalgia and hence with the original game via ScummVM.
But yeah, if I played MI 1 for the first time, I would want to use the new edition for more convenience in the controls, nicer graphics and actual talking instead of text.
I don't know what parts of LiveJournal you're looking at, but I mostly see self-proclaimed emo teenagers whining.
I tend to avoid it, but whenever I've stumbled upon it it's just squeeing fangirls gushing about how amazing the thing they're a fan of is. Maybe someone can find a better example?
Well, I honestly doubt that. No way to tell for sure, of course, but I think that it is quite a big portion of gamers who dislike it. Just saying it´s a minority that just is more loud than the people enjoying it doesn´t seem fair; in the same way I could suggest the positive opinions on the SE would be because of fanboyism, appreciating everything new of MI after the long drought. Mind you, I DO NOT say that, but I think that the negative opinions by myself and others are valid and should not just be dismissed as a loud shouting by a very small minority.
It´s up to each individual to decide if the flaws spoil the fun of the game; so please accept that quite a few people do feel that way, and although having high hopes before release (having high hopes is a base criteria for being disappointed later) do not feel like it was worth the money and can´t recommend it.
If you like it, it is just fine; but don´t try to disregard others. This is a thread about the game, and the right place to speak your mind concerning the game for everyone.
Hm, I don't know, if I wanted to re-play MI 1, I'd do it out of nostalgia and hence with the original game via ScummVM.
But yeah, if I played MI 1 for the first time, I would want to use the new edition for more convenience in the controls, nicer graphics and actual talking instead of text.
I'm not sure about the convenience of the controls but I certainly play the SE edition for the talkies.
Uh, yes. Majority rules as far as game companies marketing their products are concerned.
What I've always found infinitely more annoying than people who complain for the sake of it is those who complain about people complaining. This "Stop complaining" attitude is prevalent in loads of fandoms (anyone who's been on a Doctor Who forum knows that), and is completely destructive of any discussion. People don't complain to be miserable bastards, they criticise because they love the series and want to see it as good as possible. Also, constructive criticism is far more interesting than blind praise: just imagine if there was no negativity on this forum. It would turn into f**king Livejournal!
Well, I honestly doubt that. No way to tell for sure, of course, but I think that it is quite a big portion of gamers who dislike it.
A big portion of gamers who have played the original in the 90s maybe, but not gamers overall. Everywhere I go it seems that more people like the special edition than dislike it. And the only ones who dislike it are the ones who've played the original already. I made a poll about it. Newcomers to the MI series prefer special edition remakes over simple classic rereleases.
Just saying it´s a minority that just is more loud than the people enjoying it doesn´t seem fair; in the same way I could suggest the positive opinions on the SE would be because of fanboyism, appreciating everything new of MI after the long drought. Mind you, I DO NOT say that, but I think that the negative opinions by myself and others are valid and should not just be dismissed as a loud shouting by a very small minority.
Well how can you say it's any bigger than that? You have no way of knowing either which means by your way of thinking you're being equally unfair.
It´s up to each individual to decide if the flaws spoil the fun of the game; so please accept that quite a few people do feel that way, and although having high hopes before release (having high hopes is a base criteria for being disappointed later) do not feel like it was worth the money and can´t recommend it.
Well, I do validate and respect people's opinions however I may disagree with them, but really the only reason they don't like the special edition is because they're looking for something that they will never find in any remake: nostalgia.
If you like it, it is just fine; but don´t try to disregard others. This is a thread about the game, and the right place to speak your mind concerning the game for everyone.
I never once said I was diregarding others. But telling somebody the game is so obviously a disappointment when it clearly isn't to a lot of people is the real example of disregarding others' opinions.
Well, I haven't played it myself yet, just looked over the shoulder of someone playing. But it seemed more convenient, they got rid of selecting the verbs, didn't they?
Well, I haven't played it myself yet, just looked over the shoulder of someone playing. But it seemed more convenient, they got rid of selecting the verbs, didn't they?
Uh, yes. Majority rules as far as game companies marketing their products are concerned.
So how are their opinions less valid on a discussion forum? :rolleyes:
Well, I do validate and respect people's opinions however I may disagree with them, but really the only reason they don't like the special edition is because they're looking for something that they will never find in any remake: nostalgia.
Strawman. Every criticism I've seen of the special edition is completely logical and backed up with well constructed arguments. You don't need to be nostalgic to dislike the character style or jerky animations.
The funny thing is that I am not even nostalgic because MI is fairly new to me! As I sadi I came in contact with MI first in 2008, there is no way I could have built up nostalgic feelings.
And I am not taking any polls you may have started for more valid about how widespread an opinion about a game is than what I have experienced actually talking to people, MusicallyInspired. There are many people who never heard of your poll, and even many MI and adventure players in general who have never ever even visited this forum.
The very same people I know who disliking it for example do like ToMI. This is because unlike you might think even people who experienced MI 20 years ago are not so stuck not to appreciate modernization if it is well executed; which is the case with ToMI.
Unhappiness with the SE is not a result of frustrated old men, but of the game falling short in many areas; it doesn´t beat the original in control scheme and gameplay, yet it fails to appeal to many modern gamers visually as well because it is not good enough for that audience.
I don´t believe one minute that it is just a minority as small as you believe.
the complainers are the vocal minority because when something doesnt live up to expectations, it's human nature to go somewhere and complain about it.
but when something EXCEEDS expectations, people dont look for a place (this forum for example) to go and praise it. most people who have a satisfying experience with a game are content to just have experienced it and they leave it alone, and probably at most just recommend it to friends. a very small FEW will seek out a community just to heap praises on a game. think about how many games you have loved in the last 20 years. did you go sign up on every one of their individual websites and go to the forum and praise how awesome all those games were? most likely not.
but the dissappointed people will actively and angrily seek out MULTIPLE communities to go bitch and moan at. that's why forums are full of angry people who hated the game, even when it's a rousing success.
you can't use a game's forum to tell if the game is any good or not because the angry vocal minority becomes an angry vocal majority, just based on the fact that not as many people are praising it on the same forum. use review sites and magazines to tell if a game is any good or not. using a forum for that purpose is like going to metacritic and only reading the lowest-scored reviews.
Hm, I don't know, if I wanted to re-play MI 1, I'd do it out of nostalgia and hence with the original game via ScummVM.
But yeah, if I played MI 1 for the first time, I would want to use the new edition for more convenience in the controls, nicer graphics and actual talking instead of text.
Yeah, if you new to the genre talkies are the best way to go, especialy since MI:SE includes the original game too. Just with out the disc 27 joke.
the complainers are the vocal minority because when something doesnt live up to expectations, it's human nature to go somewhere and complain about it.
While I agree that people rather speak their mind to tell of their dissatisfaction with something, this does not neccessarily make them a vocal minority. It can just as well be the real majority that complains, and in the case of the SE I believe that there really is an especially large portion of gamers being feeling that way.
And even if you don´t know the original, flawed visuals and flawed controls remain obvious; even to newcomers. The people not liking it are vocal, but I bet it´s about 50%. Players are not dumb and just live happily with a game that is not as good as it could be in several ways.
Guys, I never said that opinions didn't matter on a forum. In fact I never said anything about opinions. I believe the exact words I used were:
...from a very vocal minority.
Where do you get anything about opinions in that sentence? And how can you have the gall to assume what I mean by that by criticising my so-called point of view. I said before that I respect opinions from everyone. But the fact that LucasArts are seemingly going ahead with more rereleases and possibly remakes proves that there's enough interest in it and thus proves that those who don't like the remake are the minority. Don't blame me for that.
This is twisted logic and proves nothing but that you want to defend your position no matter what; I am stubborn and can play that game too, and I do not intend to let it stand that I with my complaints am a member of a "vocal minority", although I doubt that we are not getting anywhere with this debate.
You know, a franchise like MI has a very loyal fanbase that will guarantee a success to some degree. And you have a game that most people bought before playing it, It´s cheap, it´s Monkey Island, thus having a great reputation. Whether they really are happy or disappointed with it will only become clear after the purchase, making the equation of success in sales = satisfaction by players illogical. Naturally the people who don´t like it are among those buyers as well.
Lucasarts can attempt as many remakes as they like; they screwed up this time in the eyes of many, so they better try to do it better next time, or soon enough the bonus of well-known franchises will wear off when Lucasarts gets the reputation of doing flawed, quick remakes to get a bit o extra-cash.
It´s funny since they could have had an easy time with the SE already; giving people the option to play the original version with voice acting would probably have silenced at least the many oldschool fans already. But they failed to give it even that little thought and forced everyone to be confronted with both the....debateable quality of the visuals and the inconvenient controls.
While I agree that people rather speak their mind to tell of their dissatisfaction with something, this does not neccessarily make them a vocal minority. It can just as well be the real majority that complains, and in the case of the SE I believe that there really is an especially large portion of gamers being feeling that way.
And even if you don´t know the original, flawed visuals and flawed controls remain obvious; even to newcomers. The people not liking it are vocal, but I bet it´s about 50%. Players are not dumb and just live happily with a game that is not as good as it could be in several ways.
i'd say an 85 is a fairly well recieved game. reviews are usually a LOT harsher than that, even for mediocre games.
from everything i've read about the reception of this game, people LOVE the voice work and redone music, they LIKE the art (with the exception of guybrush and his zack morris wig), they still LOVE the story and humor, and they DISLIKE the controls (why the hell would you make a point and click game LESS intuitive? you mean i have to select a verb in one menu, then close it, then open another menu to click on an item, then CLOSE that menu to click on something in the world, and if i miss-click, i have to do it all over again?!). a great game with a major fault becomes a good game.
so yeah anyway, from everything i've seen is generally positive about the game. so yeah, i'm standing by vocal MINORITY.
Just let it go, it is no use, history will show how the game is regarded when we all look back in a few years.
There is really no point in argueing any longer about this. We have different opinions on this, cést la vie. I believe as strongly in many people thinking the same as I, you don´t.
For the time being let´s discuss more important concerns, namely the ToMI chapters still awaiting us.
Whatever, dude. You're obviously always right so we'll bow to your immense wisdom and knowledge. :rolleyes:
My only point in that post was to point out the blatant disregard for other people's opinions for saying that it was widely regarded by everyone as a colossal disappointment which is simply not true. It's no where close to true. That statement does the very thing you're accusing me of. Can't you see the logic in that? And if you don't like my opinions then...well....tough. Deal with it. Get over it. Get a life. Yadda yadda yadda. Or be stubborn all you want to but it's not changing my opinion in the least. I've already accepted and respected your opinion, why can't you do the same? If you don't like the thought of being in a minority then don't be in one! You can spit and hollar all you want but the facts are clearly against you. It's widely accepted and regarded by old and new fans alike. There's simply no evidence that the majority were disappointed with it. So you have no debatable ground to stand on. But if you want to believe that then that's fine. I respect that. Good for you. Fight the good fight.
Comments
http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-GB/games/media/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d80258410995/
yah...
I wouldn't say that.
Alone for the voices I think it's worth it.
It would have been nice if Guybrush got a better design or if you could randomly combine e.g. the old graphics with the new sound or something, but yeah disappointing I wouldn't call it, because for it to be disappointing it needs to have had higher expectations, and I doubt that anyone has expected it to come out at all, and the character design of Guybrush wasn't a secret either.
My two cents.
But a major drawback of the SE is that you can only pick either to play the visually-/gameplaywise flawed remake, or the unchanged original missing the enhanced soundtrack and voice over. As I understand it I must live with the updated graphics and the not-so-great new control-scheme if I want to hear it. When I switch back to the original gfx, the voices can no longer be heard either. And that is serious crap. And I am not the only one thinking so, I have talked to a few other MI players and none of them were happy with the SE at all.
Of course you could say that the original game is still included, the version I like; but that game I can have in a dozen other variants anyway, without having to buy a SE. I want to have an improved MI-experience, not one that is better in one way but on the other hand made worse in other important aspects.
Had there been the possibility of playing it just like a talkie-version of MI the game would have fared better, even with the press. Instead they now have a game many people are unhappy with and that basically lives off the original´s fame alone.
This SE actually shows me that I hope Lucasarts will never attempt to do another MI (or another of its big adventure franchises) themselves, because they have absolutely lost it; the touch that made the games excellent. The great guys behind it are now elsewhere, for example at Telltales. What Lucasarts would produce, judging from the SE is a cheap cash in.
...to a very vocal minority.
This.
So their opinions are less valid? :rolleyes:
What I've always found infinitely more annoying than people who complain for the sake of it is those who complain about people complaining. This "Stop complaining" attitude is prevalent in loads of fandoms (anyone who's been on a Doctor Who forum knows that), and is completely destructive of any discussion. People don't complain to be miserable bastards, they criticise because they love the series and want to see it as good as possible. Also, constructive criticism is far more interesting than blind praise: just imagine if there was no negativity on this forum. It would turn into f**king Livejournal!
I'd still very happily buy a remake of the second game in the same style.
I also really wish they'd included an option to turn off water effects - any shot that included them slowed my pc to a crawl.
I'd be up for an attempt at an MI2 special edition, but it would be a much harder job. The artwork is a lot more specific and carefully considered in that one.
The missing possibility to configure the game as you like is disappointing indeed. The game itself is great though, especially the new soundtrack and voice acting.
The biggest disappointment is that the CPU requires SSE2 which excludes Athlon XP users which are still very common among occasional gamers, and LucasArts didn't know, doesn't care, and doesn't intent to fix it.
I seriously hope that, if one day a Monkey 2 SE comes out, it doesn't have such flaws.
And MI1SE is not the only LucasArts title on Steam which has serious technical issues.
I don't know what parts of LiveJournal you're looking at, but I mostly see self-proclaimed emo teenagers whining.
But yeah, if I played MI 1 for the first time, I would want to use the new edition for more convenience in the controls, nicer graphics and actual talking instead of text.
I tend to avoid it, but whenever I've stumbled upon it it's just squeeing fangirls gushing about how amazing the thing they're a fan of is. Maybe someone can find a better example?
Well, I honestly doubt that. No way to tell for sure, of course, but I think that it is quite a big portion of gamers who dislike it. Just saying it´s a minority that just is more loud than the people enjoying it doesn´t seem fair; in the same way I could suggest the positive opinions on the SE would be because of fanboyism, appreciating everything new of MI after the long drought. Mind you, I DO NOT say that, but I think that the negative opinions by myself and others are valid and should not just be dismissed as a loud shouting by a very small minority.
It´s up to each individual to decide if the flaws spoil the fun of the game; so please accept that quite a few people do feel that way, and although having high hopes before release (having high hopes is a base criteria for being disappointed later) do not feel like it was worth the money and can´t recommend it.
If you like it, it is just fine; but don´t try to disregard others. This is a thread about the game, and the right place to speak your mind concerning the game for everyone.
I'm not sure about the convenience of the controls but I certainly play the SE edition for the talkies.
Uh, yes. Majority rules as far as game companies marketing their products are concerned.
Oh stop complaining!
A big portion of gamers who have played the original in the 90s maybe, but not gamers overall. Everywhere I go it seems that more people like the special edition than dislike it. And the only ones who dislike it are the ones who've played the original already. I made a poll about it. Newcomers to the MI series prefer special edition remakes over simple classic rereleases.
Well how can you say it's any bigger than that? You have no way of knowing either which means by your way of thinking you're being equally unfair.
Well, I do validate and respect people's opinions however I may disagree with them, but really the only reason they don't like the special edition is because they're looking for something that they will never find in any remake: nostalgia.
I never once said I was diregarding others. But telling somebody the game is so obviously a disappointment when it clearly isn't to a lot of people is the real example of disregarding others' opinions.
Well, I haven't played it myself yet, just looked over the shoulder of someone playing. But it seemed more convenient, they got rid of selecting the verbs, didn't they?
I hate the way Guybrush looks and walks.
Sort of... changed them into icons
So how are their opinions less valid on a discussion forum? :rolleyes:
Strawman. Every criticism I've seen of the special edition is completely logical and backed up with well constructed arguments. You don't need to be nostalgic to dislike the character style or jerky animations.
And I am not taking any polls you may have started for more valid about how widespread an opinion about a game is than what I have experienced actually talking to people, MusicallyInspired. There are many people who never heard of your poll, and even many MI and adventure players in general who have never ever even visited this forum.
The very same people I know who disliking it for example do like ToMI. This is because unlike you might think even people who experienced MI 20 years ago are not so stuck not to appreciate modernization if it is well executed; which is the case with ToMI.
Unhappiness with the SE is not a result of frustrated old men, but of the game falling short in many areas; it doesn´t beat the original in control scheme and gameplay, yet it fails to appeal to many modern gamers visually as well because it is not good enough for that audience.
I don´t believe one minute that it is just a minority as small as you believe.
but when something EXCEEDS expectations, people dont look for a place (this forum for example) to go and praise it. most people who have a satisfying experience with a game are content to just have experienced it and they leave it alone, and probably at most just recommend it to friends. a very small FEW will seek out a community just to heap praises on a game. think about how many games you have loved in the last 20 years. did you go sign up on every one of their individual websites and go to the forum and praise how awesome all those games were? most likely not.
but the dissappointed people will actively and angrily seek out MULTIPLE communities to go bitch and moan at. that's why forums are full of angry people who hated the game, even when it's a rousing success.
you can't use a game's forum to tell if the game is any good or not because the angry vocal minority becomes an angry vocal majority, just based on the fact that not as many people are praising it on the same forum. use review sites and magazines to tell if a game is any good or not. using a forum for that purpose is like going to metacritic and only reading the lowest-scored reviews.
Yeah, if you new to the genre talkies are the best way to go, especialy since MI:SE includes the original game too. Just with out the disc 27 joke.
While I agree that people rather speak their mind to tell of their dissatisfaction with something, this does not neccessarily make them a vocal minority. It can just as well be the real majority that complains, and in the case of the SE I believe that there really is an especially large portion of gamers being feeling that way.
And even if you don´t know the original, flawed visuals and flawed controls remain obvious; even to newcomers. The people not liking it are vocal, but I bet it´s about 50%. Players are not dumb and just live happily with a game that is not as good as it could be in several ways.
Where do you get anything about opinions in that sentence? And how can you have the gall to assume what I mean by that by criticising my so-called point of view. I said before that I respect opinions from everyone. But the fact that LucasArts are seemingly going ahead with more rereleases and possibly remakes proves that there's enough interest in it and thus proves that those who don't like the remake are the minority. Don't blame me for that.
You know, a franchise like MI has a very loyal fanbase that will guarantee a success to some degree. And you have a game that most people bought before playing it, It´s cheap, it´s Monkey Island, thus having a great reputation. Whether they really are happy or disappointed with it will only become clear after the purchase, making the equation of success in sales = satisfaction by players illogical. Naturally the people who don´t like it are among those buyers as well.
Lucasarts can attempt as many remakes as they like; they screwed up this time in the eyes of many, so they better try to do it better next time, or soon enough the bonus of well-known franchises will wear off when Lucasarts gets the reputation of doing flawed, quick remakes to get a bit o extra-cash.
It´s funny since they could have had an easy time with the SE already; giving people the option to play the original version with voice acting would probably have silenced at least the many oldschool fans already. But they failed to give it even that little thought and forced everyone to be confronted with both the....debateable quality of the visuals and the inconvenient controls.
i'd say an 85 is a fairly well recieved game. reviews are usually a LOT harsher than that, even for mediocre games.
from everything i've read about the reception of this game, people LOVE the voice work and redone music, they LIKE the art (with the exception of guybrush and his zack morris wig), they still LOVE the story and humor, and they DISLIKE the controls (why the hell would you make a point and click game LESS intuitive? you mean i have to select a verb in one menu, then close it, then open another menu to click on an item, then CLOSE that menu to click on something in the world, and if i miss-click, i have to do it all over again?!). a great game with a major fault becomes a good game.
so yeah anyway, from everything i've seen is generally positive about the game. so yeah, i'm standing by vocal MINORITY.
Just let it go, it is no use, history will show how the game is regarded when we all look back in a few years.
There is really no point in argueing any longer about this. We have different opinions on this, cést la vie. I believe as strongly in many people thinking the same as I, you don´t.
For the time being let´s discuss more important concerns, namely the ToMI chapters still awaiting us.
Whatever, dude. You're obviously always right so we'll bow to your immense wisdom and knowledge. :rolleyes:
My only point in that post was to point out the blatant disregard for other people's opinions for saying that it was widely regarded by everyone as a colossal disappointment which is simply not true. It's no where close to true. That statement does the very thing you're accusing me of. Can't you see the logic in that? And if you don't like my opinions then...well....tough. Deal with it. Get over it. Get a life. Yadda yadda yadda. Or be stubborn all you want to but it's not changing my opinion in the least. I've already accepted and respected your opinion, why can't you do the same? If you don't like the thought of being in a minority then don't be in one! You can spit and hollar all you want but the facts are clearly against you. It's widely accepted and regarded by old and new fans alike. There's simply no evidence that the majority were disappointed with it. So you have no debatable ground to stand on. But if you want to believe that then that's fine. I respect that. Good for you. Fight the good fight.
Anyway, I'm done. Enjoy the thread.