Maybe you can start a poll. "What gender are you" and have "male", "female" and "other (specify)" (all poll should have "other", just in case).
The danger is in everyone trying to be a smartass and answer "other" of course.
Maybe you can start a poll. "What gender are you" and have "male", "female" and "other (specify)" (all poll should have "other", just in case).
The danger is in everyone trying to be a smartass and answer "other" of course.
Polls are complicated.
Theres the reason you specified, and then theres the fact that not everyone will answer it(truthfully, or even at all).
I will just keep thinking that theres "no girls on the internet", even myself.
Well, from what I remember, sex was always a biological term, with gender being a cultural one, which has been considered to be heavily linked to what you are biologically.
It's more of a "I-adopted-a-kid-can-I-call-him-my-son" kind of thing.
Or maybe I've just spent too much time in the genderqueer/transexual community.
I harbor no ill will against people who are gay, none at all. But from my perspective, there are certain understood roles that men and women play in society. Certain... culturally identifiable characteristics. It's the men who intentionally behave effeminately and the women who dress with intent to appear masculine/androgynous that weird me out.
I mean, it's one thing to rebel against conformity (which is just another type of conformity, but I digress) or to have quirks about oneself that display differences from the norm, but I don't understand why some men want to act like women, or some women want people to stare perplexedly at them and wonder which sex they are.
That's just culture speaking.
I'm personally very anti-gender roles.
The best example is this -
Girls are given Barbies.
Boys are given G.I-Joes.
Because they have an innate appreciation for them?
No, because it's the norm.
We're just brainwashed to expect certain patterns from people.
And for most people, they don't really WANT to act like the opposite sex, they just feel that way inside, and they prefer to keep their appearance in synchronization with it.
Because they have an innate appreciation for them?
No, because it's the norm.
We're just brainwashed to expect certain patterns from people.
That's absolutely wrong.
I have two nephews, and they WANT to play with guns and swords and football and violent video games and stuff. Noone told them to be that way, they just like that kind of stuff. When my oldest nephew sees me playing an MMORPG, he always asks me to stop what I'm doing and go kill some monsters, because it's fun.
Noone brainwashed either of them. I've known both of them since they were born, and the youngest is now 7 years old. They've always been interested in "guy stuff." It's not brainwashing at all.
It's more likely that most people who are rebelling from playing into the role that their sex in their culture plays, they rebel because they were involved in a tragic event in life that makes them question themselves... something possibly along the lines of sexual assault.
That doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is a brainwashed conformist.
There's a girl at my college who just pretends to be a girl gamer to get boys to like her. It's so annoying. Five years ago, saying you were a gamer would be the last thing you'd do to get people to like you.
In other news, I don't really get the whole "gender isn't the same as sex" thing. It seems really feminist (feminist as in "equality in genders", not "women are better than men") at first, but it actually isn't. If anything, you perpetuates stereotypical gender roles by saying "yeah, these roles exist, but I'm not going to conform to them".
I also don't understand when people say there's a difference between movies and films. My mind is just too simple and fragile for this.
That's just culture speaking.
I'm personally very anti-gender roles.
The best example is this -
Girls are given Barbies.
Boys are given G.I-Joes.
Actually, there was a study done with Apes, I believe, that showed that little male monkeys have a tendency towards playing with toy cars and stuff, while little female monkeys prefer dolls and things. So it is innate in some sense. I believe that these are roles that have evolved both socially and biologically, but the social emphasis on them is starting to die down. Personally, I'm male and I have no interest in cars or football or any other manly endeavour, but I still consider myself to be of the male gender.
Also, it seems like it would be a good idea to have "male/female" displayed somewhere under our avatars. I'm gonna start a thread asking for that right now ^^
I personally don't feel a difference between genders (I feel I'd act exactly the same if I was a male, only I'd be gay as a result) but I believe there is one. So I'm probably just in the middle.
I believe there is one, because there is no way people would undergo surgery for no reason. Because I've seen little boys who tried to cut off their genitals saying "I'm a girl", leaving their parents desperate because they had no clue what was going on.
On the other hand, I do believe that a lot of it is constructed. Maybe if we stopped being that way, the little boy wouldn't try to cut his penis off saying "I'm a girl", he'd go play with dolls and still feel like a boy.
Sure enough, my younger brothers played with dolls more than I did. I never liked dolls. He also played with guns, which I never liked either. Nobody though either was weird.
Also, when kids are young, they do build their identity based on social constructs. I remember learning about that. Boys try to make sure they don't do "girl things" and girls they don't do "boy things". My nephew is a good example of that, he made sure he never played with bugs because "liking bugs is a girl thing". Why? Because both his sisters loved bugs. Of course, liking bugs is just a kid's thing and has nothing to do with gender.
Anyway, if we talk purely of definition, sex is biological, and gender isn't. But I personally don't like the concept of binary gender, I find it stupid. Even with our current social constructs, if we took all traits we consider "feminine" and all traits we consider "masculine", nobody would have all of one and none of the other.
I say "current social constructs" because things change. Corsets are considered something female wear, yet they were first worn by males. Skirts are sometimes a female garment, sometimes both genders wear them. Dresses tend to be considered "for females" (although pants are for both), while in the past they were a kid clothes (you can see lots of old painting with little boys in dresses. Nowadays if a little boy wants to wear a dress people go all "OMG he's going to turn gay" -_-' But people don't realise that used to be the norm, at least in some places).
I absolutely believe in conditioning, willing or not. The fact that people will smile if a boy does something but frown if a girl does it (or the other way around) is enough to condition boys and girls, and the parents will honestly say they didn't encourage it, when they obviously did.
But still, that doesn't mean any time someone does something that matches their gender as per society, they've been conditioned, either.
I harbor no ill will against people who are gay, none at all.
Separate post just to answer to that.
Transgendered people aren't majoritarily gay. The gay ones are more "shown" I guess, but if you look at figures... Let me give you example numbers.
Say that gay people are 15% of people. I just pulled that number out of my ass for the example. If that's the case, then:
- 15% of men who aren't transgendered (feel like males inside or don't care) like males.
- 15% of men who are transgendered (feel like females inside) like males.
It's somewhat rarer to undergo an operation when it "turns you gay", because there is still a lot of sexualism against gay people and it's less understood. But here I'm not counting people who undergo surgery only (that would be transexuals).
If you hang out on transgendered forums and stuff, most of them are straight for their biological gender. Just like most non-transgendered people are straight for their biological gender.
Just throwing it out there, because that kind of association annoys me. Lots of transvestites and stuff are straight. But there is that idea that if a (biological) male is effeminate, or if a (biological) female is manly, then they're gay. That's stupid. That's so not how it works.
I mean, it's one thing to rebel against conformity (which is just another type of conformity, but I digress) or to have quirks about oneself that display differences from the norm, but I don't understand why some men want to act like women, or some women want people to stare perplexedly at them and wonder which sex they are.
It isn't that they want to weird you out, they're just doing what makes them feel comfortable, in the same way that most men wear masculine clothes and most women wear feminine clothes. I know most boys like playing with guy toys and most girls like playing with dolls, but there are some who like playing with the "opposite" kind or both.
But to ultimately answer your question simply, they're just doing what they feel to be comfortable for them.
It's more likely that most people who are rebelling from playing into the role that their sex in their culture plays, they rebel because they were involved in a tragic event in life that makes them question themselves... something possibly along the lines of sexual assault.
I can tell you right now that this is as untrue as saying gay people are gay because of child abuse. Which is horribly untrue.
I remember I was mad as hell at Cooking Mama because it didn't make it clear that onions cook slower than other ingredients. I was stumped on those cook-multiple-items-in-a-pan tasks for a very long time.
Oh by the way, I was very into what were considered boy toys back in the day, the problem is my parents didn't enforce it. They bought me Barbie's and dolls, and while I didn't necessarily dislike them, I grew up in the playground with a lot of boys and always wanted what they had too. Sometimes they gave me their Power Rangers action figures or dinosaur toys, which was pretty cool.
One time I wanted a remote controlled Jurassic Park jeep for Christmas and they got me some dollhouse thing I didn't ask for, which looked as if it was the same amount of money. I believed in Santa then so I also believed their excuse. I'm still mad about that years later!!
Oh by the way, I was very into what were considered boy toys back in the day, the problem is my parents didn't enforce it. They bought me Barbie's and dolls, and while I didn't necessarily dislike them, I grew up in the playground with a lot of boys and always wanted what they had too. Sometimes they gave me their Power Rangers action figures or dinosaur toys, which was pretty cool.
One time I wanted a remote controlled Jurassic Park jeep for Christmas and they got me some dollhouse thing I didn't ask for, which looked as if it was the same amount of money. I believed in Santa then so I also believed their excuse. I'm still mad about that years later!!
I hope you at least saved the dollhouse so you could buy the Jurassic Park jeep and run the dollhouse over with it
I remember I was mad as hell at Cooking Mama because it didn't make it clear that onions cook slower than other ingredients. I was stumped on those cook-multiple-items-in-a-pan tasks for a very long time.
It's also really annoying how some of the meats cook at vastly different speeds, chicken always seems to take ages. And I've never mastered any og the bloody gelatin desserts, I always break them when trying to get them out of the mould.
My parents wouldn't let me have the boys toys that I wanted either. I wanted the Lego pirate ship, but that was a boys toy so I got a Lego pony riding school. I wanted the Playmobil pirate ship, that was still for boys, I got a Playmobil pony riding school. The first non-girly thing I ever managed to talk them into getting me as a child was HeroQuest when I was 10. Unfortunately for my parents, that's what got me into Warhammer.
Also, I now own a Playmobil pirate ship AND a Lego pirate ship. Ha.
Your parents are... weird. My parents never really cared about what was boy toys or girl toys. They never had a problem getting us what we wanted. I'm not sure I can even think of the toys I used to have in matters of "boy" or "girl" toys, they're just toys.
Of course, I can't think back that much. The oldest gifts are remember are board games, books and videogames, which are genderless anyways.
No, Lego was a male toy if the theme was something like pirates or castles. Things like houses and pony stables were fine. At least that's how my parents seemed to judge it anyway.
Your parents are... weird. My parents never really cared about what was boy toys or girl toys. They never had a problem getting us what we wanted. I'm not sure I can even think of the toys I used to have in matters of "boy" or "girl" toys, they're just toys.
Of course, I can't think back that much. The oldest gifts are remember are board games, books and videogames, which are genderless anyways.
Same here, actually. I mean, it's not like Tope and I didn't get girly gifts back then, but we also got a lot of science kits too, which I guess is androgynous. I also remember getting Metroid Prime for my twelfth birthday. :>
Meh, I hate these stereotypes, true as some might be. Liking animals, I notice a lot more girls are up for that (like being a shelter volunteer) than guys like myself. Oh well...
Anyway, time for a story I read in the paper some time ago:
* There was a boy, but when he was born something went wrong and his weenie got burned. No problem, the doctors said, we give him a vagina, you give him girly hormones and raise him as a girl, and since the gender difference is only created during the early years, he will never know otherwise.
But, obviously, this plan backfired, as the guy wanted to do guyly stuff, was a wee bit more aggressive than the other girls, eventually got attracted to girls and stuff like that. And thus his parents told him the thruth, and he had to do some more surgery to be turned a "guy" again.
It was just my mom, my dad just agreed with her most of the time to keep her sane. Now they don't really care what I do, though my mom still has godawful crazy moments when I don't wear make-up or earrings to a party. No seriously, she spazzes out. One time we were having a fight over it. She wanted me to wear make-up to a family party, which we have like thirty of every year!!!! I didn't feel like wearing make-up and she threw a fit and I asked her why it matters and she's all "wearing make-up shows respect in looking presentable!" Really, mom, REALLY? Gee I wonder if grandma is going to burst into tears and shout "oh god my granddaughter doesn't respect me what is the point of living!!" when she sees me and my offensive makeup-less face.
"wearing make-up shows respect in looking presentable!"
I find the idea that male faces are presentable as is but female faces need to be disguised to be presentable offensive, honestly.
I had a whole fight with my own mother when I fought for makeup rights lol. I must have been 14 or so, and she insisted that wearing make-up was sexual so she wouldn't let me do it until I was of age, and I fought for the right to wear make-up.
And I won! Then I didn't wear make-up, and still don't. I was never interested in doing it, I just wanted the right to do it. Matter of principle.
She never seemed to understand that, though.
Myself, and most guys I know, really despise make-up.
I mean, I rather see a girl 'pure' than with smudge all over her face...
Makes one wonder why so many girls use it. Or maybe my friends group is "weird"?
No, I know more guys who dislike it than guys who like it. It seems that females are the ones who insist that other females (and/or themselves) should wear it.
As far as I know it originates in prostitutes wearing it to pretend they were aroused (biology lesson, guys, blood flows to a woman's lips - all of them - when she's aroused).
But how it turned into the "norm", I have absolutely no idea.
No, I know more guys who dislike it than guys who like it. It seems that females are the ones who insist that other females (and/or themselves) should wear it.
Like "trendy" fashion - guys don't care, women just wear it for other women.
Feminism aims to promote equal rights for both sexes. It's not biased towards women, like most people think.
Yeah, exactly.
People pretend that our condition is fine right now, women have almost the same rights as men(equal pay and topfree equality are some examples).
But look at billboards and magazines. around 70% of those pictures are women trying to "look pretty".
Men's magazines have pictures of women.
Women's magazines have articles on how to look like the women in men's magazines.
Weird, isn't it?
About gender roles, people say that a man can never replace a "motherly figure."
That women need to be housewives because they're better with children.
Now, what about male gay couples?
I have quite a few pets, and I'm pretty motherly with them. I'd say I wouldn't be a too-bad mother with human children, either.
Now for the men's side, they're expected to not show their emotions, or they'll be "pussies".
They're expected to hit on every single woman they pass by on the street.
They're supposed to be "strong", with clearly visible abdominals(which, by the way, is not natural).
It's only the increase in the amount of us "geeky dudes" in the last 20 years that have reduced this stereotype.
Comments
Which makes me really wonder, how many girls ARE there on the TTForums?
The danger is in everyone trying to be a smartass and answer "other" of course.
Polls are complicated.
Theres the reason you specified, and then theres the fact that not everyone will answer it(truthfully, or even at all).
I will just keep thinking that theres "no girls on the internet", even myself.
* Male
* Female
* Both
* Neither
Sex depends on your X's and Y's.
Gender depends on what kind of person you are inside.
So I'd say that my sex is male - I've got a beard.
My gender, however... I'd say neither.
I'm not a macho prick, but I'm not a "princess", either.
It's more of a "I-adopted-a-kid-can-I-call-him-my-son" kind of thing.
Or maybe I've just spent too much time in the genderqueer/transexual community.
I harbor no ill will against people who are gay, none at all. But from my perspective, there are certain understood roles that men and women play in society. Certain... culturally identifiable characteristics. It's the men who intentionally behave effeminately and the women who dress with intent to appear masculine/androgynous that weird me out.
I mean, it's one thing to rebel against conformity (which is just another type of conformity, but I digress) or to have quirks about oneself that display differences from the norm, but I don't understand why some men want to act like women, or some women want people to stare perplexedly at them and wonder which sex they are.
I'm personally very anti-gender roles.
The best example is this -
Girls are given Barbies.
Boys are given G.I-Joes.
Because they have an innate appreciation for them?
No, because it's the norm.
We're just brainwashed to expect certain patterns from people.
And for most people, they don't really WANT to act like the opposite sex, they just feel that way inside, and they prefer to keep their appearance in synchronization with it.
That's absolutely wrong.
I have two nephews, and they WANT to play with guns and swords and football and violent video games and stuff. Noone told them to be that way, they just like that kind of stuff. When my oldest nephew sees me playing an MMORPG, he always asks me to stop what I'm doing and go kill some monsters, because it's fun.
Noone brainwashed either of them. I've known both of them since they were born, and the youngest is now 7 years old. They've always been interested in "guy stuff." It's not brainwashing at all.
It's more likely that most people who are rebelling from playing into the role that their sex in their culture plays, they rebel because they were involved in a tragic event in life that makes them question themselves... something possibly along the lines of sexual assault.
That doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is a brainwashed conformist.
That comic made me laugh heartily.
There's a girl at my college who just pretends to be a girl gamer to get boys to like her. It's so annoying. Five years ago, saying you were a gamer would be the last thing you'd do to get people to like you.
In other news, I don't really get the whole "gender isn't the same as sex" thing. It seems really feminist (feminist as in "equality in genders", not "women are better than men") at first, but it actually isn't. If anything, you perpetuates stereotypical gender roles by saying "yeah, these roles exist, but I'm not going to conform to them".
I also don't understand when people say there's a difference between movies and films. My mind is just too simple and fragile for this.
Actually, there was a study done with Apes, I believe, that showed that little male monkeys have a tendency towards playing with toy cars and stuff, while little female monkeys prefer dolls and things. So it is innate in some sense. I believe that these are roles that have evolved both socially and biologically, but the social emphasis on them is starting to die down. Personally, I'm male and I have no interest in cars or football or any other manly endeavour, but I still consider myself to be of the male gender.
Also, it seems like it would be a good idea to have "male/female" displayed somewhere under our avatars. I'm gonna start a thread asking for that right now ^^
I believe there is one, because there is no way people would undergo surgery for no reason. Because I've seen little boys who tried to cut off their genitals saying "I'm a girl", leaving their parents desperate because they had no clue what was going on.
On the other hand, I do believe that a lot of it is constructed. Maybe if we stopped being that way, the little boy wouldn't try to cut his penis off saying "I'm a girl", he'd go play with dolls and still feel like a boy.
Sure enough, my younger brothers played with dolls more than I did. I never liked dolls. He also played with guns, which I never liked either. Nobody though either was weird.
Also, when kids are young, they do build their identity based on social constructs. I remember learning about that. Boys try to make sure they don't do "girl things" and girls they don't do "boy things". My nephew is a good example of that, he made sure he never played with bugs because "liking bugs is a girl thing". Why? Because both his sisters loved bugs. Of course, liking bugs is just a kid's thing and has nothing to do with gender.
Anyway, if we talk purely of definition, sex is biological, and gender isn't. But I personally don't like the concept of binary gender, I find it stupid. Even with our current social constructs, if we took all traits we consider "feminine" and all traits we consider "masculine", nobody would have all of one and none of the other.
I say "current social constructs" because things change. Corsets are considered something female wear, yet they were first worn by males. Skirts are sometimes a female garment, sometimes both genders wear them. Dresses tend to be considered "for females" (although pants are for both), while in the past they were a kid clothes (you can see lots of old painting with little boys in dresses. Nowadays if a little boy wants to wear a dress people go all "OMG he's going to turn gay" -_-' But people don't realise that used to be the norm, at least in some places).
I absolutely believe in conditioning, willing or not. The fact that people will smile if a boy does something but frown if a girl does it (or the other way around) is enough to condition boys and girls, and the parents will honestly say they didn't encourage it, when they obviously did.
But still, that doesn't mean any time someone does something that matches their gender as per society, they've been conditioned, either.
Separate post just to answer to that.
Transgendered people aren't majoritarily gay. The gay ones are more "shown" I guess, but if you look at figures... Let me give you example numbers.
Say that gay people are 15% of people. I just pulled that number out of my ass for the example. If that's the case, then:
- 15% of men who aren't transgendered (feel like males inside or don't care) like males.
- 15% of men who are transgendered (feel like females inside) like males.
It's somewhat rarer to undergo an operation when it "turns you gay", because there is still a lot of sexualism against gay people and it's less understood. But here I'm not counting people who undergo surgery only (that would be transexuals).
If you hang out on transgendered forums and stuff, most of them are straight for their biological gender. Just like most non-transgendered people are straight for their biological gender.
Just throwing it out there, because that kind of association annoys me. Lots of transvestites and stuff are straight. But there is that idea that if a (biological) male is effeminate, or if a (biological) female is manly, then they're gay. That's stupid. That's so not how it works.
*slinks back to work on stuff*
But to ultimately answer your question simply, they're just doing what they feel to be comfortable for them.
I can tell you right now that this is as untrue as saying gay people are gay because of child abuse. Which is horribly untrue.
Translation of the written parts (although most of it is visual):
EDIT: ok, image version now
2 sexes
and no other > and all the others
Done with gender now
(This video is opposed to the concept of binary gender, as you might have guessed).
...and I like Cooking Mama...
Anyway, gurlz.
One time I wanted a remote controlled Jurassic Park jeep for Christmas and they got me some dollhouse thing I didn't ask for, which looked as if it was the same amount of money. I believed in Santa then so I also believed their excuse. I'm still mad about that years later!!
I hope you at least saved the dollhouse so you could buy the Jurassic Park jeep and run the dollhouse over with it
It's also really annoying how some of the meats cook at vastly different speeds, chicken always seems to take ages. And I've never mastered any og the bloody gelatin desserts, I always break them when trying to get them out of the mould.
My parents wouldn't let me have the boys toys that I wanted either. I wanted the Lego pirate ship, but that was a boys toy so I got a Lego pony riding school. I wanted the Playmobil pirate ship, that was still for boys, I got a Playmobil pony riding school. The first non-girly thing I ever managed to talk them into getting me as a child was HeroQuest when I was 10. Unfortunately for my parents, that's what got me into Warhammer.
Also, I now own a Playmobil pirate ship AND a Lego pirate ship. Ha.
Shit, I never realized that.
And we say we don't need feminism anymore.
Of course, I can't think back that much. The oldest gifts are remember are board games, books and videogames, which are genderless anyways.
No, Lego was a male toy if the theme was something like pirates or castles. Things like houses and pony stables were fine. At least that's how my parents seemed to judge it anyway.
Feminism aims to promote equal rights for both sexes. It's not biased towards women, like most people think.
Same here, actually. I mean, it's not like Tope and I didn't get girly gifts back then, but we also got a lot of science kits too, which I guess is androgynous. I also remember getting Metroid Prime for my twelfth birthday. :>
...I still need to beat that game.
Anyway, time for a story I read in the paper some time ago:
* There was a boy, but when he was born something went wrong and his weenie got burned. No problem, the doctors said, we give him a vagina, you give him girly hormones and raise him as a girl, and since the gender difference is only created during the early years, he will never know otherwise.
But, obviously, this plan backfired, as the guy wanted to do guyly stuff, was a wee bit more aggressive than the other girls, eventually got attracted to girls and stuff like that. And thus his parents told him the thruth, and he had to do some more surgery to be turned a "guy" again.
To be honest, I think the name really doesn't help.
It was just my mom, my dad just agreed with her most of the time to keep her sane. Now they don't really care what I do, though my mom still has godawful crazy moments when I don't wear make-up or earrings to a party. No seriously, she spazzes out. One time we were having a fight over it. She wanted me to wear make-up to a family party, which we have like thirty of every year!!!! I didn't feel like wearing make-up and she threw a fit and I asked her why it matters and she's all "wearing make-up shows respect in looking presentable!" Really, mom, REALLY? Gee I wonder if grandma is going to burst into tears and shout "oh god my granddaughter doesn't respect me what is the point of living!!" when she sees me and my offensive makeup-less face.
Yup. Sometimes I go crazy when I keep seeing "hurr hurr feminists" being used in a negative fashion. Feminists =/= Extremists.
I find the idea that male faces are presentable as is but female faces need to be disguised to be presentable offensive, honestly.
I had a whole fight with my own mother when I fought for makeup rights lol. I must have been 14 or so, and she insisted that wearing make-up was sexual so she wouldn't let me do it until I was of age, and I fought for the right to wear make-up.
And I won! Then I didn't wear make-up, and still don't. I was never interested in doing it, I just wanted the right to do it. Matter of principle.
She never seemed to understand that, though.
I mean, I rather see a girl 'pure' than with smudge all over her face...
Makes one wonder why so many girls use it. Or maybe my friends group is "weird"?
No, I know more guys who dislike it than guys who like it. It seems that females are the ones who insist that other females (and/or themselves) should wear it.
As far as I know it originates in prostitutes wearing it to pretend they were aroused (biology lesson, guys, blood flows to a woman's lips - all of them - when she's aroused).
But how it turned into the "norm", I have absolutely no idea.
:O
Like "trendy" fashion - guys don't care, women just wear it for other women.
Yeah, exactly.
People pretend that our condition is fine right now, women have almost the same rights as men(equal pay and topfree equality are some examples).
But look at billboards and magazines. around 70% of those pictures are women trying to "look pretty".
Men's magazines have pictures of women.
Women's magazines have articles on how to look like the women in men's magazines.
Weird, isn't it?
About gender roles, people say that a man can never replace a "motherly figure."
That women need to be housewives because they're better with children.
Now, what about male gay couples?
I have quite a few pets, and I'm pretty motherly with them. I'd say I wouldn't be a too-bad mother with human children, either.
Now for the men's side, they're expected to not show their emotions, or they'll be "pussies".
They're expected to hit on every single woman they pass by on the street.
They're supposed to be "strong", with clearly visible abdominals(which, by the way, is not natural).
It's only the increase in the amount of us "geeky dudes" in the last 20 years that have reduced this stereotype.
I could go on, but you get my point.