It makes a massive difference. Halo's SPARTANs would not be great adventure game protagonists, despite being great FPS protagonists, because their means of solving problems never involves something that could be used as a puzzle. Use gun on alien is great when you're playing an action game, but not when you're trying to test the players' cleverness.
And yet the Star Wars First Person games with Jedi - namely Jedi Knight, Mysteries of the Sith, Jedi Outcast & Academy, The Phantom Menace, LEGO Star Wars do not suffer from 'use mind trick on everyone' / 'cut hole in every door' solutions to every obstacle. And if they don't suffer for it, I don't know why an adventure game would either. Combat would have to be handled in a different manner to action games, but games such as Full Throttle and Fate of Atlantis seemed to have managed with an 'action hero' lead character just fine.
So I don't see why you would assume an Jedi Adventure Game could never work, due to there arbitrary puzzle solutions you've dreamt up.
Anyone who says something can't be done in a situation like this (the inability to use a particular type of hero for an adventure game) simply hasn't thought enough about the way such a game could work.
Very bad news indeed, Darrell Rodriguez was the best thing to happen to Lucasarts in a very long time, if true that members of his management team are also leaving is a troublesome sign.
I dont know if it's really true or not but I read somewhere from some former Lucas employees that the Lucas empire (not just games) is very highly political office wise, people are forced out of jobs for simply not knowing the right person or kissing sufficient ass etc. Mr Rodriguez may have fallen fowl of this with someone higher up the chain at Lucasfilm.
I can only hope that whoever pulled the trigger on Darrell Rodriguez has at least the sense to a hire a games industry veteran with a good track record and not another soulless Jim Ward.
Though I suspect experienced management may eye Lucasarts with suspicion with good reason over these antics.
Anyone who says something can't be done in a situation like this (the inability to use a particular type of hero for an adventure game) simply hasn't thought enough about the way such a game could work.
No, because it actually is quite impossible. You think about what it is to be a Jedi, especially post-Prequel trilogy, and it's a very action-based role. It's a very powerful role. Adventure games involve characters who need to be clever at least a large majority of the time. Indiana Jones has to sneak, he has to figure out ancient puzzles during the course of the films, and he often is faced with foes that are a good deal stronger than him or that outnumber him greatly. This is not something a Jedi gets.
What about a Jedi on a spy mission? They can't just turn and kill everyone, they'd ruin the mission if they're found out. They'd have to find ways to prevent the villains to do their villain thing, but in such a way that they're not suspected to be the one responsible.
It makes a massive difference. Halo's SPARTANs would not be great adventure game protagonists, despite being great FPS protagonists, because their means of solving problems never involves something that could be used as a puzzle. Use gun on alien is great when you're playing an action game, but not when you're trying to test the players' cleverness.
You don't really think outside the box, do you? Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be.
I could be about a padawan who is suddenly thrown in an adventure. So he does not have full use of his powers and would be more likley to use his brain then combat.
Avistew has the right idea. Just set limits and rules in the game. "Whoops! My light saber just fell down that deep, dark never-ending crevice!" or else just break it. It's relatively simple to imagine reasons to put some limits on their powers and abilities.
Edit: Some people are just too stubborn to accept they're wrong. *(Looking at you Roger Ebert.)*
I suppose having a non-Jedi as the main character would bypass the awkward question of why you can't just solve the puzzle by whipping out a lightsaber and killing everybody...
Because it's an adventure game?
It's like asking why Sam&Max just don't solve their cases by killing everyone... or Guybrush puzzles an item instead of stabbing the owner...
(killing everyone isn't really the Jedi-way anyway)
You don't really think outside the box, do you? Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be.
And just because something is possible doesn't mean it's by any means a good idea. I'm perfectly willing to try thinking outside the box, but nobody seems to really offer any good ideas on how you could play as a Jedi, feel as though you were playing as a Jedi, and still have a game that could be chiefly puzzle-based.
Indeed. I think he just posts the first contrary thing that pops into his head, then spends the rest of his time defending it vigorously.
While that sounds like a fun game, and I'd probably be fairly good at it, I'm going to assure you that as a fan of Star Wars and Adventure Games I've given the idea of a Star Wars adventure enough thought to have formed my own view of the matter without needing to resort to "What do these guys say? Yeah, I think the opposite of that."
Avistew has the right idea. Just set limits and rules in the game. "Whoops! My light saber just fell down that deep, dark never-ending crevice!" or else just break it. It's relatively simple to imagine reasons to put some limits on their powers and abilities.
This is the post I'm going to reply to, but this is for all ideas that involve actively gimping Jedi characters: Why would someone want to play that?
When making a video game, you should think "What would it be like to play this type of character in the genre I am going for?" If you are forced to remove attributes of that character type in order to shoehorn them into the genre, you're doing it wrong. If you're playing a Jedi, you should feel as though you're playing a Jedi, not like you're playing some regular guy who happens to wear pretty robes. You're not thinking outside the box this way, you're not thinking of ways that a Jedi would work. You're thinking of ways to truncate the Jedi into something that has worked before. And while that may technically work for the question of "can we shove a Jedi into this video game genre?", it's by no means a good idea, because the end result is a Jedi that you do not believe is a Jedi from the way they play.
Edit: Some people are just too stubborn to accept they're wrong. *(Looking at you Roger Ebert.)*
It's nice that you felt the need to go back into your post in order to make sure I knew that you thought what I have to say here has absolutely no validity.
Because it's an adventure game?
It's like asking why Sam&Max just don't solve their cases by killing everyone... or Guybrush puzzles an item instead of stabbing the owner...
Because these are very comedic, fourth wall-breaking universes, you can get away with a good deal more nonsensical barriers with a side gag, like Sam and Max is constantly forced to do every time you use the gun. And because the essence of being Sam and Max or Guybrush Threepwood doesn't require combat. Guybrush CAN stab them, but we don't really believe that he WOULD. Sam and Max CAN shoot, but we can believe that they'd go through some elaborate puzzle instead, and they have gags set aside to cover their asses in the gunfire department. Does anyone really BELIEVE though, that a Jedi would forgo both the lightsaber and Force power options in order to instead run off and set up an elaborate Rube Goldberg machine? Is it more or less believable than the same thing being done by a smuggler, or even a bounty hunter?
(killing everyone isn't really the Jedi-way anyway)
It isn't? I was pretty sure that Jedi did plenty of killing throughout both trilogies. Yoda and Obi-Wan, the seasoned Jedi of the original trilogy, planned for Luke to kill his father and the Emperor. It was only Luke, not the Jedi as a whole, that found the third option of redemption.
I'm just saying they'd probably use the lightsaber as some kind of last resort, just like someone with a gun ideally doesn't shoot at doors until they open if he can try and find a key for them.
I don't see why they'd have to forgo the force. Powers worked for the Devil's Playhouse.
Sincerely, unless we're playing a Sith, the "uses the lightsaber to kill everyone" sounds very anti-Jedi to me.
I'm just saying they'd probably use the lightsaber as some kind of last resort, just like someone with a gun ideally doesn't shoot at doors until they open if he can try and find a key for them.
I don't see why they'd have to forgo the force. Powers worked for the Devil's Playhouse.
Powers worked for The Devil's Playhouse because they have been devised for puzzle-solving. Star Wars handles powers somewhat more differently.
I don't know how most people see Jedi, but I just don't see them solving puzzles. Action games, or even stealth games would be better suited to them, because the powers they have aren't really puzzle-ready. Their powers of premonition are...sketchy at best, they can jump high I guess(useful?), they can hit things accurately, they can push and pull things, and they can run really fast sometimes I guess. Oh, and they can turn into ghosts, but that trick only works once. Also they can use a lightsaber without cutting off their own arms.
Another problem with Jedi in a puzzle-based game is that the majority of good Jedi-specific puzzles have been used by the various third-person action games and RPGs over the years.
Sincerely, unless we're playing a Sith, the "uses the lightsaber to kill everyone" sounds very anti-Jedi to me.
I don't see why. The original Trilogy Jedi kill people with their sabers damn near constantly. If they're not killing with sabers, they're killing with lasers in other forms or big metal doors. Yoda, while not someone that actively killed during the original trilogy, advocated killing the Emperor and Vader.
I'm not seeing they're against killing or above it. I'm thinking their first solution doesn't seem to be "barge in, kill everyone". They only seem to do that when cornered or to stop a main villain that's a menace for the galaxy. They do a fair bit of sneaking around, disabling devices, disguising and things like that that are totally compatible with adventure games.
And as I said, if the plot itself is that they're on a spy mission as a double agent, they'd have to be more discreet.
Honestly, a Jedi adventure game doesn't seem more unlikely to me than a James Bond adventure game. They both can do action or spying, and if a James Bond game focused on using his gadgets and being all spy-ey, I wouldn't keep asking myself "why isn't he shooting at everyone?"
Honestly, if they could make an adventure game out of full throttle, with a hero who hits first and asks questions later, they can with people who are clever and resourceful and not prone to getting carried away by their feelings and acting rashly.
And just because something is possible doesn't mean it's by any means a good idea. I'm perfectly willing to try thinking outside the box, but nobody seems to really offer any good ideas on how you could play as a Jedi, feel as though you were playing as a Jedi, and still have a game that could be chiefly puzzle-based.
Like I said. Make the powers come gradually. Because the character is inexperienced and is still learning, he doesn't use powers or know how to, regardless of being led by the Force, because he isn't a full fledged Jedi yet. As far as I recall, Luke didn't even act like a Jedi until Return of the Jedi; until then he lacked knowledge, understanding, and ability.
This is the post I'm going to reply to, but this is for all ideas that involve actively gimping Jedi characters: Why would someone want to play that?
When making a video game, you should think "What would it be like to play this type of character in the genre I am going for?" If you are forced to remove attributes of that character type in order to shoehorn them into the genre, you're doing it wrong. If you're playing a Jedi, you should feel as though you're playing a Jedi, not like you're playing some regular guy who happens to wear pretty robes. You're not thinking outside the box this way, you're not thinking of ways that a Jedi would work. You're thinking of ways to truncate the Jedi into something that has worked before. And while that may technically work for the question of "can we shove a Jedi into this video game genre?", it's by no means a good idea, because the end result is a Jedi that you do not believe is a Jedi from the way they play.
It's not about, "ooh look at me I have pretty powers therefore my powers and magical abilities is what makes me fun and engaging". The character, his conflicts, his goals, his world; those are the things that make him fun and engaging. What do you even consider a "Jedi" anyway? A Jedi is the person in tune with the Force who is on the side of good. That's the basic idea. A Jedi isn't just "mr. super wizard who can destroy and annihilate anything in his path" like the second trilogy made them out to be; they are characters who have to learn to deal with their powers and have to realize their destinies and keep from being seduced by the Dark Side. Jedis are not action driven, they are story and character development driven. When they are action driven, they tend to suck. Jedis do not have all of their powers from the beginning, their powers come gradually as they grow in the Force. Look at Obi Wan Kenobi. He was as powerful as Darth Vader yet as an old man how often did he use any Jedi powers other than the mind trick. This is mostly what he did. He bartered a ship; trained Luke a bit; sneaked past guards, shut down a reactor (I think I forget what that was), then briefly fought Vader and died. There's lots of room for adventure game puzzles in there. What did Luke do in the first movie? He had to fix R2-D2, find Obi Wan in the desert, follow Obi Wans instructions, rescue the princess (last I checked he did this without the help of force push, force lightning, mind tricks, etc.), escape from the trash compactor, swing across a gap with the princess, and destroy the death star, and throughout the movie he used his lightsaber how many times again? Not very many. In fact Luke rarely used his lightsaber outside of battles with Vader. When he did, he didn't just use it for stupid reasons like "open door". You're acting like a lightsaber/The Force is a Jedi's Swiss Army Knife, and that's not the case. Most of the time, especially with a naive character like Luke, they don't even know what all they CAN DO until they have to overcome overwhelming odds. You're acting like you wouldn't even want to play as a Jedi who didn't immediately have his powers and was a tear it up badass whether he was a good character with actual development or not. Are you really that shallow?
I'm not seeing they're against killing or above it. I'm thinking their first solution doesn't seem to be "barge in, kill everyone". They only seem to do that when cornered or to stop a main villain that's a menace for the galaxy.
I guess I can see your point with this, but it seems to me that if you were going to play a Jedi then you'd generally want to play as one that used the lightsaber and the powers. Otherwise, why not make the hero some non-Jedi guy, you know?
They do a fair bit of sneaking around, disabling devices, disguising and things like that that are totally compatible with adventure games.
And as I said, if the plot itself is that they're on a spy mission as a double agent, they'd have to be more discreet.
It sounds more like a Star Wars stealth game than a Star Wars Adventure(and then it would be best starred by a Bothan Spy, but I can at least see a Jedi in the role). Does it really seem like a puzzle game? It's a non/low-combat narrative structure, but does that make the idea ripe for puzzles?
Honestly, a Jedi adventure game doesn't seem more unlikely to me than a James Bond adventure game. They both can do action or spying, and if a James Bond game focused on using his gadgets and being all spy-ey, I wouldn't keep asking myself "why isn't he shooting at everyone?"
It seems to me that Bond is a good deal more likely as an adventure game hero. His gadget loadout can be customized a great deal toward puzzle-solving, conversation puzzles can be used to give players the feeling of having Bond's charisma, and he's by no means more powerful than a normal human being.
Honestly, if they could make an adventure game out of full throttle, with a hero who hits first and asks questions later, they can with people who are clever and resourceful and not prone to getting carried away by their feelings and acting rashly.
For people who aren't prone to getting carried away by their feelings and acting rashly, they sure do end up doing that a lot in the movies. =P
Oooh! Fawful has a compelling, if somewhat snarky and sarcastic, post! I like this one.
Like I said. Make the powers come gradually. Because the character is inexperienced and is still learning, he doesn't use powers or know how to, regardless of being led by the Force, because he isn't a full fledged Jedi yet. As far as I recall, Luke didn't even act like a Jedi until Return of the Jedi; until then he lacked knowledge, understanding, and ability.
It's not about, "ooh look at me I have pretty powers therefore my powers and magical abilities is what makes me fun and engaging". The character, his conflicts, his goals, his world; those are the things that make him fun and engaging.
From a gameplay perspective, you have to consider "What is it like to play as a Jedi?" If your game structure hinders what it is to be a Jedi("Throw away his lightsaber! Make him weak in The Force!), then maybe the gameplay style does not suit the character archetype. It doesn't mean a character cannot be engaging without powers, it just means that you need to shape your gameplay around the scenario you're building, not the other way around. This is part of the reason Superman games have been so terrible, and this is part of the reason Batman: Arkham Asylum and the Spider-Man video games have been so strongly praised: The latter two examples have gameplay that makes you believe that you are these character types, that you have their full range of abilities. They didn't take away Spider-Man's web-slinging ability to keep him on the ground. They didn't take away Batman's gadgets to let him fit into an all-out brawler.
What do you even consider a "Jedi" anyway? A Jedi is the person in tune with the Force who is on the side of good. That's the basic idea.
You're explaining the idea from the wrong perspective, though. When making interactive entertainment, as opposed to passive entertainment, the question for your protagonist isn't "Who is this character on screen, what is his role in the story?" At least, that's not the PRIMARY question. The real question is "What is it like to be this character? What is it like to inhabit his life? To have all of his or her abilities and restrictions?"
A Jedi isn't just "mr. super wizard who can destroy and annihilate anything in his path" like the second trilogy made them out to be; they are characters who have to learn to deal with their powers and have to realize their destinies and keep from being seduced by the Dark Side. Jedis are not action driven, they are story and character development driven.
Which is too bad, because you can't make a puzzle out of dealing with powers, you can't make a puzzle out of destiny, you can't make a puzzle out of the seduction of the Dark Side. You can make a game out of lightsaber combat, you can make a game out of force powers and lightsabers applied in a mission structure, but I'm still lost as to how you can really make a Jedi puzzle in such a way that you don't somehow undermine the Jedi. Now, if your'e just trying to tell a story, that's cute, but a video game requires you to have gameplay.
When they are action driven, they tend to suck. Jedis do not have all of their powers from the beginning, their powers come gradually as they grow in the Force.
A progression system, much more suited to an RPG or ActionRPG than an adventure, and certainly not a puzzle of any shape or form.
Look at Obi Wan Kenobi. He was as powerful as Darth Vader yet as an old man how often did he use any Jedi powers other than the mind trick. This is mostly what he did. He bartered a ship; trained Luke a bit; sneaked past guards, shut down a reactor (I think I forget what that was), then briefly fought Vader and died. There's lots of room for adventure game puzzles in there.
Where?
He bartered for a ship...using credits he didn't have on him at the time. The biggest part of the puzzle was "I guess we'll have to sell a Speeder". You could, I suppose, have a Jedi running about and trying to scrape up bits of cash, but it feels somewhat disingenuous to me.
He trained Luke by turning on a remote. Doesn't seem all that, um, puzzle-y.
He sneaked past guards...mainly using the mind trick to make the guards not notice his movement through the corridors.
What he was shutting down was the Death Star's tractor beam. He did this by turning knobs. This is the most likely puzzle out of the bunch, with a puzzle of sorts to power on or off a machine. This has been done a few times in other Star Wars games, and it's hardly compelling, but it's possible.
Neither fighting Vader nor dying seems like a good puzzle to me.
What did Luke do in the first movie? He had to fix R2-D2, find Obi Wan in the desert, follow Obi Wans instructions, rescue the princess (last I checked he did this without the help of force push, force lightning, mind tricks, etc.), escape from the trash compactor, swing across a gap with the princess, and destroy the death star, and throughout the movie he used his lightsaber how many times again? Not very many. In fact Luke rarely used his lightsaber outside of battles with Vader. When he did, he didn't just use it for stupid reasons like "open door". You're acting like a lightsaber/The Force is a Jedi's Swiss Army Knife, and that's not the case. Most of the time, especially with a naive character like Luke, they don't even know what all they CAN DO until they have to overcome overwhelming odds.
He didn't actually fix R2. And do you want to do droid maintenance puzzles?
He didn't find Obi-Wan, he got smacked over the head and Obi-Wan found him.
Ooh, follow instructions! That requires a clever mind indeed. I once saw a Dora the Explorer episode that asked its viewers to follow instructions.
Again, sneaking around the Death Star finds itself the best capable for a puzzle, and again it feels more like a task better suited for a stealth game.
Escaping from the trash compactor, also known as screaming like a little bitch until R2 saved his ass.
Swing across a gap does not sound like a puzzle. We saw a bit of "I can grapple onto that", but that's not really a sustainable puzzle structure for a puzzle-based game.
Destroying the Death Star was a feat of agility, piloting, evasion, and(finally) faith. None of these are puzzles. These are well-suited to an action game, which is why we go down the Death Star trench a couple dozen times over across various games in action or flight sim titles.
Don't try to tell me I don't know anything about the Star Wars films and how they progress. I watch them several times a year, I own the movies many times over(often multiple times in the same format), and they're quite easily my favorite films of all time. And by that I of course mean the Original Trilogy...I don't even own the Prequels on video. I've also played through the Star Wars films on just about every game system I've ever owned. I have seen what happens when you put Jedi where they don't belong, in that case in a fighting game that pits them ostensibly as equals against Leia and a lone stormtrooper.
You're acting like you wouldn't even want to play as a Jedi who didn't immediately have his powers and was a tear it up badass whether he was a good character with actual development or not. Are you really that shallow?
I'm acting as though I wouldn't want to play as a Jedi who, once the game designers were done with him, did not play or progress(gameplay-wise) at all differently than a non-Jedi would. If I play as a Jedi, I expect to pick up a lightsaber, I expect to use powers. Luke was using his saber to open doors(the bottom hatch of an AT-AT), killing a Wampa with his lightsaber, battling Vader with his lightsaber, lifting things into the air, seeing the future, meeting a spectral vision of Vader, calling out to Leia, and being able to throw and pull during the course of the second film. In the first, he was able to block blaster bolts and fire an impossible proton torpedo shot, even though he'd had all of maybe a few minutes' training. And, of course, in the third film, he had the full Jedi treatment going, with athletics and lightsaber-wielding prowess up the wazoo.
Don't tell me that people want to play as a Jedi but don't want to have powers or lightsabers. Don't pretend that thinking that lightsabers and force powers have a lot to do with being a Jedi character is somehow shallow. These things are the point of playing as a Jedi, if you aren't going to have them then there is no reason for you to be a Jedi.
Ooooh... we can't think outside of the movie? I am certainly glad Obsidian wasn't as obnoxious in that, otherwise KOTOR2 wouldn't be as great as it is (greater if LA didn't butcher it )...
Jedi's are mostly diplomats. Holders of peace. Why they aren't displayed as that in the movies? Because it makes for some pretty boring movies. However, it's far more suitable for books or... adventure games. Ever read any of the EU books? I am sure you would be more perceptive to Jedi adventure games then.
Jedi != Murder everyone in sight. Not even Sith are like that (for example, I watched ESB yesterday, and Vader prevented a Stormtrooper from killing Chewbacca). A lightsaber isn't going to help much in peaceconferences. A lightsaber wont help solving a murder case. A lightsaber wont help two species make peace with each other.
Take for example you are supposed to find some evidence in a warehouse. It's guarded by civilians. No-one is supposed to know you were there at all.
In pure adventure style, you could create a distraction, and then lure the guard away (LS).
Or you could find some means to power up the gate, then lure the guard to open the gate, getting killed (DS). Wouldn't that make for an unique adventure, 2 such paths?
RATHER DASHING: "Why put electricity on the gate. LIGHTSABER, man... LIGHTSABER.
HASSAT HUNTER: "Yeah, and what looks more like an accident to you... a fried guard or one sliced up with a lightsaber. The second might be a bit more telling you were there."
Yeah, an adventure with Jedi is certainly possible. Suggesting otherwise is just being stubourn for no reason. Maybe it would suit "Han Solo" types better, but that doesn't make it impossible to actually have a good Jedi adventure.
From a gameplay perspective, you have to consider "What is it like to play as a Jedi?" If your game structure hinders what it is to be a Jedi("Throw away his lightsaber! Make him weak in The Force!), then maybe the gameplay style does not suit the character archetype. It doesn't mean a character cannot be engaging without powers, it just means that you need to shape your gameplay around the scenario you're building, not the other way around. This is part of the reason Superman games have been so terrible, and this is part of the reason Batman: Arkham Asylum and the Spider-Man video games have been so strongly praised: The latter two examples have gameplay that makes you believe that you are these character types, that you have their full range of abilities. They didn't take away Spider-Man's web-slinging ability to keep him on the ground. They didn't take away Batman's gadgets to let him fit into an all-out brawler.
You're explaining the idea from the wrong perspective, though. When making interactive entertainment, as opposed to passive entertainment, the question for your protagonist isn't "Who is this character on screen, what is his role in the story?" At least, that's not the PRIMARY question. The real question is "What is it like to be this character? What is it like to inhabit his life? To have all of his or her abilities and restrictions?"
Which is too bad, because you can't make a puzzle out of dealing with powers, you can't make a puzzle out of destiny, you can't make a puzzle out of the seduction of the Dark Side. You can make a game out of lightsaber combat, you can make a game out of force powers and lightsabers applied in a mission structure, but I'm still lost as to how you can really make a Jedi puzzle in such a way that you don't somehow undermine the Jedi. Now, if your'e just trying to tell a story, that's cute, but a video game requires you to have gameplay.
A progression system, much more suited to an RPG or ActionRPG than an adventure, and certainly not a puzzle of any shape or form.
How about if it was done like Quest For Glory 2?
Where?
He bartered for a ship...using credits he didn't have on him at the time. The biggest part of the puzzle was "I guess we'll have to sell a Speeder". You could, I suppose, have a Jedi running about and trying to scrape up bits of cash, but it feels somewhat disingenuous to me.
He trained Luke by turning on a remote. Doesn't seem all that, um, puzzle-y.
He sneaked past guards...mainly using the mind trick to make the guards not notice his movement through the corridors.
What he was shutting down was the Death Star's tractor beam. He did this by turning knobs. This is the most likely puzzle out of the bunch, with a puzzle of sorts to power on or off a machine. This has been done a few times in other Star Wars games, and it's hardly compelling, but it's possible.
Neither fighting Vader nor dying seems like a good puzzle to me.
Yeah but once again you aren't trying to think outside the box. Hasn't it occurred to you at all that for an adventure game the writing and rules would be changed? There would be a puzzle to get the money to pay for passage, or perhaps instead of money Han said, look Jabba has it out for me, could you do this or this or stop this guy or do this thing for me in order to get Jabba off my back for a bit?
No Obi Wan's part in the training couldn't lend itself to any puzzles, but Luke's could. You could have him wander around the Falcon doing various tasks to build his Jedi focus and powers, or whatever, or just to please Obi Wan because he's a demanding asshole, I don't know.
The thing is, the Death Star could be a BIG PLACE in a video game. You could have various puzzles requiring more than just the mind trick to get guards out of your way. Shutting down the reactor could be changed from just turning knobs to actually needing this one guard's passkey, or maybe three passkeys you have to find throughout the Death Star, combined with some sort of keycode. There you would have even more puzzles needed in order to find those high ranking troopers and somehow get their codes stealthily. Quest For Glory 2 had plenty of stealth parts that utilized adventure game mechanics and gameplay.
As far as fighting Vader, that would probably just be a simple cutscene.
He didn't actually fix R2. And do you want to do droid maintenance puzzles?
He didn't find Obi-Wan, he got smacked over the head and Obi-Wan found him.
Ooh, follow instructions! That requires a clever mind indeed. I once saw a Dora the Explorer episode that asked its viewers to follow instructions.
Again, sneaking around the Death Star finds itself the best capable for a puzzle, and again it feels more like a task better suited for a stealth game.
Escaping from the trash compactor, also known as screaming like a little bitch until R2 saved his ass.
Swing across a gap does not sound like a puzzle. We saw a bit of "I can grapple onto that", but that's not really a sustainable puzzle structure for a puzzle-based game.
Destroying the Death Star was a feat of agility, piloting, evasion, and(finally) faith. None of these are puzzles. These are well-suited to an action game, which is why we go down the Death Star trench a couple dozen times over across various games in action or flight sim titles.
Droid maintenance. Let's see, R2 has something lodged in his casing! Uncle Owen has the tools! Fix such and such for Uncle Owen! Use such and such on such and such! Get tools! Fix R2! Get message.
Okay, now we have to follow R2! He's gone off on his own!
Escaping from the trash compactor could be changed so that Luke and Han have to manage to do it, and not R2.
EDIT: I had a point here, but I removed it because I felt it was too harsh.
I'm acting as though I wouldn't want to play as a Jedi who, once the game designers were done with him, did not play or progress(gameplay-wise) at all differently than a non-Jedi would. If I play as a Jedi, I expect to pick up a lightsaber, I expect to use powers. Luke was using his saber to open doors(the bottom hatch of an AT-AT), killing a Wampa with his lightsaber, battling Vader with his lightsaber, lifting things into the air, seeing the future, meeting a spectral vision of Vader, calling out to Leia, and being able to throw and pull during the course of the second film. In the first, he was able to block blaster bolts and fire an impossible proton torpedo shot, even though he'd had all of maybe a few minutes' training. And, of course, in the third film, he had the full Jedi treatment going, with athletics and lightsaber-wielding prowess up the wazoo.
Don't tell me that people want to play as a Jedi but don't want to have powers or lightsabers. Don't pretend that thinking that lightsabers and force powers have a lot to do with being a Jedi character is somehow shallow. These things are the point of playing as a Jedi, if you aren't going to have them then there is no reason for you to be a Jedi.
And all of his powers came gradually. He didn't have powers for most of A New Hope, and was he boring there? No. In Empire Strikes Back he had more powers come his way and became more powerful, but most of it took training, because at the beginning he couldn't even lift a ship out of the water. All of his training would lend itself well to in-game story progression and puzzles. You're acting like I'm saying he shouldn't have powers for the entire game. No, that's not it. I'm saying as the story progresses he should get his powers gradually. Guybrush couldn't swordfight when you first start Monkey Island, but after training a bit, he became the best on Melee Island. I bet if you had heard before the game was made that you'd have to go through tedious training just in order to learn how to use a sword, instead of just "stab pirate" you would have said this game is going to suck. How dare they make something so stupid. If they're making a game about a pirate, I expect to be able to pick up a sword to stab people, I expect to sack ports with my cannons, I expect to plunder ships on the high seas with my massive crew, and I expect to be able to shoot people with my muskets. This doesn't sound anything like a game about pirates, its just a game about a normal boring person. He might as well not even be a pirate. Come on.
If I'm feeling motivated tomorrow, I might split the Star Wars Adventure game parts of this discussion off into its own thread, leaving D-Rod the respect and discussion he deserves.
Kyrandia also had some kind of skill system that you had to be taught over time. Can't remember what exactly the respective crystal did, but it certainly worked.
Having never played an RPG before, I pretty much played Star Wars: KOTOR as a pure adventure game, paying no attention to RPG skill stats and very little to armour etc.
Went on quests, solved puzzles, ordered my Jedi and other companions around.
Kyrandia also had some kind of skill system that you had to be taught over time. Can't remember what exactly the respective crystal did, but it certainly worked.
I presume you mean the various gems on the Royal Amulet in the first game. Only the first two were actually named within the game itself.
The gold gem was Healing.
The purple gem was Will-O-Wisp.
The blue gem was never directly named, but it was basically a "dispel" effect.
The red gem was also unnamed, but it made the player character invisible.
I think Fawful has you there, Dashing. Making a Star Wars related point and click adventure game may sound a bit difficult to make if you control a character that has Force sensitivity, but it's not impossible or stupid. A certain amount of ingenuity on the part of the game designers could actually turn out a really fun game. Fawful has the right idea, and I just have to say that sometimes you sound like, rather than acknowledging the merit of opposing ideas, that you'd rather be stubborn and/or play devil's advocate just for the sake of maintaining an opposing viewpoint, even when it's about something trivial.
I presume you mean the various gems on the Royal Amulet in the first game. Only the first two were actually named within the game itself.
The gold gem was Healing.
The purple gem was Will-O-Wisp.
The blue gem was never directly named, but it was basically a "dispel" effect.
The red gem was also unnamed, but it made the player character invisible.
I presume you mean the various gems on the Royal Amulet in the first game. Only the first two were actually named within the game itself.
The gold gem was Healing.
The purple gem was Will-O-Wisp.
The blue gem was never directly named, but it was basically a "dispel" effect.
The red gem was also unnamed, but it made the player character invisible.
Pretty awful, I have little faith this will result in good things for adventure games. I felt like we got lucky with an executive who was actually for adventure games.
Of course, I was fearing Monkey Island: FPS anyway, but whatever.
Comments
So I don't see why you would assume an Jedi Adventure Game could never work, due to there arbitrary puzzle solutions you've dreamt up.
Anyone who says something can't be done in a situation like this (the inability to use a particular type of hero for an adventure game) simply hasn't thought enough about the way such a game could work.
I dont know if it's really true or not but I read somewhere from some former Lucas employees that the Lucas empire (not just games) is very highly political office wise, people are forced out of jobs for simply not knowing the right person or kissing sufficient ass etc. Mr Rodriguez may have fallen fowl of this with someone higher up the chain at Lucasfilm.
I can only hope that whoever pulled the trigger on Darrell Rodriguez has at least the sense to a hire a games industry veteran with a good track record and not another soulless Jim Ward.
Though I suspect experienced management may eye Lucasarts with suspicion with good reason over these antics.
You don't really think outside the box, do you? Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be.
Jedi aren't vandals or murderers, and they go on plenty of non-combat missions.
Edit: Some people are just too stubborn to accept they're wrong. *(Looking at you Roger Ebert.)*
It's like asking why Sam&Max just don't solve their cases by killing everyone... or Guybrush puzzles an item instead of stabbing the owner...
(killing everyone isn't really the Jedi-way anyway)
While that sounds like a fun game, and I'd probably be fairly good at it, I'm going to assure you that as a fan of Star Wars and Adventure Games I've given the idea of a Star Wars adventure enough thought to have formed my own view of the matter without needing to resort to "What do these guys say? Yeah, I think the opposite of that."
This is the post I'm going to reply to, but this is for all ideas that involve actively gimping Jedi characters: Why would someone want to play that?
When making a video game, you should think "What would it be like to play this type of character in the genre I am going for?" If you are forced to remove attributes of that character type in order to shoehorn them into the genre, you're doing it wrong. If you're playing a Jedi, you should feel as though you're playing a Jedi, not like you're playing some regular guy who happens to wear pretty robes. You're not thinking outside the box this way, you're not thinking of ways that a Jedi would work. You're thinking of ways to truncate the Jedi into something that has worked before. And while that may technically work for the question of "can we shove a Jedi into this video game genre?", it's by no means a good idea, because the end result is a Jedi that you do not believe is a Jedi from the way they play.
It's nice that you felt the need to go back into your post in order to make sure I knew that you thought what I have to say here has absolutely no validity.
Because these are very comedic, fourth wall-breaking universes, you can get away with a good deal more nonsensical barriers with a side gag, like Sam and Max is constantly forced to do every time you use the gun. And because the essence of being Sam and Max or Guybrush Threepwood doesn't require combat. Guybrush CAN stab them, but we don't really believe that he WOULD. Sam and Max CAN shoot, but we can believe that they'd go through some elaborate puzzle instead, and they have gags set aside to cover their asses in the gunfire department. Does anyone really BELIEVE though, that a Jedi would forgo both the lightsaber and Force power options in order to instead run off and set up an elaborate Rube Goldberg machine? Is it more or less believable than the same thing being done by a smuggler, or even a bounty hunter?
It isn't? I was pretty sure that Jedi did plenty of killing throughout both trilogies. Yoda and Obi-Wan, the seasoned Jedi of the original trilogy, planned for Luke to kill his father and the Emperor. It was only Luke, not the Jedi as a whole, that found the third option of redemption.
I don't see why they'd have to forgo the force. Powers worked for the Devil's Playhouse.
Sincerely, unless we're playing a Sith, the "uses the lightsaber to kill everyone" sounds very anti-Jedi to me.
I don't know how most people see Jedi, but I just don't see them solving puzzles. Action games, or even stealth games would be better suited to them, because the powers they have aren't really puzzle-ready. Their powers of premonition are...sketchy at best, they can jump high I guess(useful?), they can hit things accurately, they can push and pull things, and they can run really fast sometimes I guess. Oh, and they can turn into ghosts, but that trick only works once. Also they can use a lightsaber without cutting off their own arms.
Another problem with Jedi in a puzzle-based game is that the majority of good Jedi-specific puzzles have been used by the various third-person action games and RPGs over the years.
I don't see why. The original Trilogy Jedi kill people with their sabers damn near constantly. If they're not killing with sabers, they're killing with lasers in other forms or big metal doors. Yoda, while not someone that actively killed during the original trilogy, advocated killing the Emperor and Vader.
And as I said, if the plot itself is that they're on a spy mission as a double agent, they'd have to be more discreet.
Honestly, a Jedi adventure game doesn't seem more unlikely to me than a James Bond adventure game. They both can do action or spying, and if a James Bond game focused on using his gadgets and being all spy-ey, I wouldn't keep asking myself "why isn't he shooting at everyone?"
Honestly, if they could make an adventure game out of full throttle, with a hero who hits first and asks questions later, they can with people who are clever and resourceful and not prone to getting carried away by their feelings and acting rashly.
It's not about, "ooh look at me I have pretty powers therefore my powers and magical abilities is what makes me fun and engaging". The character, his conflicts, his goals, his world; those are the things that make him fun and engaging. What do you even consider a "Jedi" anyway? A Jedi is the person in tune with the Force who is on the side of good. That's the basic idea. A Jedi isn't just "mr. super wizard who can destroy and annihilate anything in his path" like the second trilogy made them out to be; they are characters who have to learn to deal with their powers and have to realize their destinies and keep from being seduced by the Dark Side. Jedis are not action driven, they are story and character development driven. When they are action driven, they tend to suck. Jedis do not have all of their powers from the beginning, their powers come gradually as they grow in the Force. Look at Obi Wan Kenobi. He was as powerful as Darth Vader yet as an old man how often did he use any Jedi powers other than the mind trick. This is mostly what he did. He bartered a ship; trained Luke a bit; sneaked past guards, shut down a reactor (I think I forget what that was), then briefly fought Vader and died. There's lots of room for adventure game puzzles in there. What did Luke do in the first movie? He had to fix R2-D2, find Obi Wan in the desert, follow Obi Wans instructions, rescue the princess (last I checked he did this without the help of force push, force lightning, mind tricks, etc.), escape from the trash compactor, swing across a gap with the princess, and destroy the death star, and throughout the movie he used his lightsaber how many times again? Not very many. In fact Luke rarely used his lightsaber outside of battles with Vader. When he did, he didn't just use it for stupid reasons like "open door". You're acting like a lightsaber/The Force is a Jedi's Swiss Army Knife, and that's not the case. Most of the time, especially with a naive character like Luke, they don't even know what all they CAN DO until they have to overcome overwhelming odds. You're acting like you wouldn't even want to play as a Jedi who didn't immediately have his powers and was a tear it up badass whether he was a good character with actual development or not. Are you really that shallow?
It sounds more like a Star Wars stealth game than a Star Wars Adventure(and then it would be best starred by a Bothan Spy, but I can at least see a Jedi in the role). Does it really seem like a puzzle game? It's a non/low-combat narrative structure, but does that make the idea ripe for puzzles?
It seems to me that Bond is a good deal more likely as an adventure game hero. His gadget loadout can be customized a great deal toward puzzle-solving, conversation puzzles can be used to give players the feeling of having Bond's charisma, and he's by no means more powerful than a normal human being.
For people who aren't prone to getting carried away by their feelings and acting rashly, they sure do end up doing that a lot in the movies. =P
Oooh! Fawful has a compelling, if somewhat snarky and sarcastic, post! I like this one.
Jedi's are mostly diplomats. Holders of peace. Why they aren't displayed as that in the movies? Because it makes for some pretty boring movies. However, it's far more suitable for books or... adventure games. Ever read any of the EU books? I am sure you would be more perceptive to Jedi adventure games then.
Jedi != Murder everyone in sight. Not even Sith are like that (for example, I watched ESB yesterday, and Vader prevented a Stormtrooper from killing Chewbacca). A lightsaber isn't going to help much in peaceconferences. A lightsaber wont help solving a murder case. A lightsaber wont help two species make peace with each other.
Take for example you are supposed to find some evidence in a warehouse. It's guarded by civilians. No-one is supposed to know you were there at all.
In pure adventure style, you could create a distraction, and then lure the guard away (LS).
Or you could find some means to power up the gate, then lure the guard to open the gate, getting killed (DS). Wouldn't that make for an unique adventure, 2 such paths?
RATHER DASHING: "Why put electricity on the gate. LIGHTSABER, man... LIGHTSABER.
HASSAT HUNTER: "Yeah, and what looks more like an accident to you... a fried guard or one sliced up with a lightsaber. The second might be a bit more telling you were there."
Yeah, an adventure with Jedi is certainly possible. Suggesting otherwise is just being stubourn for no reason. Maybe it would suit "Han Solo" types better, but that doesn't make it impossible to actually have a good Jedi adventure.
Yeah but once again you aren't trying to think outside the box. Hasn't it occurred to you at all that for an adventure game the writing and rules would be changed? There would be a puzzle to get the money to pay for passage, or perhaps instead of money Han said, look Jabba has it out for me, could you do this or this or stop this guy or do this thing for me in order to get Jabba off my back for a bit?
No Obi Wan's part in the training couldn't lend itself to any puzzles, but Luke's could. You could have him wander around the Falcon doing various tasks to build his Jedi focus and powers, or whatever, or just to please Obi Wan because he's a demanding asshole, I don't know.
The thing is, the Death Star could be a BIG PLACE in a video game. You could have various puzzles requiring more than just the mind trick to get guards out of your way. Shutting down the reactor could be changed from just turning knobs to actually needing this one guard's passkey, or maybe three passkeys you have to find throughout the Death Star, combined with some sort of keycode. There you would have even more puzzles needed in order to find those high ranking troopers and somehow get their codes stealthily. Quest For Glory 2 had plenty of stealth parts that utilized adventure game mechanics and gameplay.
As far as fighting Vader, that would probably just be a simple cutscene.
Droid maintenance. Let's see, R2 has something lodged in his casing! Uncle Owen has the tools! Fix such and such for Uncle Owen! Use such and such on such and such! Get tools! Fix R2! Get message.
Okay, now we have to follow R2! He's gone off on his own!
Escaping from the trash compactor could be changed so that Luke and Han have to manage to do it, and not R2.
EDIT: I had a point here, but I removed it because I felt it was too harsh.
And all of his powers came gradually. He didn't have powers for most of A New Hope, and was he boring there? No. In Empire Strikes Back he had more powers come his way and became more powerful, but most of it took training, because at the beginning he couldn't even lift a ship out of the water. All of his training would lend itself well to in-game story progression and puzzles. You're acting like I'm saying he shouldn't have powers for the entire game. No, that's not it. I'm saying as the story progresses he should get his powers gradually. Guybrush couldn't swordfight when you first start Monkey Island, but after training a bit, he became the best on Melee Island. I bet if you had heard before the game was made that you'd have to go through tedious training just in order to learn how to use a sword, instead of just "stab pirate" you would have said this game is going to suck. How dare they make something so stupid. If they're making a game about a pirate, I expect to be able to pick up a sword to stab people, I expect to sack ports with my cannons, I expect to plunder ships on the high seas with my massive crew, and I expect to be able to shoot people with my muskets. This doesn't sound anything like a game about pirates, its just a game about a normal boring person. He might as well not even be a pirate. Come on.
Would that be OK with those partaking?
Went on quests, solved puzzles, ordered my Jedi and other companions around.
It worked well, and I had huge fun.
I presume you mean the various gems on the Royal Amulet in the first game. Only the first two were actually named within the game itself.
The gold gem was Healing.
The purple gem was Will-O-Wisp.
The blue gem was never directly named, but it was basically a "dispel" effect.
The red gem was also unnamed, but it made the player character invisible.
Ah, yeah that's it. Lovely game. Series.
Yes! Reading this is making me want to pull the game off the shelf again.
Pretty awful, I have little faith this will result in good things for adventure games. I felt like we got lucky with an executive who was actually for adventure games.
Of course, I was fearing Monkey Island: FPS anyway, but whatever.