Did "Curse" destroy Monkey Island? Absolutely not! Curse, in my mind, is the best Monkey Island game to this day. Tales is my second favorite. Curse has the best graphics, most fitting for it, than any other Monkey Island game, including the newer ones. Curse's gameplay was also phenomenal, from the shooting the canon at the the beginning, to the puzzles, to the ship battles and insult sword fights. The humor was top-notch.
Some people have been saying it was goofier than the previous two? No it wasn't. Let's not forget that Monkey Island 1 had the grog machine in a used ship lot - kind of like a used car lot, - cannibals worried about their weight, a three headed monkey and more such nonsense that I can't even name it all. Two carried on that nonsense with cross-dressing Guybrush, a joke ending, and all sorts of other crazy things. The cartoony graphics really fit Monkey Island 3, more so than the realistic graphics fit Monkey Island 1.
Others have said that LeChuck was turned into a joke in Curse. Sorry to say, but LeChuck has always been a bit of a joke, a bit of a joke with a nasty side. Let's not foget that in 1 he was a bumbling fool quite a bit. And in 2, he had the audacity to turn his back on Guybrush to pick up a coin that fell out of the grog machine and to get his beard stuck in an elevator. What an idiot! So in Curse he wasn't much different.
Curse took the best things about Monkey Island 1 and 2 and extended upon them, in terms of witty dialogue, good humor, sword-fights, and so forth. I hope to see another game as good as Curse in the future.
Yeah, I really saw Curse as the natural next step for Monkey Island. Especially in regards to the ending that even the developers said wasn't the best idea in retrospect. I certainly understood that there were a number of ways you could interpret MI2's ending, but I think that Curse did a marvelous job at handling it.
The art style in Curse was also some of the best I've ever seen in the series, so I'll agree with you there. I say some, because if you've ever seen their concept artwork, that stuff is just awesome to look at. But gamewise, I'd have to say it was definitely the best looking of the games. It also gave us Guybrush's trademark voice, and I honestly can't see him sounding any differently.
If any game almost destroyed the series it was Escape. I hate the whole GRIME system compared to SCUMM. Between the Robot Monkey, Monkey Kombat and Herman Toothrot I don't know what's the worst. Probably Monkey Kombat. I'm glad it's barely mentioned in Tales. Curse brought life to the series, plus gave us Dominic and Earl.
Meant to mention this earlier.. but shortly after I made my earlier posts, I played through Escape From Monkey Island for the first time in years.
While the controls/user interface was abysmal, I didn't actually have much issue with the writing. Maybe it was because I knew about the displaying the Monkey Kombat short-cut, which shows you the poses and the buttons to press, but I didn't have any real problem with it. What bothered me the most about itwas trying to get all the poses and commands to unlock Monkey Invaders (which was pointless cause it seems unwinnable). The stuff with Herman Toothrot.. the way I see it, it kind of needed to happen.
We already knew that Elaine was the governor of the tri-island area. You'd think a governor couldn't go off having adventures unless someone was performing those duties. While it may not be the best solution, I think it allowed the writers a bit more freedom to have Elaine go with Guybrush on quests and such without having to needlessly explain why she can leave or what's going on back in the islands.
I guess I'm willing to cut it some slack because it was, technically, the first game in the series I played since I had a hard time finding the earlier games when I was younger.
EDIT: Although I must admit, the graphics are pretty bad, they're actually not all that bad compared to other games which came out around that time. Okage Shadow King, Simon the Sorcerer 3D, and so on. Escape was a fairly obscure game according to a lot of people I've talked to.. I myself only found it by sheer luck at a used game shop. Such games often tend to be below par on visual prowess. Not really a proper excuse, but it could go a ways to explaining it. Don't forget that Sam & Max: Freelance Police was also being developed around this time, and how it was cancelled. For all we know, they simply didn't have a whole lot of money or time to make the game look as good as they could.
Curse has not destroyed anything, it just set a new tone to the MI Universe. You can like that or not, for me it was a great Adventure Game even if Monkey Island 2 is still my favorite.
Would I buy a Special Edition with higher resolution backgrounds and better sound quality? Sure, I do love the Art in this game.
Curse was my first monkey island game but I do remember my older brother playing mi2 and thinking that the box art was rad as hell. Although due to my young age I didn't see the appeal until years later when I played it myself . But Curse in my opinion brought the monkey island universe to life in a way it's predecessors did not with it's colourful atmosphere, dialogue and characters.
Curse is a fantastic game, no way around it. But it took the series in a new direction... whereas the first two blended a more serious tone with comedy, Curse became all cartoon comedy. Though Blood Island is very remniscent of the darkness of MI2, as a whole the game felt more cartoony than it needed be. I also hated the Guybrush design from day 1. He suddenly became tall-and-slim, with a huge nose (or none at all, depending on the light), where in the first two games he was probably closer to Michael J Fox in size.
I love the first two games more than anything, and Curse felt off for me from the very first time I played it, despite being incredibly hyped by it. But I still loved it and will always cherish it on a level above most other adventure games.
No offence but this whole thread is ridiculous. I mean Curse was, and is, immensely popular, advanced the story well, and while Ron Gilbert didn't work on it he still accepts the game.
But it' not ridiculous because of that. It's ridiculous because no MI game DESTROYED the series. To destroy it, MI would either have to have become trash (much like a certain 20 year old cartoon TV show) or would have to have been stopped being made due to loss of fans.
MI's not trash, it's the same now as it's always been and while there is no game planned MI hasn't lost any fans. If anything the last MI game made MI have even MORE fans.
The only game that came remotely close to DESTROYING MI was Escape (which also nearly destroyed all adventure games), but overall none of them ever did destroy it.
Curse is a fantastic game, no way around it. But it took the series in a new direction... whereas the first two blended a more serious tone with comedy, Curse became all cartoon comedy.
The seriousness of the first two is highly overstated.
The seriousness of the first two is highly overstated.
I know they're not really serious, but they give the illusion of having a more serious tone and hid the comedy better. Curse made it much more evident that it was a comedy, and Escape took that element to the extremes (I have no problem with self-parody, but there's a difference between that and disrespecting it's legacy). Tales was more in line with Curse again.
It may be something as simple as Curse onwards having speech and more cartoony graphics, but the reason is completely irrelevant since it's the outcome that counts. And the outcome was that the illusion of a more serious tone disappeared after MI2. .
Just to be clear, I don't agree that the Curse destroyed Monkey Island, that's ridiculous. I do believe, however, that Curse CHANGED the series from the illusion of a serious game sprinkled with comedy elements to a comedy sprinkled with serious elements. Wether you like that change or not is a personal preference. I'd prefer to have kept the illusion, but that doesn't stop me from screaming with joy like a little girl every time a new Monkey Island game is announced.
I know they're not really serious, but they give the illusion of having a more serious tone and hid the comedy better. Curse made it much more evident that it was a comedy, and Escape took that element to the extremes (I have no problem with self-parody, but there's a difference between that and disrespecting it's legacy). Tales was more in line with Curse again.
It may be something as simple as Curse onwards having speech and more cartoony graphics, but the reason is completely irrelevant since it's the outcome that counts. And the outcome was that the illusion of a more serious tone disappeared after MI2. .
Just to be clear, I don't agree that the Curse destroyed Monkey Island, that's ridiculous. I do believe, however, that Curse CHANGED the series from the illusion of a serious game sprinkled with comedy elements to a comedy sprinkled with serious elements. Wether you like that change or not is a personal preference. I'd prefer to have kept the illusion, but that doesn't stop me from screaming with joy like a little girl every time a new Monkey Island game is announced.
You know, StarEye, I was thinking about what you said. You're right, three to five is a little more different than one to two. Yet, they are all funny games that don't take themselves too seriously. I love all the MI games for different reasons, and they all have that MI feel. Yet, maybe the difference is that MI 1 and 2 had more of a Terry Gilliam kind of feel to them. We look at movies like "Time Bandits" and The Adventures of "Baron Munchousen" which are all incredibly silly. I feel like Monkey Island one and two almost have a Terry Gilliam was here kind of feel, especially the surrealism of 2: LeChuck's Revenge. I can't describe three to five's feel. Yes, I call Tales five. Yet they are all very funny, none of them are to be taken seriously, yet the first two have a slightly different feel than the last three.
I don't think MI3 ruined Monkey Island at all. To the contrary, I quite enjoyed it. When it comes down to how it treated MI2's ending, I personally think that it's probably fairly close to how Ron Gilbert had it planned. I don't believe at all that MI1 and 2 were the result of a kid's imagination (and if it was it would feel like a massive slap to the face. I detest "It was all a dreeeaaaammm!" endings with every fiber of my being because it makes the entire work in question feel utterly pointless and leaves me feeling somewhat empty inside. Besides, Ron had planned out his own MI3 and a kid in an amusement park wouldn't make for much of a Monkey Island game now, would it?). I think the evil glint in Chuckie's eyes combined with the shot of Elaine wondering if LeChuck had cast a spell on Guybrush (With a big emphasis on 'spell') was supposed to be a hint of sorts that LeChuck did indeed trick Guybrush one way or another. The brother thing was probably to get Guybrush to lower his defenses enough for LeChuck to successfully cast his spell on him. They could still have some sort of ties to each other, though (I recall Ron saying in an interview something along the line of "In a way, they are brothers, in a way, they are not." leading me to believe that they might be brothers in a much more metaphorical sense).
My personal guess is that, if we ever see a MI game made by Ron himself, he'll probably find a way to work MI3-5 into his canon. He had said before that he thought Curse was quite good (though I don't know what his opinion on Escape is) and he collaborated a bit with Telltale to create Tales. It'd be almost cruel in my eyes to write all of those games out of the overarching story and completely invalidate such a large portion of the series.
For MI3 itself, I really found little to complain about. I loved the cartoony art style, the choice of voice actors, the writing, and the gameplay overall. The only complaint I can think of is that LeChuck didn't feel like much of a villain overall and I think he could have been a bit more threatening. I agree that Curse had a somewhat different tone overall compared to the previous games and marked a shift towards a bigger focus on comedy in the series, but it definitely still felt like Monkey Island to me.
Oh man, bringing up Terry Gilliam in regards to the first two Monkey Island games.. I can totally see where you're coming from there. If anything, Monkey Island 2 especially reminded me of Monkey Python, especially the "what the hell" ending reminiscent of the suddenly modern/surreal ending of "Holy Grail".
Now, I love Monty Python to bits and it was part of my youth, but wow did I always find the ending to suddenly jar me out of whatever spell I was under. In fact, comparing MI2 to just that movie is probably a good metaphor. You have this one story/setting/etc and suddenly boom, unexpected ending leaving people scratching their heads and drawing their own conclusions.
However, in keeping with the comparison between MI and TG, I'd also have to say that some of the humour is definitely out there and/or an acquired taste. A number of the jokes in MI 1 and 2 took me a little while to fully digest, where as in MI3 and beyond I never felt like I'd missed the point of something except on maybe a very obscure reference I wouldn't notice until later.
Hmm.. here's a thought for you all, having recently come out of the King's Quest forum feeling a bit.. odd:
Could one of the reasons people are divided between MI1-2 and MI3 be the same reason that people are torn between previous KQ games and KQ7? The switch to more cartoony graphics, more humour, and an overall lighter tone compared to earlier games. I am seeing a similarity here.
Oh, and something I remembered. Somewhere I read that Ron disliked Guybrush marrying Elaine, saying in his mind Elaine never saw Guybrush as more than a brother. Yet then why were there so many romantic tones to their interactions in MI1? When I thought about all the games, and what he said about his ideas for her and why she was pushed back as a more background character in MI2.. I'd almost say that MI2 is the odd-card out. Guybrush has that mustache, Elaine just up and leaves both Guybrush and her job as Governor, LeChuck's beard was apparently not ghostly despite the game telling you outright he was a ghost. Then again, there was the whole "skeleton under the ghost" when you beat him..
I dunno.. the more I think about it, the more I feel that MI2 just didn't sit right with me. It wasn't a bad game, but like... I felt like a lot was missing. maybe I'm too tired and thinking to much...
Could one of the reasons people are divided between MI1-2 and MI3 be the same reason that people are torn between previous KQ games and KQ7? The switch to more cartoony graphics, more humour, and an overall lighter tone compared to earlier games. I am seeing a similarity here.
From what I've seen, it's that and/or because Ron Gilbert wasn't involved. Also, those in the latter camp often have their own interpretation of MI2's ending, and it doesn't always match up with the way Curse handled it.
Now, it would be totally honest to say that Escape destroyed Monkey Island. Nothing good about that one. Anyway, LeChuck was even less of a villain in that one, largely in part due to Ozzie Mandrill.
I feel that Escape was a decent continuation except for some glaringly stupid portions (Monkey Combat). I really don't believe GRIME was the worst thing about the game or the progression. I mean after all, Grim Fandango, easily one of the best adventure games ever created, was built using GRIME, so you can't blame the overall game on the engine alone. I imagine part of the problem with Escape in GRIME is partly due to the limitations that they were put under being required to build the game for multiple platforms (Playstation 2).
I chalk Escape's comparatively lackluster appeal more to changes in writing staff over the years, catering to the lowest common denominator in terms of platforms, and a general lack of story direction.
Jambalaya Island. The entire area was trying too hard to be funny through anachronisms and failed at it. Yes, I get that it fits with the corporate takeover plot, but that just makes it part of a bigger problem. Things like Starbuccaneer's are not funny, nor do they fit in at all with the rest of the established Monkey Island universe.
The only complaint ive ever heard about escape is monkey combat. Please think of other reasons to hate that game please
I love the game (apart from Monkey Kombat) but I can think of resions to hate it. Herman Toothrot stupid retcons less Piratey settings and Guybrush looks like a bell hop. But I ignore it all hehe cos I love the jokes in it and I genraly do love playing it.
Jambalaya Island. The entire area was trying too hard to be funny through anachronisms and failed at it. Yes, I get that it fits with the corporate takeover plot, but that just makes it part of a bigger problem. Things like Starbuccaneer's are not funny, nor do they fit in at all with the rest of the established Monkey Island universe.
God I hated that place! all of it! I much preferred the Knutting Atoll next to it.
The only complaint ive ever heard about escape is monkey combat. Please think of other reasons to hate that game please
On top of everything else that has been mentioned in the posts above, there's also the controls. My god, do I hate that control scheme. I was able to tolerate the similar controls in Grim Fandango because everything else about that game was just so amazing, but Escape had quite a few problems already, so adding bad controls on top of that didn't really help.
Actually, I found Jambalaya Island to be very amusing. It was one of the first times I'd seen somebody parody Starbucks, Planet Hollywood, and so forth. It might not have fit in very well, but that alone isn't going to make me hate the island, though I guess I can see why some people might.
I do wholeheartedly agree about Monkey Kombat, but at least on the PS2 you had that "cheat sheet" using R2 which seriously made the whole thing SOOO much easier. So the last time I played it, I actually breezed through that part. The rock puzzle earlier on is what gave me trouble, but that was largely due to the interface and my innate disliking of time-based puzzles.
Gods, the interface.. when I FIRST played the game, I actually didn't have any problems with it cause it was my first MI game, but after playing through the earlier 3 and then replaying it again, the flaws with it were glaringly obvious.
My primary issue with the Monkey Robot in Escape isn't as much as it's stupid and doesn't fit (though that's true), but more so that it destroys the Giant Monkey Head in more ways than one.
The Giant Monkey Head is (presumably) either the fossilized head of an actual giant monkey or made of stone (not metal), as seen here:
and here:
As you can clearly see, there is a giant skeletal structure directly below the Giant Monkey Head. Is there any room for a giant robot to be there? No. The robot's head is suppose to either be part of or inside the Giant Monkey Head, and this giant skeleton is obviously in the way of where its body should be.
So the robot being activated not only physically destroys the Giant Monkey Head, but its very existence contradicts the existence of the skeleton which appears to be physically attached to the head.
Suffice it to say the Monkey Robot not only is stupid, but also make no sense.
We actually have no idea how far down it is to that skeleton from the Monkey Head. There was also a comment that LeChuck destroyed the carnival when he was resurrected out of anger for his repeated failures.
There's also enough missing information about Elaine's Grandfather to make the notion that Herman really was her grandfather. Being stuck on Monkey Island for many years could've seen him come into contact with other shipwrecked people, such as the boat you sailed to MI in the first game. We only assume that the dead guy on the swing was the captain of that ship, it's never outright stated.
Also, when LeChuck said all those things about Elaine's grandfather in MI3, it's entirely possible he was just trying to make her suffer.
We actually have no idea how far down it is to that skeleton from the Monkey Head.
No. There is a head, and at the base of the head would be the top of the spine (ie. neck bones). Also, there is sunlight coming from the hole in the ground where the neck is. There is no room for the body of a huge robot to have been there.
There was also a comment that LeChuck destroyed the carnival when he was resurrected out of anger for his repeated failures.
Where was that? I don't think this is accurate.
There's also enough missing information about Elaine's Grandfather to make the notion that Herman really was her grandfather. Being stuck on Monkey Island for many years could've seen him come into contact with other shipwrecked people, such as the boat you sailed to MI in the first game.
No. The captain's log, in which the captain of The Sea Monkey mentions a man named "Toothrot" as his first mate, is located in the captain's quarters onboard the ship itself and it discusses events that happened before they (ie. he and Toothrot) ever reached the island:
Quote from The Secret of Monkey Island
"Captain's log, March 10th: First Mate Toothrot and I have been searching for Monkey Island™ for over a month with no success. The directions we purchased on Melee proved to be a recipe, not a map as we had believed.
"Captain's log, March 12th: I wish Toothrot would take a bath.
"Captain's log, March 17th: I wish Toothrot would stop snoring.
"Captain's log, March 23rd: Toothrot is really starting to get on my nerves. I figure it's only a matter of time before we come to blows.
"Captain's log, April 2nd: As a gesture to restore our friendship, Toothrot offered to fix dinner tonight.
"Captain's log, April 3rd: I don't know how we did it, but we've arrived at Monkey Island™. Both Toothrot and I passed out from the soup he fixed last night. When we woke, Monkey Island™ was sitting off the port bow.
"Captain's log. April 4th: Toothrotand I filled the rowboat with supplies and are ready to set out to Monkey Island™. We are both excited at the prospect of being the first civilised people to learn the Secret of Monkey Island™.
"Captain's log, April 5th: We had to turn around and return to the ship. Toothrot forgot to go to the bathroom before we left. We'll set out again tomorrow.
That was the last entry."
Also, when LeChuck said all those things about Elaine's grandfather in MI3, it's entirely possible he was just trying to make her suffer.
He doesn't want her to suffer--he wants her to love him. He does want her to die, but only so they can be happily undead together for eternity. Further, that explanation was for the sake of tying up the loose ends left by MI2. They have to be accurate, otherwise the point of their being included is lost.
I never had a problem with the giant monkey head robot, but I always thought it would be cooler (and fit in better) if the giant monkey came out of the ground as a full skeleton, and then the voodoo magic caused it's boney body (and head) to be encased in metal.
And I liked Jambalya Island's touristy atmosphere because it continued the Disneyland connection that all of the Monkey Island games have had.
I'm also not worried about the apparent retcon in regards to Herman, because I don't think it is a true retcon. I still think Elaine was cursed (by the Voodoo Lady, LeChuck, or both) to believe what they wanted her to think. She accepted Herman too readily and left the governorship on Melee Island too easily. Plus, I never thought Herman or the Voodoo Lady were as benevolent as they seemed.
I'm pretty sure Herman said it when you talk to him on Monkey Island in MI4. It was after hitting him with the Coconut, I believe. Or was it the Ghostly Priest? I can't remember, I just recall it being mentioned.
I don't see where you're getting the "no there is a head so naturally the spine must follow" because it was never implied that the Monkey Head was an actual skull, especially given the way you opened it, it seems more likely that it was a mechanism or a statue.
And what I said about the Sea Monkey's captain still stands. Having washed up on shore, he could've easily become delusional and started referring to the old man as Herman Toothrot. Or could've asked him if he'd seen such a person. A lot can happen in 20 years, you know. There's all kinds of ways to try and explain it away.
Also, if LeChuck didn't want Elaine to feel upset or angry, he wouldn't keep doing terrible things to her. Many guys who don't have a clue often are mean to women they like (this is also especially noticeable amongst younger people). It's called teasing.
it was never implied that the Monkey Head was an actual skull, especially given the way you opened it, it seems more likely that it was a mechanism or a statue.
The sunlight coming from the hole shows that the neck is very near to the surface.
And what I said about the Sea Monkey's captain still stands. Having washed up on shore, he could've easily become delusional and started referring to the old man as Herman Toothrot.
The captain calls him "Toothrot" before they ever reached the island. Herman claims to only have been called Toothrot after reaching the island. That's my entire point. Either way, Toothrot's information is false (as he is either lying or insane) and any further testimony by him can not be considered accurate.
if LeChuck didn't want Elaine to feel upset or angry, he wouldn't keep doing terrible things to her.
Whatever he does to Elaine is always a method to physically get a hold of her, to physically keep her close to him, or to persuade/force her to love him. He might try to kill her (in order to make her undead) but hurting her emotionally by intentioanally saying mean things about her family doesn't fit as a method he would use.
Problem with EMI is that it's trying too hard to repair the mess Curse did to the series and it really fails doing so.
And yes I do think that Curse destroyed Monkey Island, or at least its spirit and atmosphere established in the first two installments.
I guess you've not got a lot of experience with the stupid things guys will say or do, Chryon, cause putting your foot in your mouth and never realizing it happens all the time so why should LeChuck be any different.
However, leaving the whole "what he said" part aside, you're still not seeing what I said about Toothrot. The fact that he would've been called Toothrot AFTER he got to the island makes perfect sense considering what I'd said. If the captain of the Sea Monkey started calling him that after he got there (confusing him with his friend or maybe cause he'd gone insane) that'd naturally mean a Toothrot had already existed but that it doesn't necessarily make him the same person. Either I'm not wording this properly, or you're just not trying to see what I'm saying. There's such a thing as "assumed identity".
Also, I think you're confusing sunlight with light in general. The robot monkey control areas were fairly well lit, so light could easily be pouring in from somewhere else.
..also, Voodoo Derina, in what way was Escape trying to fix Curse's mistakes? Besides the change in tone and art style? I don't really see how Escape was trying to steer it back towards what MI1 and 2 were all about. In fact, I'd sure hope we don't try steering it back to MI2, cause then we'd get another nonsensical ending.
The fact that he would've been called Toothrot AFTER he got to the island makes perfect sense considering what I'd said. If the captain of the Sea Monkey started calling him that after he got there (confusing him with his friend or maybe cause he'd gone insane) that'd naturally mean a Toothrot had already existed but that it doesn't necessarily make him the same person. Either I'm not wording this properly, or you're just not trying to see what I'm saying. There's such a thing as "assumed identity".
Have you played Escape recently? What Herman says in Escape is that his name is H.T. Marley, that he hit his head while on Monkey Island which made him lose his memory [hitting him again with the same object(s) undoes the damage], and that he found an object with H.T. written on it while on the island after hurting his head which prompted him to call himself "Herman Toothrot."
Herman says in Escape that he didn't start calling himself Herman Toothrot until after he reached the island. However in SoMI, the captain's log onboard the ship that Herman used to arrive there clearly states that the captain called him Herman Toothrot before he reached the island.
...unless what you're trying to say is that the guy who was dead on Monkey Island in SoMI was not the captain but rather someone else named Herman Toothrot, but I'd say that's really reaching. It's more likely that the dead man is the captain, and--in keeping with his ship logs in which he complains at length about Herman--he killed himself because he couldn't put up with Herman anymore.
I had actually just played through Escape before starting up discussion about Escape in this thread. Finished it like.. beginning of February or something.
Herman Toothrot said that he destroyed the Carnival in a fit of rage if you ask him about it but Herman will muse LeChuck did it cos he was embarrassed by the idea of an evil amusement park.
Comments
Some people have been saying it was goofier than the previous two? No it wasn't. Let's not forget that Monkey Island 1 had the grog machine in a used ship lot - kind of like a used car lot, - cannibals worried about their weight, a three headed monkey and more such nonsense that I can't even name it all. Two carried on that nonsense with cross-dressing Guybrush, a joke ending, and all sorts of other crazy things. The cartoony graphics really fit Monkey Island 3, more so than the realistic graphics fit Monkey Island 1.
Others have said that LeChuck was turned into a joke in Curse. Sorry to say, but LeChuck has always been a bit of a joke, a bit of a joke with a nasty side. Let's not foget that in 1 he was a bumbling fool quite a bit. And in 2, he had the audacity to turn his back on Guybrush to pick up a coin that fell out of the grog machine and to get his beard stuck in an elevator. What an idiot! So in Curse he wasn't much different.
Curse took the best things about Monkey Island 1 and 2 and extended upon them, in terms of witty dialogue, good humor, sword-fights, and so forth. I hope to see another game as good as Curse in the future.
The art style in Curse was also some of the best I've ever seen in the series, so I'll agree with you there. I say some, because if you've ever seen their concept artwork, that stuff is just awesome to look at. But gamewise, I'd have to say it was definitely the best looking of the games. It also gave us Guybrush's trademark voice, and I honestly can't see him sounding any differently.
While the controls/user interface was abysmal, I didn't actually have much issue with the writing. Maybe it was because I knew about the displaying the Monkey Kombat short-cut, which shows you the poses and the buttons to press, but I didn't have any real problem with it. What bothered me the most about itwas trying to get all the poses and commands to unlock Monkey Invaders (which was pointless cause it seems unwinnable). The stuff with Herman Toothrot.. the way I see it, it kind of needed to happen.
We already knew that Elaine was the governor of the tri-island area. You'd think a governor couldn't go off having adventures unless someone was performing those duties. While it may not be the best solution, I think it allowed the writers a bit more freedom to have Elaine go with Guybrush on quests and such without having to needlessly explain why she can leave or what's going on back in the islands.
I guess I'm willing to cut it some slack because it was, technically, the first game in the series I played since I had a hard time finding the earlier games when I was younger.
EDIT: Although I must admit, the graphics are pretty bad, they're actually not all that bad compared to other games which came out around that time. Okage Shadow King, Simon the Sorcerer 3D, and so on. Escape was a fairly obscure game according to a lot of people I've talked to.. I myself only found it by sheer luck at a used game shop. Such games often tend to be below par on visual prowess. Not really a proper excuse, but it could go a ways to explaining it. Don't forget that Sam & Max: Freelance Police was also being developed around this time, and how it was cancelled. For all we know, they simply didn't have a whole lot of money or time to make the game look as good as they could.
Would I buy a Special Edition with higher resolution backgrounds and better sound quality? Sure, I do love the Art in this game.
I love the first two games more than anything, and Curse felt off for me from the very first time I played it, despite being incredibly hyped by it. But I still loved it and will always cherish it on a level above most other adventure games.
But it' not ridiculous because of that. It's ridiculous because no MI game DESTROYED the series. To destroy it, MI would either have to have become trash (much like a certain 20 year old cartoon TV show) or would have to have been stopped being made due to loss of fans.
MI's not trash, it's the same now as it's always been and while there is no game planned MI hasn't lost any fans. If anything the last MI game made MI have even MORE fans.
The only game that came remotely close to DESTROYING MI was Escape (which also nearly destroyed all adventure games), but overall none of them ever did destroy it.
The seriousness of the first two is highly overstated.
I know they're not really serious, but they give the illusion of having a more serious tone and hid the comedy better. Curse made it much more evident that it was a comedy, and Escape took that element to the extremes (I have no problem with self-parody, but there's a difference between that and disrespecting it's legacy). Tales was more in line with Curse again.
It may be something as simple as Curse onwards having speech and more cartoony graphics, but the reason is completely irrelevant since it's the outcome that counts. And the outcome was that the illusion of a more serious tone disappeared after MI2. .
Just to be clear, I don't agree that the Curse destroyed Monkey Island, that's ridiculous. I do believe, however, that Curse CHANGED the series from the illusion of a serious game sprinkled with comedy elements to a comedy sprinkled with serious elements. Wether you like that change or not is a personal preference. I'd prefer to have kept the illusion, but that doesn't stop me from screaming with joy like a little girl every time a new Monkey Island game is announced.
You know, StarEye, I was thinking about what you said. You're right, three to five is a little more different than one to two. Yet, they are all funny games that don't take themselves too seriously. I love all the MI games for different reasons, and they all have that MI feel. Yet, maybe the difference is that MI 1 and 2 had more of a Terry Gilliam kind of feel to them. We look at movies like "Time Bandits" and The Adventures of "Baron Munchousen" which are all incredibly silly. I feel like Monkey Island one and two almost have a Terry Gilliam was here kind of feel, especially the surrealism of 2: LeChuck's Revenge. I can't describe three to five's feel. Yes, I call Tales five. Yet they are all very funny, none of them are to be taken seriously, yet the first two have a slightly different feel than the last three.
My personal guess is that, if we ever see a MI game made by Ron himself, he'll probably find a way to work MI3-5 into his canon. He had said before that he thought Curse was quite good (though I don't know what his opinion on Escape is) and he collaborated a bit with Telltale to create Tales. It'd be almost cruel in my eyes to write all of those games out of the overarching story and completely invalidate such a large portion of the series.
For MI3 itself, I really found little to complain about. I loved the cartoony art style, the choice of voice actors, the writing, and the gameplay overall. The only complaint I can think of is that LeChuck didn't feel like much of a villain overall and I think he could have been a bit more threatening. I agree that Curse had a somewhat different tone overall compared to the previous games and marked a shift towards a bigger focus on comedy in the series, but it definitely still felt like Monkey Island to me.
Now, I love Monty Python to bits and it was part of my youth, but wow did I always find the ending to suddenly jar me out of whatever spell I was under. In fact, comparing MI2 to just that movie is probably a good metaphor. You have this one story/setting/etc and suddenly boom, unexpected ending leaving people scratching their heads and drawing their own conclusions.
However, in keeping with the comparison between MI and TG, I'd also have to say that some of the humour is definitely out there and/or an acquired taste. A number of the jokes in MI 1 and 2 took me a little while to fully digest, where as in MI3 and beyond I never felt like I'd missed the point of something except on maybe a very obscure reference I wouldn't notice until later.
Hmm.. here's a thought for you all, having recently come out of the King's Quest forum feeling a bit.. odd:
Could one of the reasons people are divided between MI1-2 and MI3 be the same reason that people are torn between previous KQ games and KQ7? The switch to more cartoony graphics, more humour, and an overall lighter tone compared to earlier games. I am seeing a similarity here.
Oh, and something I remembered. Somewhere I read that Ron disliked Guybrush marrying Elaine, saying in his mind Elaine never saw Guybrush as more than a brother. Yet then why were there so many romantic tones to their interactions in MI1? When I thought about all the games, and what he said about his ideas for her and why she was pushed back as a more background character in MI2.. I'd almost say that MI2 is the odd-card out. Guybrush has that mustache, Elaine just up and leaves both Guybrush and her job as Governor, LeChuck's beard was apparently not ghostly despite the game telling you outright he was a ghost. Then again, there was the whole "skeleton under the ghost" when you beat him..
I dunno.. the more I think about it, the more I feel that MI2 just didn't sit right with me. It wasn't a bad game, but like... I felt like a lot was missing. maybe I'm too tired and thinking to much...
From what I've seen, it's that and/or because Ron Gilbert wasn't involved. Also, those in the latter camp often have their own interpretation of MI2's ending, and it doesn't always match up with the way Curse handled it.
Now, it would be totally honest to say that Escape destroyed Monkey Island. Nothing good about that one. Anyway, LeChuck was even less of a villain in that one, largely in part due to Ozzie Mandrill.
I chalk Escape's comparatively lackluster appeal more to changes in writing staff over the years, catering to the lowest common denominator in terms of platforms, and a general lack of story direction.
I love the game (apart from Monkey Kombat) but I can think of resions to hate it. Herman Toothrot stupid retcons less Piratey settings and Guybrush looks like a bell hop. But I ignore it all hehe cos I love the jokes in it and I genraly do love playing it.
God I hated that place! all of it! I much preferred the Knutting Atoll next to it.
On top of everything else that has been mentioned in the posts above, there's also the controls. My god, do I hate that control scheme. I was able to tolerate the similar controls in Grim Fandango because everything else about that game was just so amazing, but Escape had quite a few problems already, so adding bad controls on top of that didn't really help.
I do wholeheartedly agree about Monkey Kombat, but at least on the PS2 you had that "cheat sheet" using R2 which seriously made the whole thing SOOO much easier. So the last time I played it, I actually breezed through that part. The rock puzzle earlier on is what gave me trouble, but that was largely due to the interface and my innate disliking of time-based puzzles.
Gods, the interface.. when I FIRST played the game, I actually didn't have any problems with it cause it was my first MI game, but after playing through the earlier 3 and then replaying it again, the flaws with it were glaringly obvious.
- The puzzle to get Peg Nose's info from the prosthetic store.
- Herman Toothrot's psychotic break in which he actually believes himself to be Elaine's grandfather.
- Carnival of the Damned is suspiciously missing from Monkey Island.
- The Giant Monkey Head is destroyed by a big monkey robot.
There's also enough missing information about Elaine's Grandfather to make the notion that Herman really was her grandfather. Being stuck on Monkey Island for many years could've seen him come into contact with other shipwrecked people, such as the boat you sailed to MI in the first game. We only assume that the dead guy on the swing was the captain of that ship, it's never outright stated.
Also, when LeChuck said all those things about Elaine's grandfather in MI3, it's entirely possible he was just trying to make her suffer.
Where was that? I don't think this is accurate.
No. The captain's log, in which the captain of The Sea Monkey mentions a man named "Toothrot" as his first mate, is located in the captain's quarters onboard the ship itself and it discusses events that happened before they (ie. he and Toothrot) ever reached the island: He doesn't want her to suffer--he wants her to love him. He does want her to die, but only so they can be happily undead together for eternity. Further, that explanation was for the sake of tying up the loose ends left by MI2. They have to be accurate, otherwise the point of their being included is lost.
And I liked Jambalya Island's touristy atmosphere because it continued the Disneyland connection that all of the Monkey Island games have had.
I'm also not worried about the apparent retcon in regards to Herman, because I don't think it is a true retcon. I still think Elaine was cursed (by the Voodoo Lady, LeChuck, or both) to believe what they wanted her to think. She accepted Herman too readily and left the governorship on Melee Island too easily. Plus, I never thought Herman or the Voodoo Lady were as benevolent as they seemed.
I didn't like Monkey Kombat though.
I'm pretty sure Herman said it when you talk to him on Monkey Island in MI4. It was after hitting him with the Coconut, I believe. Or was it the Ghostly Priest? I can't remember, I just recall it being mentioned.
I don't see where you're getting the "no there is a head so naturally the spine must follow" because it was never implied that the Monkey Head was an actual skull, especially given the way you opened it, it seems more likely that it was a mechanism or a statue.
And what I said about the Sea Monkey's captain still stands. Having washed up on shore, he could've easily become delusional and started referring to the old man as Herman Toothrot. Or could've asked him if he'd seen such a person. A lot can happen in 20 years, you know. There's all kinds of ways to try and explain it away.
Also, if LeChuck didn't want Elaine to feel upset or angry, he wouldn't keep doing terrible things to her. Many guys who don't have a clue often are mean to women they like (this is also especially noticeable amongst younger people). It's called teasing.
The captain calls him "Toothrot" before they ever reached the island. Herman claims to only have been called Toothrot after reaching the island. That's my entire point. Either way, Toothrot's information is false (as he is either lying or insane) and any further testimony by him can not be considered accurate.
Whatever he does to Elaine is always a method to physically get a hold of her, to physically keep her close to him, or to persuade/force her to love him. He might try to kill her (in order to make her undead) but hurting her emotionally by intentioanally saying mean things about her family doesn't fit as a method he would use.
And yes I do think that Curse destroyed Monkey Island, or at least its spirit and atmosphere established in the first two installments.
However, leaving the whole "what he said" part aside, you're still not seeing what I said about Toothrot. The fact that he would've been called Toothrot AFTER he got to the island makes perfect sense considering what I'd said. If the captain of the Sea Monkey started calling him that after he got there (confusing him with his friend or maybe cause he'd gone insane) that'd naturally mean a Toothrot had already existed but that it doesn't necessarily make him the same person. Either I'm not wording this properly, or you're just not trying to see what I'm saying. There's such a thing as "assumed identity".
Also, I think you're confusing sunlight with light in general. The robot monkey control areas were fairly well lit, so light could easily be pouring in from somewhere else.
..also, Voodoo Derina, in what way was Escape trying to fix Curse's mistakes? Besides the change in tone and art style? I don't really see how Escape was trying to steer it back towards what MI1 and 2 were all about. In fact, I'd sure hope we don't try steering it back to MI2, cause then we'd get another nonsensical ending.
Have you played Escape recently? What Herman says in Escape is that his name is H.T. Marley, that he hit his head while on Monkey Island which made him lose his memory [hitting him again with the same object(s) undoes the damage], and that he found an object with H.T. written on it while on the island after hurting his head which prompted him to call himself "Herman Toothrot."
Herman says in Escape that he didn't start calling himself Herman Toothrot until after he reached the island. However in SoMI, the captain's log onboard the ship that Herman used to arrive there clearly states that the captain called him Herman Toothrot before he reached the island.
...unless what you're trying to say is that the guy who was dead on Monkey Island in SoMI was not the captain but rather someone else named Herman Toothrot, but I'd say that's really reaching. It's more likely that the dead man is the captain, and--in keeping with his ship logs in which he complains at length about Herman--he killed himself because he couldn't put up with Herman anymore.
Herman Toothrot said that he destroyed the Carnival in a fit of rage if you ask him about it but Herman will muse LeChuck did it cos he was embarrassed by the idea of an evil amusement park.
not to mention it was the first game to introduce us all to the legendary Murray!!!!!!