Lack of 'edge-y' humor in Telltale's Sam & Max

yamman

Well, I'm downloading Episode 3 as I type, hooray!

But it's with a little trepidation. I'm really hoping the humor is a bit 'edge-ier' in this installment.

The first two have been -good-... but just lacking that certain edge. The only flash of it was at the start of 'Culture Shock' when Max dropped the rat out the window. I got another small flash of it in 'Situation: Comedy' with their remarks about the ingredients in the cooking show. But generally, the episodes have the feeling that they're kind of Sam n Max 'lite' - funny and quirky, but nothing that might offend someone, or make someone think 'bad taste'...

I guess I noticed it more when I watched this month's Machinima - the 'Interrogation' one. THIS is the Sam & Max I know and love - edgy, Max with a real evil streak, swearing... I wish the scripts for the games were more like this. Then I noticed it was done by Steve Purcell.

The Saturday morning cartoon of S&M had the same problem I felt - the ones not written by Steve were 'zany', but missing that wicked, edgy, not-so-nice streak that is CLASSIC Sam & Max.

Are the games being tailored more towards kids, or are the writers just not wanting to go there in case they offend? Because Sam & Max is ALL ABOUT OFFENDING. Right now they feel like they're inside, trying to get out, but have been censored. Whether it's intentional or not, that's what it feels like.

Also, the episodes seem more based in 'reality' - former child stars, hippies, studio directors, talk show hosts, psychiatrists (I'm letting Bosco off the hook 'cause he's hilarious). I pine for mole men, bigfoots, giraffe-necked girls, two-headed carnival directors, shrieking banchees... basically some things a bit more 'out there'. After seeing the rat (again, at the start of 'Culture Shock') I was excited that this was the direction they were taking, but then it was pretty 'normal' from there. 'Situation: Comedy' was an improvement on this at least, with talking chickens, and 'Hugh Bliss' a refreshing change.

93% done downloading 'Mob & Meatball'... hoping for a bit more 'carnage', 'craziness' & 'crap'

Is it just me?

Harald B

It's not just you. I too feel that from the old comics through the less-old comics, Hit the Road, the cartoon, and now the TTG installment, there is a clear progression away from the dark, 'underground' feel towards a more light-hearted family-friendly feel, which is unfortunate IMO.
But the seventh machinima has renewed my hope that this trend may yet be reversed, and episode three seems to take a small step in the right direction. It's hard to tell if that's incidental or not; for now we'll just have to wait and see.

JK1985

I agree! I would love to get offended and think "bad taste"

I haven't watched the 7th machinima short yet... saving that for a couple of days I think.. maybe

Hero1

I agree..the comedy has been a little safe.. I think episode 3 was a step in the right direction though.mafia wearing giant teddy bear heads is suitably crazy

Sir Lemming

Sam & Max is definitely not "all about offending"... but I understand your concern. I think episode 3 is the edgiest, possibly because of the mafia-related content.

Screaming Gamer

Well if you are British like me, EP2 pushed the mark a little using Bosco as one of us Brits... He pulled it off very well and it was funny! Then I though it stepped the mark with the swearing. It was trying to be too funny which it failed to be. I wasn't offended, I just feel that the writers were trying too hard at that point. Cheap laughs arent always cool.

Mother Superior

I also feel that because Sam (for obvious reasons) is pretty much always driving the plot, whenever Max gets to do anything it needs to be memorable, lest we forget him. (the rat and the judging panel were good ones to remember, but he needs to be meaner and more extreme:p ) Stuff that insults people such as swearing and being evil is always good for a laugh of course.

GozzoMan

Well, I haven't read the comics nor seen the cartoon, so my only reference for comparison is the Hit The Road game, and, while I agree that a bit more bigfoots and whatnot would be tasty, I have to say that I liked the humor of Ep 1 and 2 more then the old Lucas game, much more indeed, as I've been saying to all my old-adventurer friends for two months now.

It's worth noting that I re-played S&MHTR just a few months before Culture Shock, so the reference is rather fresh, and it's strange but I had the opposite feeling: that is that TTG took more liberty in humor than the Lucas team, I found it more edgy and rude and all the rest.

My favorite examples are

the blues that Sam sang about the missing phone in Culture Shock

for "edginess" (wonderful! I laughed crazy) and the

interrogation of the rat

, there's plenty of rudeness in it!

That not to say that I didn't find the "Interrogation" machinima ending exceptionally funny,

"[...]Justice is a truckload of pointy crap."

Pure genius, indeed.

Just my 2 (euro)cents

abdallah

yamman wrote: »

Well, I'm downloading Episode 3 as I type, hooray!

But it's with a little trepidation. I'm really hoping the humor is a bit 'edge-ier' in this installment... and so on

Is it just me?

Yep, im sorry to be one of the ones complaining, the episodes are brilliant. But i agree. Sometimes Max even comes to the point of being irritating. Too over the top, and probably because of the political correctness of it.
The Bird eating shit was great, because he deserved it, but its a pretty cheap laugh as well. I dont know, its almost like Sam n max is Frasier now, which is not really a bad thing, but it used to be one of the good Seinfeld episodes.
I havnt played the third one yet, this is my experience from the first two.

numble

I might be spoilery, so I'll say Episode 3 does have a lot more violence and things in it, but it seems a lot of the limitations of this sort of humor is that the Telltale Engine doesn't seem as capable of providing the visual equivalent as often--like in the machinima short about interrogation and reality show, the violence occurs off-screen with sound effects. Doing this too often would highlight the limitations of their tools, so maybe that's the reason they don't do it as often.

Harald B

numble wrote: »

I might be spoilery, so I'll say Episode 3 does have a lot more violence and things in it, but it seems a lot of the limitations of this sort of humor is that the Telltale Engine doesn't seem as capable of providing the visual equivalent as often--like in the machinima short about interrogation and reality show, the violence occurs off-screen with sound effects. Doing this too often would highlight the limitations of their tools, so maybe that's the reason they don't do it as often.

I don't think that's the reason. Fact is, Sam and Max is not nor has it ever been about gory bits. On the contrary, one of the main strengths has always been implicitness: violence is often implied but almost never shown directly, and for good reason. If we actually saw detailed footage of

a guy falling into a truck filled with razorblades and whatnot

, it would be plain disgusting and not funny at all -especially if we'd have to listen to Max's snide comments while witnessing it. Sam and Max works by coming dangerously close to crossing the line, but only works because it doesn't actually do so; if it did it would just degenerate into mindless vulgarity.
There's a similar point to be made about the offensiveness that's being mentioned. A certain amount of rudeness is integral, but so is the fact that that rudeness is always cloaked in expensive verbosity and good style. If it were merely about offending they might as well stick in some four-letter words or various other forms of obscenity and profanity; thank god that's not the case.
Sorry for the rant guys, nothing personal. I just wanted to point out that Sam and Max is a piece of art performing a delicate balancing act, not just an exercise in excessive violence and offensiveness. I'm not accusing anyone here of holding the opposite, it's just something that needed to be said for the record at this point.

numble

Harald B wrote: »

I don't think that's the reason. Fact is, Sam and Max is not nor has it ever been about gory bits. On the contrary, one of the main strengths has always been implicitness: violence is often implied but almost never shown directly, and for good reason. If we actually saw detailed footage of

a guy falling into a truck filled with razorblades and whatnot

, it would be plain disgusting and not funny at all -especially if we'd have to listen to Max's snide comments while witnessing it. Sam and Max works by coming dangerously close to crossing the line, but only works because it doesn't actually do so; if it did it would just degenerate into mindless vulgarity.
There's a similar point to be made about the offensiveness that's being mentioned. A certain amount of rudeness is integral, but so is the fact that that rudeness is always cloaked in expensive verbosity and good style. If it were merely about offending they might as well stick in some four-letter words or various other forms of obscenity and profanity; thank god that's not the case.
Sorry for the rant guys, nothing personal. I just wanted to point out that Sam and Max is a piece of art performing a delicate balancing act, not just an exercise in excessive violence and offensiveness. I'm not accusing anyone here of holding the opposite, it's just something that needed to be said for the record at this point.

Ah I get you, but I would mean just basic things like running away or jumping out a window and fighting are also off-screen, and many of the visual gags in HtR -- Max short-circuiting a fusebox, grabbing a letter from a kitty, or riding that spinning carnival contraption (I haven't played in years) would not be possible (without longer development times).

Mother Superior

I get where Harald is coming from, and I agree with him, but my main reason for wanting more violence actually stems from my belief that Max needs more to do (and hurting people is his forté), so it comes natural to me that when he does get to hurt people, it should be more extreme. Even though I also agree that it shouldn't be violent in the visual way, it should be done like the rat coughing up the phone in ep1 ("I wish I could un-see that). Blood and gore isn't S&Ms style.

fathamburger

Well I do miss a bit of Max violence but aside from that I think things are fine the way it was. I always thought it was more about the humour than the gag violence. I do say bring it back though but keep it cartoony i.e. in the original Hit the Road game where Max shoves his fist down the mouth of the "bonded street courier "

yamman

Coughing up the phone is a perfect example of crazy, edgier stuff happening. What I'm trying to get at is, other that that and Hugh Bliss doing 'magical' stuff, these episode could almost be based in reality. If it wasn't for the fact that Sam & Max are a dog and rabbit, it could be a couple of guys walking around.

The other thing is Max himself - he always -talks- about his penchant for violence in these episodes, but we barely ever SEE it - off-screen or not.

And yes, exactly like the Machinima, violence is always portrayed off-screen, or off-panel (in the case of the comic) - that's fine! I just miss Sam & Max's gleeful violent impulses e.g. throwing an exploding head out the window (Hit The Road), running with a log towards a bunch of cultists ('Monkeys Violating' comic) etc etc etc. Even Steve's web comic (where they come back from the dead, lol) has a more adult and crazy tone and more sophisticated writing than these episodes.

Bang on to the poster who mentioned the 'edgier' stuff is always presented in verbose, magnificently written dialogue as well - so they might be saying 'let's take this guys' guts out', but it's said in such a round-about way that it's a joy to listen to and doesn't offend, just makes you laugh.

Playing 'Mob & Meatball' at the moment, and once again... it's all humans everywhere. Now it's Mafia dudes in bear helmets, in a brightly coloured casino. It's ok... but the only sparks I've felt from this game so far have been:
a) The Intro
b) Bosco (well written as always - the 'no' jokes were laugh-out-loud stuff)
c) FINALLY - a little talking BUG! -That's- more like it!!!

What this seriers really needs it more stuff like the rubber pants commandoes... gator golf... mystery vortexs (vorti?)... chimps with guns... giant cockroaches on the moon... A BLOOD CAKED SMOCK. Stuff that's totally out of LEFT FIELD.

I know I said S&M is all about offending, and thanks whoever picked me up on that. I better way to re-phrase it is I miss being offended/shocked/revolted/pleasantly surprised by what I see (and don't see) in Sam & Max!

Yohmi

Yes, these episoddes are less crazy than Hit the Road... and I'm missing it a bit... but I hope it become progressive ! Nothing as funny as the incredibly pretentious snucky salesman, the house of stranges things, a so funny (and boring) moleman... for the moment, Season 1 is not as insane as Hit the Road... I just hope it'll become... I just remember the shaving butt scene, it's that kind of thing I like...

ShaggE

abdallah wrote: »

I dont know, its almost like Sam n max is Frasier now.

:eek: In my book, comparing anything to Frasier (the greatest sitcom ever) is glowing praise!

And as was remarked earlier, this episode's "Do you have..." sequence in Bosco's was the funniest yet, I was in tears by the 5th click lol

Sir Lemming

One thing I somehow forgot in Episode 3 is quite obvious: "Does the carpet match the drapes?"

Kefky

It's not as edgy as the comics, but to me it definitely feels more edgy than htr. Max's dialog seems more "naughty", and the guys are just acting more immoral in general, like the way Sam carries a gun and you can shoot it wherever you feel like it, including inside a general store, or actually acting breaking someone's tail light, and charging a 10,000 dollar ticket for it. How delicious was that? Not to mention actually getting to be a mob enforcer, or even that whole a bit about the U.S. being a free country being a delusion... Seems pretty risque to me.

Alucard

yes I like the carpet match the drapes. The kind of jokes that adults will get but still if kids hear them it is no big deal because they won't understand

Derwin

Alucard wrote: »

yes I like the carpet match the drapes. The kind of jokes that adults will get but still if kids hear them it is no big deal because they won't understand

Holy crap! How did I not even realize that? I think I was so taken in by the childish, cartoony graphics and atmosphere, that I refused to allow anything to sound even the least bit inappropriate.

Wow... I was thinking more along the lines of "shopping for curtains."

ShaggE

I fully expected Sybil to slap Sam when he asked her that... is she really that naive??

yamman

Ok, just finished Mob & Meatball. Thoughts:

(SPOILERS AHEAD)



...

i) It was good. Liked Max doing a bit of gratuitous violence on the card player (although not sure why his Mother had to be dead? possibly to make it harsher... ;p)
ii) Good to see the Mole was a MOLE! -Loved- the design of him as well, hope there's more Moles in the future, really wish we had have got to see more of him!
iii) 'Chuckles' voice was a bit flat.
iv) More violence (the cup shooting) - hooray!

Yes, it -was- a little bit more edgy, and good to see the Mole. Like the previous episodes, some stuff worked, some stuff was a bit bland.

Also, could just be me, but while the primary colour schemes and clean lines of the game are nice, they do tend to take some edge off the game... some more 'dirty' textues might help. Even the street in front of the office with trash etc seems spotless, with one or two bits of strategically placed trash. Doesn't seem 'grimy' enough for S&M (see the comics), if that makes sense! Just the art style they've decided to go with, I guess.

Don't get me wrong - the environments are really nice to look at (e.g. the casino room - wow!), but just lack a bit of that 'seemy underbelly of america' feel that Hit The Road and the comics had.

Still excited for Episode 4! Hope it's longer, and some of these cool characters come back (Hugh Bliss, the mole)

Djdoug

Hahaha! I didn't get it either I was taken by the colourfull casino room! haha thats classic... spesh the way they act like they dont know what it means love it.

ahaha and I loved the show max did at the ending... was classic... I reakon its a step in the right direction short but sweet. I aggree that its differnt to teh LA sytle but I think thats why it works... think it just needs more ground work.. by epp 6 think we will be after alot more

Linque

numble wrote: »

.... it seems a lot of the limitations of this sort of humor is that the Telltale Engine doesn't seem as capable of providing the visual equivalent as often--like in the machinima short about interrogation and reality show, the violence occurs off-screen with sound effects. Doing this too often would highlight the limitations of their tools, so maybe that's the reason they don't do it as often.

Sorry to grab on a post a page back, but there is a really valid point here. Back in the days of 2D, you weren't limited to the models and textures so much. You were free to make top quality animations of gooey severed heads (Hit the Road intro) being tossed around and grabbed by the hair.

This is impossible / extremely hard to do with 3D engines.
This is something I miss very much. But that's life.

Kefky

Linque wrote: »

Sorry to grab on a post a page back, but there is a really valid point here. Back in the days of 2D, you weren't limited to the models and textures so much. You were free to make top quality animations of gooey severed heads (Hit the Road intro) being tossed around and grabbed by the hair.

This is impossible / extremely hard to do with 3D engines.
This is something I miss very much. But that's life.

Um, if you honestly think violence can't be done in 3d, you haven't played a lot of FPS's recently. Doom 3 was more pointlessly violent and gory than S&M would ever need to be, and I don't think anybody ever complained of it looking fakey.

As others have mentioned, I think this is more of a case of telltalle going with implied violence than gratuitous on-screen gore, which is really the same thing the comics and htr did. For example, Max punching the mad scientist in htr, bloody hand and all, was done off-screen, and so was his beating of the thief in Bosco's store. And those are the most memorable moments of the game. Plus, the guy who gets throw out of Flint's paper, and S&M getting trashed by Bumpus' bodyguard.

Linque

I need to point out that you kind of misunderstood me. With 3D engines, it's more difficult to be as artistic as with 2D engines. Also, 3D takes away a lot of the freedom with animation that 2D has. In 3D, simple animation is very easy to make, but when you want to do something more complex it's the other way around.

A grand example would be in Episode one when the floating Max head ate Brady Culture's head in the dream sequence. In 3D, it's simple to make sam's head move and cover up Brady's head, but in 2D you would have a lot more freedom, for example (and this is just an example, I'm not saying it would be any better this way), Max could bite a piece of the head, rip the piece off, swallow, then proceed to devour the rest of the head - something which in 3D would be very difficult to make.

Another example about the artistic possibility is the very scene you mentioned about Hit the Road, where Max assaults the mad scientist. Yes, the action is off screen, but we see the shadow of Max pummeling on the scientist, something which, again, would be very difficult to make in 3D.

About 3D engines being able to be very realistically gory, I agree - but making something with for instance the Doom3 engine takes much more time than with the TTG engine. At least that the image I've gotten.

Bottom line is, that it's indeed possible to make the same things with animation in 3D as in 2D, but not within reasonable limits. Then again, 2D has a lot of drawbacks as well, but that was not the point here.



PS. As a disclaimer I'd like to say that I'm not rallying for S&M to revert back to 2D. I know it won't happen.

Kefky

That's all fair enough, I was just addressing the point that telltalle may be holding back on the violence because they simply can't animate it with their 3d engine, which is just silly. Using the example of the torture video, violence like that, even as far as back the S&M comics go, are typically done off-screen, with implied violence, rather than something extra-detailed and gory.

doom saber

Even if ep 3 isn't funny, I wouldn't lose hope towards Telltale since this is just one episode and I am certain they will make a comeback in humor in the next couple of weeks, with their future episodes.

Sir Lemming

Just revisiting this thread to point out that episode 4 is about as edgy as you could hope for, unless you want Sam & Max to be South Park. It ain't for kids.

Harald B

Agreed. Between the gag when shooting out of the window and the easter dialogue we've obviously reached the point where things are at least as edgy as they were in and near the office in Hit the Road. (IMO Hit the Road itself got more family-friendly rather quickly once you left the office behind you.) This is another one of those issues you won't be hearing me complain about any more.

genuineparts

Sir Lemming wrote: »

One thing I somehow forgot in Episode 3 is quite obvious: "Does the carpet match the drapes?"

Holy Shit... i'm not an native speaker... so i just looked it up... *rofl* i didn't catch this one. :eek: Hm.. way to improve my english

AdamG

I miss the 2-Dimensional days too, but after getting used to S&M in 3D I don't think I could ever go back. I would like to see a bit more "edgy" humor too. I always considered S&M to be for adults anyway, but I suppose I would let a kid of mine watch the cartoons.