Maybe not main villain, but I'd like to see Guybrush himself as a villain on one episode (perhaps under the influx of the true main villain), and control Elaine to fight him (well, not FIGHT fight, but to spoil his plans)
I would like to see a new villain personally... but somehow I have a feeling that if there will be a new villain, LeChuck will make like a Ganondorf and have a comeback as the main baddie regardless.
Am I the only one who is open to having LeChuck be excluded completely? I personally don't want to see LeChuck for at least another whole game. He is already becoming stale; he does the same thing in every single game, he only tries to do it in a different way, and he eventually fails each time. The whole charade is becoming like a 'Looney Tunes' cartoon. Things are getting repetitive, formulaic and predictable, and it's because LeChuck keeps being dragged back into his regular place as the main villain. Here's what happens in each Monkey Island game:
- LeChuck comes back from the dead.
- LeChuck tries to take control over the Caribbean and force Elaine to marry him. This has happened in basically all of the games; the only bit of differentiation we had in this regard was in 'Revenge...', but even that followed the same formula to some degree.
- Guybrush tries to stop LeChuck from doing so, but must overcome some sort of boundary or restriction. In 'Secret...', he was a hopeless rookie pirate who had to make it all the way to Monkey Island, in 'Curse...', it was LeChuck's child spell that he had to counteract, in 'Escape...', it was being stranded on Monkey Island and having to escape, and in 'Tales...', it was death.
- Guybrush overcomes incredible odds in order to finally be able to face LeChuck.
- A showdown between the two characters takes place, usually with LeChuck chasing after Guybrush.
- Guybrush then foils LeChuck's master plan, and Elaine and Guybrush are back in each other's arms.
Now, I don't actually blame the writers for this repetition; I actually think that it's near impossible to steer the series in a different direction. Why? Because LeChuck is still being brought back (from the dead... literally) to fill his regular role. Because the character has, in a way, grown into a character that just is LeChuck, it has become difficult to mix things up story-wise when he's occupying such a major role. LeChuck has become almost as much as a real person than most video game characters - he has his own personality, his own characteristics, intentions, aspirations, mannerisms, etc. The character is LeChuck; all of his characteristics are simply ingrained in the character, and cannot be changed. LeChuck keeps trying to fulfill the same goals, and that's because it's simply what is expected from the character, just as you world expect a real person to do a particular thing under a particular circumstance (gosh, I hope I'm making sense here). So, since it's just in LeChuck's nature to continue pursuing the same goal, and since that same goal becomes the main plot element in every Monkey Island game, it just causes things to become repetitive.
Yes, the writers of the series have done a wonderful job of mixing things up, and have done well to dress up each game in order to disguise it as a new story, but once you actually strip away everything to the bare essentials of each game, you've got the very same plotline. And that's because LeChuck is still in that very same role - main villain. Do you see what I'm getting at here? The character of LeChuck must go. Mixing things up with the character in the story is too difficult, keeping things the same with the LeChuck in the story will only lead to more of the same, so the only option is to get rid of him. Or at least relegate him to a minor role, but I don't see how this could work either; LeChuck would either rise to be the main villain by the end anyway, or things would seem out-of-place.
Now, I love the character of LeChuck, but things are bordering upon ridiculous when you look at the sameness of each game's main plot. And as great as LeChuck is as a villain, there's no reason why the writers can't think up a new villain who's just as cool. I mean, Telltale were able to come up with Morgan LeFlay, who many would consider cooler than Carla, and who some think would be a better leading lady than Elaine. This shows that new characters aren't necessarily a bad thing; in fact, they're a very good thing. So why are people so afraid of change? Why aren't people open to having new characters replace old characters from time to time? 'Sam & Max' has never had the same main villain from game-to-game (even episode-to-episode, when I think about it), and it's good! It provides variety and juxtaposition, and eliminates repetition and prevents the series from becoming stale. It's time for MI to do the same.
I can talk more on this, but this post is long enough as it is.
I disagree; 'Monkey Island' wouldn't be 'Monkey Island' without Guybrush. If LeChuck were to be excluded, there would just be a bit of differentiation.
I'm not a fan of the 'Guybrush is Evil, Play as Elaine' thing people want.
It'd be neat if say, LeChuck hypnotised Guybrush into being a bad guy, and we as the player are what's left of Real Guybrush, and have to do things that seem evil but are actually attempts to regain control and stop LeChuck.
I disagree; 'Monkey Island' wouldn't be 'Monkey Island' without Guybrush. If LeChuck were to be excluded, there would just be a bit of differentiation.
I think Monkey Island has not be about Guybrush battling LeChuck its one of the only constants in the series. In 2 there was no monkey island (till retcon) and LeChuck wasnt intrested in Elane only in hurting Guybrush.
I don't want LeChuck. After becoming stale and bland in CMI and EMI (in MI2 at least LeChuck was obsessed with Guybrush rather than Elaine, and proved to be quite an adversary), LeChuck thanks to TellTale went out with a wonderful bang in ToMI. If he is to be the main villain again... well, he will become stale and bland again.
Besides, what will be LeChuck's goal? Revenge on Guybrush? Marry Elaine? Domination over the Caribbean? Boooooooriiiiiiing. Besides, he completed every one of these in ToMI (albeit not for a very long period, but still). That's why developers must not always listen to the fans (and fan service is not always a good thing). 'Monkey Island is not Monkey Island without *something* (in this case LeChuck)'. So they put LeChuck in every game. The result? LeChuck is an incompetent repetitive bland comic villain in half of them (by the way, Ozzie in EMI would've worked a lot better without LeChuck). They put Monkey Island in CMI and EMI (and retcon MI2) because, well, 'How can Monkey Island game be a Monkey Island game without Monkey Island'? The result? Worst game sections in both of them. I can go on. The point is... we don't need LeChuck. Sure, we like him (well... I like him in MI2 and ToMI), sure, he's one of the biggest MI symbols, but he needs to retire. AT LEAST for a while (at least one game, though I wouldn't mind 2-3 before we can rest from him and he can return for one reason or another, with another, hopefully, bang). But I wouldn't mind not seeing LeChuck at all again.
Regarding the next villain... New one. Please. Or, if to reuse any of the established characters, Ghost Pirate Hunter Morgan LeFlay might prove to be a worthy adversary (not to mention having her as the main villain will increase the drama).
Largo, but with the Vodoo Lady's plans for the Essence of LeChuck as an important factor. Perhaps in the final chapter, Largo and Guybrush join forces against her?
I agree with almost everything Hayden and Farlander just said.
ToMI's ending indicates that LeChuck won't be a main villain the first time, even if he's going to be a villain, resurrected by Voodoo Lady -her plans might be different than simply resurrecting LeChuck though.
I support Voodoo Lady as the main antagonist for a change (or someone new with superior voodoo skills). I don't really want to see LeChuck being totally absent in a MI game, but him as an ally against the main antagonist wouldn't be that bad. It wouldn't be a new thing, I know, apart from its clichéness it's also done in ToMI, but in that game LeChuck was plotting something bigger whereas in this game LeChuck's only goal might only be survival and the only way to obtain it is to fully trust and ally Guybrush.
Personally, I can't see the Voodoo Lady being evil. She may have a lot to do with the constant battle between Guybrush and LeChuck, but I have a feelings here intentions would be pure. Something about keeping a balance of things or something. I'd love to know which parts of the story in ToMI were Ron's idea, and wether he managed to sneak in a couple of elements to lead the developers of the next game on the right track. If the Voodoo lady thing was his idea, I wouldn't be surprised if this would have happened in Ron's MI3.
Of course, Ron loved to mess with people's heads (as shown in the ending of MI2), so the Voodoo Lady could very well have been the main villain all the time, surprising both Guybrush and LeChuck in his final game with her ingenius plan to merge future and past into one bubble within the Bermuda triangle, hence a slow trickle of modern devices into the pirate world.
I support Voodoo Lady as the main antagonist for a change (or someone new with superior voodoo skills).
While I'm not against the idea of the Voodoo Lady being the main villain/antagonist, I would prefer it if she weren't evil. I, myself, think of the Voodoo Lady as neither good nor evil; but somewhere in between. I've always had the idea that she doesn't belong to one side, but instead has her own agenda and is sort of ignorant to the whole idea of good & evil.
Another theory I have for her is that she does not hope for either good nor evil to prevail, but rather believes in a balance of the two, and perhaps works to maintain that balance through her powers. This is more of just a simple idea rather than a theory.
But that's just how I've always thought of her, so I'm not sure if I'd like her to be depicted as directly 'evil'.
We had a good discussion regarding this over at the WorldofMI forums.
Edit: Hah! Seems I'm not the only one with the 'balance' theory ^.
That is why I tried to use the term "antagonist" (someone opposing the protagonist) rather than "villain" or "evil". The balance requires reliving a chain of events over and over and this is a problem for Guybrush and LeChuck so they have to stop it, but a great force of Voodoo opposing them to maintain a cosmic balance of some sort. This does not make this force evil, but a worthy antagonist in the end.
Hayden and Farlander pretty much summed up a lot of my feelings on the topic, so at the risk of sounding redundant, I'll toss my piece o' eight into the pond here. LeChuck is a great, antagonist, fine, we can all agree on that. However, I do agree that after being the main antagonist for four games and a lackey in one, it's time to let someone else fill that role. I mean, even though he was a b-list sort of villain the Marquis De Singe was a memorable, funny and well done antagonist in his own right. TellTale managed some truly great newcomer characters in ToMI, so it's pretty much a given that they could manage to cover LeChuck's absence for a game and given how LeChuck went out with a MAJOR bang in Rise of The Pirate God, I think it's time he did sit out for a game.
Hell, with that stinger, I have a hard time legitimizing bringing him back immediately. Elaine and Guybrush think the cycle has been stopped, that LeChuck isn't coming back at best, or at worst he'll be gone for longer than normal. We the gamer know that isn't the case, but wouldn't it be awesome to leave LeChuck's return alone for a game or two and then let him come back with a bang after a new villain's been established and put the guy out of commission? I'd be a good way to bring him back and let his return be a bit of a twist instead of an expected part of the plot and story-wise Elaine and Guybrush wouldn't necessarily be expecting it, letting LeChuck sort of burst onto the scene and take advantage of things before either of them could get their bearings.
On the Voodoo Lady as the villain thing, I'm more inclined to believe the balance argument since she has been legitimately helping Guybrush since SoMI. However, I'd like to see some light shed her rather shadowy role in following games, as I imagine most would.
[...]wouldn't it be awesome to leave LeChuck's return alone for a game or two and then let him come back with a bang after a new villain's been established and put the guy out of commission? I'd be a good way to bring him back and let his return be a bit of a twist instead of an expected part of the plot and story-wise Elaine and Guybrush wouldn't necessarily be expecting it, letting LeChuck sort of burst onto the scene and take advantage of things before either of them could get their bearings.
This, right here.
Wouldn't LeChuck's return just be so much more of a novelty if his absence were prolonged? And, like mgrant sort of touched on, wouldn't his return seem so much more threatening, and wouldn't the character himself feel so much more infamous if he were to re-appear on the scene out of the blue, catching each character by surprise?
If the character is to maintain any credibility as an actual villain, his return simply cannot be at the beginning of the next Monkey Island game.
BTW, a thought crossed my mind: the Voodoo Lady has the Essence of LeChuck in her hands. I doubt she wanted Guybrush (well, eventually Morgan) to bring it just to revive LeChuck later, so what if she used it to create some sort of challenges for Guybrush to overcome? New villain(s) fueled by the essence of LeChuck to prepare Guybrush for something? When I thought about this idea, I kinda liked it, because:
a) LeChuck, being an essence , doesn't fully exit out of the game (so fans should be happy), but he's not prominent and doesn't play a direct role.
b) It will help with establishing what master plan the Voodoo Lady has.
c) We will have a new villain.
I actually quite like your idea, Farlander, especially the part about the Voodoo Lady creating these enemies in order to "prepare Guybrush for something", because if this were to be the case, it means that her intentions aren't necessarily bad. Perhaps the Voodoo Lady would be aware of a great enemy, or a great struggle, that Guybrush will have to defeat or overcome in the future. And perhaps she would be merely preparing (there's that word) Guybrush for this battle against this even worse evil that is to come...
I like the idea.
By the way, what sort of "LeChuck fueled enemies" did you have in mind? What would they be and what would they look like? Ghosts, skeletons, various obscure incarnations of LeChuck? Sorry if I'm carrying things slightly off-topic, I'm just interested to know.
LeChuck!
What do we do about you buddy?
Personally I never want to see Largo return, and those optimistic he will should invest their piece of eight in something more thrilling.
Largo was one-dimensional in every sense of the character, he only served as a means to bring LeChuck back into the picture and in part play in the downfall of LeChuck again by inadvertently aiding Guybrush through his incompetence.
As an antagonist bringing Largo back would be as useless as bringing say Pegnose Pete back to fill the role.
I don't want to agree with Hayden and Farlander, but admittedly LeChuck is beginning to fringe on Benny Hill satire, and for a game with prospective seasons that's not a food thing.
That's not to say LeChuck should be retired ultimately as he should remain somehow integral to Monkey Island lore but without saturating the plot with cliche.
Instead, modeling off the filmic adaptations of C.S. Lewis' Narnia Chronicles, the producers deliberately permeated the past two subsequent films to 'The lion, the witch, and the wardrobe' with varying incarnations of the White Witch who in the text was mentioned in name only not physical apparition. In this way the producers were able to add the much-needed antagonist to the contemporary audience that demand good vs evil themes despite the original text not intending this.
What I'm saying is that their are obvious other means to bring LeChuck back without having some new funky incarnation. I Love the idea that LeChuck may have some influence outside his jar prison. This is especially ominous as LeChuck's power is unchallenged even without a carporial form to muster this influence.
As an example, a storyline might encompass LeChuck escaping the jar but having no physical form to cling to so he must jump from character to character in order to survive and continue his reign of terror. All he needs is an ambitious side Villain who has the means to play out LeChuck's FINAL confrontation with Guybrush - the meddlesome fool that conquered the mighty pirate god.
In this way I can definitely see a lot more emotion added to the story as Guybrush will have to choose between finally destroying (somehow) the shred of LeChuck, but at a heavy price - killing someone he holds dear to him, either a LeChuck infested Elaine or Morgan.
That's just one of a number of storylines I can think of.
And to avoid retcon cliche, perhaps the best antagonist for Guybrush would be Morgan.
Ultimately,
- bring LeChuck back to the plot in a small way but not as the main antagonist, have him influence the main antagonist.
- or use LeChuck as a major plot element where a number of rising villains seeking to fill the power vacuum LeChuck left, using his mojo voodoo essence to empower that villain seeking it out. The Voodoo Lady therefore can still act her same part and attempt to protect the unholy essence (who's power was made example by the previous Pox) from grubby megalomaniac pirate hands.
[/rant]
[edit]
rereading I realize I may have repeated Farlander's post.
I think he put it more aptly.
Regarding the next villain... New one. Please. Or, if to reuse any of the established characters, Ghost Pirate Hunter Morgan LeFlay might prove to be a worthy adversary (not to mention having her as the main villain will increase the drama).
And to avoid retcon cliche, perhaps the best antagonist for Guybrush would be Morgan.
I never really gave the idea of 'Morgan being the main antagonist' much thought, but now that I actually sit and think about it, I really don't want Morgan to be an antagonist to Guybrush; I would much rather her be an ally.
Because look at the characters' relationship development throughout 'Tales...'. We originally heard/saw her for the first time at the end of 'Launch...' and the beginning of 'Siege...', and she was an antagonist then. She was Guybrush's opposition and enemy simply because she's was being paid to kill him (and she also wanted him as a trophy and achievement); she had nothing against him personally.
Later on, she was forced to spend time with Guybrush inside a giant manatee, and was forced to actually work together with him in order to escape. We saw some drama between the two; there was conflict of opinion, Morgan realized that the real Guybrush wasn't the one she idolized, and there was a bit of tension and bitterness between the two. After getting out of the manatee, Morgan and Guybrush had to collaborate once more in order to retrieve La Esponja Grande, and [later] escape their cages so that they could go after Coronado De Cava. During all of this, a sort of friendship formed, and some may argue that even a love/like relationship formed.
Morgan, of course, eventually betrayed Guybrush and brought him into De Singe. Guybrush basically hated her for this, and felt a bit of asperity towards her throughout the entire episode, with Morgan herself feeling guilt and remorse for what she had done. She even tried to redeem herself, being killed in the process, Guybrush finding her in her last few moments of life. Then followed the extremely sad, and intimate cutscene that we all remember so clearly.
Then in the afterlife/pirate purgatory, Guybrush was able to bring comfort to an extremely depressed and demoralized Morgan. After that, all of the tension that the characters felt towards each other simply dissipated, and they had become good friends. Guybrush and Morgan once again worked together to escape the afterlife, with Morgan actually sacrificing her reputation (and independence) so that Guybrush could go forth to save his wife and stop LeChuck (Morgan even aided in the killing of LeChuck).
So, to sum things up, Morgan and Guybrush went from occupational enemies, to collaborators, to good acquaintances, to personal enemies, before both feeling remorse for their actions/words, before they both died, reunited in the afterlife, and finally became good friends. The journey that both of the characters spent together (both the relational journey and the physical journey) was a long, and quite epic one with many twists and turns. And, in the end, it resulted in the characters becoming friends. Now, I think that that little sub-story is actually really nice and actually quite a profound thing. The characters grew closer, even through adversity (I'm going over the top here), and the story is actually semi-inspirational.
So, if Morgan were to become the villain or antagonist in the next Monkey Island game, then I would actually be somewhat annoyed. It would seem like a complete disregard for all that transpired in 'Tales...'. The whole friendship between the characters that was formed over the course of ToMI would simply be thrown away, and the two characters would just go back to square one - right where they were at the end of 'Launch...'. I don't want that; it would be a crap way of concluding what we saw in 'Tales...'.
So that's why I think Morgan should be Guybrush's ally, rather than he enemy.
I think keeping LeChuck out of the next game would go a long way to keep him from becoming a Saturday cartoon villain. As much as I dislike MI2, his character in that game is dreadfully vile. I think it would help to let him sit out a few and return with some amazing new plan to avenge himself or reassert his role as the threat of the seas.
By the way, what sort of "LeChuck fueled enemies" did you have in mind? What would they be and what would they look like? Ghosts, skeletons, various obscure incarnations of LeChuck? Sorry if I'm carrying things slightly off-topic, I'm just interested to know.
I haven't gave much thought to that particular aspect as to what exactly the villain(s) would be. The thing is, to create a villain which would suit Voodoo Lady's goals, one has to, well, KNOW her goals... And I don't have any idea, though it would be fun to speculate.
We know two things: 1. Guybrush can practically take care of any normal Voodoo stuff. 2. LeChuck, though uses Voodoo, despises it and perverts it - his magic is what the Voodoo Lady called an abomination - something very perverted, and that may probably mean more powerful and dangerous than Voodoo. Yet, still, LeChuck was mostly Voodoo and he mostly used Voodoo. But by having his essence, the Voodoo Lady may distill the Voodoo part, separating from it this dangerous abomination-thingy part to prepare new challenges for Guybrush, as the real non-Voodoo-abomination-thingy is what will threaten the balance of things in nature.
That means the new threat is non-Voodoo. Not ghosts, zombies, or anything like that. In fact, Guybrush may as well need the help of everything Voodoo-related stuff he can (maybe being forced to send Morgan to the Crossroads and the land of the dead, via root beer, so she could organize something like, I dunno, a grand escape? O_o Heck, just brainstorming here, you know).
And at this point I come to a stump, gotta think more about it. I can't think of a danger that would threaten the Voodoo stuff and the balance itself, and that would not be cliche or out of place... Any ideas? O_o
PS. BTW, of course Guybrush has to battle this new threat without knowing about any involvement from the Voodoo Lady, and without her help too.
Maybe she needed LeChuck's essence to help against another voodish threat. A voodoo man to her voodoo woman. Maybe the next threat is a human pirate of some sort seeking LeChuck's essence. Maybe Guybrush will need the essence to battle the Loa, like Baron Samedi. Or maybe the Voodoo Lady really is a bad egg.
Some people say that having LeChuck in every game is getting stale, but I hear no complains about Bowser, Ganondorf, Ridley etc return in each of their franchises.
I rather have him be the master puppeteer in the next game, who won't be shown until the final chapter/end of the game (yeah, could be kinda similar like how Zant was being manipulated by Ganondorf).
Or maybe a quest for Guybrush to stop LeChuck from being resurrected by a new bad guy. Guybrush thinks he succeeded, but the post game credits scene showing the resurrection was a succes. Bringing LeChuck back as the main villain for the next game.
Some people say that having LeChuck in every game is getting stale, but I hear no complains about Bowser, Ganondorf, Ridley etc return in each of their franchises.
None of them were the ONLY villains of their franchises. Super Mario had Tatanga, Wario, Koopalings and that frog guy. Zelda had Vaati and a bunch of minor villains. Metroid had Mother Brain. Monkey Island only had Ozzie and DeSinge and none of them made it to the throne of main villain.
It IS pretty normal that you can hear no complaints about those examples in a thread about LeChuck, you know. And, well, you can hear little to no complaints about them because they always either tried to give something new or made necessary switches over time, meaning they did overcome the hazard of becoming stale. Maybe not perfectly, but they did their job better than LeChuck did for himself.
This might seem stupid, but I would like to see Murray in a villainous role. After being mocked by Guybrush throughout the series, wouldn't it be refreshing to see him as an actual threat?
This might seem stupid, but I would like to see Murray in a villainous role. After being mocked by Guybrush throughout the series, wouldn't it be refreshing to see him as an actual threat?
I've heard people mention this before, and I just can't see it working, for several reasons.
See, Murray has always been characterized as over-ambitious and zealous, but unable to act upon those traits due to his current position (being just a skull). The whole situation/scenario is hilarious because it's so absurd. And his actualposition that he's in is half what makes the character so hilarious and so likable. If he weren't in his unfortunate position as 'just a skull', then I'm afraid things would just feel strange - Murray's characteristics and personality have been built and shaped around his circumstances/position/situation. So, if he were to be put in a different position (i.e. given a body, and placed in a role where he's meant to be a 'threat'), then I'm afraid all of things that make up Murray's character would simply feel out-of-place.
Also, due to the way he's been characterized, Murray does not feel the least bit threatening... at all. We, as the audience, have been laughing at him since the moment we saw him. He laugh at him because he's completely incapable of doing anything that he wants to, or anything that he says he's going to do. He's a 'silly' sort of character, like the dart players, the figurehead, Mancomb Seepgood, Marco de Pollo, the lookout, Jumbeaux LaFeet - he's placed in the story for comedy and little else. So, if he were to be elevated to the role of 'main villain', that whole game would just feel way too frivolous, absurd, and the whole thing would just seem like one big joke. Murray isn't a character that can be taken seriously, and if he were to be put into a role where he was meant to be taken seriously, then the whole thing would just feel incredibly forced and far-fetched.
All-in-all, it simply wouldn't work. Murray is a great character to be used as a mouth for funny dialogue, a tool for interesting puzzles (as an inventory item), and occasionally as a minor character with a small significance in the story, but nothing else.
Basically, it would destroy his well-established character and turn him into something that's not very interesting or funny anymore. He is much better as a minor regular that comes back as a comic relief or part of a puzzle.
Personally, I would actually love a Monkey Island game where you play as LeChuck. Imagine this: LeChuck is still just an essence. You play the first part getting back your body or at least turning into his ghost (his original undead form). Now your next plan is, as always becoming more powerful, getting rid of Guybrush along the way and marrying Elaine. In this game, you will actually win, and after the end credits, we see a cutscene that hints us that Guybrush finds a way out of whatever situation he's currently in (something seemingly impossible as always). The sequel to that again, will see us controlling Guybrush again, trying fix the things that you (as LeChuck) did in the last game, getting back to normal once again.
Why not? I think LeChuck is easily as popular as Guybrush as a character. If there's gonna be a change/switch of playable character at some point, LeChuck would be my first choice. Elaine would be my second, but then you might as well just play as Guybrush now that they're more or less two sides of the same coin.
Much better than just tossing some new character from out of nowhere at least. Very few point'n'click adventures with an on-going story have gone on for so long with the same character. Leisure Suit Larry is one, but the story really is very loosely connected, unlike in MI, where each story is more or less a continuation of the last (except EMI which even Telltale pretended didn't happen so that they didn't have to explain how LeChuck got back).
If the story is going to be continue being as connected and having as much continuation as that, then I think there's a need for a change of main character at some point, if only temporarily.
If the story is going to be continue being as connected and having as much continuation as that, then I think there's a need for a change of main character at some point, if only temporarily.
When there will be no stories left to tell, it would be better to wrap things up, end the series and leave it be. In my opinion, Monkey Island is something like Indiana Jones series, or Space Quest - it doesn't have a universe interesting or deep enough to be worth exploring out of Guybrush's context.
[...] Elaine would be my second, but then you might as well just play as Guybrush now that they're more or less two sides of the same coin.
I'd have to disagree with that. I mean, Elaine's been established to be more competent than Guybrush since SoMI, and I can't see her handling situations (e.g. standing around solving puzzles) the way Guybrush does. Honestly, I think it'd be kind of interesting to get a chance to play through how she deals with situations.
[...] Elaine would be my second, but then you might as well just play as Guybrush now that they're more or less two sides of the same coin.
I'd have to disagree with that. I mean, Elaine's been established to be more competent than Guybrush since SoMI, and I can't see her handling situations (e.g. standing around solving puzzles) the way Guybrush does. Honestly, I think it'd be kind of interesting to get a chance to play through how she deals with it.
Basically, it would destroy his well-established character and turn him into something that's not very interesting or funny anymore. He is much better as a minor regular that comes back as a comic relief or part of a puzzle.
Thanks, that's mostly what I was trying to get across in my ramblings.
Personally, I would actually love a Monkey Island game where you play as LeChuck. Imagine this: LeChuck is still just an essence. You play the first part getting back your body or at least turning into his ghost (his original undead form). Now your next plan is, as always becoming more powerful, getting rid of Guybrush along the way and marrying Elaine. In this game, you will actually win, and after the end credits, we see a cutscene that hints us that Guybrush finds a way out of whatever situation he's currently in (something seemingly impossible as always). The sequel to that again, will see us controlling Guybrush again, trying fix the things that you (as LeChuck) did in the last game, getting back to normal once again.
Interesting idea, but I actually think alkapel is right. Monkey Island games don't come along very often, and having LeChuck be the first different main character in six games would be a pretty big experiment. So, it would be quite a massive risk, and if it doesn't turn out as good as first thought, then the whole community will have to wait (based on the average gap between each game) another 4 years for it to be redeemed with a good, classic Monkey Island game. Tampering with the formula would be too much of a risk. For sure, if it was a huge franchise, and they pumped these games out every 2 years, then there might be some room for experimentation, but with the current schedule, I personally wouldn't want the developers to try something that drastically different.
And, to be completely honest, I really don't think it would work out as well as you're thinking it will. Look, LeChuck is a great character, for sure, we've established that. But what makes Guybrush such a great character to play as is the fact that his personality is so flexible - he can make things funny and interesting in any situation. His commentary of his surroundings and experiences is what makes him so great to control. LeChuck, I'm afraid, just doesn't have that. LeChuck can be very funny, but his humour really only comes out best when he's interacting with Guybrush. He doesn't have that cheeky, sarcastic side to him that Guybrush has, so having him as the main character as opposed to Guybrush would only result in a duller experience.
Comments
exactly
It wouldnt even be Monkey Island
- LeChuck comes back from the dead.
- LeChuck tries to take control over the Caribbean and force Elaine to marry him. This has happened in basically all of the games; the only bit of differentiation we had in this regard was in 'Revenge...', but even that followed the same formula to some degree.
- Guybrush tries to stop LeChuck from doing so, but must overcome some sort of boundary or restriction. In 'Secret...', he was a hopeless rookie pirate who had to make it all the way to Monkey Island, in 'Curse...', it was LeChuck's child spell that he had to counteract, in 'Escape...', it was being stranded on Monkey Island and having to escape, and in 'Tales...', it was death.
- Guybrush overcomes incredible odds in order to finally be able to face LeChuck.
- A showdown between the two characters takes place, usually with LeChuck chasing after Guybrush.
- Guybrush then foils LeChuck's master plan, and Elaine and Guybrush are back in each other's arms.
Now, I don't actually blame the writers for this repetition; I actually think that it's near impossible to steer the series in a different direction. Why? Because LeChuck is still being brought back (from the dead... literally) to fill his regular role. Because the character has, in a way, grown into a character that just is LeChuck, it has become difficult to mix things up story-wise when he's occupying such a major role. LeChuck has become almost as much as a real person than most video game characters - he has his own personality, his own characteristics, intentions, aspirations, mannerisms, etc. The character is LeChuck; all of his characteristics are simply ingrained in the character, and cannot be changed. LeChuck keeps trying to fulfill the same goals, and that's because it's simply what is expected from the character, just as you world expect a real person to do a particular thing under a particular circumstance (gosh, I hope I'm making sense here). So, since it's just in LeChuck's nature to continue pursuing the same goal, and since that same goal becomes the main plot element in every Monkey Island game, it just causes things to become repetitive.
Yes, the writers of the series have done a wonderful job of mixing things up, and have done well to dress up each game in order to disguise it as a new story, but once you actually strip away everything to the bare essentials of each game, you've got the very same plotline. And that's because LeChuck is still in that very same role - main villain. Do you see what I'm getting at here? The character of LeChuck must go. Mixing things up with the character in the story is too difficult, keeping things the same with the LeChuck in the story will only lead to more of the same, so the only option is to get rid of him. Or at least relegate him to a minor role, but I don't see how this could work either; LeChuck would either rise to be the main villain by the end anyway, or things would seem out-of-place.
Now, I love the character of LeChuck, but things are bordering upon ridiculous when you look at the sameness of each game's main plot. And as great as LeChuck is as a villain, there's no reason why the writers can't think up a new villain who's just as cool. I mean, Telltale were able to come up with Morgan LeFlay, who many would consider cooler than Carla, and who some think would be a better leading lady than Elaine. This shows that new characters aren't necessarily a bad thing; in fact, they're a very good thing. So why are people so afraid of change? Why aren't people open to having new characters replace old characters from time to time? 'Sam & Max' has never had the same main villain from game-to-game (even episode-to-episode, when I think about it), and it's good! It provides variety and juxtaposition, and eliminates repetition and prevents the series from becoming stale. It's time for MI to do the same.
I can talk more on this, but this post is long enough as it is.
Precisely; 'Monkey Island' would be slightly different, for once, and it would be a good thing.
I disagree; 'Monkey Island' wouldn't be 'Monkey Island' without Guybrush. If LeChuck were to be excluded, there would just be a bit of differentiation.
It'd be neat if say, LeChuck hypnotised Guybrush into being a bad guy, and we as the player are what's left of Real Guybrush, and have to do things that seem evil but are actually attempts to regain control and stop LeChuck.
What, so things like thievery, trespassing, witchcraft, grave-robbery? No, that's just not like Guybrush.
I think Monkey Island has not be about Guybrush battling LeChuck its one of the only constants in the series. In 2 there was no monkey island (till retcon) and LeChuck wasnt intrested in Elane only in hurting Guybrush.
Besides, what will be LeChuck's goal? Revenge on Guybrush? Marry Elaine? Domination over the Caribbean? Boooooooriiiiiiing. Besides, he completed every one of these in ToMI (albeit not for a very long period, but still). That's why developers must not always listen to the fans (and fan service is not always a good thing). 'Monkey Island is not Monkey Island without *something* (in this case LeChuck)'. So they put LeChuck in every game. The result? LeChuck is an incompetent repetitive bland comic villain in half of them (by the way, Ozzie in EMI would've worked a lot better without LeChuck). They put Monkey Island in CMI and EMI (and retcon MI2) because, well, 'How can Monkey Island game be a Monkey Island game without Monkey Island'? The result? Worst game sections in both of them. I can go on. The point is... we don't need LeChuck. Sure, we like him (well... I like him in MI2 and ToMI), sure, he's one of the biggest MI symbols, but he needs to retire. AT LEAST for a while (at least one game, though I wouldn't mind 2-3 before we can rest from him and he can return for one reason or another, with another, hopefully, bang). But I wouldn't mind not seeing LeChuck at all again.
Regarding the next villain... New one. Please. Or, if to reuse any of the established characters, Ghost Pirate Hunter Morgan LeFlay might prove to be a worthy adversary (not to mention having her as the main villain will increase the drama).
Seconded. Strongly. Thank you.
ToMI's ending indicates that LeChuck won't be a main villain the first time, even if he's going to be a villain, resurrected by Voodoo Lady -her plans might be different than simply resurrecting LeChuck though.
I support Voodoo Lady as the main antagonist for a change (or someone new with superior voodoo skills). I don't really want to see LeChuck being totally absent in a MI game, but him as an ally against the main antagonist wouldn't be that bad. It wouldn't be a new thing, I know, apart from its clichéness it's also done in ToMI, but in that game LeChuck was plotting something bigger whereas in this game LeChuck's only goal might only be survival and the only way to obtain it is to fully trust and ally Guybrush.
Of course, Ron loved to mess with people's heads (as shown in the ending of MI2), so the Voodoo Lady could very well have been the main villain all the time, surprising both Guybrush and LeChuck in his final game with her ingenius plan to merge future and past into one bubble within the Bermuda triangle, hence a slow trickle of modern devices into the pirate world.
While I'm not against the idea of the Voodoo Lady being the main villain/antagonist, I would prefer it if she weren't evil. I, myself, think of the Voodoo Lady as neither good nor evil; but somewhere in between. I've always had the idea that she doesn't belong to one side, but instead has her own agenda and is sort of ignorant to the whole idea of good & evil.
Another theory I have for her is that she does not hope for either good nor evil to prevail, but rather believes in a balance of the two, and perhaps works to maintain that balance through her powers. This is more of just a simple idea rather than a theory.
But that's just how I've always thought of her, so I'm not sure if I'd like her to be depicted as directly 'evil'.
We had a good discussion regarding this over at the WorldofMI forums.
Edit: Hah! Seems I'm not the only one with the 'balance' theory ^.
Hell, with that stinger, I have a hard time legitimizing bringing him back immediately. Elaine and Guybrush think the cycle has been stopped, that LeChuck isn't coming back at best, or at worst he'll be gone for longer than normal. We the gamer know that isn't the case, but wouldn't it be awesome to leave LeChuck's return alone for a game or two and then let him come back with a bang after a new villain's been established and put the guy out of commission? I'd be a good way to bring him back and let his return be a bit of a twist instead of an expected part of the plot and story-wise Elaine and Guybrush wouldn't necessarily be expecting it, letting LeChuck sort of burst onto the scene and take advantage of things before either of them could get their bearings.
On the Voodoo Lady as the villain thing, I'm more inclined to believe the balance argument since she has been legitimately helping Guybrush since SoMI. However, I'd like to see some light shed her rather shadowy role in following games, as I imagine most would.
This, right here.
Wouldn't LeChuck's return just be so much more of a novelty if his absence were prolonged? And, like mgrant sort of touched on, wouldn't his return seem so much more threatening, and wouldn't the character himself feel so much more infamous if he were to re-appear on the scene out of the blue, catching each character by surprise?
If the character is to maintain any credibility as an actual villain, his return simply cannot be at the beginning of the next Monkey Island game.
a) LeChuck, being an essence
b) It will help with establishing what master plan the Voodoo Lady has.
c) We will have a new villain.
I like the idea.
By the way, what sort of "LeChuck fueled enemies" did you have in mind? What would they be and what would they look like? Ghosts, skeletons, various obscure incarnations of LeChuck? Sorry if I'm carrying things slightly off-topic, I'm just interested to know.
What do we do about you buddy?
Personally I never want to see Largo return, and those optimistic he will should invest their piece of eight in something more thrilling.
Largo was one-dimensional in every sense of the character, he only served as a means to bring LeChuck back into the picture and in part play in the downfall of LeChuck again by inadvertently aiding Guybrush through his incompetence.
As an antagonist bringing Largo back would be as useless as bringing say Pegnose Pete back to fill the role.
I don't want to agree with Hayden and Farlander, but admittedly LeChuck is beginning to fringe on Benny Hill satire, and for a game with prospective seasons that's not a food thing.
That's not to say LeChuck should be retired ultimately as he should remain somehow integral to Monkey Island lore but without saturating the plot with cliche.
Instead, modeling off the filmic adaptations of C.S. Lewis' Narnia Chronicles, the producers deliberately permeated the past two subsequent films to 'The lion, the witch, and the wardrobe' with varying incarnations of the White Witch who in the text was mentioned in name only not physical apparition. In this way the producers were able to add the much-needed antagonist to the contemporary audience that demand good vs evil themes despite the original text not intending this.
What I'm saying is that their are obvious other means to bring LeChuck back without having some new funky incarnation. I Love the idea that LeChuck may have some influence outside his jar prison. This is especially ominous as LeChuck's power is unchallenged even without a carporial form to muster this influence.
As an example, a storyline might encompass LeChuck escaping the jar but having no physical form to cling to so he must jump from character to character in order to survive and continue his reign of terror. All he needs is an ambitious side Villain who has the means to play out LeChuck's FINAL confrontation with Guybrush - the meddlesome fool that conquered the mighty pirate god.
In this way I can definitely see a lot more emotion added to the story as Guybrush will have to choose between finally destroying (somehow) the shred of LeChuck, but at a heavy price - killing someone he holds dear to him, either a LeChuck infested Elaine or Morgan.
That's just one of a number of storylines I can think of.
And to avoid retcon cliche, perhaps the best antagonist for Guybrush would be Morgan.
Ultimately,
- bring LeChuck back to the plot in a small way but not as the main antagonist, have him influence the main antagonist.
- or use LeChuck as a major plot element where a number of rising villains seeking to fill the power vacuum LeChuck left, using his mojo voodoo essence to empower that villain seeking it out. The Voodoo Lady therefore can still act her same part and attempt to protect the unholy essence (who's power was made example by the previous Pox) from grubby megalomaniac pirate hands.
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[edit]
rereading I realize I may have repeated Farlander's post.
I think he put it more aptly.
I never really gave the idea of 'Morgan being the main antagonist' much thought, but now that I actually sit and think about it, I really don't want Morgan to be an antagonist to Guybrush; I would much rather her be an ally.
Because look at the characters' relationship development throughout 'Tales...'. We originally heard/saw her for the first time at the end of 'Launch...' and the beginning of 'Siege...', and she was an antagonist then. She was Guybrush's opposition and enemy simply because she's was being paid to kill him (and she also wanted him as a trophy and achievement); she had nothing against him personally.
Later on, she was forced to spend time with Guybrush inside a giant manatee, and was forced to actually work together with him in order to escape. We saw some drama between the two; there was conflict of opinion, Morgan realized that the real Guybrush wasn't the one she idolized, and there was a bit of tension and bitterness between the two. After getting out of the manatee, Morgan and Guybrush had to collaborate once more in order to retrieve La Esponja Grande, and [later] escape their cages so that they could go after Coronado De Cava. During all of this, a sort of friendship formed, and some may argue that even a love/like relationship formed.
Morgan, of course, eventually betrayed Guybrush and brought him into De Singe. Guybrush basically hated her for this, and felt a bit of asperity towards her throughout the entire episode, with Morgan herself feeling guilt and remorse for what she had done. She even tried to redeem herself, being killed in the process, Guybrush finding her in her last few moments of life. Then followed the extremely sad, and intimate cutscene that we all remember so clearly.
Then in the afterlife/pirate purgatory, Guybrush was able to bring comfort to an extremely depressed and demoralized Morgan. After that, all of the tension that the characters felt towards each other simply dissipated, and they had become good friends. Guybrush and Morgan once again worked together to escape the afterlife, with Morgan actually sacrificing her reputation (and independence) so that Guybrush could go forth to save his wife and stop LeChuck (Morgan even aided in the killing of LeChuck).
So, to sum things up, Morgan and Guybrush went from occupational enemies, to collaborators, to good acquaintances, to personal enemies, before both feeling remorse for their actions/words, before they both died, reunited in the afterlife, and finally became good friends. The journey that both of the characters spent together (both the relational journey and the physical journey) was a long, and quite epic one with many twists and turns. And, in the end, it resulted in the characters becoming friends. Now, I think that that little sub-story is actually really nice and actually quite a profound thing. The characters grew closer, even through adversity (I'm going over the top here), and the story is actually semi-inspirational.
So, if Morgan were to become the villain or antagonist in the next Monkey Island game, then I would actually be somewhat annoyed. It would seem like a complete disregard for all that transpired in 'Tales...'. The whole friendship between the characters that was formed over the course of ToMI would simply be thrown away, and the two characters would just go back to square one - right where they were at the end of 'Launch...'. I don't want that; it would be a crap way of concluding what we saw in 'Tales...'.
So that's why I think Morgan should be Guybrush's ally, rather than he enemy.
I haven't gave much thought to that particular aspect as to what exactly the villain(s) would be. The thing is, to create a villain which would suit Voodoo Lady's goals, one has to, well, KNOW her goals... And I don't have any idea, though it would be fun to speculate.
We know two things: 1. Guybrush can practically take care of any normal Voodoo stuff. 2. LeChuck, though uses Voodoo, despises it and perverts it - his magic is what the Voodoo Lady called an abomination - something very perverted, and that may probably mean more powerful and dangerous than Voodoo. Yet, still, LeChuck was mostly Voodoo and he mostly used Voodoo. But by having his essence, the Voodoo Lady may distill the Voodoo part, separating from it this dangerous abomination-thingy part to prepare new challenges for Guybrush, as the real non-Voodoo-abomination-thingy is what will threaten the balance of things in nature.
That means the new threat is non-Voodoo. Not ghosts, zombies, or anything like that. In fact, Guybrush may as well need the help of everything Voodoo-related stuff he can (maybe being forced to send Morgan to the Crossroads and the land of the dead, via root beer, so she could organize something like, I dunno, a grand escape? O_o Heck, just brainstorming here, you know).
And at this point I come to a stump, gotta think more about it. I can't think of a danger that would threaten the Voodoo stuff and the balance itself, and that would not be cliche or out of place... Any ideas? O_o
PS. BTW, of course Guybrush has to battle this new threat without knowing about any involvement from the Voodoo Lady, and without her help too.
I rather have him be the master puppeteer in the next game, who won't be shown until the final chapter/end of the game (yeah, could be kinda similar like how Zant was being manipulated by Ganondorf).
Or maybe a quest for Guybrush to stop LeChuck from being resurrected by a new bad guy. Guybrush thinks he succeeded, but the post game credits scene showing the resurrection was a succes. Bringing LeChuck back as the main villain for the next game.
None of them were the ONLY villains of their franchises. Super Mario had Tatanga, Wario, Koopalings and that frog guy. Zelda had Vaati and a bunch of minor villains. Metroid had Mother Brain. Monkey Island only had Ozzie and DeSinge and none of them made it to the throne of main villain.
It IS pretty normal that you can hear no complaints about those examples in a thread about LeChuck, you know. And, well, you can hear little to no complaints about them because they always either tried to give something new or made necessary switches over time, meaning they did overcome the hazard of becoming stale. Maybe not perfectly, but they did their job better than LeChuck did for himself.
I've heard people mention this before, and I just can't see it working, for several reasons.
See, Murray has always been characterized as over-ambitious and zealous, but unable to act upon those traits due to his current position (being just a skull). The whole situation/scenario is hilarious because it's so absurd. And his actual position that he's in is half what makes the character so hilarious and so likable. If he weren't in his unfortunate position as 'just a skull', then I'm afraid things would just feel strange - Murray's characteristics and personality have been built and shaped around his circumstances/position/situation. So, if he were to be put in a different position (i.e. given a body, and placed in a role where he's meant to be a 'threat'), then I'm afraid all of things that make up Murray's character would simply feel out-of-place.
Also, due to the way he's been characterized, Murray does not feel the least bit threatening... at all. We, as the audience, have been laughing at him since the moment we saw him. He laugh at him because he's completely incapable of doing anything that he wants to, or anything that he says he's going to do. He's a 'silly' sort of character, like the dart players, the figurehead, Mancomb Seepgood, Marco de Pollo, the lookout, Jumbeaux LaFeet - he's placed in the story for comedy and little else. So, if he were to be elevated to the role of 'main villain', that whole game would just feel way too frivolous, absurd, and the whole thing would just seem like one big joke. Murray isn't a character that can be taken seriously, and if he were to be put into a role where he was meant to be taken seriously, then the whole thing would just feel incredibly forced and far-fetched.
All-in-all, it simply wouldn't work. Murray is a great character to be used as a mouth for funny dialogue, a tool for interesting puzzles (as an inventory item), and occasionally as a minor character with a small significance in the story, but nothing else.
Personally, I would actually love a Monkey Island game where you play as LeChuck. Imagine this: LeChuck is still just an essence. You play the first part getting back your body or at least turning into his ghost (his original undead form). Now your next plan is, as always becoming more powerful, getting rid of Guybrush along the way and marrying Elaine. In this game, you will actually win, and after the end credits, we see a cutscene that hints us that Guybrush finds a way out of whatever situation he's currently in (something seemingly impossible as always). The sequel to that again, will see us controlling Guybrush again, trying fix the things that you (as LeChuck) did in the last game, getting back to normal once again.
Much better than just tossing some new character from out of nowhere at least. Very few point'n'click adventures with an on-going story have gone on for so long with the same character. Leisure Suit Larry is one, but the story really is very loosely connected, unlike in MI, where each story is more or less a continuation of the last (except EMI which even Telltale pretended didn't happen so that they didn't have to explain how LeChuck got back).
If the story is going to be continue being as connected and having as much continuation as that, then I think there's a need for a change of main character at some point, if only temporarily.
When there will be no stories left to tell, it would be better to wrap things up, end the series and leave it be. In my opinion, Monkey Island is something like Indiana Jones series, or Space Quest - it doesn't have a universe interesting or deep enough to be worth exploring out of Guybrush's context.
I'd have to disagree with that. I mean, Elaine's been established to be more competent than Guybrush since SoMI, and I can't see her handling situations (e.g. standing around solving puzzles) the way Guybrush does. Honestly, I think it'd be kind of interesting to get a chance to play through how she deals with situations.
I'd have to disagree with that. I mean, Elaine's been established to be more competent than Guybrush since SoMI, and I can't see her handling situations (e.g. standing around solving puzzles) the way Guybrush does. Honestly, I think it'd be kind of interesting to get a chance to play through how she deals with it.
Thanks, that's mostly what I was trying to get across in my ramblings.
Interesting idea, but I actually think alkapel is right. Monkey Island games don't come along very often, and having LeChuck be the first different main character in six games would be a pretty big experiment. So, it would be quite a massive risk, and if it doesn't turn out as good as first thought, then the whole community will have to wait (based on the average gap between each game) another 4 years for it to be redeemed with a good, classic Monkey Island game. Tampering with the formula would be too much of a risk. For sure, if it was a huge franchise, and they pumped these games out every 2 years, then there might be some room for experimentation, but with the current schedule, I personally wouldn't want the developers to try something that drastically different.
And, to be completely honest, I really don't think it would work out as well as you're thinking it will. Look, LeChuck is a great character, for sure, we've established that. But what makes Guybrush such a great character to play as is the fact that his personality is so flexible - he can make things funny and interesting in any situation. His commentary of his surroundings and experiences is what makes him so great to control. LeChuck, I'm afraid, just doesn't have that. LeChuck can be very funny, but his humour really only comes out best when he's interacting with Guybrush. He doesn't have that cheeky, sarcastic side to him that Guybrush has, so having him as the main character as opposed to Guybrush would only result in a duller experience.