"You're not thinking fifth-dimensionally!"
The BTTF movies always hinge themselves on the fourth-dimensional idea that time is linear, and that any changes we make can result in universe-destroying paradoxes. But I found if you approach the BTTF trilogy from a fifth-dimensional perspective (fifth-dimension, in this case, being infinite probabilities, where paradoxes are corrected by the means of multiple time-lines, so no one can ever be erased from history) the trilogy actually ends halfway through the second movie.
The first movie is fine. By accidentally traveling back in time from 1985-A, and accidentally changing the past, Marty ends up in an alternate 1985-B where his 1985-B counterpart has also accidentally gone back in time, stranding the 1985-A Marty with the 1985-B family. Marty's original time-line (1985-A) is still intact, but Marty can never return to it.
In the second movie, Doc arrives from 2015-B where Marty Jr. is arrested, but then by bringing Marty along to stop it, he changes lanes into an alternate 2015-C where Griff gets arrested instead. So far, so good, because they can still return to the 1985-B they left from, and 1985-C would pick up from there.
But then Biff steals the Delorean and goes back in time to 1955-A with the Almanac. By changing the past, he would create a completely separate 2015-D to return to where Marty and Doc don't exist. They'd still be trapped in 2015-C after rescuing Jennifer and wondering where their car disappeared to.
So even if Doc built another time machine in 2015-C, he, Marty and Jennifer wouldn't travel back to Biff's 1985-D because that time-line is only accessible from 1955-D. They'd just wind up back in 1985-B and their adventures would end. No cowboys, no Clara - just Marty and Jennifer going to the lake. Meanwhile Biff would grow fat off his money in 1985-D, and Old Biff would spend the rest of his days joy-riding around in Doc's Delorean, creating tons of new time-lines and probably having lots of adventures.
The first movie is fine. By accidentally traveling back in time from 1985-A, and accidentally changing the past, Marty ends up in an alternate 1985-B where his 1985-B counterpart has also accidentally gone back in time, stranding the 1985-A Marty with the 1985-B family. Marty's original time-line (1985-A) is still intact, but Marty can never return to it.
In the second movie, Doc arrives from 2015-B where Marty Jr. is arrested, but then by bringing Marty along to stop it, he changes lanes into an alternate 2015-C where Griff gets arrested instead. So far, so good, because they can still return to the 1985-B they left from, and 1985-C would pick up from there.
But then Biff steals the Delorean and goes back in time to 1955-A with the Almanac. By changing the past, he would create a completely separate 2015-D to return to where Marty and Doc don't exist. They'd still be trapped in 2015-C after rescuing Jennifer and wondering where their car disappeared to.
So even if Doc built another time machine in 2015-C, he, Marty and Jennifer wouldn't travel back to Biff's 1985-D because that time-line is only accessible from 1955-D. They'd just wind up back in 1985-B and their adventures would end. No cowboys, no Clara - just Marty and Jennifer going to the lake. Meanwhile Biff would grow fat off his money in 1985-D, and Old Biff would spend the rest of his days joy-riding around in Doc's Delorean, creating tons of new time-lines and probably having lots of adventures.
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And marty and doc clearly still exist in the biffhoric timeline, they just face different timelines. Its no different than when marty returns to a different timeline at the end of part I.
Seriously though, it's explained in the movies that when timelines are altered, they do so around Marty and Doc. So this whole 1985-A Marty taking the place of 1985-B Marty scenario doesn't happen. The only reason Marty runs into himself is that he travels back to 1955-B where he sees himself in his own earlier timeline. Plus, the timeline doesn't change instantaneously, which is why it takes a while for old Biff to disappear after the fact (as seen in the deleted scene). If what you said was true, old Biff never would've disappeared, and he would return to 2015-C. The fact that he does disappear re-enforces the fact that he's changed his own timeline (much like what happened with Doc becoming FCB) instead of creating another carbon copy of himself in another timeline.
Ah, I was just about to comment on that. You beat me to it.
I guess it's my fault for not thinking eighth dimensionally.
Sure it happens. It's like in "Citizen Brown" where there's two Martins in the same time period, except the FCB Marty is off at camp. Except that when 1985-A Marty appears in 1985-B at the end of the first movie, it can be assumed that that's 1985-B Marty driving off in the Delorean in the parking lot. And since he's likely to end up changing his own past as well, 1985-B Marty will probably end up in some other unsung alternate universe while 1985-A Marty (our main character) settles comfortably into his new life in 1985-B.
Keep in mind, I'm just exploring the hypothetical idea of a BTTF universe where there are no paradoxes and plot-holes aren't filled in with movie magic. I've been reading up on superstring theory which covers multiple dimensions of time and space and it seems like the fifth dimension of time is what theoretically disproves the idea of paradoxes, because with infinite choices and time-lines, life would just keep going. Time travel would be a mess, sure - but theoretically, any change you make to the past should just switch you over to a different time-line while the original time-line stays intact elsewhere. In other words, Biff couldn't erase his own existence if he tried.
Yeah, I know BTTF is a fictional movie with it's own set of rules, but goshnabit - this is fun!
Anyone who can think eight-dimensionally is probably screaming in a padded cell right now.
Are you sure, I thought there was only Marty A in that timeline just like in the movies..
Or on a boat bound for R'lyeh to release Great Cthulhu from his prison for the stars are right at last!!!
Nope. I can't remember who it is you're talking to, but one of the characters says you're supposed to be off at Math Camp, and that you're scheduled to be back tomorrow. So Marty B (the nerdy Marty) still exists in that time-line; he just hasn't come back to Hill Valley yet, so everybody thinks you're him.
Of course, the fact that Marty doesn't disappear but Doc does implies either a flaw in BTTF's own time travel logic, or the possibility that a higher power (Cthulhu, maybe?) is enabling Marty to exist long enough to correct the time-stream.
We must consult the Necronomicon!
Yeah, your right. Now I remember, in the second movie Marty-B went to Switserland. I get it.
George mentions it when you ask him if you're supposed to be somewhere.
Doc disappears because in the Citizen Brown timeline, he doesn't live to be as old as he would have been had he invented the time machine. The Doc that invented the time machine also went to a rejuvenation clinic in 2015 which enabled him to add a few years onto his life. Citizen Brown did not have that luxury and dies earlier which results in the time-travelling Doc (the one in the DeLorean) to disappear.
Yeah, but then the Delorean should dissapear too. Yet it didn't..
The DeLorean was a temporal duplicate. Not only that, but by that logic, it should've vanished in Back to the Future 2 when they went back to 1985A.
In the second movie, Biff's version of 1985 has Doc Brown committed. Naturally, the DeLorean wouldn't have been invented due to those circumstances and yet, it still exists.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Good point
Then I guess by BTTF fourth-dimensional movie logic, it must mean that anything which time-travels must hold a certain amount of immunity against paradoxes. So by BTTF rules, if Episode 3 were to continue, both the Delorean and Marty himself would eventually vanish as well.
I always thought it was weird in BTTF3 how the picture of Doc's tombstone kept changing. Because then it would imply that in 1955, Marty took a picture of a blank tombstone/empty patch of ground for no reason, and then went back in time to save Doc for no reason.
It just occurred to me that the Delorean was also struck by lightning in BTTF1, so chances are that there's a second temporal duplicate around in the time-stream somewhere.
Not likely. The DeLorean in BTTF1 wasn't struck by lightning. The lightning was channeled through a cable from the clock tower, and into a hook and another cable. That would've bled off quite a bit of the charge. The lightning that struck the BTTF2 DeLorean came in direct contact with the time machine and overloaded the flux capacitor.
I was orignally thinking that could be the premise of episode 5. I'm sure they would want to leave Biff alone because they know he eventually brings it back but what if he sees them and changes his mind?
Also as for why there is not a second temporal duplicate in 1925; as mentioned, there were quite a few differences between the 2 lightning strikes; marty was going 88 mph, doc wasnt. Marty's the hook was channeled into flux capacitor, docs struck the car. Marty's had the time circuits on, docs didnt. Marty's had a destination time inputted, docs did not. On the last point it seems after a time travel, the destination time remains the same until a new time is entred. So had the time circuits been on when doc was struck by lightning, the destination time likely should have still read Novemeber 12 1955 6 AM
I have exactly the same opinion about the explanation of time-travel as you.
I know that there are loads of theories about them and very often every single person has its own explanation.
As you Datadog seem to think about that topic veeeeeeeery similar like I do, I would like to bring in some visualisation because this always helps me when thinking about the "logic" of time-travel.
Generally when speaking about the past, present and future and the possibility to go there AND manipulate things I think about it in this way:
Time is like a railway track and the path is our universe we live in.
Time-travelling is always jumping forward or backward along the trail. There's no possibility to jump of the trail (same rules as for a train
If you go back in time and alter something, it would work like altering a railway switch.
The railway track is still the same before the switch but the route is a different one after the switch. The connection to the original route is lost. And there's no way to get back on that old track. If you travel back to the future you will follow the new route after the switch and but you can't "jump" back on the old one. Like a train.
(The only possibility to get something you made undone would be to insert another switch before the first switch. But also in this case you could eventually just move the track closer to the original one but never ENTER it again.)
This understanding of timetravel provides a certain logic for me and it does exclude the so-called paradoxons.
I think this is the same as you said, Datadog.
Now as you said this would work in BTTF I but not in BTTF II and III.
I completely agree with you and tried to visualize what happened in the movies again.
First BTTF I.
If I would visualize the time-travel it would look something like this:
Timeline A (black) is the original one at the beginning of the movie. Marty-A (black) travels back to 1955-A, alters the timeline - thus switching the railway track of time - and Marty-A (black) is from now on in timeline B (red). The connection to timeline A is lost (if it still exists beside or is erased, I can't argue). Fact is that when travelling back to 1985-B he sees Marty-B (red) experiencing the same as he did in 1985-A. Then Marty-B leaves this timeline. Why a Marty-B?
Well in my point of view this has to be Marty-B because it is timeline B since 1955-B thus there is a 1968-B where Marty-B is born. And in 1985-B the Marty-B is 17 years old.
Where-to he leaves with the Delorean i can't say... If Doc in 1985-B did also put in Nov 5th 1955 to the time-circuits Marty-B should eventually also enter 1955.
Now let's go on with BTTF2:
Timeline B (red) is the one Marty and Doc are in. Obviously Doc did a few travels to the future and returns at the beginning to 1985-B where we start with Marty-A to 2015-B.
(I just visualized Marty's timetravel here. It's black since he is Marty-A).
By arresting Griff the timeline B in 2015 changes to 2015-C and breaking the connection to the future of 2015-B.
Till now everything in the BTTF universe is fine for me and the railway-track theory works quite well.
But when old Biff comes into play, it is getting really weird.
Let's have a look:
In the evening of 2015-C Biff (pink) steals the Delorean and travels back to 1955-B and altering it by giving the almanac to his younger self.
We have now timeline D which developes during the years to the famous Hell Valley of 1985-D.
So when Biff tries to return to 2015 he should acutally stay in timeline D. Remember he put in a railway switch in 1955 and thus broke the connection to the former timeline B / 2015-C.
What I never realized when thinking about BTTF and time-travel I found out when drawing all this:
By Biff altering 1955 and establishing timeline D the Marty-A from BTTF1 which is also in 1955 should actually return to 1985-D, Hell Valley.
What a complete mess!!!!
A last word to the alternate timelines. As they got disconnected and the timetraveller can not return to them, what would there happen?
Timeline A: Doc-A got shot at Twin Pines Mall and Marty-A leaves for 1955. But of course he doesn't return into Timeline A. So we have an abandoned Twin Pines Mall with a dead Doc and crashed Lybians. But Marty is lost and the Delorean too.
Creepy.
Timeline B: In 2015-B we have a visiting Doc-B from 1985-B, Marty is a looser, Mary Jr. arrested and Marleen too.
Timeline C: In 2015-C we have a stranded Doc-B and Marty-A from 1985-B. Biff took the Delorean away and left. Who knows what Doc and Marty can do?
Timeline
In 2015-D we should have old Biff returning from 1955.
I'm assuming the 1983 in your username is your birth year, so I can't very well make the joke and say "Now if you were this dedicated to your schoolwork..."
But seriously, I think you should get a medal for that explanation, because it's MUCH easier to follow talk about alternate timelines with visuals. But on that same note, there's still one part of that theory that still bothers me. In saying that each switch of the track creates an alternate timeline with alternate versions of Marty, Doc, etc, please help me to understand why the following takes place:
So assuming that as soon as Marty pushes George out of the way of Lorraine's dad's car, thus creating 1985-B, the track switches, why would it cause Marty to start fading from existence? By your theory, he would be causing 1985-B Marty to have never been born, not himself. My theory is that the events are as you described them, except that the timelines change around Marty and Doc, unless they make changes to their own personal timelines. Marty does this in BTTF Part I, and therefore begins to fade from existence. Doc's personal timeline is altered in Episode 2 and that's why he fades out of existence and instantaneously becomes FCB. And that's why old Biff fades from existence in Part III deleted scene. It's entirely possible that, in becoming the tyrant he did, that he was assassinated or some other course of events led to his death years before, and he wouldn't reach the same age he was in 2015-C.
I understand that there's still the matter of Marty supposedly being at "Math Camp," or "Switzerland," but I can't help but think that as the timelines change, Marty takes the place of his alternate selves, as Doc mentions in Part II that Jennifer would be fine in 1985-C, as the timeline would change around her as it returns to 1985-B. So that is exactly one such case where they return to an earlier version of 1985:
But they do enter it again. Is there any logic to my theory here, or am i just missing the train altogether?
Great Scott! :eek: Respect!
There is still the question of why Marty would take the place of his alternate selves when the real Doc was replaced by Citizen Brown.
Think of it this way. Marty's the common unchanging factor because HE HIMSELF has the same personality in all the timelines. Therefore, taking a page from LOST here, he's the constant in each timeline! THAT's why he's unaffected by any of these changes!
^My thoughts exactly.
*faints*
Perfect, man! You got it! Everything you wrote is exactly what I was trying to write in the first post - except you explained it way, way better, and the visualizations helped too!
Your train-track theory is great. I picture the same thing like a tree, where each new time-line is a new branch stemming from the trunk, and any changes to those time-lines just creates more branches and twigs.
And of course, it would be impossible to ever return to the same timeline - UNLESS you changed nothing, and then returned home. If you did something, the best you hope for is to create a new time-line that's at least similar to the one you left.
Now THAT'S heavy. And it actually creates a paradox out of fifth-dimensional thinking because by sending Marty-A to 1985-D, Biff can't receive the Almanac from himself in 2015-C.
I think the train just derailed. Unless Einstein's theory of relativity is wrong, you can't create energy or matter, and therefore, you can't split Marty-A into two people who go to 1985-B and 1985-D. There could be infinite amounts of him throughout all possible time-lines sure, but you can't multiply infinity, unless that's the key to thinking sixth-dimensionally. OUCH.
Actually, this does raise a plausible scientific query: if time can be diverted, but not erased, and Time-traveler B goes back in time to interfere with Time-traveler A's original interference, what becomes of Time-Traveler A?
This is the one thing in the movies that doesn't apply to the train-track theory. Because matter and energy can be neither destroyed or created - only redistributed - nobody would ever fade away just because of a change in the past. Their existence would only move to a different time-line. So things like Marty fading away, Doc merging with FCB, and anything involving "the time-stream catching up" is merely a magical plot device to keep the suspense going.
According to the train-track theory, when Doc and Marty appear in Citizen Ville, Doc wouldn't fade away, and the Delorean would still work. There'd still be two Docs running around.
ShadowKnight! *drops to knees and tries to wake up* Oh man...
Excuse my shameless quote, I'll see myself out now.
So how is that any different from say...the idea of time travel in general
But Doc wasn't changed in Hell Valley, despite there being a newspaper article saying he was committed...
Just because Biff had Doc committed in that timeline, doesn't mean that Doc himself changed at all. Biff always thought Doc was nuts. He just finally had the power to do something about it.
Oh that. Same reason as Marty. That simple.
That Doc is also "the constant" but that didn't apply in the Citizen Brown timeline?
Well, FINALLY you admit!
Also, Datadog (and tope1983), you might want to check this theory out:
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23050&page=3
See the posts #52 and #59.
In addition to those, I should say that the laws of quantum physics are on the side of this theory (lampshaded by Flah and me), because, if you know anything about the state of superposition, it will be clear to you that Marty has to travel that entire time loop to notice the result which had been there all along. That's why the newspaper depicting Doc as Carl Sagan is different before and after the time travel, because Marty cannot see or know of the result that already IS, before he actually CHOOSES it and MAKES it anyway by his own actions! Seeing that Doc was shot in 1931 is just because Marty can't possibly know, and it's a probable result, but not necessarily the actual one, because it hasn't been decided yet! Actually, it functions the same way as the future!!! In quantum physics, when there is a multiple choice, not knowing the result leaves it undecided, but the choice can still have been made and the result can exist regardlessly! In practice, it's taken as if all choices were made there at the same time, because it doesn't matter which one exactly it was! This means seeing the result equals decision, and that sets the basis for the whole theory.
So, if Doc (resolved to be in 1986 at the end of the journey after all) had met Marty in 1986 before Marty started his time travel in the first episode, Marty would know the result of the journey beforehand, and since thanks to that knowledge he can choose to never travel through time from that point in the first place, Doc would start to fade out. Either that, or if Doc can even appear in front of Marty at that moment, it could mean that the time loop is revolving around him instead, further meaning that some alternate Marty (possibility Marty!?) must've somehow brought him to this timeline, and if that doesn't make sense and the original Marty should decide Doc's fate after all, then HE should start disappearing instead, which is even less sensible, since that somehow kinda makes him just another possibility from Doc's perspective (anyone's perspective but his own fits the criteria), and therefore less original than Doc! But I don't think that's the case. My final guess on the matter is probably the most accurate one, but slightly mind-blowing: that Marty and Doc are both equally possible as time travelers, and meeting at the aforementioned point in 1986 would make them unstable possibilities that absolutely depend on each other (and each other only!) to travel a fully closed time loop where everything is now destined to happen as it did, else they BOTH disappear! So, they're better off never to meet at that point and keep their options resolve the same way without any unneeded existential commitment to each other.
The point and the conclusion? The theory says that you can't change history, and Marty's knowledge about the result of the time travel makes ALL the difference when it comes to potential disappearing and the nature of the time loop.
Sure it does. It's the exact same scenario as Marty in the first film. In the first film, Marty prevents his mother and father from falling in love the way they initially had, thus causing himself to have never been born, hence his fading from existence over the course of the movie. At the end of Get Tannen! Marty makes a similar change to Doc's own personal timeline, in that he essentially sets him on a path to follow law over science, hence creating FCB. Basically, Marty and Doc are constants in any timeline, unless something happens that specifically impacts their own personal timelines. Like at the end of the third movie, Marty doesn't partake in the drag race that would've caused him to crash and break his hand. Because of this, he alters his own future from that which we see in Part II. For all we know now, he could grow up to become a rock star, and rule Hill Valley as First Citizen McFly!
Yeah mostly because marty is the one making all the changes to the timeline except when Biff does it. To our knowledge, whenever doc time travels alone he doesnt' change marty's timeline. Also every point of the trilogy and games so far are shown from marty's TOV (time of view) so we always see whatever time period marty is currently in whether marty is on screen or not.
Doc is unique in the sense that he has spent the most time away from his natural time period. At least 10 years and probably closer to 20. That's why he disappears and marty doesn't at the end of get tannen; they dont travel through time in that timeline. Marty is only a few weeks older than he should be due to time travel so assuming he lives another few weeks, he wouldnt disappear but doc would if he dies in the next 10-20 years in the FCB timeline.
That's exactly my point. When Emmett chooses the path of law over science, Doc's personal timeline is altered and he becomes FCB-a timeline in which he doesn't visit the rejuvenation clinic and in which he passes away earlier, hence why he disappears.
And Marty becoming a complete nerd in FCB's timeline isn't?