Ripple effect works backwards in time as well?
Again, this is nitpicking, but a LOT of stuff on BTTF forums IS nitpicking after all!
Basically, this is about the Citizen Brown timeline, and more to the point, its history.
In a throwaway line in Ep 4, FCB Doc mentions having a secret lab at Clayton Ravine...at which point Marty mentions Clara and tells FCB Doc about how she's supposed to be his wife in the other timeline(s). From the naming of the ravine, the obvious implication is that since the Delorean was never invented in this timeline, Doc never travelled back to 1885 and thus the original sequence of events, with Clara falling into the ravine, was restored. And on the surface it makes perfect sense...considering the fact that there is other evidence of the 'original histories' being restored; for instance, George and Lorraine are back to their loser selves from the original Twin Pines timeline, since they were never influenced by Marty in 1955. And yet, it seems to conflict with how the ripple effect, and alternate timelines, are portrayed in the trilogy...
Now, based on my understanding of the trilogy, the implication is that at any given point of time, the future is 'not written', and that the actions of a time traveller from the future (or with knowledge of the future) can change the course of the future (i.e. his/her past). As the future changes, objects brought back from the future (photos, newspapers etc) are changed by the 'ripple effect' to reflect the new timeline...and in extreme cases, people from the future may be erased from existence if they do not exist in the 'new future' (as Marty nearly was in BTTF1). The idea is that the ripple effect changes the future and affects objects and people from the future. So, if in 1955, something is done to change 1985, then the ripple effect moves forward from 1985, altering 1985, as well as objects in 1955 which originate from 1985.
However, I think the 1955 segment of BTTF2 clearly implies that while the time traveller, while in the past, can change the future, he cannot change anything in the past from BEFORE his 'arrival point' in the past. This explains why we see Marty from BTTF1 in the background in BTTF2. Old Biff arrived on the morning of November 12th 1955, and his actions radically altered 1985, such that the Delorean was never invented and Marty never travelled back in time...yet, this did not erase the actions of Marty from the original timeline since November 5th 1955 onwards, because Marty's arrival on Nov. 5th, his interfering with his parents meeting, the manure truck crash et all are all part of the 'past' at the point when Old Biff has arrived in 1955...his actions do not affect events prior to the morning of November 12th 1955.
And yet, the Game contradicts this...how? Simply by saying that Clara died falling into the ravine in 1885, in the FCB timeline.
Look at it this way. Marty and Doc arrived in 1931. Their actions in 1931 inadvertently altered 1986, erasing Doc and Einstien in the process as well. Their actions in 1931 also alter ALL the years after 1931, including 1955 (which explains why George and Lorraine have reverted to their 'Twin Pines' incarnations). Fair enough.
But WHY would a divergence created in 1931, alter 1885, a point in time which PRECEDES the divergence? In other words, why would the ripple effect, which usually movesforward in time and changes the future, suddenly move backward in time and change the past? It doesn't make sense.
If we go by the evidence of the game, then logically, when young Emmett hooks up with Edna, 1931 Hill Valley would spontaneously start transforming! The name of the ravine would suddenly change from Eastwood Ravine to Clayton Ravine, Doc's letter with the Western Union would disappear as would the Delorean buried in the Delgado Mine, the pictures of Doc (and Marty) by the newly constructed clocktower, taken in 1885, should also disappear from the book in the library...without anyone noticing anything!
It makes sense for photographs and newspapers from 1986 to start changing, because these objects represent the future, which is not written...but why would objects from the PAST change?
Basically, this is about the Citizen Brown timeline, and more to the point, its history.
In a throwaway line in Ep 4, FCB Doc mentions having a secret lab at Clayton Ravine...at which point Marty mentions Clara and tells FCB Doc about how she's supposed to be his wife in the other timeline(s). From the naming of the ravine, the obvious implication is that since the Delorean was never invented in this timeline, Doc never travelled back to 1885 and thus the original sequence of events, with Clara falling into the ravine, was restored. And on the surface it makes perfect sense...considering the fact that there is other evidence of the 'original histories' being restored; for instance, George and Lorraine are back to their loser selves from the original Twin Pines timeline, since they were never influenced by Marty in 1955. And yet, it seems to conflict with how the ripple effect, and alternate timelines, are portrayed in the trilogy...
Now, based on my understanding of the trilogy, the implication is that at any given point of time, the future is 'not written', and that the actions of a time traveller from the future (or with knowledge of the future) can change the course of the future (i.e. his/her past). As the future changes, objects brought back from the future (photos, newspapers etc) are changed by the 'ripple effect' to reflect the new timeline...and in extreme cases, people from the future may be erased from existence if they do not exist in the 'new future' (as Marty nearly was in BTTF1). The idea is that the ripple effect changes the future and affects objects and people from the future. So, if in 1955, something is done to change 1985, then the ripple effect moves forward from 1985, altering 1985, as well as objects in 1955 which originate from 1985.
However, I think the 1955 segment of BTTF2 clearly implies that while the time traveller, while in the past, can change the future, he cannot change anything in the past from BEFORE his 'arrival point' in the past. This explains why we see Marty from BTTF1 in the background in BTTF2. Old Biff arrived on the morning of November 12th 1955, and his actions radically altered 1985, such that the Delorean was never invented and Marty never travelled back in time...yet, this did not erase the actions of Marty from the original timeline since November 5th 1955 onwards, because Marty's arrival on Nov. 5th, his interfering with his parents meeting, the manure truck crash et all are all part of the 'past' at the point when Old Biff has arrived in 1955...his actions do not affect events prior to the morning of November 12th 1955.
And yet, the Game contradicts this...how? Simply by saying that Clara died falling into the ravine in 1885, in the FCB timeline.
Look at it this way. Marty and Doc arrived in 1931. Their actions in 1931 inadvertently altered 1986, erasing Doc and Einstien in the process as well. Their actions in 1931 also alter ALL the years after 1931, including 1955 (which explains why George and Lorraine have reverted to their 'Twin Pines' incarnations). Fair enough.
But WHY would a divergence created in 1931, alter 1885, a point in time which PRECEDES the divergence? In other words, why would the ripple effect, which usually movesforward in time and changes the future, suddenly move backward in time and change the past? It doesn't make sense.
If we go by the evidence of the game, then logically, when young Emmett hooks up with Edna, 1931 Hill Valley would spontaneously start transforming! The name of the ravine would suddenly change from Eastwood Ravine to Clayton Ravine, Doc's letter with the Western Union would disappear as would the Delorean buried in the Delgado Mine, the pictures of Doc (and Marty) by the newly constructed clocktower, taken in 1885, should also disappear from the book in the library...without anyone noticing anything!
It makes sense for photographs and newspapers from 1986 to start changing, because these objects represent the future, which is not written...but why would objects from the PAST change?
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But you're right the game contradicts itself in episodes 3 and 4
Some people believe the delorean crashes into the billboard due to it no longer having flying circuits (didnt go to 2015)... fine inconclusive.
The rationale for 'clayton ravine' is likely that doc doesnt invent the time machine in this timeline. So that in itself i could live with BUT there's plenty of evidence that the 1931 time travels still DID happen at this point (young emmett and edna still remember marty and Carl Sagan, they are still in FCBs photo of kid Tannens arrest).
We interact with 1931 Emmett and alter his future; saving Clara is part of his future, not his past. By changing his future he never went to the past to save Clara. Its a slight spin on the old paradox of going back in time and shooting your grandfather; if you killed him you wouldn't be born so then you couldn't of killed him so you would be born.
tl;dr: Saving Clara may be a past event in terms of chronological date; however in terms of Doc's life in chronological order it is part of Emmett's future, which allows the future altering ripple to tweak the past.
The Delorean suddenly no longer having flying circuits because of the 2015 trip being erased just doesn't make sense! If the Delorean was affected by the timeline being altered, then the entire car should disappear, because the 1985 it came from no longer existed! It makes absolutely no sense for one component of the car to fail because of the ripple effect.
Also, I believe the 1931 trips still happened because the FCB timeline was directly dependent on them. Furthermore, the point of divergence which created the FCB timeline WAS the trip to 1931...any point in time chronologically after the 1931 trips would be altered to fit the FCB timeline, including 1955, 1985 and 2015, erasing all trips made to THOSE time periods during the course of the trilogy. However, it doesn't explain why this would erase the trips to 1885, which precedes the divergence in 1931!
I agree...saving Clara is part of young Emmett's future, and that future has been erased. But likewise, in the context of BTTF2, we can argue that Marty preventing his parent's first meeting, causing Biff to crash the manure truck etc. is in the future of the young Marty in 1973 who's father was just shot dead...and that future has been erased because of Old Biff's actions in 1955. Yet, we see Twin Pines Marty in 1955 and all his actions in the week leading upto November 12th 1955 still occurred in the Hell Valley timeline, because they occurred before the divergence called by Old Biff's trip. So why wouldn't Doc and Marty have appeared in 1885 and saved Clara, even in the history of the FCB timeline (of course, Doc, Clara and the kids would be erased from existence the moment they travelled out of the 19th century).
Plus the Marty we follow doesn't have his timeline altered at all; using the Delorean he is straddling timelines. In BTTF2 there is a Marty who has been run out of town and in his absence our Marty can get around. Same as in FCB timeline there is a nerdy Marty who is out of town.
The difference here is saving Clara isn't integral to events working out the way they do, Hill Valley exists in both the Clara dying and the Clara living version of events, only the ravine name alters. Therefore with no Emmett time travelling it didn't happen. If you track events BTTF1, BTTF2 and part of 3 take place in Clara dead time line, then 3 concludes in Clara alive; then episode 1 and 2 are in the Clara alive timeline; while 3 4 and 5 are in Clara dead timeline then Clara alive is restored at end of 5
I distinctly remember posting a reply to this before but it somehow got deleted
I agree with you that Clara isn't integral to events working out the way they do. But Marty's 1955 trip isn't really integral to Old Biff giving himself the Almanac either. The 'Hell Valley' timeline is anyway founded on a paradox-since Doc was committed in 1983 he never built the Delorean, so there was no way Old Biff could have stolen it in 2015 in this timeline, regardless of Marty's 1955 happening or not. (Plus, according to Bob Gale, in this timeline, Biff was killed in 1996 by Lorraine). The Old Biff we see in 1955 is from Lone Pine 2015...he is not the future self of the alternate Biff who married Lorraine and owned the Pleasure Paradise.
We see Twin Pines Marty in 1955 because Marty's actions in 1955 prior to the morning of November 12th are all already in the past at the time of Old Biff's arrival. When Old Biff arrives in 1955, he arrives at a point when Marty's getting hit by the car instead of George, Marty causing Biff to crash into a manure truck, Lorraine asking Marty out to the dance et all are already part of history and set in stone! While Old Biff's actions can influence future events, he cannot influence past events unless he time travels further back in the past. Say, Old Biff arrived at around 9:00 AM in the morning on November 12th 1955...his actions only influence events which occur after that time, and not before! So, anything that happened before 9:00 AM on November 12th 1955, including the arrival of other time traveller's from different futures, is set in stone and isn't affected.
So shouldn't the same apply in the case of Doc and Marty's adventures in the Old West! Marty and Doc made changes on August 25th 1931 (I think that's the date) which inadvertently resulted in the FCB timeline. That means August 25th 1931 is the point of divergence that led to the FCB timeline. It makes sense for anything AFTER August 25th 1931 to be altered to fit the new timeline, but why would stuff like Doc saving Clara, Marty beating Bufford Tannen etc., which occured BEFORE August 25th 1931, be affected!
Don't get me wrong...I loved the Clayton Ravine reference, and the fact that Clara was dead in the FCB timeline did drive home the point that Marty (and us) needs to 'fix' the timeline...but it just doesn't make sense based on the vague 'rules' established in the trilogy.
Altering 1931 changes the 1980s and thus has a knock on effect to anything the 1980s Doc & Marty did, in this case in 1885. This is the absolute key to why it works; saving Clara is still a future event for Emmett; it doesn't matter that it happens at an earlier date it is still his future. It perfectly fits the rules, its a fundamental fact of time travellers: their personal timeline doesn't run in the same chronology as normal dates; as Emmett is a time traveller it does not matter that 1885 pre-dated 1931 in date chronology all that matters is saving Clara post-dates 1931 in Emmett's personal chronology, therefore the ripple erased it.
And Marty's 1955 actions are integral to the Biff timeline; yes its a paradox but it still stands: Erase Marty's actions from 1955 = Doc is dead = Doc never goes to the future = Old Biff can't go back in time. Marty in 1955 has to be sustained in order for it to be possible for Biff's actions to have happened.
Same way Marty's 1931 actions have to be sustained for FCB timeline to be possible.
The Biff disappearing factor seems best explained by something FCB timeline touches on: It appears in the bttf universe when the timeline is altered enough to create a dramatically alter you in your original time that the original is erased if you come into close proximity. Old Biff is erased, presumably his grave is in Hill Valley, and Doc is erased being near FCB Hill Valley; but in both cases Marty remains as the Marty of that timeline is absent from town. It seems this proximity erasure maintains any past of that person necessary for the timeline to be created however (so Old Biff in 1955 and Doc as Carl Sagan in 1931 + The Delorean, though as we see in bttf episode 5 it seems time will eventually catch up and remove the delorean) but the rest is erased.
In terms of conventional logic, I agree, your explanation makes PERFECT sense. And I have never denied the fact that time traveller's have a personal chronology which differs from that of actual chronology. There is no doubt that being trapped in the Old West and saving Clara is very much a part of young Emmett's future, which as we know, can be changed.
However, I am talking about how erasing the events of BTTF3 in 1885 contradicts the logic seemingly established in the movies themselves.
With regards to your example of how Marty's 1955 trip is integral to the eventual creation of the Hell Valley timeline; again, I must reiterate that while the latter is logically dependent on the former in terms of meta-time; when you consider how things actually play out along the Hell Valley timeline, you find that it cannot possibly be dependent.
I mean, consider the Hell Valley timeline in its entirely (even before Old Biff's divergence). Marty arrives from Twin Pines 1985 on November 5th 1955. He goes through the week doing whatever we see him do for most of BTTF1. Then, on the morning of November 12th 1955, Old Biff arrives from Lone Pine 2015, gives himself the Almanac, and leaves.
What happens then?
Young Biff, starting from 1958, uses the Almanac to get rich. In 1973, he kills George McFly and marries Lorraine. He sends Marty off to a boarding school in Switzerland, and in 1983, has Doc Brown committed. On October 26th 1985, there is NO temporal experiment at Lone Pine Mall, Doc is NOT shot at by Libyans and Marty does NOT go back in time. Doc is in an asylum, and in any case, the Delorean was never built, so he does NOT go into the future, and does NOT bring Marty and Jennifer to the future later to sort out their kids. Also, in 1996, Biff is shot dead by Lorraine. Hence, in 2015, not only is there NO Delorean, but there is also NO Old Biff to steal it and the Almanac and go back in time!
So, in terms of the chronology of the Hell Valley timeline, it does NOT matter whether Marty's 1955 trip happened or not...it was anyway impossible for Old Biff to have gone back in time.
You are right of course about the existence of time traveller's and their actions in the past being preserved in the new timeline, even if their personal timelines have been erased. This is how Old Biff appears in 1955. This is ALSO how Marty from the first film appeared in 1955 (as he was already present in 1955 BEFORE the divergence). It is ALSO how Doc and Marty's actions in 1931 have been preserved even though the timeline they came from has been erased. My question is, WHY haven't Marty and Doc's actions in 1885 been preserved? After all, they occurred BEFORE the divergence caused in 1931...if Marty's 1955 trip, which had no connection (as per BTTF's logic) to Old Biff's trip, was preserved in the Hell Valley timeline, why can't his and Doc's 1885 trip (which has no connection to the 1931 trips) ALSO have been preserved in the FCB timeline.
The best explanation I can come up with is that screwing around with Emmett Brown's personal timeline totally messes up the space-time continuum because he's the inventor of time travel!
BTW, your idea about the originals being erased by being in close proximity with the doppelganger's is intriguing, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It would have made sense if you said the mere EXISTENCE of an alternate self can erase the original as soon as he/she enters the time period (and again, we know that's not true because Marty 'survived' in various alternate timelines without being erased). Why would physical proximity determine whether someone is erased or not? If that were the case, then one or more of the three adult Marty's at the end should have been erased (since its obvious they were all alternate selves).
And the three Marty's can survive if you consider this effect ONLY applies in you're original time, we clearly see in 1955, 1931 and 2015 people can exist from different points in their time stream side-by side. As all 3 Marty's are from the future and imply they have been jumping around a lot and thus are not in their original time. This also holds true if you consider Old Biff vanished in 2015 (in the deleted scene) and Doc disappeared in FCB on arriving back in the 1980s.
It's certainly not a perfect rule, but it works to explain how/why people variously fade out or not when jumping back to their original time; all those who fade out their counterpart was in close proximity all those who don't their counterpart was not in the nearby area. It could be the proximity simply accelerates the process and in all 3 examples had Marty stayed he would of eventually been erased, this would certainly seem logical based on the Delorean: It survives happily in other timelines, but when Edna's Delorean and Doc's Delorean are close together Edna's gets erased.
Hmm...I still don't buy the proximity theory, but you MIGHT just be onto something there. At the very least, I'll complement you on a very original theory
But as far as the Delorean goes, I felt it was something to do with Edna's Delorean being forcibly pulled through time that rendered it unstable and caused it to disintegrate. Remember, that Delorean was a temporal duplicate of the original and thus unstable to begin with.
If we take your theory at face value, then Edna's Delorean would have faded as soon as Doc's Delorean appeared in 1876 Hill Valley.
they don't really have to worry about the timeline catching up during the chase. They are already at the furthest point back of time travel (1876) so they basically have all time time in the world to stop edna providing she doesn't reach 88 miles per hour.
I initially thought Docs delorean could have been a future version of ednas but it would have been erased in the burnt down hill valley since we see what becomes of ednas delorean by 1931
Yeah, you have a point there. Still, I'm not really sure it was the 'timeline catching up to the Delorean' that erased it. If that were the case, then the wreck of the Delorean should have been erased in the Burnt Hill Valley timeline WELL before Doc and Marty met the old and crazed Edna (the ripple effect WOULD have caught up somewhere in the course of 55 years!) Of course, truth be told, pretty much EVERYONE (Marty, Doc, BOTH Deloreans, and Edna herself) should logically have been erased in that timeline...the continuum was REALLY screwed up with that timeline.
I still think Edna's Delorean faded because it was inherently unstable to begin with, being a temporal duplicate whose 'personal' timeline had been erased several times over...and being forcibly pulled through time just accelerated the process of its disintegration.
And Doc's Delorean is not the future 'self' of Edna's Delorean...it is best described as an alternate PAST self...in that Doc's Delorean has not been on ANY of the 1931 trips (at least, not the ones we know off from the first few episodes of the Game)...or, it could simply be a completely DIFFERENT Delorean (not a temporal duplicate of the original, but an entirely new car built by Doc when he moved his family back to the 80's).
Things like parts of the DeLorean going wrong, or certain 19th century effects of time travel disappearing while Marty retains his memories stretch things a bit more than what we saw in the movies, perhaps, but they're an expansion rather than something all-new.
Yeah, you have a point there.
But still, there are at least semi-plausible explanations for those scenarios. Marty's family takes a week to fade from the picture because the probability of George and Lorraine getting together was steadily declining over the course of the week...whereas the probability of the Marty and his siblings being born snaps back to 100% the moment they DO get together, and hence the picture is restored to normal in a second.
But in this case, the 1885 travels being erased directly contradicts the evidence of BTTF2, where Marty's trip to 1955 from BTTF1 still 'happened' before Marty had arrived prior to the divergence caused by Biff's trip.
However, your last sentence of the game 'stretching' things more than the movies did might provide a clue to this conundrum...we can simply assume that this time, the space-time continuum was SO f&cked up (with Doc not even coming up with the IDEA of time travel), that history was altered in inexplicable ways, causing the ripple effect to even move BACKWARDS from the point of divergence.
Then, when old Biff began the creation of the Hell Valley Timeline by giving the almanac to Young Biff, shouldn't Twin Pines Marty have returned to the Biffhoriffic 1985A timeline, instead of the Lone Pines Version? That should surely cause a paradox!
Not quite actually; the reason it takes a week is because the critical junction point for George and Lorraine falling in love is the dance (which is a week away). Specifically the kiss on the dance floor; notice the picture starts fading at a faster rate the closer they get to it. One George kisses Lorraine that restores the timeline.
It's pretty much the same scenario as the tombstomb in part III: In the original timeline doc is shot on the 4th, dies on the 7th. Once Marty prevents Buford from shooting doc on the 4th, his name is erased from the tombstomb but the tombstomb and date itself are still there (this is the next tombstomb to be used with the 7th being the most likely date for the death given the duel). Once marty starts to attempt to back out, the most likely scenario is 'clint eastwood.' Once the tombstomb is destroyed it fades from the picture.
That's quiet an interesting idea. In fact, I once read a great fanfic about it.
But personally...I really don't think so. I think TP Marty ALWAYS travels to the LP timeline (or any of its variations) after departing from 1985-A...which means that from the POV of the Hell Valley timeline, TP Marty simply drops out of existence the moment the lightining bolt hits the Clock Tower at 10:04 PM.
You've said pretty much the same thing I have in a different way.
*stuffs 9mm in mouth and blows out his brains all over the back wall*
Bob Gale admitted as much in the official FAQ-the only reason why Marty and Jennifer's future selves are present when they skip 30 years is because they needed to exist to drive the whole plot line of Marty's future life being messed up.
They totally ignored numerous paradoxes (like the time machine NOT BEING INVENTED, for starters) just to show us the whole horrifying reality of 1985-A.
And it works! From the POV of plot and character development, and emotional appeal, it works wonders! It's why this series has become as great and as loved as it is!
But...when you treat it as a time travel movie and sit down and actually try to make sense of it...it starts to fall apart after a while...unless you can do some REALLY screwy logical arithmetic in your head and come up with some kind of halfway workable theory.
And the Game actually DOES seem to support some of the popular fan theories about how time travel in BTTF works...but alternatively, it just confuses things further at times by seemingly departing from the logic implied by the films.
There are many things that doesnt seem logical.
Lets say you went to the future right now this very minute, you could not possible meet yourself?. Because the moment you leave this timezone or timeline, you vanish for history, So there is no future you to meet.
Something ive always been thinking about is this, If you take the delorean and send it 1 min into the future, you catch up with it.
My best guess is the reason there isnt alot of paradoxes is because you dont really change what happen in the current reality as such, when they make a change in the past, the create a new branch so to speak. history took another course, the original path is still there., thats how ive always thought it was. Because like when doc is illustrating on that board in the garage, they have created another branch of history the Hell hill valley.
We may never know in real life, but assuming we can go back in the future and such, it would seem wierd if changes would happen instantly, time is time after all. Its kinda hard to get my head around, im not that smart lol. But for me atleast it would seem logical that it would take some amount of time before the changes surfaces, depending on how far back they are changed, but then again it could just change instantly.
If there is one thing ive learned from the Movies BTTF, i honestly dont think we should ever hope or wish to invent time machine, yeah i know we probably all have someone who has died we wish we could change. But man oh man seriously the amount of mess and misuse that could happen.
I think that time machine is one of those things that the world would be better without, like say the Atomic bomb.
If time travel really is possible, from what we guess, it takes like nothing to change the entire course of history, its like one person dying could result in all crazy stuff.
Like say going back in time to stop hitler, that might seem fine on paper. But again maybe it would be good, maybe all the countries would still be at war with each other today, maybe someone even worse would have come along.
It would be kinda cool and spooky to to 1000 years into the future, and hopefully see that humans have finally stopped ruining the planet, or maybe we arent even there anymore, because of World War 3.
Thinking to much about time travel makes my head hurt lol
If the Hell Valley timeline 'branched of' from the Lone Pine timeline, there would have been two parallel 2015's...with Marty and Doc stranded in Lone Pine 2015 and Old Biff returning to Hell Valley 2015. There is NO WAY Marty and Old Biff could have been in the same 2015 under the parallel timelines theory. Instead, what Bob Gale himself said happened is that when Old Biff went back, LP 2015 transformed into Hell Valley 2015 around Marty, Doc and Jennifer. Since the three were time traveler's who did not belong to 2015, the ripple effect did not change them (the 2015 Marty however would have been changed into his Hell Valley counterpart).
You're right about everyone having a personal timeline...which may involve trips to multiple timeline. That's the case with Marty. Marty grows up in the 'Twin Pines' timeline with loser parents, goes back to 1955 creating the 'Lone Pine' timeline, returns to 1985, travels to 2015, then returns to 'Hell Valley' 1985, goes back in time AGAIN to 1955 creating a revised Lone Pine timeline, then is shifted into Shonash 1955 when Doc gets struck by lightning, and creates the final 'Eastwood' timeline by going back to 1885 and saving Doc, before returning to 1985.
Taking the Game into account-Marty lives for six months in the Eastwood timeline (though unknown to him, it has already changed into a timeline where Doc was killed in 1931). He then goes back to June 1931 creating a new timeline where Doc is saved, goes back again a few hours creating ANOTHER timeline to save his grandfather, returns to 1986 to see Tannen Mob rule the town, goes back to August 1931 creating the Citizen Brown timeline, returns to 1986, then goes back to October 1931, creating YET another timeline, gets shifted into an alternate 1931 in which Hill Valley doesn't exist, and finally goes back to 1876 creating the final timeline, with brief stopover in 1931 and finally returning to 1986.
Thus Marty, between the movies and the Games, has spent at least some time in around 18-20 different timelines...and he remembers his experiences in all of them. Many of those timelines no longer exist in ANY form, but Marty remembers them because he visited them WHEN they existed (in meta-time). In that sense, a semblance of the parallel timelines theory IS created wherein Marty traverses multiple realities, but instead of travelling to different timelines per se, he simply witnesses the changing of one timeline into another, being aware of the fact either because he is the cause of the change, or because he is outside 1985/6 and therefore unaffected by the ripple effect.
but there are a lot of things that get changed which changes the fact that marty went back to 1955 in the first place, bttf 2 is one example, also the tannen crime family timeline had no marty going back cause he was chased out of hill valley years before but george still hits biff in 1955, but it shouldn't have happened as they changed marty's future as well as changing doc's, even tho it was an alternate marty, so why does 1885 change in FCB timeline but not 1955 in tannen crime family timeline? makes no sense to me, 1885 should stay the same just like 1955 does
marty from part I is still in 1955 during the biffhoric timeline of part II
He's referring to the Tannen Mob ruled alternate timeline in Episode 2 of the game. This timeline diverged from 1931, yet Marty apparently still showed up in 1955 because George still punched out Biff.
Interesting debate because this also seems to be the first timeline where Biff figures out it was in fact Marty whom caused him to crash into a manure truck BEFORE 2015 (this is referenced). So it's possible that time travel still existed in this timeline although it's indicated he crashes into a manure truck (singular) so it's possible the second trip to 1955 was erased (perhaps 2015's travels were erased). You could argue this is figured out between 1985 and 1986.
Yeah, you may have a point there. Maybe Doc DID succeed in developing the time machine in this timeline, and the Marty of this timeline DID go back to 1955, and some variation of the events of BTTF1 occurred.
In fact...and this is an interesting thought...it might explain the absence of this timeline's Marty. Jennifer didn't exist in this timeline...therefore its likely that Marty wouldn't have kept the Clock Tower flyer with him. The Clock Tower flyer is the way 'our' Marty learned about the lightning bolt and returned to 1985. So could it be possible that this alternate Marty was stranded in 1955...so, somewhere in Episode 2, in the alternate 1986, we would have a 48 year old 'Calvin Klien' hanging around. Alternatively, maybe Marty DID make it back to 1985, but because he and the Doc of this timeline were presumably on the run from the Tannens, maybe they escaped to some other time...which explains why there's no sign of either of them in 1986!
or another theory (not sure if the timeline would work like this)
biff did in fact crash into the same manure truck twice (hence why they refer to it as a singular event), the second time he sees the flying delorean with marty hanging onto it. 1985 rolls around and he sees the same delorean flying again and disappear into thin air. Now this theory could be flawed in the sense that the one scene with Biff in part III he doesn't let on that he knows anything or discuss what he saw the day before.
But it's not that big of a leap for Biff to have figured out something was askew (especially if he does remember Calvin Klein visually, for instance if any photos remained from the dance). Calvin Klein shows up, befriends loner George McFly, seemingly sets up George with a girl who likes him (Lorraine). A week later, an old man shows up with a book showing the future, Calvin Klein goes after him on a flying board and steals the book (twice actually) and climbs on a flying vehicle before never being seen again. 30 years later when Marty looks exactly like Calvin Klein, he takes off in a flying delorean. Who knows, maybe the picture of Marty and Doc at the clock tower in 1885 still exists 100 years later (we know it does in 1955) and that could have been the final piece. He definitely has enough pieces to solve the puzzle, it just depends if he's the capacity. Biff also does have information about Doc Brown that we haven't seen, even though they are never in the same frame during the trilog or interact, Biff obviously knows who doc brown is by 2015 and thus may by 1985 have also figured out it was doc who built the time machine.
Also doc does shout "hold on MARTY" when saving him from biff in 1955.
alternate marty is doing a mathemagics competition in FCB timeline, thats why he's absent
i was referring to both. 1955 stayed the same no matter what happens in the past or future, so 1885 should not change either
How do you figure? 1931 clearly changed based on what happened in 1876 so why do you feel the same wouldn't happen with 1955? It's obvious the 1955 time travel did not happen in the FCB timeline or else FCB would have remembered Marty.
it's not confirmed that the tannen crime timeline erased the time travels. A lot could have happened between october 1985 and may 1986
I do believe this is what happened at the end of the trilogy...in the final timeline, when Biff saw the Delorean disappearing in the air, he would remember the events of 1955 and all the strange suspicions he's always had about Marty and his curious resemblance to a certain 'Calvin Klien'. However he likely keeps his knowledge to himself, for fear of being considered insane, and also presumably, for fear of incurring Marty and/or Doc's wrath.
True. The Tannen timeline is in fact the alternate timeline we know the least about. All we know is that Jennifer doesn't exist because her grandfather Danny Parker didn't marry his girlfriend, that Kid Tannen was never arrested and went on to have three sons and spread a reign of terror throughout Hill Valley for over a half-century, and that the Marty of this timeline has been on the run for two years.
There is certainly the implication that the 1955 trip DID happen in some form, since George and Lorraine appear to be the Lone Pine versions, and the manure truck crash and George punching out Biff are clearly mentioned. But to what extent could the events of 1955 have unfolded as depicted in the movie, given how the years 1931 to 1955 would have been very different for Hill Valley than in the original timeline...
Also consider that Biffs existance should have been altered, this would go towards the 'space time continuum preseravation theory' in the normal timelines with Kid going to prison, Biff is conceived during an escape, it must have happened a different way but at the same time in the Tannen crime timeline.
The thing that makes sense to me, is the Ripple Effect. To know what rate it travels at is the key to it all. And it travels into the past along With the time travelers. It's to reconcile changes in history. It could travel slowly rather than instantaneously. They can get ahead of it by leaving a time before it catches up to that particular date, but it Will eventually catch up to them. And when it Does catch up, if they haven't resolved something yet, they fade out of existence. Then the paradox is the feared result, but actually Helps. Cause if Marty didn't exist as a result of meeting his parents, eventually he wouldn't be able to travel back either. And things would return to normal until it loops back around to him going back. Any change that negates itself will continue in a loop until a decision on one of the go-arounds breaks the cycle and resolves the contradiction. This is the only way Back to the Future can make sense at all. I estimate that a regular ripple travels forward in time at a rate of 2 years a minute. That's fast enough to change 1985 but not 2015 in the time it took Biff to return after stealing the Delorean. And for the other party to go back to 1985 from there and not see changes right away. And for changes that appear instantaneous, I think of it in this way. History would keep flip flopping between the changes they made, until it was resolved to a non-contradictory end. But I guess the way they did it, they either didn't care or thought that literature, published a certain amount of time prior to them looking at it, would be altered before the people reading it would.