I guess since TTG confirmed that Larry was alive (I didn't see the confirmation, but I guess others did) he wasn't quite dead yet. Kenny jumped the gun, it would've been the right call if you knew you couldn't revive him, but even if you have a heart attack you don't just die. If that were the case, no one would ever need to get the paddles because you just declare him dead on the spot.
I don't think I'm going hold it over Kenny, but he does need to relax. The tension he is causing is bad for the group.
I don't think they confirmed that he was alive. Just that there was movement before Kenny kills him.
Like someone else said, the movement could have been Larry coming back as a walker.
I don't think they confirmed that he was alive. Just that there was movement before Kenny kills him.
Like someone else said, the movement could have been Larry coming back as a walker.
Well, ok. But when the person in the truck bed changes, the physical change is very obvious. Larry looked like he wasn't a zombie. I don't think there is any evidence that could change my mind that Larry wasn't a zombie at the time of his skull crushing. I welcome anyone's input, but I just don't see how he was a zombie.
Well, ok. But when the person in the truck bed changes, the physical change is very obvious. Larry looked like he wasn't a zombie. I don't think there is any evidence that could change my mind that Larry wasn't a zombie at the time of his skull crushing. I welcome anyone's input, but I just don't see how he was a zombie.
I gave my opinion on this above.
The walker in the truck bed died from bleeding out, which in my opinion is the reason for the change in skin color.
I think it would take Larry longer to show this affect because he died of a more natural cause that didn't involve his body losing a HUGE amount of blood like losing a leg or getting shot.
But how long was he laying there? He also didn't die of natural causes. Larry was more immediate.
Just because you are clinically dead doesn't mean you can't be revived though. Larry couldn't have been clincally dead for more than a minute, well within a timeframe of recovery.
Just because you are clinically dead doesn't mean you can't be revived though. Larry couldn't have been clincally dead for more than a minute, well within a timeframe of recovery.
True.. But he could have also been dead long enough to turn. I think it's up to "you" as an individual to decide how you want to see it.
I see it as.. He was dead and was coming back as a walker.
You see it as.. He was alive and trying to gasp for air.
And maybe neither of us is wrong because TT left it up in the air for the audience to come to their own conclusions.
True.. But he could have also been dead long enough to turn. I think it's up to "you" as an individual to decide how you want to see it.
I see it as.. He was dead and was coming back as a walker.
You see it as.. He was alive and trying to gasp for air.
And maybe neither of us is wrong because TT left it up in the air for the audience to come to their own conclusions.
Fair enough.
But now I'm curious how long it takes to turn. In the TV show I know they showed what was going on as far as brain activity goes when the group was at the CDC. For that it seemed like you turned after brain death. I don't know what it is like in the comic though.
According to CDC's Edwin Jenner in the TV series, a corpse can reanimate between three minutes and eight hours after death. It was also once hinted by executive producer Glen Mazzara that the time it takes for a corpse to reanimate depends on how full of life the person was before they died.
Larry was pretty full of life before he had his heart attack lol.
I don't think they confirmed that he was alive. Just that there was movement before Kenny kills him.
Like someone else said, the movement could have been Larry coming back as a walker.
This. I have taken four CPR and first Aid classes (and am about to take my fifth), and there are two things we need to know when trying to save someone in distress (it may be more complicated if you are an actual paramedic, but this is what I have been taught):
1. Taking a momentary gasp does not necessarily mean that resuscitation was successful. The CPR process ends when the patient has a normal breathing pattern reestablished. So in Larry's situation, we would have stopped CPR, monitored him for a very short period, and resumed if he needed it.
2. In heart attack situations, the first 24 hours after the heart attack are crucial in keeping the patient alive. They are at the highest risk for a second heart attack (and that one can be fatal), and they need to rest and be monitored by a medical professional. Well, the only professional we have is being held captive by the crazy people we need to escape from. There's no guarantee that, even if you save his life now, that Larry won't just die in the day or so.
Larry was pretty full of life before he had his heart attack lol.
I think we have to consider what we know from the game, though.
I'm not sure when the teacher died in my game, but it certainly less than a minute from the time Katjaa called me over to the time that the Walker grabbed her. Lily was performing CPR on Larry, but for all we knew he was already dead, and the countdown had begun. So how long should we delay before we pass the point of no return?
Well, ok. But when the person in the truck bed changes, the physical change is very obvious. Larry looked like he wasn't a zombie. I don't think there is any evidence that could change my mind that Larry wasn't a zombie at the time of his skull crushing. I welcome anyone's input, but I just don't see how he was a zombie.
The guy in the truck was left alone for a while, so we don't know at what point the appearance changes since he was already up and moving by the time we find out he has changed, only that it happens quick and that when they are fully mobile they look like that. I reckon the zombies breath or can breath as they make growling noises after all, and so Larry breathing could have been the first stage of zombification, perhaps followed by the change of appearance after his internals have undergone a change. Does either the comics or TV series ever show someone converting from living to death to undeath in full and is it consistent or whatever the hell they feel like at the time? Either way, it was deliberately left ambiguous so we're not really meant to know.
It matters. It was either murder or self-defence. Kenny was a... doodie head for doing what he did. All these people talking about a defibrillator restarting a heart have watched too much TV. I'm 90% sure that in real life, it's used for irregular heart beats, not non-existant ones.
On a side note, if you swear in front of Clem in Ep 1, does she then swear in Ep 2?
If he had a severe enough heart attack that he was no longer breathing, we can assume he has no pulse. Otherwise, the chest compressions from CPR would have been useless.
If the only thing that was wrong with him was that his heart beat was arrhythmic, then he would have eventually died anyway, because we didn't have a defribillator.
Really??? So if one has no breathing, they therefore have no pulse??? I hope no one has a heart attack by you because you'll end up doing CPR on a person with a beating heart!
Better re-take that CPR course cause you're supposed to check the ABC's: Airway, Breathing, Circulation. You most certainly can have a pulse but not have breathing.
Really??? So if one has no breathing, they therefore have no pulse??? I hope no one has a heart attack by you because you'll end up doing CPR on a person with a beating heart!
Better re-take that CPR course cause you're supposed to check the ABC's: Airway, Breathing, Circulation. You most certainly can have a pulse but not have breathing.
Maybe I should have phrased it better, but the point was that the Chest compressions were useless if the man HAS a pulse. No one gives Larry mouth to mouth, which would have been the correct situation had Larry had a pulse but was not breathing. I'm assuming that Lily started chest compressions because he had no pulse.
Besides, I believe I qualifying word in my statement was that if someone had a HEART ATTACK that severe... There are other situations in which a person may need CPR that doesn't necessarily start with CARDIAC ARREST. It's not unreasonable to assume that Larry has no pulse.
For those saying that CPR could not have brought him back, particularly because he wasn't breathing for a few seconds... that is false.
Only several months ago a person close to me came under a cardiac arrest. She was unconscious, wasn't breathing and her eyes were glazed over. The only thing I could do were chest compressions and it was fortunate that I did because it brought her back and she resumed breathing and consciousness. I'm no doctor, but speaking from first hand experience I can only recommend that you do the same if you see someone under an attack like that.
My point is, Lee doing heart compressions could may as well have brought him back- Larry's death was hardly definite enough for Kenny to kill him.
I also advise you all that if you see someone fall unconscious and stop breathing- please don't just assume they're already dead. Some of the responses I'm seeing here are really disturbing...
For those saying that CPR could not have brought him back, particularly because he wasn't breathing for a few seconds... that is false.
Only several months ago a person close to me came under a cardiac arrest. She was unconscious, wasn't breathing and her eyes were glazed over. The only thing I could do were chest compressions and it was fortunate that I did because it brought her back and she resumed breathing and consciousness. I'm no doctor, but speaking from first hand experience I can only recommend that you do the same if you see someone under an attack like that.
My point is, Lee doing heart compressions could may as well have brought him back- Larry's death was hardly definite enough for Kenny to kill him.
I also advise you all that if you see someone fall unconscious and stop breathing- please don't just assume they're already dead. Some of the responses I'm seeing here are really disturbing...
It's a videogame set in a Zombie Apocalypse. I don't think anyone here IRL would just abandon people who are in need. I certainly don't fault Lily's character for trying to save her own father - in fact, I would have thought much. much less about her as a character if she hadn't fought tooth and nail to save his life.
But, pragamatically (fully immersing ourselves in the setting)? Lily performs CPR for at least a full minute, and we are not even truly sure if Larry actually croaked or not. Every second we waste trying to save him gets us one second closer to having him turn on us (and, judging by how quickly the Band teacher turned, seconds are a precious commodity to waste).
For those saying that CPR could not have brought him back, particularly because he wasn't breathing for a few seconds... that is false.
Only several months ago a person close to me came under a cardiac arrest. She was unconscious, wasn't breathing and her eyes were glazed over. The only thing I could do were chest compressions and it was fortunate that I did because it brought her back and she resumed breathing and consciousness. I'm no doctor, but speaking from first hand experience I can only recommend that you do the same if you see someone under an attack like that.
My point is, Lee doing heart compressions could may as well have brought him back- Larry's death was hardly definite enough for Kenny to kill him.
I also advise you all that if you see someone fall unconscious and stop breathing- please don't just assume they're already dead. Some of the responses I'm seeing here are really disturbing...
First off, implying that people are disturbed for discussing an action in a computer game is a bit rude, it's a game no one is justifying it for real life. I for one am not about to drop a salt lick on anyone's head any time soon.
As to CPR bringing back your friend, cardiac arrest does not usually means that their heart stops, your friend probably still had a pulse whereas Larry was reported as having none and cardiac arrest can lead to almost immediate death. I'm not saying that he was definitely dead or irretrievable, but considering the situation Kenny did have cause to be concerned.
I sided with Kenny and I am a paramedic. So this should be fun to explain why I allowed Kenny to off him, lol.
CPR is the best tool we, as health care providers, can provide someone who is clinically dead within reason that they haven't been dead for too long. Clinically dead means that your heart has stopped beating or is not providing an adequate pulse.
According to the American Heart Association (AHA) since 2010 the method for CPR is CAB (compression, airway, and breathing) instead of the old 2005 method ABC. There is more focus on the circulation or compressions since they have found that delays in compression are detrimental to the patients’ outcome. Delaying the start of compression or pausing in-between compression are considered delays in CPR. On a side note, some areas of emergency medicine go as far to say that compressions are the only thing needed to revive someone. Check Arizona’s method of dealing with cardiac situations which can be very insightful.
Now for Larry’s cardiac problem. There really isn't a need to check for Larry’s pulse. He just dropped in front of you and we can all safely assuming he just had a heart attack. This is because his mental status went from conscious to unconscious and not breathing, with him holding onto his chest as he went down. He went from low risk of death to DEAD in about 2 seconds. To lose consciousness that fast would have meant that his blood pressure dropped which caused his brain to stop functioning properly due to the lack of oxygen via blood. The blood pressure dropped because his heart has stopped pumping efficiently. This could be due to the heart quivering and in a state of either ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation. Both states are shockable via defib or in an old crude method called a cardiac thump (giving a quick hammer-like thump to his chest). His heart could be in a worst state where there is no electrical activity, called asystole which is not shockable. If you had an EKG attached to him, you could see this happening to him in real time. Unfortunately, we are in zombie mix up and this isn't possible lol.
So after saying all of that. Lily did have the right idea based on the old method and started CPR, albeit pretty slow. Now CPR is great, but there are some BIG assumptions here. We already know Larry has a non-specific heart condition that causes angina (chest pain) which is relieved by nitro. We don't why this occurs exactly. Are his arteries clogged or harden or is his heart failing due to other reasons?
Why he just dropped dead I do know. His heart isn't, in some form, receiving the blood that carries the oxygen it needs.
Now a lot of you are correct in stating that CPR will bring a dead person back to life for this particular case. However, the chances of someone being revived with CPR are pretty small and only increase with good compressions and when the CPR was started sooner to when the heart stop beating. There is a caveat though. If the block is bad enough to completely occlude the artery that provides the blood to the heart, you will have no way to oxygenate the heart and it will die anyway regardless of CPR. Thus, he could ultimately die anyway. If you were able to resume a stable rhythm, he would need to be quickly brought to a hospital that can perform a cardiac catheterization. They don’t perform that procedure with the person in a non-sustainable rhythm unless he dies on the table and not to mention there aren’t any nearby doctors to perform it. Unless you consider the zombie ones, they are excellent surgeon apparently >.<
To tackle Larry speaking with CPR, this in fact could happen. Since it has been recorded by Arizona and others that people in cardiac arrest with CPR can act with purposeful movement. He speaks because you have raised his blood pressure high enough for him to function a little. Sadly Larry would’ve of probably stopped speaking once CPR stopped. This is because Larry probably suffered the mother of all heart attacks (bad heart occlusion) and will no doubt need surgery to open up his artery to help provided blood/oxygen to the living tissue since his heart is having trouble sustaining that rhythm without assistance. Sadly again, CPR is very exhausting so you probably won’t be able to keep him alive anyway for very long.
Now if things couldn’t get worst, people can change into zombies without getting bitten. Isn’t that just peachy? So immediately knowing that, I would NOT perform any mouth to mouth resuscitation. I rather have a quick death then my face being chewed off. Though luckily for Larry and Arizona research compression are adequate enough lol. However, we don’t know how long or how quick or if we can even prevent a person from changing. That is a high risk to me and my fellow non-zombie mates that I am not willing to take.
CPR is a great simple process, but it really isn’t so simple. Mix in the limited success, long recovery, Larry being a 300 pound gorilla of dead weight, chances of being turned to zombie without a bite, limited data on how they turn without a bite, stuck in a freezer and having a chance of a 300 pound gorilla becoming a 300 pound zombie gorilla. The choice is becoming pretty obvious.
And to add some woes for Larry’s bad luck. If he does live, did enough heart tissue survive for him to continue on with this new zombie infested life style? How are you going to sustain his critical condition if you do resuscitate him? Are you going to become his personal breathing machine if he doesn’t breath on his own even with a pulse? In all cases, how the heck are you going to move a 300 pound gorilla that would need lots medical attention? He isn’t going to be able to defend himself. He is just dead weight. Ultimate in a unsafe zombie world, he is dead meat.
So if there is something to take away from this, don’t have a heart attack during a zombie apocalypse
P.S
I did water down/skipped some things about CPR and some medical jumbo to keep things bearable to read. So if some of this is confusing, I can clarify or add if need be.
@Shaggywang (damn, I feel really dirty typing out your username), I posted the same thing in another thread, but perhaps not so clinical in description,(the difference being that I frequently need to take CPR/First Aid classes for my job, but it is NOT my sole job), but I had ultimately reached the same conclusion.
Looking back in hindsight, I don't think there could have been anyway to really save Larry, apart from the writers pulling "magic" and having him make an instant full recovery. We know that the Walkers overrun the Farm in the end. Larry was a big dude, and would have probably been completely unconscious, at least not capable of turning tail and running. We know that every single adult there is suffering from malnourishment, and probably in a weakened state. It would have been a "Great, we saved his life to have to leave him behind for the Walkers!" type scenario.
So if there is something to take away from this, don’t have a heart attack during a zombie apocalypse
I'll keep this in mind lol
Good info though. It's nice when people with real-world knowlege chime in on things. That being said though, sisterofshane brings up the point of "magic" and that the writers probably don't know what you know about the likelyhood of reviving someone with Larry's condition with CPR.
Thanks Shaggywang, it's good to get the input of someone who actually knows what he's talking about, as opposed to the theorycrafting from the rest of us. It is depressing to think that even if we had managed to bring him or anyone else suffering from a heart attack round in such a situation the prognosis would be so bleak, though I'm glad the game didn't pull a Hollywood on us with it.
@Shaggywang (damn, I feel really dirty typing out your username)
Hahahaha, I get that a lot. I promise it was given to me with no filthy intention. Though, I did realize its dirty potential when I was banned from a counter-strike server some many years back lol. My friends gave me that nick name during high school since I looked like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo with my long "shaggy" hair. Why my friends decided on the last name, Wang, baffles even me. All I know that it’s based from some ninja character they watched from a movie that had the name Mr. Wang or something of the sort. So with their bright minds put together they made up the nickname Shaggywang. =P
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I did wish they distracted clementine before they killed him. That isn’t something a little girl should see. Nor should she (or the group for that matter) have seen me kill the guy on the fence.
Heart attacks aren't nearly this debilitating every time. My mother has had them and not gone to the hospital for days. Stupid of us but we live in the country so we don't always make the best decisions. If any of you ever have a heart attack or any heart problems, be sure you go right away to the hospital!
Heart attacks themselves range in severity and cause. Go hit up wikipedia for more direct information. CPR is designed to manually cause the heart to pump but Larry could have possibly recovered. If the heart attacks are caused by blockages, pumping may move the blockage and restore his movement for a time(possibly allowing the clot to move to the brain and kill him more instantly). If the heart attacks were caused by faults in the sinoatrial node, CPR is a little more effective and could allow him to live long enough to get some of St. Johns medical supplies. Ignore the fact that the walkers eventually overrun the place and try to imagine a different scenario.
All that being said, it probably is best to kill Larry but I considered it a choice in the matter of timing. Until we know for certain someone will turn, we should preserve their lives. I try to think, what if it were Clementine? I'd want Lily by my side to help me save her. Imagine if Clementine had been the one with muck on her back in the pharmacy in Episode 1. Kenny would have backed Larry in throwing her out. Katjaa is the one who likes Clem. Kenny just wants you around as muscle. Is that really who you want to side with?
Heart attacks aren't nearly this debilitating every time. My mother has had them and not gone to the hospital for days. Stupid of us but we live in the country so we don't always make the best decisions. If any of you ever have a heart attack or any heart problems, be sure you go right away to the hospital!
Heart attacks themselves range in severity and cause. Go hit up wikipedia for more direct information. CPR is designed to manually cause the heart to pump but Larry could have possibly recovered. If the heart attacks are caused by blockages, pumping may move the blockage and restore his movement for a time(possibly allowing the clot to move to the brain and kill him more instantly). If the heart attacks were caused by faults in the sinoatrial node, CPR is a little more effective and could allow him to live long enough to get some of St. Johns medical supplies. Ignore the fact that the walkers eventually overrun the place and try to imagine a different scenario.
All that being said, it probably is best to kill Larry but I considered it a choice in the matter of timing. Until we know for certain someone will turn, we should preserve their lives. I try to think, what if it were Clementine? I'd want Lily by my side to help me save her. Imagine if Clementine had been the one with muck on her back in the pharmacy in Episode 1. Kenny would have backed Larry in throwing her out. Katjaa is the one who likes Clem. Kenny just wants you around as muscle. Is that really who you want to side with?
I still think the prospects of saving Larry were grim, at best. That said, you have a point that life is sacred, and should be preserved at all cost. I do think, though, that we were presented more of a dilemma of "save this versus that" as opposed to "save or not save".
I've said in another thread that, in any other situation, I would have agreed to try to save Larry's life - if we were at the motor inn with all of our weapons handy, for example. But we are locked in a very small room, with no weapons. Most of the characters have made a point of how physically weak they all are (from lack of eating). We know that Walkers are incredibly strong - even the smaller ones, such as the baby sitter in Clem's house.
Larry (like your mother) is predisposed for heart attacks - the last one we saw at the drug store was an example of a minor one. This one is enough to stop his breathing. I would feel pretty safe in saying that this specific heart attack really needs immediate medical treatment - the kind of treatment that we don't really have access to (even were we NOT trapped in the meat locker).
If Larry had turned, I could guarantee you that SOMEONE in that room would have gotten hurt, if not all of them. We have no access to weapons, and no way to escape. The salt blocks are only useful if the target is not moving - and we know that a Walker won't hold still just because we ask it too. I won't say it's one hundred percent possible that someone/everyone would get killed, but the possibility is still really high.
So, for me, the choice is, to attempt to save Larry and lose everyone in the Meat Locker (including Clementine), or to destroy Larry's brain and guarantee everyone's safety.
i played it two different times, well my girl played one.
first time, she wasnt tapping X quick enough and kenny dropped it on larry
second time, i played and tapped X immediately, larry took a gasp for air (his mouth opens and chest moves) then kenny dropped the salt brick on him anyways. pissed me off so much that im going to murder kenny and his family if i get the chance
play the third eposidoe; wish basically granted xD
Comments
I don't think they confirmed that he was alive. Just that there was movement before Kenny kills him.
Like someone else said, the movement could have been Larry coming back as a walker.
Well, ok. But when the person in the truck bed changes, the physical change is very obvious. Larry looked like he wasn't a zombie. I don't think there is any evidence that could change my mind that Larry wasn't a zombie at the time of his skull crushing. I welcome anyone's input, but I just don't see how he was a zombie.
what are you basing this on? the cop in episode 1 didn't bleed out and he turned pale.
I gave my opinion on this above.
The walker in the truck bed died from bleeding out, which in my opinion is the reason for the change in skin color.
I think it would take Larry longer to show this affect because he died of a more natural cause that didn't involve his body losing a HUGE amount of blood like losing a leg or getting shot.
But how long was he laying there? He also didn't die of natural causes. Larry was more immediate.
Just because you are clinically dead doesn't mean you can't be revived though. Larry couldn't have been clincally dead for more than a minute, well within a timeframe of recovery.
True.. But he could have also been dead long enough to turn. I think it's up to "you" as an individual to decide how you want to see it.
I see it as.. He was dead and was coming back as a walker.
You see it as.. He was alive and trying to gasp for air.
And maybe neither of us is wrong because TT left it up in the air for the audience to come to their own conclusions.
Fair enough.
But now I'm curious how long it takes to turn. In the TV show I know they showed what was going on as far as brain activity goes when the group was at the CDC. For that it seemed like you turned after brain death. I don't know what it is like in the comic though.
Larry was pretty full of life before he had his heart attack lol.
This. I have taken four CPR and first Aid classes (and am about to take my fifth), and there are two things we need to know when trying to save someone in distress (it may be more complicated if you are an actual paramedic, but this is what I have been taught):
1. Taking a momentary gasp does not necessarily mean that resuscitation was successful. The CPR process ends when the patient has a normal breathing pattern reestablished. So in Larry's situation, we would have stopped CPR, monitored him for a very short period, and resumed if he needed it.
2. In heart attack situations, the first 24 hours after the heart attack are crucial in keeping the patient alive. They are at the highest risk for a second heart attack (and that one can be fatal), and they need to rest and be monitored by a medical professional. Well, the only professional we have is being held captive by the crazy people we need to escape from. There's no guarantee that, even if you save his life now, that Larry won't just die in the day or so.
I think we have to consider what we know from the game, though.
I'm not sure when the teacher died in my game, but it certainly less than a minute from the time Katjaa called me over to the time that the Walker grabbed her. Lily was performing CPR on Larry, but for all we knew he was already dead, and the countdown had begun. So how long should we delay before we pass the point of no return?
The guy in the truck was left alone for a while, so we don't know at what point the appearance changes since he was already up and moving by the time we find out he has changed, only that it happens quick and that when they are fully mobile they look like that. I reckon the zombies breath or can breath as they make growling noises after all, and so Larry breathing could have been the first stage of zombification, perhaps followed by the change of appearance after his internals have undergone a change. Does either the comics or TV series ever show someone converting from living to death to undeath in full and is it consistent or whatever the hell they feel like at the time? Either way, it was deliberately left ambiguous so we're not really meant to know.
On a side note, if you swear in front of Clem in Ep 1, does she then swear in Ep 2?
Really??? So if one has no breathing, they therefore have no pulse??? I hope no one has a heart attack by you because you'll end up doing CPR on a person with a beating heart!
Better re-take that CPR course cause you're supposed to check the ABC's: Airway, Breathing, Circulation. You most certainly can have a pulse but not have breathing.
Maybe I should have phrased it better, but the point was that the Chest compressions were useless if the man HAS a pulse. No one gives Larry mouth to mouth, which would have been the correct situation had Larry had a pulse but was not breathing. I'm assuming that Lily started chest compressions because he had no pulse.
Besides, I believe I qualifying word in my statement was that if someone had a HEART ATTACK that severe... There are other situations in which a person may need CPR that doesn't necessarily start with CARDIAC ARREST. It's not unreasonable to assume that Larry has no pulse.
Only several months ago a person close to me came under a cardiac arrest. She was unconscious, wasn't breathing and her eyes were glazed over. The only thing I could do were chest compressions and it was fortunate that I did because it brought her back and she resumed breathing and consciousness. I'm no doctor, but speaking from first hand experience I can only recommend that you do the same if you see someone under an attack like that.
My point is, Lee doing heart compressions could may as well have brought him back- Larry's death was hardly definite enough for Kenny to kill him.
I also advise you all that if you see someone fall unconscious and stop breathing- please don't just assume they're already dead. Some of the responses I'm seeing here are really disturbing...
It's a videogame set in a Zombie Apocalypse. I don't think anyone here IRL would just abandon people who are in need. I certainly don't fault Lily's character for trying to save her own father - in fact, I would have thought much. much less about her as a character if she hadn't fought tooth and nail to save his life.
But, pragamatically (fully immersing ourselves in the setting)? Lily performs CPR for at least a full minute, and we are not even truly sure if Larry actually croaked or not. Every second we waste trying to save him gets us one second closer to having him turn on us (and, judging by how quickly the Band teacher turned, seconds are a precious commodity to waste).
sometimes i think people like zombie apocalyptic scenarios to justify the killing of other humans lol
First off, implying that people are disturbed for discussing an action in a computer game is a bit rude, it's a game no one is justifying it for real life. I for one am not about to drop a salt lick on anyone's head any time soon.
As to CPR bringing back your friend, cardiac arrest does not usually means that their heart stops, your friend probably still had a pulse whereas Larry was reported as having none and cardiac arrest can lead to almost immediate death. I'm not saying that he was definitely dead or irretrievable, but considering the situation Kenny did have cause to be concerned.
CPR is the best tool we, as health care providers, can provide someone who is clinically dead within reason that they haven't been dead for too long. Clinically dead means that your heart has stopped beating or is not providing an adequate pulse.
According to the American Heart Association (AHA) since 2010 the method for CPR is CAB (compression, airway, and breathing) instead of the old 2005 method ABC. There is more focus on the circulation or compressions since they have found that delays in compression are detrimental to the patients’ outcome. Delaying the start of compression or pausing in-between compression are considered delays in CPR. On a side note, some areas of emergency medicine go as far to say that compressions are the only thing needed to revive someone. Check Arizona’s method of dealing with cardiac situations which can be very insightful.
Now for Larry’s cardiac problem. There really isn't a need to check for Larry’s pulse. He just dropped in front of you and we can all safely assuming he just had a heart attack. This is because his mental status went from conscious to unconscious and not breathing, with him holding onto his chest as he went down. He went from low risk of death to DEAD in about 2 seconds. To lose consciousness that fast would have meant that his blood pressure dropped which caused his brain to stop functioning properly due to the lack of oxygen via blood. The blood pressure dropped because his heart has stopped pumping efficiently. This could be due to the heart quivering and in a state of either ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation. Both states are shockable via defib or in an old crude method called a cardiac thump (giving a quick hammer-like thump to his chest). His heart could be in a worst state where there is no electrical activity, called asystole which is not shockable. If you had an EKG attached to him, you could see this happening to him in real time. Unfortunately, we are in zombie mix up and this isn't possible lol.
So after saying all of that. Lily did have the right idea based on the old method and started CPR, albeit pretty slow. Now CPR is great, but there are some BIG assumptions here. We already know Larry has a non-specific heart condition that causes angina (chest pain) which is relieved by nitro. We don't why this occurs exactly. Are his arteries clogged or harden or is his heart failing due to other reasons?
Why he just dropped dead I do know. His heart isn't, in some form, receiving the blood that carries the oxygen it needs.
Now a lot of you are correct in stating that CPR will bring a dead person back to life for this particular case. However, the chances of someone being revived with CPR are pretty small and only increase with good compressions and when the CPR was started sooner to when the heart stop beating. There is a caveat though. If the block is bad enough to completely occlude the artery that provides the blood to the heart, you will have no way to oxygenate the heart and it will die anyway regardless of CPR. Thus, he could ultimately die anyway. If you were able to resume a stable rhythm, he would need to be quickly brought to a hospital that can perform a cardiac catheterization. They don’t perform that procedure with the person in a non-sustainable rhythm unless he dies on the table and not to mention there aren’t any nearby doctors to perform it. Unless you consider the zombie ones, they are excellent surgeon apparently >.<
To tackle Larry speaking with CPR, this in fact could happen. Since it has been recorded by Arizona and others that people in cardiac arrest with CPR can act with purposeful movement. He speaks because you have raised his blood pressure high enough for him to function a little. Sadly Larry would’ve of probably stopped speaking once CPR stopped. This is because Larry probably suffered the mother of all heart attacks (bad heart occlusion) and will no doubt need surgery to open up his artery to help provided blood/oxygen to the living tissue since his heart is having trouble sustaining that rhythm without assistance. Sadly again, CPR is very exhausting so you probably won’t be able to keep him alive anyway for very long.
Now if things couldn’t get worst, people can change into zombies without getting bitten. Isn’t that just peachy? So immediately knowing that, I would NOT perform any mouth to mouth resuscitation. I rather have a quick death then my face being chewed off. Though luckily for Larry and Arizona research compression are adequate enough lol. However, we don’t know how long or how quick or if we can even prevent a person from changing. That is a high risk to me and my fellow non-zombie mates that I am not willing to take.
CPR is a great simple process, but it really isn’t so simple. Mix in the limited success, long recovery, Larry being a 300 pound gorilla of dead weight, chances of being turned to zombie without a bite, limited data on how they turn without a bite, stuck in a freezer and having a chance of a 300 pound gorilla becoming a 300 pound zombie gorilla. The choice is becoming pretty obvious.
And to add some woes for Larry’s bad luck. If he does live, did enough heart tissue survive for him to continue on with this new zombie infested life style? How are you going to sustain his critical condition if you do resuscitate him? Are you going to become his personal breathing machine if he doesn’t breath on his own even with a pulse? In all cases, how the heck are you going to move a 300 pound gorilla that would need lots medical attention? He isn’t going to be able to defend himself. He is just dead weight. Ultimate in a unsafe zombie world, he is dead meat.
So if there is something to take away from this, don’t have a heart attack during a zombie apocalypse
P.S
I did water down/skipped some things about CPR and some medical jumbo to keep things bearable to read. So if some of this is confusing, I can clarify or add if need be.
Looking back in hindsight, I don't think there could have been anyway to really save Larry, apart from the writers pulling "magic" and having him make an instant full recovery. We know that the Walkers overrun the Farm in the end. Larry was a big dude, and would have probably been completely unconscious, at least not capable of turning tail and running. We know that every single adult there is suffering from malnourishment, and probably in a weakened state. It would have been a "Great, we saved his life to have to leave him behind for the Walkers!" type scenario.
I'll keep this in mind lol
Good info though. It's nice when people with real-world knowlege chime in on things. That being said though, sisterofshane brings up the point of "magic" and that the writers probably don't know what you know about the likelyhood of reviving someone with Larry's condition with CPR.
Hahahaha, I get that a lot. I promise it was given to me with no filthy intention. Though, I did realize its dirty potential when I was banned from a counter-strike server some many years back lol. My friends gave me that nick name during high school since I looked like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo with my long "shaggy" hair. Why my friends decided on the last name, Wang, baffles even me. All I know that it’s based from some ninja character they watched from a movie that had the name Mr. Wang or something of the sort. So with their bright minds put together they made up the nickname Shaggywang. =P
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I did wish they distracted clementine before they killed him. That isn’t something a little girl should see. Nor should she (or the group for that matter) have seen me kill the guy on the fence.
Heart attacks themselves range in severity and cause. Go hit up wikipedia for more direct information. CPR is designed to manually cause the heart to pump but Larry could have possibly recovered. If the heart attacks are caused by blockages, pumping may move the blockage and restore his movement for a time(possibly allowing the clot to move to the brain and kill him more instantly). If the heart attacks were caused by faults in the sinoatrial node, CPR is a little more effective and could allow him to live long enough to get some of St. Johns medical supplies. Ignore the fact that the walkers eventually overrun the place and try to imagine a different scenario.
All that being said, it probably is best to kill Larry but I considered it a choice in the matter of timing. Until we know for certain someone will turn, we should preserve their lives. I try to think, what if it were Clementine? I'd want Lily by my side to help me save her. Imagine if Clementine had been the one with muck on her back in the pharmacy in Episode 1. Kenny would have backed Larry in throwing her out. Katjaa is the one who likes Clem. Kenny just wants you around as muscle. Is that really who you want to side with?
I still think the prospects of saving Larry were grim, at best. That said, you have a point that life is sacred, and should be preserved at all cost. I do think, though, that we were presented more of a dilemma of "save this versus that" as opposed to "save or not save".
I've said in another thread that, in any other situation, I would have agreed to try to save Larry's life - if we were at the motor inn with all of our weapons handy, for example. But we are locked in a very small room, with no weapons. Most of the characters have made a point of how physically weak they all are (from lack of eating). We know that Walkers are incredibly strong - even the smaller ones, such as the baby sitter in Clem's house.
Larry (like your mother) is predisposed for heart attacks - the last one we saw at the drug store was an example of a minor one. This one is enough to stop his breathing. I would feel pretty safe in saying that this specific heart attack really needs immediate medical treatment - the kind of treatment that we don't really have access to (even were we NOT trapped in the meat locker).
If Larry had turned, I could guarantee you that SOMEONE in that room would have gotten hurt, if not all of them. We have no access to weapons, and no way to escape. The salt blocks are only useful if the target is not moving - and we know that a Walker won't hold still just because we ask it too. I won't say it's one hundred percent possible that someone/everyone would get killed, but the possibility is still really high.
So, for me, the choice is, to attempt to save Larry and lose everyone in the Meat Locker (including Clementine), or to destroy Larry's brain and guarantee everyone's safety.
play the third eposidoe; wish basically granted xD