To Telltale Games: About Kenny...
Now before you misunderstand anything, I want them to know that I do respect how they have developed Kenny's character up to now. I think it added a whole new dimension to the story the way he handled what to do with Larry, even if it was shocking. A good character needs to have complexity and at this point Kenny has shown a large boost in character complexity in episode 2. I have found him overall to be one of the most interesting characters in the game.
Having said that, I feel like the way they have handled the progression has been a bit uneven. I, along with a majority of the players based on the stat trailer, picked the option to reason with Larry to try and calm both of them down. I can understand Kenny not wanting to accept that, since he is a very hard headed guy and he could see it as disagreeing with him. That said, I then proceeded in PRETTY MUCH EVERY OTHER SITUATION to side with Kenny to the point I yelled and threatened Larry that I would die before they touched Duck. I had already saved him from the walkers earlier and I wanted to do my best to protect him because I cared for that family.
So why does Kenny only remember the time I tried to reason with Larry and make it seem like everything else I did never happened? It is one thing if I actually voted to throw Duck out, but it feels like an overreaction to all the other choices I made that pretty much showed I was loyal to Kenny. Heck, I fed Duck in episode 2 and Kenny treated me like his best friend for "being a real man," but then he turned around in the next scene and told me how horrible I was because I "voted to throw him out" (which I did not!).
I don't think Kenny is a terrible person and I want to be able to show that (which there were not really any options to do so), even if I was frustrated with how he handled Larry in episode 2. It just comes across as an error in either the writing or the game's stat tracking. Is it possible to address this either in episode 2 or later in episode 3? Or is this part of some story arc I am not fully grasping?
Having said that, I feel like the way they have handled the progression has been a bit uneven. I, along with a majority of the players based on the stat trailer, picked the option to reason with Larry to try and calm both of them down. I can understand Kenny not wanting to accept that, since he is a very hard headed guy and he could see it as disagreeing with him. That said, I then proceeded in PRETTY MUCH EVERY OTHER SITUATION to side with Kenny to the point I yelled and threatened Larry that I would die before they touched Duck. I had already saved him from the walkers earlier and I wanted to do my best to protect him because I cared for that family.
So why does Kenny only remember the time I tried to reason with Larry and make it seem like everything else I did never happened? It is one thing if I actually voted to throw Duck out, but it feels like an overreaction to all the other choices I made that pretty much showed I was loyal to Kenny. Heck, I fed Duck in episode 2 and Kenny treated me like his best friend for "being a real man," but then he turned around in the next scene and told me how horrible I was because I "voted to throw him out" (which I did not!).
I don't think Kenny is a terrible person and I want to be able to show that (which there were not really any options to do so), even if I was frustrated with how he handled Larry in episode 2. It just comes across as an error in either the writing or the game's stat tracking. Is it possible to address this either in episode 2 or later in episode 3? Or is this part of some story arc I am not fully grasping?
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Comments
Duck is the most important thing to him.
Sure you're good to him and everything all of those other times but it's still in the back of his mind that you were willing to "reason with Larry" when it came to the safety of his son.
You trying to "reason with Larry" probably isn't a big deal to you, because you don't take that as "throw him out". But to Kenny who is very passionate when it comes to his family could have taken it as you saying "let's not take a chance and get rid of him".
I'm trying to see things in Kenny's point of view. He's just trying to do things in order for his family to survive. If there is anything that could possibly get in the way of that and he wants that thing taken care of. Can't say I blame him.
Regardless, there's always the option to replay the game, it's fairly short and can fix those "misunderstandings."
It's a game design failure to me. I've repeated a lot over here.
I didn't want to throw Duck out... Only that Kenny didn't precipitate with unknown guys.
The answer Kenny should remember it's the next one Lee gives to Larry. There are four choices, I think. Two radicals and two fine.
This is reinforced with the entire meat locker situation in episode 2.
I am trying to see things from his point too. I totally understand a lot of the actions he does to protect his family, even abandoning Shawn when you try to save him. And I admitted that I agreed with him not accepting the reasoning option with Larry, since his anger and sense of duty make it hard for him to listen to what you may be meaning (it is a very ambiguous response granted).
However, it feels like that should not have been the option to decide if you sided with Larry or Kenny. I feel the following response should have been the one where the game tracks your alliance because that is when you make a definitive "Yes" or "No" response to the situation. It claims that it keeps track of that second response too, but it feels ridiculous to me that Kenny does not remember you telling Larry to kill you before he touches Duck. That does not sound like "deciding to throw him out" like Kenny claims you did does it?
If this is the case (which it seems it is) Kenny's going to have to learn to adjust to the needs of the group or leave with his family. Maybe Katjaa can talk some sense into him.
I agree that the whole "sided with Larry" decision was a bit off, especially when the dialogue was "WE [Lee and Kenny] reason with him.". How exactly was this siding with Larry? It really should have been the end result of the decision that the characters noted - if you stood between Larry and Duck, you sided with Kenny.
I think it's important to note, however, that there were three months in between episodes that we didn't see, and that means that there is character development that we didn't see, even for Lee. I think the set up for episode two is that Lilly and Kenny have differing opinions on how the group should be led, and everyone else (including Lee) has been reluctant to take sides. So just because you as the player sided with Kenny/Larry at every available opportunity doesn't mean that Lee has spent the last three months doing so. Not backing him up when he makes the decision about Larry might just the the straw that tips the camels back.
I think that's a very astute assessment of his character.
It seems like he is very unwelcoming of other people's opinions that differ from his own, even if they are about insignificant subjects or are obviously better that his ideas. For example, when he wants to get behind the locked barn door in episode 2 he acquiesces to Lee's request that he not just break the lock with a hammer in front of Andy, but still gets bitchy when you offer a more practical solution.
In fact the only time I can recall him even remotely welcoming an opinion that was not his own is when you tell him to forgive himself about letting Shawn die (or rather not trying to help).
when talking after the event he seemed more angry at himself for stepping over the line. and doing what larry wanted to do to his son.
he still recognized that i was a friend and talked to me calmly about the fallout.
i told him he was no hero and destroyed 2 lives and he will have to live with that.
he seems to be more regretfull than anything else in my game.
Maybe we are meant to develop a hate for Kenny, then have to decide who to save again or push his trust to some ultimate limit. Sure Larry was just looking out for his daughter, but alot of us wanted him dead asap. Maybe we're meant to like Kenny from the start, have him turn on us, then be forced to save his life later on.
As I've mentioned before, upon learning of Kenny's boat and personally believe that could be the ultimate safety, that's been MY main goal.. So I'll do my best for the group, I'll put up with Kenny's attitude swings at leaste till we're on the boat. (providing the boat isnt sunk or the marina destroyed at the end) in which case I'll just off Kenny!
I have two playthroughs both with reasoning with him but one where Kenney punched Larry and one where Lee shouted Larry into having a heartattack and stating that Larry would have to kill him (Lee) first. The game clearly remembers me sticking by Kenney for the former but not the latter, indicating that some checkbox somewhere isn't getting ticked like it should.
Which is a shame, as that little rant Lee does was one of my favorite lines in the first game. I was pretty disappointed that Kenny didn't remember that one time Lee shouted at someone so hardcore, it gave that dude heart palpitations.
I don't want to post spoilers, but it is brought up in conversation in episode 2 how I didn't stand up for him. I know the choices, I didn't make a mistake on the matter. My only annoyance.
I chose to reason with Larry at first then very quickly started threatening him etc when he acted unreasonable, and Kenny has been nothing but nice to me since. I definitely clicked that option, it even shows me saying we reason with him in the Episode 1 flashback, but Kenny says "we really gave him hell" etc after the argument and calls me a good friend when he picks me up
Aye, I would prefer to choose it everytime it's that epic!
Just replayed my main to test (and to see what happens when you kill Larry instead, made a copy of my save beforehand) and Kenny definitely remembers you standing up for him if you chose to get him to try punching Larry as my Lee brought up his standing by Kenny as a reason to give Lily the benefit of the doubt, whereas my playthrough yesterday with the epic speech instead Kenny brought up in order to point out that Lee wanted to let Duck die, so it's definitely something up with the choice.
This is why I think it's supposed to carry over whether you get Kenny to punch him or shout him down, as he called me a good friend both times yet in episode 2 it seems to completely forget that I did this with my second playthrough.
yes, Kenny seemed to think I stood up for Duck throughout episode 1, and he does call me a good friend at the end even though I took too long and actually made NO decision between Duck and Shawn. (Until Kenny ran up to get Duck at which point I ran to help Shawn) But in episode 2 that changed to him saying that I sided with Larry in the drug store.
I hope so. I am playing my Lee as the peacemaker and as much as both Kenny and Lilly have flaws, I would like to try and be on both of their good sides for as much as I can. Or at least be able to have the game track my responses accurately so it does not make Kenny look schizo.
Hmmmm, I know different versions are glitched differently, mine is a European 360 version. I said we reason with him, then proceeded to side fully with Kenny. He has acted in Episode 2 as though we are best friends. (in the episode 1 recap it shows me saying we reason with him).
Really? Interesting.
Have you tried on PS3 or the other versions too?
No I only have a 360. I'd be frustrated if I had initially tried to reason with Larry rather than jump straight in with I'll kick your ass, and Kenny held that against me. Surely anyone would at least try to reason with him first.
So you see where I am coming from
Well either my game is glitched or yours is. I'm curious as to whether anyone else has the same game experience as me, I'm in the UK playing XBox.
I checked again today, the flashback from Episode 1 shows me saying we reason with him, and Kenny is super nice at the motel and says I've done more than enough to warrant a place on the RV. As I said, straight after trying to reason with Larry I immediately selected the more forceful options and threatened him as I got nowhere trying to calm him down.
Maybe he's a good friend and all, but all he thinks about is HIMSELF!
Larry could still be alive, but this F*** killed the poor old guy.
Must admit I didnt like Larry at first, but hey, he's just protecting his doughter!
Kenny maybe thought it was a smar moved to kill him, but I assume that will lead into Lilly leaving the group.
I do agree with all this, but did the thought of a rampaging 300lb monster in a confined space, with Clementine there, not scare you?
when looked at like this, as we're seeing...people change.
I love the discussions here as we're all able to analyze their situation from the safety of our 'normal' world. As for Kenny, I agree with the others. At first he seems like a right friendly, family oriented guy but his true colors show at this hint of any real pressure put on the group
Well it is not so much that he switches. I am totally fine with the idea of him being hypocritical or irrational if it makes sense character and narrative wise, but I am not fine when all of my responses are registered that I sided with Kenny, but then the game arbitrarily tells me that I voted to throw Duck out of the store when I did not. Just because we mention something like being "having no normal situations," it is still a story and has to make sense as a narrative. If it did not feel like an error in stat tracking, it would have been fine.
Hell yeah it scares! but I guess that if Kenny was getting ready with the saltbrick if Larry would eventually turn into a walker, it would be OK...
That's a fair desicion for both sides, don't you agree lads?
The walkers in this game seem to leap to attention as soon as they reanimate, and the salt lick would be very heavy and clumsy to use on a moving target of any kind.
Had he reanimated there and then, there would have been serious problems. That is the beauty of the scenario, either take the less human approach and dispose of the potential threat, or wait and risk serious danger- there was no viable half way option.
Of course it all depends on if he was actually dead or not. Just because he did not have a pulse does not mean he was completely dead. Besides, I would want to do the humane thing in spite of what may seem the situation. I personally even in that situation could not get over being unsure if Larry was actually dead and I may have his blood on my hands.
Yeah exactly. As I say, if you take the compassionate option you are only risking serious danger, there's the other side of that coin that says he may be alive. Take the other option and you'll never know, but you do know the threat is gone.
Which is probably why it was necessary for Kenny to take that route because there is technically no good answer no matter what you choose. It is supposed to be an ambiguous choice, which is something I think the writers and director handled well.
I digress though. My problem is not with that scene because I thought that was perfectly fine. My issue was how my choices where I supported Kenny in Episode 1 translated as me siding with Larry in Episode 2. If that is somehow explained, I would be fine.
I have a problem with that too. Apparently trying to "reason" with Larry means that we sided with him, even if you ultimately put yourself in between Larry and Duck and refuse to let him carry out with his plan.
Really the plot marker should have been at that very moment - when you either stand up to Larry or decide to let him go after Duck. It makes for really confusing dialogue when you believe that you have always been on Kenny's side and his "elephant memory" (as someone else so aptly called it) only brings up that you didn't immediately put the smack down on Larry.
Like the others have said, when you initially meet Kenny nothing has hit the fan yet, so there's no way to judge his true character but as the story progresses you see he's looking out for his family and his family only. Black and White. And that's why, after 3 mos, he wont let you forget it- the only thing that matters to him, imo.
I can understand that Lily wont shoot the St. John at the fence scene(if you chose to kill Larry), her dad's body is probably still warm, but when Kenny refuses to help you from the stall just cause you wont back him up...that was more telling than the farm. He now sees you as an uncooperative pawn, if you wont obey his commands you are no longer useful in the protection of his family.