Meat Locker Dilemma
I, like most players, initially sided with Lilly in trying to resuscitate Larry. In retrospect, I may have made the wrong call.
Initially, I understood Kenny’s concern about zombie Larry, but back at the motor inn, the injured body brought in did not turn undead until several minutes later. I thought I had time to save Larry. If I couldn’t save him in say, two minutes, then I would advocate using the salt lick to crush his skull, but Kenny made a rushed judgment.
However, I may have been wrong. The injured body was being treated by Katjaa. She could have prolonged the person’s life. So instead of minutes of trying to resuscitate Larry, I could have had only seconds.
I thought if Larry turned zombie that we would notice, but when Katjaa was attacked, she didn’t say afterward that the skin around his eyeballs suddenly darkened, so he looked undead. The injured body became undead without Katjaa noticing despite her close examination of him.
Assume for the sake of argument, that the injured body, was untreated by Katjaa, and became undead in two minutes.
Does that mean everyone becomes undead in two minutes? Not necessarily. That could be the minimum time or maximum time for the dead-to-undead process to occur. You don’t know. With that uncertainty, do you risk trying to resuscitate Larry? I reluctantly conclude Kenny made the right decision.
I could still be wrong because I am overlooking an important factor. If so, tell me.
Two unrelated points:
1. I will play the campaign with my initial decision of siding with Lilly.
2. Kenny is hard to please. I redid Episode 1 and Episode 2 to closer ally myself with Kenny, except for the meat locker dilemma. I helped rescue Duck, sided with Kenny in the pharmacy, gave Duck a snack, supported Kenny’s boat plan, fed both Duck and Kenny at the motor inn, and mostly agreed with him on everything else, except the argument about Lilly being a dictator (that was exaggerated and I think she was right about being called a Nazi when survival became tougher). When walking to the abandoned car, I gave him the gentlest response: he fractured the group. Despite my near constant agreement with him, in the Long Road Ahead preview, he says I never listened to him. I don’t hate Kenny, but if all my prior support isn’t reciprocated in Episode 3, I may dump him as an ally.
Initially, I understood Kenny’s concern about zombie Larry, but back at the motor inn, the injured body brought in did not turn undead until several minutes later. I thought I had time to save Larry. If I couldn’t save him in say, two minutes, then I would advocate using the salt lick to crush his skull, but Kenny made a rushed judgment.
However, I may have been wrong. The injured body was being treated by Katjaa. She could have prolonged the person’s life. So instead of minutes of trying to resuscitate Larry, I could have had only seconds.
I thought if Larry turned zombie that we would notice, but when Katjaa was attacked, she didn’t say afterward that the skin around his eyeballs suddenly darkened, so he looked undead. The injured body became undead without Katjaa noticing despite her close examination of him.
Assume for the sake of argument, that the injured body, was untreated by Katjaa, and became undead in two minutes.
Does that mean everyone becomes undead in two minutes? Not necessarily. That could be the minimum time or maximum time for the dead-to-undead process to occur. You don’t know. With that uncertainty, do you risk trying to resuscitate Larry? I reluctantly conclude Kenny made the right decision.
I could still be wrong because I am overlooking an important factor. If so, tell me.
Two unrelated points:
1. I will play the campaign with my initial decision of siding with Lilly.
2. Kenny is hard to please. I redid Episode 1 and Episode 2 to closer ally myself with Kenny, except for the meat locker dilemma. I helped rescue Duck, sided with Kenny in the pharmacy, gave Duck a snack, supported Kenny’s boat plan, fed both Duck and Kenny at the motor inn, and mostly agreed with him on everything else, except the argument about Lilly being a dictator (that was exaggerated and I think she was right about being called a Nazi when survival became tougher). When walking to the abandoned car, I gave him the gentlest response: he fractured the group. Despite my near constant agreement with him, in the Long Road Ahead preview, he says I never listened to him. I don’t hate Kenny, but if all my prior support isn’t reciprocated in Episode 3, I may dump him as an ally.
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Comments
I just don't think the Lee I'm playing would be able to kill without confirming these facts with his own eyes. Seems like the game is kinda relying on you to make decisions based on your foreknowledge of zombies from pop culture.
Really think about the two possible injured people that you can bring back to camp with you. Do either of them look like they've sustained other injuries (apart from the missing leg/gun shot wound)? Do they look like they are suffering from the symptoms of a zombie bite (as compared to Irene in the motor inn, who VISIBLY looked ill)? Katjaa even clarifies that there was no bite on either of the bodies that she treated. Even if Ben's story is circumstantial evidence, it's always reasonable to err on the side of caution.
Err on the side of caution? He's about to help violently murder someone in front of children, you'd think he'd want to be absolutely 100% sure. Hey maybe the bite was on the band teacher's leg, the one Lee cuts off? Maybe the bite was small and Kat didn't notice? Maybe they were bitten and before they could develop viable symptoms they died from the gunshot/decapitation, prompting the transformation process to rapidly accelerate? I didn't see her stripping the body before declaring it unbitten.
First of all, "violently murder" implies that you were one hundred percent certain that Larry was alive at the time the salt block was dropped, which for most people he wasn't (at least not until the dev's confirmed that IF you managed to move quickly enough, that he DID slightly have his lips quiver just before the salt block made contact).
Second, err on the side of caution, for the specific purpose of regarding Ben's information, would be to assume that everyone has the potential to turn into a Walker, regardless of "bite status", until otherwise confirmed. There's a difference between giving Larry the benefit of the doubt of being alive, and still being cautious because he might come back as Zombie if he really is dead.
I was fairly certain he still had brain activity, death is not usually an instantaneous affair. I wouldn't expect Lee to risk extinguishing a human life with no more real evidence than some second-hand information from a spooked teenager. My take on the character needs more than that before he can destroy the group and traumatise a little girl for life.
While I would say that lingering Brain activity is different from guaranteeing that his heart or lungs would ever function normally again, I can't fault you for not wanting to needlessly traumatize Clementine. In hindsight, though, I think she will end up being less traumatized if you side with Kenny than if you side with Lilly, because for one, she gets warned not to watch, and it's easier to explain to her after the fact that Larry WAS dead (despite what I had actually believe, this is the approach I would take with her),then it would be to explain to her that you felt Larry could be saved and Kenny offed him anyway.
Not that you could possibly know any of that, however, so it makes it a moot point.
We do NOT know how long it took for the teacher to turn after he died. It's safe to presume he was still alive when Lee was helping Katjaa, and that she was checking his pulse periodically. We should also presume she called Kenny and Lee over as soon as she noticed the teacher's death, and in between that and the moment she was pounced by the teacher was around one minute. We also do not know whether he sprung into movement immediately upon being reanimated, nor do we know whether Katjaa had actually diagnosed his death correctly. Summing up, it's possible the teacher reanimated even before all his life signs died out, and in any event it's very likely the process kicked in within 2 or 3 minutes of his death.
This is something the group should've used as an indicator on Larry's reanimation in the meat locker. For all they knew based on the eventualities depicted above, Larry could've begun reanimating any second, and Kenny needed nearly half a minute to heave the salt lick over and smash it on his head, so they could've been in real trouble had they not acted asap.
People have pointed out that the fact Larry stopped breathing doesn't mean he was actually dead, and that it can take up to 5 minutes for the body to shut down after breathing has ceased. However:
1. The events in between Larry's heart attack and Lee's choice took up a good slice of those 5 minutes, and Kenny hadn't even begun preparing the salt lick yet.
2. We haven't actually received any proof you need to die in order to turn. Considering it's apparently a virus, a viable theory would also be your body fights the virus and keeps it in check as long as you're in good condition, but once your body becomes too weak to resist it, the virus takes over.
I don't believe it is ever confirmed to be a virus.
so once the brain die's the virus then takes over.. so if we say approx ten minutes minimum ?
This is a bit off-topic, but props to Kenny and especially Lilly's voice actors during that scene. It was really well done.
As I see it there was no clear right or wrong answer, either you do the right thing for the wrong reasons, or the wrong thing for the right reasons. In any case you and the other group members will have doubts to ponder and at times will wonder what might've been if you'd chosen differently.
I'm really loving the way the narrative is playing out so far.
I don't think any TWD official source has labeled the affliction as viral nor is the source of the epidemic is ever explained.
That's not true. Most people did try to save Larry and thought he could still be saved. Accept it, it's most you that believed that :P
That's why I said apparently.
The wiki page says the only reason there are truly dead bodies lying around is because brain trauma prevented them from turning. Ok.
So. Lee's parents, found dead in their office. There was never any mention of the condition of their bodies, but if the above two wiki references are true, the only reason that Lee's parents were bodies to be thrown out vs two zombies to smack down is what.... They both had brain injuries? Obviously to have a brain injury stopping zombiefication would mean they would have been unable to crawl in there and barricade themselves in. The room is most definitely barricaded.
The only other option being, what.... That the Lilly group arrived to the drug store within 2-10 minutes of their death? Although the wiki mentions that is could be as long as 8 hours, but then goes on to mention how much "life" was in them beforehand makes a difference on the time. Two old people, one severely injured (lots of blood on the floor)...
Why didn't Lee's dad, the implied injured one, turn and eat his wife? Seriously. There should have been two zombies in there, not two bodies to be thrown out.
This at least should have made the Teen's conclusion a little less unlikely. Either way. Although it may make "horrifying sense" when he says it, just because you're a little pessimistic from the zombie apocalypse, you can't assume things will get even worse.
I don't have a good judgement on either decision. As I said in another thread, there's plenty of better solutions, but Kenny took them all away.
I agree, Kaapo. The little time between death and reanimation and the time used by Lee, Kenny, and Lilly talking made the reanimation a bigger risk.
In-game, you don’t know what the wiki says. That makes the game more interesting. You have to weigh the evidence rather than have the comic creator tell you how reanimation occurs.
I am curious if the detailed arguments in this and other threads will be used by Kenny and Lilly in the future. I don’t blame Kenny or Lilly. There was too little time to carefully think about the right call and thinking about it afterward will only worsen the memory for the survivors.
It's not like there are studies on zombification in The Lancet. Brain trauma prevents turning but there could be other undiscovered biological or genetic factors to slow or even prevent turning (e.g. cowpox to smallpox, sickle cell to malaria).
The rationalization and consolation he seeks from Lee for his decisions will always just be something that keeps him from putting a bullet in his own brain (second to a living family.) In a world where the apocalypse ended and normalcy returned, I can see Kenny becoming either a drunk or killing himself because his family is now safe and don't directly need him. I honestly do.
Why do I think Kenny regrets despite all his bark that he's making the right decisions?
He sincerely apologizes to Lilly for what he "is about to do" so to speak, before he does the act. Some people would say sorry isn't enough, and it won't be to Lilly... But he apologized before, not after, and his tone of voice was very sincere to me. The look on his face after he does it, he seems to be shocked even at himself from his own actions. HE says/does these things whether you side with him or not the entire game, which means this is the true him. There's an inner battle in him, there, that is raging just as much in him as ourselves/Lee. He's far more complex a character than Lilly, although emotionally, I totally get her thoughts processes about the decision and for leaving me to die afterward on the fence. I wish the next episode would take that into account, with perhaps a deepening of her character as she considers herself and what she now knows to be capable of; cold blooded vengeance. Larry, apparently, never rethinks his humanity after leaving me to die, totally rationalizing/absorbing it and completely unapologetic. In epi 3, She should be shocked at her own feelings about leaving him to die if she were a complex enough character. Unfortunately, following this forum has told me about the show/comic book series and I worry she'll be going poof soon.
I believe the sentiment is that most people believe that you should try to save Larry, even if he was past the point of no return. That is much different from believing that he was alive ,or that he definitely would be after you jumped in to help.
As far as the "virus" debate goes, I think it stems from the fact that most people believed that the "bite" is what caused you to turn - and what is mostly likely to be transferred from saliva to blood? A virus. People then just naturally assume that it must still be a virus, but one that lies dormant in us, as opposed to only being a blood-borne pathogen.
The truth is that we don't know what causes us to become Walkers, and Ben's shocking revelation is yet further proof of the fact that no one really knows. Better then to err on the side of caution, then to find yourself mentally unprepared for a situation when it goes from bad to worse (ie, the person you THOUGHT was dead now comes back).
I got that impression from him, as well. (I also sided with him in the meat locker). I do believe that it was the morally wrong choice to make - but I try to remember that we are living in the zombie apocalypse, and the knowledge that ALL of the dead come back (even if it's not a confirmed fact) is pretty much a "game changer". If this piece of evidence IS true, we are going to have to reevaluate methods and standards for life-saving procedures and for the handling of the recently deceased. (An example might be putting a limit on CPR attempts, instead of performing it until a doctor gives confirmation of death. Another example will be "abandoning" funeral practices that aim to keep the body intact).
We feel guilt because as of now, these are not accepted cultural practices. Sometimes survival demands, though, that culture change and adapt.
Pathogenic bacteria can be transmitted through saliva.
I was thinking the human race could live on easily enough, it shouldn't effect procreation. Our lifespans would decrease quite a lot, because the minute someone looked iffy, their head has got to get cut off.
Also.... No one was thinking of cross contamination, but Lee whacked a zombies head off with that axe. IT's got zombie gook all over it, then Lee hacked a man's leg off. That right there was as bad as a zombie biting him.
Doesn't explain Travis, though.
I wasn't talking about pregnancy or whether it was safe, but that we're going to have to take a staunch position in order to survive as a species (pregnancy doesn't matter if the adult birthing population dies out). If that means that CPR is only attempted for a set amount of time in order to minimize the risk to the rescuer, than so be it. If it means that time honored burial practices need to be done away with, so be it. It's probably a few of these cultural practices that have made the situation as bad as it was (imagining everyone is running around trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and end up getting themselves killed, which in turn only makes MORE walkers).
That doesn't mean that we should give up EVERYTHING in the name of survival. That would be the St. John's and the Bandits. They leave NO hope for the future, they just live day to day, doing whatever they need to make sure that they live for another hour.
so they could have gambled on that... and kill him when he transformed.
DO NOT KILL YOUR OWN! This is something my Lee's only added after the events on the Dairy Farm... He tried to save Larry, a man he thinks the group would be better off without, because of it. And I was quick enough to see Larry start to come back to us, just before Kenny dropped the salt lick, firmly planting this idea in his mind.
on my second playthrough i thought i might get a cool zombie fight or save him so i tryed to help and was actually shocked when kenny killed him.
P.S also i dont think larry would want to kill lilly so if he was telepathic (in my opinion) would have told me he wanted to die rather than kill lilly
But the bottm line is Larry is a human till proven zombie, we could have held him down till he turned. Kenny murdered Larry as far as im concerned.
where is this court of zombie, where it is human until proven zombie
its zombie until proven human, if you are bit or dead you need your brain removing instantly
In your version. Not in mine. In mine, Larry becoming a walker would have been bad news for the group (which includes Clementine) so we took him out before it could happen. The End... Of Larry anyway
Larry as a zombie would have been impossible to control and would have probably bitten someone before being awkwardly put down with the lack of weapons. They make a point to establish that even a tiny zombie is hard to control by three people - go back to the truck encounter, raise the DC by 10 and unequip everyone. That's what would have happened.
But I choose also to help Lily. Why?
#1 Because as some here already stated, Larry wasn't dead/zombified yet, so there could have been a chance to still safe him.. and as tiny as this chance may be, I at least would always help and try safe him.
#2 Just as Rick Grimes in the TV-Series said to Daryl: "We don't kill the Living." And Larry, not yet zombified, does count for me still as a human I could save through CPR. As simple as that.
And I give a rats ass about all these ifs and whats in regards of Larry beeing revived as a walker and the problems you (Lee), Kenny, Clementine and Lily would have to face. Because, the game/story isn't programmed to go that way. If it actually were like that, you try helping Larry, Kenny doesn't throw the saltblock on his face, Larry revives as a walker and bites someone else in the aftermath... TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY. I would probably instantly play that chapter again and choose otherwise.
But, as amusing as this discussion is, what bothered me the most was the fact that Clementine had to see all of this. With her reaction afterwards I was so furious I seriously wanted to slap Kenny around a bit (so kudos to the Devs for making the game so emotional).
So.. You're reasoning for choosing to help Larry is because the game isn't programmed that way lol, and if it was you would start over?? Seriously? I'm playing the game through on my initial reactions and not making decisions with thoughts of "starting over". So, Larry has a chance of turning into a walker then he's done. In other words, in my game the "what if's" that you mentioned are very important.
I couldn't do that... My Lee was siding with Lilly and becoming more and more estranged from Kenny. Plus what she tells you when you talk to her about her dad (before opening the barn)... And losing Mark... My Lee wasn't about to lose another one of His Own if he could help it. He's basically decided at this point that "We don't kill our own". Larry was an Asshole, sure, but they had been living together for 3 months and my Lee understood why he was such an ass.
How could Kenny just smash in the guys head, he's been with him for 3 Months. Yeah, Larry tries to kill you the first day he met you. but my Lee gave him the Axe and he did try to save Lee with it. (Being an Ass the entire way, but still.)... If even Larry won't stand by and watch Lee die, what kind of a man does Kenny have to be to jump the gun on killing Larry?
Lee gets the need for it, but to do that in front of Lilly and Clem... Without even letting enough time pass for more than 5 attempts (Technically 4, the 5th is postmortem no matter how fast you are.)... That, with the fact he ran over people in the initial outbreak, left Shane to die, and all of his other cowardly acts...
My Lee can't trust him anymore, hell My Lee is starting to wonder if the REAL reason Kenny smashed Larry's head in was because of him wanting to toss Duck out.