Commerce means civilization
Has this been realized? On the preview of the next episode there is a short clip with Clem and Lee on a train. Clem is asking about adults being mad.
At first I didn’t think about it, but I been reading ‘Atlas Shrugged’ so maybe that’s why it dawned on me but…
In order for that train to run someone has to be driving it. As simple as it may look not just anybody can hop in a train and drive it. In order for the train to move fuel has to be used, and goods must be being transported between one location and other.
So in other words money is moving that train. The train looked empty except for Clem and Lee, so it’s not like it’s a FEMA train. So I wonder then…does this mean there are pockets of civilization in which that train is going back and forth from. A railway system is complicated and expensive to maintain. It takes more than just one train conductor to make it work. That means a lot of people are alive, thriving and most importantly making commerce.
At first I didn’t think about it, but I been reading ‘Atlas Shrugged’ so maybe that’s why it dawned on me but…
In order for that train to run someone has to be driving it. As simple as it may look not just anybody can hop in a train and drive it. In order for the train to move fuel has to be used, and goods must be being transported between one location and other.
So in other words money is moving that train. The train looked empty except for Clem and Lee, so it’s not like it’s a FEMA train. So I wonder then…does this mean there are pockets of civilization in which that train is going back and forth from. A railway system is complicated and expensive to maintain. It takes more than just one train conductor to make it work. That means a lot of people are alive, thriving and most importantly making commerce.
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Comments
Yep,I thought that too. But Since I don't know the type of train (engine) I can't guess at the fuel type.
But like I'm saying running a train is a specific skill set. We have to assume that who ever is running it survived throughout the outbreak.
Also, what about junctions and track switches. How is the train going back and forth? Are they using a train yard? All this requires alot of people working as one. And we know the only motivation for anything is money. So alot of money is being made to get all these things working. 4 months after a outbreak to have to train running seems like a miracle. Since one would expect that the people with the "know how" would either scatter or be zombies 4 months in.
And this is the first sign of this post going no where. Terrible, terrible book.
I'm sorry? What?
1. Its already stated that the group has plenty of fuel. That was the soul reason the St. Johns even started the trade. For fuel!
2. Trains normally are used for goods yes, but... its kind of a zombie apocolypse, and trains are a really good protection from them while at the same time moving people from place to place. No goods at all needed.
False. More like they had fuel on them, so they used the train. It isn't hard to believe the conductor of the train is a survivor just hiding out in the train.
Zombie Apocalypses tend to lower the population I've heard.
A possibility. Or the train is so big the group could have separate sections of it and are using the train to find a new home.
Its not expensive when the world has ended an everything goes.
And it takes more than 3 people to maintain such a giant farm. AKA "Video game logic" applies here more than anything.
A lot of people ARE alive as the comics show, but none of them are ever worried about currency or anything of the sort, they are worried about... staying alive and not being murdered!
sounds about right.
But I still wanna stress that this thing has to be bigger than just one community, because other wise who are they trading with? There has to be another community (at least one other one) on the other end of the line somewhere.
Sir, do you realize that you are a fool? That's all I'm going to say about your intelligence less the german comes round.
I'm not here to defend Ayn Rand, but let me ask. Have you even read the (entire) book? How can you be critical of something you have not seen (or read) for yourself?
Anyway, I brought up the book only to say it got me thinking about trains.
Lets go through your rebuttal:
First of all my naive friend trains don't run on the same fuel that cars do. Modern trains run on either diesel fuel or electricity. It is assumed that the group has lots of fuel to run a car, that's why they could run the generator. (assuming the generator was gas as it was small and crummy so that is likely) So in either case, especially electric, some sort of advanced pocket of civilization still thrives.
Second, you mention trains being used for protection. However, who has the money (diesel fuel, electricity, maintenance, parts) to run the train up and down the track. For four months? And to that end one cannot just drive a car around and around and expect it not to break down need fuel or a tire here or there, so why can a train just be run the same way at no cost.
It is hard to believe that one man is running the train. He cant switch tracks he can't clear debris that their might be. How does he know where he is going? How does he know the track is in tact? So can he only go forward and not backward. Where does he get fuel, and is he making repairs all by himself. Assuming the train is running on diesel he has to be getting it from somewhere. If you had read the book you would know that running a train is complex.
I mention FEMA train to say that Clem and Lee are not being forced or deported. I mention it is empty to say they have more than likely hopped a train in motion. If it was full it might be government train hence FEMA
You allow that there are pockets, you say that maybe they have the train sectioned off, looking for a new home. Okay, so you agree that there has to be at least one pocket of civilization, but again all the things it takes to run a train system it is less likely to be a group of travels and more likely to be a group of people trying to get civilization back on its feet. My friend, do you not know that commerce is how civilizations start?
You claim its not expensive, but what about the fuel and parts. Where will that be gotten? It may not be paid for in dollars but it has to at least be bartered, or taken. It is expensive in time and labour as well.
A farm is different from a train, as it is stationary and with the fence it was a whole lot easier. The farm was more or less self sufficient with the wood, and the animal and a generator. The supplies needed to run a house and the supplies needed to run a train are very different naive one.
And finally, yes in the comics lots of people are alive, and no they don't speak of money because they have not gotten that far in society. things are not that stable. But if a group is big enough and stable enough to run a train system I am sure they have worried about money. Any group would want to return back to "normal" and commerce is the first sign of normal.
What did George Bush say after 9/11. "Go out and stimulate the economy."
Y u know nothing?
money is no longer relevant it is a barter system....
Thats what im thinking barter system if there is two communitys involved thats what the train is most likely used for.
You know...that crossed my mind. But those things are so old. I mean this is modern day right? It would be something else to find a steam engine now a days. I just can't see it. Especially in America. That's like finding a horse and buggy. LOL.
Okay, maybe not that bad. But steam engine would explain a lot. And it would allow for a smaller group of people to run it.
and yeah I agree I think it would have to be something like a barter system. Or maybe they have made their own version of currency.
Good points. I like that.
Lets see what we can piece together. Maybe solve the mystery of the train.
The train yard and fuel is logical, so we can say someone came upon a train yard, has all the supplies needed to at least run a train. The train could push cars out the way. The conductor would have to go at a slow speed through as not to ram into anything that would potentially knock the train off track. The only thing with that is, what about other trains on the track?
True, so a train does not break down every 4 months. But the train has been active for longer, and chances are with some heavy duty pushing and the constant stop and go to clear the tracks I think it would need some looking after.
I did not know about the battery back up for the train system. That's logical, and since we don't know how long the battery lasts we can say 4 months in is okay for it to still work.
Don't know that I agree that most folks could get a train going, but I see your point.
So now...the big question. Where are they going?
But I guess if we knew that, it wouldn't be fun trying to figure it out. Thanks a lot for those points.
I haven't edited Chesire's post up there because I'm too lazy. I'd be thankful if Gman ignored the insults though. Rest assured, that cat and I will have a one on one talk about netiquette if need be. American style, as he seems to be so perpetually baffled that I'm German.
I stopped reading after "fool" so you don't need to worry about that.
The German said that I have to play nice with all the people in his community, even the ones that um...are not very swift in thought and reasoning.
I'm sorry for naming your cognitive capabilities Gman. It's really not place to insult you, even if you don't know what you are talking about.
I am sorry Gman5852.
Yeah, I did notice the "extra".
Cool it in here. Thanks.
But continue, please. Nothing as intellectually stimulating as railway history from the steam locomotive to the Zombie-powered Air Rail (ZAR).
GODAWFUL apology. Let's talk about social capabilities and maybe the responsibility horizon of a kindergartener, while we're so nicely insulting each other?
Yeah that was hot though right? Kid came at me all out of left field and I was like...yo pump the brakes son! And then gave him one extra!
LOL. Thanks for not locking the thread.
Thanks to our chat I apologized to the offended party and I promise not to make... people feel bad.
I think that grabbing a train would be a pretty safe bet in order to leap great distances in the months following an apocalypse. For a start these diesel jobs carry an immense amount of fuel - and we know for sure it's diesel as that's what's on the cover screen for episode 3 Long Road Ahead... with Lee at the helm bouncing a walker off the tracks. Diesel engines are simple low maintenance lumps and I'm pretty damn sure I'd be able to get one started if I had to.
One would think that by this time all other rail traffic would have stopped or crashed by now so the only other moving hazard should be other survivors coming the other way - so only travel by day and with a spotter posted out front. And only travel at a speed where stopping is easy.
The worst thing would be the risk of large obstructions - say a passenger train taken over by the infected takes a corner too fast and flips and over block all the tracks, unless a crane is nearby you are pretty much screwed.
Another possible scenario would be risk from ambushes set up by bandits/raiders but as the rail traffic would be so extremely light the chances of this are slim.
The points system is the real killer. Ok it wouldn't be too hard to run a set of wrong points, reverse, switch the points manually and carry on but the biggest factor is knowing where you are going. Holding course might be obvious on more rural lines but once you hit a big station it would become almost impossible to navigate all the possibilities without a plan or a map - it could take days. And I don't think that a well timed appearance of a random rail worker would solve it either.
Hey at least it gets you closer to where you are going.
Yeah, but where to go? Okay so we know that the train is diesel and not steam. And the train is a juggernaut on the tracks. Fuel to last a while. Sounds like a rolling fortress to me.
I can't wait to see who runs the train.
You are right, getting near big stations and train yards will be a problem if one doesn't have a map.
But it just doesn't fit...its just seems to 'easy' ya know? The people running the train need to eat and what not. It just seems like its more logical for it to be a "road of trade" between two points and just travels back and forth. Besides all that noise crashing into stuff would attract walkers...not that it matters. Guess it would be great fun to run a few over with a train.
And maybe going back and forth over the same line would attract bandits, even if it is a train, no one wants an ambush.
Any place is better than here huh? So I think we have figured out that the train is not going anywhere near big cities. For one you need a map and for two the odds of running into a stalled train is greater. So that tells me that the person driving the train knows where they are going, or at least knows where they don't want to be.
The manual switches I understand but, don't you have to know where the switches are well in advance to be able to stop a train in time to pull the switch. Let's move on from the past.
Okay. No one may be qualified to call your bluff, but Atlas Shrugged has about as much to do with modern trains as does "The Polar Express". Just because she ran the train business in the PAST does not make you an expert on trains. Hell, I played Resident Evil 3, which worked in a bunch of trains that you could make use of by pulling on a lever. Does that mean that in order for trains to work, you need a metropolitan zombie apocalypse, an assault rifle and a godmoding BOW chasing you?
No, a train simply requires fuel and a conductor to run, as you avoided proving in your original post. The rest of your post is false conjecture and "holy shit, I read a book that's 1000 pages of the author telling me how to think".
If there are any survivors of the original crew or someone - like DOUG - who is capable of learning new things, then anyone could power the train themselves. Doing so would be a major plus in the zombie wasteland where fuel is scarce and returning power to the station is easier than drilling for more oil. (I'm assuming it's like the electrical trolleys here. It could be coal. You nor I can have this argument.)
You don't have a single valid point in your original post. The rest of the thread just gets worse.
Ahh but you don't need people to run the trains in this situation. A diesel train carries it's own fuel and generates it's own locomotion. You hop on, turn the key (figuratively speaking) and off you go. In a non-apocalyptic society you do have people to run them - you need maintenance and logistics and that's before you even staff the day to day running of the stations. Here you just use it and dump it.
Where are they going? Maybe the plot only requires them to travel a shot distance to achieve some goal, perhaps it's a bit more permanent.
I understand that the game is set in a real location (not being from the US I don't know where - I've heard names but they mean little to me). If it were me, I head to as remote a place as possible which can sustain life. An island for example would be good - ok Dawn of the Dead didn't do this theory any favours but let's face it they were mostly all a**holes with a poor grasp of the situation.
Yep I'd head for the coast. I don't know if it would be possible for Lee's crew to get from their current location directly to the coast avoiding major cities but it really is better than waiting around in a stupid Motel. Even if you don't find an island you could clear out a supply ship or something, secure it (er... lift up the gangplank
*Of course staying in groups is bad too now... as sooner or later someone is bound to die, by whatever means - not just by being bitten. And that's bad news for any group.
It wouldn't be too much grief if you mistakenly went through a set of points that sent you in the wrong direction, all you do is back up and switch them then head on again.
Yipe!! I get to try out my new “Let people talk smack but don’t talk smack back.” Policy.
I never said I am an expert on trains. But since it seems like you know something about the book then you know why reading the book made me think of trains. Again as I said to another member. I don’t defend Rand, I’m simply saying where I got the idea to think of the train system. I hope I made my self clear in a nice and pleasant fashion.
Lets move on.. I maintain that the rest of my post in not “conjucture” as evidence of the other conversations and the german allowing the thread to run. If the thread had nothing to offer it would have closed. Funny that you and the other bloke are the only ones saying the thread is worthless but you post in it, contribute to the topic a little and pepper me with snark all at the same time. Very talented. I brag to no one that I read a book. You seem to be upset with Rand, I’m sorry you can’t take that up with her. Either that or you are intimidated that I can read, and mentioned a book with a philosophy that you don’t like. I’m sorry I offended you.
But back to the meat and potatoes that didn’t involve being snide.
True a train to run on track only needs fuel and an operator. But trying to guess the plot needs more detail than that. We are trying to figure out where the train is going how it got started and other fun stuff. I am sorry that you don’t like the book and my ideas. I am sorry that you are so offended you had to insult me. I am so sorry.
In regards to your last paragraph someone else mentioned that the train is diesel, they saw a picture in one of the future episodes. I think had you read this thread you would have found answers…oh dang I forgot this thread is a bad thread because of Rand and my offending you. But if you care to know some of the things you mentioned have be brought up by other folks. Check it out.
It is indeed entirely plausible that certain facets of infrastructure may be kept in tact. An example of this are the roads built by the Roman Empire that are still in use all over Europe, despite having been built thousands of years ago. Humans are clever creatures and will endeavor to "salvage" what they can from what came before them. Also, it's only been a few months since the apocalypse began, this could very well be the last vestiges of people trying to "retain" what knowledge and technology we have left (there are numerous advantages to having long-distance transit, even after the world has ended!).
That said, I don't think it would have anything to do with "money". Paper currency would be useless. It's more likely it works on either a barter system (trading transportation/safety for fuel, food, whatever else they may need), or on the complete charity of strangers ("Hey, we got this train operational, you want to catch a ride with us?).
Naturally, all of this depends upon whether the train is being operated as more than a "one-time" deal (i.e., if they are making even short runs between destinations and back). It's entirely possible that someone has "claimed" the train and decides to try to run it, and is successful (maybe it's even Lee, and getting the train functional will be a puzzle akin to getting the radio to work in episode one, trololol!).
Here you go - taken with my phone.
I like it all actually. Yeah, I think we agreed that paper money is out the question. Barter system. I'm thinking maybe you are right, maybe it was just a one time deal the train is running. I see what you are saying about Lee getting it to work, but I was just thinking since he seems to be in a box car that he just hitched a ride. But yes, maybe it was just a one time ride. That changes everything. Funny you are the first to mention it, that shatters my theory, funny you did it without snark.
So lets say though that the train trip is not a one time deal. Lets say that the train is being run as a continual thing so that things can be "normal". That's pretty exciting for the series. Realistic to me in many regards. Folks trying to get society back up and running.
I think the whole train thing is pretty original. I've seen plenty of ZA movies where the group is moving across great distances on foot (how crazy is that?) or in poor condition or lightly up-armored vehicles (that does not seem to go well either). A train could be a very safe way to travel cross-crountry...but travel to where?
I like the commerce idea. Sort of gives one the feeling that things are getting better and back to normal. Unfortunately, this is not a routine ZA with a happy ending. This is a walking dead ZA.
More likely, another group was sheltering in place at a train depot just like Lee's group did at the motel. Now that it looks like this ZA is not going to just blow over they too are looking for a long term safe location. All that's missing is the next hair-brained idea...enter Lee with a hair-brained idea...but where to go.
I hear Nebraska is nice this time of year.
Id hope money would become irrelevant when z day happened, it's one of the advantages of a zombie apocalypse everyone is given an equal chance of survival, no buying your way out of this one biatch! Na but everyone always forgets who is running the nuclear stations, the sewers, the water, gas and electricity, all this needs constant maintainence to prevent disasters and I'm pretty sure when the zombies came no one wanted to stay behind and keep working, so either way anyone even near a nuclear power station after a few days/weeks is real dead,either from the intial blast or radiation. Combine that with all the others, and you have one bad day to be Alive. the biggest worry is disease (from sewage) and radiation.
A perfect post, I couldnt put it better myself hahaha
I'm not even certain you can get a modern train to go anywhere without constant communication with a manned headquarters somewhere else in the country. These security measures are incredibly tight for good reason.
It'll be interesting to see what Telltale will pick up for a "realistic" portrayal, but eventually, TWD is a drama/action series, not a documentary. Actual train operators will undoubtedly have a sad.
I'm all for a bit of "suspension of disbelief" on this matter.:)
I think you may be right about passenger trains but I have a feeling that less complicated vehicles are in use too.
I used to work for a company that treated and disposed of hazardous waste. We once had a contract to remove asbestos from electrical boxes on the side of the track. There were other maintenance teams present and the line closest to us was closed off to traffic. We had a diesel locomotive shadowing us which was left running most of the time (I believe that this may have been to charge electrical energy for the main drive) but sometimes it was switched off. It seemed to me that the driver could just jump into the cab, start it up and shunt it up and down the track as and when he decided.
Of course different countries could have different systems for conveying rolling stock.
I'm going to stick with the theory that Lee and his group have found a working tractor unit and have either had help getting it started or have hotwired it.
I have a mechanical background and am pretty sure I could easily get one running. Who wants to be in my group come the ZA?
You actually need keys, you need to blow off water that collects in the engine before you start it(otherwhise it could/would tear the pistons apart), the electric motors have to be connected and charged (they apply the actual force to the wheels, the Diesel motor "only" charges them)there are failsafe systems that have to be operated to make sure the conductor is paying attention or the train would autobreak, and so on and on. I was quite surprised actually. Even breaking doesn't seem to be THAT easy.
And my last but definitely strongest concern is fuel. A train will consume from around 15 liters per hour to 750 lph (says the almighty internet), depending on engine speed (engine rpm not driving speed), which would take a massive reserve to have, if you would want to run it on a regular route. Also, how would you pump the stocked Diesel into the train tank? Fuel pumps for that kind of task are highly powered devices, safeguarded by at least 32A CEE power current. Don't expect to link a geni or two on them and make it work.
Article about Diesel locomotives
http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/engines-equipment/diesel-locomotive10.htm
YouTube (loooong) film about an old Diesel locomotive (skipped through it, still interesting).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7d7t_4dZko&feature
Still, 1900 liters of Diesel would last for approximately 120 - 240 hours of the train running, depending on usage. After that, farm 1 would have run dry completely. How many farms are in the vicinity of the rails, and how many bullets can you afford to spend on farming Diesel?
Yep I worked in a garage and we had barrels (not cans) of both diesel and petrol which could be quite quickly emptied just using a hand crank pump.
I'm given to believe that there are monstrously long cargo trains in the US which cover long distances virtually nonstop - presumably these would carry a lot of fuel (which if decoupled from all it's trucks would go even further).
8bit you've raised some valid points... but just say you got lucky.
You find a fuelled up locomotive, you don't need keys as they've either been left in it by a fleeing operative or as I've said before you know how to hotwire a vehicle, perhaps there is no condensate in your pistons (quite likely actually) besides you loose compression or blow a cylinder in an apocalypse, hey who cares? - you just keep going until the whole lump stops.... then you find another one. You can't get it to run because you haven't engaged the electric motors etc, hey given enough time and a process of elimination flipping some switches, we get to run - besides when we find our train all the switches are pre flipped for us by our fleeing operative who hastily jumped out thus engaging the safety features. I think most people know about the dead-man's handle etc.
The locomotive outlined in 8bit's synopsis is a modern high-tech example, the one we luckily discover is much more of an industrial tractor unit... and lucky for us it's one of those long distance jobs too.
Of course operating such machinery is out with the capabilities of most people but equally there are people out the who could manage it... eventually.