There is no compassion in letting a person commit suicide. That was my reasoning behind not giving the gun, I wanted to shot her myself. I think no person deserves to die by their own hands. Even if you're fully broke and your self-preservation instinct is gone, you still have to break yourself even further to do that. That's no way to end a life.
Sadly, there is no choice for Lee to shoot Irene himself. If you don't give her the gun, she just takes it away and, well, does it anyway. And I didn't want to do that.
If you know that your death (and subsequent reanimation) is going to result in the death of other innocent people, unless you take your own life, is it really suicide in the conventional sense? I think a zombie apocalypse would pretty much rewrite the rules.
As for shooting or being shot, I think I'd rather do it myself when I'm ready, than have someone "jump the gun".
I was wondering why such a high % refused to let Irene have the gun and take her own life, knowing what was ahead for her.
Most interested in the ideas/opinions of those who refused to give her the gun, but all input welcome, as it should be.
Discuss and explain.
To me in my first play through, it was a given, I gave her the gun, and I tried to console her. I know there was no chance for her, and I wanted to give her an easy way out.
What really stinks is that we really COULD have used that bullet Irene killed herself with. If Carley had had just ONE more bullet in the drug store (the one Irene used on herself), she might have been able to shoot the zombie grabbing her ankle, while Lee went to save Doug. Then we would have had both of them with us!
But I guess someone in the group had to die, in order to forge a closer bond between Lee and the one he saved (from a writing point of view, at least). Plus I'm probably over-analyzing the whole situation.
Wow, I wish that was brought up in the game. If Lee realized the bullet needed to save Carley was used on Irene, I think he or Doug would have something to say about it.
Allowing her to kill herself sends the group the wrong message
It tells everyone to give up and that there is no hope
Also guns are loud, zombies are scary, bullets are valuable and I do not kill
This scene made me think of the movie The Mist. I still gave her the gun.
that film is an example i would use to explain why no matter what happens, i would never kill myself, however given the right circumstances (not depression) i think people have the right to take their own lives
During an apocalypse where the dead come back to try to eat you i think you should put the 'killing yourself is wrong' mentality to the side.
I gave her the gun without hesitation.
If I were in the situation where I knew that getting bit meant I turned into one of them and killed people I would want to die BEFORE I turned into one of them.
If you weren't bitten and just wanted to end your life because you 'didn't want to deal with it' then I would have a different reaction.
"Sorry, I won't let you shoot yourself, but I can give you this lovely toothpick to kill yourself with. Good luck sorting out the details."
"Sorry I won't let you shoot yourself, but I will punch you directly in the face, it may take a few tries, but once I get the right angle, the broken shards of your nose should be shoved up into your brain and kill you."
"Sorry I won't let you shoot yourself, but I will punch you directly in the face, it may take a few tries, but once I get the right angle, the broken shards of your nose should be shoved up into your brain and kill you."
I believe the key word was "compassion", as in a desire to elevate distress, not inflict it.
I didn't let her have the gun because I tried to play it how I would react if it all of a sudden started up. I wouldn't know that there isn't a cure. Hell, I barely even knew that a bite makes you turn. I also wouldn't be desensitized to killing to way the characters are in later episodes. Everything is still fresh, and stunning, and difficult. It's not so simple to say "it's putting her out of her misery" because I still fear death as a person in a normal world would, not seeing death as a relief to misery.
She expressed Christian views and a desire to not kill others; I don't think there was really need to worry that she would turn the gun on Lee or his companions.
I do see worrying that the gun shot would attract more walkers, though.
I've both killed and not killed her while playing... personally, I think if someone who is begging to die because there is little to no chance they can recover from whatever ailment befalls them, it is the right thing to do to honor their wishes. And you could see by her face that she was close to death already.
As for Glenn - the apocalypse had just started; he probably would have had a different or less nasty view of Lee's actions had it been known for sure there was pretty much no cure or doctors to help.
She expressed Christian views and a desire to not kill others; I don't think there was really need to worry that she would turn the gun on Lee or his companions.
I don't see how religion comes into it, at least not in the way you're saying. This being the southern US, most of the characters in the game would probably identify as Christian, good or bad. And her dialogue seemed to be more about a fear of becoming a walker ("they're... Satanic") than specifically a fear of hurting others. (I mean, she would be hurting people more by shooting herself than by locking herself back up where she was. The loud noises would draw more walkers and make it harder for them to get out safely, and at this point there aren't many other survivors in Macon to worry about hurting...)
I refused to give her the gun because she was clearly unstable. Even on my first playthrough I got the impression that Irene was one harebrained "epiphany" from turning her suicide attempt into a murder-suicide. After all, if the walkers are Satanic monsters, and nobody has a real chance of surviving them, she would be doing us a favor by killing us before she did herself in. (On my second playthrough, the similarities between Irene and Jolene didn't do much to assuage that feeling.) I was expecting to have Lee take the shot himself, so I was surprised when he took my refusal as a moral stand against euthanasia.
I don't think I lacked compassion when I spared her life. Ideally, the survivors could have believed there was still a chance to save her. It's the same way Rick in the comics tried to to save the lives of Allen and Dale. Even when Rick saw that amputation may not work from failing to save Allen, he still did it when the same thing happened to Dale and it saved his life.
To me it was clear there was no chance of her surviving, even if we did know to lop off her arm at that point. She already looked very, very sick, like she was already a zombie. I think she was holed up in that hotel room for quite awhile after her boyfriend (presumably) bit her. I was half-afraid she would turn while we were arguing about what to do with her.
Keep in mind we as players know there's no cure. However, some of us like to play "in character" which means we don't know if there's a cure or not. So I decided that not giving her a gun was a realistic thing for Lee to do.
Keep in mind we as players know there's no cure. However, some of us like to play "in character" which means we don't know if there's a cure or not. So I decided that not giving her a gun was a realistic thing for Lee to do.
I thought this too, it makes more sense for the Lee character not to give her gun.
What really stinks is that we really COULD have used that bullet Irene killed herself with. If Carley had had just ONE more bullet in the drug store (the one Irene used on herself), she might have been able to shoot the zombie grabbing her ankle, while Lee went to save Doug. Then we would have had both of them with us!
But I guess someone in the group had to die, in order to forge a closer bond between Lee and the one he saved (from a writing point of view, at least). Plus I'm probably over-analyzing the whole situation.
Actually just before the pharmacy gets swarmed you can see Carley reloading her gun with a new clip from her purse, so she went into battle with a fully loaded gun.
All though that's an interesting observation. Maybe next season Telltale will play something like that up. Where if you use your bullets to mercy kill people you'll run out at a crucial moment.
This scene made me think of the movie The Mist. I still gave her the gun.
It reminded me more of that scene from the Dawn of the Dead remake where they find out someone is bitten. Except in this case it seemed like Irene had already gone through all that waiting with her boyfriend and didn't want to wait for her own number to be up.
That said, Telltale should make a game about the Mist. That story was all about human drama and people turning on each other. It'd be right up their alley.
I didn't even think about it. I gave her the gun as soon as I could.
I kept the fact that everybody is going to turn in a walker in the back of my head. I can totally imagine that you'd rather just die than be a walker.
At the time, barely a few days into this apocalypse, the characters have no idea how widespread this situation is. For all they know there could be a cure already, or in progress. What we as players know shouldn't have anything to do with it.
In that situation, Glenn is entirely correct in saying you can't give up. Maybe if it were later in the apocalypse where they knew what was going on, but that early? No.
I did not give her the gun because I didn't want to waste the bullet, I didn't want to attract walkers, and I because I did not trust her. She only uses the gun to kill herself, but a lot of other things could have happened.
1: She could have just used the gun to commit suicide and shot herself in the heart instead of the head. At this point in the game no one knows that all dead people come back unless the brain is destroyed. If she shot herself in the heart she could turn right there and attack us.
2: We might've needed the bullet later. We give her the gun and then later on at the pharmacy we need the extra bullet. Now a member of the group dies because we gave her the gun.
3: I can't remember if we actually see the bite, but if not she could have lied about being bitten. Glen comes banging on her door and tries to get her to come out, it scares her so she tells him to leave. Later on he returns with two friends and a gun this scares her even more. She lies about being bitten so she can get the gun and defend herself from these three strangers. We end up getting shot or losing a gun.
If you're bitten, killing yourself is the sane, moral and rational thing to do. The human survivors have a (granted, very small) improvement in their chances of survival. While you have some reasoning capacity left it is important to try to see the big picture. Irene did, in her own way.
At the time, barely a few days into this apocalypse, the characters have no idea how widespread this situation is. For all they know there could be a cure already, or in progress. What we as players know shouldn't have anything to do with it.
This may be so, but the game adapts to your choices so it's a very personal choice. I chose to use the extra knowledge I have of the Walking Dead world to make the choice to give the gun.
And yeah, it's early and I use the verb choice way to much.
This may be so, but the game adapts to your choices so it's a very personal choice. I chose to use the extra knowledge I have of the Walking Dead world to make the choice to give the gun.
And yeah, it's early and I use the verb choice way to much.
Choice is a noun. The verb is choose.
I did not give her the gun, because my Lee still thought there could be a cure. I am a roleplayer and I don't use meta-knowledge beforehand. There could have be a way to save her and he didn't want the blood at his hands.
Never give an unstable person a gun is my advice. That's why I held onto the gun.
Ditto. Like I said earlier in the thread, I kinda saw the choice as "do you want Lee to earn a Darwin Award? Yes/No"; my Lee said hell no.
I much would've preferred an option to mercy-kill her myself. That I possibly would've done. Giving us the option to shoot her ourselves also puts the choice in starker contrast, give her the gun or not; Lee's hands are still relatively clean in the whole affair.
At the time, barely a few days into this apocalypse, the characters have no idea how widespread this situation is. For all they know there could be a cure already, or in progress. What we as players know shouldn't have anything to do with it.
In that situation, Glenn is entirely correct in saying you can't give up. Maybe if it were later in the apocalypse where they knew what was going on, but that early? No.
We know that atleast Atlanta and likely Savannah have pretty much gone down the crapper right from the get-go (Atlanta from Shawn, Savannah from the answering machine at Clem's house). We see Macon itself; which is basically the midway point between those two cities. That's a pretty big clue right off the bat that the infection is atleast statewide.
Even if I thought there was a cure despite all of that, I know Irene's not going to live long enough to see it.
She was emotionally unstable because she knew she'd been bitten...If someone has been bitten and asks you to shoot them you do it, otherwisetheir last moments are thinking about being a danger to other people, knowing that they're letting themselves be turned into a monster, and a tremendous amount of bodily suffering...Not shooting them to conserve ammo is pretty monstrous and not shooting them because you still have irrational hope for them is not heroic or merciful...
Comments
Sadly, there is no choice for Lee to shoot Irene himself. If you don't give her the gun, she just takes it away and, well, does it anyway. And I didn't want to do that.
As for shooting or being shot, I think I'd rather do it myself when I'm ready, than have someone "jump the gun".
To me in my first play through, it was a given, I gave her the gun, and I tried to console her. I know there was no chance for her, and I wanted to give her an easy way out.
reason being i knew she had nothing else to do but put a bullet in her brain. why let her suffer and become a zombie.
Yea chopping humans is not as easy as lee shows us during ep 2. Besides it would be gruesome as hell you want to kill it/let it be not torture her.
But I guess someone in the group had to die, in order to forge a closer bond between Lee and the one he saved (from a writing point of view, at least). Plus I'm probably over-analyzing the whole situation.
It tells everyone to give up and that there is no hope
Also guns are loud, zombies are scary, bullets are valuable and I do not kill
that film is an example i would use to explain why no matter what happens, i would never kill myself, however given the right circumstances (not depression) i think people have the right to take their own lives
I gave her the gun without hesitation.
If I were in the situation where I knew that getting bit meant I turned into one of them and killed people I would want to die BEFORE I turned into one of them.
If you weren't bitten and just wanted to end your life because you 'didn't want to deal with it' then I would have a different reaction.
"Well, I won't let you shoot yourself, but I'll chop your head off with my axe.." Not the most compassionate way to go.
"Sorry I won't let you shoot yourself, but I will punch you directly in the face, it may take a few tries, but once I get the right angle, the broken shards of your nose should be shoved up into your brain and kill you."
I believe the key word was "compassion", as in a desire to elevate distress, not inflict it.
I wouldn't kill her then but maybe I would now...
I do see worrying that the gun shot would attract more walkers, though.
I've both killed and not killed her while playing... personally, I think if someone who is begging to die because there is little to no chance they can recover from whatever ailment befalls them, it is the right thing to do to honor their wishes. And you could see by her face that she was close to death already.
As for Glenn - the apocalypse had just started; he probably would have had a different or less nasty view of Lee's actions had it been known for sure there was pretty much no cure or doctors to help.
I don't see how religion comes into it, at least not in the way you're saying. This being the southern US, most of the characters in the game would probably identify as Christian, good or bad. And her dialogue seemed to be more about a fear of becoming a walker ("they're... Satanic") than specifically a fear of hurting others. (I mean, she would be hurting people more by shooting herself than by locking herself back up where she was. The loud noises would draw more walkers and make it harder for them to get out safely, and at this point there aren't many other survivors in Macon to worry about hurting...)
I refused to give her the gun because she was clearly unstable. Even on my first playthrough I got the impression that Irene was one harebrained "epiphany" from turning her suicide attempt into a murder-suicide. After all, if the walkers are Satanic monsters, and nobody has a real chance of surviving them, she would be doing us a favor by killing us before she did herself in. (On my second playthrough, the similarities between Irene and Jolene didn't do much to assuage that feeling.) I was expecting to have Lee take the shot himself, so I was surprised when he took my refusal as a moral stand against euthanasia.
To me it was clear there was no chance of her surviving, even if we did know to lop off her arm at that point. She already looked very, very sick, like she was already a zombie. I think she was holed up in that hotel room for quite awhile after her boyfriend (presumably) bit her. I was half-afraid she would turn while we were arguing about what to do with her.
Besides, I don’t believe in suicide.
Actually just before the pharmacy gets swarmed you can see Carley reloading her gun with a new clip from her purse, so she went into battle with a fully loaded gun.
All though that's an interesting observation. Maybe next season Telltale will play something like that up. Where if you use your bullets to mercy kill people you'll run out at a crucial moment.
It reminded me more of that scene from the Dawn of the Dead remake where they find out someone is bitten. Except in this case it seemed like Irene had already gone through all that waiting with her boyfriend and didn't want to wait for her own number to be up.
That said, Telltale should make a game about the Mist. That story was all about human drama and people turning on each other. It'd be right up their alley.
I kept the fact that everybody is going to turn in a walker in the back of my head. I can totally imagine that you'd rather just die than be a walker.
Fair enough...
Well there's another one for my regrets list
In that situation, Glenn is entirely correct in saying you can't give up. Maybe if it were later in the apocalypse where they knew what was going on, but that early? No.
1: She could have just used the gun to commit suicide and shot herself in the heart instead of the head. At this point in the game no one knows that all dead people come back unless the brain is destroyed. If she shot herself in the heart she could turn right there and attack us.
2: We might've needed the bullet later. We give her the gun and then later on at the pharmacy we need the extra bullet. Now a member of the group dies because we gave her the gun.
3: I can't remember if we actually see the bite, but if not she could have lied about being bitten. Glen comes banging on her door and tries to get her to come out, it scares her so she tells him to leave. Later on he returns with two friends and a gun this scares her even more. She lies about being bitten so she can get the gun and defend herself from these three strangers. We end up getting shot or losing a gun.
Would I give her a gun to end her life if she was someone I knew in real life? No. Same goes for the game, regardless of the reason.
When the time comes, that's a different story.
I gave her the gun.
Of course I do remember what happened in the movie, the Mist...
This may be so, but the game adapts to your choices so it's a very personal choice. I chose to use the extra knowledge I have of the Walking Dead world to make the choice to give the gun.
And yeah, it's early and I use the verb choice way to much.
Choice is a noun. The verb is choose.
I did not give her the gun, because my Lee still thought there could be a cure. I am a roleplayer and I don't use meta-knowledge beforehand. There could have be a way to save her and he didn't want the blood at his hands.
Ditto. Like I said earlier in the thread, I kinda saw the choice as "do you want Lee to earn a Darwin Award? Yes/No"; my Lee said hell no.
I much would've preferred an option to mercy-kill her myself. That I possibly would've done. Giving us the option to shoot her ourselves also puts the choice in starker contrast, give her the gun or not; Lee's hands are still relatively clean in the whole affair.
We know that atleast Atlanta and likely Savannah have pretty much gone down the crapper right from the get-go (Atlanta from Shawn, Savannah from the answering machine at Clem's house). We see Macon itself; which is basically the midway point between those two cities. That's a pretty big clue right off the bat that the infection is atleast statewide.
Even if I thought there was a cure despite all of that, I know Irene's not going to live long enough to see it.