Women Presented Unfairly in Games Story?
Katjaa is super passive, Carley can't figure out how to use batteries, Lilly is mental and stands by her crazy Dad until the end, and Clem verges on escapism.
Men have their faults, but do you think the the fairer sex is getting equal treatment by writers?
Men have their faults, but do you think the the fairer sex is getting equal treatment by writers?
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Ben is a garden gnome
Kenny is a weakling who's only motivation is his family
Larry is a drama queen
Duck is as dumb as a box of hammers
Lee is the player's avatar and thus exempt.
You need to be a transgender.
Then crap gets real.
Chuck tells Clem she's going to die then gives Lee advice, he has a point.
Christa question how smart it is to bring an 8 year old girl is an old, enclosed building, also sound advice, and suddenly she's queen bitch/Lilly 2.0 to most people.
Maybe it's some of the players, and not the writers, at work. IDK
I appreciated Christa's advice a bit more than Chucks... of course, I was unhappy with Chuck's deliver method.
"Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you serious with that shit?"
Lee:
"Yes."
Christa:
"Okay, just checking. That's a great idea."
I believe it's her delivery.
Chuck: YOU GONNA DIE LITTLE GIRL!!!
Clem: ;_; The old scary dude with the candy says I'm gonna die.
Lee: THE HELL OLD MAN?
Chuck: Chillax, dude, I was just trying to get your attention. Got any booze?
i actually agreed with everything christa said except staying alone, i thought it was stupid searching an abandoned building on your own, but there was no way of getting anybody to come with me, i thought she was strong and independent like Carley but bossy and she always think she is right like lilly.
i wasnt as mad as Lee when Chuck said Clementine would die, i just thought he lacked tact, then he told us to do two obviously good things and we could do them.
i think its more personal taste than anything, i didnt think lilly was a good leader and if i knew her in real life i wouldn't like her, and i dont think that i was forced into not liking her by the writers, i just didnt, but even though its way to soon to say i think i would like Christa in real life because she was concerned about Clementine and i think if i meet a group of survivors in the ZA and they had a child i would judge them by how they treated the child.
Lee is a convicted murderer regardless of how you chose his persona.
Kenny Keeps freezing under pressure and lost his entire family.
Ben makes stupid choices and needs to find a backbone, plenty of those laying around now.
Clem is a puzzle.
Chuck tells little girls they will die instead of just going directly to Lee
So yeah good group.
I think the women are being given a wider variety of personas compared to the men which make them stand out although it wouldn't hurt if it turned out Omid who is slightly passive when Christa's around likes doing the washing up and other unfair steriotypes
Why should the player avatar be exempt from scrutiny? I mean, as the player's alter ego, isn't he/she the most suspect character of them all?
And well, despite his frailty, Lee is the man. He gets the girls. He beats to death the men who try to steal them from him. Or at least is in the position to kill them. And when he doesn't get the girl, it's simply because the girls can't agree to share him nicely. The fact that all the other men are in some respect Nancy boys who can't handle tough situations only serves to undeline Lee's position as the only real man in the group.
Since the player's alter ego has no equals, the game regrettably works as a male ego pump. Even if it is less effective at that than your average fps game. Also, all the women seem to be at heart maternal caretakers or frightened little girls. They don't seem to have much existence beyond this role, Katjaa's suicide being the most obvious example.
Oddly, Kenny the family man just keeps on going. I suppose he lives for his work now.
Aside from Lee, most of the characters are one-dimensional. You get to "mold" Clem in a sense, so potentially she can become as complex as you. (note: You can make Lee one-dimensional by not varying your choices).
Doug is more a follower than a nerd. I think nerd implies independent thought.
Katjaa is a caretaker. It's her job, not just as a mother.
Kenny is a Dad foremost. There's no inner conflict about that.
Larry is a jackass.
Ben is immature (I don't mean that in the Beavis and Butthead sense)
Carley is supposed to be a tough survivor, but we don't see much of that unless someone needs to be shot.
Part of the problem is the limited format. A lot of gameplay time centers on character building Lee and Clem. To show everyone as complex characters we might need a 10 chapter game.
Because ultimately you decide how Lee acts/reacts to situations.
A Jerk?
An honest man?
A silent tool?
So it's far more subjective.
Yeah, enforcing gender stereotypes in the zombie apocalypse is what the TV show is for.
You use dominant traits for Lilly and Katjaa, yet for Carley you use something as minor as Carley not knowing what batteries are to show unfair gender treatment?
>Clem verges on escapism.
So does Duck, in fact he does it to a far greater extent. He treats something as severe as medicinal theft like a Batman/Robin detective case. He constantly shrugs off his surroundings, Clem never does this and instead just likes to focus on positive things while not completely ignoring the situation at hand, an arguably good trait to have in such a time. And she's a child, a group often associated with escapism.
So no, women aren't at all "unfairly represented" in this video game, not even close, in fact this game represents various personalities very well.
People need to stop calling "unfair representation" and "sexism" at everything.
The tendency to glorify the player just reinforces the fact that women in this game are subordinate to men. With maybe the exception of psycho-cannibal Brenda. But she's more of a cautionary example than a positive one. When able to handle themselves in violent situations, women seem to yield in social conflicts. Among other obvious "benefits", I suppose female vulnerability also helps to impart more worth to the otherwise inferior male npcs.
I'm disappointed that the game is becoming more and more fixated on this as the story progresses. Introducing into the story yet another pervert out to get Clem being the most annoying twist. With Lee and Clem starting to work as a duo and the world the way it is, she's in enough danger as it is. No need to add another asshole especially out to get her. Besides, the game has already had too many additional "dammsell in distress" -plotlines.
My only hope at this point is that Christa fails to conform to the mommy role entirely and somehow manages to elude the punishment due to her for mothering grown up men. But I'm guessing they'll rather just opt to comfort players scared by her by having a zombie child gnaw its way out of her womb.
Carley's difficulties with the radio and her overall girly nature were enough to squeeze her into the helpless girl stereotype for me. Not that it made her more unrealistic. People act stereotypically all the time, but there is enough of stereotypical behavior of this kind in games already.
You see. It just doesn't make sense if you think of it as a case of simple theft of supplies. Lilly's outburst wasn't about those stolen goods. It was all about Carley stealing Lee from her.
I actually like the female characters a lot because I feel overall they are deeper than most game characters. They are not just bimbos or cold killers or skanks. They all have shortcomings of course, but I wouldn't say anything overly sexist.
Katjaa is a mother and a wife. She is a grounding core for the group. You can't have everyone be tough or dominant because then there is no balance. Sometimes a gentle character is needed for levity and believability. It doesn't make her passive in a negative way I say.
I see the battery thing as a mistake by the designers to make a puzzle section. However, it also came across as just a lapse of judgment during stress. How many of us have failed doing simple things when distracted? Either way, the fact she does not have any other notable flaws and that they joke about the batteries thing in later episodes does not strike me as an intentional judgment of character. Plus she is probavly the most morally upright of the group. I honestly think Carley is one of the strongest female characters to come out of gaming in a while.
Lilly just saw the one person left in her life be crushed by a salt lock. Of course that will do a number on her mental health. And crazy dad? Yes Larry's a jerk, but his motivations were made quite clear even in the first episode that he acts to protect his daughter. I don't see her being weak for it. I see her being human. She attempted to take all of the responsibility herself but it was more than she could handle. It's not gender specific to break under pressure.
Clem's a little girl. She's not going to automatically process all the terribl stuff that happens in life and accept it. She's at an innocent age and sometimes kids handle problems with escapism. Adults do that all the time too, both men and women. What better way to avoid stress than to imagine your own little world? I see that as being a trait for being a child, not a girl. Plus, Duck is way more escapist than her.
Here's another important fact! How many of these women are being sexualized in the game? One of my biggest complaints Is games exploiting women with scantily clad clothes, large breasts with massive cleavage and softcore porn posing/camerawork. The only thing close here is Lilly's initial appearance and even then it never struck me as trying to exploit her body. Carley, Katjaa and Christa are always modestly dressed and Carley got even more so as they put more layers on her. They treated these women as characters instead of beauty objects. We care more for their character than how attractive they are. That's something few games do anymore and I totally applaud that!
I totally agree that there is plenty of sexism in gaming, but be careful what you label as sexist. We like to pinpoint stuff as such, but sometimes we have to step back and look at what we are saying. Some things are not gender specific so we need to not overreact when we assume one or the other when a game is not trying to be such. I've honestly felt TWD is a great example of fair women characters and I hope they keep it up.
I didn't see enough evidence in my Carley playthrough that Lily thought anything of Lee other than a potential ally/leader. She spent most of the time shouting at him. It's possible, though.
There isn't much in the game that leads us to believe that Carley has any interest in Lee until she's about to get shot in the dome. I mean, I was pretty sure that's where they were going with her, but they were timid because of the race issue. In my playthrough at least, there's no real evidence to show either character had any feelings for her until that moment in Ep 3. If they really meant for us to feel her loss they bungled it.
Ultimately, Lily is a canon character and they had to get her to Woodbury on time. All else is in service of such.
Doug's a technological wizard, but he can't hold his own in a fight. Carley's great with a gun, but she can't figure out a tv remote.
Carley uses her brain in a fight.
Doug has brief moments of gut-reflex heroism, that may or may not get him killed.
I wouldn't say they bungled it or that it wasn't present. It just wasn't outwardly manifested until 3. Episode 2 we see them have a chance to develop a companionship with each other through their conversations. It doesn't have to lead to romance, but it did imply there could be a deeper connection. The way they inflected, the way Carley phrases certain thoughts, etc. it isn't unreasonable to have seen a romance developing should you choose to pursue it.
Plus, it was only the start of a romance. That was only the intial stage of anything possibly happening. If she lived longer, I'm sure it could have developed further. Ending prematurely is shocking, but that's why I feel the moment is so powerful. You felt like you were attached to her if you tried to spark something. It was the smart thing to do to keep it TWD, if not the most popular.
I think that's why I don't like them as much. They are such specific opposites of each other that it feels like they lack depth. Christa is just a judgmental surly character and Omid is a happy but bumbling scrapper. It feels like there is not a whole lot else to them yet.
Omid seems passive, and more "group oriented." (look at how quickly he wanted to join up and how easy it was to get him to use the torch)
Add critical and aggressive to that description and that's kinda why she comes off Lilly 2.0 for me, but maybe she'll evolve in the limited amount of time she has.
All of the characters are somewhat flawed irregardless of gender.
Absolutely!
Carley was the best shot in the game, Katjaa's doctor skills were exactly what completed the team. Lilly was the kind of leader figure the team needed (before her father was offed) AND probably the second best shot; and if it wasn't for her "two are a team" dogma, Christa would have been the next leader of the group immediately before Kenny or Lee could have said "I volunteer".
Take a look at the men for comparison. Kenny is a fisherman and he almost copes as badly with the situation as Lilly did, plus egomania! Lee's a convict teacher. Doug is an electronics ace in a world without electricity (granted, his handicraft was also very useful). Ben is a highschooler with an identity crisis who doesn't even know where to place his loyalty. Omid is completely helpless without his wife. Larry is a social misfit whom about everyone in here wanted to off even before Duck. And Duck... was even more kid than Clementine.
Clementine's story is about the loss of innocence - and Lee's attempts to preserve it as much as he can. But her traits are presented as those of a child. The fact that she's female is, as much as this hurts the tree house club, pretty irrelevant to what is happening.
Seriously, I'd say we're good with the women treatment.
Totally agree. Putting it that way, the men are more tragically flawed then the women here. Most of the women at least have practical skills for survival as a profession or trained skill. A vet with medical skills for people, a reporter trained with pistols, a military employee with leadership skills, etc. I'd say it is fair.
Nah, they only had to show each character's proficiencies, they didn't need to show the other's shortcomings by contrast. Did they ever show Doug shooting at some target and missing?
Ben is Guybrush Threepwood's son.
I felt like she was a man with breasts.
Aww, did she scare you? Poor kitty.
If it happened to me I would have snapped too, just I would have probably shot Kenny... not to mention clementine is ten times smarter than duck and more resourceful, and duck practically tried to ignore everything that's happened whereas every few minutes you enter a conversation with clementine regarding the entire mess and whats going on, as for katjaa? she was the groups physician who was a Vet, for godsake that is such a important part of the group/story!
The only thing here I could even say you can complain about is carley with her batteries, but then I could also argue that its only human to not know everything, and with her working in a radio station or whatever, I could argue that shes just a journalist/or everyone just did the technical bits of the radio for her, just because the majority of the surviving survivors so far are men does not mean they are represented poorly.
As for the katjaa suicide, There are mothers who would do the exact same thing in her shoes, atleast she had the strength/decency to do it out of sight of Ben/Clementine
Lily is leading the group way before we enter the picture; and has no problem asserting herself.
Christa is wearing the pants in the C/O relationship
Katjaa has medical training...and a son to protect? Ya, why isnt she up on the front lines with an AK? She's so passive...
Ya, these girls are totally getting the typical 'boo hoo, please protect me' treatment. How sexist!
/sarcasm
imo most the characters are stereo types. found in most games, so this whole thread is pointless, there has to be a bitch(lilly/christa), black guy(lee) asians glenn/clem, katjaa meek/mouse but loyal, duck (idiot) omid (pedo/overly enthusiastic) kenny loyal but stupid and a coward, larry (pure asshole) ben young naive idiot, mark the politician works all sides and angles..carley ballsy reporter loks for the facts known to crumble under pressure/stress, doug a nerd/geek..
the game has to cover all the race barriers/personality and with a combo's for some.
if anything the characters are mostly fine, most games have male protagonists and thus all females are pale in comparison... in some cases a female lead does cause some male shrinkage..
as for clem and the tree house club, she's a kid put in an impossible situation, who may or may not be a 'spy' who is missing her family may or may not know what their fate is her being female means nothing in this thread as clem being a child losing her innocence 'mentally' would happen to any child in this scenario.. gender is as vain put it moot/invalid/irrelavant.
yet another 'rp' thread #sigh# i dunno if red panda is trying to get flame wars going or just being an old fashioned/last century based idiot....who seems to have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to sexism...
"GOD HAS SPOKEN" Kneel in awe or not we still live in a semi free country, I for one am kneeling:D
I think we need more Rick/Tyreese/Shane/Daryl characters.
Most of the male characters are just too passive. Kenny is a great character even though he's a coward.
As for Omid and Christa I like the opposition they represent. Omid is really friendly, group oriented and easy going, while Christa is toughen up survivor/leader type of girl. I just hope they don't die too fast.