I can agree with you on this. Ultimately, the kidnapper is to blame. It still doesn't mean she didn't do something incredibly stupid and defiant that had grave consequences.
It's like the buy that cried wolf. You can blame the wolf at the end of the day, and it deserves all the blame, but you'd be missing the moral of the story.
Actually nobody owes Clem anything. Nobody has to look out for her. Yeah, it's the right thing to do if they do it, but they are not obliged to.
I can see your point Red Panda, and I agree with it. It appears all our training were for nothing because she just does whatever she pleases. She did that the entire season. She's stubborn and yeah I know she's a kid, but as Chuck said, she has to grow up or she'll die. I hope Lee's death sticks with her through her entire life. She needs to know that her stupidity cost him his life and maybe that will be the reason why she won't be the next one to die.
It is really a shame that sometimes only a tragic event can allow us to see the truth that has been in front of our eyes all along. That's life, unfortunately.
If Clem wants to live, I hope she will learn her lesson now.
I think it realistic that Lee could be mad or upset with Clem for leaving the house, which in turn leads to him getting bitten.
Clem has had a bad habit of not listening when told to stay, climbing the ladder to follow Lee up to the Fuel truck, crawling through the doggie door, going outside to play on her own (even tough she discovered the boat) still, she's put herself and others at risk.
Now I realize, when talking to Lee inside the house, Lee upset her saying they really wont have time to look for her parents, that upset Clem, so after Lee fell asleep, Clem took the walkie and went searching on her own. Lee goes looking for her and as a result get's bitten.
Think about iif it were Ben's fault, or Kenny's that Lee gets bitten.. We would all be cussing them, swearing to kill them.. But because it's Clem, we accept Lee's been bitten, not really mad, just concerned for Clem..
I'm guessing in EP5, Lee will find and save Clem, but since Lee is bitten, will proably be some big sacrifice scene. I think Clem's dad is dead, but maybe they find her mother..
They are surrounded by walkers, Lee takes Clem and hands her up to her mother as Lee endures multiple bites.. Clem has a gun and shoots Lee in the end to put him down!
Thats how I see it.. Sure Lee 'could' be mad at Clem.. But he isnt.. He's too concerned for her safety and willing to risk/sacrifice himself for her!
Panda, duck could have died so fast for a multitude of reasons, childrens immune systems are weaker than adults, also, which could have affected it. (Doubt telltale was thinking that, but its true.)
It just really bums me out that the "Clem is leading you to your death" guy was kinda right... if Clem hadn't gotten taken and dropped the walkie talkie there, we wouldn't have gotten bitten... ;___;
I am working today but still thinking about all this and realize the more I think about Clem running off leading to Lee getting bitten, the more I want Clem to realize what she's done.
Mad at her? No, not really, but..
If possible I would make sure Lee explains to her the cost of her actions.
Lee: (as he's about to die/turn) Clemmypoo, I want you to take this as my final lesson to you! This world is now all about survival and you have to do anything you can to live.. But realize that you will need others to help you survive and just walking off like that can have dire consequences (shows her the bite).
Ive been honest with you from the start, taught you how to defend yourself and tried to explain the way of this new terrible world. You will have to be responsible for yourself and the others. Think before you act because what you do now, may affect everyone later.
Like Ben, he meant well, but his actions cost the lives of others.
You went to find your parents, I understand that, but because you took off and I had to search for you, has cost My life.
Take this as a lesson, it could save your life in the future!
Yes! Guilt trip she'll never forget, but will save her in the future!
Why is everyone reckoning she left the house willingly? She could have gone to the backyard and been taken while Lee's asleep. The walkie talkie voice could have told her: "I have your parents and I'm going to kill them if you don't do exactly as I say". Vernon could have taken her and then been taken himself. There are a lot of explanations and we have not been given any so far.
Here's the thing. Zombies are literally around every corner. Is it really Clem's fault just because she's the reason he went outside that time? It could have happened the next day when they took the boat out. It could have happened when he went out to take a leak. Or any of the other many, many times that Lee stepped out of that house.
I was once driving on the highway to visit my sister for her birthday and I got into a wreck that left me in a wheelchair for months. But I don't blame my sister for being the reason I was on the highway. I blame the person who hit me with a car. Just because Clem is the reason Lee went outside, doesn't mean she's the reason he got bit.
Here's the thing. Zombies are literally around every corner. Is it really Clem's fault just because she's the reason he went outside that time? It could have happened the next day when they took the boat out. It could have happened when he went out to take a leak. Or any of the other many, many times that Lee stepped out of that house.
I was once driving on the highway to visit my sister for her birthday and I got into a wreck that left me in a wheelchair for months. But I don't blame my sister for being the reason I was on the highway. I blame the person who hit me with a car. Just because Clem is the reason Lee went outside, doesn't mean she's the reason he got bit.
It...makes a wreck...out of...I got nuthin'.
Valid point, but as a last lesson from Lee to Clem, something as harsh as that may be the life-lesson she remembers in the future so she can survive!
Valid point, but as a last lesson from Lee to Clem, something as harsh as that may be the life-lesson she remembers in the future so she can survive!
Oh absolutely, I'm not saying she won't feel guilty. That sort of survivor's guilt happens whether it makes rational sense or not. I'm just saying that Lee should (and does, by the look of it) know better than to blame her for it.
Here's the thing. Zombies are literally around every corner. Is it really Clem's fault just because she's the reason he went outside that time? It could have happened the next day when they took the boat out. It could have happened when he went out to take a leak. Or any of the other many, many times that Lee stepped out of that house.
I was once driving on the highway to visit my sister for her birthday and I got into a wreck that left me in a wheelchair for months. But I don't blame my sister for being the reason I was on the highway. I blame the person who hit me with a car. Just because Clem is the reason Lee went outside, doesn't mean she's the reason he got bit.
Wow. Philosophy was my major in college if you want to go there. Look, it could have happened differently but it didn't. Let's no deviate from that fact.
If someone was dying of terminal cancer and could go anytime, and then some stranger shot them in head, would you think they should be punished? By your logic, they could have died any day, so how can they be held morally responsible? Of course you can b/c there's a difference between what could have happened and what did happen.
And there is a huge difference in asking someone to drive to you and having someone walk around a city filled with deadly monsters. Seriously.
If someone was dying of terminal cancer and could go anytime, and then some stranger shot them in head, would you think they should be punished? By your logic, they could have died any day, so how can they be held morally responsible? Of course you can b/c there's a difference between what could have happened and what did happen.
Nice try, but that's actually the opposite of my logic. Obviously they should be punished because that is exactly what I'm talking about - direct causation. Clementine is not directly responsible for Lee getting bitten. Kenny is the one who insisted they go to Savannah, is it his fault? Without him, Lee would never have been in that alley either. Just because someone caused something that is part of a sequence of events does not make them responsible for everything else that happens in that sequence of events.
Nice try, but that's actually the opposite of my logic. Obviously they should be punished because that is exactly what I'm talking about - direct causation. Clementine is not directly responsible for Lee getting bitten. Kenny is the one who insisted they go to Savannah, is it his fault? Without him, Lee would never have been in that alley either. Just because someone caused something that is part of a sequence of events does not make them responsible for everything else that happens in that sequence of events.
Clem didn't bite him but she put in harms way. With Kenny, there was a plan of escaping on a boat. There was risk, but necessary. With Clem, it was a unnecessary and needless risk. She was disobeyed and trying to save her was bitten. It is simple negligence.
Panda, duck could have died so fast for a multitude of reasons, childrens immune systems are weaker than adults, also, which could have affected it. (Doubt telltale was thinking that, but its true.)
OKay, after being bit,what is the longest you've know someone to function before becoming to sick? What is the longest you've known to survive? Give me a best case scenario based on some evidence. Point to a character in a comic or TV show.
Clem didn't bite him but she put in harms way. With Kenny, there was a plan of escaping on a boat. There was risk, but necessary. With Clem, it was a unnecessary and needless risk. She was disobeyed and trying to save her was bitten. It is simple negligence.
Everywhere is harms way. And as far as we know, all Clementine did was walk into the back yard. That's hardly reckless endangerment.
Actually nobody owes Clem anything. Nobody has to look out for her. Yeah, it's the right thing to do if they do it, but they are not obliged to.
I can see your point Red Panda, and I agree with it. It appears all our training were for nothing because she just does whatever she pleases. She did that the entire season. She's stubborn and yeah I know she's a kid, but as Chuck said, she has to grow up or she'll die. I hope Lee's death sticks with her through her entire life. She needs to know that her stupidity cost him his life and maybe that will be the reason why she won't be the next one to die.
It is really a shame that sometimes only a tragic event can allow us to see the truth that has been in front of our eyes all along. That's life, unfortunately.
If Clem wants to live, I hope she will learn her lesson now.
Can't believe it but I agree with Yami It was a dumbass thing for her to have done and I AM pissed off about it. Mostly it was up to Telltale to make her disregard everything Lee said even though he's forced by the game to be taking care of her...that's just....sick. I think there's a definite difference between asking a parent to care for their child and a total stranger....cause at the end of the day that's exactly what she was a complete stranger. Nobody owed her anything. Echoed.
Honestly, I'm kind of glad my Lee got bitten. In my eyes, my Lee has pretty much failed to live up to his goal of redemption. Killed Larry and Danny, abandoned Lilly, nearly shot Molly on purpose (I considered it for a good few seconds), and dropped Ben. I just wish the bite had come AFTER I saved Clem from this maniac and made sure she was safe. At least my Lee gets to spend his last hours doing something good.
Everywhere is harms way. And as far as we know, all Clementine did was walk into the back yard. That's hardly reckless endangerment.
Okay, everywhere isn't danger. The house wasn't dangerous or at least was less dangerous. I highly doubt Clem just walked into the backyard. It's implied heavily she met up with the guy to find her parents, against Lee's wishes, and now she is in danger along with everyone trying to rescue her. Lee's life is gone, and 4 more people have the potential to die. That's not a fair exchange.
myeahh, shes 8 and traumatised. She wants closure about her parents and this pedobear is promising the world over the walkie talkie.
Really blame myself (or lee). He should have been more careful. Batteries out of the walkie talkie. Make it sure her parents were dead earlier etc. hell, he even got careless and let himself be bitten. No need to take it out on Clem
Honestly, I'm kind of glad my Lee got bitten. In my eyes, my Lee has pretty much failed to live up to his goal of redemption. Killed Larry and Danny, abandoned Lilly, nearly shot Molly on purpose (I considered it for a good few seconds), and dropped Ben. I just wish the bite had come AFTER I saved Clem from this maniac and made sure she was safe. At least my Lee gets to spend his last hours doing something good.
Seriously? You made all those choices. If he failed that's b/c you made him. lol
Okay, everywhere isn't danger. The house wasn't dangerous or at least was less dangerous. I highly doubt Clem just walked into the backyard. It's implied heavily she met up with the guy to find her parents, against Lee's wishes, and now she is in danger along with everyone trying to rescue her. Lee's life is gone, and 4 more people have the potential to die. That's not a fair exchange.
No, it's implied heavily that she was taken by the guy. That's why she left behind the two things that she normally never goes anywhere without. I can buy that maybe the mystery man left the walkie behind purposefully for Lee to find, but I can't see Clem going out there to meet him willingly and then saying, "Hold on, before we go meet my parents, let me take off this beloved hat that my dad gave me and leave it randomly in the middle of the lawn here." More likely, it fell off when she was taken.
hell, he even got careless and let himself be bitten. No need to take it out on Clem
Are you effing kidding me? GET SERIOUS! He didn't LET himself be bitten/scratched (not sure which it actually is) he was looking for that little girl to be hiding which she had been doing AGAINST all of his warnings!
She's 8...that does NOT automatically make her invulnerable!
No, it's implied heavily that she was taken by the guy. That's why she left behind the two things that she normally never goes anywhere without.
Fine, she met him and and then was taken. Doesn't make a difference. The point is he didn't go in the house and grab her. And she had no business being outside.
myeahh, shes 8 and traumatised. She wants closure about her parents and this pedobear is promising the world over the walkie talkie.
Really blame myself (or lee). He should have been more careful. Batteries out of the walkie talkie. Make it sure her parents were dead earlier etc. hell, he even got careless and let himself be bitten. No need to take it out on Clem
She's 8. She has motives. So what? This isn't a trial. We're not trying to determine a punishment. It's fault we're looking at.
If an 8 year old picks up a gun and kills someone we don't contest the crime was done, we contest what the consequences should be. The kid is still at fault to some degree.
Fine, she met him and and then was taken. Doesn't make a difference. The point, he didn't go in the house and grab her.
And no one else was looking out for her, everyone in that group would share the same blame you put on her, Lee included.
I have absolutely no remorse for a group of adults (one of which is/was a parent themselves) who have a child in their charge and outright refuse to accomplish even the basics of protecting that child. Christa failed her, Omid failed her, Ben failed her, Kenny failed her, Lee failed her. This is a group that would feel at home being camp counselors at Crystal Lake.
And no one else was looking out for her, everyone in that group would share the same blame you put on her, Lee included.
I have absolutely no remorse for a group of adults (one of which is/was a parent themselves) who have a child in their charge and outright refuse to accomplish even the basics of protecting that child. Christa failed her, Omid failed her, Ben failed her, Kenny failed her, Lee failed her. This is a group that would feel at home being camp counselors at Crystal Lake.
They tried to protect her. She's just impulsive, naive, and stubborn. She was determined and nothing was gong to stop her.
Am I upset that she didn't listen to me? Sure I am, probably just as much as any parent gets upset with their child from time to time. However, I don't resent her nor do I blame her. Chuck's speech or not...Clementine is a little girl. She thinks like one, she acts like one. Here she's been built up on the hope that she'll find her parents, finally being in the city they were in, only to suddenly be told that they'll be moving on without them.
That was...really her last chance, you know? That was kind of the moment where she had to accept that her parents were gone. Adults can very rarely be rational and clear-headed when they face the loss of a loved one, so how can I expect a young child to fare any better? I don't think it would have taken much manipulation from the Radio Man after that, with how desperate she must have been for hope. Clem's hat was in the backyard...so maybe that was just all it took.
And in the end I blame Lee most of all. Why?
Because he never sat Clementine down and went over her parents' fate with her. He always fed her half-truths or vague hopes. No matter what you choose, there's never really an option to give Clementine the full disclosure on what she should expect. As far as I know there's only one time you can say that her parents are dead, and from what I hear, it never goes any deeper than "they're probably dead" and then Clem cries. That is an equally inappropriate way to handle the situation. The topic needed to be approached with tact and lots of sympathy, and Clem needed time to process and understand why her parents were most likely gone.
So we can pass the blame around everywhere, but at least where my own Lee is concerned, he's the most responsible one of all. Clementine might have had time to grieve properly and deal with her loss, and thus not fall into the Radio Man's clutches, if only he hadn't put it off for so long.
Angry at an unruly child? Sure. But we can't expect her to see things as rationally as adults can. And when you're promised your long-lost parents, what 8 year old wouldn't at least try to get them back?
I'm much more angry at Lee's stupid behaviour. As soon as I heard that creep over the Walkie Talkie, I would've crushed it to pieces so to sever the connection between him and Clem. Or at least take the batteries out and hide them on me. Oh, and always lock the doors, windows and air ducts in the room Clementine's in. Especially if I'm gonna go take a nap in it and can't oversee what she's doing.
Honestly, Lee was just some guy that found Clem. Yes, he's kept her safe for the past few months, but that doesn't mean that he's the only one that can. I most definitely think she cares for Lee, but the little girl LOVES her parents and if there's even a possibility that they're alive why wouldn't she try to leave Lee to find them, especially if some other guy is telling her that he knows them? To her, this other guy seems just as friendly & safe to her as Lee does.
Well, I am kinda mad at Clem but I'm more upset about the way the build up to the kidnapping was. Clem was, until the end of episode 3, a model of good behavior, in my mind. I felt that there was a strong dynamic between her and Lee and that their interactions would have some important consequences.
Episode 4 blew them out of the water though. This chapter did plenty of things right but your relationship arc with Clem was NOT one of them.
First, she lied to me about the radio. Meaning the fact that had tried to always pick the most honest options had no impact on her. Some people have stated that all your choices finally matter but that's not true. The choices that involve your most important companion don't matter at all. Anyway, I wanted to have a long talk on why she did this but TellTale didn't give me that option. I mean, they seemed NICE? Hey Clem, remember those St John Brothers? They seemed nice too until they tried to make you eat Mark. Why did she believe this guy anyway? Did he say anything beyond that he knew her parents? Why didn't we get more info?
Second, she started wandering off without checking on me first. That little station we had explored near the train SHOULD have taught her how goddamn dangerous it is to go into a room without being careful but she did it TWICE with the shed and the doggy door. I don't mind her running after me and Kenny when we went for a boat but her lack of caution there, dispite that she knows better was disturbing. I don't understand this attitude she suddenly sprouts out. She seemed a lot more reasonable before.
Third, what did I have to do to convince her her parents were gone? The city was clearly dead. All the survivors were at that location. I bring her along and we find out EVERYONE is dead. We have this survivor girl that has been roaming around and she clearly knew nothing about Clem's parents. Why isn't she satisfied? What more does she want? A street by street sweep of the entire city?
Fourth, this really isn't Clems fault but I need to bring it up anyway. I told Clem that we would split up from the group and stay here to find her parents, so why aren't I doing that? It's not even an option. I don't like being made a liar. I even got this guy telling me that he would like to look after Clem and thinks I should leave her with them. Why is that a choice? Why isn't it... Why don't you and Clem BOTH stay? The idea that I would actually separate from Clem, at this point, is absurd. Yet he only offers to take in Clem. That is pure crap. Why am I forced to tell Clem we can't keep looking for her parents, that we HAVE to go on the boat? It makes no sense.
All this sets up a false dilemma the the writers clumsily use to create the reason for Clem to take off. She doesn't get it explained that the man is bad. She starts suddenly taking a lot more initiative to do risky and dangerous stuff. She is never satisfied, no matter how much you allow her to tag along and find out that everyone is dead in the city. And, finally, you are forced to drop the "we're a team" theme that you had developed where you and she were more important then staying with any particular group.
So, yea, I'm pretty bitter about this turn. Not shocked so much because I half expected it but the way it came about was lacking.
The only time I felt genuinely angry at Clem was when she crawled under the doggy door with no warning because it was so reckless. Even her cute little tada didnt warm me up. I gave her a scolding and I think she needed it to get the point.
Clem didn't bite him but she put in harms way. With Kenny, there was a plan of escaping on a boat. There was risk, but necessary. With Clem, it was a unnecessary and needless risk. She was disobeyed and trying to save her was bitten. It is simple negligence.
I would say I'm more angry or disappointed in Lee and believe he'd feel the same . He sets the walkie-talkie down where she can get to it and doesn't even take the precaution of removing the battery, and if you choose the option of reaching out to her he actually gives it to her knowing that the unkown predator is still out there telling her that her parents, who she hasn't given up hope that they still live and obviously believe that Lee went back on his promise to look for them, was with him.
Cause and effect. Yes I myself was angry Lee got bit, it is Clems fault, but we took that burden on ourselves. If it was the "real" Zombie apocalypse, I would have smothered Clem in her sleep with a pillow after I found her, but what's done is done. Lees love for Clem killed him.
Well, I am kinda mad at Clem but I'm more upset about the way the build up to the kidnapping was. Clem was, until the end of episode 3, a model of good behavior, in my mind. I felt that there was a strong dynamic between her and Lee and that their interactions would have some important consequences.
Episode 4 blew them out of the water though. This chapter did plenty of things right but your relationship arc with Clem was NOT one of them.
First, she lied to me about the radio. Meaning the fact that had tried to always pick the most honest options had no impact on her. Some people have stated that all your choices finally matter but that's not true. The choices that involve your most important companion don't matter at all. Anyway, I wanted to have a long talk on why she did this but TellTale didn't give me that option. I mean, they seemed NICE? Hey Clem, remember those St John Brothers? They seemed nice too until they tried to make you eat Mark. Why did she believe this guy anyway? Did he say anything beyond that he knew her parents? Why didn't we get more info?
Second, she started wandering off without checking on me first. That little station we had explored near the train SHOULD have taught her how goddamn dangerous it is to go into a room without being careful but she did it TWICE with the shed and the doggy door. I don't mind her running after me and Kenny when we went for a boat but her lack of caution there, dispite that she knows better was disturbing. I don't understand this attitude she suddenly sprouts out. She seemed a lot more reasonable before.
Third, what did I have to do to convince her her parents were gone? The city was clearly dead. All the survivors were at that location. I bring her along and we find out EVERYONE is dead. We have this survivor girl that has been roaming around and she clearly knew nothing about Clem's parents. Why isn't she satisfied? What more does she want? A street by street sweep of the entire city?
Fourth, this really isn't Clems fault but I need to bring it up anyway. I told Clem that we would split up from the group and stay here to find her parents, so why aren't I doing that? It's not even an option. I don't like being made a liar. I even got this guy telling me that he would like to look after Clem and thinks I should leave her with them. Why is that a choice? Why isn't it... Why don't you and Clem BOTH stay? The idea that I would actually separate from Clem, at this point, is absurd. Yet he only offers to take in Clem. That is pure crap. Why am I forced to tell Clem we can't keep looking for her parents, that we HAVE to go on the boat? It makes no sense.
All this sets up a false dilemma the the writers clumsily use to create the reason for Clem to take off. She doesn't get it explained that the man is bad. She starts suddenly taking a lot more initiative to do risky and dangerous stuff. She is never satisfied, no matter how much you allow her to tag along and find out that everyone is dead in the city. And, finally, you are forced to drop the "we're a team" theme that you had developed where you and she were more important then staying with any particular group.
So, yea, I'm pretty bitter about this turn. Not shocked so much because I half expected it but the way it came about was lacking.
Cause and effect. Yes I myself was angry Lee got bit, it is Clems fault, but we took that burden on ourselves.
No we didn't. Telltale made us keep Clem in the first place. I still haven't forgiven them for that. Totally not my way of surviving a zombie apocalypse.
Absolutely, Ep. 5 is going to be difficult for me simply because I'm dying for a brat who trusts complete strangers more than the folks she's been with for over 3 months and is so badly in denial that she'll seriously ask Lee to go back to Crawford and look for her parents again if you try to lie to her.
That being said, I don't have a problem with the story, I'm liking that this is one series where the naive group members are more dangerous than any outside threat, too often they're just treated as harmless and tolerable rather than the dangerous liabilities that they are.
Comments
That moral being: You should never tell the same lie twice.
I can see your point Red Panda, and I agree with it. It appears all our training were for nothing because she just does whatever she pleases. She did that the entire season. She's stubborn and yeah I know she's a kid, but as Chuck said, she has to grow up or she'll die. I hope Lee's death sticks with her through her entire life. She needs to know that her stupidity cost him his life and maybe that will be the reason why she won't be the next one to die.
It is really a shame that sometimes only a tragic event can allow us to see the truth that has been in front of our eyes all along. That's life, unfortunately.
If Clem wants to live, I hope she will learn her lesson now.
Clem has had a bad habit of not listening when told to stay, climbing the ladder to follow Lee up to the Fuel truck, crawling through the doggie door, going outside to play on her own (even tough she discovered the boat) still, she's put herself and others at risk.
Now I realize, when talking to Lee inside the house, Lee upset her saying they really wont have time to look for her parents, that upset Clem, so after Lee fell asleep, Clem took the walkie and went searching on her own. Lee goes looking for her and as a result get's bitten.
Think about iif it were Ben's fault, or Kenny's that Lee gets bitten.. We would all be cussing them, swearing to kill them.. But because it's Clem, we accept Lee's been bitten, not really mad, just concerned for Clem..
I'm guessing in EP5, Lee will find and save Clem, but since Lee is bitten, will proably be some big sacrifice scene. I think Clem's dad is dead, but maybe they find her mother..
They are surrounded by walkers, Lee takes Clem and hands her up to her mother as Lee endures multiple bites.. Clem has a gun and shoots Lee in the end to put him down!
Thats how I see it.. Sure Lee 'could' be mad at Clem.. But he isnt.. He's too concerned for her safety and willing to risk/sacrifice himself for her!
Mad at her? No, not really, but..
If possible I would make sure Lee explains to her the cost of her actions.
Lee: (as he's about to die/turn) Clemmypoo, I want you to take this as my final lesson to you! This world is now all about survival and you have to do anything you can to live.. But realize that you will need others to help you survive and just walking off like that can have dire consequences (shows her the bite).
Ive been honest with you from the start, taught you how to defend yourself and tried to explain the way of this new terrible world. You will have to be responsible for yourself and the others. Think before you act because what you do now, may affect everyone later.
Like Ben, he meant well, but his actions cost the lives of others.
You went to find your parents, I understand that, but because you took off and I had to search for you, has cost My life.
Take this as a lesson, it could save your life in the future!
Yes! Guilt trip she'll never forget, but will save her in the future!
You know what they say about reckoning.
Here's the thing. Zombies are literally around every corner. Is it really Clem's fault just because she's the reason he went outside that time? It could have happened the next day when they took the boat out. It could have happened when he went out to take a leak. Or any of the other many, many times that Lee stepped out of that house.
I was once driving on the highway to visit my sister for her birthday and I got into a wreck that left me in a wheelchair for months. But I don't blame my sister for being the reason I was on the highway. I blame the person who hit me with a car. Just because Clem is the reason Lee went outside, doesn't mean she's the reason he got bit.
It...makes a wreck...out of...I got nuthin'.
Valid point, but as a last lesson from Lee to Clem, something as harsh as that may be the life-lesson she remembers in the future so she can survive!
Oh absolutely, I'm not saying she won't feel guilty. That sort of survivor's guilt happens whether it makes rational sense or not. I'm just saying that Lee should (and does, by the look of it) know better than to blame her for it.
And so should we.
The "We're going to look out for each other" and "We're a team, you know?" statements he made in a previous episode were a pipe dream.
I'm not mad at Clem, just really, really, really disappointed.
Wow. Philosophy was my major in college if you want to go there. Look, it could have happened differently but it didn't. Let's no deviate from that fact.
If someone was dying of terminal cancer and could go anytime, and then some stranger shot them in head, would you think they should be punished? By your logic, they could have died any day, so how can they be held morally responsible? Of course you can b/c there's a difference between what could have happened and what did happen.
And there is a huge difference in asking someone to drive to you and having someone walk around a city filled with deadly monsters. Seriously.
Nice try, but that's actually the opposite of my logic. Obviously they should be punished because that is exactly what I'm talking about - direct causation. Clementine is not directly responsible for Lee getting bitten. Kenny is the one who insisted they go to Savannah, is it his fault? Without him, Lee would never have been in that alley either. Just because someone caused something that is part of a sequence of events does not make them responsible for everything else that happens in that sequence of events.
Clem didn't bite him but she put in harms way. With Kenny, there was a plan of escaping on a boat. There was risk, but necessary. With Clem, it was a unnecessary and needless risk. She was disobeyed and trying to save her was bitten. It is simple negligence.
OKay, after being bit,what is the longest you've know someone to function before becoming to sick? What is the longest you've known to survive? Give me a best case scenario based on some evidence. Point to a character in a comic or TV show.
Everywhere is harms way. And as far as we know, all Clementine did was walk into the back yard. That's hardly reckless endangerment.
Can't believe it but I agree with Yami
Yep. They put eggs all over Lee's face with that.
You are delusional then.
Okay, everywhere isn't danger. The house wasn't dangerous or at least was less dangerous. I highly doubt Clem just walked into the backyard. It's implied heavily she met up with the guy to find her parents, against Lee's wishes, and now she is in danger along with everyone trying to rescue her. Lee's life is gone, and 4 more people have the potential to die. That's not a fair exchange.
Really blame myself (or lee). He should have been more careful. Batteries out of the walkie talkie. Make it sure her parents were dead earlier etc. hell, he even got careless and let himself be bitten. No need to take it out on Clem
Seriously? You made all those choices. If he failed that's b/c you made him. lol
No, it's implied heavily that she was taken by the guy. That's why she left behind the two things that she normally never goes anywhere without. I can buy that maybe the mystery man left the walkie behind purposefully for Lee to find, but I can't see Clem going out there to meet him willingly and then saying, "Hold on, before we go meet my parents, let me take off this beloved hat that my dad gave me and leave it randomly in the middle of the lawn here." More likely, it fell off when she was taken.
Are you effing kidding me? GET SERIOUS! He didn't LET himself be bitten/scratched (not sure which it actually is) he was looking for that little girl to be hiding which she had been doing AGAINST all of his warnings!
She's 8...that does NOT automatically make her invulnerable!
Fine, she met him and and then was taken. Doesn't make a difference. The point is he didn't go in the house and grab her. And she had no business being outside.
She's 8. She has motives. So what? This isn't a trial. We're not trying to determine a punishment. It's fault we're looking at.
If an 8 year old picks up a gun and kills someone we don't contest the crime was done, we contest what the consequences should be. The kid is still at fault to some degree.
And no one else was looking out for her, everyone in that group would share the same blame you put on her, Lee included.
I have absolutely no remorse for a group of adults (one of which is/was a parent themselves) who have a child in their charge and outright refuse to accomplish even the basics of protecting that child. Christa failed her, Omid failed her, Ben failed her, Kenny failed her, Lee failed her. This is a group that would feel at home being camp counselors at Crystal Lake.
They tried to protect her. She's just impulsive, naive, and stubborn. She was determined and nothing was gong to stop her.
That was...really her last chance, you know? That was kind of the moment where she had to accept that her parents were gone. Adults can very rarely be rational and clear-headed when they face the loss of a loved one, so how can I expect a young child to fare any better? I don't think it would have taken much manipulation from the Radio Man after that, with how desperate she must have been for hope. Clem's hat was in the backyard...so maybe that was just all it took.
And in the end I blame Lee most of all. Why?
Because he never sat Clementine down and went over her parents' fate with her. He always fed her half-truths or vague hopes. No matter what you choose, there's never really an option to give Clementine the full disclosure on what she should expect. As far as I know there's only one time you can say that her parents are dead, and from what I hear, it never goes any deeper than "they're probably dead" and then Clem cries. That is an equally inappropriate way to handle the situation. The topic needed to be approached with tact and lots of sympathy, and Clem needed time to process and understand why her parents were most likely gone.
So we can pass the blame around everywhere, but at least where my own Lee is concerned, he's the most responsible one of all. Clementine might have had time to grieve properly and deal with her loss, and thus not fall into the Radio Man's clutches, if only he hadn't put it off for so long.
I'm much more angry at Lee's stupid behaviour. As soon as I heard that creep over the Walkie Talkie, I would've crushed it to pieces so to sever the connection between him and Clem. Or at least take the batteries out and hide them on me. Oh, and always lock the doors, windows and air ducts in the room Clementine's in. Especially if I'm gonna go take a nap in it and can't oversee what she's doing.
Episode 4 blew them out of the water though. This chapter did plenty of things right but your relationship arc with Clem was NOT one of them.
First, she lied to me about the radio. Meaning the fact that had tried to always pick the most honest options had no impact on her. Some people have stated that all your choices finally matter but that's not true. The choices that involve your most important companion don't matter at all. Anyway, I wanted to have a long talk on why she did this but TellTale didn't give me that option. I mean, they seemed NICE? Hey Clem, remember those St John Brothers? They seemed nice too until they tried to make you eat Mark. Why did she believe this guy anyway? Did he say anything beyond that he knew her parents? Why didn't we get more info?
Second, she started wandering off without checking on me first. That little station we had explored near the train SHOULD have taught her how goddamn dangerous it is to go into a room without being careful but she did it TWICE with the shed and the doggy door. I don't mind her running after me and Kenny when we went for a boat but her lack of caution there, dispite that she knows better was disturbing. I don't understand this attitude she suddenly sprouts out. She seemed a lot more reasonable before.
Third, what did I have to do to convince her her parents were gone? The city was clearly dead. All the survivors were at that location. I bring her along and we find out EVERYONE is dead. We have this survivor girl that has been roaming around and she clearly knew nothing about Clem's parents. Why isn't she satisfied? What more does she want? A street by street sweep of the entire city?
Fourth, this really isn't Clems fault but I need to bring it up anyway. I told Clem that we would split up from the group and stay here to find her parents, so why aren't I doing that? It's not even an option. I don't like being made a liar. I even got this guy telling me that he would like to look after Clem and thinks I should leave her with them. Why is that a choice? Why isn't it... Why don't you and Clem BOTH stay? The idea that I would actually separate from Clem, at this point, is absurd. Yet he only offers to take in Clem. That is pure crap. Why am I forced to tell Clem we can't keep looking for her parents, that we HAVE to go on the boat? It makes no sense.
All this sets up a false dilemma the the writers clumsily use to create the reason for Clem to take off. She doesn't get it explained that the man is bad. She starts suddenly taking a lot more initiative to do risky and dangerous stuff. She is never satisfied, no matter how much you allow her to tag along and find out that everyone is dead in the city. And, finally, you are forced to drop the "we're a team" theme that you had developed where you and she were more important then staying with any particular group.
So, yea, I'm pretty bitter about this turn. Not shocked so much because I half expected it but the way it came about was lacking.
I would say I'm more angry or disappointed in Lee and believe he'd feel the same . He sets the walkie-talkie down where she can get to it and doesn't even take the precaution of removing the battery, and if you choose the option of reaching out to her he actually gives it to her knowing that the unkown predator is still out there telling her that her parents, who she hasn't given up hope that they still live and obviously believe that Lee went back on his promise to look for them, was with him.
Wow, this was a great post. :eek:
No we didn't. Telltale made us keep Clem in the first place. I still haven't forgiven them for that. Totally not my way of surviving a zombie apocalypse.
Absolutely, Ep. 5 is going to be difficult for me simply because I'm dying for a brat who trusts complete strangers more than the folks she's been with for over 3 months and is so badly in denial that she'll seriously ask Lee to go back to Crawford and look for her parents again if you try to lie to her.
That being said, I don't have a problem with the story, I'm liking that this is one series where the naive group members are more dangerous than any outside threat, too often they're just treated as harmless and tolerable rather than the dangerous liabilities that they are.