If you side with Lilly in the meat locker, you risk Duck and Katjaa getting eaten alive by cannibals and getting slowly cut to pieces. Larry's death is nothing compared to that torture. You also risk Kenny (and everyone else's life's). All this for one old bastard who might be dead and who punched you into a room full of walkers after you got him his heart medicine. It's pretty clear why making the wrong choice in the meat locked turns Kenny against you.
But I have heard people say that they went will Lilly in the locker and still ended up as friends with Kenny.
That's not what Kenny was thinking, He even says it. they needed Kat and was using duck to get her to do what they wanted.
I used to feel the same way, but now I appreciate the writing. Some people just cannot let go of grudges. Your Lee might be forgiving; but Kenny is not. This is a very real personality trait, I am sure you have met at least one person like this.
So basically, the only reason Kenny will be unsupportive of you is if you don't help him murder Larry. I just did a run through of 1 through 4 (so don't read ahead if you haven't played episode 4) where I literally supported Kenny on everything, right down to feeding both Duck AND him in Episode 2. Every time in dialogue that I could support him, I did. Yet he still acts like a jerk because of the Larry decision.
In the end of Episode 4, I begged him to come with me and he said that I had spent so much time only thinking of myself and hadn't been there for my friends (after I kept Ben alive but okay) and he was going to stay with the boat.
However, a little bit of dialogue after that was a nice little touch. Kenny says he'll be at the boat and wait for us, or at least until nightfall. Lee looks at him, kind of surprised and asks something like "You still want to take me with you? Even though I'm bitten?" and Kenny says yes, that they'll figure it out when the time comes.
Despite his anger with me earlier, THAT was a tremendous bro moment that I actually loved.
So basically, the only reason Kenny will be unsupportive of you is if you don't help him murder Larry. I just did a run through of 1 through 4 (so don't read ahead if you haven't played episode 4) where I literally supported Kenny on everything, right down to feeding both Duck AND him in Episode 2. Every time in dialogue that I could support him, I did. Yet he still acts like a jerk because of the Larry decision.
In the end of Episode 4, I begged him to come with me and he said that I had spent so much time only thinking of myself and hadn't been there for my friends (after I kept Ben alive but okay) and he was going to stay with the boat.
However, a little bit of dialogue after that was a nice little touch. Kenny says he'll be at the boat and wait for us, or at least until nightfall. Lee looks at him, kind of surprised and asks something like "You still want to take me with you? Even though I'm bitten?" and Kenny says yes, that they'll figure it out when the time comes.
Despite his anger with me earlier, THAT was a tremendous bro moment that I actually loved.
I don't know if you always get that, but I got that little piece of dialog afterwards too. Even though ever since episode 2 I dislike that guy.
But I think that if you had dropped Ben, Kenny would have come with you. Apparently, Killing Larry and dropping Ben are the decisions that weigh the most on the "Kenny math" that happens when he's deciding to come with you. I think it would have worked the other way around too (Killing Larry and helping Ben). I would like to try it myself, but I don't really have the patience to do it
I don't know if you always get that, but I got that little piece of dialog afterwards too. Even though ever since episode 2 I dislike that guy.
But I think that if you had dropped Ben, Kenny would have come with you. Apparently, Killing Larry and dropping Ben are the decisions that weigh the most on the "Kenny math" that happens when he's deciding to come with you. I think it would have worked the other way around too (Killing Larry and helping Ben). I would like to try it myself, but I don't really have the patience to do it
I have a playthrough where I did do that. Killed Larry and helped Ben. Doing that, Kenny doesn't need any convincing at all. He tells you that you've always been there for him, so what kind of a friend would he be if he wasn't there for you now.
Well... I'm not saying it was just *cheap writing* or anything like that. The choices made actually have an effect on Kenny, but I agree telltale could have done it better. Despite of my Good Guy Lee walkthrough (not that I chose to play as a GGG, it's just that my gameplay fits perfectly the GGG story), I told Kenny to go fuck himself in Ep. 4, he just was immoral and selfish, something I've always hated on people.
Seems like the pro-Larry/con-Ben (or con-Larry/pro-Ben) choices do the trick. I will try it tomorrow, in quite tired now :P
By the way: I love how the "Go fuck yourself" dialog was written, it's just amazing! I'd have said exactly the same if I was lee. It actually has happened with a lot of dialogues of the game, which has been pretty fun
I don't know if you always get that, but I got that little piece of dialog afterwards too. Even though ever since episode 2 I dislike that guy.
But I think that if you had dropped Ben, Kenny would have come with you. Apparently, Killing Larry and dropping Ben are the decisions that weigh the most on the "Kenny math" that happens when he's deciding to come with you. I think it would have worked the other way around too (Killing Larry and helping Ben). I would like to try it myself, but I don't really have the patience to do it
If you side with Kenny on ALMOST everything, you can save Ben and still get Kenny's bros 4 life speech. He'll still object to going with Ben, like always, but telling him to deal with it won't make him back out or anything. I just did a playthrough where I agreed on almost everything with Kenny, including the regular conversations (which, I have to add, summarized my thoughts about the situations at the time more than the neutral options). The only thing I DIDN'T do for him was abandon Lilly in Episode 3. So it seems like it's possible to disagree with him twice, so long as one of those options isn't the Larry choice, and still get his bro speech. Like, in my canon playthrough I didn't take the food, and shot the girl in the street, but got the best friends dialouge. In this one, I took Lilly with me and saved Ben, still got that line. So I guess that's your answer
I'd love it if there was an option to still tell Kenny to go **** himself even if he agrees to help you find Clem. Sorry, but I just hate the guy that much
i dont know why people think kenny should be you best buddy even if you dont help him or back him up, maybe personally i would cut people more slack but i would still keep score, if you help me i will help you and vice versa, and if you don't help me you are an ass hole (zombie apocalypse kind of help) so why would kenny (a character who is reasonably calculating and pragmatic) help you if you don't help him, think about if you were playing the character of kenny you would have thought the time where Lee helped save everybody's life by stopping a giant zombie was way more important than the time Lee gave Duck half an apple or agreed with him.
He should feel loyal to Lee because of all the things Lee has done for his family, by just the scripted sequences alone, but then there is all of the extra optional things you can and most will choose to do for his family. For instance If You stood up to Larry and defended his son, fed his son shortly after, gave his son rations in ep2,saved his wife from the zombie on the truck, he shouldn't turn against you just because you tried to preserve life in the meat locker and he DEFINITELY shouldn't leave you to die in ep3 when you are attacked by a walker, in light of the fact that you saved his wife for the second time after the meat locker incident and defeated the man that had his son held hostage.
I did all of those things for his family when I played and he still treated me like shit, goading me and provoking me every step of the way until I nearly killed him on the train.(i've seen people fight against him and loose, it's not pretty. When Kenny fights Lee on the train he's verocious. It's not Kenny just using self defense, he's really trying to take Lee out ) I don't no about being best buddy's but after all I did for his family he should be kissing my ass and trying to stay in my good books not the other way around.
Yes, I sided with Lilly in the locker but I helped Kenny with Kaatja and Duck. I was there for him, so he agreed to help me find Clem.
He didn't want Ben to come along though, and I didn't mind. Ben is useless.
Dude Ben isn't really useless. I once hated him so much, but now I just feel bad for the kid. He wasn't evil, nor a traitor. You could call him a coward, but he does have his moments. He tries to help however be can. He tries to keep the group safe, it just doesn't work out with Lilly interrupted the deal. They should have went with the deal and left.
He tried to help at Crawford by finding Kenny a weapon, he didnt know it was keeping the door closed, and the walkers had went off for the moment.
He may have left Clem, but it was his fear to be eaten alive, and he knew it was wrong. He felt bad about it. He would try to get himself killed, resulting in being eaten alive, if you drop him. He grabs your gun for you. He tries to watch after clem. He goes with you willingly if he survives ep4. Ben was just meant to be hated.
And Kenny didnt want Ben to come but you can tell him to deal with it, bringing all your group with you
Dude Ben isn't really useless. I once hated him so much, but now I just feel bad for the kid. He wasn't evil, nor a traitor. You could call him a coward, but he does have his moments. He tries to help however be can. He tries to keep the group safe, it just doesn't work out with Lilly interrupted the deal. They should have went with the deal and left.
He tried to help at Crawford by finding Kenny a weapon, he didnt know it was keeping the door closed, and the walkers had went off for the moment.
He may have left Clem, but it was his fear to be eaten alive, and he knew it was wrong. He felt bad about it. He would try to get himself killed, resulting in being eaten alive, if you drop him. He grabs your gun for you. He tries to watch after clem. He goes with you willingly if he survives ep4. Ben was just meant to be hated.
And Kenny didnt want Ben to come but you can tell him to deal with it, bringing all your group with you
Calling him useless doesn't mean you hate him, you can sympathise with his ineptness (and the majority do), but its not really debatable.
The fact the only good thing he successfully does in four episodes is pick up a gun you dropped says it all really. Even then he gives it back because he's "not good with it", Come on Ben even the 8 year old has learnt how to shoot!
Also he didn't make the deal to keep the group safe, he did it because they said they had his friend, the fact it stopped the attacks for a little while was a side effect. If he had told Lee about it when he was investigating they could have made a clean getaway, but it was already too late by the time Lilly started shooting. The hatchet in the door thing was really, really stupid.
He had (mostly) good intentions, but was pretty useless, if not a detriment.
I'd love it if there was an option to still tell Kenny to go **** himself even if he agrees to help you find Clem. Sorry, but I just hate the guy that much
I know this is old, but can I just say real quick that would have been a hilarious exchange. Sorta like if you let Clem vote in Crawford then vote to kick Ben out anyways.
Kenny: "You’ve always been there for me, Lee. Always had my back when it mattered. What kind of friend would I be if I wasn’t there for you now? Bitten or not, I’m with you to the end. You can count on me."
Lee: "You know what Kenny? You can go fuck yourself!"
Kenny: O_o
Calling him useless doesn't mean you hate him, you can sympathise with his ineptness (and the majority do), but its not really debatable.
The fact the only good thing he successfully does in four episodes is pick up a gun you dropped says it all really. Even then he gives it back because he's "not good with it", Come on Ben even the 8 year old has learnt how to shoot.
Yeah, because someone took the time to teach her. I doubt Lilly bothered to teach Ben shit or trusted Carley enough to do it. My initial thought after teaching Clem how to shoot was I should probably teach Ben next, but it's not an option.
Like I've said in other posts, Ben really needed some kind of parental figure to guide him, teach him some important things to keep alive. That, or a bucket sand. Then you could just hand him the bucket and tell him to hold it all times and that should keep him busy enough he doesn't fuck anything else up.
Yeah, because someone took the time to teach her. I doubt Lilly bothered to teach Ben shit or trusted Carley enough to do it. My initial thought after teaching Clem how to shoot was I should probably teach Ben next, but it's not an option.
Like I've said in other posts, Ben really needed some kind of parental figure to guide him, teach him some important things to keep alive. That, or a bucket sand. Then you could just hand him the bucket and tell him to hold it all times and that should keep him busy enough he doesn't fuck anything else up.
Probably the one thing i would say to Ben right from the start given a chance would be "ask for help if you need it".
Its the same thing with the supplies, Its pretty clear he fairly quickly realised it was a mistake, if he had come to me about it we could have sorted it out with no deaths and i would have defended him from Lilly, instead he keeps quiet.
I really liked Kenny. When I tried reason the arguments with him and Larry/Lilly, just because I didn't support him directly doesn't mean I supported the other side (especially in the beginning of the game when you can decide to "try reason with Larry"). I was trying to stay neutral, but whenever I had separate conversations with Kenny I always let him know I was on his side. Nevertheless, just because I didn't bash a poor man's brains in he hated me despite the fact that I really liked Kenny as a character. So when he refused to come with me to get Clementine, I was very hurt. "Keeping score," *PSSH*. I treated his son like royalty (I might be the only one here who liked Duck) and freaking helped him with his sons death by staying calm with him and ending his sons life for him before his son could reanimate. I always stayed peaceful during the arguments with him, and was very sad when Kenny was "lost to the herd" but I am still angry that he refused to help find Clementine.
Calling him useless doesn't mean you hate him, you can sympathise with his ineptness (and the majority do), but its not really debatable.
The fact the only good thing he successfully does in four episodes is pick up a gun you dropped says it all really. Even then he gives it back because he's "not good with it", Come on Ben even the 8 year old has learnt how to shoot!
Also he didn't make the deal to keep the group safe, he did it because they said they had his friend, the fact it stopped the attacks for a little while was a side effect. If he had told Lee about it when he was investigating they could have made a clean getaway, but it was already too late by the time Lilly started shooting. The hatchet in the door thing was really, really stupid.
He had (mostly) good intentions, but was pretty useless, if not a detriment.
lol never said it mean't he hated him, I just said that I did xD. Me and my bro wanted to let him just die for the longest time, but I couldn't do it when the time came, and I'm glad I didn't.
Yeah, because someone took the time to teach her. I doubt Lilly bothered to teach Ben shit or trusted Carley enough to do it. My initial thought after teaching Clem how to shoot was I should probably teach Ben next, but it's not an option.
Like I've said in other posts, Ben really needed some kind of parental figure to guide him, teach him some important things to keep alive. That, or a bucket sand. Then you could just hand him the bucket and tell him to hold it all times and that should keep him busy enough he doesn't fuck anything else up.
It sounds like you are blaming Lilly for this, which is a tad too ridiculous.
If you are going to blame her, consider the timeline. The time when she put the group through a shooting regime was over the three months they stayed at the motor inn, a period of time that Ben was not part of.
First day he came in Lilly didn't welcome or trust him already, and before anything much could be done there was the mess with the St. Johns. And of course, I doubt Lilly trusted him anymore after the dairy farm (I don't think she ever did) and she's simply distracted and too distraught after her father's death (note how someone can actually steal the supplies in her room right under her nose).
The saddest thing about Ben is, everyone's too wound up in their own 'world' to be his mentor. Lilly obviously didn't care or didn't want to care, Lee's got Clem and Kenny rarely cares beyond his own family.
But if I make the headcount like this, then the next obvious question is why didn't Carly teach Ben?
Or maybe she did - just that he didn't have the stomach for it and I don't think she will really push it.
I know this is old, but can I just say real quick that would have been a hilarious exchange. Sorta like if you let Clem vote in Crawford then vote to kick Ben out anyways.
Kenny: "You’ve always been there for me, Lee. Always had my back when it mattered. What kind of friend would I be if I wasn’t there for you now? Bitten or not, I’m with you to the end. You can count on me."
Lee: "You know what Kenny? You can go fuck yourself!"
Kenny: O_o
That option stays even after Kenny says that? I like that!
It sounds like you are blaming Lilly for this, which is a tad too ridiculous.
At this point it's a shorter list for what I don't blame her for.
All though if she didn't trust Ben and didn't bother teaching him anything, she really shouldn't have been putting him on watch then. Notice she doesn't even have a real answer to that criticism when Kenny points it out. I also think she didn't trust Carley with a gun anymore at that point. Notice how possessive she is when Kenny and Lee bring those rifles back? And last episode if you look at the fence Lee says Carley was doing the bulk of the lookout duty, but not anymore. She doesn't even have a gun on her anymore even though she was probably the group's best shot.
But that's all beside the point. People point how much better Clementine is doing despite being half Ben's age but she's got Lee looking out for her. Hell, everyone you meet wants to protect Clementine, even some of the bad guys. In Ben's case nobody is looking out for him but since he's older everyone expects him to pull his weight, unlike Clementine and Duck, even though Ben doesn't even look old enough to vote. He's old enough where he's expected to be responsible but not nearly old to actually be responsible. I was at least as protective of him as I was Duck.
And no, you can't tell Kenny to fuck off if he gives you the bro speech, I was just pointing out how hilarious it would be if you could.
I know this is old, but can I just say real quick that would have been a hilarious exchange. Sorta like if you let Clem vote in Crawford then vote to kick Ben out anyways.
That's what I did... and I regret it. I feel bad, and I never wanted Ben to die (which is why I saved him). I just wanted Kenny to stop being such a jerk to me so I hoped this would win him over even though it didn't. Including, I had a gut feeling we would never make it to the boat so it wouldn't really matter. We have to remember that Ben is still a kid and I think the reason most people didn't like him was because he sort of came in out of the blue and then screwed the group up. However what most of you guys don't realize is that if Ben didn't give the food to the bandits then the bandits would have straight out attacked the group, seeing what they did the moment they didn't find the food because Lee took it away.
I like how they made Kenny the character he is, i dont think he's not realistic, he's a sellfish bastard, however my only complaint is that i dont have an option of a manly response to him!!
I thought i found one when you are offered the F**K Off response in episode 4 but then you end up being talked down to again!!
It's frustrating cause i wanna tell him about all the times i helped him AND ABOUT ALL THE TIMES THAT ASSHOLE LEFT ME FOR DEAD!!!!!!
i forgave him all of those, EVERY TIME!! And he chickens out not wanting to go after Clem!!
I hate him as a person but as a character he's great to get your emotions kick in (regardless of how negative they are)!!
BUT PLEASE LET US HAVE THE OPTION TO REALLY TEACH HIM A LESSON!!
I like how they made Kenny the character he is, i dont think he's not realistic, he's a sellfish bastard, however my only complaint is that i dont have an option of a manly response to him!!
I thought i found one when you are offered the F**K Off response in episode 4 but then you end up being talked down to again!!
It's frustrating cause i wanna tell him about all the times i helped him AND ABOUT ALL THE TIMES THAT ASSHOLE LEFT ME FOR DEAD!!!!!!
i forgave him all of those, EVERY TIME!! And he chickens out not wanting to go after Clem!!
I hate him as a person but as a character he's great to get your emotions kick in (regardless of how negative they are)!!
BUT PLEASE LET US HAVE THE OPTION TO REALLY TEACH HIM A LESSON!!
Considering he leaves you from dead... you were probably quite the asshole to him. My Kenny was pretty much nothing but loyal and a great friend. You can't stop spats or arguments, but he always had my back. How he treats you is a reflection of how you treated him. You may not see it that way, but he does, and I do too after thinking about it. Like trying to save Larry after all he did put his family and your's in danger. Maybe he could have survived, but you didn't have the time, and he would be one hell of a zombie. Shooting that girl would risk your life and Kenny's, and the girl would die anyway. If you try to reason with Larry or agree that Duck was bitten, obviously Kenny won't like you too much. And he'll still save your butt in Macon and gave you the ride to Macon in the first place. I can't defend Kenny completely, there are times he can be a dick, but he knows that, and inevitably makes up for it. And if you talk to him about Clem being your family he will go with you to help her.
lol. He was only joking with Molly, if you couldn't hear his sarcastic tone. And I couldn't blame him for not trusting her, considering you had just met her, and would have killed you and Kenny(if you are slow) if Clem hadn't shown up. And then would have left you behind. She also indirectly got Chuck killed. Just sayin.
That's what I did... and I regret it. I feel bad, and I never wanted Ben to die (which is why I saved him). I just wanted Kenny to stop being such a jerk to me so I hoped this would win him over even though it didn't. Including, I had a gut feeling we would never make it to the boat so it wouldn't really matter. We have to remember that Ben is still a kid and I think the reason most people didn't like him was because he sort of came in out of the blue and then screwed the group up. However what most of you guys don't realize is that if Ben didn't give the food to the bandits then the bandits would have straight out attacked the group, seeing what they did the moment they didn't find the food because Lee took it away.
Actually, people tend to forget that the bandits were attacking the group beforehand and never really got anywhere. Look at the wall and gate of the motor inn at the start of Episode 3, the wall's riddled with arrows and bullet holes. The bandits had been attacking for weeks and didn't breach the place.
Ben's deal just created a false sense of security when the bandits stopped attacking for a few days, as evidenced by the fact he was the guy on the watch when their attack succeeded (when that was primarily Lilly or Carley's duty, if the latter was alive). Hell, had Carley been on watch, I'm not even sure the bandits would've made it through the gate - she was able to spot the St. Johns approaching from ground level through the wall, Ben either failed to spot an entire group of people approaching from an elevated position or just let them approach.
Ben either failed to spot an entire group of people approaching from an elevated position or just let them approach.
Totally. It actually makes me wonder what Ben didn't tell Lee when he admitted his guilt. The fact he didn't raise an alarm when bandits were climbing up the walls makes me suspicious Ben's deal went beyond just giving supplies. :mad:
Actually, people tend to forget that the bandits were attacking the group beforehand and never really got anywhere. Look at the wall and gate of the motor inn at the start of Episode 3, the wall's riddled with arrows and bullet holes. The bandits had been attacking for weeks and didn't breach the place.
Ben's deal just created a false sense of security when the bandits stopped attacking for a few days, as evidenced by the fact he was the guy on the watch when their attack succeeded (when that was primarily Lilly or Carley's duty, if the latter was alive). Hell, had Carley been on watch, I'm not even sure the bandits would've made it through the gate - she was able to spot the St. Johns approaching from ground level through the wall, Ben either failed to spot an entire group of people approaching from an elevated position or just let them approach.
that elevated position was in a really bad place for spotting anything but a direct attack from the woods in front of the motel, the buildings either side of the parking lot would have blocked any view of an attack from the sides, that is why the signal for the supply drop was on one side of the motel and the stash was on the other side, because it couldn't be seen from the parking lot, the lookout they had was really more of a superficial "feel safe" lookout position that an actual strategic lookout position, so Ben failing to see them attack was probably a genuine sneak attack rather than Ben letting them attack
that elevated position was in a really bad place for spotting anything but a direct attack from the woods in front of the motel, the buildings either side of the parking lot would have blocked any view of an attack from the sides, that is why the signal for the supply drop was on one side of the motel and the stash was on the other side, because it couldn't be seen from the parking lot, the lookout they had was really more of a superficial "feel safe" lookout position that an actual strategic lookout position, so Ben failing to see them attack was probably a genuine sneak attack rather than Ben letting them attack
Except no matter what angle of approach, the bandits still had to climb over the wall which means they had to come in sight of the lookout as soon as the first head popped up. So Ben either chickened out and didn't fire because he's pathetic or he let them attack and didn't open fire when the first bandit climbed up the wall.
I do agree the RV wasn't the best spot in terms of cover. A sniper in the forest could've drop the lookout easily since it was totally exposed.
Except no matter what angle of approach, the bandits still had to climb over the wall which means they had to come in sight of the lookout as soon as the first head popped up. So Ben either chickened out and didn't fire because he's pathetic or he let them attack and didn't open fire when the first bandit climbed up the wall.
I do agree the RV wasn't the best spot in terms of cover. A sniper in the forest could've drop the lookout easily since it was totally exposed.
they didn't need to get over the wall just get near enough to point a gun a peoples heads then they get over the wall, and nobody not even lilly would have shot someone the second they came round the corner, also considering Ben was not good with guns shooting at them probably would have just meant a dead member of Lee's group not a dead bandit because he would have missed and caused a gunfight that they would loose
they didn't need to get over the wall just get near enough to point a gun a peoples heads then they get over the wall, and nobody not even lilly would have shot someone the second they came round the corner, also considering Ben was not good with guns shooting at them probably would have just meant a dead member of Lee's group not a dead bandit because he would have missed and caused a gunfight that they would loose
I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. Considering the wall was high enough, to put a gun at someone's head, don't they need to climb up the wall first? And that's even assuming the bandits are doing what you assume they did and that someone was standing put in the right spot for them. They could have just climbed over the wall as well with Ben not noticing or letting them.
And if Ben is a bad shot, did he go mute? He's a sentry. It's his job to call out a warning to the group. Surely, he's capable of at least yelling "Bandits!" Yeah, he's incompetent, but this level of incompetence is so bad that it makes me wonder if he let them in.
And as a sentry, he's the first line of defense. It's his job to both warn and start shooting hostiles so others could stand to when the inn got attacked. No one expects a sentry to win a fight by himself. His job is to watch for danger and warn the group.
The fact of the matter is we hear absolutely no warning at all from Ben. And considering how the bandits have to climb over the wall in full view of the sentry...there's really no excuse for Ben.
I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. Considering the wall was high enough, to put a gun at someone's head, don't they need to climb up the wall first? And that's even assuming the bandits are doing what you assume they did and that someone was standing put in the right spot for them. They could have just climbed over the wall as well with Ben not noticing or letting them.
And if Ben is a bad shot, did he go mute? He's a sentry. It's his job to call out a warning to the group. Surely, he's capable of at least yelling "Bandits!" Yeah, he's incompetent, but this level of incompetence is so bad that it makes me wonder if he let them in.
And as a sentry, he's the first line of defense. It's his job to both warn and start shooting hostiles so others could stand to when the inn got attacked. No one expects a sentry to win a fight by himself. His job is to watch for danger and warn the group.
The fact of the matter is we hear absolutely no warning at all from Ben. And considering how the bandits have to climb over the wall in full view of the sentry...there's really no excuse for Ben.
the wall they constructed was not very high, we didn't see what happened but i think it is safe to assume it was an ambush (carley even got caught out) that could mean that a few bandits from either side of the constructed wall (behind the buildings wall) pointed their guns at the group and were in such an advantageous position that surrendering (like they did) would be the best course of action, and as i said the "sentry" or Ben could not have seen that coming until the group were already at gun point so there was no warning from Ben because he didn't see them until they already knew the bandits were there anyway because they were pointing guns at them
the wall they constructed was not very high, we didn't see what happened but i think it is safe to assume it was an ambush (carley even got caught out) that could mean that a few bandits from either side of the constructed wall (behind the buildings wall) pointed their guns at the group and were in such an advantageous position that surrendering (like they did) would be the best course of action, and as i said the "sentry" or Ben could not have seen that coming until the group were already at gun point so there was no warning from Ben because he didn't see them until they already knew the bandits were there anyway because they were pointing guns at them
Let's just assume that was what happened. Then I don't see how Ben has any excuses. If the bandits were in line of sight to aim their weapons at the group, then the bandits themselves were in line of sight of the sentry/group. Furthermore, all of this involve moving enough bandits into line of sight to completely overpower the group, and one of the things they teach about fieldcraft/camouflage in the army is that the human eye is naturally drawn to movement. So it seems like Ben was just totally zoning out or didn't care.
Now let's look at a screenshot of the inn:
So yes, you're right that the wall, for the most part at least, isn't that high. However, the only approach where the bandits could have reasonably closed in on the inn undetected would be where Ben's drop off point is. There's too much open ground on the other side due to the RV being closer to the drop off point. But as you can see in the screenshot, the wall by the drop off point is actually more than high enough that no one could have aimed their weapons through there as you suggest. They would have to walk to or past the garbage containers within clear sight of the sentry.
So yeah, the group was caught off guard but only because Ben wasn't paying attention or was collaborating with the bandits.
First....lol at Doug sleeping on the couch. Second, I'm fairly certain the RV was moved elsewhere from its position in that screenshot during episode 3, for what that's worth. It was more in the center of the Inn.
As for Kenny...if you go against him in the meat locker, i think he keeps his family in mind every time he leaves you for dead. When he stops and glances at the door wondering whether he should save Lee, he's probably thinking "This is the same guy who wanted my family to die so we could save that asshole Larry" or something similar. Since the only reason he wanted Larry dead was because he feared it would prevent him from saving his family, it sort of makes sense.
maybe this could explain why being caught off guard doesn't require Ben to be not paying attention or collaborating with them
But this goes back to one my earlier points several posts ago: people still need to pop their heads up. The bandits don't just materialize in a weapons ready position even if they did sneak up. They still have to move their heads up first putting them in line of sight of Ben. An like I said, the human eye is naturally attracted to movement, especially when there isn't much movement the other side of the wall. It's more than enough time for Ben to yell out a single word of warning to the group.
As for Kenny...if you go against him in the meat locker, i think he keeps his family in mind every time he leaves you for dead. When he stops and glances at the door wondering whether he should save Lee, he's probably thinking "This is the same guy who wanted my family to die so we could save that asshole Larry" or something similar. Since the only reason he wanted Larry dead was because he feared it would prevent him from saving his family, it sort of makes sense.
LOL yes back on topic. I think the Kenny-Lilly divide shows a group within the group mentality. I suppose that's always true for most groups, It's understandable, but the stubborn personalities of both Kenny and Lilly made compromise difficult and to consider what's always best for the group as a whole. Kenny thinks of his family first, and so does Lilly/Larry. If Lee wasn't burdened by his past, he might have been more forceful in acting as a glue for everyone.
From what I think, one of the bandits could have come over first and taken someone hostage, with the other few following. If they captured katjaa or duck, Kenny would surrender, same with ben, he barely has the guts to shoot people anyway. That just leaves Carley, who would be outnumbered. If you have an argument as to where they could have come in, over by the pink x on the wall, it was a weak point and blind spot.
Anyway, with both lee and Lilly preoccupied, ken and katjaa with a spat, Carley/Doug in emotional turmoil, kids being kids, and BEN of all people on watch, it'd be plausible as to a successful ambush.
Comments
yea, i've "heard" it as well, just haven't seen it.
i've played 3 different ways and the only way he's been loyal is if you agree with kenny in the meat locker
That's not what Kenny was thinking, He even says it. they needed Kat and was using duck to get her to do what they wanted.
Yes, I sided with Lilly in the locker but I helped Kenny with Kaatja and Duck. I was there for him, so he agreed to help me find Clem.
He didn't want Ben to come along though, and I didn't mind. Ben is useless.
In the end of Episode 4, I begged him to come with me and he said that I had spent so much time only thinking of myself and hadn't been there for my friends (after I kept Ben alive but okay) and he was going to stay with the boat.
However, a little bit of dialogue after that was a nice little touch. Kenny says he'll be at the boat and wait for us, or at least until nightfall. Lee looks at him, kind of surprised and asks something like "You still want to take me with you? Even though I'm bitten?" and Kenny says yes, that they'll figure it out when the time comes.
Despite his anger with me earlier, THAT was a tremendous bro moment that I actually loved.
I don't know if you always get that, but I got that little piece of dialog afterwards too. Even though ever since episode 2 I dislike that guy.
But I think that if you had dropped Ben, Kenny would have come with you. Apparently, Killing Larry and dropping Ben are the decisions that weigh the most on the "Kenny math" that happens when he's deciding to come with you. I think it would have worked the other way around too (Killing Larry and helping Ben). I would like to try it myself, but I don't really have the patience to do it
I have a playthrough where I did do that. Killed Larry and helped Ben. Doing that, Kenny doesn't need any convincing at all. He tells you that you've always been there for him, so what kind of a friend would he be if he wasn't there for you now.
Seems like the pro-Larry/con-Ben (or con-Larry/pro-Ben) choices do the trick. I will try it tomorrow, in quite tired now :P
By the way: I love how the "Go fuck yourself" dialog was written, it's just amazing! I'd have said exactly the same if I was lee. It actually has happened with a lot of dialogues of the game, which has been pretty fun
If you side with Kenny on ALMOST everything, you can save Ben and still get Kenny's bros 4 life speech. He'll still object to going with Ben, like always, but telling him to deal with it won't make him back out or anything. I just did a playthrough where I agreed on almost everything with Kenny, including the regular conversations (which, I have to add, summarized my thoughts about the situations at the time more than the neutral options). The only thing I DIDN'T do for him was abandon Lilly in Episode 3. So it seems like it's possible to disagree with him twice, so long as one of those options isn't the Larry choice, and still get his bro speech. Like, in my canon playthrough I didn't take the food, and shot the girl in the street, but got the best friends dialouge. In this one, I took Lilly with me and saved Ben, still got that line. So I guess that's your answer
I did all of those things for his family when I played and he still treated me like shit, goading me and provoking me every step of the way until I nearly killed him on the train.(i've seen people fight against him and loose, it's not pretty. When Kenny fights Lee on the train he's verocious. It's not Kenny just using self defense, he's really trying to take Lee out ) I don't no about being best buddy's but after all I did for his family he should be kissing my ass and trying to stay in my good books not the other way around.
Dude Ben isn't really useless. I once hated him so much, but now I just feel bad for the kid. He wasn't evil, nor a traitor. You could call him a coward, but he does have his moments. He tries to help however be can. He tries to keep the group safe, it just doesn't work out with Lilly interrupted the deal. They should have went with the deal and left.
He tried to help at Crawford by finding Kenny a weapon, he didnt know it was keeping the door closed, and the walkers had went off for the moment.
He may have left Clem, but it was his fear to be eaten alive, and he knew it was wrong. He felt bad about it. He would try to get himself killed, resulting in being eaten alive, if you drop him. He grabs your gun for you. He tries to watch after clem. He goes with you willingly if he survives ep4. Ben was just meant to be hated.
And Kenny didnt want Ben to come but you can tell him to deal with it, bringing all your group with you
Calling him useless doesn't mean you hate him, you can sympathise with his ineptness (and the majority do), but its not really debatable.
The fact the only good thing he successfully does in four episodes is pick up a gun you dropped says it all really. Even then he gives it back because he's "not good with it", Come on Ben even the 8 year old has learnt how to shoot!
Also he didn't make the deal to keep the group safe, he did it because they said they had his friend, the fact it stopped the attacks for a little while was a side effect. If he had told Lee about it when he was investigating they could have made a clean getaway, but it was already too late by the time Lilly started shooting. The hatchet in the door thing was really, really stupid.
He had (mostly) good intentions, but was pretty useless, if not a detriment.
I know this is old, but can I just say real quick that would have been a hilarious exchange. Sorta like if you let Clem vote in Crawford then vote to kick Ben out anyways.
Kenny: "You’ve always been there for me, Lee. Always had my back when it mattered. What kind of friend would I be if I wasn’t there for you now? Bitten or not, I’m with you to the end. You can count on me."
Lee: "You know what Kenny? You can go fuck yourself!"
Kenny: O_o
Yeah, because someone took the time to teach her. I doubt Lilly bothered to teach Ben shit or trusted Carley enough to do it. My initial thought after teaching Clem how to shoot was I should probably teach Ben next, but it's not an option.
Like I've said in other posts, Ben really needed some kind of parental figure to guide him, teach him some important things to keep alive. That, or a bucket sand. Then you could just hand him the bucket and tell him to hold it all times and that should keep him busy enough he doesn't fuck anything else up.
Probably the one thing i would say to Ben right from the start given a chance would be "ask for help if you need it".
Its the same thing with the supplies, Its pretty clear he fairly quickly realised it was a mistake, if he had come to me about it we could have sorted it out with no deaths and i would have defended him from Lilly, instead he keeps quiet.
Talk to me FFS Ben. I could have helped you.
lol never said it mean't he hated him, I just said that I did xD. Me and my bro wanted to let him just die for the longest time, but I couldn't do it when the time came, and I'm glad I didn't.
It sounds like you are blaming Lilly for this, which is a tad too ridiculous.
If you are going to blame her, consider the timeline. The time when she put the group through a shooting regime was over the three months they stayed at the motor inn, a period of time that Ben was not part of.
First day he came in Lilly didn't welcome or trust him already, and before anything much could be done there was the mess with the St. Johns. And of course, I doubt Lilly trusted him anymore after the dairy farm (I don't think she ever did) and she's simply distracted and too distraught after her father's death (note how someone can actually steal the supplies in her room right under her nose).
The saddest thing about Ben is, everyone's too wound up in their own 'world' to be his mentor. Lilly obviously didn't care or didn't want to care, Lee's got Clem and Kenny rarely cares beyond his own family.
But if I make the headcount like this, then the next obvious question is why didn't Carly teach Ben?
Or maybe she did - just that he didn't have the stomach for it and I don't think she will really push it.
That option stays even after Kenny says that? I like that!
At this point it's a shorter list for what I don't blame her for.
All though if she didn't trust Ben and didn't bother teaching him anything, she really shouldn't have been putting him on watch then. Notice she doesn't even have a real answer to that criticism when Kenny points it out. I also think she didn't trust Carley with a gun anymore at that point. Notice how possessive she is when Kenny and Lee bring those rifles back? And last episode if you look at the fence Lee says Carley was doing the bulk of the lookout duty, but not anymore. She doesn't even have a gun on her anymore even though she was probably the group's best shot.
But that's all beside the point. People point how much better Clementine is doing despite being half Ben's age but she's got Lee looking out for her. Hell, everyone you meet wants to protect Clementine, even some of the bad guys. In Ben's case nobody is looking out for him but since he's older everyone expects him to pull his weight, unlike Clementine and Duck, even though Ben doesn't even look old enough to vote. He's old enough where he's expected to be responsible but not nearly old to actually be responsible. I was at least as protective of him as I was Duck.
And no, you can't tell Kenny to fuck off if he gives you the bro speech, I was just pointing out how hilarious it would be if you could.
I thought i found one when you are offered the F**K Off response in episode 4 but then you end up being talked down to again!!
It's frustrating cause i wanna tell him about all the times i helped him AND ABOUT ALL THE TIMES THAT ASSHOLE LEFT ME FOR DEAD!!!!!!
i forgave him all of those, EVERY TIME!! And he chickens out not wanting to go after Clem!!
I hate him as a person but as a character he's great to get your emotions kick in (regardless of how negative they are)!!
BUT PLEASE LET US HAVE THE OPTION TO REALLY TEACH HIM A LESSON!!
ASSHOLE!!!
What have you done for him , lately?
lol. He was only joking with Molly, if you couldn't hear his sarcastic tone. And I couldn't blame him for not trusting her, considering you had just met her, and would have killed you and Kenny(if you are slow) if Clem hadn't shown up. And then would have left you behind. She also indirectly got Chuck killed. Just sayin.
that line reminded me of the what have the Romans ever done for us part in life of Brian http://youtu.be/ExWfh6sGyso
Also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE
lol i like how this wasn't supposed to be hilarious at the time it was made
Aqueduct? Molly helped Lee get into the aqueduct.
Actually, people tend to forget that the bandits were attacking the group beforehand and never really got anywhere. Look at the wall and gate of the motor inn at the start of Episode 3, the wall's riddled with arrows and bullet holes. The bandits had been attacking for weeks and didn't breach the place.
Ben's deal just created a false sense of security when the bandits stopped attacking for a few days, as evidenced by the fact he was the guy on the watch when their attack succeeded (when that was primarily Lilly or Carley's duty, if the latter was alive). Hell, had Carley been on watch, I'm not even sure the bandits would've made it through the gate - she was able to spot the St. Johns approaching from ground level through the wall, Ben either failed to spot an entire group of people approaching from an elevated position or just let them approach.
Totally. It actually makes me wonder what Ben didn't tell Lee when he admitted his guilt. The fact he didn't raise an alarm when bandits were climbing up the walls makes me suspicious Ben's deal went beyond just giving supplies. :mad:
that elevated position was in a really bad place for spotting anything but a direct attack from the woods in front of the motel, the buildings either side of the parking lot would have blocked any view of an attack from the sides, that is why the signal for the supply drop was on one side of the motel and the stash was on the other side, because it couldn't be seen from the parking lot, the lookout they had was really more of a superficial "feel safe" lookout position that an actual strategic lookout position, so Ben failing to see them attack was probably a genuine sneak attack rather than Ben letting them attack
Except no matter what angle of approach, the bandits still had to climb over the wall which means they had to come in sight of the lookout as soon as the first head popped up. So Ben either chickened out and didn't fire because he's pathetic or he let them attack and didn't open fire when the first bandit climbed up the wall.
I do agree the RV wasn't the best spot in terms of cover. A sniper in the forest could've drop the lookout easily since it was totally exposed.
they didn't need to get over the wall just get near enough to point a gun a peoples heads then they get over the wall, and nobody not even lilly would have shot someone the second they came round the corner, also considering Ben was not good with guns shooting at them probably would have just meant a dead member of Lee's group not a dead bandit because he would have missed and caused a gunfight that they would loose
I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. Considering the wall was high enough, to put a gun at someone's head, don't they need to climb up the wall first? And that's even assuming the bandits are doing what you assume they did and that someone was standing put in the right spot for them. They could have just climbed over the wall as well with Ben not noticing or letting them.
And if Ben is a bad shot, did he go mute? He's a sentry. It's his job to call out a warning to the group. Surely, he's capable of at least yelling "Bandits!" Yeah, he's incompetent, but this level of incompetence is so bad that it makes me wonder if he let them in.
And as a sentry, he's the first line of defense. It's his job to both warn and start shooting hostiles so others could stand to when the inn got attacked. No one expects a sentry to win a fight by himself. His job is to watch for danger and warn the group.
The fact of the matter is we hear absolutely no warning at all from Ben. And considering how the bandits have to climb over the wall in full view of the sentry...there's really no excuse for Ben.
the wall they constructed was not very high, we didn't see what happened but i think it is safe to assume it was an ambush (carley even got caught out) that could mean that a few bandits from either side of the constructed wall (behind the buildings wall) pointed their guns at the group and were in such an advantageous position that surrendering (like they did) would be the best course of action, and as i said the "sentry" or Ben could not have seen that coming until the group were already at gun point so there was no warning from Ben because he didn't see them until they already knew the bandits were there anyway because they were pointing guns at them
Let's just assume that was what happened. Then I don't see how Ben has any excuses. If the bandits were in line of sight to aim their weapons at the group, then the bandits themselves were in line of sight of the sentry/group. Furthermore, all of this involve moving enough bandits into line of sight to completely overpower the group, and one of the things they teach about fieldcraft/camouflage in the army is that the human eye is naturally drawn to movement. So it seems like Ben was just totally zoning out or didn't care.
Now let's look at a screenshot of the inn:
So yes, you're right that the wall, for the most part at least, isn't that high. However, the only approach where the bandits could have reasonably closed in on the inn undetected would be where Ben's drop off point is. There's too much open ground on the other side due to the RV being closer to the drop off point. But as you can see in the screenshot, the wall by the drop off point is actually more than high enough that no one could have aimed their weapons through there as you suggest. They would have to walk to or past the garbage containers within clear sight of the sentry.
So yeah, the group was caught off guard but only because Ben wasn't paying attention or was collaborating with the bandits.
As for Kenny...if you go against him in the meat locker, i think he keeps his family in mind every time he leaves you for dead. When he stops and glances at the door wondering whether he should save Lee, he's probably thinking "This is the same guy who wanted my family to die so we could save that asshole Larry" or something similar. Since the only reason he wanted Larry dead was because he feared it would prevent him from saving his family, it sort of makes sense.
But this goes back to one my earlier points several posts ago: people still need to pop their heads up. The bandits don't just materialize in a weapons ready position even if they did sneak up. They still have to move their heads up first putting them in line of sight of Ben. An like I said, the human eye is naturally attracted to movement, especially when there isn't much movement the other side of the wall. It's more than enough time for Ben to yell out a single word of warning to the group.
LOL yes back on topic. I think the Kenny-Lilly divide shows a group within the group mentality. I suppose that's always true for most groups, It's understandable, but the stubborn personalities of both Kenny and Lilly made compromise difficult and to consider what's always best for the group as a whole. Kenny thinks of his family first, and so does Lilly/Larry. If Lee wasn't burdened by his past, he might have been more forceful in acting as a glue for everyone.
Anyway, with both lee and Lilly preoccupied, ken and katjaa with a spat, Carley/Doug in emotional turmoil, kids being kids, and BEN of all people on watch, it'd be plausible as to a successful ambush.