The Case Against Kenny
Ep 1 - He abandons Shawn, literally runs off, even though his child is safe
Ep 2 - He suggests you might be useful at lockpicking because you're "urban"
Ep 2 - He kills Larry as you're trying to save him
Ep 2 - He tells you he'll back you up handling Danny St John, instead he leaves you to die
Ep 3 - He causes a massive argument at the motel over leaving and is the root cause of the paranoia that leads to Carley, Duck and Katjaa dying.
Ep 3 - He once again leaves you to die as you're trapped under a door
Ep 3 - He drops you while trying to get on the truck
Ep 3 - He fucks you over by blabbing about the girl you kill/leave to die infront of Clem
Ep 3 - He tells you your criminal past will be a factor in getting a place on his boat
Ep 3 - He tells you to leave Lilly behind to die, both at the motel and on the road
Ep 4 - He drops you again when trying to escape up the fire escape.
Ep 4 - He wills you to let Ben die
Ep 4 - He refuses to help save Clem
He stands accused of hypocrisy, selfishness, racism, murder, alcoholism, cowardice, carelessness, trouble making, disloyalty and of being judgemental and uncaring.
Kenny defenders, make your case for the accused because I'd gladly use him as a zombie bait given his charge sheet.
Ep 2 - He suggests you might be useful at lockpicking because you're "urban"
Ep 2 - He kills Larry as you're trying to save him
Ep 2 - He tells you he'll back you up handling Danny St John, instead he leaves you to die
Ep 3 - He causes a massive argument at the motel over leaving and is the root cause of the paranoia that leads to Carley, Duck and Katjaa dying.
Ep 3 - He once again leaves you to die as you're trapped under a door
Ep 3 - He drops you while trying to get on the truck
Ep 3 - He fucks you over by blabbing about the girl you kill/leave to die infront of Clem
Ep 3 - He tells you your criminal past will be a factor in getting a place on his boat
Ep 3 - He tells you to leave Lilly behind to die, both at the motel and on the road
Ep 4 - He drops you again when trying to escape up the fire escape.
Ep 4 - He wills you to let Ben die
Ep 4 - He refuses to help save Clem
He stands accused of hypocrisy, selfishness, racism, murder, alcoholism, cowardice, carelessness, trouble making, disloyalty and of being judgemental and uncaring.
Kenny defenders, make your case for the accused because I'd gladly use him as a zombie bait given his charge sheet.
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Comments
Larry's death is better than having him around
having Lilly around makes more deaths.
shawn dies anyways so who cares.
he refuses to save clem because you've been a bastard to him.
this is why all the Lilly lovers are pissed.
Kenny is great and does not ration food like someone does.
With Shawn, for all Kenny knew the farm was falling and zombies were approaching from all sides. His reaction to when his family is in danger is to grab em and GTFO, he's sure as hell not going to leave them alone to help someone else. I understand and forgive this and so should you.
His racist remark seems to show a lack of a proper education and something he grew up with in Florida. It doesn't seem offensive and its not like he treats Lee badly or impolitely so I don't really see why you would be so offended.
If you help Larry, you put Duck and Katjaa of risk of a slow and extremely horrible death, being eaten slowly and picked apart by cannibals. Not to mention Kenny's own and everyone else's lives but that probably means less to Kenny. And you do it for some old bastard who punched you after you got him medicine and who is a general dick to everyone. I don't blame Ken for taking the initiative and doing what you couldn't.
Less leave you to die and more doesn't charge a man with a gun. Again I don't blame him. You put Larry above his family, and risked them getting horrible deaths. Not to mention above Kenny who saved your life when Larry tried to kill you.
I refer to my previous point.
Kenny was obviously right about leaving though. The bandits were clearly attacking constantly and when they stopped, it's clear they were planning something. If they had taken Kenny's advice, Duck and Katjaa and Carely would still be alive. The paranoia was about the traitor givin supplies anyway so you are just wrong.
You blame a guy who was recently shot for accidentally dropping you? Nice
Was this in ep 3? I can't exactly remember but I don't recall Clem hearing about the girl.
Well of course it makes a decision. If you have to choose between convicted murderer and normal person to take on the boat, of course you will choose the normal guy. He would be stupid or lying to just say "Aw that's fine. That's not going to affect my decision on who gets left behind, it doesn't even matter" You should be grateful for the honesty. He told my Lee something different though.
Doing so at both time made sense. At the motel, zombies and bandits were approaching and it was chaos. The group is sitting in a vulnerable RV and they had to leave ASAP. Better one die than the RV getting damaged and they all die. On the road, Lilly had just freaking shot Carely for no good reason. She ha clearly gone crazy and was now a loose cannon. He was proved right when you take her and she steals the RV later on aswell.
The guy was shot, what do ya expect? Blaming him for that makes you look mean.
Well duh! Of course he wants you to kill Ben, he just found out that he was indirectly responsible for his family's death. And we know the family is the thing he cared about most in the world. He hasn't even recovered from the tragedy yet, they died pretty recently. Im surprised he never just shot Ben to be honest.
He refuses to help you because all of the above.
Ok, I did my best to address all of you're points. I gotta go to bed, so if another Pro-Kenny can fight his corner, I would really appreciate it.
He pretty much is
Kenny smashed his head in, infront of his daughter and a small child. He didn't even tell Clem to turn away. How difficult would it have been to wait 20 seconds and then crush him if he's a walker? It was a prick move of someone who can't take orders.
Whose fault is that?
Shawn dies because Kenny doesn't help
I saved his child, saved him from the meatlocker, fed his family, shot his zombie child, stopped him from being bit at the start of Ep 4. He's an ungrateful prick
killing Larry has a huge impact on Kenny.
if you kill larry, it doesn't matter to clem if you tell her you couldn't take the zombie risk.
you could calm kenny down at the train instead of fighting him.
shooting duck is helping Kenny so doesn't affect kenny unless you let kenny shoot him.
in ep.1 you can tell him to punch larry.
there are a few more things for him to give you the bro speech and help clem.
Up until the meat locker I backed him over Larry Vs Duck, I played peacemaker in the Leave/Don't Leave argument, I fed him and his child. His "gratitude" was to completely ignore the decision I made to help Larry, smash in Larrys head infront of a child and then leave me for dead against Danny St John. The man has no loyalty whatsoever.
I should have added a poll to this thread.
in the end he could make you a bro speech if you sided with him a 90%.
Larry's death has an impact of 40%
Kenny panicked. He admits as much if you tried to save Shawn instead of Duck, and asks for forgiveness. Should we demonize someone for not always being Superman? He still blames himself for Shawn's death three months later.
The "urban" comment wasn't meant to be racist or offensive. He is ignorant, not racist. He probably truly thought that Lee could do it because he was RAISED to think like that. He wasn't trying to insult Lee, and he apologizes immediately when Lee is offended.
He thought Larry was about to turn. That would ahve resulted in both Lilly and Lee being bitten, as well as possible he and Clementine being killed. Carley/Doug and Ben would have no idea what they were walking into, and would have died along with Kat and Duck because everyone in the meat lcoker had been killed by Larry. Was Larry actually turning into a walker? We don't know. While it might be possible that Kenny killed a man about to be revived, there is an EQUAL chance that he saved the ENTIRE group, including Lee and Clementine.
That was a dick move on his part, no arguement there. But if you helped him with Larry he will save your life, like he saved mine.
He wanted to leave because A) Macon was running out of supplies, and
He didn't leave me under the door. He ran back as soon as he saw what happened and helped me push the door off.
He got shot in the side at close range. He's not invincible.
That's Kenny being Kenny. He is either pissed because you shot the girl, or wants everyone to congradulate you for leaving her and getting more supplies. Even though I shot her, he still saved me when the door fell on me.
He never said that to me. He actually said that my criminal past didn't matter, and that I didn't owe ANYBODY an explanation. Cause he's my friend. And actually, why SHOULDN'T Lee murdering a man before the walkers be a factor? If Lee killed before, there's every possibility he will kill again. I'd do the same thing.
He says that at the motel because the place is being overrun by bandits and walkers. Because the group didn't get out of there fast enough, Duck got bitten. He says it on the side of the road because Lilly just MURDERED another member of the group in cold blood, with no evidence against them. Say what you will, but Kenny had far more reason for dropping the salt-lick on Larry than Lilly did to pull that trigger.
Again, Episode 4 takes place only 12 hours after 3 ends. He was shot in the side at close range a little over a week ago.
Ben's deal with the bandits led them to attack, which drew walkers to the motel, which resulted in Duck being bitten. Duck being bitten resulted in Katjaa commiting suicide. Ben's deal caused Duck to get bitten and Katjaa to commit suicide. Ep4 happens 12 hours after Ep3 ends. Kat and Duck have literally been dead for a little over 24 hours when Ben, after putting them all in danger AGAIN, confesses with walkers beating down the door. If you saw the chance to let the person who killed your entire family die, one day after it happened, wouldn't you take it?
He came to save Clem in my game. His exact words were "You can Clem are the only family I have left. Bitten or not, I'm with you to the end".
Many of your "charges" only occur if certain actions are taken at certain points, and some are unfounded completely (racism and alcoholism). He's ignorant, not racist. He began drinking after finding out that the boat, his only goal after his family died, was gone. On top of finding that out only 1 day after his wife and child both died in front of his eyes. Are you forgetting who picked you up off the floor in the pharmacy? In episode 1, when Larry tried to kill you? That was Kenny. And he does it even if you save Shawn and side with Larry in the argument.
you could write a book :P
Kenny is an awesome guy.
one of the most probable reasons this threat was created is for the Lilly lovers.
there is no way that I could explain this at all.
Kenny's there for you if you're there for him. He's not a perfect person, but his flaws make him an interesting character. Yeah he's said some racist stuff, but honestly I thought Larry was far more racist for constantly calling Lee "boy". Yeah, he's had some cowardly and petty moments depending on your actions, but who hasn't? Every character reacts to you differently depending on how you treated them.
Except for Carley and Doug apparently.
P.S. I also really love Lilly, she's probably my favorite female character. Just wanted to say that.
He told me I could go die on my own because I decided not to murder a man who was having a heart attack
For Lee yes, no one else though. Larry was annoying, but he was strong and pulled his weight.
Lilly only killed because of Kenny.
Because of Kenny. The only reason Shaun died for me was because Kenny left us like the coward he is.
"You've been a bastard to me, so I'm going to let an 8 year old girl be kidnapped at the hands of some guy who could be a rapist for all we know." Yeah, that TOTALLY is a nice guy attitude right there!
Because Kenny murdered her dad and caused her to go nuts?
Wow. Do you even know what rationing food does? It allows us to LIVE by having food LAST! To call Kenny great by shortening our food supply is just pure fanboyism. Just like the Carly nutjobs.
When Kenny's at his lowest, he's a pretty terrible person. He kills people who might not be threats, leaves people to die, murders people for revenge, abandons little girls to kidnappers, and he only gets along or cares about people when they do what he wants how he wants.
At his best, he saves people when no one else will, makes tough decisions to protect the group, keeps the group going with purpose, and becomes family with strangers, loyal to the end.
To properly judge Kenny, you'd have to look at whether Kenny at his worst seems worse than other people would react, which is impossible to know. Everyone in TWD has betrayed each other, lied, and done awful things. If other people had as much to lose as Kenny and had lost as much, would they be any different?
So, I think people just have their opinions, not really any evidence. However, I think the "true" Kenny is self serving, and that he's at best conditionally loyal as long as people keep paying their dues. Kenny doesn't have compassion for others. He only cares about his own. If you get him to accept you, he'll back you up, but it's conditional. You'll always be an outsider, and he'll always be willing to betray you if it would help his family. For example, if the bandits had approached the motel and demanded that the group hand over one of their people to be a slave in exchange for being left alone, Kenny would have wanted to do it, so long as it wasn't his family.
Kenny is the kind of guy who wants to feel like he's forced into doing bad things, like when he killed Larry. Or like when he takes the supplies from the car, because that's what you have to do to survive. He's perfectly willing to do bad things; he just needs a pretext so that he doesn't have to feel responsible or face his own lack of moral compass. This is why the confrontation with Ben is so important. As Kenny moves from being forced to do bad things to doing them without pretense, he's becoming more of a monster, more of what he truly is.
In my game, Kenny is really nice, but if I didn't side with him for once, he just decides to be a dick head.
There is no way you can judge Kenny, because he is different to everyone.
After all, it IS an apocolypse! JEEZ!
Yeah, although in my play through Kenny is a bit on and off with me, everyone needs to let off some steam XD, Ben reaches for the bottle and Lee looks at him like 'WTF' and Bens like okay okay.
Killing someone who might be a threat isn't necessarily a bad thing. He was looking out for his family, not like he smashed Larry's head in for the hell of it.
Also when does he murder someone for revenge? Can't think of anyone.
Sure he abandoned you're Lee's Clem, but think about what he's gone through. Lost his entire family and was under stress since episode 1. He was the one constantly pushing for the group to leave and get a boat, fighting Lilly tooth and nail. The boat becomes all that he has left and he concentrates on it fully. Finally it arrives and they get the stuff and BAM. Clem kidnapped and now you have the choice of risking the last hurdle and going on a stupid suicide mission or guarding the boat. Add the fact he hates your Lee and its easy to see why he didn't help.
If by "paying your dues" you mean not makin stupid decisions that risk his family then sure. Besides you don't have to back him up on everything, just Larry where it matters. And family comes first for Kenny. Its completely natural. You thin Lilly doesn't put her dad above everyone else? I saw a poll where people said they would let everyone else in the group die before Clem. Also Kenny is one of the few people to have lost what he did in the game. Lilly is the only one like him and she went crazy.
You make it sound like Kenny enjoyed doing what he did and jus needed a reason and that's pretty obviously wrong. Did you see his face after Larry. He does like to have someone with him when he makes the bad and hard choices and I don't mind. Finally you call him a monster for wanting Ben dead. The guys family died like a few days ago, and Ben stands up and admits its his fault. Of course he wants him dead! Loads of people wanted him dead for what happened to Carely and we didn't know her that well
When we got to the drugstore Kenny needed help with a man that wanted to throw his son out to die just because he was afraid. Since the apocalypse has only started that day most people would have their humanity intact, and I was not going to let a man throw out a fathers son to die, the thing is we had no idea what was going on and I played with this attitude when I first played my game with no turning back on decisions.
I am not going to list anymore points why I feel that Kenny is a good guy or a bad guy, it has been regurgitated more than once on this forum, in fact there is a whole thread dedicated to trashing Kenny's decisions or attitude.
Kenny and Lee are brothers to the end!
I swear in episode 1 shawn said "it's not like it is in the movies" maybe there are zombie movies or he may be referring to killing people and movies
Ep 2 - He suggests you might be useful at lockpicking because you're "urban"
Ep 2 - He kills Larry as you're trying to save him
Ep 2 - He tells you he'll back you up handling Danny St John, instead he leaves you to die
Ep 3 - He causes a massive argument at the motel over leaving and is the root cause of the paranoia that leads to Carley, Duck and Katjaa dying.
Ep 3 - He once again leaves you to die as you're trapped under a door
Ep 3 - He drops you while trying to get on the truck
Ep 3 - He fucks you over by blabbing about the girl you kill/leave to die infront of Clem
Ep 3 - He tells you your criminal past will be a factor in getting a place on his boat
Ep 3 - He tells you to leave Lilly behind to die, both at the motel and on the road
Ep 4 - He drops you again when trying to escape up the fire escape.
Ep 4 - He wills you to let Ben die
Ep 4 - He refuses to help save Clem
He stands accused of hypocrisy, selfishness, racism, murder, alcoholism, cowardice, carelessness, trouble making, disloyalty and of being judgemental and uncaring.
Kenny defenders, make your case for the accused because I'd gladly use him as a zombie bait given his charge sheet.
Most of the things you accuse Kenny have done, why you was not sided with him in a good part of the game, he has reason to be angry with you (Anyway, he helped me a lot, and help me to find clem).
It's the apocalypse! What do you expect!?
Ep 2 - He kills Larry as you're trying to save him
I sided with Kenny...
Ep 2 - He tells you he'll back you up handling Danny St John, instead he leaves you to die
He goes to get Duck. He helps you with Danny.
Ep 3 - He once again leaves you to die as you're trapped under a door
He helps you!
Ep 3 - He drops you while trying to get on the truck
He was shot.
Ep 4 - He drops you again when trying to escape up the fire escape.
*facepalm*
Ep 4 - He refuses to help save Clem
I'm beginning to feel like you just never sided with him. He automatically came with me because I'd been nice to him
1.There's no excuse for him running out on Shawn, none at all, Duck was safe.
2.There's no excuse for saying he'll help you with Danny, then leaving you to die
3.There's no excuse for doing nothing and leaving you to die underneath a door
But mostly
4.There is absolutely no fucking excuse for abandoning a kidnapped child, simply because you don't like her carer. That is utterly despicable.
My crime in all this and his justification for being a complete prick? I didn't let him murder someone and wanted to stay somewhere safe.
Fuck Kenny.
Perhaps try writing up your post in notepad and then just copy/paste it into a reply? Might save you the hassle of editing from being logged out.
PS: tl;dr
Hmm, let me try again. Kenny isn't driven by a sense of right or wrong. He's driven by protecting his own, as you say, and I agree that other characters put their family first, too. However, Kenny's the kind of guy who always has an excuse for why he has to do the wrong thing, instead of the guy who finds a reason to do the right thing. That's what I mean when I say that Kenny has no moral compass and is in danger of becoming a monster, especially now that he doesn't have his family (and Katjaa in particular) to be his conscience.
Kenny is the type of person who says ...
... we have to let the girl be eaten alive by zombies BECAUSE it's too dangerous
... we have to kill Larry BECAUSE there's too much risk
... we have to steal these supplies BECAUSE we have to survive
Kenny sees the necessity in doing harm to others.
Also, think about Kenny's boat plan. Kenny was upfront with Lee from the very beginning that maybe not everyone would fit on the boat. Does Kenny care that people will be left behind to die? Maybe, but that's not what's important to him, as long as his family is taken care of.
So, if the boat had been there and there wasn't enough room, Kenny would have decided
... we have to leave people behind BECAUSE they won't fit on the boat
See? Kenny always finds an excuse to do the wrong thing. He is loyal to those he cares about, but always makes sure that a couple people are defined outside his group, so that he knows who to throw under the bus if the time comes.
I think that since Kenny is so tribalistic that he will only descend further into violence as he finds more and more reasons why the needs of his tribe necessitate doing the wrong thing by other people.
Put another way, imagine if Kenny had the St Johns farm. I think Kenny would cannibalize people BECAUSE that's what he needed to do for his family.
I think some of the other characters at this point still try to do the right thing, while Kenny increasingly does the wrong thing and justifies it. If he's already fallen this far in a couple months, how much worse will he get? In some playthroughs, he's already a danger to Clem:
... we have to leave Clem behind BECAUSE the boat is more important
Fortunately he's not as far gone as that in everyone's playthrough, but I don't think Kenny has enough moral fiber to last much longer without being an outright danger to people in the group.
Larry tried to kill me, Kenny saved me. Thats all I needed, Kenny is my man.
How do you know Duck was safe? It's not like zombies couldn't have been aproaching from all sides and were about to overrun the farm. Hindsight is 20/20
He helped me with Danny. Anyway he was pretty pissed at your Lee and wasn't going to charge a man with a gun to save his life. Danny could have easily turned and shot him, like how Kenny was shot by Andy.
You're Lee risked his family's lives and risked them getting eaten for Larry. He pretty much hates your Lee. Also the room was filling with zombies and its better for one to escape than none. Just because he doesn't go Rambo and dives in to save youre Lee and lift a heavy board while zombies approach does not make him a bastard.
And I agree number 4 is pretty bad. But you are basically inviting him to go on a
Suicide mission. Walkie Talkie Guy seems to be constantly watching them and is completely confident. They have to hunt through walker filled Savannah with no leads in the hope of finding Clem.
My Kenny saved me from Larry, helped me with Danny, was shot when he charged Andy, helped me when caught under the door and didnt need to be asked to help rescue Clem. Hell, I disnt even need to ask, he was coming with me after Clem and wasnt having it any other way.
Since Kenny left the boat to help me find Clem and had sympathy I think he does feel empathy for other people. And while he doesn't concentrate on other people and is constantly thinking of survival doesn't necessarily make him a bastard. Sure he makes the smart but cold hearted choices but that doesn't necessarily make him evil. Is he brave or heroic? Not really but then that's probably why he survived so long, by driving past others who could use help. Not being a hero doesn't make you a bad person. I agree with him on the three decisions anyway, would I necessarily turn to cannibalism? It's a pretty huge jump from take food from car whose owners are probably dead to eat others to survive.
Besides how is Kenny a danger to Clem, let alone anyone else? None of his decisions so far has put anyone in danger, they are normally comcerned with keeping people safe. Lee's that save Larry put people in danger to do the "right" thing. Refusing or failing to help doesn't make him a danger anyway, otherwise Ben is a huge danger. I think people get all dramatic when talking about Kenny and talk about him eventually murderin others but think about this. If Kenny didn't shoot Ben with the shotgun in the bell tower soon after hearing what he did, I don't think he will ever kill someone in anger or for truly cold hearted bandit style survival.
Yeah the second thing you said. Rick Kirkman said that there was no zombie stuff about so it built up the characters fear even more, and Telltale would not of gone against that (well I hope) because it would just be crappy lol. But good point, I hope Shawn meant killing and murdering etc not zombie movies.
Maybe he could have been talking about killing in general but we'll never know
and no zombie fiction thats weird because zombies were part of african culture they used voodoo dolls which was one of the origins so that never happened
While true, we do know how he reacts to what you do, and that is always the same. He winds up hating you and getting pissed off horribly because you decided to not murder an old man. That is true regardless of how you played.