You can link everyone to every death, that's the problem with the whole "Ben killed everyone" line of thinking.
Take Lee for example, from the very beginning would the cop have crashed into that walker and died if Lee hadn't killed the senator and needed to be driven to the prison? and as a result would any of what happened afterwards have happened without Lee there to influence things?
Care to fully explain how everyone is linked to every death?
If Ben never traded with the bandits, Duck would've never got bitten and Katjaa would've never killed herself and Kenny would still have something to live for.
If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly wouldn't have shot Carley or Doug. And Lilly would've never abandoned the group or be abandoned by the group.
If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers.
If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. I didn't like her much, though.
If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself.
Ben's linked directly to majority of the deaths in this game. Get over it. I'm sick of people seriously trying to defend him. If you like him, fine, but that doesn't mean he's not an extremely useless character. There's a reason some people hate Ben more than Larry AND Campman.
Care to fully explain how everyone is linked to every death?
If Ben never traded with the bandits, Duck would've never got bitten and Katjaa would've never killed herself and Kenny would still have something to live for.
If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly wouldn't have shot Carley or Doug. And Lilly would've never abandoned the group or be abandoned by the group.
If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers.
If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. I didn't like her much, though.
If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself.
Ben's linked directly to majority of the deaths in this game. Get over it. I'm sick of people seriously trying to defend him. If you like him, fine, but that doesn't mean he's not an extremely useless character. There's a reason some people hate Ben more than Larry AND Campman.
I already linked Lee. I'm just as sick of people like you making insane links to ben and the death of the every character in the game.
Lets go through your hilariously poor conspiracy theory laden examples:
If Ben never traded with the bandits they'd have attacked earlier, as they eventually did, and could have killed EVERYONE.
If ben had confessed Lilly would have shot him, Doug would have still put himself in the way and been killed, carly still thinks she's a scared little girl. Lilly killed Doug/Carly, no one else.
Chuck made the decision to intervene, he could have just stood by too. Alternatively, we've been teaching Clem to take care of herself for four episodes, it's as much her fault for freezing up.
If Brie had pushed one of the many objects in front of the door instead of using her own body like an idiot she'd still be alive.
Kenny made the decision to kill himself, nothing Ben said would have changed that. Any idiot could have just shot Ben and left long before those walkers made it, Kenny wanted to die.
People like you blame a woman for being raped, instead of the rapist who raped her. Zombies killed Duck, Katjaa killed herself, Lilly/Zombies killed Doug/Carly, Zombies killed Chuck, Zombies killed Brie, Zombies killed Kenny. End of story.
Kenny - "Remember what Ben said, gotta destroy the brain...
Holy shit, now that I think about it, he has gotten everyone killed (Since Ep. 2). Indirectly of course. The first victim was Larry and the bandit attack caused 3 more deaths.
Care to fully explain how everyone is linked to every death?
If Ben never traded with the bandits, Duck would've never got bitten and Katjaa would've never killed herself and Kenny would still have something to live for.
If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly wouldn't have shot Carley or Doug. And Lilly would've never abandoned the group or be abandoned by the group.
If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers.
If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. I didn't like her much, though.
If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself.
Ben's linked directly to majority of the deaths in this game. Get over it. I'm sick of people seriously trying to defend him. If you like him, fine, but that doesn't mean he's not an extremely useless character. There's a reason some people hate Ben more than Larry AND Campman.
Okay, I shall try.
If Ben never traded with the bandits, they would've probably killed him and attacked the group a lot earlier, and who knows, perhaps with even more people, which would most likely end in the deaths of everyone. And keep in mind that the bandits only attacked when they did because Lee removed the supplies from the place they were supposed to pick it up, and he only did that because Lilly was paranoid and found out someone was stealing supplies from them, and she only went paranoid because Kenny crushed her dad's head in front of her.
If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly would have shot him in his face or kicked him out of the group because she was pretty unstable. And I'm pretty sure Carley and Doug would have stood up for Ben anyways, because like Doug said: "Evidence or not, this isn't right!". Who knows what an unstable woman would have done then when people disagreed with her?
If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers. That's mostly true. But that also falls on Lee, why wasn't he there protecting her? Why wasn't she close to him? There are a lot of questions you gotta ask yourself.
If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. That's kind of true, that was a pretty stupid move on Ben's part. But as much as Ben's confession had a horrible timing, the timing on Kenny's vote to kick him out was just as horrible, which kept everyone in the room for more time than they should've stayed there, and ended up in Brie's death.
If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself. Okay, it was Kenny's decision to stay back (keep in mind his weight also broke the balcony), I really can't understand why people blame Ben here. It's not his fault he fell. He was probably scared as fuck, the way he says "OH GOD, DON'T LET THEM GET TO ME" shows how he didn't want to die there.
Seriously, blaming everything on only one character is even more annoying than 'people defending him'. He is indeed linked to many character's deaths, but so are a lot of other people, including Lee. The main reason most people started hating him is because of Carley and Doug, who stood up for him, by the way.
I already linked Lee. I'm just as sick of people like you making insane links to ben and the death of the every character in the game.
Lets go through your hilariously poor conspiracy theory laden examples:
If Ben never traded with the bandits they'd have attacked earlier, as they eventually did, and could have killed EVERYONE.
If ben had confessed Lilly would have shot him, Doug would have still put himself in the way and been killed, carly still thinks she's a scared little girl. Lilly killed Doug/Carly, no one else.
Chuck made the decision to intervene, he could have just stood by too. Alternatively, we've been teaching Clem to take care of herself for four episodes, it's as much her fault for freezing up.
If Brie had pushed one of the many objects in front of the door instead of using her own body like an idiot she'd still be alive.
Kenny made the decision to kill himself, nothing Ben said would have changed that. Any idiot could have just shot Ben and left long before those walkers made it, Kenny wanted to die.
People like you blame a woman for being raped, instead of the rapist who raped her. Zombies killed Duck, Katjaa killed herself, Lilly/Zombies killed Doug/Carly, Zombies killed Chuck, Zombies killed Brie, Zombies killed Kenny. End of story.
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Hold the fucking phone. Don't you dare accuse me of saying that it's a woman's fault if she's raped. I'm someone who's volunteered at women's shelters, so by you having the audacity to even say that depresses me. That's probably the most nonsensical and offensive analogy I've ever heard. We're talking about a fictional character in a video game, calm the fuck down and chill with the ludicrous accusations.
I don't even wanna debate with you, I'm sorry if you felt offended at my comments, but it's just a fucking game and I was just openly discussing it with you. No need to say that I condone rape and that I blame victims.
And that comparison doesn't even work, I would have to be blaming Carley for her death rather than Ben.
If Ben never traded with the bandits, they would've probably killed him and attacked the group a lot earlier, and who knows, perhaps with even more people, which would most likely end in the deaths of everyone. And keep in mind that the bandits only attacked when they did because Lee removed the supplies from the place they were supposed to pick it up, and he only did that because Lilly was paranoid and found out someone was stealing supplies from them, and she only went paranoid because Kenny crushed her dad's head in front of her.
If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly would have shot him in his face or kicked him out of the group because she was pretty unstable. And I'm pretty sure Carley and Doug would have stood up for Ben anyways, because like Doug said: "Evidence or not, this isn't right!". Who knows what an unstable woman would have done then when people disagreed with her?
If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers. That's mostly true. But that also falls on Lee, why wasn't he there protecting her? Why wasn't she close to him? There are a lot of questions you gotta ask yourself.
If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. That's kind of true, that was a pretty stupid move on Ben's part. But as much as Ben's confession had a horrible timing, the timing on Kenny's vote to kick him out was just as horrible, which kept everyone in the room for more time than they should've stayed there, and ended up in Brie's death.
If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself. Okay, it was Kenny's decision to stay back (keep in mind his weight also broke the balcony), I really can't understand why people blame Ben here. It's not his fault he fell. He was probably scared as fuck, the way he says "OH GOD, DON'T LET THEM GET TO ME" shows how he didn't want to die there.
Seriously, blaming everything on only one character is even more annoying than 'people defending him'. He is indeed linked to many character's deaths, but so are a lot of other people, including Lee. The main reason most people started hating him is because of Carley and Doug, who stood up for him, by the way.
You make some good arguments. I'll admit, the Kenny one is a stretch. I recant that one. I still stick by the others, but I'll like to address your first point about the bandits. Lee says the bandits gave them hell. I think they could've held their own at least until the RV was fixed. And, as far as I knew, no one had been injured when the bandits attacked. I'm assuming Ben heard the whole story about what happened the the St. Johns, were Mark was attacked. Bandits attacked them despite having a deal, so Ben should've known they couldn't be trusted.
I don't like Ben because he's dead weight as a character. I saved him because I didn't support the Crawford, but seriously, what's the appeal of him? Are you just defending him to defend him?
You make some good arguments. I'll admit, the Kenny one is a stretch. I recant that one. I still stick by the others, but I'll like to address your first point about the bandits. Lee says the bandits gave them hell. I think they could've held their own at least until the RV was fixed. And, as far as I knew, no one had been injured when the bandits attacked. I'm assuming Ben heard the whole story about what happened the the St. Johns, were Mark was attacked. Bandits attacked them despite having a deal, so Ben should've known they couldn't be trusted.
I don't like Ben because he's dead weight as a character. I saved him because I didn't support the Crawford, but seriously, what's the appeal of him? Are you just defending him to defend him?
It's probably due to the fact I can relate to him, being a teenager myself. And I don't know how you feel about this, but the way everyone treats him just isn't right. Sure he can't pull his own weight, but he is trying his best and he's not a bad person, he's just a bit dumb at times.
I defend him because in his shoes I'd probably be just as scared, and I'd want someone to stick by me like my Lee did for him. And like I said, I don't think it's fair to put the blame of those things solely on him, because if you look at the situation as a whole, you'll see that these stuff happen because of multiple reasons, not only because of Ben. At least that's how I see it. And I don't really see a reason for playing the blame game, so I'm able to forgive those characters easily for making those mistakes when I try to look at the situation from their angle.
I always assumed the group was on high alert since the bandits attacked constantly every day(arrow shafts in walls), but when Ben started trading with them, the attacks stopped and the group let their guard down. Then, when the bandits attacked suddenly and out of the blue, they weren't expecting it because they hadn't attacked for several days.
At the very least, i think Ben gave the bandits the element of surprise. Sure, they might have still led a full raid like they did, but the group would be expecting it and would be more prepared for it.
I liked Ben myself, but even he admits that it's his fault.
If Lee had found the stash, left it and just observed who went to collect, they would have found out about the bandits too. Or if he watched out for who went to put it out there the next time. There are quite a few what if's that could change a situation.
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Hold the fucking phone. Don't you dare accuse me of saying that it's a woman's fault if she's raped. I'm someone who's volunteered at women's shelters, so by you having the audacity to even say that depresses me. That's probably the most nonsensical and offensive analogy I've ever heard. We're talking about a fictional character in a video game, calm the fuck down and chill with the ludicrous accusations.
I don't even wanna debate with you, I'm sorry if you felt offended at my comments, but it's just a fucking game and I was just openly discussing it with you. No need to say that I condone rape and that I blame victims.
And that comparison doesn't even work, I would have to be blaming Carley for her death rather than Ben.
That's fine, I can assume you have nothing valid to respond with. The analogy is valid no matter how much it offends you, you're blaming the victims instead of those who actually commited those acts, it's sickening.
You may have volunteered at womens shelters, good for you...
That's fine, I can assume you have nothing valid to respond with. The analogy is valid no matter how much it offends you, you're blaming the victims instead of those who actually commited those acts, it's sickening.
You may have volunteered at womens shelters, good for you...
I lived in one.
I would've went back and forth with you until you accused me of condoning rape. Like I said, it's a game, completely different tone than real life. People wished Kenny would die, does that mean they support murder and death in real life? No. People killed characters in the game, does that mean they will kill in real life? No. So me connecting other characters' deaths to Ben means absolutely nothing when it comes to my stance on real life issues.
Pre-Episode 5 Ben supporters "Ben's gonna redeem himself, all you Ben haters will see."
Instead, ben falls to his death, which causes Kenny to get killed. And thus saving absouley no one. And in my playthrough, he lost the boat to Vernon. So he was a useless character from the start, his antics in Episode 3 moved the plot along, but not in a good direction.
Post-Episode 5 Ben supporters "It's not about redemption, he apologized and was forgiven by Kenny, that's enough."
Sure, whatever.
Hahaha EXACTLY! Thank you for pointing out that psychology. I find it hard to believe that all these holier than thou "look I saved Ben" people didn't MOSTLY do it because they thought he would redeem himself in some grand way. When that didn't happen (which, good on TTG - would've been very out of character), they changed their spiel.
Hahaha EXACTLY! Thank you for pointing out that psychology. I find it hard to believe that all these holier than thou "look I saved Ben" people didn't MOSTLY do it because they thought he would redeem himself in some grand way. When that didn't happen (which, good on TTG - would've been very out of character), they changed their spiel.
I saved him cause most of us would have probably done similar things in the same scenario
I would've went back and forth with you until you accused me of condoning rape. Like I said, it's a game, completely different tone than real life. People wished Kenny would die, does that mean they support murder and death in real life? No. People killed characters in the game, does that mean they will kill in real life? No. So me connecting other characters' deaths to Ben means absolutely nothing when it comes to my stance on real life issues.
That's unfortunate.
No you wouldn't have, you simply have nothing to respond with, you know your stance on the matter of Ben is asinine at best and so you attempt to avoid the entire issue by getting all hot under the collar like it means something.
You blame the victims in this game, you blame the victims in real life. Don't give me that "it's different" crap, it shows the type of person you are. I don't see you blaming the bandits for attacking or coercing Ben to cooperate, I don't see you blaming Lilly for shooting Carly/Doug, no, you blame Ben.
I know why too, you're too much of a coward to blame those you can't see brought to justice, but Ben, he's still around, you can punish him. You don't care if you blame the right people or not.
I never expect Ben to redeem himself. I wanted him to survive. From the bell tower onwards, I was sure he wouldn't. Determinants character don't go far.
If Ben never traded with the bandits, they would've probably killed him and attacked the group a lot earlier, and who knows, perhaps with even more people, which would most likely end in the deaths of everyone. And keep in mind that the bandits only attacked when they did because Lee removed the supplies from the place they were supposed to pick it up, and he only did that because Lilly was paranoid and found out someone was stealing supplies from them, and she only went paranoid because Kenny crushed her dad's head in front of her.
If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly would have shot him in his face or kicked him out of the group because she was pretty unstable. And I'm pretty sure Carley and Doug would have stood up for Ben anyways, because like Doug said: "Evidence or not, this isn't right!". Who knows what an unstable woman would have done then when people disagreed with her?
If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers. That's mostly true. But that also falls on Lee, why wasn't he there protecting her? Why wasn't she close to him? There are a lot of questions you gotta ask yourself.
If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. That's kind of true, that was a pretty stupid move on Ben's part. But as much as Ben's confession had a horrible timing, the timing on Kenny's vote to kick him out was just as horrible, which kept everyone in the room for more time than they should've stayed there, and ended up in Brie's death.
If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself. Okay, it was Kenny's decision to stay back (keep in mind his weight also broke the balcony), I really can't understand why people blame Ben here. It's not his fault he fell. He was probably scared as fuck, the way he says "OH GOD, DON'T LET THEM GET TO ME" shows how he didn't want to die there.
Seriously, blaming everything on only one character is even more annoying than 'people defending him'. He is indeed linked to many character's deaths, but so are a lot of other people, including Lee. The main reason most people started hating him is because of Carley and Doug, who stood up for him, by the way.
1. So he couldn't have told the others about the plan and possibly avoid the entire mess? The reason they attacked was because Lee took the supplies from the agreed trading location. By not telling the others of the plan he unknowingly helped cause the attack. It's possible that the others would have agreed with Ben in the first place and avoided that attack, or at the very least get the others to be more prepared.
2. Which all could have been avoided had he informed the group about his earlier plan instead of keeping it a secret. No need for anyone to stand up to him and get shot by an unnerved women.
3. It doesn't fall on Lee since he was busy fighting zombies to notice that she was behind. Ben was right next her, and could have saved her. There is no excuse for Ben's action.
4. It does not matter what Kenny did because it is also a result of Ben's failure to mention the fact that he helped out the bandits and indirectly causing them to surprise attack the group which led to the death of Kenny''s family. Also had Ben not removed the ax in the first place none of that would have happened.
5. Agree that it was Kenny's decision. You can't really blame Ben for this one.
No you wouldn't have, you simply have nothing to respond with, you know your stance on the matter of Ben is asinine at best and so you attempt to avoid the entire issue by getting all hot under the collar like it means something.
You blame the victims in this game, you blame the victims in real life. Don't give me that "it's different" crap, it shows the type of person you are. I don't see you blaming the bandits for attacking or coercing Ben to cooperate, I don't see you blaming Lilly for shooting Carly/Doug, no, you blame Ben.
I know why too, you're too much of a coward to blame those you can't see brought to justice, but Ben, he's still around, you can punish him. You don't care if you blame the right people or not.
I just defended my positions with another poster who was much more polite than you. Just sayin'. And I even agreed with him on one point and recanted my statement. Ben isn't to blame for Kenny's death.
The thread was discussing Ben's connections to deaths. At least, that's what the posters were doing at the time. I simply outlined them. Of course Lilly killed Carley, but to ignore the motivations behind that is absurd. The thread is about Ben, so his actions and consequences will be highlighted. Just like Campman could blame Lee for talking his family's food and indirectly killing them, we can highlight Ben's actions as well.
It is different. Thanks for equating real life with video games. You basically put video games and rape in the same league as one another. Congratulations.
My opinion on a piece of fiction doesn't reflect who I am as a person. I enjoy horror (Walking Dead for example) that doesn't mean I enjoy people being terrorized in real life.
How is Ben a victim, exactly? Please, explain that to me.
How is Ben a victim, exactly? Please, explain that to me.
Well nobody cared about him, he tried to do his best (even if it wasn't much) and nobody gave him some kind of recognition, Lilly and Kenny wanted to kill him,... Shall I continue?
Well nobody cared about him, he tried to do his best (even if it wasn't much) and nobody gave him some kind of recognition, Lilly and Kenny wanted to kill him,... Shall I continue?
I backed Ben up. I fed him food, I constantly talked to him, and I even defended him against Lilly along with Carley. I supported him. I voted to keep him. I saved him. I brought him with me at the end of Episode 4. Lee and Clem were Ben's biggest supporters, so you can't act like people didn't care.
Kenny and Lilly really had nothing against Ben until Lilly suspected him of dealing with the bandits, which turned out to be true. Kenny didn't truly hate Ben until Ben choose to tell Kenny about the bandits and how it affected Katjaa and Duck.
In relation to Carley, Doug and Duck, who's deaths he indirectly caused. How is he a victim?
That's like me setting up a faulty bridge, someone walking across it only to fall to their deaths. How am I the victim?
How are you a victim? Anyway Ben is a teenager, a particular insecure person in a particularly insecure period of life. And this is without zombies and psycho bitches with guns. Except for Lee and Doug/Carley, nobody supported him. You are right, he screws up way too much, but making him a flawed character in contrast with other people makes him believable.
Btw, the hatchet and confessing to Kenny at the worst moment possible was stupid even for him
That's fine, I can assume you have nothing valid to respond with. The analogy is valid no matter how much it offends you, you're blaming the victims instead of those who actually commited those acts, it's sickening.
You may have volunteered at womens shelters, good for you...
I lived in one.
I agreed with your points originally, you can spend all day pointing out characters who could have indirectly killed someone. I do think that if a walker kills you, even if someone else causes it, its a walker that kills you. But seriously....your comment that you made about him was so out of line. You don't know that, and the analogy is ridiculous. Remember it is just a game that we all are talking about, and there is no reason to be mean to someone else over it.
People like you blame a woman for being raped, instead of the rapist who raped her. Zombies killed Duck, Katjaa killed herself, Lilly/Zombies killed Doug/Carly, Zombies killed Chuck, Zombies killed Brie, Zombies killed Kenny. End of story.
Whoa. Shit. I didn't see this part. You need to chill the hell out with the ad hominem attacks about someone's character.
Not all of us that saved Ben were holier than thou types that said he would redeem himself. I said before episode 5 that I had saved Ben in Crawford, and I wondered what horrible death awaited him in 5. I never thought he would redeem himself, but I didn't think he wasn't worth saving. It isn't as though he ran around slitting people's throats in their sleep or something.
He is a kid. His brain isn't even fully formed. He has lived through his worst nightmare for months prior to when we meet him. He has seen friends and mentors die, has not had contact with his family, has most likely been running and hiding with very little food and sleep, all of which affect his judgement. He did not see the consequences of his actions the way others would. Neither, for example, does the teenage boy trying to "surf" on top of a buddy's car; he thinks it will be a blast, the neighbors think the idiot will end up roadkill.
It does not mean that he couldn't learn from his mistakes, and if given the chance, grow up to be a useful member of any group. So I didn't take that chance away from him.
Well, Ben did at least do SOMETHING. He DID prove he wasn't a coward by standing up to Kenny. Kenny, the man who's family died because of him, the man who on several occasions wanted Ben to die and probably would have dropped Ben without a moment's hesitation if he were in Lee's place at Crawford. He made Kenny see Ben's side of things and finally realize how terrible he'd been acting toward Ben. And in the end, Kenny actually forgave the kid who was responsible for his family's death. He even elected to try and save the kid even when it seemed impossible, and knew it would very well likely result in his death as well.
And, if you notice, during the mansion siege Ben actually sounds confident. He's probably afraid, yeah, but he has control of it. He doesn't let the fear dictate his actions because he knows that everyone else is counting on him to step up and help get everyone out of the mess they were in. He actually keeps a cool head, kills walkers (possibly his first) and even saves Lee's gun after it fell. I think that he redeemed himself by actually being a productive member of the group, not panicking, and pulling his weight. Hell, he doesn't even seem to be begging for Kenny and Lee to save him in the alley, he just doesn't want to get ripped apart. Sure he didn't save everyone's lives, or kill a million walkers, but him turning his act around and gaining his confidence was enough for someone like Ben.
How are you a victim? Anyway Ben is a teenager, a particular insecure person in a particularly insecure period of life. And this is without zombies and psycho bitches with guns. Except for Lee and Doug/Carley, nobody supported him. You are right, he screws up way too much, but making him a flawed character in contrast with other people makes him believable.
Btw, the hatchet and confessing to Kenny at the worst moment possible was stupid even for him
Oh no, no, don't get me wrong, Ben is a very believable character. But that doesn't mean I have to like him and sympathize with him, lol. I think Ben's one of those love or hate characters. Kinda like Lilly, who I love but people hate.
I agreed with your points originally, you can spend all day pointing out characters who could have indirectly killed someone. I do think that if a walker kills you, even if someone else causes it, its a walker that kills you. But seriously....your comment that you made about him was so out of line. You don't know that, and the analogy is ridiculous. Remember it is just a game that we all are talking about, and there is no reason to be mean to someone else over it.
Thanks mate. I'm just here for a debate, I didn't want it to get so serious.
I feel bad for Ben. Everyone in the group thought he was a joke and the few people who actually cared for him he either got them killed (Carley/Doug, Katjaa) or were children (Clementine). The bell scene actually kind of implies that he either thinks people hate him so much that they want him dead or he wishes for himself to die because he doesn't want to get anyone else killed. It's really sad, I feel for the kid, I'd probably act similar to him in a zombie apocalypse situation. That's why I saved him.
Still he should have confessed to what he did. He was lying to his friends, yes he had friends at that point. Carley liked him, probably felt bad for him, I'm guessing Doug would feel the same way. Katjaa was probably motherly towards him and I have a sneaking suspicion that Clem had a tiny crush on him. I get it, he was scared of Lilly but as Carley said:
"I think people should know... Some people might be pissed but it'll be a farcry if they don't hear it from you... There will never be a good time, but there will also be a lot of bad ones. And this doesn't seem like one of them."
Wouldn't Ben becoming the hero and redeeming himself by saving some one's life or even sacrificing his life so another could live be too much of a "saving Ben is the good/right choice and/or path"? I don't think that's what the walking dead is about.
I saved Ben because I didn't want him to die(I did tell him to stay behind later) not because I hoped that the game would reward me later(which it shouldn't) or that I was taking the "paragon" path.
Comments
Care to fully explain how everyone is linked to every death?
Ben's linked directly to majority of the deaths in this game. Get over it. I'm sick of people seriously trying to defend him. If you like him, fine, but that doesn't mean he's not an extremely useless character. There's a reason some people hate Ben more than Larry AND Campman.
I already linked Lee. I'm just as sick of people like you making insane links to ben and the death of the every character in the game.
Lets go through your hilariously poor conspiracy theory laden examples:
If Ben never traded with the bandits they'd have attacked earlier, as they eventually did, and could have killed EVERYONE.
If ben had confessed Lilly would have shot him, Doug would have still put himself in the way and been killed, carly still thinks she's a scared little girl. Lilly killed Doug/Carly, no one else.
Chuck made the decision to intervene, he could have just stood by too. Alternatively, we've been teaching Clem to take care of herself for four episodes, it's as much her fault for freezing up.
If Brie had pushed one of the many objects in front of the door instead of using her own body like an idiot she'd still be alive.
Kenny made the decision to kill himself, nothing Ben said would have changed that. Any idiot could have just shot Ben and left long before those walkers made it, Kenny wanted to die.
People like you blame a woman for being raped, instead of the rapist who raped her. Zombies killed Duck, Katjaa killed herself, Lilly/Zombies killed Doug/Carly, Zombies killed Chuck, Zombies killed Brie, Zombies killed Kenny. End of story.
I think he had enough and saved him from the pain. Holy shit, now that I think about it, he has gotten everyone killed (Since Ep. 2). Indirectly of course. The first victim was Larry and the bandit attack caused 3 more deaths.
Okay, I shall try.
Seriously, blaming everything on only one character is even more annoying than 'people defending him'. He is indeed linked to many character's deaths, but so are a lot of other people, including Lee. The main reason most people started hating him is because of Carley and Doug, who stood up for him, by the way.
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Hold the fucking phone. Don't you dare accuse me of saying that it's a woman's fault if she's raped. I'm someone who's volunteered at women's shelters, so by you having the audacity to even say that depresses me. That's probably the most nonsensical and offensive analogy I've ever heard. We're talking about a fictional character in a video game, calm the fuck down and chill with the ludicrous accusations.
I don't even wanna debate with you, I'm sorry if you felt offended at my comments, but it's just a fucking game and I was just openly discussing it with you. No need to say that I condone rape and that I blame victims.
And that comparison doesn't even work, I would have to be blaming Carley for her death rather than Ben.
You make some good arguments. I'll admit, the Kenny one is a stretch. I recant that one. I still stick by the others, but I'll like to address your first point about the bandits. Lee says the bandits gave them hell. I think they could've held their own at least until the RV was fixed. And, as far as I knew, no one had been injured when the bandits attacked. I'm assuming Ben heard the whole story about what happened the the St. Johns, were Mark was attacked. Bandits attacked them despite having a deal, so Ben should've known they couldn't be trusted.
I don't like Ben because he's dead weight as a character. I saved him because I didn't support the Crawford, but seriously, what's the appeal of him? Are you just defending him to defend him?
It's probably due to the fact I can relate to him, being a teenager myself. And I don't know how you feel about this, but the way everyone treats him just isn't right. Sure he can't pull his own weight, but he is trying his best and he's not a bad person, he's just a bit dumb at times.
I defend him because in his shoes I'd probably be just as scared, and I'd want someone to stick by me like my Lee did for him. And like I said, I don't think it's fair to put the blame of those things solely on him, because if you look at the situation as a whole, you'll see that these stuff happen because of multiple reasons, not only because of Ben. At least that's how I see it. And I don't really see a reason for playing the blame game, so I'm able to forgive those characters easily for making those mistakes when I try to look at the situation from their angle.
At the very least, i think Ben gave the bandits the element of surprise. Sure, they might have still led a full raid like they did, but the group would be expecting it and would be more prepared for it.
I liked Ben myself, but even he admits that it's his fault.
You may have volunteered at womens shelters, good for you...
I lived in one.
I would've went back and forth with you until you accused me of condoning rape. Like I said, it's a game, completely different tone than real life. People wished Kenny would die, does that mean they support murder and death in real life? No. People killed characters in the game, does that mean they will kill in real life? No. So me connecting other characters' deaths to Ben means absolutely nothing when it comes to my stance on real life issues.
That's unfortunate.
Hahaha EXACTLY! Thank you for pointing out that psychology. I find it hard to believe that all these holier than thou "look I saved Ben" people didn't MOSTLY do it because they thought he would redeem himself in some grand way. When that didn't happen (which, good on TTG - would've been very out of character), they changed their spiel.
I saved him cause most of us would have probably done similar things in the same scenario
No you wouldn't have, you simply have nothing to respond with, you know your stance on the matter of Ben is asinine at best and so you attempt to avoid the entire issue by getting all hot under the collar like it means something.
You blame the victims in this game, you blame the victims in real life. Don't give me that "it's different" crap, it shows the type of person you are. I don't see you blaming the bandits for attacking or coercing Ben to cooperate, I don't see you blaming Lilly for shooting Carly/Doug, no, you blame Ben.
I know why too, you're too much of a coward to blame those you can't see brought to justice, but Ben, he's still around, you can punish him. You don't care if you blame the right people or not.
You say that like ben wanted to fall
maybe if ben hurried up and didnt stand there for ages it would of stayed
1. So he couldn't have told the others about the plan and possibly avoid the entire mess? The reason they attacked was because Lee took the supplies from the agreed trading location. By not telling the others of the plan he unknowingly helped cause the attack. It's possible that the others would have agreed with Ben in the first place and avoided that attack, or at the very least get the others to be more prepared.
2. Which all could have been avoided had he informed the group about his earlier plan instead of keeping it a secret. No need for anyone to stand up to him and get shot by an unnerved women.
3. It doesn't fall on Lee since he was busy fighting zombies to notice that she was behind. Ben was right next her, and could have saved her. There is no excuse for Ben's action.
4. It does not matter what Kenny did because it is also a result of Ben's failure to mention the fact that he helped out the bandits and indirectly causing them to surprise attack the group which led to the death of Kenny''s family. Also had Ben not removed the ax in the first place none of that would have happened.
5. Agree that it was Kenny's decision. You can't really blame Ben for this one.
I just defended my positions with another poster who was much more polite than you. Just sayin'. And I even agreed with him on one point and recanted my statement. Ben isn't to blame for Kenny's death.
The thread was discussing Ben's connections to deaths. At least, that's what the posters were doing at the time. I simply outlined them. Of course Lilly killed Carley, but to ignore the motivations behind that is absurd. The thread is about Ben, so his actions and consequences will be highlighted. Just like Campman could blame Lee for talking his family's food and indirectly killing them, we can highlight Ben's actions as well.
It is different. Thanks for equating real life with video games. You basically put video games and rape in the same league as one another. Congratulations.
My opinion on a piece of fiction doesn't reflect who I am as a person. I enjoy horror (Walking Dead for example) that doesn't mean I enjoy people being terrorized in real life.
How is Ben a victim, exactly? Please, explain that to me.
Well nobody cared about him, he tried to do his best (even if it wasn't much) and nobody gave him some kind of recognition, Lilly and Kenny wanted to kill him,... Shall I continue?
I backed Ben up. I fed him food, I constantly talked to him, and I even defended him against Lilly along with Carley. I supported him. I voted to keep him. I saved him. I brought him with me at the end of Episode 4. Lee and Clem were Ben's biggest supporters, so you can't act like people didn't care.
Kenny and Lilly really had nothing against Ben until Lilly suspected him of dealing with the bandits, which turned out to be true. Kenny didn't truly hate Ben until Ben choose to tell Kenny about the bandits and how it affected Katjaa and Duck.
In relation to Carley, Doug and Duck, who's deaths he indirectly caused. How is he a victim?
That's like me setting up a faulty bridge, someone walking across it only to fall to their deaths. How am I the victim?
Btw, the hatchet and confessing to Kenny at the worst moment possible was stupid even for him
I agreed with your points originally, you can spend all day pointing out characters who could have indirectly killed someone. I do think that if a walker kills you, even if someone else causes it, its a walker that kills you. But seriously....your comment that you made about him was so out of line. You don't know that, and the analogy is ridiculous. Remember it is just a game that we all are talking about, and there is no reason to be mean to someone else over it.
Whoa. Shit. I didn't see this part. You need to chill the hell out with the ad hominem attacks about someone's character.
He is a kid. His brain isn't even fully formed. He has lived through his worst nightmare for months prior to when we meet him. He has seen friends and mentors die, has not had contact with his family, has most likely been running and hiding with very little food and sleep, all of which affect his judgement. He did not see the consequences of his actions the way others would. Neither, for example, does the teenage boy trying to "surf" on top of a buddy's car; he thinks it will be a blast, the neighbors think the idiot will end up roadkill.
It does not mean that he couldn't learn from his mistakes, and if given the chance, grow up to be a useful member of any group. So I didn't take that chance away from him.
And, if you notice, during the mansion siege Ben actually sounds confident. He's probably afraid, yeah, but he has control of it. He doesn't let the fear dictate his actions because he knows that everyone else is counting on him to step up and help get everyone out of the mess they were in. He actually keeps a cool head, kills walkers (possibly his first) and even saves Lee's gun after it fell. I think that he redeemed himself by actually being a productive member of the group, not panicking, and pulling his weight. Hell, he doesn't even seem to be begging for Kenny and Lee to save him in the alley, he just doesn't want to get ripped apart. Sure he didn't save everyone's lives, or kill a million walkers, but him turning his act around and gaining his confidence was enough for someone like Ben.
Oh no, no, don't get me wrong, Ben is a very believable character. But that doesn't mean I have to like him and sympathize with him, lol. I think Ben's one of those love or hate characters. Kinda like Lilly, who I love but people hate.
Thanks mate. I'm just here for a debate, I didn't want it to get so serious.
Still he should have confessed to what he did. He was lying to his friends, yes he had friends at that point. Carley liked him, probably felt bad for him, I'm guessing Doug would feel the same way. Katjaa was probably motherly towards him and I have a sneaking suspicion that Clem had a tiny crush on him. I get it, he was scared of Lilly but as Carley said:
"I think people should know... Some people might be pissed but it'll be a farcry if they don't hear it from you... There will never be a good time, but there will also be a lot of bad ones. And this doesn't seem like one of them."
I saved Ben because I didn't want him to die(I did tell him to stay behind later) not because I hoped that the game would reward me later(which it shouldn't) or that I was taking the "paragon" path.