Another game that really reminds me of Telltale's approach is "Tales of Symphonia" for Gamecube. In that game, sprinkled around the overworld (or directly within the main plot) are occasional dialogue options on how to respond to people, and sometimes what path to take next. These responses ultimately affect each character's "Affection Meter" with Lloyd, and they ultimately have a role in shaping who you speak with in Flanoir (which causes a minor variation in the game from then on as to which character you're closest to; Colette, Genis, Sheena, etc.). While these responses do not change the story, they provide a different feel for the characters around you, which is a lot of what these games are about.
In TWD, it's not about branching the narrative through your choices; it's more about affecting your relationships with the other characters. And even if, at times, these result merely in changes of dialogue, that actually makes the experience a lot more significant than you'd think.
Think about it - what would any movie or TV show be without meaningful dialogue? The fact is, dialogue and character interaction play a HUGE role in telling a story. The fact that dialogue in certain scenes can be drastically different (in each of the 5 episodes) depending on the choices you've made, actually does help to tailor the story to you.
My only real hope is that Season 1's choices carry over into Season 2 (similar to the Mass Effect games), and that characters whose endings are currently left unanswered are brought to light (such as: what ultimately happened to Kenny, Molly, Omid and Christa, Vernon, Lilly (after she leaves the party; hopefully something related to her time with Lee and the group comes to light before she takes on her role in the comics), Jolene's daughter, the St. John brothers (if you chose to spare them), Hershel (before his story begins in the comics, depending on whether or not you lied to him, and whether or not you tried to save Shawn), and especially Clementine. That way, there won't be loose ends of the story just left dangling there with a lazy "You interpret what happened to these characters" just tacked onto the end of the season. Hopefully, this will be the case.
Overall, bravo to Telltale for creating an emotionally driven experience. TWD surpasses Heavy Rain in so many ways, IMO, even with Heavy Rain's branching plotline.
What really makes the illusion of choice so prominent in this game is the internet, TBH. That and second playthroughs. Think about it: If you played through the game thinking your choices actually mattered and wondered what would happen had you done x instead of y it would feel a lot more realistic and you'd love the game a lot more.
For me, I never play games like this a second time or reload checkpoints because I like to believe my choice is set in stone and I have to live with it. I loved thinking that I could have actually saved Carley had I said or done something differently, but of course this was ruined as soon as I visited the internet.
Short version: I hate that the game has a cannon story, but would have been fine with that fact had I not known that.
To sum it up, your decisions will do one of two things. It will either:
A: Alter future dialog (or minor details), either directly or after calculating multiple decisions against one another. Or...
B: Delay an inevitable plot-point until you're back on the same track either way. Every single character that can be optionally saved/killed/abandoned will die/leave somewhere in the near future regardless.
It's nice how many old decisions get referenced often, but it's really no more groundbreaking than Mass Effect, to give one example.
I explained this before, but it is well worth explaining again. In television/film screenplays there are A plots, B plots, and C plots. The A plot has to stay the same or else you're writing a completely different narrative. The B and C plots, or the subplots involving supporting characters, can be altered or changed to shift emphasis without altering the A plot.
Most games have a required A plot narrative, even when they have multiple endings. The real question is how do games disguise the rigidity of the A plot through narrative sleight of hand?
Fallout does this by compartmentalizing its B and C plots. The B plots and C plots, while numerous, are are usually completely ignored once you step outside of their spheres of influence. For instance, you can blow up the town of Megaton in Fallout 3 and NO ONE CARES. It almost never gets mentioned ever again. You can destroy Tenpenny Towers and outside of Tenpenny Towers there is no change to the game at all.
The game goes on like this until the end when a patchwork series of narrated alternate ending stillframes, each ten seconds long, reflect what you did. Even then, the game has the same A plot ending despite great variety in its recognition of your B and C plot exploits.
The Walking Dead plays harder and tighter with its B and C plots. The A plot will never change and keeps the same structure, but the B plots and C plots directly alter your story and change the decisions you make later on. Characters remember what you did in those subplots although the narrative will remain consistent. They will comment on your progression REPEATEDLY, initiate conversation with you in such a manner that they acknowledge the decisions you made, and generally consider your previous actions in their own response to situations.
If you take each Episode separately, it's obvious that the game acknowledges your B plot and C plot choices. As a whole, however, the game brushes off those choices in the end. But the climax of the game is DIRECTLY tied to the actions you've taken in B plot and C plot decisions and your effect on the world.
This is closer to Mass Effect than Fallout 3. And Mass Effect still demands credit for integrating broad choices your character has made into sequels. That said, Mass Effect 3's failure was that its climax truly ignores everything you had done up until that point. There is no surprise twist. There's no echo from the past. Once you walk away from Liara, you are entering the exact same storyline every other gamer has been playing and will witness plenty of prerendered animated scenes slightly altered based not on your decisions but on an arbitrary number easily affected by playing multiplayer sessions.
While it's true you can make a decision that alters the ending and choices you made will limit the variety of faces that appear in one of those cutscenes, the climax doesn't care about your friends one bit.
This puts The Walking Dead at an advantage. Your dialogue changes are DIRECTLY altered based on how you played the game. The entire climax is a reflection of your choices and your mindset and that of your friends. And you get to revisit them. So, yeah, your choices tailor THE GAME even if the ending is the same.
Great post and sums up my feelings. Episode 3 hit me like a truck. Episode 1 and 2 set you up for these decisions that you think are going to be big.
*You choose either Lilly or Kenny as your main friend
*Doug/Carley are still around so you gain the illusion they will meaningfully impact the story in some way
These, to me, were the big choices for episode 1 and 2. Episode 3 destroyed them. No matter how you treated Lilly she does the exact same thing and Doug/Carley both end up the same.
What if Kenny had bailed on you with his family because he didn't trust you and left you Lilly for the rest of the game? Telltale could afford keeping Doug/Carley around until episode 3 but couldn't think to do more dialogue for Lilly for episodes 4/5?
And the Doug/Carley incident... my gosh... the sole purpose of that scene was only meant to get rid of them. It seemed like the first half of episode 3 was just devoted to get rid of all the important relationships you built in episodes 1/2 so they didn't have to keep making them matter.
Then it continues for episode 4. Illusions of important decisions were:
*How you treat Vernon and if you tell him to take Clem or not.
*Who goes with you in the final episode. (I still remember the forum exploding with, "IT ALL MATTERS NOW! GO TT!" )
*Ben's fate
Two of which were crushed in the same scene five minutes into the next episode. No matter how you treated Vernon he steals your stuff and no matter who goes with you everyone is together after the first five minutes of the episode.
On top of that, we wouldn't want to start thinking that anyone we try to save is going to survive huh? Ben just has to go halfway into the episode.
I still enjoyed the game, don't get me wrong. But anyone who thinks the game is "custom-fit", aka tailored, around your choices is delusional. It's a wonderful story and a great interactive movie but the game does not change based on choice and there is little reason to replay it.
I read the linked article in its entirety. Now, I am absolutely sure that the words "This game series adapts to the choices you make. The story is tailored by how you play." is nothing but a play on our limited understanding of what TT considers 'The Story..'. The linked article was written by someone with a distinct command of the written verse. It seems more an apology that a fact stating concourse.
The average, reasonable gamer played the episodes believing that the word 'adaptation' would result in an alternate ending than what we were fed. Instead, it has meant nothing more than a pointless round of choices that left us emotionally reminded of our ability to make good decisions within a small increment of time.
Time wasn't the enemy. Choices proved to be nothing more than a graphical representation of where we would end up in the scenes to come. It was not a true adaptation to choices as we soon learned that the story is the ultimate decision maker regardless of our own.
Did it really make any difference in the finale that the entire group went with Lee to find Clem? Where in the entire episode did Lee need anyone but himself to rescue Clem? While it comforted many to have company during the search, the choices only affected the stats before the credits.
So... This game series adapts to the choices you make. The story is tailored by how you play. is not a complete lie. It is an illusion or even a deception primarily used to make players believe choices would provide a certain story ending. The result of all that button mashing and mouse clicking is nothing more than wear and tear on a players gear.
If I played the game without making a single story choice, which is separate from action
choices like shooting a weapon or climbing a ladder, the story would adapt in such a way that it would flow to the end result. Without me, as a player, Lee would have been bitten , the stranger would have died, and Clem would still be facing an uncertain future, alone.
(How many times do we need to read this stuff?) We felt cheated in the finale because of the story ending, not the ability to affect the scenes within it. Controlling the scenes is what makes TWDG a game. Otherwise, we are merely mashing 'turn the page' buttons on a well thought out visual book.
In fact, it takes about 10-15 hours to read a good book. We did that in five episodes running about 2 hours on average (perhaps more for some). So yeah... we played an active role in a book that was graphically displayed... great idea and that is the only thing I really walked away with. The ending of this season was poorly thought out and made people question does this story adapt to the choices you make? Simply put... No.
@Luminoth: What you're saying about relationships is spot on, and is basically what I was getting at in the blog. In fact, character relationships and emotional responses are far *more* important to a story than it's plot (although this seems counter-intuitive to many people).
@FreeWater: I agree - I'm not going to play it again. BUt I was curious enough about how it functions to look stuff up on this forum. Even learning that a fair bit of it is smoke and mirrors didn't really lessen my satisfaction with it. Like I say in the article - all art and storytelling is ultimately smoke and mirrors.
@bazenji: Very cool alternate explanation of how the plotting works.
@Fluffyburrito and others: I think you're still missing the point of what I was saying. The tailoring is to the emotional journey, not the main plot. If you look at it from that point of view, it's very much "tailored". The decisions I made certainly impacted me emotionally in specific ways, and I would have felt different had I made different choices.
@Taaka: Once again, I have to respectfully disagree. The whole point of my article is that this is a game about exploring the emotional landscape of a story and its characeter; it is not about "Choose Your Own Adventure"-style branching plots. Some people may have felt cheated by this. I certainly did not - in fact, I was surprised and delighted when I realised what Telltale had accomplished, and how skilfully they'd pulled it off.
Telltales own words [the first two paragraphs advertising the entire series]: "Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode.
Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series."
Maybe the apologists should actually do their homework. Everyone got exactly the same ending... There were no lasting consequences for anything... Not one single decision you made actually mattered one rats ass. You can like the game but wake up and see it for what it is at the same time. It might have been good in many ways but it still failed to live up to goals it initially set out to meet. For all the yours that Telltale threw out up there they ultimately decided that we were gonna damn well sit back and listen to the story that they provided. While it was a mostly compelling story that doesn't take away the fact that it wasn't our story.
[SNIP... Forgot this wasn't a spolier forum... Many examples of non-changeable story routes].
Don't give me any crapola about this did what it set out to do. It did not. Everything leads down the same linear path with occasionally different flavour text. There are no consequences for anything you do at all. ANYTHING. Period.
"Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode.
Let's face it. We live in the bioware era where we expect games that offer choices to have those choices impact the game's plot significantly and often to the point where we do get multiple endings, even if they are just differ mostly in the color of ambient light.
I think their marketing f'ed up and didn't need to mislead players like that. That said I don't feel cheated. The game is brilliant and I could care less that it was linear in nature. Even if the choices were insignificant to the plot (since the characters die anyway) they were still fun (at time agonizing) to make and that's what matters.
@The13thRonin: Point taken. I hadn't read that first sentence you quote. Perhaps they did tone things down from their original intentions. It wouldn't be the first time. However;
@GenConfusion: You're absolutely right - the game was in the experience of *making* the choices, plot consequences be damned. It may be true that some people expect choices that influence the plot, but that doesn't mean that's the best approach to making this style of game. I'd argue that The Walking Dead equals or trumps any game Bioware has ever made in terms of narrative engagement. As such, why don't we look at Telltale's game as an equally valid model?
@The13thRonin: Point taken. I hadn't read that first sentence you quote. Perhaps they did tone things down from their original intentions. It wouldn't be the first time. However;
With all that said I still enjoyed the game and I think it's a masterpiece. I hope though that they take it that extra mile in season two. If they can just go that little bit of an extra mile it will go from being a good game to being one of the best games ever created. I don't want Telltale to sit back and think well obviously no-one wants choices so lets just ignore that from now on. Hopefully it moves away from being a linear experience to a more open ended one. One where I can punch the next Kenny right in his face after he acts like a punk because I didn't help with his 'salt' problems.
Telltales own words [the first two paragraphs advertising the entire series]: "Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode.
Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series."
And it did.
That's the thing. Notice it says "How your story plays out", NOT "Will alter the overall story". The way my story played out is different than yours. It DID alter. That is all they said.
Maybe the apologists should actually do their homework.
I did. And I'm not apologizing, if you didn't like the game then you didn't like the game. And the bugs/customer service has been god-awful for this game.
Everyone got exactly the same ending... There were no lasting consequences for anything... Not one single decision you made actually mattered one rats ass.
Again people are just going with the "BUT LEE STILL DIED" conclusion. Where did it say MAJOR DETAILS were changed? If you can find where Telltale themselves said that, then fine. So far all I'm seeing is the same "Story is tailored to how you play" which did happen with minor details changing.
You can like the game but wake up and see it for what it is at the same time. It might have been good in many ways but it still failed to live up to goals it initially set out to meet.
It failed some(episodic) succeeded at others(story), and it did succeed here(again, all I see are "Your story plays out differently than others", which is true. Granted there are some "really?" moments in the story (the fact that the group meets up in the end even after that dramatic "I'm going" "I'm not" part of episode 4 was pure bullcrap... still want to see if Ben cuts Lee's arm off...), but it certainly is this "NOTHING CHANGED" argument I've seen.
While it was a mostly compelling story that doesn't take away the fact that it wasn't our story.
Again, you seem to flat out ignore the details that DID change. Kenny flat out hated me by the end of the game, while others had Kenny become BFFS. I got the guilt of knowing Ben get's an arguably worse death if you save him in episode 4. While others feel guilt that he died by their hands. I had Doug, others have Carley(Yeah yeah yeah, "THEY DIED STILL" fantastic, they still were with me 2 episodes longer than before)
And I got to watch Telltale fail at figuring out how the heck Lee needs to climb a latter with one arm
Don't give me any crapola about this did what it set out to do. It did not. Everything leads down the same linear path with occasionally different flavour text. There are no consequences for anything you do at all. ANYTHING. Period.
Again, you are just looking at the broad story, which didn't change. The details did. Also, calling it "flavor text" isn't exactly how to diminish it and make it nonimportant. You seem to be forgetting how YOU reacted. My decisions led me to hate Kenny personally, others became great friends with him. That wasn't flavor text, that was YOUR reactions. Same with Lilly.
"Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode.
The game doesn't need to constantly tell you "HEY YOU HELPED MURDER AN OLD MAN IN FRONT OF HIS DAUGHTER!" to "live with the consequences". You still helped murder Larry, you still killed Ben/gave him a worse fate, you still stabbed a St Johns farmer with a pitchfork, you still chose Carley over Doug, you still fought Kenny, you still did all of this. These WERE my choices, and the consequences were guilt of what I done, and how the characters reacted me. Yes I still died in the end, that was the destination, THIS was the journey.
Go ahead and ignore all the details that changed and go with "LEE STILL DIED! KENNY STILL DIED!" etc. I won't argue that, this is just a message to everyone, quit ignoring the details that DID change. If you want to argue, don't argue that NOTHING changed, argue that you wish MORE changed(which be honest, we all do).
There's respectable arguments on both sides - Agree to disagree.
It's okay to state your opinion, but if you're willing to go as far as insult the developers, then please stop. The developers worked mighty hard on this game, and I enjoyed every second of it. Don't ruin my fun while I'm looking on these forums to chat about my experiences.
Go ahead and ignore all the details that changed and go with "LEE STILL DIED! KENNY STILL DIED!" etc. I won't argue that, this is just a message to everyone, quit ignoring the details that DID change. If you want to argue, don't argue that NOTHING changed, argue that you wish MORE changed(which be honest, we all do).
Sometimes I wear a red tie to work... Sometimes I wear a blue tie... Does this change anything? Not really...
Just because little tidbits of dialogue changed doesn't mean that this accounts for long lasting consequences. It's not about that Lee died. It's about the fact that everything Lee did prior to dying was for nothing. All the "Clementine will remember that." or other character's "he/she will remember that" moments were for nothing.
And don't even get me started on Kenny... Perfect example. You do everything for that guy, you feed his family, you save his family, you kiss the ground he walks on and what does he do if you don't help him salt lick Larry? He leaves you for dead twice and hates you for the rest of the game... Umm what? How does that take into account any of my prior actions? You basically press a giant Kenny will treat you passive-aggressively or Kenny will bromance you button and nothing else you do matters. There are heaps of examples of this kind of thing but the Kenny thing is probably the best one.
I respect elements of your argument but I still completely disagree with your point of view on the matter.
There's respectable arguments on both sides - Agree to disagree.
It's okay to state your opinion, but if you're willing to go as far as insult the developers, then please stop. The developers worked mighty hard on this game, and I enjoyed every second of it. Don't ruin my fun while I'm looking on these forums to chat about my experiences.
I'm not sure if you're talking to me or anyone else but as far as I'm concerned I don't feel I've insulted the developers. I stated multiple times I liked the game and the game was good even so far as regarding it as a "masterpiece" but that's not going to stop me from offering some criticism that a lot of people in the community are also feeling. I have stated that either their advertising was misleading or they failed in their initial objective in providing a branching story. I stand by that statement. No-one is trying to mess with your enjoyment of the game.
Perhaps you are referring to what I termed 'the apologists'. This is because I don't believe just because you recognise the elements of good in something you should ignore the elements that weren't so good or could be improved. If people want a better Season 2 they need to offer reasonable critcism of Season 1. I don't think reasonable critcism is anything like Lee died so the story sucked. I do think that not having enough player choice is a reasonable critcism though.
I made this account specifically to answer your question.
It does. 100%.
I gave up at Ep. 1 because I already knew what was going to happen, and the start was kind of slow. And yes, again. It does.
The reason for TellTale games making it so Lee dies no matter what, is because there are several accounts of replayers. The ones who just replay the game, the chapter, that one moment, just to get the perfect ending. Because he's attacked by surprise. There is no way not to get scratched after you pick up Clementine's hat. And it's just not of his personality to deny picking up the hat. NO ONE wouldn't pick up the hat. Unless you don't have feelings, or you were making the wrong choices on purpose.
Another reason is because there'd be too many endings. And, they already had an ending in plan. It'll resolve around Season 1, and there was no way for that ending to happen without Lee dying. The ending would be 100% different with Lee alive, and it's really hard to script. Really. YOU try scripting that. It already takes a month to make each episode.
An example of things that can change based on your decisions.
1. Doug or Lilly/Carley?
2. Give her the gun or don't?
3. Kill Duck or have Kenny kill him?
4. Who is your team?
These are all based on how people feel about you based on your choices. And can most likely effect Season 2 (this has been confirmed)
If you choices in season 1 have been confirmed to cross over to season 2 why are you saying most likely? Either it hasn't been confirmed and it is most likely to happen or it's been confirmed full stop. I agree that saving Carly or Doug makes a difference even if it's just aesthetic and brief because one will be in the 2nd episode and one won't but that is the only significant change in the game based on your choices of the 4 points you listed.
If you give irene the gun she kills herself if you don't she takes it from you and kills herself. If you shoot Duck or Kenny shoots Duck it makes no real difference. Both Lee and Kenny are in the scene next to each other any way. It doesn't effect your friendship, Kenny's mood or behavior, it's purely about what you the gamer thinks is best. Should I take the burden off my friend or should I let him be the one to kill his son. As for the 4th point of who is in your team, the game decides this for you after episode 1. Ben can die at the end of ep4(you have to add him to your group in ep2) if you choose not to save him or die in ep 5. Who you pick to come with you to save to Clem makes no difference since you go back to the house and reunite with anyone you left there and look for Clem as a group. The decision to go alone in ep 4 is only with regards to Vernon's base which the game transports you to after you make your decision who to go with or rather they make the decision to go with you. The members of the group are predetermined to live or die regardless, though Doug,Carly and Ben can die at different times they are still the ones that will die and Christa will still survive till the end of ep5.
With regards to Telltale's reason's for killing of Lee I don't think you or I can truly say for sure unless we worked on their staff team, all we can do is speculate. Personally I think it was done for shock effect (killing the stories protagonist)to pull the rug from beneath us. If his death was necessary for Clementine's development Rick Grimes would have died a long time ago. Carl would have learned more from Rick in life than Clementine would learn from Lee's death. Personally I would have preferred for Lee to have died after reuniting Clementine with Christa and the story ending than Lee failing to bring Clementine to Christa before he died, her leaving the city by her self and us getting another season to play as another character. But that's just me.
With regards to how people feel about you based on your choices all of the people in Lee's original group were dead(Clementine aside), Christa and Omid came in the game late and didn't really know much about how you treated other group members in earlier episodes. The people that were in you group even if you treated them bad they will still play their part for sequences to play out. I completely rebuffed Kenny in Ep 5 after he refused to help me find Clem in ep 4 and in ep5 he was a complete different person, asking how I was etc. I practically blanked him through out ep 5. The only time I remember responding to him before he died was in the attic when I called him a bastard, yet Telltale wanted to give him a heroic send off where he is encouraging me to go without him, like I needed encouraging.
Choice matters? It is the illusion of choice and we are disillusioned if we think the game could play out any differently based on our choices. The game merely makes you feel in control of your choices. Women have been doing this to men for centuries and millenia. Making men think that they were in control and that they thought of an idea when really,they were prompted by suggestion.
Still a great emotional game though but lets call a spade a spade. Choices matter in Heavy Rain, choices in the walking dead game do not, not in the grand scale of things.
With regards to the comment about it being too long for them to have multiple endings, when you consider how significantly shorter the episode was I think they could have had at least 1 alternative ending. The 2 ways that the choices we made could of mattered would have been if there was an alternate ending from the one we all received or if the surviving group members were different based on our choices, though I accept the latter would have been very difficult and time consuming they could have had 2 endings which were computer generated based on the feed back of your actions in game.(I don't mean having an ending where Lee lives) Having the guy on the radio remind me that Telltale were keeping track by telling me all of the things I have done which I already know I had done is not a consequence of my actions. He would have kidnapped Clementine regardless.
Well if people actually knew what "tailor made" meant, they wouldn't be complaining.
Tailor made does NOT mean changing things wildly, never did, never will. If you have a shirt tailor-made for you, it means the sleeves are shorter or longer to match you. It doesn't have a 3rd sleeve for you. Same for this game, it's tailor-made for you, characters will think differently about you based on your actions, it WON'T change the story for you.
How hard is it for people to figure this out?
Firstly the issue is not with the "tailor made" claim it's the claim that choices matter, big difference. Secondly I haven't seen any posts or comments about people wanting the story to change. The same way dialogue options don't change the story is the same way scenery changes wouldn't have to change the story since they could be small variations. The difference is scenery changes would make the gamer feel their choices mattered and add replay value. The basis of the story would remain, Lee would still die, Clementine's parent's would still be walkers and Clementine would still leave the city. Come to think of it I'm not sure that having different survivors by the end of episode 5 from the beginning of episode 5 would have necessarily changed the story either since they could have died off in season 2 as I don't believe the final walking dead game will end with Clementine alone and destitute. An example of an alternate ending I made in previous posts still involved Lee dying, just not dying in the shop but dying after passing over Clementine to her new care takers. I don't see how that would have changed the story just the cliff hanger or the season's ending.
Regarding the point of how characters opinions shaped by your actions were the tailored made experience there are inconsistencies with that and contradictory behavior. If that was such I would have been considered a saint in the eyes of the guy on the radio since I didn't take his food. Now, I have worked in the mental health field and I know from first hand experience that a paranoid delusional person like Clementine's abductor would have sided with me once he had seen how I treated Kenny from ep 3-5, the person he claimed to be after in my play through and the fact that I didn't steal his stuff I should not have appeared responsible for his circumstances yet it had to play out that way for everybody. Where is the tailor made experience there. I didn't want that, my actions in the game should not have reflected his response to me. That was as of the rack as you can get if where using clothing metaphors. Regarding Kenny I kept pushing him away and was generally ungracious towards him in ep5 but he just kept coming back, smiling like we were still friends. It seemed disjointed. He was telling Christa how we had gone through so much, implying that we were friends really and I responded calling him a bastard and he was still happy. Then in his final moments he was acting like we were best friends and I hated the guy and didn't hide it from ep3 on wards.
From what I have read everybody is pretty much in agreement that it was a great game, people are mostly commenting on the little impact choice actually made when it seemed to be a big point in their advertising campaign. I loved the game. Did I think choices mattered? No
Honestly, from what I could tell, TellTale wanted to make the choices in the game matter a lot more. Viewing episode one, there was a lot of things that could affect possible episode two. However, they gave themselves one month between each episode, forcing them to cut corners, making most all of the characters interchangeable. So, hopefully for season 2 people will be more patient and let TellTale make the game they want.
You were given choices, but choices don't mean they change anything in the end. Say you're driving somewhere, you can take several different routes to get there -- they may go in different directions but in the end they all take you to your destination.
The journey is more important than the end.
I don't know, that seems like someone being told they have to drink two drinks but they can choose what drink they drink first. If I choose for Lee to walk over the walk way with the banner first it breaks, if I choose for Lee to wait for christa and omid to cross over before sending Lee over it breaks to force Lee apart from christa and omid. I'm not sure i'd say the outcome is altered enough for the games journey to feel that different. The point is that these variations are too small. If Lee and Christa were parted at another point in the game then yeah, like if it was a different scene. But if we are talking about journey's i'm pretty sure my play through would cover the same scenes,people and places as everyone else.
I made this account specifically to answer your question.
It does. 100%.
I gave up at Ep. 1 because I already knew what was going to happen, and the start was kind of slow. And yes, again. It does.
The reason for TellTale games making it so Lee dies no matter what, is because there are several accounts of replayers. The ones who just replay the game, the chapter, that one moment, just to get the perfect ending. Because he's attacked by surprise. There is no way not to get scratched after you pick up Clementine's hat. And it's just not of his personality to deny picking up the hat. NO ONE wouldn't pick up the hat. Unless you don't have feelings, or you were making the wrong choices on purpose.
Another reason is because there'd be too many endings. And, they already had an ending in plan. It'll resolve around Season 1, and there was no way for that ending to happen without Lee dying. The ending would be 100% different with Lee alive, and it's really hard to script. Really. YOU try scripting that. It already takes a month to make each episode.
An example of things that can change based on your decisions.
1. Doug or Lilly/Carley?
2. Give her the gun or don't?
3. Kill Duck or have Kenny kill him?
4. Who is your team?
These are all based on how people feel about you based on your choices. And can most likely effect Season 2 (this has been confirmed)
1. Doesn't matter, they both die in the end.
2. Doesn't matter, she takes the gun in the end.
3. Doesn't matter, Kenny 'dies'/goes missing in the end.
4. Doesn't matter, you all get back together in the end.
This game doesn't matter how the game reacts to your choices, it's how the players react emotionally. I don't know about you but I was heavily embedded into this game emotionally.
Saving Doug or Carley, for example, you get to have the pleasure of meeting and getting to know someone. Have a romance or a bromance. I get it, they're not real, but the creators wrote them so realistically that I was actually really fond of them.
Point being, this game isn't a standard game where I'm just driven to win, in this game I'm actually driven emotionally. I wasn't driven for the need to win the game when I was looking for Clem, I actually wanted to save her because she means something to me. I know it's horribly sappy, but it's just special and I'm disappointed people actually have the views like "oh I saved Carley and she didn't help me beat the game so like what was the point in saving her!!"
This game doesn't matter how the game reacts to your choices, it's how the players react emotionally. I don't know about you but I was heavily embedded into this game emotionally.
Um no... Are you deliberately ignoring the large amount of pages that people have linked to in this thread showing that Telltale promised lasting consequences and a branching story? Please go actually open the official promotional page for the game, read it, come back.
Um no... Are you deliberately ignoring the large amount of pages that people have linked to in this thread showing that Telltale promised lasting consequences and a branching story? Please go actually open the official promotional page for the game, read it, come back.
That was a way to get more attention to the game (I know that it's a dirty trick, they shouldn't have done it), but I honestly don't see why people should care so much though. This is the first time I felt so emotional over a game in my life and I'd be surprised if you could honestly say you didn't too. They deserve NOTHING but praise.
I could honestly say the plot would likely suffer if the writers had to design multiple outcomes to the game. Would you want that? Would you want another Mass Effect?
Yeah you could feel bitter that "omg me giving food to Larry didn't do anything WHAT THE FUUUUUU" or you could have fun with this AMAZING GAME. I'm not even fucking wanking it too, this game is simply amazing.
As I said before too, this game isn't about how your decisions effect gameplay, it's how it affects you personal. I mean sure me saying "I'll... miss you" to Clem didn't have any effect on the game, it did however make me cry. I'd rather have that emotional connection rather then what you people wanted. Unless you wanted both, well then good luck finding a gaming company that's capable of that shit.
Um no... Are you deliberately ignoring the large amount of pages that people have linked to in this thread showing that Telltale promised lasting consequences and a branching story? Please go actually open the official promotional page for the game, read it, come back.
I think a lot of players had fun despite their choices actually mattered. But developers need to think about the effect and even more potential for mainstream success if choices ACTUALLY mattered to the point where it would compete with similar games such as Fallout 3/New Vegas and Heavy Rain.
The choices are great, characters are realistic. I see a lot of players are emotionally invested. It's one of the best games I've played this year, but it can be even greater if choices mattered. That's all.
"Some may prefer to call what the Walking Dead does with its plot “cheating”, but in fact all art involves the creation of something out of nothing. And thus all art is – from this perspective – illusion. The trick is in constructing your meaningful story so that the audience can’t see the strings. Or – even better – so that its impact is emotionally powerful enough that they stop caring that there are strings. The Walking Dead is a great game (and in my view a great work of art) because by the time you see the strings, it has you by the throat"
The article is dead on and it is why I love the game so much. Its draws you in. Even though you know that it will send the same no matter what you do, it does not at the same time. Who is with you through the story, who has your back, who will leave you to die if you can't save yourself. Is so much more powerful to me playing this game then if everyone gets the same ending. Its not the destination but the journey.
I played episodes 1-4 straight through without reloading or reading anything about the game. I was emotionally invested (though not as much as other games I’ve played, I think because I knew all along that every single character was completely fricking doomed)
I was planning to play through again and see some other possibilities. I went to the internet to see what those other possibilities might be...and I was severely disillusioned to find out that no matter what I did the same people would be with me.
I hadn’t been expecting changes to the overarching narrative (we get on the train, Duck and Katjaa die tragically, Clem gets kidnapped, etc) but I had expected who I’d be with to be a variable. It still wouldn’t “really” effect the plot because no matter who you had with you characters would still take on the same roles: one person wants to stay put, one person wants to keep moving. Who those two characters are doesn’t matter to the plot but it does change things for the player emotionally. The player chooses who to side with, but then the walkers force the plot forward regardless. Ultimately, who your companions are is just extremely fancy window dressing, it doesn’t represent a branch in the plot. It wouldn’t be especially hard to script, but it would be a bitch to render all the possibilities.
Anyway that’s the level of “tailoring” I was expecting based on the way it felt when I played through the first time. I felt like I had effected who lived and who died, but in reality I hadn’t. That was disappointing.
And when I stopped to think about it I definitely felt as if my decisions didn’t matter:
the teacher and not-Ben student both die immediately no matter what
Kenny won’t listen to you if you try to protect Larry, no matter how nice you’ve been
Lilly will up and shoot someone for no reason no matter how gentle of a mediator you’ve been
Omid breaks his stupid leg no matter what you do
Vernon betrays you no matter how nice you’ve been
Kenny will heroically sacrifice himself no matter how much of a jerk you’ve been
The crazy guy at the end is mad at you whether you stole his food or not.
The problem has nothing to do with this or that press release, or even the fact that I couldn’t effect those events. What leaves me feeling annoyed, or even betrayed, is that while I was playing the game it MADE ME THINK I could effect those type of things, when in reality I couldn’t.
Maybe Telltale was trying to say that the cruel hands of fate rule us all, that it’s hopeless to try to effect the actions of others. Maybe leading us to feel guilty about events we ultimately had no control over is part of some profound existential message...
Or maybe Telltale just bit off more than they could chew and ended up delivering a product with fewer options than they had hoped.
Yeah, it does, but that doesn't excuse TellTale of misleading marketing.
"A tailored game experience – Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode. Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series." - That's the description from the Steam store.
There's a video on TellTale's Youtube Channel called "Choice Matters." In it, the Episode 3 designer says that in the comics, Rick makes choices that drastically effect his chances of survival. He's basically using weasel words to give you the illusion that your choices will matter without saying it. And when people complain they can just point back and say "we said it tailored to your choices." Watch it, the whole video gives the impression we'll make choices that matter, when in actuality, the choices yield the same results no matter what. Ben always dies. So does Carley and Doug. Clem always gets kidnapped. Lee always perishes. So choice doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
That's the problem people have with it and if you ask me, it's a valid complaint. People can keep trying to write it off, but it's a valid issue with many gamers who thought the game was going to be more... consequential. As for me, I could care less, I just wanted a better written ending than what we got.
Read THAT, and then come back and talk to me. Also, stop being an ass. #lawyer'd
So what you're saying is your thoughts on the issue are more authoritive than Telltales own official marketing which comes straight from the development team?
Also... Complains about other person being an ass... Ends his post with "#lawyer'd"... Nope...
If you want an example of how to write a relatively good post that disagrees with someone by attacking the argument and not the person please refer to CarScar above you. I might not agree with CarScar but I respect his ability to discuss a point of difference like an adult.
"This game series adapts to the choices you make. The story is tailored by how you play."
This is the message that greets the player at the beginning of every episode of Telltale’s The Walking Dead game. But is it true?
Is this a bad joke? Of course it's not true.
TTG made a nice little interactive comic, sold it as something else entirely, and managed to piss of a lot of the people who would have otherwise enjoyed this adequate time-passer.
It was like your buddy fixing you up for a blind date, telling you the pleasant, very average girl you were meeting was a supermodel with a Phd. If he'd been honest, it could have been a perfectly decent evening. Instead, you spent dinner wishing she was even remotely as advertised.
It was far worse, of course, for pc users. The little relevance your choices had vanished entirely when the software couldn't manage to carry from one episode to the next the necessary but very small handful of variables.
As for the gameplay, what a thrill! Only by staring at the vase falling on Clem does it finally miss her. What a treat it was, to discover it took something completely unintuitive for you to escape listening to her skull caving in one... more... time.
Well, we knew the fix was in, what with the completely random journey over to the rooftop and belltower, then the completely random return to the mansion. Talk about cheap-o location recycling. And they couldn't even give us the catharsis of a happy ending where we get some clue as to whether Clem made it five feet past the door? [Rolls eyes]
"So choice doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things."
Choice doesn't matter in the minor scheme of things in episode 5. What's particularly sad is the game's few defenders have been rapidly reduced to claiming, "But it's how you FEEL about the choices you made that's important!"
"So what you're saying is your thoughts on the issue are more authoritive than Telltales own official marketing which comes straight from the development team?"
I laughed. Because if there's one thing we can trust more than politicians, it's marketing teams, right? Good one.
If I played the game without making a single story choice, which is separate from action
choices like shooting a weapon or climbing a ladder, the story would adapt in such a way that it would flow to the end result. Without me, as a player, Lee would have been bitten , the stranger would have died, and Clem would still be facing an uncertain future, alone.
(How many times do we need to read this stuff?) We felt cheated in the finale because of the story ending, not the ability to affect the scenes within it. Controlling the scenes is what makes TWDG a game. Otherwise, we are merely mashing 'turn the page' buttons on a well thought out visual book.
In fact, it takes about 10-15 hours to read a good book. We did that in five episodes running about 2 hours on average (perhaps more for some). So yeah... we played an active role in a book that was graphically displayed... great idea and that is the only thing I really walked away with. The ending of this season was poorly thought out and made people question does this story adapt to the choices you make? Simply put... No.
This bore repeating. It's an excellent summary of what is, after all, very little more than a pleasant interactive comic with a weak ending.
"Some may prefer to call what the Walking Dead does with its plot “cheating”, but in fact all art involves the creation of something out of nothing. And thus all art is – from this perspective – illusion. The trick is in constructing your meaningful story so that the audience can’t see the strings. Or – even better – so that its impact is emotionally powerful enough that they stop caring that there are strings. The Walking Dead is a great game (and in my view a great work of art) because by the time you see the strings, it has you by the throat"
We saw the strings no later than midway throught the first episode, so in this sense TWD game failed, and failed miserably.
Worst of all, the ending was a hopeless bungle. Lee's great sacrifice is no sacrifice at all. First, it's unimaginable that Clem, if she even survives the city (and recall that we forgot to, you know, actually tell her how to find Omid and Christa--oops!), won't be forever haunted by the image of zombie Lee chained to a radiator in a windowless room for all eternity. The big deal he makes, that she shouldn't shoot him, is horribly, horribly misguided. Putting down someone before they turn is extremely cathartic. It was a point of honor and pride and closure for Carl to put down Lori in the tv series. In the game it completely spoils the whole ending. Clem doesn't get that closure.
Second, are you kidding me? We're left with no cutscene, no reunion with Omid and Christa where we see Clem finally escape? It's clear that TTG badly rushed the entire episode, but this was the worst sort of failure. It played exactly as though the developer simply hit the wall of a deadline and had to quit without finishing. Talk about the strings showing.
Tailor made does NOT mean changing things wildly, never did, never will. If you have a shirt tailor-made for you, it means the sleeves are shorter or longer to match you. It doesn't have a 3rd sleeve for you. Same for this game, it's tailor-made for you, characters will think differently about you based on your actions, it WON'T change the story for you.
How hard is it for people to figure this out?
Yes, because who can forget the genuine excitement of tiny captions popping up in the corner that say things like "Christa will remember you said that"!
Even though, you know, it won't change her behavior in the slightest, and even though we'll never know WHAT she thinks of your behavior. It's so satisfying to grasp that she's thinking about it.
^^^ Quadruple post? I've heard of double posts but quadruple? Geeze.
We get it, you wanted your choices to be super meaningful blah blah blah. While you bitch about how your choices didn't effect the game I'll be enjoying this game because it has a great plot and great characters.
Comments
In TWD, it's not about branching the narrative through your choices; it's more about affecting your relationships with the other characters. And even if, at times, these result merely in changes of dialogue, that actually makes the experience a lot more significant than you'd think.
Think about it - what would any movie or TV show be without meaningful dialogue? The fact is, dialogue and character interaction play a HUGE role in telling a story. The fact that dialogue in certain scenes can be drastically different (in each of the 5 episodes) depending on the choices you've made, actually does help to tailor the story to you.
My only real hope is that Season 1's choices carry over into Season 2 (similar to the Mass Effect games), and that characters whose endings are currently left unanswered are brought to light (such as: what ultimately happened to Kenny, Molly, Omid and Christa, Vernon, Lilly (after she leaves the party; hopefully something related to her time with Lee and the group comes to light before she takes on her role in the comics), Jolene's daughter, the St. John brothers (if you chose to spare them), Hershel (before his story begins in the comics, depending on whether or not you lied to him, and whether or not you tried to save Shawn), and especially Clementine. That way, there won't be loose ends of the story just left dangling there with a lazy "You interpret what happened to these characters" just tacked onto the end of the season. Hopefully, this will be the case.
Overall, bravo to Telltale for creating an emotionally driven experience. TWD surpasses Heavy Rain in so many ways, IMO, even with Heavy Rain's branching plotline.
For me, I never play games like this a second time or reload checkpoints because I like to believe my choice is set in stone and I have to live with it. I loved thinking that I could have actually saved Carley had I said or done something differently, but of course this was ruined as soon as I visited the internet.
Short version: I hate that the game has a cannon story, but would have been fine with that fact had I not known that.
That just made me realize there is a scene out there of Ben chopping Lee's arm off...
I know what my new goal is for when I replay...
A: Alter future dialog (or minor details), either directly or after calculating multiple decisions against one another. Or...
B: Delay an inevitable plot-point until you're back on the same track either way. Every single character that can be optionally saved/killed/abandoned will die/leave somewhere in the near future regardless.
It's nice how many old decisions get referenced often, but it's really no more groundbreaking than Mass Effect, to give one example.
Most games have a required A plot narrative, even when they have multiple endings. The real question is how do games disguise the rigidity of the A plot through narrative sleight of hand?
Fallout does this by compartmentalizing its B and C plots. The B plots and C plots, while numerous, are are usually completely ignored once you step outside of their spheres of influence. For instance, you can blow up the town of Megaton in Fallout 3 and NO ONE CARES. It almost never gets mentioned ever again. You can destroy Tenpenny Towers and outside of Tenpenny Towers there is no change to the game at all.
The game goes on like this until the end when a patchwork series of narrated alternate ending stillframes, each ten seconds long, reflect what you did. Even then, the game has the same A plot ending despite great variety in its recognition of your B and C plot exploits.
The Walking Dead plays harder and tighter with its B and C plots. The A plot will never change and keeps the same structure, but the B plots and C plots directly alter your story and change the decisions you make later on. Characters remember what you did in those subplots although the narrative will remain consistent. They will comment on your progression REPEATEDLY, initiate conversation with you in such a manner that they acknowledge the decisions you made, and generally consider your previous actions in their own response to situations.
If you take each Episode separately, it's obvious that the game acknowledges your B plot and C plot choices. As a whole, however, the game brushes off those choices in the end. But the climax of the game is DIRECTLY tied to the actions you've taken in B plot and C plot decisions and your effect on the world.
This is closer to Mass Effect than Fallout 3. And Mass Effect still demands credit for integrating broad choices your character has made into sequels. That said, Mass Effect 3's failure was that its climax truly ignores everything you had done up until that point. There is no surprise twist. There's no echo from the past. Once you walk away from Liara, you are entering the exact same storyline every other gamer has been playing and will witness plenty of prerendered animated scenes slightly altered based not on your decisions but on an arbitrary number easily affected by playing multiplayer sessions.
While it's true you can make a decision that alters the ending and choices you made will limit the variety of faces that appear in one of those cutscenes, the climax doesn't care about your friends one bit.
This puts The Walking Dead at an advantage. Your dialogue changes are DIRECTLY altered based on how you played the game. The entire climax is a reflection of your choices and your mindset and that of your friends. And you get to revisit them. So, yeah, your choices tailor THE GAME even if the ending is the same.
*You choose either Lilly or Kenny as your main friend
*Doug/Carley are still around so you gain the illusion they will meaningfully impact the story in some way
These, to me, were the big choices for episode 1 and 2. Episode 3 destroyed them. No matter how you treated Lilly she does the exact same thing and Doug/Carley both end up the same.
What if Kenny had bailed on you with his family because he didn't trust you and left you Lilly for the rest of the game? Telltale could afford keeping Doug/Carley around until episode 3 but couldn't think to do more dialogue for Lilly for episodes 4/5?
And the Doug/Carley incident... my gosh... the sole purpose of that scene was only meant to get rid of them. It seemed like the first half of episode 3 was just devoted to get rid of all the important relationships you built in episodes 1/2 so they didn't have to keep making them matter.
Then it continues for episode 4. Illusions of important decisions were:
*How you treat Vernon and if you tell him to take Clem or not.
*Who goes with you in the final episode. (I still remember the forum exploding with, "IT ALL MATTERS NOW! GO TT!"
*Ben's fate
Two of which were crushed in the same scene five minutes into the next episode. No matter how you treated Vernon he steals your stuff and no matter who goes with you everyone is together after the first five minutes of the episode.
On top of that, we wouldn't want to start thinking that anyone we try to save is going to survive huh? Ben just has to go halfway into the episode.
I still enjoyed the game, don't get me wrong. But anyone who thinks the game is "custom-fit", aka tailored, around your choices is delusional. It's a wonderful story and a great interactive movie but the game does not change based on choice and there is little reason to replay it.
The average, reasonable gamer played the episodes believing that the word 'adaptation' would result in an alternate ending than what we were fed. Instead, it has meant nothing more than a pointless round of choices that left us emotionally reminded of our ability to make good decisions within a small increment of time.
Time wasn't the enemy. Choices proved to be nothing more than a graphical representation of where we would end up in the scenes to come. It was not a true adaptation to choices as we soon learned that the story is the ultimate decision maker regardless of our own.
Did it really make any difference in the finale that the entire group went with Lee to find Clem? Where in the entire episode did Lee need anyone but himself to rescue Clem? While it comforted many to have company during the search, the choices only affected the stats before the credits.
So... This game series adapts to the choices you make. The story is tailored by how you play. is not a complete lie. It is an illusion or even a deception primarily used to make players believe choices would provide a certain story ending. The result of all that button mashing and mouse clicking is nothing more than wear and tear on a players gear.
If I played the game without making a single story choice, which is separate from action
choices like shooting a weapon or climbing a ladder, the story would adapt in such a way that it would flow to the end result. Without me, as a player, Lee would have been bitten , the stranger would have died, and Clem would still be facing an uncertain future, alone.
(How many times do we need to read this stuff?) We felt cheated in the finale because of the story ending, not the ability to affect the scenes within it. Controlling the scenes is what makes TWDG a game. Otherwise, we are merely mashing 'turn the page' buttons on a well thought out visual book.
In fact, it takes about 10-15 hours to read a good book. We did that in five episodes running about 2 hours on average (perhaps more for some). So yeah... we played an active role in a book that was graphically displayed... great idea and that is the only thing I really walked away with. The ending of this season was poorly thought out and made people question does this story adapt to the choices you make? Simply put... No.
@FreeWater: I agree - I'm not going to play it again. BUt I was curious enough about how it functions to look stuff up on this forum. Even learning that a fair bit of it is smoke and mirrors didn't really lessen my satisfaction with it. Like I say in the article - all art and storytelling is ultimately smoke and mirrors.
@bazenji: Very cool alternate explanation of how the plotting works.
@Fluffyburrito and others: I think you're still missing the point of what I was saying. The tailoring is to the emotional journey, not the main plot. If you look at it from that point of view, it's very much "tailored". The decisions I made certainly impacted me emotionally in specific ways, and I would have felt different had I made different choices.
Telltales own words [the first two paragraphs advertising the entire series]: "Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode.
Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series."
Maybe the apologists should actually do their homework. Everyone got exactly the same ending... There were no lasting consequences for anything... Not one single decision you made actually mattered one rats ass. You can like the game but wake up and see it for what it is at the same time. It might have been good in many ways but it still failed to live up to goals it initially set out to meet. For all the yours that Telltale threw out up there they ultimately decided that we were gonna damn well sit back and listen to the story that they provided. While it was a mostly compelling story that doesn't take away the fact that it wasn't our story.
[SNIP... Forgot this wasn't a spolier forum... Many examples of non-changeable story routes].
Don't give me any crapola about this did what it set out to do. It did not. Everything leads down the same linear path with occasionally different flavour text. There are no consequences for anything you do at all. ANYTHING. Period.
"Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode.
I think their marketing f'ed up and didn't need to mislead players like that. That said I don't feel cheated. The game is brilliant and I could care less that it was linear in nature. Even if the choices were insignificant to the plot (since the characters die anyway) they were still fun (at time agonizing) to make and that's what matters.
@GenConfusion: You're absolutely right - the game was in the experience of *making* the choices, plot consequences be damned. It may be true that some people expect choices that influence the plot, but that doesn't mean that's the best approach to making this style of game. I'd argue that The Walking Dead equals or trumps any game Bioware has ever made in terms of narrative engagement. As such, why don't we look at Telltale's game as an equally valid model?
With all that said I still enjoyed the game and I think it's a masterpiece. I hope though that they take it that extra mile in season two. If they can just go that little bit of an extra mile it will go from being a good game to being one of the best games ever created. I don't want Telltale to sit back and think well obviously no-one wants choices so lets just ignore that from now on. Hopefully it moves away from being a linear experience to a more open ended one. One where I can punch the next Kenny right in his face after he acts like a punk because I didn't help with his 'salt' problems.
And it did.
That's the thing. Notice it says "How your story plays out", NOT "Will alter the overall story". The way my story played out is different than yours. It DID alter. That is all they said.
I did. And I'm not apologizing, if you didn't like the game then you didn't like the game. And the bugs/customer service has been god-awful for this game.
Again people are just going with the "BUT LEE STILL DIED" conclusion. Where did it say MAJOR DETAILS were changed? If you can find where Telltale themselves said that, then fine. So far all I'm seeing is the same "Story is tailored to how you play" which did happen with minor details changing.
It failed some(episodic) succeeded at others(story), and it did succeed here(again, all I see are "Your story plays out differently than others", which is true. Granted there are some "really?" moments in the story (the fact that the group meets up in the end even after that dramatic "I'm going" "I'm not" part of episode 4 was pure bullcrap... still want to see if Ben cuts Lee's arm off...), but it certainly is this "NOTHING CHANGED" argument I've seen.
Again, you seem to flat out ignore the details that DID change. Kenny flat out hated me by the end of the game, while others had Kenny become BFFS. I got the guilt of knowing Ben get's an arguably worse death if you save him in episode 4. While others feel guilt that he died by their hands. I had Doug, others have Carley(Yeah yeah yeah, "THEY DIED STILL" fantastic, they still were with me 2 episodes longer than before)
And I got to watch Telltale fail at figuring out how the heck Lee needs to climb a latter with one arm
Again, you are just looking at the broad story, which didn't change. The details did. Also, calling it "flavor text" isn't exactly how to diminish it and make it nonimportant. You seem to be forgetting how YOU reacted. My decisions led me to hate Kenny personally, others became great friends with him. That wasn't flavor text, that was YOUR reactions. Same with Lilly.
The game doesn't need to constantly tell you "HEY YOU HELPED MURDER AN OLD MAN IN FRONT OF HIS DAUGHTER!" to "live with the consequences". You still helped murder Larry, you still killed Ben/gave him a worse fate, you still stabbed a St Johns farmer with a pitchfork, you still chose Carley over Doug, you still fought Kenny, you still did all of this. These WERE my choices, and the consequences were guilt of what I done, and how the characters reacted me. Yes I still died in the end, that was the destination, THIS was the journey.
Go ahead and ignore all the details that changed and go with "LEE STILL DIED! KENNY STILL DIED!" etc. I won't argue that, this is just a message to everyone, quit ignoring the details that DID change. If you want to argue, don't argue that NOTHING changed, argue that you wish MORE changed(which be honest, we all do).
It's okay to state your opinion, but if you're willing to go as far as insult the developers, then please stop. The developers worked mighty hard on this game, and I enjoyed every second of it. Don't ruin my fun while I'm looking on these forums to chat about my experiences.
Sometimes I wear a red tie to work... Sometimes I wear a blue tie... Does this change anything? Not really...
Just because little tidbits of dialogue changed doesn't mean that this accounts for long lasting consequences. It's not about that Lee died. It's about the fact that everything Lee did prior to dying was for nothing. All the "Clementine will remember that." or other character's "he/she will remember that" moments were for nothing.
And don't even get me started on Kenny... Perfect example. You do everything for that guy, you feed his family, you save his family, you kiss the ground he walks on and what does he do if you don't help him salt lick Larry? He leaves you for dead twice and hates you for the rest of the game... Umm what? How does that take into account any of my prior actions? You basically press a giant Kenny will treat you passive-aggressively or Kenny will bromance you button and nothing else you do matters. There are heaps of examples of this kind of thing but the Kenny thing is probably the best one.
I respect elements of your argument but I still completely disagree with your point of view on the matter.
I'm not sure if you're talking to me or anyone else but as far as I'm concerned I don't feel I've insulted the developers. I stated multiple times I liked the game and the game was good even so far as regarding it as a "masterpiece" but that's not going to stop me from offering some criticism that a lot of people in the community are also feeling. I have stated that either their advertising was misleading or they failed in their initial objective in providing a branching story. I stand by that statement. No-one is trying to mess with your enjoyment of the game.
Perhaps you are referring to what I termed 'the apologists'. This is because I don't believe just because you recognise the elements of good in something you should ignore the elements that weren't so good or could be improved. If people want a better Season 2 they need to offer reasonable critcism of Season 1. I don't think reasonable critcism is anything like Lee died so the story sucked. I do think that not having enough player choice is a reasonable critcism though.
If you choices in season 1 have been confirmed to cross over to season 2 why are you saying most likely? Either it hasn't been confirmed and it is most likely to happen or it's been confirmed full stop. I agree that saving Carly or Doug makes a difference even if it's just aesthetic and brief because one will be in the 2nd episode and one won't but that is the only significant change in the game based on your choices of the 4 points you listed.
If you give irene the gun she kills herself if you don't she takes it from you and kills herself. If you shoot Duck or Kenny shoots Duck it makes no real difference. Both Lee and Kenny are in the scene next to each other any way. It doesn't effect your friendship, Kenny's mood or behavior, it's purely about what you the gamer thinks is best. Should I take the burden off my friend or should I let him be the one to kill his son. As for the 4th point of who is in your team, the game decides this for you after episode 1. Ben can die at the end of ep4(you have to add him to your group in ep2) if you choose not to save him or die in ep 5. Who you pick to come with you to save to Clem makes no difference since you go back to the house and reunite with anyone you left there and look for Clem as a group. The decision to go alone in ep 4 is only with regards to Vernon's base which the game transports you to after you make your decision who to go with or rather they make the decision to go with you. The members of the group are predetermined to live or die regardless, though Doug,Carly and Ben can die at different times they are still the ones that will die and Christa will still survive till the end of ep5.
With regards to Telltale's reason's for killing of Lee I don't think you or I can truly say for sure unless we worked on their staff team, all we can do is speculate. Personally I think it was done for shock effect (killing the stories protagonist)to pull the rug from beneath us. If his death was necessary for Clementine's development Rick Grimes would have died a long time ago. Carl would have learned more from Rick in life than Clementine would learn from Lee's death. Personally I would have preferred for Lee to have died after reuniting Clementine with Christa and the story ending than Lee failing to bring Clementine to Christa before he died, her leaving the city by her self and us getting another season to play as another character. But that's just me.
With regards to how people feel about you based on your choices all of the people in Lee's original group were dead(Clementine aside), Christa and Omid came in the game late and didn't really know much about how you treated other group members in earlier episodes. The people that were in you group even if you treated them bad they will still play their part for sequences to play out. I completely rebuffed Kenny in Ep 5 after he refused to help me find Clem in ep 4 and in ep5 he was a complete different person, asking how I was etc. I practically blanked him through out ep 5. The only time I remember responding to him before he died was in the attic when I called him a bastard, yet Telltale wanted to give him a heroic send off where he is encouraging me to go without him, like I needed encouraging.
Choice matters? It is the illusion of choice and we are disillusioned if we think the game could play out any differently based on our choices. The game merely makes you feel in control of your choices. Women have been doing this to men for centuries and millenia. Making men think that they were in control and that they thought of an idea when really,they were prompted by suggestion.
Still a great emotional game though but lets call a spade a spade. Choices matter in Heavy Rain, choices in the walking dead game do not, not in the grand scale of things.
With regards to the comment about it being too long for them to have multiple endings, when you consider how significantly shorter the episode was I think they could have had at least 1 alternative ending. The 2 ways that the choices we made could of mattered would have been if there was an alternate ending from the one we all received or if the surviving group members were different based on our choices, though I accept the latter would have been very difficult and time consuming they could have had 2 endings which were computer generated based on the feed back of your actions in game.(I don't mean having an ending where Lee lives) Having the guy on the radio remind me that Telltale were keeping track by telling me all of the things I have done which I already know I had done is not a consequence of my actions. He would have kidnapped Clementine regardless.
Regarding the point of how characters opinions shaped by your actions were the tailored made experience there are inconsistencies with that and contradictory behavior. If that was such I would have been considered a saint in the eyes of the guy on the radio since I didn't take his food. Now, I have worked in the mental health field and I know from first hand experience that a paranoid delusional person like Clementine's abductor would have sided with me once he had seen how I treated Kenny from ep 3-5, the person he claimed to be after in my play through and the fact that I didn't steal his stuff I should not have appeared responsible for his circumstances yet it had to play out that way for everybody. Where is the tailor made experience there. I didn't want that, my actions in the game should not have reflected his response to me. That was as of the rack as you can get if where using clothing metaphors. Regarding Kenny I kept pushing him away and was generally ungracious towards him in ep5 but he just kept coming back, smiling like we were still friends. It seemed disjointed. He was telling Christa how we had gone through so much, implying that we were friends really and I responded calling him a bastard and he was still happy. Then in his final moments he was acting like we were best friends and I hated the guy and didn't hide it from ep3 on wards.
From what I have read everybody is pretty much in agreement that it was a great game, people are mostly commenting on the little impact choice actually made when it seemed to be a big point in their advertising campaign. I loved the game. Did I think choices mattered? No
I don't know, that seems like someone being told they have to drink two drinks but they can choose what drink they drink first. If I choose for Lee to walk over the walk way with the banner first it breaks, if I choose for Lee to wait for christa and omid to cross over before sending Lee over it breaks to force Lee apart from christa and omid. I'm not sure i'd say the outcome is altered enough for the games journey to feel that different. The point is that these variations are too small. If Lee and Christa were parted at another point in the game then yeah, like if it was a different scene. But if we are talking about journey's i'm pretty sure my play through would cover the same scenes,people and places as everyone else.
1. Doesn't matter, they both die in the end.
2. Doesn't matter, she takes the gun in the end.
3. Doesn't matter, Kenny 'dies'/goes missing in the end.
4. Doesn't matter, you all get back together in the end.
Saving Doug or Carley, for example, you get to have the pleasure of meeting and getting to know someone. Have a romance or a bromance. I get it, they're not real, but the creators wrote them so realistically that I was actually really fond of them.
Point being, this game isn't a standard game where I'm just driven to win, in this game I'm actually driven emotionally. I wasn't driven for the need to win the game when I was looking for Clem, I actually wanted to save her because she means something to me. I know it's horribly sappy, but it's just special and I'm disappointed people actually have the views like "oh I saved Carley and she didn't help me beat the game so like what was the point in saving her!!"
Finally, someone gets it.
Um no... Are you deliberately ignoring the large amount of pages that people have linked to in this thread showing that Telltale promised lasting consequences and a branching story? Please go actually open the official promotional page for the game, read it, come back.
I could honestly say the plot would likely suffer if the writers had to design multiple outcomes to the game. Would you want that? Would you want another Mass Effect?
Yeah you could feel bitter that "omg me giving food to Larry didn't do anything WHAT THE FUUUUUU" or you could have fun with this AMAZING GAME. I'm not even fucking wanking it too, this game is simply amazing.
As I said before too, this game isn't about how your decisions effect gameplay, it's how it affects you personal. I mean sure me saying "I'll... miss you" to Clem didn't have any effect on the game, it did however make me cry. I'd rather have that emotional connection rather then what you people wanted. Unless you wanted both, well then good luck finding a gaming company that's capable of that shit.
No, I'm not. I honestly read every post in this thread (seriously) and my thoughts on the issue can be found here: http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=734501#post734501
Read THAT, and then come back and talk to me. Also, stop being an ass. #lawyer'd
The choices are great, characters are realistic. I see a lot of players are emotionally invested. It's one of the best games I've played this year, but it can be even greater if choices mattered. That's all.
The article is dead on and it is why I love the game so much. Its draws you in. Even though you know that it will send the same no matter what you do, it does not at the same time. Who is with you through the story, who has your back, who will leave you to die if you can't save yourself. Is so much more powerful to me playing this game then if everyone gets the same ending. Its not the destination but the journey.
I was planning to play through again and see some other possibilities. I went to the internet to see what those other possibilities might be...and I was severely disillusioned to find out that no matter what I did the same people would be with me.
I hadn’t been expecting changes to the overarching narrative (we get on the train, Duck and Katjaa die tragically, Clem gets kidnapped, etc) but I had expected who I’d be with to be a variable. It still wouldn’t “really” effect the plot because no matter who you had with you characters would still take on the same roles: one person wants to stay put, one person wants to keep moving. Who those two characters are doesn’t matter to the plot but it does change things for the player emotionally. The player chooses who to side with, but then the walkers force the plot forward regardless. Ultimately, who your companions are is just extremely fancy window dressing, it doesn’t represent a branch in the plot. It wouldn’t be especially hard to script, but it would be a bitch to render all the possibilities.
Anyway that’s the level of “tailoring” I was expecting based on the way it felt when I played through the first time. I felt like I had effected who lived and who died, but in reality I hadn’t. That was disappointing.
And when I stopped to think about it I definitely felt as if my decisions didn’t matter:
the teacher and not-Ben student both die immediately no matter what
Kenny won’t listen to you if you try to protect Larry, no matter how nice you’ve been
Lilly will up and shoot someone for no reason no matter how gentle of a mediator you’ve been
Omid breaks his stupid leg no matter what you do
Vernon betrays you no matter how nice you’ve been
Kenny will heroically sacrifice himself no matter how much of a jerk you’ve been
The crazy guy at the end is mad at you whether you stole his food or not.
The problem has nothing to do with this or that press release, or even the fact that I couldn’t effect those events. What leaves me feeling annoyed, or even betrayed, is that while I was playing the game it MADE ME THINK I could effect those type of things, when in reality I couldn’t.
Maybe Telltale was trying to say that the cruel hands of fate rule us all, that it’s hopeless to try to effect the actions of others. Maybe leading us to feel guilty about events we ultimately had no control over is part of some profound existential message...
Or maybe Telltale just bit off more than they could chew and ended up delivering a product with fewer options than they had hoped.
"A tailored game experience – Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode. Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series." - That's the description from the Steam store.
There's a video on TellTale's Youtube Channel called "Choice Matters." In it, the Episode 3 designer says that in the comics, Rick makes choices that drastically effect his chances of survival. He's basically using weasel words to give you the illusion that your choices will matter without saying it. And when people complain they can just point back and say "we said it tailored to your choices." Watch it, the whole video gives the impression we'll make choices that matter, when in actuality, the choices yield the same results no matter what. Ben always dies. So does Carley and Doug. Clem always gets kidnapped. Lee always perishes. So choice doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
That's the problem people have with it and if you ask me, it's a valid complaint. People can keep trying to write it off, but it's a valid issue with many gamers who thought the game was going to be more... consequential. As for me, I could care less, I just wanted a better written ending than what we got.
That's a bingo.
So what you're saying is your thoughts on the issue are more authoritive than Telltales own official marketing which comes straight from the development team?
Also... Complains about other person being an ass... Ends his post with "#lawyer'd"... Nope...
If you want an example of how to write a relatively good post that disagrees with someone by attacking the argument and not the person please refer to CarScar above you. I might not agree with CarScar but I respect his ability to discuss a point of difference like an adult.
Is this a bad joke? Of course it's not true.
TTG made a nice little interactive comic, sold it as something else entirely, and managed to piss of a lot of the people who would have otherwise enjoyed this adequate time-passer.
It was like your buddy fixing you up for a blind date, telling you the pleasant, very average girl you were meeting was a supermodel with a Phd. If he'd been honest, it could have been a perfectly decent evening. Instead, you spent dinner wishing she was even remotely as advertised.
It was far worse, of course, for pc users. The little relevance your choices had vanished entirely when the software couldn't manage to carry from one episode to the next the necessary but very small handful of variables.
As for the gameplay, what a thrill! Only by staring at the vase falling on Clem does it finally miss her. What a treat it was, to discover it took something completely unintuitive for you to escape listening to her skull caving in one... more... time.
Well, we knew the fix was in, what with the completely random journey over to the rooftop and belltower, then the completely random return to the mansion. Talk about cheap-o location recycling. And they couldn't even give us the catharsis of a happy ending where we get some clue as to whether Clem made it five feet past the door? [Rolls eyes]
Very weak, Telltale. Very weak, indeed.
Choice doesn't matter in the minor scheme of things in episode 5. What's particularly sad is the game's few defenders have been rapidly reduced to claiming, "But it's how you FEEL about the choices you made that's important!"
"So what you're saying is your thoughts on the issue are more authoritive than Telltales own official marketing which comes straight from the development team?"
I laughed. Because if there's one thing we can trust more than politicians, it's marketing teams, right? Good one.
This bore repeating. It's an excellent summary of what is, after all, very little more than a pleasant interactive comic with a weak ending.
We saw the strings no later than midway throught the first episode, so in this sense TWD game failed, and failed miserably.
Worst of all, the ending was a hopeless bungle. Lee's great sacrifice is no sacrifice at all. First, it's unimaginable that Clem, if she even survives the city (and recall that we forgot to, you know, actually tell her how to find Omid and Christa--oops!), won't be forever haunted by the image of zombie Lee chained to a radiator in a windowless room for all eternity. The big deal he makes, that she shouldn't shoot him, is horribly, horribly misguided. Putting down someone before they turn is extremely cathartic. It was a point of honor and pride and closure for Carl to put down Lori in the tv series. In the game it completely spoils the whole ending. Clem doesn't get that closure.
Second, are you kidding me? We're left with no cutscene, no reunion with Omid and Christa where we see Clem finally escape? It's clear that TTG badly rushed the entire episode, but this was the worst sort of failure. It played exactly as though the developer simply hit the wall of a deadline and had to quit without finishing. Talk about the strings showing.
Very, very disappointing.
Even though, you know, it won't change her behavior in the slightest, and even though we'll never know WHAT she thinks of your behavior. It's so satisfying to grasp that she's thinking about it.
Idiot.
We get it, you wanted your choices to be super meaningful blah blah blah. While you bitch about how your choices didn't effect the game I'll be enjoying this game because it has a great plot and great characters.
Cheers.