Well, I won't complain about TWD getting a GOTY award but I also can't deny its flaws - most of the choices don't really matter, in the end it's all about branching dialogues, characters exchanged (Doug/Carley) and some cut-scenes altered. The overall gist is always the same and as people already said - Heavy Rain does the evolving plot thingy a lot better.
The puzzles are non-existent and what stays at the end is the terribly good story. Just for coming up with a serious and adult plot this game deserves the GOTY. Gaming is full of childish stories (warrior/whatever against evil/nazis/whatever) it's understandable that it's still not taken as serious as movies or books. TWD goes beyond the stupidness and shallowness of ordinary games - that's why I think it's important it got the GOTY award.
I really hope that the next season improves on really making your decisions matter and not just letting us feel that they do. Or maybe some harder puzzles, just something which makes this more like a real game.
For a first attempt you must expect flaws, no?
Season 2 should bring a different outlook.
Hopefully telltale will build upon itself, and progress.
I was watching this one walkthrough of the game on my Classroom's computer. One of my classmates asked me what the game was about. I told him the basics of the game, then, as soon as I finished explaining, all I got was a "Lol it doesn't even have explosions". Worst of all, is that most of my classmates would answer with something similar. Edit: Some of them call themselves Gamers, too, while they just play Call of Duty and PES/FIFA
I was watching this one walkthrough of the game on my Classroom's computer. One of my classmates asked me what the game was about. I told him the basics of the game, then, as soon as I finished explaining, all I got was a "Lol it doesn't even have explosions". Worst of all, is that most of my classmates would answer with something similar. Edit: Some of them call themselves Gamers, too, while they just play Call of Duty and PES/FIFA
People like the one's you just described^ are the main reasons why video games will never evolve into something more.
I was watching this one walkthrough of the game on my Classroom's computer. One of my classmates asked me what the game was about. I told him the basics of the game, then, as soon as I finished explaining, all I got was a "Lol it doesn't even have explosions". Worst of all, is that most of my classmates would answer with something similar. Edit: Some of them call themselves Gamers, too, while they just play Call of Duty and PES/FIFA
well maybe when they are old enough to actually play COD they will want more from a game than just explosions
I was watching this one walkthrough of the game on my Classroom's computer. One of my classmates asked me what the game was about. I told him the basics of the game, then, as soon as I finished explaining, all I got was a "Lol it doesn't even have explosions". Worst of all, is that most of my classmates would answer with something similar. Edit: Some of them call themselves Gamers, too, while they just play Call of Duty and PES/FIFA
THIS. Seriously, none of my classmates know about TWDG and the one who does says it's too boring although he only played half of episode 1. Not even my dad liked it probably because he only plays COD and Battlefield.
Can I...defend...the people that don't think it should have won GOTY for a second? I know I'm probably going to be flamed for all hell for this, but I really think I should say something.
I will not deny that TWD was a good experience. In fact, it was quite a great one. However...does that make it a good game? Not necessarily.
The best way I can describe TWD is a "visual choose-your-own-adventure novel with QTEs". Again, as I feel I have to stress this every paragraph, it's absolutely amazing at being that, with stellar story, graphics, and presentation. The people annoyed at it winning GOTY aren't ALL "this sucks no explosions", some of us just equate this, to, say, if The Dark Knight Rises won GOTY. A bit out-of-place, wouldn't you say?
I honestly feel that many of you have found it to be such an amazing experience, (and it IS), that you've overlooked the fact that there's barely any gameplay. If all movement was removed, and the game was released as a visual novel instead of an "adventure" game, a term that I can not truthfully apply to TWD thanks to the complete lack of puzzles, would you still feel like it should have won GOTY on the story/presentantion alone?
And, no, before you ask, I don't want COD or Halo to win GOTY. My personal choices are Trials, Fez, and MAYBE Dishonored.
The Walking Dead won game of the year because of its fans. Obviously those other games didn't win because they didn't have a comparable fan base. Any whining in retrospect is just sour grapes.
Can I...defend...the people that don't think it should have won GOTY for a second? I know I'm probably going to be flamed for all hell for this, but I really think I should say something.
I will not deny that TWD was a good experience. In fact, it was quite a great one. However...does that make it a good game? Not necessarily.
The best way I can describe TWD is a "visual choose-your-own-adventure novel with QTEs". Again, as I feel I have to stress this every paragraph, it's absolutely amazing at being that, with stellar story, graphics, and presentation. The people annoyed at it winning GOTY aren't ALL "this sucks no explosions", some of us just equate this, to, say, if The Dark Knight Rises won GOTY. A bit out-of-place, wouldn't you say?
I honestly feel that many of you have found it to be such an amazing experience, (and it IS), that you've overlooked the fact that there's barely any gameplay. If all movement was removed, and the game was released as a visual novel instead of an "adventure" game, a term that I can not truthfully apply to TWD thanks to the complete lack of puzzles, would you still feel like it should have won GOTY on the story/presentantion alone?
And, no, before you ask, I don't want COD or Halo to win GOTY. My personal choices are Trials, Fez, and MAYBE Dishonored.
The thing is if TWDG was not an interactive media... will it still be this compelling? I don't think so. A huge part that make this game so amazing is because "you are Lee", this kinda unique element only "games" can deliver.
Can I...defend...the people that don't think it should have won GOTY for a second? I know I'm probably going to be flamed for all hell for this, but I really think I should say something.
I will not deny that TWD was a good experience. In fact, it was quite a great one. However...does that make it a good game? Not necessarily.
The best way I can describe TWD is a "visual choose-your-own-adventure novel with QTEs". Again, as I feel I have to stress this every paragraph, it's absolutely amazing at being that, with stellar story, graphics, and presentation. The people annoyed at it winning GOTY aren't ALL "this sucks no explosions", some of us just equate this, to, say, if The Dark Knight Rises won GOTY. A bit out-of-place, wouldn't you say?
I honestly feel that many of you have found it to be such an amazing experience, (and it IS), that you've overlooked the fact that there's barely any gameplay. If all movement was removed, and the game was released as a visual novel instead of an "adventure" game, a term that I can not truthfully apply to TWD thanks to the complete lack of puzzles, would you still feel like it should have won GOTY on the story/presentantion alone?
And, no, before you ask, I don't want COD or Halo to win GOTY. My personal choices are Trials, Fez, and MAYBE Dishonored.
It may have been more like a book, or more appropriately, a movie but, at the end of the day, it's still a game. I can honestly say I've never been more interested, more emotionally embedded into a game until now. It was an amazing experience and I feel like it's definitely one of my favorite games. I know for a fact that many people feel the same way as me, and if that isn't a good enough reason for a game to win game of the year then I don't know what is. It's interesting, and unique, to say the least that a game like this won a GOTY but I definitely believe it deserves to because I've never felt this way about a game before. There's games that have tried (e.g. Heavy Rain) but it just didn't work.
Yeah Assassin's Creed (or what have you) had more gameplay involved but I still had a way better time playing The Walking Dead and that's what it should really come down to for GOTY. What game did you honestly enjoy the most.
It may have been more like a book, or more appropriately, a movie but, at the end of the day, it's still a game. I can honestly say I've never been more interested, more emotionally embedded into a game until now. It was an amazing experience and I feel like it's definitely one of my favorite games. I know for a fact that many people feel the same way as me, and if that isn't a good enough reason for a game to win game of the year then I don't know what is. It's interesting, and unique, to say the least that a game like this won a GOTY but I definitely believe it deserves to because I've never felt this way about a game before. There's games that have tried (e.g. Heavy Rain) but it just didn't work.
Yeah Assassin's Creed (or what have you) had more gameplay involved but I still had a way better time playing The Walking Dead and that's what it should really come down to for GOTY. What game did you honestly enjoy the most.
"Playing" is the word that's a bit problematic here, though. Aside from the QTEs(do they really even count?), the better word might be "directing", or again, "experiencing", Again, it was a GREAT experience, but don't games need to have gameplay?
GOTY should be an award based on ALL a game's aspects. TWD can win story or presentation awards all it wants, but the gaping hole where "gameplay" would be is why many have a problem with it getting this award.
"Playing" is the word that's a bit problematic here, though. Aside from the QTEs(do they really even count?), the better word might be "directing", or again, "experiencing", Again, it was a GREAT experience, but don't games need to have gameplay?
GOTY should be an award based on ALL a game's aspects. TWD can win story or presentation awards all it wants, but the gaping hole where "gameplay" would be is why many have a problem with it getting this award.
Hm? I thought it was fantastic how you can direct the conversations in any way you wish 'cause, as I said before, I was heavily embedded into the game emotionally. It felt as though I developed real relationships with real people in the game through the system. This is another testament to Telltale's writing, I actually felt something for the characters. E.g. my choice to save Carley nor my choice to develop a love interest in the character (something me, the player, decided to do) may not have mattered in the long run, but I still felt something real there. It wouldn't have worked if it were a movie because it wasn't me getting into the relationship, it would just be some shmuck. That sounds really creepy that I felt that way towards a bunch of pixels, but, once more, that's just a testament to this game. I'd be surprised if you, at the very least, didn't feel that way towards Clementine. Simply put, it just worked.
It's hard to articulate my thoughts here, but that is enough for it to be GOTY for me. Simply because I enjoyed it more than any other game due to the reasons above. It'd be a little silly if people had the mentality like: "hm, so I liked The Walking Dead game the most by far and I consider it to be one of, if not the, best games I've ever played... buuuut the Assassin's Creed allowed me to do more running around so that gets my vote!" You should just vote for the game you thought was, overall, the best, enjoyable and, simply put, the game you liked the most.
It's a little silly that you said you'd much prefer a game like, what I'm assuming you meant when you said Trials, Trials Evolution to win. A game solely based around gameplay when you said you'd want a game that's good in all aspects. I honestly think a game that's superb at making me interested, making me actually think, and making me actually care is a lot better then a game that has a subpar plot, doesn't interest me, and has decent gameplay (that's pretty much all games ever made).
Can I...defend...the people that don't think it should have won GOTY for a second? I know I'm probably going to be flamed for all hell for this, but I really think I should say something.
I will not deny that TWD was a good experience. In fact, it was quite a great one. However...does that make it a good game? Not necessarily.
The best way I can describe TWD is a "visual choose-your-own-adventure novel with QTEs". Again, as I feel I have to stress this every paragraph, it's absolutely amazing at being that, with stellar story, graphics, and presentation. The people annoyed at it winning GOTY aren't ALL "this sucks no explosions", some of us just equate this, to, say, if The Dark Knight Rises won GOTY. A bit out-of-place, wouldn't you say?
I honestly feel that many of you have found it to be such an amazing experience, (and it IS), that you've overlooked the fact that there's barely any gameplay. If all movement was removed, and the game was released as a visual novel instead of an "adventure" game, a term that I can not truthfully apply to TWD thanks to the complete lack of puzzles, would you still feel like it should have won GOTY on the story/presentantion alone?
And, no, before you ask, I don't want COD or Halo to win GOTY. My personal choices are Trials, Fez, and MAYBE Dishonored.
I notice that EVERYONE that uses this reasoning says "barely any gameplay" if it's not a game then the statement needs to be "absolutely no gameplay". If there's "barely any gameplay" that's still gameplay and enough to warrant it being considered as a game.
I also think that the people who use this reasoning fail to think outside the standard gameplay box. Much of TWDs game was in making what you would perceive as hard decisions, those were TWDs puzzles. They're not your standard "combine x inventory item with y inventory item and use xy inventory item on pixel z" puzzles. They were more "weigh the perceived repercussions of making decision x over decision y" puzzles.
In the end, it all comes down to "my favourite game didn't win so i'm going to throw crap at the game that did win and the people who voted for it" Though atleast this time the age old "big publisher bought the win!" conspiracy can't be rolled out.
I notice that EVERYONE that uses this reasoning says "barely any gameplay" if it's not a game then the statement needs to be "absolutely no gameplay". If there's "barely any gameplay" that's still gameplay and enough to warrant it being considered as a game.
Is the gameplay any good, though? That's kind of a factor.
I also think that the people who use this reasoning fail to think outside the standard gameplay box. Much of TWDs game was in making what you would perceive as hard decisions, those were TWDs puzzles. They're not your standard "combine x inventory item with y inventory item and use xy inventory item on pixel z" puzzles. They were more "weigh the perceived repercussions of making decision x over decision y" puzzles.
In the end, it all comes down to "my favourite game didn't win so i'm going to throw crap at the game that did win and the people who voted for it" Though atleast this time the age old "big publisher bought the win!" conspiracy can't be rolled out.
Oh, no, some of us have been "throwing crap" here ever since BTTF happened. It's not just this one game, it's the steady decline of adventure games heralded by the company founded by the original creators of the best games of the genre.
Is the gameplay any good, though? That's kind of a factor.
Yes, next?
Those aren't puzzles, they're moral quandaries.
In the context of the game they're puzzles, again you simply do not wish to look outside the box. This is a shame really, it's thinking like this that has people screaming "innovate!" but then lets those innovations flounder at the at the store.
Oh, no, some of us have been "throwing crap" here ever since BTTF happened. It's not just this one game, it's the steady decline of adventure games heralded by the company founded by the original creators of the best games of the genre.
What does back to the future have to do with it? Now you're blaming one game for another. I might aswell say Halo 4 shouldn't be GOTY because halo reach sucked.
In the context of the game they're puzzles, again you simply do not wish to look outside the box. This is a shame really, it's thinking like this that has people screaming "innovate!" but then lets those innovations flounder at the at the store.
Innovative? 999 did this same thing years ago. Would I call those decisions "puzzles", either? No.
What does back to the future have to do with it? Now you're blaming one game for another. I might aswell say Halo 4 shouldn't be GOTY because halo reach sucked.
It's more along the lines of "If Microsoft was the ONLY big company who made shooters anymore, and then slowly removed all the enemies and guns until half the reasons people play shooters were not there at all, would you like it if they were praised more than they ever have been before if their biggest game goes down this same declining path? Would you ever expect them to go back to their original style after that?"
That's what's happening to Telltale, and they're becoming a bigger company by each game since BTTF.
RingmasterJ5 i think you just need to ask yourself "what is a computer game?" and "is TWD a computer game?"
i think i would have to write an essay on the subject of the first question, but i can simply answer the second with "yes" and because i can say that TWD is a game and it is the best one i have played all year i voted it as my GOTY
i think i would have to write an essay on the subject of the first question, but i can simply answer the second with "yes" and because i can say that TWD is a game and it is the best one i have played all year i voted it as my GOTY
Again, personal GOTYs are fine. The thing I have a problem with here is that this thread is lumping everyone that doesn't think TWD should win such an all-encompassing reward from major gaming publications in with those COD-loving "bro gamers". There are other choices besides COD and TWD.
If you can count QTEs as gameplay, yes. If you can't, then it's an extremely well-done visual novel.
Again, personal GOTYs are fine. The thing I have a problem with here is that this thread is lumping everyone that doesn't think TWD should win such an all-encompassing reward from major gaming publications in with those COD-loving "bro gamers". There are other choices besides COD and TWD.
i agree, maybe the tone of this thread is a bit insulting and full of sweeping generalisations, but that doesn't change the fact that people feel that TWD is the best game of the year.
and the QTE's aren't the main "gameplay" the conversations are in my opinion, but then of course that could be debatable as to whether you feel that is gameplay
i agree, maybe the tone of this thread is a bit insulting and full of sweeping generalisations, but that doesn't change the fact that people feel that TWD is the best game of the year.
and the QTE's aren't the main "gameplay" the conversations are in my opinion, but then of course that could be debatable as to whether you feel that is gameplay
I don't feel that conversations are gameplay, but I won't say that they weren't extremely interesting.
I don't want to sound like "This game only won because of this one reason", but seriously, I think TWD got a large boost of votes from people that only played it because of the TV show, who don't normally play any other games.
Also, for the people that have the ability to, but it's unlikely: If you can, try to play all the TTG games in order. Failing that, at least TDP-BTTF-JP-TWD. You'll actually notice a steady shift from hard puzzles to much easier QTEs, which has some long-time fans quite worried as each game gets even more well-received than the last.
I don't feel that conversations are gameplay, but I won't say that they weren't extremely interesting.
I don't want to sound like "This game only won because of this one reason", but seriously, I think TWD got a large boost of votes from people that only played it because of the TV show, who don't normally play any other games.
Also, for the people that have the ability to, but it's unlikely: If you can, try to play all the TTG games in order. Failing that, at least TDP-BTTF-JP-TWD. You'll actually notice a steady shift from hard puzzles to much easier QTEs, which has some long-time fans quite worried as each game gets even more well-received than the last.
i have played BTTF and JP, i hated the QTE's in JP but there were puzzles in it, i liked BTTF and i think it had a good balance of puzzles and story (i felt bad making Trixie Trotter loose her job, and that happened because of a puzzle) maybe the puzzles could be harder, but one thing that can ruin a point and click adventure and either get you stuck for ever/use everything on everything until something works or just use a guide are puzzles that don't actually make sense, and i think telltale is trying to make point and click adventure game where the puzzles actually make sense and have an actual logic to them.
telltale isn't the only company that makes point and click adventures and there are tonnes of games you can play that have convoluted puzzles in them, that may satisfy your need for "hard puzzles"
i have played BTTF and JP, i hated the QTE's in JP but there were puzzles in it, i liked BTTF and i think it had a good balance of puzzles and story (i felt bad making Trixie Trotter loose her job, and that happened because of a puzzle) maybe the puzzles could be harder, but one thing that can ruin a point and click adventure and either get you stuck for ever/use everything on everything until something works or just use a guide are puzzles that don't actually make sense, and i think telltale is trying to make point and click adventure game where the puzzles actually make sense and have an actual logic to them.
telltale isn't the only company that makes point and click adventures and there are tonnes of games you can play that have convoluted puzzles in them, that may satisfy your need for "hard puzzles"
Wait, what other TTG games have you played? A lot of their older games(before BTTF) had those same odd puzzles that only made sense in the circumstances of the world the game takes place in.
And, of course there are other companies. However, those don't have the Sam and Max or King's Quest licenses.
I don't feel that conversations are gameplay, but I won't say that they weren't extremely interesting.
I feel conversations are an important part of gameplay and part of the 'puzzles' you so miss. They are another kind of puzzles though, social puzzles in a way. And they arent the kind of puzzles that force you to do them before you can procede, they have many different outcomes.
I feel conversations are gameplay, and they have been ever since games like Baldur's Gate made how you treated NPC's in conversations an important part of how they treated you back.
And of all games using conversations as gameplay, TWD simply does it best and in an innovative way. Two major things were done here that other, bigger, titles with conversations (Like Mass Effect) do not do well:
1) The (almost) constant option of NOT speaking and letting the characters around you determine the outcome themselves.
2) The way timing a comment can also change the flow of a conversation, like those moments the group discusses and you see the meter coming down. The timing of your comment can change the outcome of it in an interpersonal relationships kind of way. For example: Cutting in before Kenny had a chance to say something stupid and hurt everyone's feelings.
I don't want to sound like "This game only won because of this one reason", but seriously, I think TWD got a large boost of votes from people that only played it because of the TV show, who don't normally play any other games.
You don't want to sound, yet you still do. Saying something is getting a "large boost" in voters is the same as saying "they won because of", sorry.
Also, I think that fact is less important than you think for one simple reason: How many TV viewers who only came to this game because it was Walking Dead would take the effort to vote on the VGA? I do not believe it is that much.
Also, this again goes to what makes games games. And this comment does smell a lot like "Obama only won because of immigrants" and has a lot of negative tones to it. I think it is GREAT that TWD brings new people into gaming that otherwise wouldn't play video games. Video games are not the sole right of the "Gamer". Especially if video games, as a medium for storytelling, want to be taken seriously it is very important that games hit new markets of players.
So, to me, any game that does that ESPECIALLY deserves to made GOTY.
So because the game opened the flood gates for Story Based games as well as getting in a new market of players, unlike any of the other titles nominated this year, I believe this game deserved to be GOTY more than anything.
The GOTY's we remember are the GOTY's that made a difference. Games like Half Life, Baldur's Gate and others.. Games who changed the face of a genre. And TWD did just that.
Wait, what other TTG games have you played? A lot of their older games(before BTTF) had those same odd puzzles that only made sense in the circumstances of the world the game takes place in.
And, of course there are other companies. However, those don't have the Sam and Max or King's Quest licenses.
i have played loads of point and click adventures made by loads of different companies.
if you don't think story is part of gameplay why do you care about licences?
I feel conversations are an important part of gameplay and part of the 'puzzles' you so miss. They are another kind of puzzles though, social puzzles in a way. And they arent the kind of puzzles that force you to do them before you can procede, they have many different outcomes.
I feel conversations are gameplay, and they have been ever since games like Baldur's Gate made how you treated NPC's in conversations an important part of how they treated you back.
Except, Baldur's Gate was an RPG. It wasn't ENTIRELY decisions.
And if I wanted to go play a visual novel for "social puzzles", I'd, again, go play 999/Zero Escape, where your choices matter even more than they do in TWD.
And of all games using conversations as gameplay, TWD simply does it best and in an innovative way. Two major things were done here that other, bigger, titles with conversations (Like Mass Effect) do not do well:
1) The (almost) constant option of NOT speaking and letting the characters around you determine the outcome themselves.
2) The way timing a comment can also change the flow of a conversation, like those moments the group discusses and you see the meter coming down. The timing of your comment can change the outcome of it in an interpersonal relationships kind of way. For example: Cutting in before Kenny had a chance to say something stupid and hurt everyone's feelings.
Again, while I won't deny that TWD did it better, at least Mass Effect had things other than decisions.
You don't want to sound, yet you still do. Saying something is getting a "large boost" in voters is the same as saying "they won because of", sorry.
Also, I think that fact is less important than you think for one simple reason: How many TV viewers who only came to this game because it was Walking Dead would take the effort to vote on the VGA? I do not believe it is that much.
Of course, the constant advertising on Spike, a channel which is not focused entirely on gamers, probably helped.
Also, this again goes to what makes games games. And this comment does smell a lot like "Obama only won because of immigrants" and has a lot of negative tones to it. I think it is GREAT that TWD brings new people into gaming that otherwise wouldn't play video games. Video games are not the sole right of the "Gamer". Especially if video games, as a medium for storytelling, want to be taken seriously it is very important that games hit new markets of players.
So, to me, any game that does that ESPECIALLY deserves to made GOTY.
So because the game opened the flood gates for Story Based games as well as getting in a new market of players, unlike any of the other titles nominated this year, I believe this game deserved to be GOTY more than anything.
The GOTY's we remember are the GOTY's that made a difference. Games like Half Life, Baldur's Gate and others.. Games who changed the face of a genre. And TWD did just that.
And all it took was the company that revived the point-and-click adventure genre to sell out to the masses and completely forget why they were founded over their last few releases, potentially morphing the entire definition of the genre in the general public's eye into "amazing-looking visual novel".
if you don't think story is part of gameplay why do you care about licences?
Okay, here's a question: With their current output, do you think that TTG can do justice to their upcoming King's Quest game? Will it(in your opinion), or should it, be as difficult as the originals?
But none from TTG? I'm trying to make a point on how visible their decline in difficulty is.
Okay, here's a question: With their current output, do you think that TTG can do justice to their upcoming King's Quest game? Will it(in your opinion), or should it, be as difficult as the originals?
YES FROM TTG BUT NOT ONLY TTG
why don't you list every game you have ever played then i will decided whether your opinion is valid.
and i haven't played kings quest.
in my opinion getting stuck because a puzzle has no logical way to solve it doesn't equal difficult it just equals bad puzzle design.
and if you don't think story is part of gameplay why do you care about licences?
Except, Baldur's Gate was an RPG. It wasn't ENTIRELY decisions.
But Baldur's Gate changed the face of RPG Games for years to come. It started the idea of having a group of 'companions' each with their own stories that are as interesting to explore as the main story. It started the trend of 'romances' in game and it showed that a turn based system could be converted to a realtime game system.
It was revolutionary for it's time. Doing the same now would not be revolutionary anymore. So you can't blame TWD that it doesn't have other things than story because "important big games of the past had more than story". Genres change, what people want from games change.
Baldur's Gate, in today's market, would not faire well because it required a huge time investment. People no longer buy games to invest hundreds of hours in them, they buy games to entertain them in a more interactive way than films, books and music does. And this is exactly what TWD video game does very, very well.
The strength of TWD compared to Baldur's Gate and Half Life is that it has zero big time sinks. The biggest time sink is probably the train puzzle. It is a very efficiently told story and because of that keeps people eager for more.
TTG shown they understand you need to mix what people do up every 10-15 minutes to keep them entertained. And think back: how often in this game were you doing the same thing for 15 minutes?
Again, while I won't deny that TWD did it better, at least Mass Effect had things other than decisions.
Indeed, they had timesinks filled with shooter action or running around planets/spaceships to the next conversation where the real decisions were made (almost always a 2 choice conflict)
I enjoyed the entire Mass Effect series for what it was. But it's gameplay was not a stellar example of a strong squad based shooter (which it essentially was).
Of course, the constant advertising on Spike, a channel which is not focused entirely on gamers, probably helped.
And all it took was the company that revived the point-and-click adventure genre to sell out to the masses and completely forget why they were founded over their last few releases, potentially morphing the entire definition of the genre in the general public's eye into "amazing-looking visual novel".
Possibly, but it doesn't change the simple fact that getting more people into enjoying games is always better than having less people do it. So anything that makes more people become included is better.
You, to me, sound a lot like an old geek (which i mean in a friendly way! I consider myself a huge, and old, geek as well) who hasn't come to terms with the fact that their favorite pass-time has become more mainstream. Saying all new changes to their thing from the past are for the worst, they "dumb things down" and make it less enjoyable to you and, because of that, worse games in general.
The phallacy in the argument is that for every person clinging to the old, 10 newer, younger players.. not much different then you were in your young years.. come into games entirely fresh and without the burden of previous experience. These people enjoy these games for what they are, not what they are not.
These people are the future.. not the old generation who misses what they used to have and keep looking for new experiences that are, essentially, how they experienced these things when they were the youngsters stepping into these things with open minds and without the burden of past experience.
Shamefully though.. that is not possible. And I believe a general outset of celebrating things for what they are instead of attacking them for what they are not is a much more healthy and enjoyable way of experiencing games and life in general.
The main thing here is that Lee's story would not have been nearly as effective if it wasn't interactive. People got engaged because they were making choices, and agonizing over what they could have done differently. This wouldn't have been possible in a book or on screen.
TWD could advance video game story-telling in general. My hope is that AAA games steal some ideas from TWD. This would vindicate its GOTY win.
why don't you list every game you have ever played then i will decided whether your opinion is valid.
and i haven't played kings quest.
in my opinion getting stuck because a puzzle has no logical way to solve it doesn't equal difficult it just equals bad puzzle design.
and if you don't think story is part of gameplay why do you care about licences?
You're seriously asking me why I care about how a supposed adventure game company treats two of the largest series in the genre? It has nothing to do with story, it could be set in Superman's asshole for all I care. I just don't want them to replace the puzzles with decisions again.
Also, cartoon logic is different from real logic. When you have a bowling ball that waters plants the solution does not have to strictly be about bowling.
Possibly, but it doesn't change the simple fact that getting more people into enjoying games is always better than having less people do it. So anything that makes more people become included is better.
You, to me, sound a lot like an old geek (which i mean in a friendly way! I consider myself a huge, and old, geek as well) who hasn't come to terms with the fact that their favorite pass-time has become more mainstream. Saying all new changes to their thing from the past are for the worst, they "dumb things down" and make it less enjoyable to you and, because of that, worse games in general.
The phallacy in the argument is that for every person clinging to the old, 10 newer, younger players.. not much different then you were in your young years.. come into games entirely fresh and without the burden of previous experience. These people enjoy these games for what they are, not what they are not.
These people are the future.. not the old generation who misses what they used to have and keep looking for new experiences that are, essentially, how they experienced these things when they were the youngsters stepping into these things with open minds and without the burden of past experience.
Shamefully though.. that is not possible. And I believe a general outset of celebrating things for what they are instead of attacking them for what they are not is a much more healthy and enjoyable way of experiencing games and life in general.
So, basically, TTG have discovered a formula that works well enough for them to keep bringing new players in without ever having to worry about gameplay, while losing nothing but their much-smaller-in-comparison original fanbase? Great for them, but I surely won't be around to see it.
But, seriously: If the decisions of TWD were added to a game of any genre, I'd have none of these problems. I just feel like, unlike Baldur's Gate(which just was re-released in today's market, by the way), these genre-wode changes aren't a good thing. We already have a seperate visual novel genre, do we really need adventure games to be assimilated into that?
I don't feel that conversations are gameplay, but I won't say that they weren't extremely interesting.
I don't want to sound like "This game only won because of this one reason", but seriously, I think TWD got a large boost of votes from people that only played it because of the TV show, who don't normally play any other games.
Also, for the people that have the ability to, but it's unlikely: If you can, try to play all the TTG games in order. Failing that, at least TDP-BTTF-JP-TWD. You'll actually notice a steady shift from hard puzzles to much easier QTEs, which has some long-time fans quite worried as each game gets even more well-received than the last.
You're seriously asking me why I care about how a supposed adventure game company treats two of the largest series in the genre? It has nothing to do with story, it could be set in Superman's asshole for all I care. I just don't want them to replace the puzzles with decisions again.
Also, cartoon logic is different from real logic. When you have a bowling ball that waters plants the solution does not have to strictly be about bowling.
i understand cartoon logic
what would you consider a difficult puzzle that is still logically sound?
they didn't replace puzzles with decisions they made a new game.
i honestly don't think they would ever make a sam and max game for example that is like TWD, if they did i would have issues with it as well.
i just don't think they should make the puzzles convoluted and only solvable if you are the person who made the game or you just use everything on everything
Figuring out the train controls, taking out the zombies to rescue Glenn in episode one, distracting Andy to buy some time to get the barn open in episode 2, distracting the zombies in the sewers in episode four; these are all puzzles. It's gameplay. They're fairly easy puzzles for anyone familiar with the adventure genre, but they're still puzzles.
TWD has a game over screen. It's possible to die in the game (I died several times) -- the ability to die and start over again is something that's emblematic in most games.
I mean, I understand people saying that it's a different *type* of game. It is. But people claiming it's nothing more than a glorified choose-your-own-adventure might not see that there are *many* things within TWD that lend credence to it being a traditional adventure game.
Anyone ever play A Mind Forever Voyaging? It's an old Infocom text adventure game, one of the most well regarded. Game had a total of one puzzle in it -- the rest was exploration and soaking in the atmosphere. Still one of the best game I've ever played.
Adventure games are evolving -- TWD evidences that. It's perfectly fine to criticize the gameplay as not being your cup of tea, but these claims that it's not a game just don't fly with me.
what would you consider a difficult puzzle that is still logically sound?
they didn't replace puzzles with decisions they made a new game.
i honestly don't think they would ever make a sam and max game for example that is like TWD, if they did i would have issues with it as well.
i just don't think they should make the puzzles convoluted and only solvable if you are the person who made the game or you just use everything on everything
You can't think of any?
Off the top of my head, it's a bit hard to think of a a specific example. The Monkey Island games were full of good puzzles, surely you've played them?
Figuring out the train controls, taking out the zombies to rescue Glenn in episode one, distracting Andy to buy some time to get the barn open in episode 2, distracting the zombies in the sewers in episode four; these are all puzzles. It's gameplay. They're fairly easy puzzles for anyone familiar with the adventure genre, but they're still puzzles.
TWD has a game over screen. It's possible to die in the game (I died several times) -- the ability to die and start over again is something that's emblematic in most games.
I mean, I understand people saying that it's a different *type* of game. It is. But people claiming it's nothing more than a glorified choose-your-own-adventure might not see that there are *many* things within TWD that lend credence to it being a traditional adventure game.
Anyone ever play A Mind Forever Voyaging? It's an old Infocom text adventure game, one of the most well regarded. Game had a total of one puzzle in it -- the rest was exploration and soaking in the atmosphere. Still one of the best game I've ever played.
Adventure games are evolving -- TWD evidences that. It's perfectly fine to criticize the gameplay as not being your cup of tea, but these claims that it's not a game just don't fly with me.
But why does "evolution" mean a complete loss of the difficulty the genre is known for?
Off the top of my head, it's a bit hard to think of a a specific example. The Monkey Island games were full of good puzzles, surely you've played them?
But why does "evolution" mean a complete loss of the difficulty the genre is known for?
I'm asking you because i don't know what you mean by hard puzzles, when i think of hard puzzles it's puzzles that don't make sense and i only solve by using everything on everything, the easy puzzles are the ones that make sense and i do straight away, and the maybe the average puzzles are the sort of mini-game puzzles that wouldn't fit in a game like TWD but are fine in something like broken sword
I didn't vote for The Walking Dead on game of the year but I can see it's a good game (I love it). Personally I think it misses much stuff to be considered game of the year. Absolutely no rebindable keys. No language or even subtitles except for English. Mediocre graphics at best, low texture quality. Gameplay mediocre at best.
The only thing great about the game really is story, voiceacting and characters. But apparently that was so exceptional that all other factors were ignored.
I am fine with it being Spikes GOTY but I can see why people wouldn't agree. Personally I voted for Dishonered as it impressed me the most this year. Walking Dead is still in my top 3 this year.
In the end no matter which game wins any rewards, fanboys of the competition will ALWAYS be mad if they didn't win.
I'm asking you because i don't know what you mean by hard puzzles, when i think of hard puzzles it's puzzles that don't make sense and i only solve by using everything on everything, the easy puzzles are the ones that make sense and i do straight away, and the maybe the average puzzles are the sort of mini-game puzzles that wouldn't fit in a game like TWD but are fine in something like broken sword
I'm not sure you're the right audience for the type of old LucasArts adventure games I'm talking about.
The puzzles ARE supposed to be hard, but not impossible. You have to take everything you've learned into account,
Most of the "use everything on everything" puzzles mean you've just overlooked something(has happened to me before).
I am the audience of the old LucasArts adventure game, my favorite adventure game ever is day of the tentacles.
you just cant think of a hard puzzle that makes sense because actually they aren't hard, they just make you feel clever
I'm having trouble figuring out a list because of the fact that I'd first need to know what your definition of "puzzles that only make you feel clever" are. Give me some examples, and I can find some real puzzles that don't use the tropes that are hopefully apparent in your examples.
You CAN meticulously look through all dialogue to see where uses are referenced, or you can take a gigantic hammer to it and skip through all dialogue and mash everything together with every other thing, it's all about how you play it.
Comments
For a first attempt you must expect flaws, no?
Season 2 should bring a different outlook.
Hopefully telltale will build upon itself, and progress.
People like the one's you just described^ are the main reasons why video games will never evolve into something more.
well maybe when they are old enough to actually play COD they will want more from a game than just explosions
THIS. Seriously, none of my classmates know about TWDG and the one who does says it's too boring although he only played half of episode 1. Not even my dad liked it probably because he only plays COD and Battlefield.
You are now my new fav person! Majora's Mask is my fav game of all time!
I will not deny that TWD was a good experience. In fact, it was quite a great one. However...does that make it a good game? Not necessarily.
The best way I can describe TWD is a "visual choose-your-own-adventure novel with QTEs". Again, as I feel I have to stress this every paragraph, it's absolutely amazing at being that, with stellar story, graphics, and presentation. The people annoyed at it winning GOTY aren't ALL "this sucks no explosions", some of us just equate this, to, say, if The Dark Knight Rises won GOTY. A bit out-of-place, wouldn't you say?
I honestly feel that many of you have found it to be such an amazing experience, (and it IS), that you've overlooked the fact that there's barely any gameplay. If all movement was removed, and the game was released as a visual novel instead of an "adventure" game, a term that I can not truthfully apply to TWD thanks to the complete lack of puzzles, would you still feel like it should have won GOTY on the story/presentantion alone?
And, no, before you ask, I don't want COD or Halo to win GOTY. My personal choices are Trials, Fez, and MAYBE Dishonored.
The thing is if TWDG was not an interactive media... will it still be this compelling? I don't think so. A huge part that make this game so amazing is because "you are Lee", this kinda unique element only "games" can deliver.
sorry for poor english
Yeah Assassin's Creed (or what have you) had more gameplay involved but I still had a way better time playing The Walking Dead and that's what it should really come down to for GOTY. What game did you honestly enjoy the most.
"Playing" is the word that's a bit problematic here, though. Aside from the QTEs(do they really even count?), the better word might be "directing", or again, "experiencing", Again, it was a GREAT experience, but don't games need to have gameplay?
GOTY should be an award based on ALL a game's aspects. TWD can win story or presentation awards all it wants, but the gaping hole where "gameplay" would be is why many have a problem with it getting this award.
It's hard to articulate my thoughts here, but that is enough for it to be GOTY for me. Simply because I enjoyed it more than any other game due to the reasons above. It'd be a little silly if people had the mentality like: "hm, so I liked The Walking Dead game the most by far and I consider it to be one of, if not the, best games I've ever played... buuuut the Assassin's Creed allowed me to do more running around so that gets my vote!" You should just vote for the game you thought was, overall, the best, enjoyable and, simply put, the game you liked the most.
It's a little silly that you said you'd much prefer a game like, what I'm assuming you meant when you said Trials, Trials Evolution to win. A game solely based around gameplay when you said you'd want a game that's good in all aspects. I honestly think a game that's superb at making me interested, making me actually think, and making me actually care is a lot better then a game that has a subpar plot, doesn't interest me, and has decent gameplay (that's pretty much all games ever made).
I notice that EVERYONE that uses this reasoning says "barely any gameplay" if it's not a game then the statement needs to be "absolutely no gameplay". If there's "barely any gameplay" that's still gameplay and enough to warrant it being considered as a game.
I also think that the people who use this reasoning fail to think outside the standard gameplay box. Much of TWDs game was in making what you would perceive as hard decisions, those were TWDs puzzles. They're not your standard "combine x inventory item with y inventory item and use xy inventory item on pixel z" puzzles. They were more "weigh the perceived repercussions of making decision x over decision y" puzzles.
In the end, it all comes down to "my favourite game didn't win so i'm going to throw crap at the game that did win and the people who voted for it" Though atleast this time the age old "big publisher bought the win!" conspiracy can't be rolled out.
You can have personal GOTYs all you want. Do I want Trials to win some award? Yes. Will it, though? No, because of the same reason. Same with Fez.
Also, if choices matter so much, then why isn't this getting any awards? The choices in that game matter even MORE than they do in TWD.
Is the gameplay any good, though? That's kind of a factor.
Those aren't puzzles, they're moral quandaries.
Oh, no, some of us have been "throwing crap" here ever since BTTF happened. It's not just this one game, it's the steady decline of adventure games heralded by the company founded by the original creators of the best games of the genre.
Innovative? 999 did this same thing years ago. Would I call those decisions "puzzles", either? No.
It's more along the lines of "If Microsoft was the ONLY big company who made shooters anymore, and then slowly removed all the enemies and guns until half the reasons people play shooters were not there at all, would you like it if they were praised more than they ever have been before if their biggest game goes down this same declining path? Would you ever expect them to go back to their original style after that?"
That's what's happening to Telltale, and they're becoming a bigger company by each game since BTTF.
i think i would have to write an essay on the subject of the first question, but i can simply answer the second with "yes" and because i can say that TWD is a game and it is the best one i have played all year i voted it as my GOTY
Something with gameplay.
If you can count QTEs as gameplay, yes. If you can't, then it's an extremely well-done visual novel.
Again, personal GOTYs are fine. The thing I have a problem with here is that this thread is lumping everyone that doesn't think TWD should win such an all-encompassing reward from major gaming publications in with those COD-loving "bro gamers". There are other choices besides COD and TWD.
i agree, maybe the tone of this thread is a bit insulting and full of sweeping generalisations, but that doesn't change the fact that people feel that TWD is the best game of the year.
and the QTE's aren't the main "gameplay" the conversations are in my opinion, but then of course that could be debatable as to whether you feel that is gameplay
I don't feel that conversations are gameplay, but I won't say that they weren't extremely interesting.
I don't want to sound like "This game only won because of this one reason", but seriously, I think TWD got a large boost of votes from people that only played it because of the TV show, who don't normally play any other games.
Also, for the people that have the ability to, but it's unlikely: If you can, try to play all the TTG games in order. Failing that, at least TDP-BTTF-JP-TWD. You'll actually notice a steady shift from hard puzzles to much easier QTEs, which has some long-time fans quite worried as each game gets even more well-received than the last.
i have played BTTF and JP, i hated the QTE's in JP but there were puzzles in it, i liked BTTF and i think it had a good balance of puzzles and story (i felt bad making Trixie Trotter loose her job, and that happened because of a puzzle) maybe the puzzles could be harder, but one thing that can ruin a point and click adventure and either get you stuck for ever/use everything on everything until something works or just use a guide are puzzles that don't actually make sense, and i think telltale is trying to make point and click adventure game where the puzzles actually make sense and have an actual logic to them.
telltale isn't the only company that makes point and click adventures and there are tonnes of games you can play that have convoluted puzzles in them, that may satisfy your need for "hard puzzles"
Wait, what other TTG games have you played? A lot of their older games(before BTTF) had those same odd puzzles that only made sense in the circumstances of the world the game takes place in.
And, of course there are other companies. However, those don't have the Sam and Max or King's Quest licenses.
I feel conversations are gameplay, and they have been ever since games like Baldur's Gate made how you treated NPC's in conversations an important part of how they treated you back.
And of all games using conversations as gameplay, TWD simply does it best and in an innovative way. Two major things were done here that other, bigger, titles with conversations (Like Mass Effect) do not do well:
1) The (almost) constant option of NOT speaking and letting the characters around you determine the outcome themselves.
2) The way timing a comment can also change the flow of a conversation, like those moments the group discusses and you see the meter coming down. The timing of your comment can change the outcome of it in an interpersonal relationships kind of way. For example: Cutting in before Kenny had a chance to say something stupid and hurt everyone's feelings.
You don't want to sound, yet you still do. Saying something is getting a "large boost" in voters is the same as saying "they won because of", sorry.
Also, I think that fact is less important than you think for one simple reason: How many TV viewers who only came to this game because it was Walking Dead would take the effort to vote on the VGA? I do not believe it is that much.
Also, this again goes to what makes games games. And this comment does smell a lot like "Obama only won because of immigrants" and has a lot of negative tones to it. I think it is GREAT that TWD brings new people into gaming that otherwise wouldn't play video games. Video games are not the sole right of the "Gamer". Especially if video games, as a medium for storytelling, want to be taken seriously it is very important that games hit new markets of players.
So, to me, any game that does that ESPECIALLY deserves to made GOTY.
So because the game opened the flood gates for Story Based games as well as getting in a new market of players, unlike any of the other titles nominated this year, I believe this game deserved to be GOTY more than anything.
The GOTY's we remember are the GOTY's that made a difference. Games like Half Life, Baldur's Gate and others.. Games who changed the face of a genre. And TWD did just that.
i have played loads of point and click adventures made by loads of different companies.
if you don't think story is part of gameplay why do you care about licences?
Except, Baldur's Gate was an RPG. It wasn't ENTIRELY decisions.
And if I wanted to go play a visual novel for "social puzzles", I'd, again, go play 999/Zero Escape, where your choices matter even more than they do in TWD.
Again, while I won't deny that TWD did it better, at least Mass Effect had things other than decisions.
Of course, the constant advertising on Spike, a channel which is not focused entirely on gamers, probably helped.
And all it took was the company that revived the point-and-click adventure genre to sell out to the masses and completely forget why they were founded over their last few releases, potentially morphing the entire definition of the genre in the general public's eye into "amazing-looking visual novel".
But none from TTG? I'm trying to make a point on how visible their decline in difficulty is.
Okay, here's a question: With their current output, do you think that TTG can do justice to their upcoming King's Quest game? Will it(in your opinion), or should it, be as difficult as the originals?
YES FROM TTG BUT NOT ONLY TTG
why don't you list every game you have ever played then i will decided whether your opinion is valid.
and i haven't played kings quest.
in my opinion getting stuck because a puzzle has no logical way to solve it doesn't equal difficult it just equals bad puzzle design.
and if you don't think story is part of gameplay why do you care about licences?
It was revolutionary for it's time. Doing the same now would not be revolutionary anymore. So you can't blame TWD that it doesn't have other things than story because "important big games of the past had more than story". Genres change, what people want from games change.
Baldur's Gate, in today's market, would not faire well because it required a huge time investment. People no longer buy games to invest hundreds of hours in them, they buy games to entertain them in a more interactive way than films, books and music does. And this is exactly what TWD video game does very, very well.
The strength of TWD compared to Baldur's Gate and Half Life is that it has zero big time sinks. The biggest time sink is probably the train puzzle. It is a very efficiently told story and because of that keeps people eager for more.
TTG shown they understand you need to mix what people do up every 10-15 minutes to keep them entertained. And think back: how often in this game were you doing the same thing for 15 minutes?
Indeed, they had timesinks filled with shooter action or running around planets/spaceships to the next conversation where the real decisions were made (almost always a 2 choice conflict)
I enjoyed the entire Mass Effect series for what it was. But it's gameplay was not a stellar example of a strong squad based shooter (which it essentially was).
Possibly, but it doesn't change the simple fact that getting more people into enjoying games is always better than having less people do it. So anything that makes more people become included is better.
You, to me, sound a lot like an old geek (which i mean in a friendly way! I consider myself a huge, and old, geek as well) who hasn't come to terms with the fact that their favorite pass-time has become more mainstream. Saying all new changes to their thing from the past are for the worst, they "dumb things down" and make it less enjoyable to you and, because of that, worse games in general.
The phallacy in the argument is that for every person clinging to the old, 10 newer, younger players.. not much different then you were in your young years.. come into games entirely fresh and without the burden of previous experience. These people enjoy these games for what they are, not what they are not.
These people are the future.. not the old generation who misses what they used to have and keep looking for new experiences that are, essentially, how they experienced these things when they were the youngsters stepping into these things with open minds and without the burden of past experience.
Shamefully though.. that is not possible. And I believe a general outset of celebrating things for what they are instead of attacking them for what they are not is a much more healthy and enjoyable way of experiencing games and life in general.
TWD could advance video game story-telling in general. My hope is that AAA games steal some ideas from TWD. This would vindicate its GOTY win.
You're seriously asking me why I care about how a supposed adventure game company treats two of the largest series in the genre? It has nothing to do with story, it could be set in Superman's asshole for all I care. I just don't want them to replace the puzzles with decisions again.
Also, cartoon logic is different from real logic. When you have a bowling ball that waters plants the solution does not have to strictly be about bowling.
So, basically, TTG have discovered a formula that works well enough for them to keep bringing new players in without ever having to worry about gameplay, while losing nothing but their much-smaller-in-comparison original fanbase? Great for them, but I surely won't be around to see it.
But, seriously: If the decisions of TWD were added to a game of any genre, I'd have none of these problems. I just feel like, unlike Baldur's Gate(which just was re-released in today's market, by the way), these genre-wode changes aren't a good thing. We already have a seperate visual novel genre, do we really need adventure games to be assimilated into that?
Jurassic Park was well received?
Commercially, not so much critically.
i understand cartoon logic
what would you consider a difficult puzzle that is still logically sound?
they didn't replace puzzles with decisions they made a new game.
i honestly don't think they would ever make a sam and max game for example that is like TWD, if they did i would have issues with it as well.
i just don't think they should make the puzzles convoluted and only solvable if you are the person who made the game or you just use everything on everything
TWD has a game over screen. It's possible to die in the game (I died several times) -- the ability to die and start over again is something that's emblematic in most games.
I mean, I understand people saying that it's a different *type* of game. It is. But people claiming it's nothing more than a glorified choose-your-own-adventure might not see that there are *many* things within TWD that lend credence to it being a traditional adventure game.
Anyone ever play A Mind Forever Voyaging? It's an old Infocom text adventure game, one of the most well regarded. Game had a total of one puzzle in it -- the rest was exploration and soaking in the atmosphere. Still one of the best game I've ever played.
Adventure games are evolving -- TWD evidences that. It's perfectly fine to criticize the gameplay as not being your cup of tea, but these claims that it's not a game just don't fly with me.
You can't think of any?
Off the top of my head, it's a bit hard to think of a a specific example. The Monkey Island games were full of good puzzles, surely you've played them?
But why does "evolution" mean a complete loss of the difficulty the genre is known for?
I'm asking you because i don't know what you mean by hard puzzles, when i think of hard puzzles it's puzzles that don't make sense and i only solve by using everything on everything, the easy puzzles are the ones that make sense and i do straight away, and the maybe the average puzzles are the sort of mini-game puzzles that wouldn't fit in a game like TWD but are fine in something like broken sword
The only thing great about the game really is story, voiceacting and characters. But apparently that was so exceptional that all other factors were ignored.
I am fine with it being Spikes GOTY but I can see why people wouldn't agree. Personally I voted for Dishonered as it impressed me the most this year. Walking Dead is still in my top 3 this year.
In the end no matter which game wins any rewards, fanboys of the competition will ALWAYS be mad if they didn't win.
I'm not sure you're the right audience for the type of old LucasArts adventure games I'm talking about.
The puzzles ARE supposed to be hard, but not impossible. You have to take everything you've learned into account,
Most of the "use everything on everything" puzzles mean you've just overlooked something(has happened to me before).
I am the audience of the old LucasArts adventure game, my favorite adventure game ever is day of the tentacles.
you just cant think of a hard puzzle that makes sense because actually they aren't hard, they just make you feel clever
I'm having trouble figuring out a list because of the fact that I'd first need to know what your definition of "puzzles that only make you feel clever" are. Give me some examples, and I can find some real puzzles that don't use the tropes that are hopefully apparent in your examples.
You CAN meticulously look through all dialogue to see where uses are referenced, or you can take a gigantic hammer to it and skip through all dialogue and mash everything together with every other thing, it's all about how you play it.