I'm having trouble figuring out a list because of the fact that I'd first need to know what your definition of "puzzles that only make you feel clever" are. Give me some examples, and I can find some real puzzles that don't use the tropes that are hopefully apparent in your examples.
You CAN meticulously look through all dialogue to see where uses are referenced, or you can take a gigantic hammer to it and skip through all dialogue and mash everything together with every other thing, it's all about how you play it.
that is what makes them easy and what makes you feel clever
why dont you first list some hard puzzles then i can tell you why they are easy :rolleyes:
that is what makes them easy and what makes you feel clever
why dont you first list some hard puzzles then i can tell you why they are easy :rolleyes:
Getting the root in Monkey Island, using the blackmail tape in Phoenix Wright(a game that actually has real "dialogue puzzles"), stopping Myra's hypnosis in Situation:Comedy, getting Coach Z to punch Bubs in Baddest of the Bands(not that hard, but quite relevant to the kind of puzzle I'm talking about), and getting rid of the Mariachis in Chariots of the Dogs?
I thought that was the point. Just by pressing buttons, you could get emotionally bounded with the story and it's characters. TWDG certainly has more gameplay than point-and-click video games. Choosing the dialogues, and being able to explore your surroundings was already enough, imo, to be called gameplay. For me, it was worthy of being the GOTY, and that's about it. I just wanted to share my opinion, because, frankly, we are never going to agree on this
Getting the root in Monkey Island, using the blackmail tape in Phoenix Wright(a game that actually has real "dialogue puzzles"), stopping Myra's hypnosis in Situation:Comedy, getting Coach Z to punch Bubs in Baddest of the Bands(not that hard, but quite relevant to the kind of puzzle I'm talking about), and getting rid of the Mariachis in Chariots of the Dogs?
i have never played Phoenix Wright, but you are basically saying that needing to use lots of items is what you like and consider hard (monkey island), also i thought you were saying that new adventure games were easy (including the newer sam and max games), but you were more specifically talking about Jurassic park and TWD that have very few items to use, i would say they are more a sub-genre of adventure games.
i haven't got a great memory but when you said hard puzzles the main thing that came to mind for me was in discworld 2 where you had to use timing to pickpocket the barber (the only timing based puzzle with nothing to tell you to use timing, where use everything on everything doesn't solve that ) and as i said i don't think they would make sam and max into the type of game TWD or JP is.
so actually i agree more with you than i thought, i just thought you were putting the older Lucasarts type games in a magic bubble that could never be matched, and just saying all new games were easy
i have never played Phoenix Wright, but you are basically saying that needing to use lots of items is what you like and consider hard (monkey island), also i thought you were saying that new adventure games were easy (including the newer sam and max games), but you were more specifically talking about Jurassic park and TWD that have very few items to use, i would say they are more a sub-genre of adventure games.
i haven't got a great memory but when you said hard puzzles the main thing that came to mind for me was in discworld 2 where you had to use timing to pickpocket the barber (the only timing based puzzle with nothing to tell you to use timing, where use everything on everything doesn't solve that ) and as i said i don't think they would make sam and max into the type of game TWD or JP is.
so actually i agree more with you than i thought, i just thought you were putting the older Lucasarts type games in a magic bubble that could never be matched, and just saying all new games were easy
No, what I'm trying to say is that the degree of gameplay-based difficulty in TTG's games are declining rapidly. Even TDP had a bit of a different "feel" to it, but it wasn't really a bad thing at the time because nothing much came of it. Then, their very next game was BTTF, a much easier game that even included a few QTEs if I remember correctly. Then JP, L&O, and TWD came out one after the other, seemingly cementing TTG's new direction of story-over-gameplay.
(Hector doesn't really count even though I want it to, as it was made by Strandlooper and published by TTG.)
The thing besides the classic licenses that makes this troubling, though, is the fact that TTG is THE big adventure game company, and the only one many people know. Wadjet Eye and Daedaelic are still making the old style of games, but who the hell knows who they are? And with TWD still being called an "adventure game" no matter what, how long until that's the common definition?
No, what I'm trying to say is that the degree of gameplay-based difficulty in TTG's games are declining rapidly. Even TDP had a bit of a different "feel" to it, but it wasn't really a bad thing at the time because nothing much came of it. Then, their very next game was BTTF, a much easier game that even included a few QTEs if I remember correctly. Then JP, L&O, and TWD came out one after the other, seemingly cementing TTG's new direction of story-over-gameplay.
(Hector doesn't really count even though I want it to, as it was made by Strandlooper and published by TTG.)
The thing besides the classic licenses that makes this troubling, though, is the fact that TTG is THE big adventure game company, and the only one many people know. Wadjet Eye and Daedaelic are still making the old style of games, but who the hell knows who they are? And with TWD still being called an "adventure game" no matter what, how long until that's the common definition?
hopefully there is room for both "point and click adventure games" and "story driven adventure games" no matter how great i think TWD is i don't think "monkey island the drama" would work
hopefully there is room for both "point and click adventure games" and "story driven adventure games" no matter how great i think TWD is i don't think "monkey island the drama" would work
Disney owns Monkey Island now, so the closest we'll probably get is Monkey Island the Platformer or something.
Well, unless this happens, which might be unlikely.
Alot of forums like Neogaf, and N4G are whining and complaining how the walking dead won goty, saying, quote "it's not even a game", and silly comments like a downloable shouldn't be considered on the same level as a big budget game like halo 4.
A bunch of nonsense, and a bunch of "BAH, Walking Dead shouldn't have won goty" from ALOT of people who've never even touched the game.
Quite sad really.
I agree with the quote "it's not even a game". The Walking Dead the Game really isn't a game. It's a giant rollercoaster ride, a huge cutscene that is occasionally interrupted by quick-time-events, movement and dialogue. Everything is scripted, there is not a single decision that has any larger impact on the plot. Most decisions result in minor dialogue changes and that's about it. People die during cutscenes, even the main protagonist dies because he's being railroaded to get bitten and those deaths feel all way too "forced" and "cheap", hence why people are "mad" about Lee's fate. Any bigger elements in the plot are copied from the comic books. Salt lick dilemma? It's from the comics, ableit a little bit different, but thematically the same. Starring: Glenn's GF as Larry. Abe as Kenny and Rick Grimes as Lee. Kenny shooting Duck? All been there: The black dude with his zombified son, only that the moron didn't kill Duane but let him free, instead. Crawford or Woodbury? Hunters, Bandits? The only new thing is the cannibal family, but hey. It was kinda obvious and it's not like there are no movies about such things out there. TWDTG's magnificent story isn't that magnificent after all. It only surprises with forced deaths, but those surprises are nothing but annoying, since they feel just beyond lame. This "game" has so much railroading in it that it really makes me wonder why the did chose PC and consoles as a plattform for it. It's more like a movie, or a novel with some characteristics of a video game....
...and it's a shame, since this game could have been so much more, than what it is. If you make a game that is all about the story, then don't be lazy and write a proper one, or it becomes an abomination just like ME3. If you choose to make a video game, then FFS make a video game, not some giant cutscene with a little bit of walking and quick-time-events here and there. If you claim that the story is tailored by my decisions, then FFS why is there only one ending? Why does not a single decision that I made throughout 5 episodes have any impact on the story?
TWDTG isn't a bad game, but GOTY? I don't know. It started extremely promising, but became more and more lame with each episode. It's The Walking Dead the GAME, not The Walking Dead the Rollercoaster Ride.
Fanboys might be blind to criticism, maybe even react hostile towars critics, but that's how it is. This "game" has some flaws and problems. There are some issues with the story and some developer decisions are nothing but bad. Forcing things to happen is never a good way. People want interactivity.
why do we care? the experts meaning vg critics and vg devs all agreed it was an amazing game. its just little fanboy idiots complaining, the old school trolls even agree its GOTY.
I agree with the quote "it's not even a game". The Walking Dead the Game really isn't a game. It's a giant rollercoaster ride, a huge cutscene that is occasionally interrupted by quick-time-events, movement and dialogue. Everything is scripted, there is not a single decision that has any larger impact on the plot. Most decisions result in minor dialogue changes and that's about it. People die during cutscenes, even the main protagonist dies because he's being railroaded to get bitten and those deaths feel all way too "forced" and "cheap", hence why people are "mad" about Lee's fate. Any bigger elements in the plot are copied from the comic books. Salt lick dilemma? It's from the comics, ableit a little bit different, but thematically the same. Starring: Glenn's GF as Larry. Abe as Kenny and Rick Grimes as Lee. Kenny shooting Duck? All been there: The black dude with his zombified son, only that the moron didn't kill Duane but let him free, instead. Crawford or Woodbury? Hunters, Bandits? The only new thing is the cannibal family, but hey. It was kinda obvious and it's not like there are no movies about such things out there. TWDTG's magnificent story isn't that magnificent after all. It only surprises with forced deaths, but those surprises are nothing but annoying, since they feel just beyond lame. This "game" has so much railroading in it that it really makes me wonder why the did chose PC and consoles as a plattform for it. It's more like a movie, or a novel with some characteristics of a video game....
...and it's a shame, since this game could have been so much more, than what it is. If you make a game that is all about the story, then don't be lazy and write a proper one, or it becomes an abomination just like ME3. If you choose to make a video game, then FFS make a video game, not some giant cutscene with a little bit of walking and quick-time-events here and there. If you claim that the story is tailored by my decisions, then FFS why is there only one ending? Why does not a single decision that I made throughout 5 episodes have any impact on the story?
TWDTG isn't a bad game, but GOTY? I don't know. It started extremely promising, but became more and more lame with each episode. It's The Walking Dead the GAME, not The Walking Dead the Rollercoaster Ride.
Fanboys might be blind to criticism, maybe even react hostile towars critics, but that's how it is. This "game" has some flaws and problems. There are some issues with the story and some developer decisions are nothing but bad. Forcing things to happen is never a good way. People want interactivity.
I like how all your points are actually implemented in ME3 and you call that game an abomination.
You really like using loaded terms and, basicly, hyperbole to make your point. But through making it so strong you invalidate it more than validate it. If I can give some advice: step back a bit.. take some time to relax and calm down and then come back to make a calm and collected addition to this discussion. I see some of the points you make, and understand or agree with some, but the method of delivery makes it really hard to take them seriously. Sorry, but you do exactly what you blame "fanboys" of doing.
As I said before: decisions in TWD turned out to not be about what you do, but about how you feel about your decisions. It is less about experiencing if you would survive a Zombie Apocalypse and more about finding out what kind of person you'll become in one.
I love how it isn't such that the entire 'universe' around the main protagonist is defined by his actions and his actions alone. Biggest example of this is the Salt Lick situation. You can pick sides, but it's still going to happen. You are powerless to stop it and therefore how you feel about doing it or not is much more important when it comes to making the decision.
This, I felt, was refreshing. And, for me personally, improved my experience compared to story games with choices as you describe them.
"There is no decision that is clearly better than the other." is one of the first things the developers said about this story. And they kept true to that goal. I applaud them for that.
Really tired of people using the "Telltale fanboys are blind to criticism" excuse. Pertinent, knowledgeable videogame critics have repeatedly given this game the praise it deserves. It won game of the year because people deeply involved with the industry realize that this game will, more than likely, mark a significant change in the way developers structure narrative in their games. It's a big deal. If you want to call me a Telltale fanboy, feel free. I take that as a compliment. What they did with this game was huge and I fully support them.
As far as the neverending "it's not a game" debate, I posted a list of reasons as to why it's a game earlier in this thread. Except for one person, it was completely ignored. Is anyone interested in having an actual discussion about this topic, or are the people stating it's not a game not willing to look at this from another perspective?
Really tired of people using the "Telltale fanboys are blind to criticism" excuse. Pertinent, knowledgeable videogame critics have repeatedly given this game the praise it deserves. It won game of the year because people deeply involved with the industry realize that this game will, more than likely, mark a significant change in the way developers structure narrative in their games. It's a big deal. If you want to call me a Telltale fanboy, feel free. I take that as a compliment. What they did with this game was huge and I fully support them.
As far as the neverending "it's not a game" debate, I posted a list of reasons as to why it's a game earlier in this thread. Except for one person, it was completely ignored. Is anyone interested in having an actual discussion about this topic, or are the people stating it's not a game not willing to look at this from another perspective?
For the record: I agree with all the points you made in this thread so far
Event went back to double check all your comments just to be sure I was
The fact this discussion is happening is exactly why it deserves to be GOTY.
that's a good point, it has been hard for me to understand what this game is and how i would define it to myself or how i would describe it to someone else, that doesn't happen with most games
Hey guys, I'm such a 'gamer' too, i guess (i'm also young, 17 years)
I play lots of games and so i also played TWD a few weeks ago. And i have to say it actually deserves the win. There's nothing that motivates to play the singleplayer of a game to the end more than an epic story.
I think those ppl would change their mind if they gave twd a try.
i hope that in the future more of such extraordinary games will be created. there are enough shooters imho... them not winning goty is a nice start
edit: and yes the game mechanics are quite simple but it's still a game... in my eyes 'games' are interactive entertainment. TWD is both
Seriously. If Halo 4 had won the general reaction would have varied from "cool" to "eh, I guess".
Your probably right that if a big box, Microsoft produced, title won people would be less than surprised. But that's exactly what makes TWD's win such a bold statement. I was a little surprised that halo4's production value didn't get it nominated on it's own.
I think the VGA crew deserves Kudos for creating an award that carries more legitimate weight than it ever has before. For years, the VGA's seemed to only follow the money (EA somehow even got Madden to win GOTY in 2003). Games like Journey and TWD wouldn't have had a prayer to even get a nomination in those days. But perhaps, those days are gone... : )
I think the VGA crew deserves Kudos for creating an award that carries more legitimate weight than it ever has before. For years, the VGA's seemed to only follow the money (EA somehow even got Madden to win GOTY in 2003). Games like Journey and TWD wouldn't have had a prayer to even get a nomination in those days. But perhaps, those days are gone... : )
Agreed. The thing was, back in 2003, it was nearly impossible for a game like TWD or Journey to get noticed. Now with PSN, Xbox Live, Steam and the rise of smaller, more independent publishers, smaller games can find an audience easier. It's nice.
Agreed. The thing was, back in 2003, it was nearly impossible for a game like TWD or Journey to get noticed. Now with PSN, Xbox Live, Steam and the rise of smaller, more independent publishers, smaller games can find an audience easier. It's nice.
Totally, it's nice for gamers and developers alike. Still, that being said, in 2003 Madden somehow beat Zelda: Wind Waker for the GOTY. Small studios aside, I feel like the VGA's were once must less credible than they are today. No offense to any Madden lovers out there...
Comments
that is what makes them easy and what makes you feel clever
why dont you first list some hard puzzles then i can tell you why they are easy :rolleyes:
Getting the root in Monkey Island, using the blackmail tape in Phoenix Wright(a game that actually has real "dialogue puzzles"), stopping Myra's hypnosis in Situation:Comedy, getting Coach Z to punch Bubs in Baddest of the Bands(not that hard, but quite relevant to the kind of puzzle I'm talking about), and getting rid of the Mariachis in Chariots of the Dogs?
That and they don't really understand things.
Despite it's rather glaring flaws, no game has ever really been like The Walking Dead.
Oh sure, there have been other puzzle/adventure games.
But this is a blend of concept/story and franchise leading to a rather powerful narrative.
In effect, it's innovative.
i have never played Phoenix Wright, but you are basically saying that needing to use lots of items is what you like and consider hard (monkey island), also i thought you were saying that new adventure games were easy (including the newer sam and max games), but you were more specifically talking about Jurassic park and TWD that have very few items to use, i would say they are more a sub-genre of adventure games.
i haven't got a great memory but when you said hard puzzles the main thing that came to mind for me was in discworld 2 where you had to use timing to pickpocket the barber (the only timing based puzzle with nothing to tell you to use timing, where use everything on everything doesn't solve that
so actually i agree more with you than i thought, i just thought you were putting the older Lucasarts type games in a magic bubble that could never be matched, and just saying all new games were easy
No, what I'm trying to say is that the degree of gameplay-based difficulty in TTG's games are declining rapidly. Even TDP had a bit of a different "feel" to it, but it wasn't really a bad thing at the time because nothing much came of it. Then, their very next game was BTTF, a much easier game that even included a few QTEs if I remember correctly. Then JP, L&O, and TWD came out one after the other, seemingly cementing TTG's new direction of story-over-gameplay.
(Hector doesn't really count even though I want it to, as it was made by Strandlooper and published by TTG.)
The thing besides the classic licenses that makes this troubling, though, is the fact that TTG is THE big adventure game company, and the only one many people know. Wadjet Eye and Daedaelic are still making the old style of games, but who the hell knows who they are? And with TWD still being called an "adventure game" no matter what, how long until that's the common definition?
hopefully there is room for both "point and click adventure games" and "story driven adventure games" no matter how great i think TWD is i don't think "monkey island the drama" would work
Disney owns Monkey Island now, so the closest we'll probably get is Monkey Island the Platformer or something.
Well, unless this happens, which might be unlikely.
eww monkey island the platformer :eek: on second thoughts monkey island the drama could work
I agree with the quote "it's not even a game". The Walking Dead the Game really isn't a game. It's a giant rollercoaster ride, a huge cutscene that is occasionally interrupted by quick-time-events, movement and dialogue. Everything is scripted, there is not a single decision that has any larger impact on the plot. Most decisions result in minor dialogue changes and that's about it. People die during cutscenes, even the main protagonist dies because he's being railroaded to get bitten and those deaths feel all way too "forced" and "cheap", hence why people are "mad" about Lee's fate. Any bigger elements in the plot are copied from the comic books. Salt lick dilemma? It's from the comics, ableit a little bit different, but thematically the same. Starring: Glenn's GF as Larry. Abe as Kenny and Rick Grimes as Lee. Kenny shooting Duck? All been there: The black dude with his zombified son, only that the moron didn't kill Duane but let him free, instead. Crawford or Woodbury? Hunters, Bandits? The only new thing is the cannibal family, but hey. It was kinda obvious and it's not like there are no movies about such things out there. TWDTG's magnificent story isn't that magnificent after all. It only surprises with forced deaths, but those surprises are nothing but annoying, since they feel just beyond lame. This "game" has so much railroading in it that it really makes me wonder why the did chose PC and consoles as a plattform for it. It's more like a movie, or a novel with some characteristics of a video game....
...and it's a shame, since this game could have been so much more, than what it is. If you make a game that is all about the story, then don't be lazy and write a proper one, or it becomes an abomination just like ME3. If you choose to make a video game, then FFS make a video game, not some giant cutscene with a little bit of walking and quick-time-events here and there. If you claim that the story is tailored by my decisions, then FFS why is there only one ending? Why does not a single decision that I made throughout 5 episodes have any impact on the story?
TWDTG isn't a bad game, but GOTY? I don't know. It started extremely promising, but became more and more lame with each episode. It's The Walking Dead the GAME, not The Walking Dead the Rollercoaster Ride.
Fanboys might be blind to criticism, maybe even react hostile towars critics, but that's how it is. This "game" has some flaws and problems. There are some issues with the story and some developer decisions are nothing but bad. Forcing things to happen is never a good way. People want interactivity.
The Walking Dead is Game of the Year because the "Fanboys" said so.
Don't like it, go play something else and quit wasting time being so negative over a game.
I like how all your points are actually implemented in ME3 and you call that game an abomination.
You really like using loaded terms and, basicly, hyperbole to make your point. But through making it so strong you invalidate it more than validate it. If I can give some advice: step back a bit.. take some time to relax and calm down and then come back to make a calm and collected addition to this discussion. I see some of the points you make, and understand or agree with some, but the method of delivery makes it really hard to take them seriously. Sorry, but you do exactly what you blame "fanboys" of doing.
As I said before: decisions in TWD turned out to not be about what you do, but about how you feel about your decisions. It is less about experiencing if you would survive a Zombie Apocalypse and more about finding out what kind of person you'll become in one.
I love how it isn't such that the entire 'universe' around the main protagonist is defined by his actions and his actions alone. Biggest example of this is the Salt Lick situation. You can pick sides, but it's still going to happen. You are powerless to stop it and therefore how you feel about doing it or not is much more important when it comes to making the decision.
This, I felt, was refreshing. And, for me personally, improved my experience compared to story games with choices as you describe them.
"There is no decision that is clearly better than the other." is one of the first things the developers said about this story. And they kept true to that goal. I applaud them for that.
As far as the neverending "it's not a game" debate, I posted a list of reasons as to why it's a game earlier in this thread. Except for one person, it was completely ignored. Is anyone interested in having an actual discussion about this topic, or are the people stating it's not a game not willing to look at this from another perspective?
For the record: I agree with all the points you made in this thread so far
Event went back to double check all your comments just to be sure I was
The fact this discussion is happening is exactly why it deserves to be GOTY.
that's a good point, it has been hard for me to understand what this game is and how i would define it to myself or how i would describe it to someone else, that doesn't happen with most games
I play lots of games and so i also played TWD a few weeks ago. And i have to say it actually deserves the win. There's nothing that motivates to play the singleplayer of a game to the end more than an epic story.
I think those ppl would change their mind if they gave twd a try.
i hope that in the future more of such extraordinary games will be created. there are enough shooters imho... them not winning goty is a nice start
edit: and yes the game mechanics are quite simple but it's still a game... in my eyes 'games' are interactive entertainment. TWD is both
Seriously. If Halo 4 had won the general reaction would have varied from "cool" to "eh, I guess".
Your probably right that if a big box, Microsoft produced, title won people would be less than surprised. But that's exactly what makes TWD's win such a bold statement. I was a little surprised that halo4's production value didn't get it nominated on it's own.
I think the VGA crew deserves Kudos for creating an award that carries more legitimate weight than it ever has before. For years, the VGA's seemed to only follow the money (EA somehow even got Madden to win GOTY in 2003). Games like Journey and TWD wouldn't have had a prayer to even get a nomination in those days. But perhaps, those days are gone... : )
So, just like every other day?
Agreed. The thing was, back in 2003, it was nearly impossible for a game like TWD or Journey to get noticed. Now with PSN, Xbox Live, Steam and the rise of smaller, more independent publishers, smaller games can find an audience easier. It's nice.
Totally, it's nice for gamers and developers alike. Still, that being said, in 2003 Madden somehow beat Zelda: Wind Waker for the GOTY. Small studios aside, I feel like the VGA's were once must less credible than they are today. No offense to any Madden lovers out there...