Wow. Ben was only mentioned a couple times and only three people put him as their 'most hated' character. Which makes me all kinds of happy, seeing as I like Ben.
OT: At certain times I might have hated one character or another, even Ben when he left Clem, but at the end of season I couldn't find it in me to truly hate any of them. They all had their flaws and virtues.
Yeah, pretty much the whole cast was well written enough where I found it hard to actually hate any one character. Or in Larry's case it was harder to hate him simply because so many of his lines are fucking hilarious.
In Ben's case I could never really stay angry at him because I basically viewed him as another kid, same as Duck and Clem. Yeah he's a teenager, but in most ways you're still just a kid at that age. Couple that with the fact he's a band geek and I wouldn't be surprised if he lived at least a semi-sheltered life before the shit hit the fan.
It's most obvious when Chuck is around. He says there are three adults looking out for three kids. If you pick silence as a response Chuck goes on to tell Ben how hard it must be for him being just a boy an all (which Ben meekly denies). Ben also complains about not getting to work on a "super cool train" and there's that scene of him eating the candy Chuck gave him.
He may be tall but in the grand scheme of things he's just a boy. He rarely even swears (and when he does it's usually a big deal). And he's alone in a group of people who probably don't care about him (except Clem and possibly Lee if the player likes him).
I always looked at him as another child who needed protection like Clementine. When he and Clementine got cornered in Episode 4 I saw them both as panicking kids in desperate need of help. In fact Ben's deal with the bandits, the one that causes so much trouble, really isn't that different from Clementine's own dealings with a devil (which also causes a lot of trouble).
Both Clementine and Ben go behind the group's back to talk to someone outside the group (Stranger/Bandits) because they say they have their loved ones (Clem's Parents/Ben's Classmate) and because they naively believe them (Clem runs off with the Stranger after Lee says they can't look for her parents/Ben starts slipping the Bandits meds) they end up putting the whole group in danger with their actions (Having to navigate a swarmed Savannah/Bandits attack).
Although Ben is still a pretty a colossal fuck up. I mean he unbars an obviously blocked door, as opposed to Clementine who helps you bar a door that's about to break. Still, Clem has Lee to look out for her, Ben's really got nobody. Some kind of fatherly figure probably would have done Ben a lot of good.
When I was teaching Clementine how to shoot I was wishing I'd could actually bring Ben in next and give him some basic survival pointers. I actually suspected Kenny may have been willing to fill that role after Ben finally told him off, you know, if it weren't for that stupid balcony.
Wow, great analysis Jaded X Gamer. Your post totally put into words the reasons I began suspecting Lilly as really only out for her father.
I'm glad you liked it. Here's a bonus one. Vernon taking the boat was probably an impulse decision, not some cold calculated master plan like some have suggested.
When everyone's escaping the Crawford bell tower, he asks about the group coming by train only to immediately drop the subject. I'm guessing he saw the massive herd of walkers that were coming on the rails and realized that his group wouldn't be safe even in the sewers anymore because the whole city would be completely overrun. (Which we see happen in Episode 5.)
He probably knew Kenny or most of you're group wouldn't agree to let them on the boat and you don't have to be a fisherman to know that one speedboat probably can't carry ten people so he probably figured his people's best chance was just to take it for themselves.
Imagine if he was actually honest with you and told Lee's group that he saw the approaching herd and he wanted his people to come along on the boat? How would you decide something like that when only five people could go? How would you talk Kenny into it for that matter? It was still a shitty thing to do, but I really think Vernon acted more out of desperation than outright malice or simple greed.
I think this is why Vernon suddenly suggests giving up Clementine to him too. Probably between escaping from Crawford and returning to the manor he had made up his my mind about taking the boat but likely still felt at least a tinge of guilt about abandoning an adorable nine year old girl to die. If Lee agreed Vernon probably planned to take Clementine with them after they take the boat.
in ben's case i could never really stay angry at him because i basically viewed him as another kid, same as duck and clem. Yeah he's a teenager, but in most ways you're still just a kid at that age. Couple that with the fact he's a band geek and i wouldn't be surprised if he lived at least a semi-sheltered life before the shit hit the fan.
It's most obvious when chuck is around. He says there are three adults looking out for three kids. If you pick silence as a response chuck goes on to tell ben how hard it must be for him being just a boy an all (which ben meekly denies). Ben also complains about not getting to work on a "super cool train" and there's that scene of him eating the candy chuck gave him.
he may be tall but in the grand scheme of things he's just a boy. He rarely even swears (and when he does it's usually a big deal). And he's alone in a group of people who probably don't care about him (except clem and possibly lee if the player likes him).
I always looked at him as another child who needed protection like clementine. When he and clementine got cornered in episode 4 i saw them both as panicking kids in desperate need of help. In fact ben's deal with the bandits, the one that causes so much trouble, really isn't that different from clementine's own dealings with a devil (which also causes a lot of trouble).
Both clementine and ben go behind the group's back to talk to someone outside the group (stranger/bandits) because they say they have their loved ones (clem's parents/ben's classmate) and because they naively believe them (clem runs off with the stranger after lee says they can't look for her parents/ben starts slipping the bandits meds) they end up putting the whole group in danger with their actions (having to navigate a swarmed savannah/bandits attack).
Although ben is still a pretty a colossal fuck up. I mean he unbars an obviously blocked door, as opposed to clementine who helps you bar a door that's about to break. Still, clem has lee to look out for her, ben's really got nobody. Some kind of fatherly figure probably would have done ben a lot of good.
When i was teaching clementine how to shoot i was wishing i'd could actually bring ben in next and give him some basic survival pointers. I actually suspected kenny may have been willing to fill that role after ben finally told him off, you know, if it weren't for that stupid balcony.
Lilly I view as being a tragic character. She isn't a bad person, she just became completely unhinged by Larry's death. I was angry when she killed Carley, and she got left on the side of the road, but I never hated the character.
Yeah, everything I don't like about Lilly traces back to Larry. He's the one who raised her. She's responsible for her actions, but if he'd been more laid back/less apoplectic than he was, he probably wouldn't have triggered his heart condition at the worst possible time. Then maybe she wouldn't have gone off the deep end like she did.
Yeah, I blame Larry for Lilly. She cracked, she went paranoid, she had a moment of temporary insanity. I don't think it would've happened if she had a calm and rational father to keep her grounded.
@Jaded X Gamer: I 100% agree with what you said about Ben, but Vernon's act was stealing the group's only hope to save his group of old and sick people, while our group was healthy and had 2 kids. It may not have been calculated, but it was extremely selfish.
Lilly- i didn't like her attitude/how she handle things + she's a killer for god's sake. But ofc, she was trying to do what she could.
Larry- idk, what's his problem anyway? Just cus im a convict he treats me like im some kind of crazy dick. But I find him funny sometimes, when he swears- (like when he says: Stupid sh*ts/when we were in the meat locker he goes: Stupid sons of b*tches.)
Looks like most people hate the father/daughter duo.
Ben is also indirectly responsible for the death of Chuck, who gets killed rescuing Clem after Ben abandoned her.
A good leader doesn't shoot someone based on paranoid delusions, particularly when that someone also happens to be one of the group's most loyal and combat-effective members.
Lilly murdered a completely innocent person in cold blood, and further endangered the group both by robbing it one of its best fighters (Carley) and by guaranteeing Lilly's own exile from it. A good leader would know there would be no coming back from murdering Carley, and that it would fracture the group. A good leader would also know that the best time to deal with the traitor situation, was after everyone had some rest and a chance to clear their heads. It was a decision that had to be made with logic, not emotion.
I'm not someone who hates Lilly. I think she is a sad, tragic character...I'd love to see her return in the sequel and somehow redeem herself. But as a leader, she is completely inept, particularly after Larry's death. By act three Lilly was uninhinged, and not capable of leading anything.
Yeah it sucks.. She was such a great leader before the Larry incident.. And I definitely agree with you. Her heart was in the right place, but she just didn't make the right call that time. And I still think she's a better leader than Kenny.
I think Lee/Carley or both of them would make good leaders. Carley is right about Lee when she says that people look up to him. Another is that Lee cares about everyone and uses logic, not emotion. Carley is a smart person who could help Lee out. (Like her sudden realization that Lee should tell the group about his past, it was pretty much for the best)
Kenny is fine but if he was in his right mind like in the drug store I'd think he would do fine.
Carley has a leader? No way, she should learn to me more diplomatic. Calling a paranoid and armed girl "bitch" ain't a good plan.
Hmm, Carley as a leader? I don't like that idea much, even as a Carley fan (for the most part). I think she's too caring to handle a lot of the decisions a leader would have to make. She'd be a great second in command, but I think she'd lead the group to their demise because she wanted to help someone and not realize how much of a danger she might be putting themselves in.
Oh, and uh, I already answered the question that is the point of the thread on the previous page, so I'm not really sure what else to say to make this on topic. Oh well.
I was forced into either pitying not trusting or hating pretty much everyone
I'm very annoyed with Vernon because I thought he was a nice guy and betrayed us
I can't think of someone I hate the most but Vernon was the biggest disappointment as everyone else I kind of expected them to go crazy, be selfish, be useless, be treacherous, be too brave or death prone whilst he was a Doctor and quite nice.
(Also I name a soldier in X-com after him and he ended up being a Colonel Psi powered assault as well as the chosen one before I found out about his betrayal)
A lot of people, in my experience, say Ben. I disagree. Ben is a good kid, (he is still just a kid), he just wants to make sure everything is alright. Although his choices may not have been the best, his intentions were gold. What if he declined the bandits offer? They would have come and attacked anyways. It could of ended better, but it also could of ended worse. He IS still just a scared little kid. It must not be easy having no one; having everyone against you for doing bad when you meant the best. So for that particular reason, he is probably my favorite, right next to Carley.
The most hated would have to be, hands down, Lilly. I understand that Lilly was just looking out for her Dad and herself, she needs to understand things and not to be such a stubborn psychopath, especially in times like an apocalypse where you need to work together and rely on total strangers. You CANNOT just shoot someone because of something you don't even know. Especially to a survivor who has never done ANYTHING to hurt the group, a good shot, and trustworthy all along. Lilly was just mad because what Carley said applied to her, and she knew it. She needed to realize that everyone in the group has someone to look out for. I sided with Kenny the whole game, because that "trustworthy" Lilly would have left the group to be eaten alive by walkers in the RV, and have shot one of the group members in the face, so either way, she screwed the group over. She turned out to be a hypocrite, and I hate her for that.
Larry was just a dusty old fart and he got what was coming to him. At first I really did sympathize for Lilly about her dad, since she was so emotional over it. She had just lost everything. But then I realized, the group was better off without him. He blackmailed Lee with stories from his past, and left him for dead. If he wasn't such an asshole by getting all worked up over nothing and didn't need his nitro glycerin pills back in episode one, they could have gotten out safely with Doug AND Carley. Lee wouldn't have to kill his brother. Things didn't have to end the way they did, but they did because of him. He doesn't even feel shame. I'm surprised that everyone didn't let him die.
Hmm, Carley as a leader? I don't like that idea much, even as a Carley fan (for the most part). I think she's too caring to handle a lot of the decisions a leader would have to make. She'd be a great second in command, but I think she'd lead the group to their demise because she wanted to help someone and not realize how much of a danger she might be putting themselves in.
Carley fan here! I think she isn't that caring. Remember, she wanted to ditch that woman in the motel. If it wasn't for Glenn and Lee, she should have left. Sure, the woman was a loss cause, but they didn't know that.
Larry is definitely my most hated character, followed by Lily. I wanted to hate Ben, but can't. I don't know, maybe because he's kid or seems so pathetic that I can't help but feel sorry for him. He kept wanting to prove himself, but somehow, he always failed. The kid is really unlucky.
I never liked Carley or Duck too much.
I preferred Doug and Shawn. I would have liked to have been able to save Doug and Shawn without them dying anyway.
i don't hate any of them, since everyone is (quite) reasonable, Larry only wanted to protect his daughter even though he was trying to kill us...
the guy on the radio is reasonable too, you messed with him, and that got his family killed, so he messes with YOUR family and that would be clem... unfortunately, i would hate him if he had gotten Clem killed though.
i can't hate Ben because... seriously he IS trying to do his best and on the streets in ep4 he was scared, i mean i didn't forgive him for the most mistakes but, i kinda understand him. he fucks up over and over again, tries harder and fucks up way harder.
Gotta go with Larry. Lilly may have gone overboard with things, but she at least shows appreciation when you support her actions. Larry? Nothing you do has any effect on how he treats you. After everything you went through to save his life at the pharmacy, first thing he does is try to kill you. Sorry, but he made the meat locker choice very easy for me. Your head is jell-o, old man.
I never liked Carley or Duck too much.
I preferred Doug and Shawn. I would have liked to have been able to save Doug and Shawn without them dying anyway.
Yeah, there should've been multiple endings where the ones you tried to save survived.
I liked Shawn but Kenny ended up disliking me =.=
I have a few people I disliked- i will say these by episode:
Episode 1:
1) Hershal- yeah he can be all grumpy and old and shit, but stop being a douche- i know you lose your son, but no need to be all suspicious of me
2) Larry- i dont like assholes- especially yelling assholes who jump to conclusions and dont actually think about the consequences to their decisions
-he punches Lee after Lee KILLS HIS BROTHER (zombie or not) to get the keys for that asshat.
-hes constantly grumpy, and while his lines are kinda funny, hes a jerk to everyone even his own daughter
3) Lilly- shes all kinds of bitchy and not very nice when she loses control of the group
Episode 2
Larry- again, total douche
The Bandits- ALL of them
The St. Johns- Especially the creepy younger brother who im guessing would have kissed his gun had Lee not been standing there looking at him like the gun molester that he was
Kenny- for making me kill Larry
Lily- for making me kill Larry
Episode 3
Lily- shes unhinged, selfish, stupid and irrational. Plus, even though she was right about the "count being off" with the supplies, she shoots Carly so that she can be the dominant female. And im guessing she had a crush on Lee, and might have been pissed that Lee liked Carly over her.
the bandits- causes people to get killed or bitten by walkers. Though I enjoyed the Bandits being killed by the walkers.
Ben- for not being smart enough to tell people what he was doing and for getting people killed.
Episode 4
Christa- why do you have to be so bitchy about the radio? Like I was going to take that thing away from my girl?
I wouldn't hate Vernon if he wasn't such a dick, pulling a gun on me when he first sees me, talking like I'm not a good parent for Clem and stealing the boat. That's why I hate Vernon.
It's hard to pick just one person. Ben, Larry, the St. Johns, Radioguy.
I think I would have to say Larry though. Although I really hate Ben, I don't think he ever did anything with malicious intent. But Larry is the biggest asshole because despite who Lee was, there was no reason to bring up his past ESPECIALLY when he just proved that he would be a team player when he went through all that trouble (including killing his own brother!) to get Larry his medicine. Larry also causes the most conflict and the biggest divide between Kenny and Lilly. After we nearly die trying to leave the pharmacy, he has the nerve to punch us in the face. If I were given the option I would have killed him in a covert way. He was a big guy, taking up resources like food and medicine while being nothing but a complainer and dividing the group. The St. Johns are despicable but I still think our group was kind of naive to trust them so blindly. And Radioguy just went crazy.
Not too different from the majority, as far as I can tell.
Campman, for being an idiot, a hypocrite and for ultimately screwing everyone over because of his own idiocy. I mean, I know he's kind of mentally unstable by the point we actually get to talk to him, so his motives and reasoning was probably a bit skewed, but I have no sympathy for him - everything that's happened to him started with him losing his own son, and he accuses Lee of being callous and an inadequate guardian for Clementine? Are you serious? And then he's stupid enough to leave his car in the middle of a clearing, keys in ignition and everything, and expect everything to be intact when he comes back. Hell, nevermind being in a ZA, even in our own zombie-free world, no one would be stupid enough to do that. You leave your car like that, you are asking to be robbed. If I were his wife, I'd leave him too, for being such a useless jerk.
But yeah, as I said, he's gone crazy at this point, so it was probably just easier for him to blame Lee and his group for everything that happened than admit that he's an idiot that inadvertently let his whole family die.
And then there's the former resident asshole, Larry. Self explanatory choice, I think. I've tried to see things from his point of view and all, but he was just too violent and too much of a bully for me to like him at all. As someone said, he was pretty much designed to be hated, and I did hate him. I think the only point in his favor was that he loved and cared about his daughter, but honestly, who doesn't have someone they love and care about? Doesn't justify his actions or behavior.
I used to hate Lilly, but I've noticed both she and Kenny's attitude is quite different depending on certain interactions and who you side with more, so during my first playthrough, when I sided with Kenny near 100%, I really hated her. Second time, I tried to take her side at times and feed Larry and stuff, and I suddenly didn't hate her as much. I know she still takes off with the RV no matter what, which is why I still don't particularly like her, but I guess it's sort of justifiable considering the whole "Kenny murdered her dad brutally right in front of her face" thing.
I think that's all, the major ones that stick out for me anyway. I never hated Ben, despite the fact he's also a miserable idiot that screws people over repeatedly. Maybe because I get the feeling that if I were ever in a ZA, I'd be that raging idiot who contributes nothing to the group and screws up all the time. Soo, I kinda sympathize, and I can't bring myself to hate him. People like us mean well, we're just massively uncoordinated and can't get our shit together.
And that part ^ doesn't contradict what I said about Campman - what I hated most about him is that he blames Lee and everyone else for the most part. At least Ben knows he's a fuckup, and wants to make amends for what he's done instead of assigning blame. As far as I can remember, anyway.
Edit: And just read Jaded X Gamer's post about Lilly, which reminded me of a few more reasons why I didn't like her.
Also, the lottery is a terrible way to determine who gets to eat. If it was really impossible to divide the food evenly every day and only four people would eat daily, then why didn't they simply make up a schedule and take turns? That would ensure there was no favoritism going on, reduce the number of arguments and skepticism within the group and everyone would have the same chance to eat. Why would you even leave something like that to chance? It's entirely possible for someone to just have horrid luck and not eat for days because of this, not to mention extremely easy to rig, as I'm assuming she's not holding a lottery drawing show and pulling names out of a hat for everyone to see when she distributes rations.
As far as I'm concerned, they were the only people who truly deserved to die in the entire game.
They were evil, sick, twisted cannibals that deserved nothing more than to eaten alive, just like they did to all those people they killed.
After all, they killed Mark and were going to kill the entire group, unless someone stopped them.
I wouldn't be surprised if they killed and ate their own father, too, just because the hunger got to them.
Also, the lottery is a terrible way to determine who gets to eat. If it was really impossible to divide the food evenly every day and only four people would eat daily, then why didn't they simply make up a schedule and take turns? That would ensure there was no favoritism going on, reduce the number of arguments and skepticism within the group and everyone would have the same chance to eat. Why would you even leave something like that to chance? It's entirely possible for someone to just have horrid luck and not eat for days because of this, not to mention extremely easy to rig, as I'm assuming she's not holding a lottery drawing show and pulling names out of a hat for everyone to see when she distributes rations.
And she fucking complains about how hard it is! You're letting chance decides who eats but then you go whine about what a hard job you got? Fuck you Lilly. Maybe people hate you because you suck at your job. I didn't even think about her rigging a lottery. If you tell Mark that Larry thinks you're dangerous, he says he wouldn't be surprised if Lilly was skimming food to give to Larry. (And he would know, the man is a huge gossip.) Maybe the lottery was how she was doing it.
My experience with Lilly was the opposite of yours. On my first playthrough I was pretty sympathetic towards her, even though I didn't always agree with her. Kenny's reaction to me not helping him kill Larry really put me off him for a while. I (just barely) let her back in the R.V. after what she did, reasoning Lee got a second chance, maybe she deserved one. And in the ends she steals the R.V. and strands six people to die. (Like she knew or cared if the train worked.) Not even looking the least bit sorry as she did so.
On subsequent playthroughs I've just found myself hating her more and more and at this point I'd say she's the character I hate most (barring outright villains like the St. Johns). Even though I said I pitied her in my last post in this thread, playing the game again has mostly eroded that and I really just think she was a shitty person at heart. Yeah her father is a useless asshole and his shitty parenting is probably responsible for a lot of Lilly's problems, but she's a fucking grown woman and she keeps insisting she's the damn leader. Well fucking lead already!
Being leader means taking responsibility, as in something goes wrong you're responsible. Lilly never takes responsibility for anything. From her father treating everyone like shit ("It's just his way!"), to running out of food ("Suddenly I'm a god damn nazi!"), to having no fucking plans on how to deal with bandits or dwindling supplies ("I just want a week where I don't have to deal with this!") Step up or step aside. It really shows she was just a paper pusher at the Airforce, she governs like an incompetent bureaucrat.
She's not even sorry for shooting Carley or Doug. Either Carley wasn't trustworthy (She was!) or it wasn't supposed to be Doug (Sorry he interrupted your surprise execution!) Either way she doesn’t really care. She only regrets it because it caused the whole group to turn on her, which she of course complains about ("I'm tied up like animal!") and then strands everyone because she knows they won't help her anymore.
Carley was right to called her a scared little girl. If anything she was being too nice, I’d call Lilly a dirty coward. She wants to be in charge so she can justify sending people out to do the dangerous work while she sits around somewhere safe. It’s probably why she’s so against leaving the Motor Inn or the Pharmacy initially, she might actually have to put herself at risk. Also probably why Ben is on watch in Episode 3, there’s actually people shooting back now. The only real time she attacks anyone is when their back is turned or she’s far enough away to not suffer a counter attack.
Maybe if she had any backbone she could have worked up the nerve to tell her asshole father to sit down and shut up in the meat locker before he gave himself another heart attack, like he had already did once before. Instead she just keeps meekly pleading with him in her most pathetic voice. Gotta love the one time she doesn’t switch to mega bitch mode is the one time it may have actually helped.
Anyways, enough about Lilly. I actually did feel sorry for the Stranger. Maybe because I was pretty much certain he was coming back for his station wagon. I mean the keys are in the ignition and the lights are still on, which means it couldn’t have been there for more than one night since that would run the batteries down. And the gas gauge is empty, they were out looking for gas probably.
He reminded me a lot of Jolene (whom I also felt bad for). Someone who was probably just a regular person before everything went bad and lost their fucking mind when all their loved ones died since it left them completely alone. I felt it really demonstrated just what such a horrible world would do to regular people, and how desperate it would make them.
You’re right about the Stranger being a hypocrite though. His whole rant against Lee is just him projecting his own failures onto Lee. Trying to rationalize his family’s deaths as someone else’s fault since he won’t accept responsibility for it, as if Lee and his group would be the only people who would ever wrong him. Grasping at straws to try and make Lee unsuitable so he can feel justified in lying to Clementine and kidnapping her.
And yet I still felt incredibly sorry for him. Maybe because I’m a bleeding heart pansy so I keep sympathizing with him during the conversation and by the end he didn’t even sound mad anymore. He actually seemed to feel bad for Lee for a moment when I told him I was bitten. Then he started talking to his bowling bag and it was kinda obvious he was too far gone to help.
When he died I looked at his corpse for a short moment and whispered “I’m sorry”. Sorry we didn’t wait for him to come back to his car, maybe invite his family to come back to Motor Inn. Sorry he was just another person whom I couldn’t save. Sorry that we had to kill him since I couldn’t convince him to let go of his own bitter revenge. If felt tragic just because if one little thing had gone differently, he could have been another family living with our group, just trying to survive.
As for Ben, I’m pretty much on the same page as you. Could never really be angry with. He’s well meaning fuck-up, which I felt was probably a realistic depiction of a teenage band geek trapped in zombie apocalypse. Scared and clueless to what he should do. Like I said, he really needed a parental figure to guide him. Clementine had Lee to protect her and teach her, Ben was pretty much left to fend for himself.
And she fucking complains about how hard it is! You're letting chance decides who eats but then you go whine about what a hard job you got? Fuck you Lilly. Maybe people hate you because you suck at your job. I didn't even think about her rigging a lottery. If you tell Mark that Larry thinks you're dangerous, he says he wouldn't be surprised if Lilly was skimming food to give to Larry. (And he would know, the man is a huge gossip.) Maybe the lottery was how she was doing it.
My experience with Lilly was the opposite of yours. On my first playthrough I was pretty sympathetic towards her, even though I didn't always agree with her. Kenny's reaction to me not helping him kill Larry really put me off him for a while. I (just barely) let her back in the R.V. after what she did, reasoning Lee got a second chance, maybe she deserved one. And in the ends she steals the R.V. and strands six people to die. (Like she knew or cared if the train worked.) Not even looking the least bit sorry as she did so.
On subsequent playthroughs I've just found myself hating her more and more and at this point I'd say she's the character I hate most (barring outright villains like the St. Johns). Even though I said I pitied her in my last post in this thread, playing the game again has mostly eroded that and I really just think she was a shitty person at heart. Yeah her father is a useless asshole and his shitty parenting is probably responsible for a lot of Lilly's problems, but she's a fucking grown woman and she keeps insisting she's the damn leader. Well fucking lead already!
Being leader means taking responsibility, as in something goes wrong you're responsible. Lilly never takes responsibility for anything. From her father treating everyone like shit ("It's just his way!"), to running out of food ("Suddenly I'm a god damn nazi!"), to having no fucking plans on how to deal with bandits or dwindling supplies ("I just want a week where I don't have to deal with this!") Step up or step aside. It really shows she was just a paper pusher at the Airforce, she governs like an incompetent bureaucrat.
She's not even sorry for shooting Carley or Doug. Either Carley wasn't trustworthy (She was!) or it wasn't supposed to be Doug (Sorry he interrupted your surprise execution!) Either way she doesn’t really care. She only regrets it because it caused the whole group to turn on her, which she of course complains about ("I'm tied up like animal!") and then strands everyone because she knows they won't help her anymore.
Carley was right to called her a scared little girl. If anything she was being too nice, I’d call Lilly a dirty coward. She wants to be in charge so she can justify sending people out to do the dangerous work while she sits around somewhere safe. It’s probably why she’s so against leaving the Motor Inn or the Pharmacy initially, she might actually have to put herself at risk. Also probably why Ben is on watch in Episode 3, there’s actually people shooting back now. The only real time she attacks anyone is when their back is turned or she’s far enough away to not suffer a counter attack.
Maybe if she had any backbone she could have worked up the nerve to tell her asshole father to sit down and shut up in the meat locker before he gave himself another heart attack, like he had already did once before. Instead she just keeps meekly pleading with him in her most pathetic voice. Gotta love the one time she doesn’t switch to mega bitch mode is the one time it may have actually helped.
Anyways, enough about Lilly. I actually did feel sorry for the Stranger. Maybe because I was pretty much certain he was coming back for his station wagon. I mean the keys are in the ignition and the lights are still on, which means it couldn’t have been there for more than one night since that would run the batteries down. And the gas gauge is empty, they were out looking for gas probably.
He reminded me a lot of Jolene (whom I also felt bad for). Someone who was probably just a regular person before everything went bad and lost their fucking mind when all their loved ones died since it left them completely alone. I felt it really demonstrated just what such a horrible world would do to regular people, and how desperate it would make them.
You’re right about the Stranger being a hypocrite though. His whole rant against Lee is is just him projecting his own failures onto Lee. Trying to rationalize his family’s deaths as someone else’s fault since he won’t accept responsibility for it, as if Lee and his group would be the only people who would ever wrong him. Grasping at straws to try and make Lee unsuitable so he can feel justified into lying to Clementine and kidnapping her.
And yet I still felt incredibly sorry for him. Maybe because I’m a bleeding heart pansy so I keep sympathizing with him during the conversation and by the end he didn’t even sound mad anymore. He actually seemed to feel bad for Lee for a moment when I told him I was bitten. Then he started talking to his bowling bag and it was kinda obvious he was too far gone to help.
When he died I looked at his corpse for a short moment and whispered “I’m sorry”. Sorry we didn’t wait for him to come back to his car, maybe invite his family to come back to Motor Inn. Sorry he was just another person whom I couldn’t save. Sorry that we had to kill him since I couldn’t convince him to let go of his own bitter revenge. If felt tragic just because if one little thing had gone differently, he could have been another family living with our group, just trying to survive.
As for Ben, I’m pretty much on the same page as you. Could never really be angry with. He’s well meaning fuck-up, which I felt was probably a realistic depiction of a teenage band geek trapped in zombie apocalypse. Scared and clueless to what he should do. Like I said, he really needed a parental figure to guide him. Clementine had Lee to protect her and teach, Ben was pretty much left to fend for himself.
Whow. Sir, I understand all of your points. Especially these regarding Lilly, but somehow I just can't hate her. I just wanna be with her and hug her, having her in my group all the time, but not as Leader anymore.
I don't really hate anyone of dem characters, I never could. I was glad, they are where they. I think, the most I despise Kenny. He is just there for you, If you have been there for him, but one time you don't kill for him, he thinks really bad of you and does not even try to help you.
Jaded X Gamer I agree almost completely. Every time I play the game I lose more and more respect for Lilly. Just recently I found this little quote made by Lilly:
"Then what do we not forgive?! Honestly! Tell me!"
She then MURDERS Carley in cold blood and mopes how we treated her like an "animal." It seriously infuriated me. There is some stuff I love about Lilly, other stuff I hate. The more I think about it, there's more and more stuff that I hate about her.
Comments
Yeah, pretty much the whole cast was well written enough where I found it hard to actually hate any one character. Or in Larry's case it was harder to hate him simply because so many of his lines are fucking hilarious.
In Ben's case I could never really stay angry at him because I basically viewed him as another kid, same as Duck and Clem. Yeah he's a teenager, but in most ways you're still just a kid at that age. Couple that with the fact he's a band geek and I wouldn't be surprised if he lived at least a semi-sheltered life before the shit hit the fan.
It's most obvious when Chuck is around. He says there are three adults looking out for three kids. If you pick silence as a response Chuck goes on to tell Ben how hard it must be for him being just a boy an all (which Ben meekly denies). Ben also complains about not getting to work on a "super cool train" and there's that scene of him eating the candy Chuck gave him.
He may be tall but in the grand scheme of things he's just a boy. He rarely even swears (and when he does it's usually a big deal). And he's alone in a group of people who probably don't care about him (except Clem and possibly Lee if the player likes him).
I always looked at him as another child who needed protection like Clementine. When he and Clementine got cornered in Episode 4 I saw them both as panicking kids in desperate need of help. In fact Ben's deal with the bandits, the one that causes so much trouble, really isn't that different from Clementine's own dealings with a devil (which also causes a lot of trouble).
Both Clementine and Ben go behind the group's back to talk to someone outside the group (Stranger/Bandits) because they say they have their loved ones (Clem's Parents/Ben's Classmate) and because they naively believe them (Clem runs off with the Stranger after Lee says they can't look for her parents/Ben starts slipping the Bandits meds) they end up putting the whole group in danger with their actions (Having to navigate a swarmed Savannah/Bandits attack).
Although Ben is still a pretty a colossal fuck up. I mean he unbars an obviously blocked door, as opposed to Clementine who helps you bar a door that's about to break. Still, Clem has Lee to look out for her, Ben's really got nobody. Some kind of fatherly figure probably would have done Ben a lot of good.
When I was teaching Clementine how to shoot I was wishing I'd could actually bring Ben in next and give him some basic survival pointers. I actually suspected Kenny may have been willing to fill that role after Ben finally told him off, you know, if it weren't for that stupid balcony.
I'm glad you liked it. Here's a bonus one. Vernon taking the boat was probably an impulse decision, not some cold calculated master plan like some have suggested.
When everyone's escaping the Crawford bell tower, he asks about the group coming by train only to immediately drop the subject. I'm guessing he saw the massive herd of walkers that were coming on the rails and realized that his group wouldn't be safe even in the sewers anymore because the whole city would be completely overrun. (Which we see happen in Episode 5.)
He probably knew Kenny or most of you're group wouldn't agree to let them on the boat and you don't have to be a fisherman to know that one speedboat probably can't carry ten people so he probably figured his people's best chance was just to take it for themselves.
Imagine if he was actually honest with you and told Lee's group that he saw the approaching herd and he wanted his people to come along on the boat? How would you decide something like that when only five people could go? How would you talk Kenny into it for that matter? It was still a shitty thing to do, but I really think Vernon acted more out of desperation than outright malice or simple greed.
I think this is why Vernon suddenly suggests giving up Clementine to him too. Probably between escaping from Crawford and returning to the manor he had made up his my mind about taking the boat but likely still felt at least a tinge of guilt about abandoning an adorable nine year old girl to die. If Lee agreed Vernon probably planned to take Clementine with them after they take the boat.
Respect!The man has spoken!
Yeah, I blame Larry for Lilly. She cracked, she went paranoid, she had a moment of temporary insanity. I don't think it would've happened if she had a calm and rational father to keep her grounded.
Lilly- i didn't like her attitude/how she handle things + she's a killer for god's sake. But ofc, she was trying to do what she could.
Larry- idk, what's his problem anyway? Just cus im a convict he treats me like im some kind of crazy dick. But I find him funny sometimes, when he swears- (like when he says: Stupid sh*ts/when we were in the meat locker he goes: Stupid sons of b*tches.)
Looks like most people hate the father/daughter duo.
Kenny is fine but if he was in his right mind like in the drug store I'd think he would do fine.
Hmm, Carley as a leader? I don't like that idea much, even as a Carley fan (for the most part). I think she's too caring to handle a lot of the decisions a leader would have to make. She'd be a great second in command, but I think she'd lead the group to their demise because she wanted to help someone and not realize how much of a danger she might be putting themselves in.
Oh, and uh, I already answered the question that is the point of the thread on the previous page, so I'm not really sure what else to say to make this on topic. Oh well.
I'm very annoyed with Vernon because I thought he was a nice guy and betrayed us
I can't think of someone I hate the most but Vernon was the biggest disappointment as everyone else I kind of expected them to go crazy, be selfish, be useless, be treacherous, be too brave or death prone whilst he was a Doctor and quite nice.
(Also I name a soldier in X-com after him and he ended up being a Colonel Psi powered assault as well as the chosen one before I found out about his betrayal)
Larry:He gets angry every minute withe veryone,he doesnt care about other people
and he hates lee and everybody else except her daughter!
Lilly:She Killed Carley!!!!
Larry: because he treats Lee like crap. (I still saved his ass in the meatlocker)
Kenny: because the if you don't help him, he won't help you. (I love my bro though xD)
Lilly: because she shouts way too much.
Ben: because he lied to us.
The most hated would have to be, hands down, Lilly. I understand that Lilly was just looking out for her Dad and herself, she needs to understand things and not to be such a stubborn psychopath, especially in times like an apocalypse where you need to work together and rely on total strangers. You CANNOT just shoot someone because of something you don't even know. Especially to a survivor who has never done ANYTHING to hurt the group, a good shot, and trustworthy all along. Lilly was just mad because what Carley said applied to her, and she knew it. She needed to realize that everyone in the group has someone to look out for. I sided with Kenny the whole game, because that "trustworthy" Lilly would have left the group to be eaten alive by walkers in the RV, and have shot one of the group members in the face, so either way, she screwed the group over. She turned out to be a hypocrite, and I hate her for that.
Larry was just a dusty old fart and he got what was coming to him. At first I really did sympathize for Lilly about her dad, since she was so emotional over it. She had just lost everything. But then I realized, the group was better off without him. He blackmailed Lee with stories from his past, and left him for dead. If he wasn't such an asshole by getting all worked up over nothing and didn't need his nitro glycerin pills back in episode one, they could have gotten out safely with Doug AND Carley. Lee wouldn't have to kill his brother. Things didn't have to end the way they did, but they did because of him. He doesn't even feel shame. I'm surprised that everyone didn't let him die.
Carley fan here! I think she isn't that caring. Remember, she wanted to ditch that woman in the motel. If it wasn't for Glenn and Lee, she should have left. Sure, the woman was a loss cause, but they didn't know that.
Larry is definitely my most hated character, followed by Lily. I wanted to hate Ben, but can't. I don't know, maybe because he's kid or seems so pathetic that I can't help but feel sorry for him. He kept wanting to prove himself, but somehow, he always failed. The kid is really unlucky.
I preferred Doug and Shawn. I would have liked to have been able to save Doug and Shawn without them dying anyway.
the guy on the radio is reasonable too, you messed with him, and that got his family killed, so he messes with YOUR family and that would be clem... unfortunately, i would hate him if he had gotten Clem killed though.
i can't hate Ben because... seriously he IS trying to do his best and on the streets in ep4 he was scared, i mean i didn't forgive him for the most mistakes but, i kinda understand him. he fucks up over and over again, tries harder and fucks up way harder.
Yeah, there should've been multiple endings where the ones you tried to save survived.
I liked Shawn but Kenny ended up disliking me =.=
I have a few people I disliked- i will say these by episode:
Episode 1:
1) Hershal- yeah he can be all grumpy and old and shit, but stop being a douche- i know you lose your son, but no need to be all suspicious of me
2) Larry- i dont like assholes- especially yelling assholes who jump to conclusions and dont actually think about the consequences to their decisions
-he punches Lee after Lee KILLS HIS BROTHER (zombie or not) to get the keys for that asshat.
-hes constantly grumpy, and while his lines are kinda funny, hes a jerk to everyone even his own daughter
3) Lilly- shes all kinds of bitchy and not very nice when she loses control of the group
Episode 2
Larry- again, total douche
The Bandits- ALL of them
The St. Johns- Especially the creepy younger brother who im guessing would have kissed his gun had Lee not been standing there looking at him like the gun molester that he was
Kenny- for making me kill Larry
Lily- for making me kill Larry
Episode 3
Lily- shes unhinged, selfish, stupid and irrational. Plus, even though she was right about the "count being off" with the supplies, she shoots Carly so that she can be the dominant female. And im guessing she had a crush on Lee, and might have been pissed that Lee liked Carly over her.
the bandits- causes people to get killed or bitten by walkers. Though I enjoyed the Bandits being killed by the walkers.
Ben- for not being smart enough to tell people what he was doing and for getting people killed.
Episode 4
Christa- why do you have to be so bitchy about the radio? Like I was going to take that thing away from my girl?
Vernon- for being an asshat- full stop
The people in crawford
Molly- she was a badass but reminded me of Lilly
Lilly- oh.. shes not in this episode..
Episode 5
- Vernon- i dont need a reason
-Radio man..
-Lilly.. oh wait..
BEN.
I understand Travis, but I'm curious why Irene.
Yeah we really didn't get to know Irene well enough to hate her.
She's a nutjob with cheesy dialog.
She's been bit and doesn't want to come back as a walker. Not that crazy.
I think I would have to say Larry though. Although I really hate Ben, I don't think he ever did anything with malicious intent. But Larry is the biggest asshole because despite who Lee was, there was no reason to bring up his past ESPECIALLY when he just proved that he would be a team player when he went through all that trouble (including killing his own brother!) to get Larry his medicine. Larry also causes the most conflict and the biggest divide between Kenny and Lilly. After we nearly die trying to leave the pharmacy, he has the nerve to punch us in the face. If I were given the option I would have killed him in a covert way. He was a big guy, taking up resources like food and medicine while being nothing but a complainer and dividing the group. The St. Johns are despicable but I still think our group was kind of naive to trust them so blindly. And Radioguy just went crazy.
Campman, for being an idiot, a hypocrite and for ultimately screwing everyone over because of his own idiocy. I mean, I know he's kind of mentally unstable by the point we actually get to talk to him, so his motives and reasoning was probably a bit skewed, but I have no sympathy for him - everything that's happened to him started with him losing his own son, and he accuses Lee of being callous and an inadequate guardian for Clementine? Are you serious? And then he's stupid enough to leave his car in the middle of a clearing, keys in ignition and everything, and expect everything to be intact when he comes back. Hell, nevermind being in a ZA, even in our own zombie-free world, no one would be stupid enough to do that. You leave your car like that, you are asking to be robbed. If I were his wife, I'd leave him too, for being such a useless jerk.
But yeah, as I said, he's gone crazy at this point, so it was probably just easier for him to blame Lee and his group for everything that happened than admit that he's an idiot that inadvertently let his whole family die.
And then there's the former resident asshole, Larry. Self explanatory choice, I think. I've tried to see things from his point of view and all, but he was just too violent and too much of a bully for me to like him at all. As someone said, he was pretty much designed to be hated, and I did hate him. I think the only point in his favor was that he loved and cared about his daughter, but honestly, who doesn't have someone they love and care about? Doesn't justify his actions or behavior.
I used to hate Lilly, but I've noticed both she and Kenny's attitude is quite different depending on certain interactions and who you side with more, so during my first playthrough, when I sided with Kenny near 100%, I really hated her. Second time, I tried to take her side at times and feed Larry and stuff, and I suddenly didn't hate her as much. I know she still takes off with the RV no matter what, which is why I still don't particularly like her, but I guess it's sort of justifiable considering the whole "Kenny murdered her dad brutally right in front of her face" thing.
I think that's all, the major ones that stick out for me anyway. I never hated Ben, despite the fact he's also a miserable idiot that screws people over repeatedly. Maybe because I get the feeling that if I were ever in a ZA, I'd be that raging idiot who contributes nothing to the group and screws up all the time.
And that part ^ doesn't contradict what I said about Campman - what I hated most about him is that he blames Lee and everyone else for the most part. At least Ben knows he's a fuckup, and wants to make amends for what he's done instead of assigning blame. As far as I can remember, anyway.
Edit: And just read Jaded X Gamer's post about Lilly, which reminded me of a few more reasons why I didn't like her.
Also, the lottery is a terrible way to determine who gets to eat. If it was really impossible to divide the food evenly every day and only four people would eat daily, then why didn't they simply make up a schedule and take turns? That would ensure there was no favoritism going on, reduce the number of arguments and skepticism within the group and everyone would have the same chance to eat. Why would you even leave something like that to chance? It's entirely possible for someone to just have horrid luck and not eat for days because of this, not to mention extremely easy to rig, as I'm assuming she's not holding a lottery drawing show and pulling names out of a hat for everyone to see when she distributes rations.
As far as I'm concerned, they were the only people who truly deserved to die in the entire game.
They were evil, sick, twisted cannibals that deserved nothing more than to eaten alive, just like they did to all those people they killed.
After all, they killed Mark and were going to kill the entire group, unless someone stopped them.
I wouldn't be surprised if they killed and ate their own father, too, just because the hunger got to them.
And she fucking complains about how hard it is! You're letting chance decides who eats but then you go whine about what a hard job you got? Fuck you Lilly. Maybe people hate you because you suck at your job. I didn't even think about her rigging a lottery. If you tell Mark that Larry thinks you're dangerous, he says he wouldn't be surprised if Lilly was skimming food to give to Larry. (And he would know, the man is a huge gossip.) Maybe the lottery was how she was doing it.
My experience with Lilly was the opposite of yours. On my first playthrough I was pretty sympathetic towards her, even though I didn't always agree with her. Kenny's reaction to me not helping him kill Larry really put me off him for a while. I (just barely) let her back in the R.V. after what she did, reasoning Lee got a second chance, maybe she deserved one. And in the ends she steals the R.V. and strands six people to die. (Like she knew or cared if the train worked.) Not even looking the least bit sorry as she did so.
On subsequent playthroughs I've just found myself hating her more and more and at this point I'd say she's the character I hate most (barring outright villains like the St. Johns). Even though I said I pitied her in my last post in this thread, playing the game again has mostly eroded that and I really just think she was a shitty person at heart. Yeah her father is a useless asshole and his shitty parenting is probably responsible for a lot of Lilly's problems, but she's a fucking grown woman and she keeps insisting she's the damn leader. Well fucking lead already!
Being leader means taking responsibility, as in something goes wrong you're responsible. Lilly never takes responsibility for anything. From her father treating everyone like shit ("It's just his way!"), to running out of food ("Suddenly I'm a god damn nazi!"), to having no fucking plans on how to deal with bandits or dwindling supplies ("I just want a week where I don't have to deal with this!") Step up or step aside. It really shows she was just a paper pusher at the Airforce, she governs like an incompetent bureaucrat.
She's not even sorry for shooting Carley or Doug. Either Carley wasn't trustworthy (She was!) or it wasn't supposed to be Doug (Sorry he interrupted your surprise execution!) Either way she doesn’t really care. She only regrets it because it caused the whole group to turn on her, which she of course complains about ("I'm tied up like animal!") and then strands everyone because she knows they won't help her anymore.
Carley was right to called her a scared little girl. If anything she was being too nice, I’d call Lilly a dirty coward. She wants to be in charge so she can justify sending people out to do the dangerous work while she sits around somewhere safe. It’s probably why she’s so against leaving the Motor Inn or the Pharmacy initially, she might actually have to put herself at risk. Also probably why Ben is on watch in Episode 3, there’s actually people shooting back now. The only real time she attacks anyone is when their back is turned or she’s far enough away to not suffer a counter attack.
Maybe if she had any backbone she could have worked up the nerve to tell her asshole father to sit down and shut up in the meat locker before he gave himself another heart attack, like he had already did once before. Instead she just keeps meekly pleading with him in her most pathetic voice. Gotta love the one time she doesn’t switch to mega bitch mode is the one time it may have actually helped.
Anyways, enough about Lilly. I actually did feel sorry for the Stranger. Maybe because I was pretty much certain he was coming back for his station wagon. I mean the keys are in the ignition and the lights are still on, which means it couldn’t have been there for more than one night since that would run the batteries down. And the gas gauge is empty, they were out looking for gas probably.
He reminded me a lot of Jolene (whom I also felt bad for). Someone who was probably just a regular person before everything went bad and lost their fucking mind when all their loved ones died since it left them completely alone. I felt it really demonstrated just what such a horrible world would do to regular people, and how desperate it would make them.
You’re right about the Stranger being a hypocrite though. His whole rant against Lee is just him projecting his own failures onto Lee. Trying to rationalize his family’s deaths as someone else’s fault since he won’t accept responsibility for it, as if Lee and his group would be the only people who would ever wrong him. Grasping at straws to try and make Lee unsuitable so he can feel justified in lying to Clementine and kidnapping her.
And yet I still felt incredibly sorry for him. Maybe because I’m a bleeding heart pansy so I keep sympathizing with him during the conversation and by the end he didn’t even sound mad anymore. He actually seemed to feel bad for Lee for a moment when I told him I was bitten. Then he started talking to his bowling bag and it was kinda obvious he was too far gone to help.
When he died I looked at his corpse for a short moment and whispered “I’m sorry”. Sorry we didn’t wait for him to come back to his car, maybe invite his family to come back to Motor Inn. Sorry he was just another person whom I couldn’t save. Sorry that we had to kill him since I couldn’t convince him to let go of his own bitter revenge. If felt tragic just because if one little thing had gone differently, he could have been another family living with our group, just trying to survive.
As for Ben, I’m pretty much on the same page as you. Could never really be angry with. He’s well meaning fuck-up, which I felt was probably a realistic depiction of a teenage band geek trapped in zombie apocalypse. Scared and clueless to what he should do. Like I said, he really needed a parental figure to guide him. Clementine had Lee to protect her and teach her, Ben was pretty much left to fend for himself.
Whow. Sir, I understand all of your points. Especially these regarding Lilly, but somehow I just can't hate her. I just wanna be with her and hug her, having her in my group all the time, but not as Leader anymore.
I don't really hate anyone of dem characters, I never could. I was glad, they are where they. I think, the most I despise Kenny. He is just there for you, If you have been there for him, but one time you don't kill for him, he thinks really bad of you and does not even try to help you.
"Then what do we not forgive?! Honestly! Tell me!"
She then MURDERS Carley in cold blood and mopes how we treated her like an "animal." It seriously infuriated me. There is some stuff I love about Lilly, other stuff I hate. The more I think about it, there's more and more stuff that I hate about her.