I just can't see it how people find Carls' action the right call. The kid was pointing the gun the other way. It was only one kid that was scared. Why would a kid try to pull of anything? It's a kid we're talking about here, not some badass warrior that knows how to pull out a stun and get away with it.
Apocalypse or no, if you fired first - it's a murder. If you fired second - that's a cross fire. Police would not shoot if the suspect would not follow orders on the first command. They would give second one, then the third one if needed. And if that wouldn't help, they would start a slow approach to the suspect. If a suspect tried to pull anything, they would shoot his foot or hand, they wouldn't go for a kill. It's all about neutralizing not eliminating.
Because if Carl made the right call, then the Govenor isn't wrong for killing all his people. They disobeyed him so now he shouldn't take any chances with them.
The shotgun was still pointed in their general direction, look at the scene. Hell, you can make a better case for the governor surrendering to Allen - his weapon was pointed at the ground. Remind me how that went for Allen again. Incidentally, this is what surrendering troops look like:
Note the lack of shotguns among the guys with white flags.
There's also a saying that fits well here: "The best swordsman in the world doesn't fear the 2nd best swordsman in the world, he fears the worst swordsman in the world because he can't predict what the idiot'll do". Besides which, people who underestimate enemies tend not to make it long.
And I'm not sure where you're getting your information about police procedure; I'm pretty sure if somebody's stupid enough to have a firearm pointed in the general direction of the police, they're permitted to ventilate the guy with no further ado.
The people that take a chance on a guy with a weapon pointed in their general direction, who had just taken part in an attack against them tend to be called Darwin Award winners.
Again, we're going off the real thing here. Carl shot the kid not because his weapon was or wasn't pointing at him, not because the kid was approaching or running away and not because the kid did or didn't dropped his weapon. He shot the kid, because he thought that if they would let him live, the kid would go back to Woodbury making the Govenor come back and cause more deaths (or something like that)
Clearly the soldiers surrendering and the kid surrendering are two VERY different things..
My father is a police officer.
The kid didn't really taken any part of attack. He was running to attack ,maybe, but he didn't even got a chance to explain himself. The call Carl made makes him no better than the Govenor. Why? Because Carl didn't gave that kid a chance. Just because someone caused his mother death, doesn't mean that everyone in the world are like these people.
What if there was another group of people that were actually friendly? And that kid was a part of it and not with the Govenor? So now, by shooting the kid just like that, Carl has threaten them all with another group (obviously that isn't true) but they didn't gave the kid a chance to explain himself.
If you stumble upon a problem, you think before acting. You don't find solution of one problem and consider it a solution to everything.
I just can't see it how people find Carls' action the right call. The kid was pointing the gun the other way. It was only one kid that was scared. Why would a kid try to pull of anything? It's a kid we're talking about here, not some badass warrior that knows how to pull out a stun and get away with it.
He doesn't need to be a badass warrior, just dumb and/or desperate enough to try to pull a fast one.
And it's true that he might be scared, but it is quite possible that that fear could be precisely what drove him to pretend surrendering. The Governor has basically been filling the townsfolk with all sorts of propaganda about how crazy Rick's group is. Even Karen initially called Rick's group a bunch of crazy psychos.
So, shotgun kid might be thinking that Rick's group might torture him for awhile , execute him anyway, etc. etc. In other words, if the Governor have really gotten into his mind, shotgun kid might decide that he had nothing to lose by pulling off a stunt.
Okay, so I've had a discussion with my father today(more family time and a great family topic haha) But yeah, I got a few things wrong (I guess I've imagined whole swat team surrendering one guy, funny) He said that in the real life situation there are a lot of different factors that would change the scenario, but in almost all cases police officer would shoot if suspect would act the same way as the kid(since you cannot allow armed suspects approach closer to officer, etc.. etc..)
I guess that a bit of emotions and dislike for Carl made me think otherwise. Heh, sorry guys!
Okay, so I've had a discussion with my father today(more family time and a great family topic haha) But yeah, I got a few things wrong (I guess I've imagined whole swat team surrendering one guy, funny) He said that in the real life situation there are a lot of different factors that would change the scenario, but in almost all cases police officer would shoot if suspect would act the same way as the kid(since you cannot allow armed suspects approach closer to officer, etc.. etc..)
I guess that a bit of emotions and dislike for Carl made me think otherwise. Heh, sorry guys!
No need to apologize! It was a good discussion, and you did try to give reasons for your point of view.
He doesn't need to be a badass warrior, just dumb and/or desperate enough to try to pull a fast one.
And it's true that he might be scared, but it is quite possible that that fear could be precisely what drove him to pretend surrendering. The Governor has basically been filling the townsfolk with all sorts of propaganda about how crazy Rick's group is. Even Karen initially called Rick's group a bunch of crazy psychos.
So, shotgun kid might be thinking that Rick's group might torture him for awhile , execute him anyway, etc. etc. In other words, if the Governor have really gotten into his mind, shotgun kid might decide that he had nothing to lose by pulling off a stunt.
That too. From Carl's position, he wouldn't even necessarily know that the assault on the prison was already over.
When it comes to war (and that's basically what it was), for the most part, any notion of sportsmanship goes right out the window. You get one life and no continues, at no point are you required to let somebody attempt shenanigans... hell, there's examples of what happens when you do within the show itself: when Rick was handing over his pistol to Shane in the 2nd season (which resulted in Shane getting stabbed to death) or the example I've cited earlier where the Governor ends up shooting Allen in the face.
If you want to repeat the same thing over and over without responding to the points others have raised, then fine. But if you're ever in a situation where you need to surrender, don't copy Jody.
Jody is a fine example of how not to surrender. What he should have done is thrown down his shotgun and start crying while saying "I didn't want to hurt anyone! They forced me to join them, blah blah blah..."
It's probably for the best that Carl shot Jody. Things didn't go so well for their last prisoner (Randall).
If you want to repeat the same thing over and over without responding to the points others have raised, then fine. But if you're ever in a situation where you need to surrender, don't copy Jody.
ok then the kid ran away from the fight, he had 2 guns pointed at his head, he said he was surrendering but he slightly hesitated because he was terrified, i would say moving quickly would be just as bad idea as moving slowly but he was surrendering, carl killed him when he demonstrated no threatening behaviour (excluding not quite getting the gun to the floor fast enough) and did nothing except do what carl said, that is why is is murder
Jody inched forward to Carl while shifting his gaze between Carl and Hershel like he's measuring them up. If he lunges and grabs Carl then it doesn't matter how many guns are on him since he'll have Carl as a hostage/shield and he was only 5 feet away from Carl at the time. If anything, in this case, Jody's behavior is even more suspicious than normal since he was specifically told to drop the gun yet acted as if he was going to hand it over to Carl instead who's conveniently alot weaker than Jody. Heck, the first thing I was thinking when watching that scene was that Jody is going to lunge at Carl and take him hostage unless Hershel shot him, fortunately Carl pulled through. Dropping your gun (not too fast or too slow) and raising your hands is the universally recognized way to surrender. What Jody did? What he did would get him shot in any combat zone by any enemy soldier.
He is told to drop the damn gun, if he has no interest in killing anyone, and he means to surrender he does what he is told more than once, if not, that is just what happens, maybe the kid was scared, but Carl can't take any chances, that's one of the Governor's men after all, and his propaganda bullshit said the prisoners are a bunch of crazy people, bandits perhaps.
He is told to drop the damn gun, if he has no interest in killing anyone, and he means to surrender he does what he is told more than once, if not, that is just what happens, maybe the kid was scared, but Carl can't take any chances, that's one of the Governor's men after all, and his propaganda bullshit said the prisoners are a bunch of crazy people, bandits perhaps.
He could have dropped the gun while he was running also and even if he encountered walkers, he'd be faster than them.
For example, kill a walker take its blood put it on your body and you become unrecognisable to them. It's disgusting but it's a great way to get through walkers without trouble.
ok then the kid ran away from the fight, he had 2 guns pointed at his head, he said he was surrendering but he slightly hesitated because he was terrified, i would say moving quickly would be just as bad idea as moving slowly but he was surrendering, carl killed him when he demonstrated no threatening behaviour (excluding not quite getting the gun to the floor fast enough) and did nothing except do what carl said, that is why is is murder
No threatening behavior? Even ignoring the fact the kid didn't comply with directions to drop his weapon...
1.) The kid's finger is right near the trigger (and as noted, his shotgun had a round chambered).
2.) He's inching closer to Carl and could easily overpower him. Remind me, how did Shane die again? Oh yeah, when he was stabbed by Rick as he closed the distance by inching closer to hand over his gun. As has been pointed out. There's a reason we're taught to maintain distance.
Take a look at the picture I posted of the surrendering Iraqis again; out of the entire group I see not one shotgun among them. That's what people who are actually making a good faith effort to surrender look like, and they probably don't even understand English.
No threatening behavior? Even ignoring the fact the kid didn't comply with directions to drop his weapon...
1.) The kid's finger is right near the trigger (and as noted, his shotgun had a round chambered).
2.) He's inching closer to Carl and could easily overpower him. Remind me, how did Shane die again? Oh yeah, when he was stabbed by Rick as he closed the distance by inching closer to hand over his gun. As has been pointed out. There's a reason we're taught to maintain distance.
Take a look at the picture I posted of the surrendering Iraqis again; out of the entire group I see not one shotgun among them. That's what people who are actually making a good faith effort to surrender look like, and they probably don't even understand English.
are you serious? the kid was running away then was basically ambushed by carl and hershel, he wasn't trying to find people to surrender to like in the picture, he was running away and then all of a sudden he had 2 guns pointed at his head, if he had time he probably would have made a white flag and not been holding a gun, but he didn't know they were there he was just sprinting away from the ambush in the prison when he gets ambushed by more people, that picture is the most ridiculous argument ever
are you serious? the kid was running away then was basically ambushed by carl and hershel, he wasn't trying to find people to surrender to like in the picture, he was running away and then all of a sudden he had 2 guns pointed at his head, if he had time he probably would have made a white flag and not been holding a gun, but he didn't know they were there he was just sprinting away from the ambush in the prison when he gets ambushed by more people, that picture is the most ridiculous argument ever
And? The fact that you're actually arguing he had no intention of surrendering until he just happened to run into Carl and Hershel doesn't exactly help your case regarding the kid's intentions.
Even giving the kid a chance to surrender rather than just shooting him dead the instant he came into view (again, in what is essentially a battlefield) was generous - from Carl and Hershel's position, they wouldn't even necessarily know the assault on the prison was already over or that the kid was actually alone.
He's told to drop his weapon and he had more than enough time to comply. Instead, he uses that time to inch forward and doesn't even move his finger away from the trigger.
Even from a "moral" standpoint, frankly, shooting the kid was the right call. If the people you're with are trusting you to keep them alive and safe, it's extremely immoral to jeopardize their lives just for the sake of your "clear" conscience. Selfishly placing your beliefs above their safety is a damn big breach of that trust.
He's told to drop his weapon and he had more than enough time to comply. Instead, he uses that time to inch forward and doesn't even move his finger away from the trigger.
That's the whole point, frankly I think the kid was overwhelmed by the situation itself, because he didn't expect them to jump him, he isn't attacking, nor is he really surrendering, I think he tried to keep the gun until he decided, he could have shot at least one of them without a problem if he just made one quick move. This whole discussion makes me want to have some insight into what he really had in mind. If he'd been serious about surrendering, he would have dropped that piece, but he didn't so even if I don't like how it ended Carl did right.
And? The fact that you're actually arguing he had no intention of surrendering until he just happened to run into Carl and Hershel doesn't exactly help your case regarding the kid's intentions.
Even giving the kid a chance to surrender rather than just shooting him dead the instant he came into view (again, in what is essentially a battlefield) was generous - from Carl and Hershel's position, they wouldn't even necessarily know the assault on the prison was already over or that the kid was actually alone.
He's told to drop his weapon and he had more than enough time to comply. Instead, he uses that time to inch forward and doesn't even move his finger away from the trigger.
Even from a "moral" standpoint, frankly, shooting the kid was the right call. If the people you're with are trusting you to keep them alive and safe, it's extremely immoral to jeopardize their lives just for the sake of your "clear" conscience. Selfishly placing your beliefs above their safety is a damn big breach of that trust.
it is immoral to kill without conscience, if the kid was the governor you may have a point but this kid was drafted into a fight and he ran away from it, from your "moral" standpoint they should have killed everybody on woodbury because how could you know for sure you can trust them
it is immoral to kill without conscience, if the kid was the governor you may have a point but this kid was drafted into a fight and he ran away from it, from your "moral" standpoint they should have killed everybody on woodbury because how could you know for sure you can trust them
Again, and? Carl and company wouldn't know that. People who underestimate enemies tend to be called casualties. For all they knew, that kid could have been a scout, a distraction, etc. he could've been killing guys for the past year.
Ultimately, it's irrelevant.
And among the old farts and kids from woodbury that joined the prison group, I didn't see a single weapon among them either, nor did they participate in the attack.
It doesn't answer the point either; if you're willing to gamble with the lives of people that trusting you to keep them safe in the face of a threat for no other reason than your person beliefs, you are betraying those people. Plain and simple. It's the height of selfishness. In that situation, my ultimate responsibility is to the people I'm with, not to shotgun kid.
Again, and? Carl and company wouldn't know that. People who underestimate enemies tend to be called casualties. For all they knew, that kid could have been a scout, a distraction, etc. he could've been killing guys for the past year.
Ultimately, it's irrelevant.
And among the old farts and kids from woodbury that joined the prison group, I didn't see a single weapon among them either, nor did they participate in the attack.
It doesn't answer the point either; if you're willing to gamble with the lives of people that trusting you to keep them safe in the face of a threat for no other reason than your person beliefs, you are betraying those people. Plain and simple. It's the height of selfishness. In that situation, my ultimate responsibility is to the people I'm with, not to shotgun kid.
what makes your group so special? why not save everybody you can? maybe they will become your greatest ally, you can't know if you just kill them, it is selfish to only care about you and your friends and disregard others.
ok then the kid ran away from the fight, he had 2 guns pointed at his head, he said he was surrendering but he slightly hesitated because he was terrified, i would say moving quickly would be just as bad idea as moving slowly but he was surrendering, carl killed him when he demonstrated no threatening behaviour (excluding not quite getting the gun to the floor fast enough) and did nothing except do what carl said, that is why is is murder
Instead of moving either quickly or slowly, how about actually obeying instructions to DROP the gun? How about doing the universal sign of surrendering by putting up your hands in the air?
You are either not remembering the scene correctly or being disingenuous by claiming shotgun kid "did nothing except do what carl said."
Instead, he kept walking towards Carl with a weapon in hand. He was told to drop the weapon. Why do you keep ignoring this? By refusing to comply with instructions to surrender is to demonstrate threatening behaviour.
are you serious? the kid was running away then was basically ambushed by carl and hershel, he wasn't trying to find people to surrender to like in the picture, he was running away and then all of a sudden he had 2 guns pointed at his head, if he had time he probably would have made a white flag and not been holding a gun, but he didn't know they were there he was just sprinting away from the ambush in the prison when he gets ambushed by more people, that picture is the most ridiculous argument ever
Stop twisting the purpose of the photograph Rommel used. The point of it is show that people who want to surrender do whatever they can to prove they are not a threat. It's both the smart and natural thing to do for people who clearly want to surrender.
No one is asking shotgun kid to make a white flag. The point a lot of us have stressed is that he should have dropped the gun right away. That was what he was told to do and was given enough time to comply, but he ignored those instructions. You keep ignoring this fact.
it is immoral to kill without conscience, if the kid was the governor you may have a point but this kid was drafted into a fight and he ran away from it, from your "moral" standpoint they should have killed everybody on woodbury because how could you know for sure you can trust them
Based on your logic, should Allied soldiers not shoot anyone except Hitler during the war? After all, a lot of German soldiers were conscripted.
Also, he was part of an army that was routed, and in the scramble to the trucks, he was left behind. He was not some deserter, which you seem to be implying. I don't see how that gives him a special pass to live.
what makes your group so special? why not save everybody you can? maybe they will become your greatest ally, you can't know if you just kill them, it is selfish to only care about you and your friends and disregard others.
This isn't two groups who just casually bumped into each other. This was two groups AT WAR. So yes, Carl's responsibilities is to his group first not an armed stranger who just took part in an attempt to wipe out his family, friends, and home. He had every reason not to trust his enemies, who killed Oscar, Axel, Merle, tortured Glenn and Maggie, and released a pack of walkers into his home. Shotgun kid may not have had a hand in those, but he was part of a group that did. That makes them enemies that you couldn't trust.
what makes your group so special? why not save everybody you can? maybe they will become your greatest ally, you can't know if you just kill them, it is selfish to only care about you and your friends and disregard others.
First, double u covered a good portion of this. The responsibility I have to my own group far outweighs the responsibility I have to anyone else, nevermind someone that had just taken part in an attack on friends and family.
This shouldn't even require explanation. It's the social contract at its most basic, you know, the thing that ensures that little things called "soceities" actually function. When it comes to the people who are responsible for your continued survival and who are depending on you for theirs, there's a moral imperative to do whatever needs to be done for their sake... My personal beliefs or squeamishness be damned if there's even a possibility they'll interfere with that.
That doesn't hold true for another group or its members (particularly if they just attacked friends and family). I don't have the same responsibility to them; morally or otherwise.
And this has been understood in functioning soceities for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's been widely held by scholars and philosophers (as well as people with common sense) that the biggest moral imperative a nation has is to ensure the safety of its own citizens.
Season 1 was brilliant.
2 got boring for a while with the "wheres sophia" But picked up in the end with an epic last 2 episodes.
3 Was good. Liked the clash between the two, more bloody fights. Merles return, Michonnes a bad ass, Rick goes psycho and Daryl didnt die.
The ending was a little disappointing. It was a good episode, but didn't have the "epic finale" feeling when you compare it to the first two seasons or how the prison arc ends in the comic book.
Andrea lived a stupid life and died a stupid death (i mean all the time spent talking to Milton ,seriously?), but the did the scene with Michonne well well and the manner of her death did fit her character, fantasising over the perfect solution (where Milton survives) so much that she lost focus on what had to be done.
Was Carl right to shoot the kid? In my opinion, no. On it's own not monstrous, but i think that looks like the start of a worrying path for him.
No the show isn't as good as the comics, or the game, but it's still very good. Kind of hanging around 8/10 while the other two hit 9 and 10.
Some of you guys sound like Hershel had actually approved of Carl's behavior, which he clearly didn't. He outright said that Carl "gunned that kid down" when talking to Rick later on - a statement that has murder spelled all over it.
This whole scene shows how much Carl is still a little kid, not being able to take a role as an adult yet. He was outraged that he wasn't allowed to participate in the fight, angry enough so he took the opportunity to kill an enemy and disobey his "orders" just to participate. Carl has pretty much lost it in that episode, he is in an allout rage he clearly can't control... and actually sees no need to either. Having abandoned our moral system, he thinks it's totally ok to kill - it has become a part of his every day life. Carl is a child, he adapts differently to this new world than the adults do.
While the adults in the group still try to shape the world around them, the world still shapes Carl.
Some of you guys sound like Hershel had actually approved of Carl's behavior, which he clearly didn't. He outright said that Carl "gunned that kid down" when talking to Rick later on - a statement that has murder spelled all over it.
This whole scene shows how much Carl is still a little kid, not being able to take a role as an adult yet. He was outraged that he wasn't allowed to participate in the fight, angry enough so he took the opportunity to kill an enemy and disobey his "orders" just to participate. Carl has pretty much lost it in that episode, he is in an allout rage he clearly can't control... and actually sees no need to either. Having abandoned our moral system, he thinks it's totally ok to kill - it has become a part of his every day life. Carl is a child, he adapts differently to this new world than the adults do.
While the adults in the group still try to shape the world around them, the world still shapes Carl.
Agreed.
I think that Carl becoming a monster and Rick trying to deal with it is going to be the big thing next season.
Some of you guys sound like Hershel had actually approved of Carl's behavior, which he clearly didn't. He outright said that Carl "gunned that kid down" when talking to Rick later on - a statement that has murder spelled all over it.
This whole scene shows how much Carl is still a little kid, not being able to take a role as an adult yet. He was outraged that he wasn't allowed to participate in the fight, angry enough so he took the opportunity to kill an enemy and disobey his "orders" just to participate. Carl has pretty much lost it in that episode, he is in an allout rage he clearly can't control... and actually sees no need to either. Having abandoned our moral system, he thinks it's totally ok to kill - it has become a part of his every day life. Carl is a child, he adapts differently to this new world than the adults do.
While the adults in the group still try to shape the world around them, the world still shapes Carl.
I never suggested Hershel approved, but in that situation to paraphrase Glenn from the 2nd season: I'd rather he be alive and hating me than liking me and dead.
Carl's intentions are irrelevant to it being the right call... good intentions, road to hell and all that.
Facts remain, 1.) kid's finger is near the trigger during the whole exchange, 2.) he was part of the group that had just attacked friends and family, 3.) he didn't comply with the order to drop his weapon.
Shotgun kid was given more than enough leeway; three strikes and you're out.
The main thing that annoyed me regarding the season finale is the way people are reacting because it wasn't an epic showdown. Not every finale has to be this spectacular thing that races through to final conclusions at like 100 miles per hour. Quieter finales are just as good, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Of course I also enjoyed all of season 2 because at the basic level I prefer character stories over constant action.
I never suggested Hershel approved, but in that situation to paraphrase Glenn from the 2nd season: I'd rather he be alive and hating me than liking me and dead.
Carl's intentions are irrelevant to it being the right call... good intentions, road to hell and all that.
Facts remain, 1.) kid's finger is near the trigger during the whole exchange, 2.) he was part of the group that had just attacked friends and family, 3.) he didn't comply with the order to drop his weapon.
Shotgun kid was given more than enough leeway; three strikes and you're out.
So you suggest that a obviously parttime deranged 10 year old should make that decision, instead of Hershel. Sorry, but I'm not on your page, actually pretty sure I'm not reading the same book... but hey...
The main thing that annoyed me regarding the season finale is the way people are reacting because it wasn't an epic showdown. Not every finale has to be this spectacular thing that races through to final conclusions at like 100 miles per hour. Quieter finales are just as good, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Of course I also enjoyed all of season 2 because at the basic level I prefer character stories over constant action.
I totally agree. I found season 3 to be the weakest for my tasting, but I really liked the ending. Maybe except for Andrea dying, probably wanted her to have a chance for redemption with her group... I mean "real" redemption through actions. But whatever, she's gone... just like so many others I would have wanted to stay.
The main thing that annoyed me regarding the season finale is the way people are reacting because it wasn't an epic showdown. Not every finale has to be this spectacular thing that races through to final conclusions at like 100 miles per hour. Quieter finales are just as good, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Of course I also enjoyed all of season 2 because at the basic level I prefer character stories over constant action.
Season three finale just didn't match up with how it was supposed to. Also, AMC hyped it up too much, with the whole "28 deaths, and will leave people jaws dropped" when it wasn't that good. Milton's death was kinda stupid, considering his attempt to kill the Governor. Also, with Andrea taking her sweet time to get those pliers and having a joyful conversation with someone who is about to turn. Also, the Governor's shootout made little sense, and of course no one was able to kill him because he is immortal. Even Alan, who was aimed right at him, watched as Phillip pointed his gun at him and shot him in the head. Also, Andrea's death in general wasn't thrilling or intense, because not much was overall felt for the character; she made way too many mistakes, and not enough progress, and got killed because she was so slow.
Now the group has many old citizens and children that they have to provide for, since Phillip killed most of the able people. Also, with all the supplies Woodbury had, no supplies were brought back to the prison? What about the walkers that were inside the prison, how come none were seen inside the prison block? How did Glenn and Maggie kill no one of the mass of attackers?
Just too much didn't make sense or felt pointless, and I feel the only death that weighed on me was Milton's, and he died a pointless death.
Comments
The shotgun was still pointed in their general direction, look at the scene. Hell, you can make a better case for the governor surrendering to Allen - his weapon was pointed at the ground. Remind me how that went for Allen again. Incidentally, this is what surrendering troops look like:
Note the lack of shotguns among the guys with white flags.
There's also a saying that fits well here: "The best swordsman in the world doesn't fear the 2nd best swordsman in the world, he fears the worst swordsman in the world because he can't predict what the idiot'll do". Besides which, people who underestimate enemies tend not to make it long.
And I'm not sure where you're getting your information about police procedure; I'm pretty sure if somebody's stupid enough to have a firearm pointed in the general direction of the police, they're permitted to ventilate the guy with no further ado.
The people that take a chance on a guy with a weapon pointed in their general direction, who had just taken part in an attack against them tend to be called Darwin Award winners.
Clearly the soldiers surrendering and the kid surrendering are two VERY different things..
My father is a police officer.
The kid didn't really taken any part of attack. He was running to attack ,maybe, but he didn't even got a chance to explain himself. The call Carl made makes him no better than the Govenor. Why? Because Carl didn't gave that kid a chance. Just because someone caused his mother death, doesn't mean that everyone in the world are like these people.
What if there was another group of people that were actually friendly? And that kid was a part of it and not with the Govenor? So now, by shooting the kid just like that, Carl has threaten them all with another group (obviously that isn't true) but they didn't gave the kid a chance to explain himself.
If you stumble upon a problem, you think before acting. You don't find solution of one problem and consider it a solution to everything.
He doesn't need to be a badass warrior, just dumb and/or desperate enough to try to pull a fast one.
And it's true that he might be scared, but it is quite possible that that fear could be precisely what drove him to pretend surrendering. The Governor has basically been filling the townsfolk with all sorts of propaganda about how crazy Rick's group is. Even Karen initially called Rick's group a bunch of crazy psychos.
So, shotgun kid might be thinking that Rick's group might torture him for awhile , execute him anyway, etc. etc. In other words, if the Governor have really gotten into his mind, shotgun kid might decide that he had nothing to lose by pulling off a stunt.
I guess that a bit of emotions and dislike for Carl made me think otherwise. Heh, sorry guys!
No need to apologize! It was a good discussion, and you did try to give reasons for your point of view.
That too. From Carl's position, he wouldn't even necessarily know that the assault on the prison was already over.
When it comes to war (and that's basically what it was), for the most part, any notion of sportsmanship goes right out the window. You get one life and no continues, at no point are you required to let somebody attempt shenanigans... hell, there's examples of what happens when you do within the show itself: when Rick was handing over his pistol to Shane in the 2nd season (which resulted in Shane getting stabbed to death) or the example I've cited earlier where the Governor ends up shooting Allen in the face.
Jody is a fine example of how not to surrender. What he should have done is thrown down his shotgun and start crying while saying "I didn't want to hurt anyone! They forced me to join them, blah blah blah..."
It's probably for the best that Carl shot Jody. Things didn't go so well for their last prisoner (Randall).
ok then the kid ran away from the fight, he had 2 guns pointed at his head, he said he was surrendering but he slightly hesitated because he was terrified, i would say moving quickly would be just as bad idea as moving slowly but he was surrendering, carl killed him when he demonstrated no threatening behaviour (excluding not quite getting the gun to the floor fast enough) and did nothing except do what carl said, that is why is is murder
He could have dropped the gun while he was running also and even if he encountered walkers, he'd be faster than them.
For example, kill a walker take its blood put it on your body and you become unrecognisable to them. It's disgusting but it's a great way to get through walkers without trouble.
No threatening behavior? Even ignoring the fact the kid didn't comply with directions to drop his weapon...
1.) The kid's finger is right near the trigger (and as noted, his shotgun had a round chambered).
2.) He's inching closer to Carl and could easily overpower him. Remind me, how did Shane die again? Oh yeah, when he was stabbed by Rick as he closed the distance by inching closer to hand over his gun. As has been pointed out. There's a reason we're taught to maintain distance.
Take a look at the picture I posted of the surrendering Iraqis again; out of the entire group I see not one shotgun among them. That's what people who are actually making a good faith effort to surrender look like, and they probably don't even understand English.
are you serious? the kid was running away then was basically ambushed by carl and hershel, he wasn't trying to find people to surrender to like in the picture, he was running away and then all of a sudden he had 2 guns pointed at his head, if he had time he probably would have made a white flag and not been holding a gun, but he didn't know they were there he was just sprinting away from the ambush in the prison when he gets ambushed by more people, that picture is the most ridiculous argument ever
Isn't that a good thing?
And? The fact that you're actually arguing he had no intention of surrendering until he just happened to run into Carl and Hershel doesn't exactly help your case regarding the kid's intentions.
Even giving the kid a chance to surrender rather than just shooting him dead the instant he came into view (again, in what is essentially a battlefield) was generous - from Carl and Hershel's position, they wouldn't even necessarily know the assault on the prison was already over or that the kid was actually alone.
He's told to drop his weapon and he had more than enough time to comply. Instead, he uses that time to inch forward and doesn't even move his finger away from the trigger.
Even from a "moral" standpoint, frankly, shooting the kid was the right call. If the people you're with are trusting you to keep them alive and safe, it's extremely immoral to jeopardize their lives just for the sake of your "clear" conscience. Selfishly placing your beliefs above their safety is a damn big breach of that trust.
Where's the Governor's corpse?!
That's the whole point, frankly I think the kid was overwhelmed by the situation itself, because he didn't expect them to jump him, he isn't attacking, nor is he really surrendering, I think he tried to keep the gun until he decided, he could have shot at least one of them without a problem if he just made one quick move. This whole discussion makes me want to have some insight into what he really had in mind. If he'd been serious about surrendering, he would have dropped that piece, but he didn't so even if I don't like how it ended Carl did right.
it is immoral to kill without conscience, if the kid was the governor you may have a point but this kid was drafted into a fight and he ran away from it, from your "moral" standpoint they should have killed everybody on woodbury because how could you know for sure you can trust them
Again, and? Carl and company wouldn't know that. People who underestimate enemies tend to be called casualties. For all they knew, that kid could have been a scout, a distraction, etc. he could've been killing guys for the past year.
Ultimately, it's irrelevant.
And among the old farts and kids from woodbury that joined the prison group, I didn't see a single weapon among them either, nor did they participate in the attack.
It doesn't answer the point either; if you're willing to gamble with the lives of people that trusting you to keep them safe in the face of a threat for no other reason than your person beliefs, you are betraying those people. Plain and simple. It's the height of selfishness. In that situation, my ultimate responsibility is to the people I'm with, not to shotgun kid.
what makes your group so special? why not save everybody you can? maybe they will become your greatest ally, you can't know if you just kill them, it is selfish to only care about you and your friends and disregard others.
he surrendered, carl killed him just in case, that was wrong, end of
Instead of moving either quickly or slowly, how about actually obeying instructions to DROP the gun? How about doing the universal sign of surrendering by putting up your hands in the air?
You are either not remembering the scene correctly or being disingenuous by claiming shotgun kid "did nothing except do what carl said."
Instead, he kept walking towards Carl with a weapon in hand. He was told to drop the weapon. Why do you keep ignoring this? By refusing to comply with instructions to surrender is to demonstrate threatening behaviour.
Stop twisting the purpose of the photograph Rommel used. The point of it is show that people who want to surrender do whatever they can to prove they are not a threat. It's both the smart and natural thing to do for people who clearly want to surrender.
No one is asking shotgun kid to make a white flag. The point a lot of us have stressed is that he should have dropped the gun right away. That was what he was told to do and was given enough time to comply, but he ignored those instructions. You keep ignoring this fact.
Based on your logic, should Allied soldiers not shoot anyone except Hitler during the war? After all, a lot of German soldiers were conscripted.
Also, he was part of an army that was routed, and in the scramble to the trucks, he was left behind. He was not some deserter, which you seem to be implying. I don't see how that gives him a special pass to live.
This isn't two groups who just casually bumped into each other. This was two groups AT WAR. So yes, Carl's responsibilities is to his group first not an armed stranger who just took part in an attempt to wipe out his family, friends, and home. He had every reason not to trust his enemies, who killed Oscar, Axel, Merle, tortured Glenn and Maggie, and released a pack of walkers into his home. Shotgun kid may not have had a hand in those, but he was part of a group that did. That makes them enemies that you couldn't trust.
At the end of the day, you keep ignoring all the valid suspicions other posters have raised.
First, double u covered a good portion of this. The responsibility I have to my own group far outweighs the responsibility I have to anyone else, nevermind someone that had just taken part in an attack on friends and family.
This shouldn't even require explanation. It's the social contract at its most basic, you know, the thing that ensures that little things called "soceities" actually function. When it comes to the people who are responsible for your continued survival and who are depending on you for theirs, there's a moral imperative to do whatever needs to be done for their sake... My personal beliefs or squeamishness be damned if there's even a possibility they'll interfere with that.
That doesn't hold true for another group or its members (particularly if they just attacked friends and family). I don't have the same responsibility to them; morally or otherwise.
And this has been understood in functioning soceities for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's been widely held by scholars and philosophers (as well as people with common sense) that the biggest moral imperative a nation has is to ensure the safety of its own citizens.
2 got boring for a while with the "wheres sophia" But picked up in the end with an epic last 2 episodes.
3 Was good. Liked the clash between the two, more bloody fights. Merles return, Michonnes a bad ass, Rick goes psycho and Daryl didnt die.
Andrea lived a stupid life and died a stupid death (i mean all the time spent talking to Milton ,seriously?), but the did the scene with Michonne well well and the manner of her death did fit her character, fantasising over the perfect solution (where Milton survives) so much that she lost focus on what had to be done.
Was Carl right to shoot the kid? In my opinion, no. On it's own not monstrous, but i think that looks like the start of a worrying path for him.
No the show isn't as good as the comics, or the game, but it's still very good. Kind of hanging around 8/10 while the other two hit 9 and 10.
Which one's the 9, which one's the 10?
I'd say that varies on an episode to volume basis... or is that a cop out
This whole scene shows how much Carl is still a little kid, not being able to take a role as an adult yet. He was outraged that he wasn't allowed to participate in the fight, angry enough so he took the opportunity to kill an enemy and disobey his "orders" just to participate. Carl has pretty much lost it in that episode, he is in an allout rage he clearly can't control... and actually sees no need to either. Having abandoned our moral system, he thinks it's totally ok to kill - it has become a part of his every day life. Carl is a child, he adapts differently to this new world than the adults do.
While the adults in the group still try to shape the world around them, the world still shapes Carl.
Agreed.
I think that Carl becoming a monster and Rick trying to deal with it is going to be the big thing next season.
I never suggested Hershel approved, but in that situation to paraphrase Glenn from the 2nd season: I'd rather he be alive and hating me than liking me and dead.
Carl's intentions are irrelevant to it being the right call... good intentions, road to hell and all that.
Facts remain, 1.) kid's finger is near the trigger during the whole exchange, 2.) he was part of the group that had just attacked friends and family, 3.) he didn't comply with the order to drop his weapon.
Shotgun kid was given more than enough leeway; three strikes and you're out.
Of course I also enjoyed all of season 2 because at the basic level I prefer character stories over constant action.
I totally agree. I found season 3 to be the weakest for my tasting, but I really liked the ending. Maybe except for Andrea dying, probably wanted her to have a chance for redemption with her group... I mean "real" redemption through actions. But whatever, she's gone... just like so many others I would have wanted to stay.
Season three finale just didn't match up with how it was supposed to. Also, AMC hyped it up too much, with the whole "28 deaths, and will leave people jaws dropped" when it wasn't that good. Milton's death was kinda stupid, considering his attempt to kill the Governor. Also, with Andrea taking her sweet time to get those pliers and having a joyful conversation with someone who is about to turn. Also, the Governor's shootout made little sense, and of course no one was able to kill him because he is immortal. Even Alan, who was aimed right at him, watched as Phillip pointed his gun at him and shot him in the head. Also, Andrea's death in general wasn't thrilling or intense, because not much was overall felt for the character; she made way too many mistakes, and not enough progress, and got killed because she was so slow.
Now the group has many old citizens and children that they have to provide for, since Phillip killed most of the able people. Also, with all the supplies Woodbury had, no supplies were brought back to the prison? What about the walkers that were inside the prison, how come none were seen inside the prison block? How did Glenn and Maggie kill no one of the mass of attackers?
Just too much didn't make sense or felt pointless, and I feel the only death that weighed on me was Milton's, and he died a pointless death.