More like a reasonable character to hate for the things he's done. The fucker even gives you attitude for being an inattentive arseface himself.
Yeah...
Ben: "I'm really doing the best I can here" (complaining voice)
Oh yes? You let Kenny get drunk and Clem leave the house, is that the best you got Ben... really? :mad:
He's just making stupid mistakes *hrrrghhhmm* Axe *hrrghhm* door handle.
Well... I guess inattentive describes him just fine.
Ben: "Fuck you Kenny!!! I'm so, SO sorry about Katjaa and Duck, I AM. And I know I screwed up, but stop pushing me around, and stop wishing I was dead! NO, you know how they died! At least you had them to lose. Do you get that? My parents, my little sister... I never made it home. They could be alive, or walkers, or WORSE and I DON'T KNOW, so give me a fucking break!"
When he says that to Ken, I just have to think "Hey Ben, did someone you trusted kill your family? Do you know their killer? Is that person acting like it doesn't matter, and that it's all cool? Do you have that killer with you in arm's reach, and are able to kill him when you so please? Is he running around getting others killed as well, and making excuses? Tell me Ben, how it matters about your family when at least they weren't lost to someone that is so close to you."
The kid seriously pisses me off every time he brings out that card, when Kenny saw them die, knows what happened to them, knows their killer, and has to deal with that person daily as he acts like it's no big deal. Don't get me wrong, after being mega angry with Ben my first playthrough, I warmed up to him better. I don't 'blame' him, but I feel he is somewhat responsible for a lot of the shit. I also hate how no matter what, he dies a pointless, meaningless death as he falls and is eaten by walkers. You could say he causes Kenny's death as well. Really aggravating.
Ben: "Fuck you Kenny!!! I'm so, SO sorry about Katjaa and Duck, I AM. And I know I screwed up, but stop pushing me around, and stop wishing I was dead! NO, you know how they died! At least you had them to lose. Do you get that? My parents, my little sister... I never made it home. They could be alive, or walkers, or WORSE and I DON'T KNOW, so give me a fucking break!"
When he says that to Ken, I just have to think "Hey Ben, did someone you trusted kill your family? Do you know their killer? Is that person acting like it doesn't matter, and that it's all cool? Do you have that killer with you in arm's reach, and are able to kill him when you so please? Is he running around getting others killed as well, and making excuses? Tell me Ben, how it matters about your family when at least they weren't lost to someone that is so close to you."
The kid seriously pisses me off every time he brings out that card, when Kenny saw them die, knows what happened to them, knows their killer, and has to deal with that person daily as he acts like it's no big deal. Don't get me wrong, after being mega angry with Ben my first playthrough, I warmed up to him better. I don't 'blame' him, but I feel he is somewhat responsible for a lot of the shit. I also hate how no matter what, he dies a pointless, meaningless death as he falls and is eaten by walkers. You could say he causes Kenny's death as well. Really aggravating.
Well said. For me, I have absolutely no sympathy for Ben when he used that as an excuse because it's no excuse at all. It just makes me dislike him more. He needs to stop acting like he's some special snowflake because he doesn't know what happened to his family. At the end of the day, everyone in the group was in that position to one extent or another.
Did Carley knew what happened to her family? Did Kenny knew what happened to his family besides Duck and Kat? And so on. Yet, the rest of them didn't go around betraying the group, neglecting their basic responsibilities, and acting like dumb shits.
And telling someone to chill off because they at least have a family to lose and knowing how they died is pretty fucking twisted. And considering Ben knows he's the cause of so many deaths, it's even dumber that he doesn't accept the fact Kenny has the right to be mad at him. The fact that Ben basically wanted Kenny to go "it's cool bro" and give him a break after confessing is stupid.
Ben didn't kill anyone, a zombie bit Duck and Katjaa killed herself and all he asked kenny was to give him a break, and you should blame Christa if you aren't gonna blame Clementine for running away from the house to find lee because she knew that Ben was supposed to be looking after Clementine not Omid, sure he made mistakes but you are really going overboard blaming ben for everything bad that happened
More like a reasonable character to hate for the things he's done. The fucker even gives you attitude for being an inattentive arseface himself.
Honestly I think the worst was this:
Ben: "It's eating me up knowing what I know.."
Lee: "Look man, that's a bad idea. Real, real bad."
Ben: "Maybe you're okay with having someone's blood on your hands but that's not who I am."
It's made all the worse because he knows Lee is a convicted killer, it was a real low blow. All I was trying to do was tell him that it was a bad idea, Kenny would literally kill him if he told him that. But no, I'm the asshole...
All I was trying to do was tell him that it was a bad idea, Kenny would literally kill him if he told him that. But no, I'm the asshole...
I don't know about you, but facing imminent danger during a life and death situation is really the only time I can properly reveal a traumatic confession to people I wronged.
Ben didn't kill anyone, a zombie bit Duck and Katjaa killed herself and all he asked kenny was to give him a break, and you should blame Christa if you aren't gonna blame Clementine for running away from the house to find lee because she knew that Ben was supposed to be looking after Clementine not Omid, sure he made mistakes but you are really going overboard blaming ben for everything bad that happened
Since you replied immediately after me, I'm assuming you are addressing my post. If that's the case, I suggest you read it again.
How exactly did I go "overboard" and why are we dragging Christa into this when we are talking about Ben?
Like Ben all you want, but it doesn't change the points I've raised:
Ben betrayed the group? Check.
Ben neglected his responsibilities? Check.
Ben acted like an idiot? Check.
Ben's actions led to the deaths of many? Check.
Ben assuming Kenny would give him a free pass after admitting he royally screwed over his family and the whole group? Check.
There is no going overboard here. I am stating what happened in the game.
And frankly, the last point is a big reason why Ben gets no sympathy from me. You can defend Ben all you want, but Ben himself admits to the guilt. As the saying goes, a guilty conscience needs no accuser. So he admits his guilt, and what? He expects Kenny to let him off the hook like nothing has happened? That's ridiculous.
And people often raise the point that Ben never had someone to advise him, for him to confide in. Guess what? He asked Lee what to do, and Lee tells him to keep his mouth shut till the group is in a safe place and in a calm situation before letting Kenny know. And guess what? Ben decides to let Kenny know when he's already in the middle of a stressed out situation. And he wants someone in that state of mind to just give him a break?
At least Ben admited his mistakes and is grateful if you're nice to him, unlike most of the characters in the game. *coffKennycoff*Lilly*coffLarrycoff*
Blaming everything on Ben is a mistake. By making the deal with the bandits, he buyed time for the group. Sure, it wasn't his main reason for doing so, but he still did it. As others said, Duck was bit, and that nearly happened a few times before. Katjaa kiling herself is only her fault. He screwed up in the street, but he isn't responsible for Chuck's death. The old man made an heroic choice, but I'm pretty sure he could have survived by just running away. He told Clem to stay put while he watched over Omid, and it's her choice to leave the mansion. He royally screwed up in Crawford, both because of the hatchet and by telling everything to Kenny. Hopefully, only Brie died, and not even Vernon cared about her.
Since you replied immediately after me, I'm assuming you are addressing my post. If that's the case, I suggest you read it again.
How exactly did I go "overboard" and why are we dragging Christa into this when we are talking about Ben?
Like Ben all you want, but it doesn't change the points I've raised:
Ben betrayed the group? Check.
Ben neglected his responsibilities? Check.
Ben acted like an idiot? Check.
Ben's actions led to the deaths of many? Check.
Ben assuming Kenny would give him a free pass after admitting he royally screwed over his family and the whole group? Check.
There is no going overboard here. I am stating what happened in the game.
And frankly, the last point is a big reason why Ben gets no sympathy from me. You can defend Ben all you want, but Ben himself admits to the guilt. As the saying goes, a guilty conscience needs no accuser. So he admits his guilt, and what? He expects Kenny to let him off the hook like nothing has happened? That's ridiculous.
And people often raise the point that Ben never had someone to advise him, for him to confide in. Guess what? He asked Lee what to do, and Lee tells him to keep his mouth shut till the group is in a safe place and in a calm situation before letting Kenny know. And guess what? Ben decides to let Kenny know when he's already in the middle of a stressed out situation. And he wants someone in that state of mind to just give him a break?
no i was addressing the ben hate in general if i was responding to you i would have quoted you
you and a lot of other people seem to be forgetting who the bad guys were and they were the bandits, sure they were not very well explored as a group narratively speaking but they were the bad guys
ben was conned by the bandits. check bandits fault.
ben running from zombies leaving clementine was definitely a mistake, but who expected ben to be a hero it's not like he picked clementine up and threw her to the zombies he just ran out of blind fear.
ben was taken away from his responsibilities (looking after clementine in the house) by a woman worried for her boyfriend. check Christa and ben's fault.
ben acted like an idiot(assuming you are talking about the hatchet) check.
miscommunication, Lee should have told people that the zombies had zoned in on where they were and that the hatchet was there for a reason, because obviously the zombies weren't at the door when he took the hatchet.
Ben's actions led to the deaths of many. check bandits, zombies and suicide
and the last one is admitting your mistakes which is a good thing to do, and also people feel guilty for things they aren't directly responsible for all the time it doesn't mean they are guilty, and as i said he just asked kenny to give him a break not assuming he would get a free pass, imagine if kenny had been giving Lee a hard time since he found out he was a murderer i would imaging lee would want him to give him a break.
and that is why i said people were going overboard
Honestly Ben does deserve some blame for the things he's done, but I always feel people blame him too much for the things he's done. There are multiple reasons why I do not think he deserves all the blame and I'll go through each reason with each "Ben" incident.
The first thing Ben gets a lot of blame for is the whole bandit deal, which leads to everyone getting into the RV Duck being bitten, Lilly snapping, and all madness ensuing. Though honestly I believe you can only partly blame Ben for the events that transpire after the bandits attack. Let's look at the facts. At the beginning of episode 3 when Lee and Kenny were heading back to the motor inn you can see arrows sticking out of the wall, so this shows the bandits had attacked the motor inn group previously to what success we do not know. But we do know they stopped after Ben started trading them supplies. Now I do admit Ben should have told someone about the whole deal he had going with the bandits, but you think you could in a tense situation like the one in the Zombie apocalypse. As well if Ben hadn't been trading supplies how long do you think the motor inn group would really last against the bandits. It was basically a prison woodbury type deal. The bandits outnumbered and outgunned the motor inn group ten to one. So in reality all Ben did was delay the inevitable, and if the bandits attacked on there own will the damage could have been a lot worse, in the case of when they attacked the motor inn in the game they were taken a bit by surprise when Lilly shot one, Carly/Doug shot another or two other, and you shot the third.
Now after the motor inn attack Lilly snaps and she shoots either Carly or Doug, now this I firmly believe is not Ben's fault. The motor inn incident may have been Lilly's breaking point but it was still up to her to keep her cool and not go and blindly shoot people that she though were guilty. People have control over than own Choices and Lilly knew what she was doing when she made her choice to take the shot.
This all leads up to the point were it's revealed Duck is bit, and while I admit I do put a little blame on Ben here I don't put all of it on him. The bite happened during the motor inn attack, though if the bandits attacked at any other time if Ben had not been trading with them The results could have also lead to Duck's death.
Now finally Katjaa shoots herself which I'm sorry, but that's all on her. Suicides is a selfish thing to do and I would not put any of the blame here on Ben whatsoever.
Now moving onto episode four more things unfold the first being Ben leaving Clem on the streets. Now I don't believe this was malicious, but if Clem got hurt I would blame Ben completely for it. I do believe Ben was just attacking upon pure fear, because as he states multiple times in the episode that is his worst fear in the, being eaten alive that is, luckily though Clem didn't get hurt, but I was still dissapointed in Ben. Though I do blame the developers a little for Chuck's death, because we never got the choice to help him, but meh.
A situation I see a lot of people blame Ben for is letting Clem out of his sight so she could run off. Now I just find this crazy, and find it hard to understand why this is Ben's fault. As both Ben and Clem put it Christa asked for Ben's help to move Omid upstairs. I mean I suppose he could say "Nope not gonna help you drag yo boyfriend upstairs but I have to watch Clem." As well it's lucky Clem did escape because if she hadn't someone probably would have died. Either Molly would kill Lee, Lee would shoot Molly(Which it looks like he was going to do before Clem found him), or Molly would have left Kenny and Lee (if Lee didn't shoot Molly). So yeah.
The final Ben type scenario is when he moves the axe from the door. Now I do say that was dumb of him to remove something that was clearly keeping the doors close though at the time he took the axe there were probably no dead there at the door anymore so he thought the axe was just there. Now I just blame this on Ben's stupidity.
All this leads up to a conclusion where you choose to either drop Ben or pull him up. Now it seems the main reason the developers tried to make Ben such a mess up is so in this situation it would test you to see if you were like crawford and would let your weakest link go. Though yeah this is my opinion on Ben
Ben was an idiot to keep the deal secret. Sure Lilly was a bit unhinged, but all Ben needed to do was tell the group BEFORE he resorted to stealing. I, personally, would have agreed to the deal, because as a group, everyone is in it together. Planning on using supplies that you don't have coul have resulted in someone's death, especially since it was meds he was taking. Duck's death is all on him, and Katjaa's to an extent. Ben says so himself. Who knows, the motel may ahve been able to hold out, since nobody had died or been wounded in the previous firefights. But who was on watch when the bandits finally did breach the perimeter? Ben. And Clem has a handgun trained on the back of her head because of that. We're just lucky that the guy's trigger finger wasn't starting to twitch. Even luckier still that they didn't decide to take Clem with them for a bargaining chip. Remember what happened to Jolene's daughter?
Not saving Clem in the street was cowardly. All he had to do was grab her hand and run. He got the running part down. Hell, he did THAT part so well he might have set a record in short distance sprinting. But he left Clem after explicitly being told to help her, and the look on his face even shows that he's making the decision to leave her. Sure he feels like shit, but he still left her. Then Chuck had to come in and save the day. All Ben had to do was grab Clem's wrist before he bolted and Chuck would still be alive.
Crawford is where Ben really "shines" so to speak. He takes the hatchet out of te handles of a door that was A) covered in blood, the same door they had fled through to escape walkers from earlier, and C) that was held shut by the VERY SAME HATCHET that he gave Lee back at the mansion. That leads to Molly and Lee having to fight the walkers, where Molly can get left behind. Then, he confesses to killing Kenny's family while the entire group is trapped in a room with walkers blocking the only way out that they have at the moment. Walkers that he let in. And then Brie dies. That's on Ben too. Not Kenny, or Brie, or Lee, but Ben. Everyone knew what would happen if Kenny found out, but Ben just couldn't hold it in for five more goddamn minutes.
And as for him blowing up on Kenny, looking back, it was kind of a douche thing for him to do. I'm glad Kenny forgave him and all, but he still expects Kenny to back off about Ben being responsible for the deaths of his wife and child literally a couple days after they died in front of his eyes, and about 12 hours after actually finding out it was Ben. Just because "you had your family, and you got to see them die" is true, while Ben doesn't know what happened to his family, he has hope. He still has something to live for. He took Kenny's hope, his reason for living, away from him.
After all that, I'm not saying Ben is a bad person. I think that he's actually a good person, but just royally screwed up along the way. He most certainly deserves the hate that he gets, because his human body count is second only to Lee's. Ben caused a lot of pain and death in his time with the group. Hell, things were relatively stable until he joined. We've witnessed the "Ben Effect" kill almost as many people as the walkers...
Ben was an idiot to keep the deal secret. Sure Lilly was a bit unhinged, but all Ben needed to do was tell the group BEFORE he resorted to stealing. I, personally, would have agreed to the deal, because as a group, everyone is in it together. Planning on using supplies that you don't have coul have resulted in someone's death, especially since it was meds he was taking. Duck's death is all on him, and Katjaa's to an extent. Ben says so himself. Who knows, the motel may ahve been able to hold out, since nobody had died or been wounded in the previous firefights. But who was on watch when the bandits finally did breach the perimeter? Ben. And Clem has a handgun trained on the back of her head because of that. We're just lucky that the guy's trigger finger wasn't starting to twitch. Even luckier still that they didn't decide to take Clem with them for a bargaining chip. Remember what happened to Jolene's daughter?
how was it all on him? this is why i say people are forgetting about the bandits, because if the bandits hadn't conned ben and hadn't attacked the group the group would have been fine (except for the slowly starving to death part) we can't just ignore what the bandits do just because they aren't part of the group and are just bad people, also the bandits clearly could have killed the entire group if they hadn't fled, it is ridiculous to think they had a chance being so outnumbered and outgunned
Ben was an idiot to keep the deal secret. Sure Lilly was a bit unhinged, but all Ben needed to do was tell the group BEFORE he resorted to stealing. I, personally, would have agreed to the deal, because as a group, everyone is in it together. Planning on using supplies that you don't have coul have resulted in someone's death, especially since it was meds he was taking. Duck's death is all on him, and Katjaa's to an extent. Ben says so himself. Who knows, the motel may ahve been able to hold out, since nobody had died or been wounded in the previous firefights. But who was on watch when the bandits finally did breach the perimeter? Ben. And Clem has a handgun trained on the back of her head because of that. We're just lucky that the guy's trigger finger wasn't starting to twitch. Even luckier still that they didn't decide to take Clem with them for a bargaining chip. Remember what happened to Jolene's daughter?
Not saving Clem in the street was cowardly. All he had to do was grab her hand and run. He got the running part down. Hell, he did THAT part so well he might have set a record in short distance sprinting. But he left Clem after explicitly being told to help her, and the look on his face even shows that he's making the decision to leave her. Sure he feels like shit, but he still left her. Then Chuck had to come in and save the day. All Ben had to do was grab Clem's wrist before he bolted and Chuck would still be alive.
Crawford is where Ben really "shines" so to speak. He takes the hatchet out of te handles of a door that was A) covered in blood, the same door they had fled through to escape walkers from earlier, and C) that was held shut by the VERY SAME HATCHET that he gave Lee back at the mansion. That leads to Molly and Lee having to fight the walkers, where Molly can get left behind. Then, he confesses to killing Kenny's family while the entire group is trapped in a room with walkers blocking the only way out that they have at the moment. Walkers that he let in. And then Brie dies. That's on Ben too. Not Kenny, or Brie, or Lee, but Ben. Everyone knew what would happen if Kenny found out, but Ben just couldn't hold it in for five more goddamn minutes.
And as for him blowing up on Kenny, looking back, it was kind of a douche thing for him to do. I'm glad Kenny forgave him and all, but he still expects Kenny to back off about Ben being responsible for the deaths of his wife and child literally a couple days after they died in front of his eyes, and about 12 hours after actually finding out it was Ben. Just because "you had your family, and you got to see them die" is true, while Ben doesn't know what happened to his family, he has hope. He still has something to live for. He took Kenny's hope, his reason for living, away from him.
After all that, I'm not saying Ben is a bad person. I think that he's actually a good person, but just royally screwed up along the way. He most certainly deserves the hate that he gets, because his human body count is second only to Lee's. Ben caused a lot of pain and death in his time with the group. Hell, things were relatively stable until he joined. We've witnessed the "Ben Effect" kill almost as many people as the walkers...
I do agree Ben's plans should have been told to the group, but who knows how everyone would take it. I have no doubt if he told Lilly she would kick him out which is probably what he was most afraid of. And as I said Katjaa may have been distraught, but what she did was selfish, and was on her. She still had Kenny in her life, but she chose to end it. As well with the bandits I highly doubt that the motor inn group could hold. They were running low on supplies, sooner or later the bandits would either make the final attack or try to starve them out, I'm thinking they would probably do an all out attack. Yes no one died in previous firefights, but from the looks of it the previous fights probably weren't that large probably just skirmishes. On the topic of Ben's watch. What most likely happened is he probably saw a bandit and figured they were picking up the supplies but when they didn't get any they probably jumped over and probably pointed the gun at either Katjaa's or Kenny's head since they were the closest to the wall.
Yes as I said before I was dissapointed with Ben for not taking Clem or doing anything to help her which ultimately lead to Chuck's death(which I figured would happen sooner or later). As I said before though this was his number 1 fear. I honestly don't know how people react to their inner-most fears, but it probably isn't the easiest.
Yes I call it common ignorance though the zombies had to have been gone when Ben took the hatchet, and honestly that whole scene gets me. Because when Ben comes out of the room the zombies are still gone, but then out of nowhere they all appear. i don't know something just feels wrong about that scene though it was probably just an attempt on the developers part to make the player hate Ben more (which honestly I do feel like the game makers were trying there best this episode to make Ben look the worse they could possibly make him look). And Ben's outburst was probably unneeded but again I have no idea what that type of guilt feels like when it builds up. And Brie dying well not much of a shock I knew she was going to die at some point in the episode.
And Ben's speech honestly in my opinion made a lot of sense and probably was needed. As Christa said "Let him." and in the attic she even says that it was good of him to stand up to Kenny. Luckily the speech seemed to touch something in Kenny, but yeah. As well who knows if Ben had hope. Maybe he did maybe he didn't, but the point he had was you got to see your family in your last moments. I may never be able to, and in fact he never does.
no i was addressing the ben hate in general if i was responding to you i would have quoted you
I see. It just seems you were addressing me directly since you said "you are really going overboard blaming ben for everything bad that happened" right after my post. But whatever.
you and a lot of other people seem to be forgetting who the bad guys were and they were the bandits, sure they were not very well explored as a group narratively speaking but they were the bad guys
ben was conned by the bandits. check bandits fault.
I seriously doubt many people wouldn't consider the bandits bad guys. However, Ben must also take personal responsibility for betraying the group and contributing to the bandit attack.
Let's use a real life analogy. Benedict Arnold is a famous traitor in the United States for trying to betray the Revolution by letting the British into West Point. Many Americans then and now simply wouldn't say: "It's not really Benedict's Arnold's fault, because the British were the bad guys! He was just conned by the British!" Yeah, the British were the enemy, but Arnold had to accept the consequences of his decision.
Likewise, were the bandits bad people, the enemy? Yes. But did Ben's actions facilitate their attack? Yes. Thus, he needs to be held responsible to this his actions.
as i said he just asked kenny to give him a break not assuming he would get a free pass, imagine if kenny had been giving Lee a hard time since he found out he was a murderer i would imaging lee would want him to give him a break.
You do realize there's a major difference between Kenny knowing Lee killed some politician with no personal connection to Kenny versus Ben admitting to Kenny that he was responsible for getting his family killed?
The bandits outnumbered and outgunned the motor inn group ten to one. So in reality all Ben did was delay the inevitable, and if the bandits attacked on there own will the damage could have been a lot worse, in the case of when they attacked the motor inn in the game they were taken a bit by surprise when Lilly shot one, Carly/Doug shot another or two other, and you shot the third.
What makes you so certain that that the bandits would overwhelm the inn in an all out attack if Ben didn't do the trade?
The bandits' track record isn't all that impressive either. For example, in episode two, the bandits failed to kill Lee and Mark despite catching them off guard, outnumbering the two, and having tactical advantages over them. In fact, a simple flanking manoeuvre would have finished off the two, but the bandits simply sit back and yell like morons and shoot like a bunch of dimwits. These are people who have pathetic tactical acumen and are merely a mob with guns who would have trouble dealing with a determined resistance.
Let's consider the off-screen attacks on the motor inn as well. Maybe they are large scale shootouts or maybe they were skirmishes. We don't know. What we do know is that the lookout position for the motor inn survivors is a really, really bad spot. The top of the RV is completely exposed, and basically anyone hiding in the woods in front of the inn could have easily shot and killed the lookout. This didn't happen, which again suggests the bandits are thugs who suck at actual combat.
Now let's look at the final attack. Thanks to the group letting their guard down because of Ben, the bandits managed to swarm the inn and take hostages. They had the advantage, but they completely lost the initiative. They didn't even see Lilly flanking them and getting the high ground despite, if you look at the inn, very limited ways for Lilly to do so. So despite outnumbering the group and having all the initial advantages, the bandits were already getting their asses whooped by the motor inn survivors before the walkers show up.
Base on these dismal performances, I'd say the group could've handle the bandits if they launched an all out attack had they not let their guard down.
Now after the motor inn attack Lilly snaps and she shoots either Carly or Doug, now this I firmly believe is not Ben's fault. The motor inn incident may have been Lilly's breaking point but it was still up to her to keep her cool and not go and blindly shoot people that she though were guilty. People have control over than own Choices and Lilly knew what she was doing when she made her choice to take the shot.
Of course Lilly is responsible for her actions, but so is Ben. He did not confess before things really escalated, and this led to the death of an innocent person.
Yeah, sure Ben was probably scared about the consequences because he's just a coward, but that's no excuse. It's like a murderer watching an innocent person being falsely accused and keeping his mouth shut to avoid the punishment. Not cool.
Now finally Katjaa shoots herself which I'm sorry, but that's all on her. Suicides is a selfish thing to do and I would not put any of the blame here on Ben whatsoever.
While I really dislike Ben, I definitely understand others have to take personal responsibility. Katjaa had to take some responsibility for basically abandoning Kenny to deal with both her suicide and Duck's death, but in all fairness, Katjaa wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind considering the circumstances. At the same time, I still say Ben needs to take partial blame for having a very direct role in creating the circumstances for Katjaa to commit suicide.
All this leads up to a conclusion where you choose to either drop Ben or pull him up. Now it seems the main reason the developers tried to make Ben such a mess up is so in this situation it would test you to see if you were like crawford and would let your weakest link go. Though yeah this is my opinion on Ben
This is a really good point actually, though personally, I didn't see it as letting the weakest link go. I would've done everything I could to help if, for example, Duck or Molly's sister was in life-or-death situation as a member of my group. I let Ben go because he had a hand in the deaths of all the other characters, so yeah, retribution.
how was it all on him? this is why i say people are forgetting about the bandits, because if the bandits hadn't conned ben and hadn't attacked the group the group would have been fine (except for the slowly starving to death part) we can't just ignore what the bandits do just because they aren't part of the group and are just bad people, also the bandits clearly could have killed the entire group if they hadn't fled, it is ridiculous to think they had a chance being so outnumbered and outgunned
Duck's death is on him because he kept the secret from the grup, wich caused everyone to lower their guard. He's the one that let the bandits into the motel, remember? They were inside and had EVERYONE at gunpoint within seconds. The situation only went to hell after the bandits got past the barricade, and if someone COMPETENT, like Lee, Lilly, Kenny, or Carley had been on watch, they never would have made it across the street before being spotted. Because of Ben's deal, he assumed they came to pick up the meds. He let them close enough to take the group by surprise. They got in, and snce nobody was ready for the bandit attack, the rest of the bandits were able to zerg rush into the motel before anyone could do anything about it. The walkers came immediately after them, and the only reason Duck, Kat, and Clem couldn't get to safety because they were pinned dwn by the bandits Ben let in. The walker got close enough and bit Duck. If the bandits hadn't been let in, all they could do was shoot arrows at the walls. As long as everyone was inside, they were safe until Ben screwed everyone over.
I see. It just seems you were addressing me directly since you said "you are really going overboard blaming ben for everything bad that happened" right after my post. But whatever.
I seriously doubt many people wouldn't consider the bandits bad guys. However, Ben must also take personal responsibility for betraying the group and contributing to the bandit attack.
Let's use a real life analogy. Benedict Arnold is a famous traitor in the United States for trying to betray the Revolution by letting the British into West Point. Many Americans then and now simply wouldn't say: "It's not really Benedict's Arnold's fault, because the British were the bad guys! He was just conned by the British!" Yeah, the British were the enemy, but Arnold had to accept the consequences of his decision.
Likewise, were the bandits bad people, the enemy? Yes. But did Ben's actions facilitate their attack? Yes. Thus, he needs to be held responsible to this his actions.
You do realize there's a major difference between Kenny knowing Lee killed some politician with no personal connection to Kenny versus Ben admitting to Kenny that he was responsible for getting his family killed?
well maybe i should have said "you lot" or something more obviously directed and a group of people but i really do quote people if i am directly responding to them.
I don't know the story of this benedict arnold character so i can't really know what you are trying to say, but Ben didn't let the bandits in the back door so they could attack the group, from what i can make out as to what happened with ben and the bandits was that Ben was approached while he was on his own and they convinced him that if he did a favor for them (giving them some supplies) they would release one of his friends that they had captured, this went on and on until ben realised he had been conned but by then it was already too late and he was in and ongoing situation of him dropping off supplies to the bandits or they would kill the group.
my point was about giving someone a hard time, it doesn't matter what the reasons are you shouldn't pick on somebody and give them a hard time (which kenny was doing to ben even before he knew about the bandit situation) so it doesn't matter about the difference between lee being a convicted murderer and ben stealing supplies, the point is that anybody who is being picked on deserves a break.
Duck's death is on him because he kept the secret from the grup, wich caused everyone to lower their guard. He's the one that let the bandits into the motel, remember? They were inside and had EVERYONE at gunpoint within seconds. The situation only went to hell after the bandits got past the barricade, and if someone COMPETENT, like Lee, Lilly, Kenny, or Carley had been on watch, they never would have made it across the street before being spotted. Because of Ben's deal, he assumed they came to pick up the meds. He let them close enough to take the group by surprise. They got in, and snce nobody was ready for the bandit attack, the rest of the bandits were able to zerg rush into the motel before anyone could do anything about it. The walkers came immediately after them, and the only reason Duck, Kat, and Clem couldn't get to safety because they were pinned dwn by the bandits Ben let in. The walker got close enough and bit Duck. If the bandits hadn't been let in, all they could do was shoot arrows at the walls. As long as everyone was inside, they were safe until Ben screwed everyone over.
so as i said that was the bandits fault not bens, you know because they were the bad guys attacking the group, and what do you think carly lilly kenny or lee could have done about an ambush? i have explained in another post about how easy it would be to sneak up on the motel (from the sides not from the woods and across the road) which was only barricaded enough to deter zombies, but basically all they would have to do is sneak up behind the wall and pop their heads up with guns out and they instantly have everybody on the parking lot covered and one person on top of the RV couldn't have done anything about that unless they wanted everybody with guns pointed at their head to be killed
What makes you so certain that that the bandits would overwhelm the inn in an all out attack if Ben didn't do the trade?
..
The bandits' track record isn't all that impressive either. For example, in episode two, the bandits failed to kill Lee and Mark despite catching them off guard, outnumbering the two, and having tactical advantages over them. In fact, a simple flanking manoeuvre would have finished off the two, but the bandits simply sit back and yell like morons and shoot like a bunch of dimwits. These are people who have pathetic tactical acumen and are merely a mob with guns who would have trouble dealing with a determined resistance.
Let's consider the off-screen attacks on the motor inn as well. Maybe they are large scale shootouts or maybe they were skirmishes. We don't know. What we do know is that the lookout position for the motor inn survivors is a really, really bad spot. The top of the RV is completely exposed, and basically anyone hiding in the woods in front of the inn could have easily shot and killed the lookout. This didn't happen, which again suggests the bandits are thugs who suck at actual combat.
Now let's look at the final attack. Thanks to the group letting their guard down because of Ben, the bandits managed to swarm the inn and take hostages. They had the advantage, but they completely lost the initiative. They didn't even see Lilly flanking them and getting the high ground despite, if you look at the inn, very limited ways for Lilly to do so. So despite outnumbering the group and having all the initial advantages, the bandits were already getting their asses whooped by the motor inn survivors before the walkers show up.
Base on these dismal performances, I'd say the group could've handle the bandits if they launched an all out attack had they not let their guard down.
Of course Lilly is responsible for her actions, but so is Ben. He did not confess before things really escalated, and this led to the death of an innocent person.
Yeah, sure Ben was probably scared about the consequences because he's just a coward, but that's no excuse. It's like a murderer watching an innocent person being falsely accused and keeping his mouth shut to avoid the punishment. Not cool.
While I really dislike Ben, I definitely understand others have to take personal responsibility. Katjaa had to take some responsibility for basically abandoning Kenny to deal with both her suicide and Duck's death, but in all fairness, Katjaa wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind considering the circumstances. At the same time, I still say Ben needs to take partial blame for having a very direct role in creating the circumstances for Katjaa to commit suicide.
This is a really good point actually, though personally, I didn't see it as letting the weakest link go. I would've done everything I could to help if, for example, Duck or Molly's sister was in life-or-death situation as a member of my group. I let Ben go because he had a hand in the deaths of all the other characters, so yeah, retribution.
I hate it when your long post doesn't post -_-, so you have to retype everything again.
The reason I think the bandits would sooner or later overrun the motor inn group is because they basically had more numbers, guns, and supplies than the motor inn group. Yes there track record is not good they don't seem the best at combat, but let's look at it like Woodbury v. the prison. The govener basically got everyone in Woodbury to attack the prison, non of them with much of any combat training, yet they still manage to succeed in killing almost all of Rick's group.
On the Lilly subject yes Ben could have confessed, but I still put most of the blame on Lilly I don't care if she was becoming unhinged she still killed a member of the group. The worst part is she did so before the entire group got to vote taking action into her own hands. This is what really makes it her fault rather than waiting for Kenny or Katjaa's opinion she just goes right out and kills either Carly or tries to kill Ben, but Doug saves him.
Honestly if anything Ben had an indirect role in Katjaa's death because a map of the events would look like so:
Ben steal's supplies-> Bandits attack->zombies attack and bite Duck-> Lilly goes insane and murders someone-> Katjaa kills herself -> Duck dies.
Maybe you thought of it as retribution, but I do remember telltale or someone saying that's how they made decision to seem like a crawford situation, and the aftermath makes it even seem like that more. The entire game it seems like the game is showing crawford is not the way, and so after you make the Ben decision it seems like the game tries to punish you by Kenny implying what you did in front of everyone even clem, and it seems like everyone knows what you did at that point. As well in my eyes the whole Situation is basically if you let him go it's basically murder. This is the first time Lee has had direct control over whether a group member would live or die. Honestly I find dropping Ben no different then Lilly shooting Doug or Carly, both are murder that was not needed.
The reason I think the bandits would sooner or later overrun the motor inn group is because they basically had more numbers, guns, and supplies than the motor inn group. Yes there track record is not good they don't seem the best at combat, but let's look at it like Woodbury v. the prison. The govener basically got everyone in Woodbury to attack the prison, non of them with much of any combat training, yet they still manage to succeed in killing almost all of Rick's group.
But that's my point: all the extra manpower, ammo, and supplies basically counted for nothing during all those encounters I've listed.
Comic spoilers ahead for everyone else....
I also don't think the comparison to the Woodbury army is fair. Let's keep in mind Rick's outnumbered group successfully repelled the first attack which included Woodbury bringing in a tank.
It was only later, during the next attack, that the Governor defeated Rick's group after a good number (including the best fighters like Andrea and Glenn) of Rick's group lost their nerves and walked off on him between the two attacks. It was only after being severely depleted of both manpower and quality fighters did the Prison fall.
Back to the game, we should also keep in mind we really don't know how many people were part of the bandits. I think it's probably safe to assume it's not a huge group to the extent of Woodbury's army considering we do know that the majority of bandits are former Save-Lot employees.
Another important thing to keep in mind is that being outnumbered doesn't mean as much for a defending force as it is for an attacking force. It's conventional military wisdom that, all other factors being equal, the attacking force needs to outnumber fortified defenders 3 to 1 for a realistic chance of success. This is especially relevant in basically "simple" fights like the one at the inn.
This is due to the fact people attacking tend to have a lot more to worry about and being forced to move into the open. This is evidenced by the fact in game that it really only took Carley, Lilly, and Lee to more or less take cover in their positions and gun down the bandits who, conversely, had to cut across the road and scramble over the wall before they are in a position to shoot back.
While the Woodbury army may have been able to mobilize way more people, as far as I can tell during the final attack, I'm not sure the game's bandits managed to even reached that ratio (at least, it wasn't extremely lopsided). Regardless, the fact of the matter is the bandits were already losing by the time the walkers showed up mainly due to their own ineptitude to take advantage of their initial success.
On the Lilly subject yes Ben could have confessed, but I still put most of the blame on Lilly I don't care if she was becoming unhinged she still killed a member of the group. The worst part is she did so before the entire group got to vote taking action into her own hands. This is what really makes it her fault rather than waiting for Kenny or Katjaa's opinion she just goes right out and kills either Carly or tries to kill Ben, but Doug saves him.
I definitely placed most of the blame on Lilly as well, but I also see Ben need to take responsibility for not confessing when he should have. Anyway, it sounds like we are on the same page here.
But that's my point: all the extra manpower, ammo, and supplies basically counted for nothing during all those encounters I've listed.
Comic spoilers ahead for everyone else....
I also don't think the comparison to the Woodbury army is fair. Let's keep in mind Rick's outnumbered group successfully repelled the first attack which included Woodbury bringing in a tank.
It was only later, during the next attack, that the Governor defeated Rick's group after a good number (including the best fighters like Andrea and Glenn) of Rick's group lost their nerves and walked off on him between the two attacks. It was only after being severely depleted of both manpower and quality fighters did the Prison fall.
Back to the game, we should also keep in mind we really don't know how many people were part of the bandits. I think it's probably safe to assume it's not a huge group to the extent of Woodbury's army considering we do know that the majority of bandits are former Save-Lot employees.
Another important thing to keep in mind is that being outnumbered doesn't mean as much for a defending force as it is for an attacking force. It's conventional military wisdom that, all other factors being equal, the attacking force needs to outnumber fortified defenders 3 to 1 for a realistic chance of success. This is especially relevant in basically "simple" fights like the one at the inn.
This is due to the fact people attacking tend to have a lot more to worry about and being forced to move into the open. This is evidenced by the fact in game that it really only took Carley, Lilly, and Lee to more or less take cover in their positions and gun down the bandits who, conversely, had to cut across the road and scramble over the wall before they are in a position to shoot back.
While the Woodbury army may have been able to mobilize way more people, as far as I can tell during the final attack, I'm not sure the game's bandits managed to even reached that ratio (at least, it wasn't extremely lopsided). Regardless, the fact of the matter is the bandits were already losing by the time the walkers showed up mainly due to their own ineptitude to take advantage of their initial success.
I definitely placed most of the blame on Lilly as well, but I also see Ben need to take responsibility for not confessing when he should have. Anyway, it sounds like we are on the same page here.
I've basically said the same thing about the bandits. Given the appearance of the motel's wall (it's riddled with bullet holes and crossbow bolts), the bandits were evidently never even able to breach it until Ben basically layed out a welcome mat; even then, it seems like they were content to just try and come through the gate (rather than create more than one breach).
I think I even mentioned the conventional wisdom that attackers typically need a 3 to 1 advantage to have decent odds of success, everything else being equal.
It's notable that even in the one bandit attack that managed to get through the gate (due to Ben's crapulence), they still failed to kill anyone once the bullets started flying. All they did was pin themselves between an armed group and a pack of zombies coming through the woods
The bandits really seemed to kinda take their cues from Zap Brannigan's Big Book of War, and even then it appears that their copy had missing pages.
If anything shouldn't we blame Kenny? Yes Ben could have confessed and it would be all fine and dandy if Lilly wasn't such a crazy mo-fo'. However cast your mind back to Episode 2, how did she become so unhinged? Did someone just murder the only thing she has left in this world in cold blood as she watched? I think so.
Who did that? Kenny. In fact most of the things in the game are Kenny's fault, if he helped save Shawn the group could potentially have stayed on the farm as a reward and meet Rick and the others later, if Kenny had not killed Larry, Lilly would be fine and they could still have Carley/Doug and Lilly together in the group. Kenny chose to go to Savannah, in the first place. Kenny can be blamed for causing everyone's deaths. However that really isn't fair, I still blame him for the Lilly scenario and not saving Shawn.
If anything shouldn't we blame Kenny? Yes Ben could have confessed and it would be all fine and dandy if Lilly wasn't such a crazy mo-fo'. However cast your mind back to Episode 2, how did she become so unhinged? Did someone just murder the only thing she has left in this world in cold blood as she watched? I think so.
Who did that? Kenny. In fact most of the things in the game are Kenny's fault, if he helped save Shawn the group could potentially have stayed on the farm as a reward and meet Rick and the others later, if Kenny had not killed Larry, Lilly would be fine and they could still have Carley/Doug and Lilly together in the group. Kenny chose to go to Savannah, in the first place. Kenny can be blamed for causing everyone's deaths. However that really isn't fair, I still blame him for the Lilly scenario and not saving Shawn.
Partially agreed, but insanity is no excuse for murder. Lee had to kill his own zombified brother, but he didn't put a bullet in someone's head. Kenny watched his wife commit suicide and (determinant) killed his own son, yet he didn't kill anyone. Kenny has some fault for killing Larry, but Lilly also needed to maintain composure, or give up the leader position.
I felt Kenny's reasoning for killing Larry was justified, even though I didn't consent. I don't blame him for it, because if Larry had turned Lilly's feelings wouldn't have mattered, and everyone would have died besides for Carley and BEN, who caused her death in the first place.
Lilly still had no reason to kill Carley. So... Lee and Kenny kill her father, so she shoots a woman who didn't? Even if she blamed her for stealing supplies, there was no reason to 'open fire'.
Whether Kenny had 'caused' Shawn's death or not, Hershel still wouldn't have let them stay. In the comics, Hershel kicks Rick's group out, and in the show nearly does it as well. He never was a fan of strangers, and as Shawn said, "He just thinks having people around is worse than whatever's out there." However it was written...
Kenny made some mistakes, but he admitted to them, got over them, and got stronger. He didn't kill because he was broken, although if he was ALLOWED, he would have killed Ben. Had Lilly killed Kenny, I'd be shaken as to which side to take as that he has his own family to look after(a child mainly). Larry was pretty much dead either way, and although it wasn't the best way to do it, I feel Kenny did 'save' everyone at the meatlocker, and recklessly charging in at Andy was stupid, but he did distract him long enough for Lee and Carley/Doug to get him.
I'd say he does more good than bad, and I like his character. He and my Lee are best buds.
Anyway... this is a "Why do girls like Ben?" thread, not a "Why does Kenny deserve hate?" thread :P. Probably gonna get criticism for it too ^_^
I felt Kenny's reasoning for killing Larry was justified, even though I didn't consent. I don't blame him for it, because if Larry had turned Lilly's feelings wouldn't have mattered, and everyone would have died besides for Carley and BEN, who caused her death in the first place.
Lilly still had no reason to kill Carley. So... Lee and Kenny kill her father, so she shoots a woman who didn't? Even if she blamed her for stealing supplies, there was no reason to 'open fire'.
Whether Kenny had 'caused' Shawn's death or not, Hershel still wouldn't have let them stay. In the comics, Hershel kicks Rick's group out, and in the show nearly does it as well. He never was a fan of strangers, and as Shawn said, "He just thinks having people around is worse than whatever's out there." However it was written...
Kenny made some mistakes, but he admitted to them, got over them, and got stronger. He didn't kill because he was broken, although if he was ALLOWED, he would have killed Ben. Had Lilly killed Kenny, I'd be shaken as to which side to take as that he has his own family to look after(a child mainly). Larry was pretty much dead either way, and although it wasn't the best way to do it, I feel Kenny did 'save' everyone at the meatlocker, and recklessly charging in at Andy was stupid, but he did distract him long enough for Lee and Carley/Doug to get him.
I'd say he does more good than bad, and I like his character. He and my Lee are best buds.
Anyway... this is a "Why do girls like Ben?" thread, not a "Why does Kenny deserve hate?" thread :P. Probably gonna get criticism for it too ^_^
You're right, back on topic- I feel girls mainly like Ben because he's shy. They can easily relate their insecurities onto him and for some reason nowadays it seem girls are beginning to head towards the shy guys (Not Mario).
LOL!! Thats the funniest thing I've ever seen!!
Never found Ben the least bit attractive as a person he comes across as such a wimp
Not a very manly trait at all
I couldn't stand Ben's whiny ass. He was my least favorite character over all. He was a total wuss and continuously put everyone in danger or either directly or indirectly caused the deaths of most of my party. Ugh, I shoulda left him in the woods in his own beartrap.
You're right, back on topic- I feel girls mainly like Ben because he's shy. They can easily relate their insecurities onto him and for some reason nowadays it seem girls are beginning to head towards the shy guys (Not Mario).
Hmmm...well I'm shy and I never had a girl like me in my 27 years of living =/
Hmmm...well I'm shy and I never had a girl like me in my 27 years of living =/
Well, your romantic choices in a zombie apocalypse are drastically reduced... also Ben's mistakes forced him into the spotlight, where he had everyone's attention. That probably helped.
i think the reason why girls like ben so much is because
-ben made heaps of mistakes and everyone makes mistakes so maybe they feel like they have something in common
-he's reckless and almost always brings a torrent of things that make the game what it is (for example he invited the bandits over for afternoon tea which broke the last thread of lilly's logic)
im not meaning to be offensive to ben fans because ben is an okay kid but i always had the feeling that ben was subconsciously a secret spy for the zombies and was sabotaging and indirectly killing everyone he could.
im a girl but ben is average maybe if kenny shared a little bit of his magical moustache with ben he might have been able to help out lee's group rather than hinder it
LOL!! Thats the funniest thing I've ever seen!!
Never found Ben the least bit attractive as a person he comes across as such a wimp
Not a very manly trait at all
Well, your romantic choices in a zombie apocalypse are drastically reduced... also Ben's mistakes forced him into the spotlight, where he had everyone's attention. That probably helped.
So basically what Mornai is saying is, "Start a zombie apocalypse and the girls will be forced to be with you; there will be less to choose from." Either that or... "Be a clown."
Advice of wisdom I'm sure Mornai will flip now (trollololol)
So basically what Mornai is saying is, "Start a zombie apocalypse and the girls will be forced to be with you; there will be less to choose from." Either that or... "Be a clown."
Advice of wisdom I'm sure Mornai will flip now (trollololol)
They won't be forced, but your chances would probably be fairly decent, if you don't die of course. Look at Carley: she liked Doug, Lee and may have liked Ben eventually. That's half the unmarried male population in their group already!
As long as they don't find out you were the mad scientist who brought the zombies upon the earth, I'm sure you'll be fine.
They won't be forced, but your chances would probably be fairly decent, if you don't die of course. Look at Carley: she liked Doug, Lee and may have liked Ben eventually. That's half the unmarried male population in their group already!
As long as they don't find out you were the mad scientist who brought the zombies upon the earth, I'm sure you'll be fine.
Lol I was just joking around to piss ya off, Mornai ^_^. I have to agree that's true; they'll become desperate for a mate with so few options. 'Repopulate the Earth'! lol
I'm sure saving the girl's life multiple times would also improve your chances :P
Lol I was just joking around to piss ya off, Mornai ^_^. I have to agree that's true; they'll become desperate for a mate with so few options. 'Repopulate the Earth'! lol
I'm sure saving the girl's life multiple times would also improve your chances :P
It takes an extreme effort to anger me, and hopefully we don't see such efforts here. :eek:
You're not guaranteed to have the ladies swarming you if you're the only guy around, but at least they can't say "I can do better".
Ok, I was annoyed by all the stupid decisions he'd made throughout the game (giving stuff to the bandits, ditching Clem, taking the axe that was keeping the walkers out) but I was completely fed up when he decided to tell Kenny it was his fault Katja and Duck died at the shittiest time possible. I mean get a grip on yourself! He could have picked a better time to break the truth, preferably when we were not on the run from walkers and already fragmented as a group.
And there are plenty of cuter video game characters anyway...
Comments
Yeah...
Ben: "I'm really doing the best I can here" (complaining voice)
Oh yes? You let Kenny get drunk and Clem leave the house, is that the best you got Ben... really? :mad:
He's just making stupid mistakes *hrrrghhhmm* Axe *hrrghhm* door handle.
Well... I guess inattentive describes him just fine.
When he says that to Ken, I just have to think "Hey Ben, did someone you trusted kill your family? Do you know their killer? Is that person acting like it doesn't matter, and that it's all cool? Do you have that killer with you in arm's reach, and are able to kill him when you so please? Is he running around getting others killed as well, and making excuses? Tell me Ben, how it matters about your family when at least they weren't lost to someone that is so close to you."
The kid seriously pisses me off every time he brings out that card, when Kenny saw them die, knows what happened to them, knows their killer, and has to deal with that person daily as he acts like it's no big deal. Don't get me wrong, after being mega angry with Ben my first playthrough, I warmed up to him better. I don't 'blame' him, but I feel he is somewhat responsible for a lot of the shit. I also hate how no matter what, he dies a pointless, meaningless death as he falls and is eaten by walkers. You could say he causes Kenny's death as well. Really aggravating.
Well said. For me, I have absolutely no sympathy for Ben when he used that as an excuse because it's no excuse at all. It just makes me dislike him more. He needs to stop acting like he's some special snowflake because he doesn't know what happened to his family. At the end of the day, everyone in the group was in that position to one extent or another.
Did Carley knew what happened to her family? Did Kenny knew what happened to his family besides Duck and Kat? And so on. Yet, the rest of them didn't go around betraying the group, neglecting their basic responsibilities, and acting like dumb shits.
And telling someone to chill off because they at least have a family to lose and knowing how they died is pretty fucking twisted. And considering Ben knows he's the cause of so many deaths, it's even dumber that he doesn't accept the fact Kenny has the right to be mad at him. The fact that Ben basically wanted Kenny to go "it's cool bro" and give him a break after confessing is stupid.
Ben: "It's eating me up knowing what I know.."
Lee: "Look man, that's a bad idea. Real, real bad."
Ben: "Maybe you're okay with having someone's blood on your hands but that's not who I am."
It's made all the worse because he knows Lee is a convicted killer, it was a real low blow. All I was trying to do was tell him that it was a bad idea, Kenny would literally kill him if he told him that. But no, I'm the asshole...
hurhurhur good one
I don't know about you, but facing imminent danger during a life and death situation is really the only time I can properly reveal a traumatic confession to people I wronged.
Since you replied immediately after me, I'm assuming you are addressing my post. If that's the case, I suggest you read it again.
How exactly did I go "overboard" and why are we dragging Christa into this when we are talking about Ben?
Like Ben all you want, but it doesn't change the points I've raised:
Ben betrayed the group? Check.
Ben neglected his responsibilities? Check.
Ben acted like an idiot? Check.
Ben's actions led to the deaths of many? Check.
Ben assuming Kenny would give him a free pass after admitting he royally screwed over his family and the whole group? Check.
There is no going overboard here. I am stating what happened in the game.
And frankly, the last point is a big reason why Ben gets no sympathy from me. You can defend Ben all you want, but Ben himself admits to the guilt. As the saying goes, a guilty conscience needs no accuser. So he admits his guilt, and what? He expects Kenny to let him off the hook like nothing has happened? That's ridiculous.
And people often raise the point that Ben never had someone to advise him, for him to confide in. Guess what? He asked Lee what to do, and Lee tells him to keep his mouth shut till the group is in a safe place and in a calm situation before letting Kenny know. And guess what? Ben decides to let Kenny know when he's already in the middle of a stressed out situation. And he wants someone in that state of mind to just give him a break?
Blaming everything on Ben is a mistake. By making the deal with the bandits, he buyed time for the group. Sure, it wasn't his main reason for doing so, but he still did it. As others said, Duck was bit, and that nearly happened a few times before. Katjaa kiling herself is only her fault. He screwed up in the street, but he isn't responsible for Chuck's death. The old man made an heroic choice, but I'm pretty sure he could have survived by just running away. He told Clem to stay put while he watched over Omid, and it's her choice to leave the mansion. He royally screwed up in Crawford, both because of the hatchet and by telling everything to Kenny. Hopefully, only Brie died, and not even Vernon cared about her.
no i was addressing the ben hate in general if i was responding to you i would have quoted you
you and a lot of other people seem to be forgetting who the bad guys were and they were the bandits, sure they were not very well explored as a group narratively speaking but they were the bad guys
ben was conned by the bandits. check bandits fault.
ben running from zombies leaving clementine was definitely a mistake, but who expected ben to be a hero it's not like he picked clementine up and threw her to the zombies he just ran out of blind fear.
ben was taken away from his responsibilities (looking after clementine in the house) by a woman worried for her boyfriend. check Christa and ben's fault.
ben acted like an idiot(assuming you are talking about the hatchet) check.
miscommunication, Lee should have told people that the zombies had zoned in on where they were and that the hatchet was there for a reason, because obviously the zombies weren't at the door when he took the hatchet.
Ben's actions led to the deaths of many. check bandits, zombies and suicide
and the last one is admitting your mistakes which is a good thing to do, and also people feel guilty for things they aren't directly responsible for all the time it doesn't mean they are guilty, and as i said he just asked kenny to give him a break not assuming he would get a free pass, imagine if kenny had been giving Lee a hard time since he found out he was a murderer i would imaging lee would want him to give him a break.
and that is why i said people were going overboard
The first thing Ben gets a lot of blame for is the whole bandit deal, which leads to everyone getting into the RV Duck being bitten, Lilly snapping, and all madness ensuing. Though honestly I believe you can only partly blame Ben for the events that transpire after the bandits attack. Let's look at the facts. At the beginning of episode 3 when Lee and Kenny were heading back to the motor inn you can see arrows sticking out of the wall, so this shows the bandits had attacked the motor inn group previously to what success we do not know. But we do know they stopped after Ben started trading them supplies. Now I do admit Ben should have told someone about the whole deal he had going with the bandits, but you think you could in a tense situation like the one in the Zombie apocalypse. As well if Ben hadn't been trading supplies how long do you think the motor inn group would really last against the bandits. It was basically a prison woodbury type deal. The bandits outnumbered and outgunned the motor inn group ten to one. So in reality all Ben did was delay the inevitable, and if the bandits attacked on there own will the damage could have been a lot worse, in the case of when they attacked the motor inn in the game they were taken a bit by surprise when Lilly shot one, Carly/Doug shot another or two other, and you shot the third.
Now after the motor inn attack Lilly snaps and she shoots either Carly or Doug, now this I firmly believe is not Ben's fault. The motor inn incident may have been Lilly's breaking point but it was still up to her to keep her cool and not go and blindly shoot people that she though were guilty. People have control over than own Choices and Lilly knew what she was doing when she made her choice to take the shot.
This all leads up to the point were it's revealed Duck is bit, and while I admit I do put a little blame on Ben here I don't put all of it on him. The bite happened during the motor inn attack, though if the bandits attacked at any other time if Ben had not been trading with them The results could have also lead to Duck's death.
Now finally Katjaa shoots herself which I'm sorry, but that's all on her. Suicides is a selfish thing to do and I would not put any of the blame here on Ben whatsoever.
Now moving onto episode four more things unfold the first being Ben leaving Clem on the streets. Now I don't believe this was malicious, but if Clem got hurt I would blame Ben completely for it. I do believe Ben was just attacking upon pure fear, because as he states multiple times in the episode that is his worst fear in the, being eaten alive that is, luckily though Clem didn't get hurt, but I was still dissapointed in Ben. Though I do blame the developers a little for Chuck's death, because we never got the choice to help him, but meh.
A situation I see a lot of people blame Ben for is letting Clem out of his sight so she could run off. Now I just find this crazy, and find it hard to understand why this is Ben's fault. As both Ben and Clem put it Christa asked for Ben's help to move Omid upstairs. I mean I suppose he could say "Nope not gonna help you drag yo boyfriend upstairs but I have to watch Clem." As well it's lucky Clem did escape because if she hadn't someone probably would have died. Either Molly would kill Lee, Lee would shoot Molly(Which it looks like he was going to do before Clem found him), or Molly would have left Kenny and Lee (if Lee didn't shoot Molly). So yeah.
The final Ben type scenario is when he moves the axe from the door. Now I do say that was dumb of him to remove something that was clearly keeping the doors close though at the time he took the axe there were probably no dead there at the door anymore so he thought the axe was just there. Now I just blame this on Ben's stupidity.
All this leads up to a conclusion where you choose to either drop Ben or pull him up. Now it seems the main reason the developers tried to make Ben such a mess up is so in this situation it would test you to see if you were like crawford and would let your weakest link go. Though yeah this is my opinion on Ben
Not saving Clem in the street was cowardly. All he had to do was grab her hand and run. He got the running part down. Hell, he did THAT part so well he might have set a record in short distance sprinting. But he left Clem after explicitly being told to help her, and the look on his face even shows that he's making the decision to leave her. Sure he feels like shit, but he still left her. Then Chuck had to come in and save the day. All Ben had to do was grab Clem's wrist before he bolted and Chuck would still be alive.
Crawford is where Ben really "shines" so to speak. He takes the hatchet out of te handles of a door that was A) covered in blood,
And as for him blowing up on Kenny, looking back, it was kind of a douche thing for him to do. I'm glad Kenny forgave him and all, but he still expects Kenny to back off about Ben being responsible for the deaths of his wife and child literally a couple days after they died in front of his eyes, and about 12 hours after actually finding out it was Ben. Just because "you had your family, and you got to see them die" is true, while Ben doesn't know what happened to his family, he has hope. He still has something to live for. He took Kenny's hope, his reason for living, away from him.
After all that, I'm not saying Ben is a bad person. I think that he's actually a good person, but just royally screwed up along the way. He most certainly deserves the hate that he gets, because his human body count is second only to Lee's. Ben caused a lot of pain and death in his time with the group. Hell, things were relatively stable until he joined. We've witnessed the "Ben Effect" kill almost as many people as the walkers...
how was it all on him? this is why i say people are forgetting about the bandits, because if the bandits hadn't conned ben and hadn't attacked the group the group would have been fine (except for the slowly starving to death part) we can't just ignore what the bandits do just because they aren't part of the group and are just bad people, also the bandits clearly could have killed the entire group if they hadn't fled, it is ridiculous to think they had a chance being so outnumbered and outgunned
I do agree Ben's plans should have been told to the group, but who knows how everyone would take it. I have no doubt if he told Lilly she would kick him out which is probably what he was most afraid of. And as I said Katjaa may have been distraught, but what she did was selfish, and was on her. She still had Kenny in her life, but she chose to end it. As well with the bandits I highly doubt that the motor inn group could hold. They were running low on supplies, sooner or later the bandits would either make the final attack or try to starve them out, I'm thinking they would probably do an all out attack. Yes no one died in previous firefights, but from the looks of it the previous fights probably weren't that large probably just skirmishes. On the topic of Ben's watch. What most likely happened is he probably saw a bandit and figured they were picking up the supplies but when they didn't get any they probably jumped over and probably pointed the gun at either Katjaa's or Kenny's head since they were the closest to the wall.
Yes as I said before I was dissapointed with Ben for not taking Clem or doing anything to help her which ultimately lead to Chuck's death(which I figured would happen sooner or later). As I said before though this was his number 1 fear. I honestly don't know how people react to their inner-most fears, but it probably isn't the easiest.
Yes I call it common ignorance though the zombies had to have been gone when Ben took the hatchet, and honestly that whole scene gets me. Because when Ben comes out of the room the zombies are still gone, but then out of nowhere they all appear. i don't know something just feels wrong about that scene though it was probably just an attempt on the developers part to make the player hate Ben more (which honestly I do feel like the game makers were trying there best this episode to make Ben look the worse they could possibly make him look). And Ben's outburst was probably unneeded but again I have no idea what that type of guilt feels like when it builds up. And Brie dying well not much of a shock I knew she was going to die at some point in the episode.
And Ben's speech honestly in my opinion made a lot of sense and probably was needed. As Christa said "Let him." and in the attic she even says that it was good of him to stand up to Kenny. Luckily the speech seemed to touch something in Kenny, but yeah. As well who knows if Ben had hope. Maybe he did maybe he didn't, but the point he had was you got to see your family in your last moments. I may never be able to, and in fact he never does.
I see. It just seems you were addressing me directly since you said "you are really going overboard blaming ben for everything bad that happened" right after my post. But whatever.
I seriously doubt many people wouldn't consider the bandits bad guys. However, Ben must also take personal responsibility for betraying the group and contributing to the bandit attack.
Let's use a real life analogy. Benedict Arnold is a famous traitor in the United States for trying to betray the Revolution by letting the British into West Point. Many Americans then and now simply wouldn't say: "It's not really Benedict's Arnold's fault, because the British were the bad guys! He was just conned by the British!" Yeah, the British were the enemy, but Arnold had to accept the consequences of his decision.
Likewise, were the bandits bad people, the enemy? Yes. But did Ben's actions facilitate their attack? Yes. Thus, he needs to be held responsible to this his actions.
You do realize there's a major difference between Kenny knowing Lee killed some politician with no personal connection to Kenny versus Ben admitting to Kenny that he was responsible for getting his family killed?
What makes you so certain that that the bandits would overwhelm the inn in an all out attack if Ben didn't do the trade?
The bandits' track record isn't all that impressive either. For example, in episode two, the bandits failed to kill Lee and Mark despite catching them off guard, outnumbering the two, and having tactical advantages over them. In fact, a simple flanking manoeuvre would have finished off the two, but the bandits simply sit back and yell like morons and shoot like a bunch of dimwits. These are people who have pathetic tactical acumen and are merely a mob with guns who would have trouble dealing with a determined resistance.
Let's consider the off-screen attacks on the motor inn as well. Maybe they are large scale shootouts or maybe they were skirmishes. We don't know. What we do know is that the lookout position for the motor inn survivors is a really, really bad spot. The top of the RV is completely exposed, and basically anyone hiding in the woods in front of the inn could have easily shot and killed the lookout. This didn't happen, which again suggests the bandits are thugs who suck at actual combat.
Now let's look at the final attack. Thanks to the group letting their guard down because of Ben, the bandits managed to swarm the inn and take hostages. They had the advantage, but they completely lost the initiative. They didn't even see Lilly flanking them and getting the high ground despite, if you look at the inn, very limited ways for Lilly to do so. So despite outnumbering the group and having all the initial advantages, the bandits were already getting their asses whooped by the motor inn survivors before the walkers show up.
Base on these dismal performances, I'd say the group could've handle the bandits if they launched an all out attack had they not let their guard down.
Of course Lilly is responsible for her actions, but so is Ben. He did not confess before things really escalated, and this led to the death of an innocent person.
Yeah, sure Ben was probably scared about the consequences because he's just a coward, but that's no excuse. It's like a murderer watching an innocent person being falsely accused and keeping his mouth shut to avoid the punishment. Not cool.
While I really dislike Ben, I definitely understand others have to take personal responsibility. Katjaa had to take some responsibility for basically abandoning Kenny to deal with both her suicide and Duck's death, but in all fairness, Katjaa wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind considering the circumstances. At the same time, I still say Ben needs to take partial blame for having a very direct role in creating the circumstances for Katjaa to commit suicide.
This is a really good point actually, though personally, I didn't see it as letting the weakest link go. I would've done everything I could to help if, for example, Duck or Molly's sister was in life-or-death situation as a member of my group. I let Ben go because he had a hand in the deaths of all the other characters, so yeah, retribution.
Duck's death is on him because he kept the secret from the grup, wich caused everyone to lower their guard. He's the one that let the bandits into the motel, remember? They were inside and had EVERYONE at gunpoint within seconds. The situation only went to hell after the bandits got past the barricade, and if someone COMPETENT, like Lee, Lilly, Kenny, or Carley had been on watch, they never would have made it across the street before being spotted. Because of Ben's deal, he assumed they came to pick up the meds. He let them close enough to take the group by surprise. They got in, and snce nobody was ready for the bandit attack, the rest of the bandits were able to zerg rush into the motel before anyone could do anything about it. The walkers came immediately after them, and the only reason Duck, Kat, and Clem couldn't get to safety because they were pinned dwn by the bandits Ben let in. The walker got close enough and bit Duck. If the bandits hadn't been let in, all they could do was shoot arrows at the walls. As long as everyone was inside, they were safe until Ben screwed everyone over.
well maybe i should have said "you lot" or something more obviously directed and a group of people but i really do quote people if i am directly responding to them.
I don't know the story of this benedict arnold character so i can't really know what you are trying to say, but Ben didn't let the bandits in the back door so they could attack the group, from what i can make out as to what happened with ben and the bandits was that Ben was approached while he was on his own and they convinced him that if he did a favor for them (giving them some supplies) they would release one of his friends that they had captured, this went on and on until ben realised he had been conned but by then it was already too late and he was in and ongoing situation of him dropping off supplies to the bandits or they would kill the group.
my point was about giving someone a hard time, it doesn't matter what the reasons are you shouldn't pick on somebody and give them a hard time (which kenny was doing to ben even before he knew about the bandit situation) so it doesn't matter about the difference between lee being a convicted murderer and ben stealing supplies, the point is that anybody who is being picked on deserves a break.
so as i said that was the bandits fault not bens, you know because they were the bad guys attacking the group, and what do you think carly lilly kenny or lee could have done about an ambush? i have explained in another post about how easy it would be to sneak up on the motel (from the sides not from the woods and across the road) which was only barricaded enough to deter zombies, but basically all they would have to do is sneak up behind the wall and pop their heads up with guns out and they instantly have everybody on the parking lot covered and one person on top of the RV couldn't have done anything about that unless they wanted everybody with guns pointed at their head to be killed
I hate it when your long post doesn't post -_-, so you have to retype everything again.
The reason I think the bandits would sooner or later overrun the motor inn group is because they basically had more numbers, guns, and supplies than the motor inn group. Yes there track record is not good they don't seem the best at combat, but let's look at it like Woodbury v. the prison. The govener basically got everyone in Woodbury to attack the prison, non of them with much of any combat training, yet they still manage to succeed in killing almost all of Rick's group.
On the Lilly subject yes Ben could have confessed, but I still put most of the blame on Lilly I don't care if she was becoming unhinged she still killed a member of the group. The worst part is she did so before the entire group got to vote taking action into her own hands. This is what really makes it her fault rather than waiting for Kenny or Katjaa's opinion she just goes right out and kills either Carly or tries to kill Ben, but Doug saves him.
Honestly if anything Ben had an indirect role in Katjaa's death because a map of the events would look like so:
Ben steal's supplies-> Bandits attack->zombies attack and bite Duck-> Lilly goes insane and murders someone-> Katjaa kills herself -> Duck dies.
Maybe you thought of it as retribution, but I do remember telltale or someone saying that's how they made decision to seem like a crawford situation, and the aftermath makes it even seem like that more. The entire game it seems like the game is showing crawford is not the way, and so after you make the Ben decision it seems like the game tries to punish you by Kenny implying what you did in front of everyone even clem, and it seems like everyone knows what you did at that point. As well in my eyes the whole Situation is basically if you let him go it's basically murder. This is the first time Lee has had direct control over whether a group member would live or die. Honestly I find dropping Ben no different then Lilly shooting Doug or Carly, both are murder that was not needed.
But that's my point: all the extra manpower, ammo, and supplies basically counted for nothing during all those encounters I've listed.
Comic spoilers ahead for everyone else....
I also don't think the comparison to the Woodbury army is fair. Let's keep in mind Rick's outnumbered group successfully repelled the first attack which included Woodbury bringing in a tank.
It was only later, during the next attack, that the Governor defeated Rick's group after a good number (including the best fighters like Andrea and Glenn) of Rick's group lost their nerves and walked off on him between the two attacks. It was only after being severely depleted of both manpower and quality fighters did the Prison fall.
Back to the game, we should also keep in mind we really don't know how many people were part of the bandits. I think it's probably safe to assume it's not a huge group to the extent of Woodbury's army considering we do know that the majority of bandits are former Save-Lot employees.
Another important thing to keep in mind is that being outnumbered doesn't mean as much for a defending force as it is for an attacking force. It's conventional military wisdom that, all other factors being equal, the attacking force needs to outnumber fortified defenders 3 to 1 for a realistic chance of success. This is especially relevant in basically "simple" fights like the one at the inn.
This is due to the fact people attacking tend to have a lot more to worry about and being forced to move into the open. This is evidenced by the fact in game that it really only took Carley, Lilly, and Lee to more or less take cover in their positions and gun down the bandits who, conversely, had to cut across the road and scramble over the wall before they are in a position to shoot back.
While the Woodbury army may have been able to mobilize way more people, as far as I can tell during the final attack, I'm not sure the game's bandits managed to even reached that ratio (at least, it wasn't extremely lopsided). Regardless, the fact of the matter is the bandits were already losing by the time the walkers showed up mainly due to their own ineptitude to take advantage of their initial success.
I definitely placed most of the blame on Lilly as well, but I also see Ben need to take responsibility for not confessing when he should have. Anyway, it sounds like we are on the same page here.
I've basically said the same thing about the bandits. Given the appearance of the motel's wall (it's riddled with bullet holes and crossbow bolts), the bandits were evidently never even able to breach it until Ben basically layed out a welcome mat; even then, it seems like they were content to just try and come through the gate (rather than create more than one breach).
I think I even mentioned the conventional wisdom that attackers typically need a 3 to 1 advantage to have decent odds of success, everything else being equal.
It's notable that even in the one bandit attack that managed to get through the gate (due to Ben's crapulence), they still failed to kill anyone once the bullets started flying. All they did was pin themselves between an armed group and a pack of zombies coming through the woods
The bandits really seemed to kinda take their cues from Zap Brannigan's Big Book of War, and even then it appears that their copy had missing pages.
Who did that? Kenny. In fact most of the things in the game are Kenny's fault, if he helped save Shawn the group could potentially have stayed on the farm as a reward and meet Rick and the others later, if Kenny had not killed Larry, Lilly would be fine and they could still have Carley/Doug and Lilly together in the group. Kenny chose to go to Savannah, in the first place. Kenny can be blamed for causing everyone's deaths. However that really isn't fair, I still blame him for the Lilly scenario and not saving Shawn.
Partially agreed, but insanity is no excuse for murder. Lee had to kill his own zombified brother, but he didn't put a bullet in someone's head. Kenny watched his wife commit suicide and (determinant) killed his own son, yet he didn't kill anyone. Kenny has some fault for killing Larry, but Lilly also needed to maintain composure, or give up the leader position.
Lilly still had no reason to kill Carley. So... Lee and Kenny kill her father, so she shoots a woman who didn't? Even if she blamed her for stealing supplies, there was no reason to 'open fire'.
Whether Kenny had 'caused' Shawn's death or not, Hershel still wouldn't have let them stay. In the comics, Hershel kicks Rick's group out, and in the show nearly does it as well. He never was a fan of strangers, and as Shawn said, "He just thinks having people around is worse than whatever's out there." However it was written...
Kenny made some mistakes, but he admitted to them, got over them, and got stronger. He didn't kill because he was broken, although if he was ALLOWED, he would have killed Ben. Had Lilly killed Kenny, I'd be shaken as to which side to take as that he has his own family to look after(a child mainly). Larry was pretty much dead either way, and although it wasn't the best way to do it, I feel Kenny did 'save' everyone at the meatlocker, and recklessly charging in at Andy was stupid, but he did distract him long enough for Lee and Carley/Doug to get him.
I'd say he does more good than bad, and I like his character. He and my Lee are best buds.
Anyway... this is a "Why do girls like Ben?" thread, not a "Why does Kenny deserve hate?" thread :P. Probably gonna get criticism for it too ^_^
You're right, back on topic- I feel girls mainly like Ben because he's shy. They can easily relate their insecurities onto him and for some reason nowadays it seem girls are beginning to head towards the shy guys (Not Mario).
Never found Ben the least bit attractive as a person he comes across as such a wimp
Not a very manly trait at all
Hmmm...well I'm shy and I never had a girl like me in my 27 years of living =/
Well, your romantic choices in a zombie apocalypse are drastically reduced... also Ben's mistakes forced him into the spotlight, where he had everyone's attention. That probably helped.
-ben made heaps of mistakes and everyone makes mistakes so maybe they feel like they have something in common
-he's reckless and almost always brings a torrent of things that make the game what it is (for example he invited the bandits over for afternoon tea which broke the last thread of lilly's logic)
im not meaning to be offensive to ben fans because ben is an okay kid but i always had the feeling that ben was subconsciously a secret spy for the zombies and was sabotaging and indirectly killing everyone he could.
im a girl but ben is average maybe if kenny shared a little bit of his magical moustache with ben he might have been able to help out lee's group rather than hinder it
I think we found a rare one! lol
A coward as well.
So basically what Mornai is saying is, "Start a zombie apocalypse and the girls will be forced to be with you; there will be less to choose from." Either that or... "Be a clown."
Advice of wisdom
They won't be forced, but your chances would probably be fairly decent, if you don't die of course. Look at Carley: she liked Doug, Lee and may have liked Ben eventually. That's half the unmarried male population in their group already!
As long as they don't find out you were the mad scientist who brought the zombies upon the earth, I'm sure you'll be fine.
Lol I was just joking around to piss ya off, Mornai ^_^. I have to agree that's true; they'll become desperate for a mate with so few options. 'Repopulate the Earth'! lol
I'm sure saving the girl's life multiple times would also improve your chances :P
It takes an extreme effort to anger me, and hopefully we don't see such efforts here. :eek:
You're not guaranteed to have the ladies swarming you if you're the only guy around, but at least they can't say "I can do better".
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Ok, I was annoyed by all the stupid decisions he'd made throughout the game (giving stuff to the bandits, ditching Clem, taking the axe that was keeping the walkers out) but I was completely fed up when he decided to tell Kenny it was his fault Katja and Duck died at the shittiest time possible. I mean get a grip on yourself! He could have picked a better time to break the truth, preferably when we were not on the run from walkers and already fragmented as a group.
And there are plenty of cuter video game characters anyway...