Because Kenny did not shoot a good friend in the head, if Kenny had shot Carley it would be different but clearly that did not happen, and Lilly is so racket with guilt that has to be the reason she left us for dead without care.
Well, my Kenny did try to kill a good friend in a few instances because he didn't agree with his actions: Lee.
And I'm assuming that you're talking about when you bring Lilly with you after the Carley/Doug incident. Fine, I can't really argue that. But it's not as if she had left them with no shelter. The train was there, and they took it. And she stole the van because she didn't want to stick around and wait to see if she would be executed or not. It wasn't the right thing, but it was the smart thing, and Kenny would have done just the same if he was in her shoes.
True, Kenny does try to kill you indirectly in Episode 2 and 3, but so did Lilly to me so they are both guilty of hold a grudge ageist you and almost taking Lee's life. She did not know the train even worked, she left knowing very well it could have killed everyone, including Clementine showing she really did not about her at all, and Kenny might not be a good guy if you do not side with him be he rewards being friends with him by backing Lee up, Lilly steal leaves you on your ass even if you never argued with her, I do not think she even sees you as a friend, more like a helpful minion that does what she says.
I don't remember Lilly trying to kill me indirectly, unless you mean the part if I agree to kill Larry and she doesn't shoot the cannibal that tries to kill Lee. More understandable than Kenny's choice to leave me to die because I didn't agree with him.
I meant that part, and Clementine was right there, with Kenny if Lee died then no one would have known but at that moment everyone would know why Lee would be dead and I am pretty sure Kenny would have ended her on the spot.
There's something uncomfortably bloodthirsty about this thread. Lily's actions might be reprehensible, but the ways in which some forum members feel she should be punished is downright unsettling.
Ditching Lily was brutal enough. If she ran off in the RV, she wasn't going to get very far. Either way, she's probably zombie chow. And if she isn't, Telltale will let us know. But let's not turn into a lynch mob over a video game character.
What part was the most uncomfortable, my guess is were at a point I just stated the way's I really wished she would die, you know like from burning alive to slowly bleeding to death, and to be fair I have never hated a character this much since ever, really that might sound crazy but it is the truth, and it is a bit late for this not to turn into a crowd of Kenny fans yelling out BURN BITCH, it's kind of already happened in a way and I more then likely started that, no regrets there unless you think I should stop since I DO listen to reason.
There's something uncomfortably bloodthirsty about this thread. Lily's actions might be reprehensible, but the ways in which some forum members feel she should be punished is downright unsettling.
Ditching Lily was brutal enough. If she ran off in the RV, she wasn't going to get very far. Either way, she's probably zombie chow. And if she isn't, Telltale will let us know. But let's not turn into a lynch mob over a video game character.
Well before episode 3 people were calling out for Kenny's blood because he killed Larry and that he left Lee behind and people wanted Duck death and after episode 3 people then started the traditional " Wanting Ben death and his head on a silver plater " .
Yes leaving her on the road is punishment but i think she can survive that due to her being military .
I'm not bloodthirsty , i'm just angry how Lilly does not even feel regret about killing Carley or accidently killing Doug and does not even want to face consequences .
I mean hell, if your going to die and you are a good leader and everything at least take your death with some dignity, running off with the only known working vehicle is not a great idea, and when I am done she will so wish she had just stayed and died instead of prolonging the pain a little while longer.
Well before episode 3 people were calling out for Kenny's blood because he killed Larry and that he left Lee behind and people wanted Duck death and after episode 3 people then started the traditional " Wanting Ben death and his head on a silver plater " .
I wasn't on the forum during those days, so I haven't become completely desensitized to Telltale screwing around with my emotions yet. :rolleyes:
In the beginning people wanted Larry dead when he tried to kill you, when given the option they did not kill him, they hated Duck for killing Shawn, they started to like him when he died and they felt bad for hating, they really wanted Ben dead but when the time came most did not kill him, funny how that works, Lilly is still the exception.
I ditched her after she killed Carley. That was satisfying enough, she deserved it. I had no beef with her (nor Kenny) before that, but just flipping out and killing Carley made me mad.
And about Kenny killing her dad, the way it happend in my story, he had valid reasons. And Larry was an big asshole anyway, he didn't care about anyone in the group.
Seeing how I left her behind, I'm inclined to think that's punishment enough.
If I had killed her, then I would have proven Carley wrong when she said (though I'm paraphrasing) just because I'm a convict, it doesn't have to mean I'm a bad person. Lee killed the senator (and possibly his wife) because his wife was having an affair, and adding Lilly to the list would have meant that all Lee knows to solve his problems is to murder one after another, which would hardly have made him sympathetic in my eyes.
I don't see her as irredeemable though, she simply snapped after a series of events that sent her over the edge, the main factor being that her father was killed and having to live with the man who did that and showed no remorse for doing so. And her only immoral act was killing Carley, and as sad as I am to say it especially since I know she doesn't derserve it, Carley did bring it on herself by tossing insults just to provoke Lilly (Sorry. ).
I did find out what she did if you take her with her instead of abandoning her, but put yourself in her shoes, she was thinking she'll be executed, and it was either let them take her life, or leave the group. It wasn't right, but it was the smart choice, and it's not as if she left them with completely nothing since they were planning to take the train with or without Lilly, and definitely without the run-down RV that served no purpose to them.
As for Season 2, as others have mentioned before, I'd rather she never shows up again, same goes for Vernon. It would only serve to mess up the characterisation of the new protagonist, who would appear a complete saint in one moment and suddenly have this urge to murder Lilly/Vernon or be outright nasty towards them the moment they show up.
Like I said earlier, Lilly should be punished, imo, only if you took her on the RV with you. Leaving her is punishment enough, so if she were to return I wouldn't do anything to her simply based on her past actions. Punishing her just because Clem says so is kind of...well, why the heck would you take orders from a 9 year old in the apocalypse? I didn't take Clem with me to Crawford even though she begged me with those puppy dog eyes of hers, because I didn't want a bunch of crazies armed with assault weapons even looking in my own direction, let alone hers.
And as for Kenny killing Larry being just as bad, it's not. Depending on how you look at it, it can still be horrible, but Kenny had valid reasons for doing what he did. It doesn't take hours to turn, it takes minutes if the body is already dead. David/Travis turned in one minute at the most. By the time anyone got around to doing anything, Larry might have already been deciding which one of us to chomp first. Admittedly, I might be a bit biased on that matter because I helped Kenny make sure Larry didn't eat us, but I'm not saying what he did was heroic or great in any way. Lilly had to see her father die, which sucked, but Kenny at the very least ensured he wouldn't turn. Whether he was actually turning or not is up for debate, but in that situation Kenny's solution may not have been nice, but it was smart. So tell me, what were Lilly's valid reasons for robbing the group of one of its most important members?
Reanimation times very. In the comics Rick was able to dig a hole and bury Shane without him turning into a zombie. Shane reanimated some time after his burial.Rick had to go all the way back to dig him up so he could put him out of his mysery and lay him to rest.
I still think Kenny was impulsive because he was impatient and fearful of what would become of his family if he didn't get to them soon. The fact is, if that was his wife or son he would not have done what he did without confirming they had turned.
I think he should have held the salt lick above Larry but should have waited to drop it. It's about compassion at the end of the day. This scenario was also in the comics when a character's wife had hung herself, her husband wanted to do CPR on her and another character, like Kenny wanted to kill her before she turned. He had a gun pointed at her and was about to shoot until Rick stopped him by aiming at him. It turned out that it was possible to save her and she was brought back with CPR. The point there was that Rick and co felt that they should at least try. That was the humane thing to do.
Some will argue that they weren't in a locked room but I will argue that the character attempting CPR was just as close to her body as Lee and Lilly were to Larry. They took the risk out of compassion and the desire to preserve life. Kenny was driving the RV with a bitten child that could have turned and bitten his mother and Kenny and wanted Duck to remain on the moving train putting everyone at risk, why? out of love for his son. So I don't see Kenny's decision to kill Larry being out of logic if so where was that logic when his bitten son was kept on the train?
When you tell Kenny's wife what he did in the meat locker she is heartbroken. Seeing the lengths he would go to and seeing him give up his humanity no doubt contributed to her decision to kill herself. Kenny was no longer the man she fell in love with. The apocalypse changed him and her view of him, causing her to abandon hope.
As for Lilly I can't make excuses for what she did but I would say that Carly didn't help matters. Lilly was a ticking time bomb, for good reason. She was coming apart, was losing control and her position in the group. She was the group’s leader and was undermined and often disregarded even when her choices were the right ones and were best for the group.
She always disagreed with Ben joining the group, she was disregarded and Ben joined anyway. She had suspicions of a traitor being in the group and was dismissed and considered paranoid. She calls out Ben because of her gut feeling. Everyone again dismissed it and told her Ben was innocent. She has the frustration of knowing Ben is guilty and she can't get the others to see it, she's flustered and unfocussed because she is sleep deprived and sounds like she's spouting nonsense to the group, then Carly calls her daddy's little princess amongst other things after her dad was brutally destroyed inches away from her, is it any wonder she snapped in the heat of the moment?
In the Doug scenario she wanted to kill Ben, the guilty wolf in sheep’s clothing, the traitor in the group that had divided loyalties and sneaked supplies to the bandits to keep his true friends who he believed were their prisoners from harm. Whose lies and sneaky behaviour cost them the safety of the motor inn and most of their supplies. Hell, I would have wanted to shoot him myself. Come to think of it I actually found the game more rewarding and enjoyable when I let Ben die at Crawford and I wasn't going through the mental breakdown Lilly was going through. So I can see why she snapped.
In light of all the good she did I still see her as one of the best characters in Lee's group, she did save them from the bandits and clean up Ben's mess after all and that was after her mental health diminished. By that I mean she took back the leader role and instructed Lee to keep the bandits distracted whilst she took up a vantage point and took them out with her sniper.
I'm not saying she was right for killing Carly or wanting to kill Ben but I can't blame her in light of the bigger picture. If I saw her in season 2 I wouldn't want to punish her. She has been punished enough, in fact she was punished before she did anything wrong, she was punished by her dad being slain prematurely.
Ah ok. To be honest, the game is the only thing of The Walking Dead I've ever bothered with. But judging from what I saw, after death, the turn is pretty fast. Everyone in that room would have died if Kenny hadn't done what he did. Lee had symptoms you described because he was pretty much slowly dying. Larry just up and died really quickly.
Agreed. It wasn't pleasant but he saved the life of everyone in that room.
The whole point to that scene was the ambiguity. No one can know if Larry would have turned or not as no one knows if he was really dead. Even if he was dead reanimation times vary. That's what adds suspense when a character dies in the show or the comics.
To quote Lee in one of the dialogue options, Kenny was no hero.
There was no vote or nothing. It was the case of i'm gonna kill this guy and fuck anyone who gets in my way. On the train it's the same thing. My bitten son duck is getting on this train and I don't wanna here anything about, no vote, my decision is final, i'm gonna keep driving this train and fuck anyone who get's in my way. See the pattern?
I think Larry could have been saved and I think telltale put an Easter egg in the game where Larry shows signs of waking up just before the salt lick lands on his head if you do enough chest compressions. Based on my view that Larry was as much dead as Maggie was in the comics when they did CPR and brought her back to life I think Kenny jumped the gun in his panicked state and set a chain of events in motion with dire consequences.
In the beginning people wanted Larry dead when he tried to kill you, when given the option they did not kill him, they hated Duck for killing Shawn, they started to like him when he died and they felt bad for hating, they really wanted Ben dead but when the time came most did not kill him, funny how that works, Lilly is still the exception.
The only reason I saved Ben on my first play through was because Clem was with us and she was fighting his corner saying how she should get a vote and how Ben was her friend. I couldn't leave him to die after that. In my second play through I made sure she stayed at home. When the argument went down, Kenny wanted him gone, Christa wanted him gone and with no Clementine to appeal to my conscience or defend him I gladly let him die in the bell tower. I would of thrown him from the train after he admitted Lilly was right about him supplying the bandits if Telltale had let me and that was before he left Clementine for dead in the opening moments of episode 4.
As for Larry I thought he was a prick in the beginning but he grew on me by episode 2. He was like your typical pantomime villain "he's behind you" etc and I found it funny when he wanted to argue with Lee but I agreed with him and left him stuck for words. I thought seeing his daughter grow close to me would really piss him off. I would have wanted him to stay around for those reasons alone.
Duck didn't bother me at all. I saw him as a playmate for Clem.
Well before episode 3 people were calling out for Kenny's blood because he killed Larry and that he left Lee behind and people wanted Duck death and after episode 3 people then started the traditional " Wanting Ben death and his head on a silver plater " .
My problem with Kenny wasn't that he killed Larry its that he left me for dead twice and watched in the drug store when I was struggling with a walker. He even looked disappointed that I survived. There was no way back for our friendship after that.
I don't remember Lilly trying to kill me indirectly, unless you mean the part if I agree to kill Larry and she doesn't shoot the cannibal that tries to kill Lee. More understandable than Kenny's choice to leave me to die because I didn't agree with him.
I sorry but at what point is it less understandable for Kenny to let you die then Lilly, I mean ya Kenny fucks up there but Lilly does so about equally, there is no excuse for ether one of them to do that, plus who kills a friend for no reason, I mean sure I am being biased but I won't be here, they both screw up badly equally, that is it.
Reanimation times very. In the comics Rick was able to dig a hole and bury Shane without him turning into a zombie. Shane reanimated some time after his burial.Rick had to go all the way back to dig him up so he could put him out of his mysery and lay him to rest.
I still think Kenny was impulsive because he was impatient and fearful of what would become of his family if he didn't get to them soon. The fact is, if that was his wife or son he would not have done what he did without confirming they had turned.
I think he should have held the salt lick above Larry but should have waited to drop it. It's about compassion at the end of the day. This scenario was also in the comics when a character's wife had hung herself, her husband wanted to do CPR on her and another character, like Kenny wanted to kill her before she turned. He had a gun pointed at her and was about to shoot until Rick stopped him by aiming at him. It turned out that it was possible to save her and she was brought back with CPR. The point there was that Rick and co felt that they should at least try. That was the humane thing to do.
Some will argue that they weren't in a locked room but I will argue that the character attempting CPR was just as close to her body as Lee and Lilly were to Larry. They took the risk out of compassion and the desire to preserve life. Kenny was driving the RV with a bitten child that could have turned and bitten his mother and Kenny and wanted Duck to remain on the moving train putting everyone at risk, why? out of love for his son. So I don't see Kenny's decision to kill Larry being out of logic if so where was that logic when his bitten son was kept on the train?
When you tell Kenny's wife what he did in the meat locker she is heartbroken. Seeing the lengths he would go to and seeing him give up his humanity no doubt contributed to her decision to kill herself. Kenny was no longer the man she fell in love with. The apocalypse changed him and her view of him, causing her to abandon hope.
As for Lilly I can't make excuses for what she did but I would say that Carly didn't help matters. Lilly was a ticking time bomb, for good reason. She was coming apart, was losing control and her position in the group. She was the group’s leader and was undermined and often disregarded even when her choices were the right ones and were best for the group.
She always disagreed with Ben joining the group, she was disregarded and Ben joined anyway. She had suspicions of a traitor being in the group and was dismissed and considered paranoid. She calls out Ben because of her gut feeling. Everyone again dismissed it and told her Ben was innocent. She has the frustration of knowing Ben is guilty and she can't get the others to see it, she's flustered and unfocussed because she is sleep deprived and sounds like she's spouting nonsense to the group, then Carly calls her daddy's little princess amongst other things after her dad was brutally destroyed inches away from her, is it any wonder she snapped in the heat of the moment?
In the Doug scenario she wanted to kill Ben, the guilty wolf in sheep’s clothing, the traitor in the group that had divided loyalties and sneaked supplies to the bandits to keep his true friends who he believed were their prisoners from harm. Whose lies and sneaky behaviour cost them the safety of the motor inn and most of their supplies. Hell, I would have wanted to shoot him myself. Come to think of it I actually found the game more rewarding and enjoyable when I let Ben die at Crawford and I wasn't going through the mental breakdown Lilly was going through. So I can see why she snapped.
In light of all the good she did I still see her as one of the best characters in Lee's group, she did save them from the bandits and clean up Ben's mess after all and that was after her mental health diminished. By that I mean she took back the leader role and instructed Lee to keep the bandits distracted whilst she took up a vantage point and took them out with her sniper.
I'm not saying she was right for killing Carly or wanting to kill Ben but I can't blame her in light of the bigger picture. If I saw her in season 2 I wouldn't want to punish her. She has been punished enough, in fact she was punished before she did anything wrong, she was punished by her dad being slain prematurely.
Well, I had an epic, disarming response prepared for almost all of this, but attempted to post and lost it. So, a quick summary...
I remember that scene from the comics. They had weapons, in addition to not being locked in a room. There was nothing in the meat locker aside from saltlicks. Without weapons, Larry would have killed everyone in the meat locker if he had reanimated.
Carley may not have helped but Lilly didn't have the right to shoot anyone because her father died. Lee and Kenny both lost their families, but refrained from randomly shooting at group members like it was a carnival game. Wanting to deal with the traitor? That's fine, as long as you remember you are part of a group. She took power into her own hands.
What do you get from siding with Lilly? Abandoned on the side of the road. That is even IF you side with her at every opportunity. She lies to you, then leaves 3 adults, 2 children, and an idiot traitor to die on the side of the road, simply because they were discussing what to do with her after she murdered someone. If that trian hadn't worked, the rest of the group would have died because of her. That includes her best, no, ONLY friend, if you consistently sided with her. Say what you will about Kenny, but if you have his back, he'll have yours, unconditionally. That's more than Lilly can offer.
I still won't punish her if she appears in Season 2. I left her on the side of the road, which is enough for me even if she survives. If I had taken her with me for some reason, and she screwed me over after giving her that chance, it would be another story.
Lilly if she is alive lives in a post apocalyptic world. There is no such thing as being "punished for her crimes" unless someone from Lee's group puts a bullet in her. Since the only one still alive who would know her is Clem well.... I don't see Clem shooting Lilly.
Until then anyone else she meets is just going to know here as a crabby girl who was in the military. Unless she says anything about herself more then that. I doubt she is going to tell the group she joins up with (if she does) that she shot Carley because she was getting ticked off and upset that she was getting closer to Lee, or that she shot Doug because he jumped in the way.
Anyone that kills an innocent person in cold blood with no regrets and selfishly abandons a group that they lead for dead deserve all the punishment they deserve even a death sentence.
Ignoring the fact she hardly did anything to contribute to the the group, Episode 3 showed her true colors, she didn't give a damn about anyone else but herself and her dad. Some people condemn Kenny for what he did but what Lilly did was much worse and if Kenny didn't deserve to live, surely she shouldn't aswell.
I'm hoping she appears in Season 2 as an antagonist but not as the main one as I'm sure Telltale can think of a better one. If the season 2 protagonist meets her, he won't know her past unless he meets Clementine which I doubt will happen but will catch on that she did something bad due to her hostile attitude and the conversations you'll have with her regarding her previous group(If telltale makes him smart), knowing Lilly she'll probably start acting like she's in charge(maybe start sleeping with the leader in order to get special treatment) which will lead to arguments between you and her, eventually she pulls a gun on you if you decide to do things your way or help someone in need then when push comes to shove, she'll decide to take you out for undermining her authority by leaving you to die with either shooting you in the leg(Shane Style) or locking you out(Rick Style) after which she'll confess that she killed someone and didn't give damn, I can picture her with a sinister smile, that or they can make the protagonist Carley's brother which would give him a legitimate motive to kill her. It's the least Telltale can do after rubbing Carley's corpse in our face in 400 Days.
Anyone that kills an innocent person in cold blood with no regrets and selfishly abandons a group that they lead for dead deserve all the punishment they deserve even a death sentence.
Ignoring the fact she hardly did anything to contribute to the the group, Episode 3 showed her true colors, she didn't give a damn about anyone else but herself and her dad. Some people condemn Kenny for what he did but what Lilly did was much worse and if Kenny didn't deserve to live, surely she shouldn't aswell.
I'm hoping she appears in Season 2 as an antagonist but not as the main one as I'm sure Telltale can think of a better one. If the season 2 protagonist meets her, he won't know her past unless he meets Clementine which I doubt will happen but will catch on that she did something bad due to her hostile attitude and the conversations you'll have with her regarding her previous group(If telltale makes him smart), knowing Lilly she'll probably start acting like she's in charge(maybe start sleeping with the leader in order to get special treatment) which will lead to arguments between you and her, eventually she pulls a gun on you if you decide to do things your way or help someone in need then when push comes to shove, she'll decide to take you out for undermining her authority by leaving you to die with either shooting you in the leg(Shane Style) or locking you out(Rick Style) after which she'll confess that she killed someone and didn't give damn, I can picture her with a sinister smile, that or they can make the protagonist Carley's brother which would give him a legitimate motive to kill her. It's the least Telltale can do after rubbing Carley's corpse in our face in 400 Days.
I'm not going to say what she did was right but if you look at her face right after she did it she regret doing it and I wouldn't punish her she had her dad killed right in front of her and she wouldn't be that evil has you thought her to be
I'm not going to say what she did was right but if you look at her face right after she did it she regret doing it and I wouldn't punish her she had her dad killed right in front of her and she wouldn't be that evil has you thought her to be
Her face was more like "Shit, I'm Screwed" considering her first words were "She couldn't be trusted" showing no sign of regret. If you take her with you, she'll look sad & depressed throughout the journey but when your back is turned looking for the pencil, her expressions quickly change to "I don't give a rats ass what I did". She was making you feel sorry for her with her sad face just so they can go easy on her.
I know her dad died but if she killed Kenny, I honestly would understand but she didn't, she killed the useful & caring member in her group for what? because she refused to be bullied by her. Each member in the group lost someone but you don't see them bullying, threatening & killing someone for nothing.
Killing someone due to a tragic loss which has nothing to do with them is never a good reason. The Governor murders people for nothing but should he get off because he lost his niece & brother?
If killing an innocent person in cold blood & leaving a group to die is not evil then I don't know what is.
IceRyder you are so right on so many levels, I have said this many times but until people get it I have to repeat it, killing someone that has no ties to you because they said nothing is absolute crap, Carley never said anything bad about Larry that Lilly heard, she did not like Larry but she was not happy when he died, Carley was even fearful about Lilly being paranoid and wanted to prevent it, why she still goes after her is really beyond me. From what I saw she does not seem regretful after shooting Carley, maybe with Doug but it's more along the lines of ' shit I shot the wrong person' regret. I really do not understand how some people think it's Carley's own fault she got killed, there are not a lot of those people but they do exist, tell me did you think Lilly was going to murder Carley when the argument started, I did not I thought it would work out more like the argument in the drug store in Episode 1.
IceRyder you are so right on so many levels, I have said this many times but until people get it I have to repeat it, killing someone that has no ties to you because they said nothing is absolute crap, Carley never said anything bad about Larry that Lilly heard, she did not like Larry but she was not happy when he died, Carley was even fearful about Lilly being paranoid and wanted to prevent it, why she still goes after her is really beyond me. From what I saw she does not seem regretful after shooting Carley, maybe with Doug but it's more along the lines of ' shit I shot the wrong person' regret. I really do not understand how some people think it's Carley's own fault she got killed, there are not a lot of those people but they do exist, tell me did you think Lilly was going to murder Carley when the argument started, I did not I thought it would work out more like the argument in the drug store in Episode 1.
I thought she would at least do something to Ben exile him or something like that
IceRyder you are so right on so many levels, I have said this many times but until people get it I have to repeat it, killing someone that has no ties to you because they said nothing is absolute crap, Carley never said anything bad about Larry that Lilly heard, she did not like Larry but she was not happy when he died, Carley was even fearful about Lilly being paranoid and wanted to prevent it, why she still goes after her is really beyond me. From what I saw she does not seem regretful after shooting Carley, maybe with Doug but it's more along the lines of ' shit I shot the wrong person' regret. I really do not understand how some people think it's Carley's own fault she got killed, there are not a lot of those people but they do exist, tell me did you think Lilly was going to murder Carley when the argument started, I did not I thought it would work out more like the argument in the drug store in Episode 1.
Well said Bioshock
I thought she would at least do something to Ben exile him or something like that
But she didn't, she tries to kill him(If you saved Doug) but with Carley, she shifts her temper on her, using the traitor excuse to bully her, notice how she doesn't accuse Doug.
But she didn't, she tries to kill him(If you saved Doug) but with Carley, she shifts her temper on her, using the traitor excuse to bully her, notice how she doesn't accuse Doug.
Carley in my opinion still should of backed off before she went off on Lilly I'm not giving Lilly an excuse at all but we both know she wasn't in the right state of mind when she did what she did
Carley in my opinion still should of backed off before she went off on Lilly I'm not giving Lilly an excuse at all but we both know she wasn't in the right state of mind when she did what she did
I see a lot of this where Carley gets blamed but I'm sorry, what exactly what she supposed to do?
Stand there a be bullied and allow Lilly to threaten & push a scared teenager to falsely admitting that she was a traitor so she can throw her out in the dark with flesh eating zombies everywhere?
She tried being calm, patient, talk calmly & take their time with finding out who the traitor is before making rash decisions but Lilly kept going after her & targeting her without a second thought, eventually Lilly provoked her. In her position, she doesn't say anything bad about Lilly, doesn't argue with her, shows concern for her and helps protect the group all in 3 months and out of nowhere she starts being harassed by her without a reason and to top it off, she starts harassing and pressure a weak teen to finger her as a culprit without any evidence, anyone would've went off on Lilly. Getting accused by a crazy bitch doesn't take away your right to defend yourself.
How was Carley supposed to know Lilly had a murderous tendency? How many arguments end in a bloodshed?
Yeah her dad died but like everybody else, she suffered a tragic loss but they don't act the way Lilly does.
I see a lot of this where Carley gets blamed but I'm sorry, what exactly what she supposed to do?
Stand there a be bullied and allow Lilly to threaten & push a scared teenager to falsely admitting that she was a traitor so she can throw her out in the dark with flesh eating zombies everywhere?
She tried being calm, patient and talk calmly but Lilly kept going after her & targeting her, eventually Lilly provoked her. In her position, she doesn't say anything bad about Lilly, doesn't argue with her, shows concern for her and helps protect the group all in 3 months and out of nowhere she starts being harassed by her without a reason and to top it off, she starts harassing and pressure a weak teen to finger her as a culprit without any evidence, anyone would've went off on Lilly. Getting accused by a crazy bitch doesn't take away your right to defend yourself.
How was Carley supposed to know Lilly had a murderous tendency? How many arguments end in a bloodshed?
Yeah her dad died but like everybody else, she suffered a tragic loss but they don't act the way Lilly does.
Maybe but how many were they close to died right in front of them? I mean seeing the one your most close to die right In front of you would change anyone
Well then Lee has a excuse to murder anyone, so does Kenny Ben Carley, every body should have killed someone if seeing someone you like die in front of you, yes it hardens you and you might be bitter and sad but you can not flip and kill someone, okay then by that logic say one of my pets dies of natural causes, I get sad and depressed and then when someone by accident ticks me off I have the right to kill your best friend just because he made be mad, he is not my friend so I won't care, I am pretty sure you would not like me then but since it's the same situation as Lilly we will still be friends because that is how it works for you, good job.
Maybe but how many were they close to died right in front of them? I mean seeing the one your most close to die right In front of you would change anyone
Rick Grimes, Allen, Kenny, Andrea, Tyreese, Spencer & Douglas Monroe and The Greene Family to name a few. They didn't go around gunning down an innocent person from their own group for nothing now did they.
There's something uncomfortably bloodthirsty about this thread. Lily's actions might be reprehensible, but the ways in which some forum members feel she should be punished is downright unsettling.
Ditching Lily was brutal enough. If she ran off in the RV, she wasn't going to get very far. Either way, she's probably zombie chow. And if she isn't, Telltale will let us know. But let's not turn into a lynch mob over a video game character.
Pretty much sums it up. Leaving her for dead is hardly a slap on the wrist.
I've seen a few of these threads, and I notice that they seem to have a tendency to turn into a Lilly vs. Kenny debate. Which I think is kind of a false choice because I hated both of them. That said, as much as I hated Kenny, I find Lilly's actions to be far, far worse than anything Kenny did. And the number of posts I keep seeing arguing in defense of and asking us to feel sorry for her committing a completely unjustified, cold-blooded murder is, frankly, kind of horrifying.
"Kenny did the same thing when he killed Larry."
First, I condemned Kenny for that act as well. It's one of many reasons why I hated him. That doesn't justify what Lilly did. Even grade-schoolers are taught that two wrongs don't make a right.
Second, the situations aren't at all analogous. Kenny did what he did out of fear for his life and the lives of his friends and family. I would say that he rushed to judgment, as there was no proof that Larry was dead yet. But the fact remains that Larry at the time presented an undeniable imminent threat. Reanimation times in TWD are seen to vary wildly, but the group had seen earlier that day that it can happen in a matter of minutes, if not seconds.
Lilly, on the other hand, was defending neither herself nor anyone else. Doug or Carley presented no threat whatsoever. The worst Lilly was in danger of was Carley not being very nice to her while she went around falsely accusing everyone in the group. There is no way to argue that this was anything close to justifiable. It was just Lilly throwing a tantrum.
"Lilly had just lost her father and was under a lot of stress."
So what? People sometimes have to deal with stressful circumstances. People sometimes lose loved ones. That's true even in today's world. In the world of TWD, there's not a single person alive who hasn't gone through just as much as Lilly has, and yet they somehow manage to not go around randomly shooting people in the head. Being under a lot of stress doesn't mean you get to do whatever the hell you want.
"Carley shouldn't have pushed Lilly so much because she knew that Lilly was grieving."
This is blaming-the-victim nonsense. Again, however much stress she may have been under, that doesn't justify murder. I may feel bad about her losing her dad, but sympathy can only be taken so far. Furthermore, Carley's response was completely proportional to Lilly's accusations. Lilly was on a witch hunt, plain and simple, and she needed to be reigned in. If Lilly couldn't take the reactions, maybe she shouldn't have gone off on such a hysterical rant. Those saying how cruel it was to leave her by the side of the road by herself should remember that Lilly clearly intended to do just that (or possibly worse) to someone else. Except whereas everyone had seen Lilly commit a crime right in front of them, Lilly had no evidence at all that any of them were guilty. The fact that Ben actually did turn out to be the traitor is a technicality. Lilly had absolutely no proof of that at the time. She was simply waving her finger at anyone who seemed convenient to blame.
"It's actually Ben's fault for not stepping forward."
So I'm in the minority that thinks that what Ben did wasn't as bad as everyone seems to make it out to be. But I'll cede that point for the sake of argument. Let's say the whole situation with the bandits and being forced to leave the motel was entirely Ben's fault. And let's even say that he was wrong not to speak up at the time, even though it was pretty obvious that Lilly wasn't going to give him anything even slightly resembling a fair hearing-out. Here we return again to the "two wrongs don't make a right" principle. Ben didn't force Lilly to pull the trigger. That was a decision she made on her own. And whatever wrongs he may have committed, that still in no way justifies Lilly murdering someone who had absolutely nothing to do with those actions.
So bringing this (finally) back around to the original topic...
On my first playthrough, I started out playing my Lee as someone trying to genuinely do the right thing. But when Lilly killed Carley, it was the first time in the game that I stopped caring about that. Lilly had crossed the line, and she needed to be punished for it. There was not a single other character I wanted dead as much as her. Not Kenny, not Larry, not even the Stranger. And she was one of the few characters who couldn't die at all (at least, not definitively so). So I just left her on the road, and I was forced to be content with the thought that she probably died shortly thereafter. But it wasn't the most satisfying ending. It lacked a certain closure.
The problem with going after Lilly if she reappears in Season 2 would be that we'd be playing someone other than Lee. Our protagonist won't have the same emotional attachment to Lilly's victim and may not even know what a murderous psychopath she is. I usually try to play my characters "in-character," without bringing in outside player knowledge. So my S2 character wouldn't necessarily have any reason to punish Lilly.
On the other hand, I really hate Lilly. So I might be willing to make an exception for her just to get the satisfaction I wasn't allowed in Season 1.
That said, the discussion is probably irrelevant because I doubt she'll be appearing in S2.
Comments
Kenny and Lilly are as good and as bad as each other, so if Kenny can be given the opportunity for redemption, why can't Lilly?
And I'm assuming that you're talking about when you bring Lilly with you after the Carley/Doug incident. Fine, I can't really argue that. But it's not as if she had left them with no shelter. The train was there, and they took it. And she stole the van because she didn't want to stick around and wait to see if she would be executed or not. It wasn't the right thing, but it was the smart thing, and Kenny would have done just the same if he was in her shoes.
Ditching Lily was brutal enough. If she ran off in the RV, she wasn't going to get very far. Either way, she's probably zombie chow. And if she isn't, Telltale will let us know. But let's not turn into a lynch mob over a video game character.
Well before episode 3 people were calling out for Kenny's blood because he killed Larry and that he left Lee behind and people wanted Duck death and after episode 3 people then started the traditional " Wanting Ben death and his head on a silver plater " .
I'm not bloodthirsty , i'm just angry how Lilly does not even feel regret about killing Carley or accidently killing Doug and does not even want to face consequences .
I wasn't on the forum during those days, so I haven't become completely desensitized to Telltale screwing around with my emotions yet. :rolleyes:
And about Kenny killing her dad, the way it happend in my story, he had valid reasons. And Larry was an big asshole anyway, he didn't care about anyone in the group.
I still think Kenny was impulsive because he was impatient and fearful of what would become of his family if he didn't get to them soon. The fact is, if that was his wife or son he would not have done what he did without confirming they had turned.
I think he should have held the salt lick above Larry but should have waited to drop it. It's about compassion at the end of the day. This scenario was also in the comics when a character's wife had hung herself, her husband wanted to do CPR on her and another character, like Kenny wanted to kill her before she turned. He had a gun pointed at her and was about to shoot until Rick stopped him by aiming at him. It turned out that it was possible to save her and she was brought back with CPR. The point there was that Rick and co felt that they should at least try. That was the humane thing to do.
Some will argue that they weren't in a locked room but I will argue that the character attempting CPR was just as close to her body as Lee and Lilly were to Larry. They took the risk out of compassion and the desire to preserve life. Kenny was driving the RV with a bitten child that could have turned and bitten his mother and Kenny and wanted Duck to remain on the moving train putting everyone at risk, why? out of love for his son. So I don't see Kenny's decision to kill Larry being out of logic if so where was that logic when his bitten son was kept on the train?
When you tell Kenny's wife what he did in the meat locker she is heartbroken. Seeing the lengths he would go to and seeing him give up his humanity no doubt contributed to her decision to kill herself. Kenny was no longer the man she fell in love with. The apocalypse changed him and her view of him, causing her to abandon hope.
As for Lilly I can't make excuses for what she did but I would say that Carly didn't help matters. Lilly was a ticking time bomb, for good reason. She was coming apart, was losing control and her position in the group. She was the group’s leader and was undermined and often disregarded even when her choices were the right ones and were best for the group.
She always disagreed with Ben joining the group, she was disregarded and Ben joined anyway. She had suspicions of a traitor being in the group and was dismissed and considered paranoid. She calls out Ben because of her gut feeling. Everyone again dismissed it and told her Ben was innocent. She has the frustration of knowing Ben is guilty and she can't get the others to see it, she's flustered and unfocussed because she is sleep deprived and sounds like she's spouting nonsense to the group, then Carly calls her daddy's little princess amongst other things after her dad was brutally destroyed inches away from her, is it any wonder she snapped in the heat of the moment?
In the Doug scenario she wanted to kill Ben, the guilty wolf in sheep’s clothing, the traitor in the group that had divided loyalties and sneaked supplies to the bandits to keep his true friends who he believed were their prisoners from harm. Whose lies and sneaky behaviour cost them the safety of the motor inn and most of their supplies. Hell, I would have wanted to shoot him myself. Come to think of it I actually found the game more rewarding and enjoyable when I let Ben die at Crawford and I wasn't going through the mental breakdown Lilly was going through. So I can see why she snapped.
In light of all the good she did I still see her as one of the best characters in Lee's group, she did save them from the bandits and clean up Ben's mess after all and that was after her mental health diminished. By that I mean she took back the leader role and instructed Lee to keep the bandits distracted whilst she took up a vantage point and took them out with her sniper.
I'm not saying she was right for killing Carly or wanting to kill Ben but I can't blame her in light of the bigger picture. If I saw her in season 2 I wouldn't want to punish her. She has been punished enough, in fact she was punished before she did anything wrong, she was punished by her dad being slain prematurely.
To quote Lee in one of the dialogue options, Kenny was no hero.
There was no vote or nothing. It was the case of i'm gonna kill this guy and fuck anyone who gets in my way. On the train it's the same thing. My bitten son duck is getting on this train and I don't wanna here anything about, no vote, my decision is final, i'm gonna keep driving this train and fuck anyone who get's in my way. See the pattern?
I think Larry could have been saved and I think telltale put an Easter egg in the game where Larry shows signs of waking up just before the salt lick lands on his head if you do enough chest compressions. Based on my view that Larry was as much dead as Maggie was in the comics when they did CPR and brought her back to life I think Kenny jumped the gun in his panicked state and set a chain of events in motion with dire consequences.
As for Larry I thought he was a prick in the beginning but he grew on me by episode 2. He was like your typical pantomime villain "he's behind you" etc and I found it funny when he wanted to argue with Lee but I agreed with him and left him stuck for words. I thought seeing his daughter grow close to me would really piss him off. I would have wanted him to stay around for those reasons alone.
Duck didn't bother me at all. I saw him as a playmate for Clem.
Well, I had an epic, disarming response prepared for almost all of this, but attempted to post and lost it. So, a quick summary...
I remember that scene from the comics. They had weapons, in addition to not being locked in a room. There was nothing in the meat locker aside from saltlicks. Without weapons, Larry would have killed everyone in the meat locker if he had reanimated.
Carley may not have helped but Lilly didn't have the right to shoot anyone because her father died. Lee and Kenny both lost their families, but refrained from randomly shooting at group members like it was a carnival game. Wanting to deal with the traitor? That's fine, as long as you remember you are part of a group. She took power into her own hands.
What do you get from siding with Lilly? Abandoned on the side of the road. That is even IF you side with her at every opportunity. She lies to you, then leaves 3 adults, 2 children, and an idiot traitor to die on the side of the road, simply because they were discussing what to do with her after she murdered someone. If that trian hadn't worked, the rest of the group would have died because of her. That includes her best, no, ONLY friend, if you consistently sided with her. Say what you will about Kenny, but if you have his back, he'll have yours, unconditionally. That's more than Lilly can offer.
I still won't punish her if she appears in Season 2. I left her on the side of the road, which is enough for me even if she survives. If I had taken her with me for some reason, and she screwed me over after giving her that chance, it would be another story.
Until then anyone else she meets is just going to know here as a crabby girl who was in the military. Unless she says anything about herself more then that. I doubt she is going to tell the group she joins up with (if she does) that she shot Carley because she was getting ticked off and upset that she was getting closer to Lee, or that she shot Doug because he jumped in the way.
Ignoring the fact she hardly did anything to contribute to the the group, Episode 3 showed her true colors, she didn't give a damn about anyone else but herself and her dad. Some people condemn Kenny for what he did but what Lilly did was much worse and if Kenny didn't deserve to live, surely she shouldn't aswell.
I'm hoping she appears in Season 2 as an antagonist but not as the main one as I'm sure Telltale can think of a better one. If the season 2 protagonist meets her, he won't know her past unless he meets Clementine which I doubt will happen but will catch on that she did something bad due to her hostile attitude and the conversations you'll have with her regarding her previous group(If telltale makes him smart), knowing Lilly she'll probably start acting like she's in charge(maybe start sleeping with the leader in order to get special treatment) which will lead to arguments between you and her, eventually she pulls a gun on you if you decide to do things your way or help someone in need then when push comes to shove, she'll decide to take you out for undermining her authority by leaving you to die with either shooting you in the leg(Shane Style) or locking you out(Rick Style) after which she'll confess that she killed someone and didn't give damn, I can picture her with a sinister smile, that or they can make the protagonist Carley's brother which would give him a legitimate motive to kill her. It's the least Telltale can do after rubbing Carley's corpse in our face in 400 Days.
Her face was more like "Shit, I'm Screwed" considering her first words were "She couldn't be trusted" showing no sign of regret. If you take her with you, she'll look sad & depressed throughout the journey but when your back is turned looking for the pencil, her expressions quickly change to "I don't give a rats ass what I did". She was making you feel sorry for her with her sad face just so they can go easy on her.
I know her dad died but if she killed Kenny, I honestly would understand but she didn't, she killed the useful & caring member in her group for what? because she refused to be bullied by her. Each member in the group lost someone but you don't see them bullying, threatening & killing someone for nothing.
Killing someone due to a tragic loss which has nothing to do with them is never a good reason. The Governor murders people for nothing but should he get off because he lost his niece & brother?
If killing an innocent person in cold blood & leaving a group to die is not evil then I don't know what is.
I thought she would at least do something to Ben exile him or something like that
Well said Bioshock
But she didn't, she tries to kill him(If you saved Doug) but with Carley, she shifts her temper on her, using the traitor excuse to bully her, notice how she doesn't accuse Doug.
Carley in my opinion still should of backed off before she went off on Lilly I'm not giving Lilly an excuse at all but we both know she wasn't in the right state of mind when she did what she did
I see a lot of this where Carley gets blamed but I'm sorry, what exactly what she supposed to do?
Stand there a be bullied and allow Lilly to threaten & push a scared teenager to falsely admitting that she was a traitor so she can throw her out in the dark with flesh eating zombies everywhere?
She tried being calm, patient, talk calmly & take their time with finding out who the traitor is before making rash decisions but Lilly kept going after her & targeting her without a second thought, eventually Lilly provoked her. In her position, she doesn't say anything bad about Lilly, doesn't argue with her, shows concern for her and helps protect the group all in 3 months and out of nowhere she starts being harassed by her without a reason and to top it off, she starts harassing and pressure a weak teen to finger her as a culprit without any evidence, anyone would've went off on Lilly. Getting accused by a crazy bitch doesn't take away your right to defend yourself.
How was Carley supposed to know Lilly had a murderous tendency? How many arguments end in a bloodshed?
Yeah her dad died but like everybody else, she suffered a tragic loss but they don't act the way Lilly does.
Rick Grimes, Allen, Kenny, Andrea, Tyreese, Spencer & Douglas Monroe and The Greene Family to name a few. They didn't go around gunning down an innocent person from their own group for nothing now did they.
Obvious figure of speech. I'm saying that people should see the difference in leaving someone to die and letting someone off scot-free.
"Kenny did the same thing when he killed Larry."
First, I condemned Kenny for that act as well. It's one of many reasons why I hated him. That doesn't justify what Lilly did. Even grade-schoolers are taught that two wrongs don't make a right.
Second, the situations aren't at all analogous. Kenny did what he did out of fear for his life and the lives of his friends and family. I would say that he rushed to judgment, as there was no proof that Larry was dead yet. But the fact remains that Larry at the time presented an undeniable imminent threat. Reanimation times in TWD are seen to vary wildly, but the group had seen earlier that day that it can happen in a matter of minutes, if not seconds.
Lilly, on the other hand, was defending neither herself nor anyone else. Doug or Carley presented no threat whatsoever. The worst Lilly was in danger of was Carley not being very nice to her while she went around falsely accusing everyone in the group. There is no way to argue that this was anything close to justifiable. It was just Lilly throwing a tantrum.
"Lilly had just lost her father and was under a lot of stress."
So what? People sometimes have to deal with stressful circumstances. People sometimes lose loved ones. That's true even in today's world. In the world of TWD, there's not a single person alive who hasn't gone through just as much as Lilly has, and yet they somehow manage to not go around randomly shooting people in the head. Being under a lot of stress doesn't mean you get to do whatever the hell you want.
"Carley shouldn't have pushed Lilly so much because she knew that Lilly was grieving."
This is blaming-the-victim nonsense. Again, however much stress she may have been under, that doesn't justify murder. I may feel bad about her losing her dad, but sympathy can only be taken so far. Furthermore, Carley's response was completely proportional to Lilly's accusations. Lilly was on a witch hunt, plain and simple, and she needed to be reigned in. If Lilly couldn't take the reactions, maybe she shouldn't have gone off on such a hysterical rant. Those saying how cruel it was to leave her by the side of the road by herself should remember that Lilly clearly intended to do just that (or possibly worse) to someone else. Except whereas everyone had seen Lilly commit a crime right in front of them, Lilly had no evidence at all that any of them were guilty. The fact that Ben actually did turn out to be the traitor is a technicality. Lilly had absolutely no proof of that at the time. She was simply waving her finger at anyone who seemed convenient to blame.
"It's actually Ben's fault for not stepping forward."
So I'm in the minority that thinks that what Ben did wasn't as bad as everyone seems to make it out to be. But I'll cede that point for the sake of argument. Let's say the whole situation with the bandits and being forced to leave the motel was entirely Ben's fault. And let's even say that he was wrong not to speak up at the time, even though it was pretty obvious that Lilly wasn't going to give him anything even slightly resembling a fair hearing-out. Here we return again to the "two wrongs don't make a right" principle. Ben didn't force Lilly to pull the trigger. That was a decision she made on her own. And whatever wrongs he may have committed, that still in no way justifies Lilly murdering someone who had absolutely nothing to do with those actions.
So bringing this (finally) back around to the original topic...
On my first playthrough, I started out playing my Lee as someone trying to genuinely do the right thing. But when Lilly killed Carley, it was the first time in the game that I stopped caring about that. Lilly had crossed the line, and she needed to be punished for it. There was not a single other character I wanted dead as much as her. Not Kenny, not Larry, not even the Stranger. And she was one of the few characters who couldn't die at all (at least, not definitively so). So I just left her on the road, and I was forced to be content with the thought that she probably died shortly thereafter. But it wasn't the most satisfying ending. It lacked a certain closure.
The problem with going after Lilly if she reappears in Season 2 would be that we'd be playing someone other than Lee. Our protagonist won't have the same emotional attachment to Lilly's victim and may not even know what a murderous psychopath she is. I usually try to play my characters "in-character," without bringing in outside player knowledge. So my S2 character wouldn't necessarily have any reason to punish Lilly.
On the other hand, I really hate Lilly. So I might be willing to make an exception for her just to get the satisfaction I wasn't allowed in Season 1.
That said, the discussion is probably irrelevant because I doubt she'll be appearing in S2.