Any leader who can keep their group alive without killing others for no reason is a good leader. The only place Lilly lacked was in keeping morale high.
It's not about morale. She was too weak to be leader. Her father's brutal death, bandits attacks, Kenny, vanishing supplies, paranoia - it was too much for her.
Lee - "Lilly, it was hard time for you - Larry's death, dairy, bandits. I think you should rest. I'll command the group until you feel better. Group agrees."
Too bad it didn't happen.
Any leader who can keep their group alive without killing others for no reason is a good leader. The only place Lilly lacked was in keeping morale high.
thats some low standards you have for a good leader, i think lilly lacked in the doing anything department as well, the only thing there is proof she actually did was training people with guns and keeping lists of supplies, while everyone else went out risking their lives to get food and supplies, and she lacked in the helping others/humanity department, she didn't want to save Lee and his group, Glenn and Carley had to disobey orders to save them and she complained about saving the life of Ben, plus she only accepted Mark because he had food.
being a good person would be at the top of the list of thing a good leader must be and actively helping people would be a close second
Just her father's brutal death. That sparked everything else. If she were out of power for a while to grieve, and Ben didn't colossally fuck up, they would've lived for a very long time.
Security: Lilly had a watch guard, Roman had walkers used as alarm systems, very creative.
+Roman
Usefulness: Lilly has clearly been shown guarding the motor inn and she clearly tries to take care of the group, but she focuses more towards herself and Larry, while Roman is nearly identical except he has no family to put first, so group security is number one priority.
+Roman
Trust: Lilly was willing to execute a group member with no solid evidence that they betrayed the group (Either shooting Carley or trying to shoot Ben). Roman was willing to let the thief they caught red handed go free rather than shoot him. (If you don't choose yourself).
+Roman
Roman may not be the smartest person, but from what I've seen he is the most logical of the two and as much as I like Lilly, she's not someone I'd want leading the group I'm in.
Between Lily and Roman I'd much rather have Roman as the leader. Yertos pretty much listed the reasons but I also must add that Roman also has a more level-headed personality which makes him seem more like someone you can rely on. He pretty much kept his cool in every situation and he also had the interests of his people as priority, letting them decide about things as a group. He's controlling them rather subtly and doesn't come across as condescending or impulsive as Lily does. He doesn't point fingers or yell how the others make sucky choices. He gathers them as a group and let's them vote about things. He explains his reasonings in a calm and collected manner and also remembers to remind his people that he'll be supporting them (like he says to Shel when she needs to shoot Stephanie). Lily's kind of aggressive attitude can cause a lot of unnecessary drama so this is one of the reasons why I'd personally rather see someone like Roman as the leader. I don't think someone like Lily could actually get my loyalty because while she indeed has good intentions, she just doesn't really manage to "act" the part and seem like someone who has it under control.
Ah, a fixer.
Somebody beat foreign guy before. He couldn't communicate. He was defenceless. Don't you remember? "I'll take it upon myself", Roman - what a hero!
Point is - Lilly was right. Bringing more people to the camp was big mistake. Not enough food for her people. Nothing for new. Lilly never asked about killing Ben and his friend/teacher. Roman had food but asked.
Lilly tried to talk with suspects. We don't know Stephanie's reasons. Maybe she was framed? "She didn't give two shits about us when she tried to leave with literally everything we need to survive" - it is only Roman's version.
You think that if Lilly caught that same defenseless guy breaking into the motor inn and stealing stuff, she wouldn't have just shot him on the spot and screeched at anyone who questioned what she did?
And if by "talk with suspects" you mean "scare suspects into confessing and/or turning on a person that she hates so she has an excuse to shoot someone" then yes Lilly tried to talk with suspects. And look, she ended up not needing the excuse after all.
Lee - "Lilly, it was hard time for you - Larry's death, dairy, bandits. I think you should rest. I'll command the group until you feel better. Group agrees."
Too bad it didn't happen.
Yeah, that would have gone over well with Lilly. I'm sure she would have just calmly stepped back and let someone else handle things. :rolleyes:
You think that if Lilly caught that same defenseless guy breaking into the motor inn and stealing stuff, she wouldn't have just shot him on the spot and screeched at anyone who questioned what she did?
And if by "talk with suspects" you mean "scare suspects into confessing and/or turning on a person that she hates so she has an excuse to shoot someone" then yes Lilly tried to talk with suspects. And look, she ended up not needing the excuse after all.
Yeah, that would have gone over well with Lilly. I'm sure she would have just calmly stepped back and let someone else handle things. :rolleyes:
To be fair, she'd probably be a bit more reasonable if all that crap happened before she went nuts.
More reasonable yes. But even pre-saltlicked Larry, I think she would have killed any intruder on her own rather than tying them up and letting the group decide what to do. And as long as Larry was around, she was not going to let anyone else take charge. She listens to everything he says and he was pushing her to be more and more of a control freak.
But she did say "we shouldn't just kick you out, we should here what everybody thinks" first when she was accusing Ben and Carley. Immediately before murdering someone... Never mind.:D
Count me in on team Roman. Lilly was clearly not fit to be in a leadership role right from the start. Anytime something goes wrong, she immediately jumps to yelling and intimidation. She clearly had issues dealing with her father's condition. He has a problem, she breaks down with worry, completely ignoring her duty as a leader.
Roman, on the other hand, was always calm. When there was time, he was friendly and supportive (like after Becca's guitar recital, or Boyd's fresh soup). Even when things went south, he was rational. Extreme, yes, but rational. I will say that I disagree with not allowing people to leave, simply on the grounds that their position was not a secret. It was a rest stop in the middle of a field. Had Stephanie tried to run away and that was it (no taking a large amount of survival gear), I would absolutely oppose Roman, but that's not what happened. He wasn't happy about it, but he did warn the group what would happen if they had another incident. Stephanie knew what she was doing.
You think that if Lilly caught that same defenseless guy breaking into the motor inn and stealing stuff, she wouldn't have just shot him on the spot and screeched at anyone who questioned what she did?
I can't say for sure what Lilly would do. Focus on the facts.
Shel's group had two thieves and one traitor. Lilly's group - one traitor. Point for Lilly for better security. And Ben stayed in camp.
And if by "talk with suspects" you mean "scare suspects into confessing and/or turning on a person that she hates so she has an excuse to shoot someone" then yes Lilly tried to talk with suspects. And look, she ended up not needing the excuse after all.
Lilly - uhm, Ben, you know, I think somebody was giving our supplies to those noisy masked people who tried to kill us recently, do you know anything about it, no, no, do not worry, I'm sure you are innocent, just want to know...
Yeah, good luck.
She felt betrayed, she was unstable, but she was right.
Death of Carley was effect of what she said to Lilly.
Roman didn't give Stephanie a chance to talk. Naturally, she would beg for mercy. Shel would listen. He wanted to avoid it, he wanted her dead.
Yeah, that would have gone over well with Lilly. I'm sure she would have just calmly stepped back and let someone else handle things.
In my game, Lee didn't kill Larry. Yes, there was a chance. If the group would choose new leader, what would she do? Start shooting? She wasn't that crazy.
I can't say for sure what Lilly would do. Focus on the facts.
Shel's group had two thieves and one traitor. Lilly's group - one traitor. Point for Lilly for better security. And Ben stayed in camp.
One of the thieves was neutralized by Roman and thus shouldn't count since he didn't end up getting away with anything. And Lilly's group also had a fuckton of bandits shooting crossbow bolts outside their walls and who apparently could have stormed the motor inn at any time if they got pissed off enough.
But this is all besides the point. It just doesn't make sense to judge how well each leader secured their respective groups based on the number of people who fucked with them. The two groups faced different external threats.
Lilly - uhm, Ben, you know, I think somebody was giving our supplies to those noisy masked people who tried to kill us recently, do you know anything about it, no, no, do not worry, I'm sure you are innocent, just want to know...
Yeah, good luck.
She felt betrayed, she was unstable, but she was right. Death of Carley was effect of what she said to Lilly.
Roman didn't give Stephanie a chance to talk. Naturally, she would beg for mercy. Shel would listen. He wanted to avoid it, he wanted her dead.
And that's not a huge fucking deal to you?! Shooting someone in your group in the face because they were mouthing off? When Shel told Roman to go fuck himself, he didn't even flinch. As soon as Carley decided to stand up for herself against Lilly's witch-hunt against her, *BOOM* dead.
Yes, Lilly was right about someone stealing supplies. She had the right information (after all, SHE was the one being stolen from, not the group itself). But, in the end, she still did the wrong thing. You keep saying that she was "unstable" like that somehow vindicates her. It doesn't. She wasn't in a position to lead and yet she kept leading and insisting that everybody go along with her. And people died as a result. That's a bad leader.
In my game, Lee didn't kill Larry. Yes, there was a chance. If the group would choose new leader, what would she do? Start shooting? She wasn't that crazy.
Every time Lee even mentioned how she wasn't getting any sleep or told her that she needed to calm down, she got extremely defensive. It looked to me like she was never going to give up leadership to anybody.
I can't say for sure what Lilly would do. Focus on the facts. Shel's group had two thieves and one traitor. Lilly's group - one traitor. Point for Lilly for better security. And Ben stayed in camp.
Uhh... Did you forget the lady in the woods who somehow stole Clementine's hat? She made it clear that she intended to take Clem next. Sounds like a thief got in and out scott-free. Roman's group at least noticed in time to give chase. The next two instances, they caught the perpetrator.
It's really not about how many thieves sneak in. It's bound to happen in a situation like this where everyone you meet is likely desperate enough to hurt you so that they may continue. The focus should be on how the situation is resolved. Like I said, nothing slipped by Roman. He gave heavy pursuit to the first, and caught the next two. Lilly let her first thief get away unnoticed, and the second managed to repeatedly steal from under her nose. She then used the thefts as an excuse to badger and kill someone she didn't like rather than actually looking at the facts to find the true thief. Even if you saved Doug, she has no evidence and convicts Ben on the spot.
The problem with Lilly as the leader is that she was ineffective. She would yell and swear at people, but she never actually did anything. Roman made everything clear, and was the first to step up when things went south. He didn't just decide to shoot Stephanie for mouthing off, or on a mere suspicion. She was caught stealing a bunch of supplies after he made it clear that there would be no more risks taken. You could tell he wasn't happy about the situation, but that he knew exactly what he was doing (a sign of a good leader, even if he was harsh).
Comments
Lee - "Lilly, it was hard time for you - Larry's death, dairy, bandits. I think you should rest. I'll command the group until you feel better. Group agrees."
Too bad it didn't happen.
thats some low standards you have for a good leader, i think lilly lacked in the doing anything department as well, the only thing there is proof she actually did was training people with guns and keeping lists of supplies, while everyone else went out risking their lives to get food and supplies, and she lacked in the helping others/humanity department, she didn't want to save Lee and his group, Glenn and Carley had to disobey orders to save them and she complained about saving the life of Ben, plus she only accepted Mark because he had food.
being a good person would be at the top of the list of thing a good leader must be and actively helping people would be a close second
+Roman
Usefulness: Lilly has clearly been shown guarding the motor inn and she clearly tries to take care of the group, but she focuses more towards herself and Larry, while Roman is nearly identical except he has no family to put first, so group security is number one priority.
+Roman
Trust: Lilly was willing to execute a group member with no solid evidence that they betrayed the group (Either shooting Carley or trying to shoot Ben). Roman was willing to let the thief they caught red handed go free rather than shoot him. (If you don't choose yourself).
+Roman
Roman may not be the smartest person, but from what I've seen he is the most logical of the two and as much as I like Lilly, she's not someone I'd want leading the group I'm in.
You think that if Lilly caught that same defenseless guy breaking into the motor inn and stealing stuff, she wouldn't have just shot him on the spot and screeched at anyone who questioned what she did?
And if by "talk with suspects" you mean "scare suspects into confessing and/or turning on a person that she hates so she has an excuse to shoot someone" then yes Lilly tried to talk with suspects. And look, she ended up not needing the excuse after all.
Yeah, that would have gone over well with Lilly. I'm sure she would have just calmly stepped back and let someone else handle things. :rolleyes:
To be fair, she'd probably be a bit more reasonable if all that crap happened before she went nuts.
Roman, on the other hand, was always calm. When there was time, he was friendly and supportive (like after Becca's guitar recital, or Boyd's fresh soup). Even when things went south, he was rational. Extreme, yes, but rational. I will say that I disagree with not allowing people to leave, simply on the grounds that their position was not a secret. It was a rest stop in the middle of a field. Had Stephanie tried to run away and that was it (no taking a large amount of survival gear), I would absolutely oppose Roman, but that's not what happened. He wasn't happy about it, but he did warn the group what would happen if they had another incident. Stephanie knew what she was doing.
I can't say for sure what Lilly would do. Focus on the facts.
Shel's group had two thieves and one traitor. Lilly's group - one traitor. Point for Lilly for better security. And Ben stayed in camp.
And if by "talk with suspects" you mean "scare suspects into confessing and/or turning on a person that she hates so she has an excuse to shoot someone" then yes Lilly tried to talk with suspects. And look, she ended up not needing the excuse after all.
Lilly - uhm, Ben, you know, I think somebody was giving our supplies to those noisy masked people who tried to kill us recently, do you know anything about it, no, no, do not worry, I'm sure you are innocent, just want to know...
Yeah, good luck.
She felt betrayed, she was unstable, but she was right.
Death of Carley was effect of what she said to Lilly.
Roman didn't give Stephanie a chance to talk. Naturally, she would beg for mercy. Shel would listen. He wanted to avoid it, he wanted her dead.
Yeah, that would have gone over well with Lilly. I'm sure she would have just calmly stepped back and let someone else handle things.
In my game, Lee didn't kill Larry. Yes, there was a chance. If the group would choose new leader, what would she do? Start shooting? She wasn't that crazy.
Shel's group had two thieves and one traitor. Lilly's group - one traitor. Point for Lilly for better security. And Ben stayed in camp.
One of the thieves was neutralized by Roman and thus shouldn't count since he didn't end up getting away with anything. And Lilly's group also had a fuckton of bandits shooting crossbow bolts outside their walls and who apparently could have stormed the motor inn at any time if they got pissed off enough.
But this is all besides the point. It just doesn't make sense to judge how well each leader secured their respective groups based on the number of people who fucked with them. The two groups faced different external threats.
Lilly - uhm, Ben, you know, I think somebody was giving our supplies to those noisy masked people who tried to kill us recently, do you know anything about it, no, no, do not worry, I'm sure you are innocent, just want to know...
Yeah, good luck.
She felt betrayed, she was unstable, but she was right.
Death of Carley was effect of what she said to Lilly.
Roman didn't give Stephanie a chance to talk. Naturally, she would beg for mercy. Shel would listen. He wanted to avoid it, he wanted her dead.
And that's not a huge fucking deal to you?! Shooting someone in your group in the face because they were mouthing off? When Shel told Roman to go fuck himself, he didn't even flinch. As soon as Carley decided to stand up for herself against Lilly's witch-hunt against her, *BOOM* dead.
Yes, Lilly was right about someone stealing supplies. She had the right information (after all, SHE was the one being stolen from, not the group itself). But, in the end, she still did the wrong thing. You keep saying that she was "unstable" like that somehow vindicates her. It doesn't. She wasn't in a position to lead and yet she kept leading and insisting that everybody go along with her. And people died as a result. That's a bad leader.
In my game, Lee didn't kill Larry. Yes, there was a chance. If the group would choose new leader, what would she do? Start shooting? She wasn't that crazy.
Every time Lee even mentioned how she wasn't getting any sleep or told her that she needed to calm down, she got extremely defensive. It looked to me like she was never going to give up leadership to anybody.
Uhh... Did you forget the lady in the woods who somehow stole Clementine's hat? She made it clear that she intended to take Clem next. Sounds like a thief got in and out scott-free. Roman's group at least noticed in time to give chase. The next two instances, they caught the perpetrator.
It's really not about how many thieves sneak in. It's bound to happen in a situation like this where everyone you meet is likely desperate enough to hurt you so that they may continue. The focus should be on how the situation is resolved. Like I said, nothing slipped by Roman. He gave heavy pursuit to the first, and caught the next two. Lilly let her first thief get away unnoticed, and the second managed to repeatedly steal from under her nose. She then used the thefts as an excuse to badger and kill someone she didn't like rather than actually looking at the facts to find the true thief. Even if you saved Doug, she has no evidence and convicts Ben on the spot.
The problem with Lilly as the leader is that she was ineffective. She would yell and swear at people, but she never actually did anything. Roman made everything clear, and was the first to step up when things went south. He didn't just decide to shoot Stephanie for mouthing off, or on a mere suspicion. She was caught stealing a bunch of supplies after he made it clear that there would be no more risks taken. You could tell he wasn't happy about the situation, but that he knew exactly what he was doing (a sign of a good leader, even if he was harsh).