Anyone else feel like ****** was a wasted potential?
Disclaimer: I have already flagged this post for Season 2 Episode 3 spoilers, but be warned that it will also contain spoilers for the Walking Dead TV series.
Now, let's talk William Carver. Anyone else feel like his was a wasted potential? And I'm not just talking about the fact that he was killed off too early- although, despite the awesomeness of his death, I think he was. No, this has more to do with his personality (that ultimately got him killed).
Let's go back to Episode 2. When it left off, I was under impression that Carver was by no means a nice guy- that much was clear. But he was developed just enough for me to assume that he MIGHT be a character of a darker shade of grey for morality. But the Episode 3 went straight down the black road and completely antagonized him. While I found a lot of truth in his speech to Clementine, otherwise the guy was a nutcase, a cruel dictator whose motivations for both sheltering people, seemingly caring for them and simultaneously antagonizing them, are at best, tough to understand or relate to. Ultimately, that sort of behavior got him killed and rightfully so.
This brings me to another disappointing comparison- the Governor from the TV series. Same kind of story- they spent two whole episodes on him, developing him into a morally dark, but still a character you might understand, relate to on some point, agree with maybe- then suddenly went and antagonized him, ruining any and all character development that happened before and taking away any potential the character might have had- shortly before killing him.
In many ways I feel like Carver became the Governor 2,0, They could have gone down a more subtle path- the series doesn't need a clear villain, in my opinion. To me, it would have been so much more interesting if he was kept around longer and wasn't straight up antagonized, like he was. Like, not spending his every on-screen second either beating, killing or otherwise hurting the other characters. I wish they instead gave us more scenes as the one with Carver and Clementine at the office. Where it made me doubt that hey, maybe this guy might have the right idea after all. Hell, I would have absolutely loved it if Carver was more ambiguous and the Episode ended with him and Clementine escaping together (not by choice, perhaps), where later we would have a chance to either have Clementine adopt some of his philosophy about survival, or have them clash. I don't know, maybe that's too extreme, but it would have been preferable to the way it ended now.
What do you people think? Am I alone with such doubts? Humor me.
Now, let's talk William Carver. Anyone else feel like his was a wasted potential? And I'm not just talking about the fact that he was killed off too early- although, despite the awesomeness of his death, I think he was. No, this has more to do with his personality (that ultimately got him killed).
Let's go back to Episode 2. When it left off, I was under impression that Carver was by no means a nice guy- that much was clear. But he was developed just enough for me to assume that he MIGHT be a character of a darker shade of grey for morality. But the Episode 3 went straight down the black road and completely antagonized him. While I found a lot of truth in his speech to Clementine, otherwise the guy was a nutcase, a cruel dictator whose motivations for both sheltering people, seemingly caring for them and simultaneously antagonizing them, are at best, tough to understand or relate to. Ultimately, that sort of behavior got him killed and rightfully so.
This brings me to another disappointing comparison- the Governor from the TV series. Same kind of story- they spent two whole episodes on him, developing him into a morally dark, but still a character you might understand, relate to on some point, agree with maybe- then suddenly went and antagonized him, ruining any and all character development that happened before and taking away any potential the character might have had- shortly before killing him.
In many ways I feel like Carver became the Governor 2,0, They could have gone down a more subtle path- the series doesn't need a clear villain, in my opinion. To me, it would have been so much more interesting if he was kept around longer and wasn't straight up antagonized, like he was. Like, not spending his every on-screen second either beating, killing or otherwise hurting the other characters. I wish they instead gave us more scenes as the one with Carver and Clementine at the office. Where it made me doubt that hey, maybe this guy might have the right idea after all. Hell, I would have absolutely loved it if Carver was more ambiguous and the Episode ended with him and Clementine escaping together (not by choice, perhaps), where later we would have a chance to either have Clementine adopt some of his philosophy about survival, or have them clash. I don't know, maybe that's too extreme, but it would have been preferable to the way it ended now.
What do you people think? Am I alone with such doubts? Humor me.
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Nah but i think he would last the full episode
We've just lost a main villain here and keeping in mind that there are 2 episodes left to go I wonder what TTG has in stock for us
I also hoped we would get more meaningful dialogues with him, understand his reasons and make the player somewhat relate to him. When he threw Reggie of the balcony I knew that won't happen and I felt pretty disappointed. And I would've also loved a way that Clem might escape with him(by choice).
Also, at least The Governor had some development as a character, while Carver had none in my opinion. That is pretty much what I'm sad about.
Also the scene where he backhands Clem for "listening in" on his open conversation with a guard is total bullshit. And then tossing Reggie off the roof when technically he wasn't to blame? That was bullshit too. Felt contrived into making us hate him. I also don't get why he has such a fixation on Rebecca (disregarding the unborn baby), and I was kind of annoyed that their relationship was never explained.
One-dimensional psychopath antagonists are getting so overdone.
I think I do understand his fixation on Rebecca, he does explain his point rather well in the office scene- he believes Rebecca is with his child and wants to raise him to be strong, to be able to survive. THAT part I can get behind. Also, that might somewhat justify his attack of the ski-lodge and his behaviour there.
However, as you mentioned, his other acts throughout the episode felt unnecessary and only put there so even the most machiavellian players would be compelled to hate Carver. And it worked- several scenes into the episode I already saw him as an unredeemable, one dimensional asshole. Which felt like a waste of what might have been the most interesting character in Walking Dead to date.
Here? He hits Clementine for eavesdropping, orders Carlos to smack Sarah for speaking out of turn, kills Reggie for being too soft, tortures Alvin off-screen over this 'George' we never got to hear of (unless I missed a scene somewhere), and bashes Kenny's skull in for stealing a walkie talkie. Considering how he did nothing but antagonise everyone on every scene he shows up, I'm surprised no-one killed him long before he even thought about trying to bring people back to him camp after they fled from him.
The same thing happens with Sarah how she talks to Clem interrupting Carver's speech. This makes Carver mad as he feels it is impolite and not good to interrupt others (Him in particular), so he has Carlos discipline her in way that to some would seem harsh to others would seem like normal physical punishment. The thing with episode 3 is that while I do think if you look hard Carver is still in the moral gray area, it's a lot harder to see. What do I mean by this. Well it's obvious Carver sees strength in numbers which is why he's willing to forgive the cabin group over time, but hates weakness as to him it will lead to death. This can be seen first hand with Reggie, who he felt was now wasted potential. To us as a protagonist this would seem at first unjustified as Clam put it "Your a murderer despite what you call yourself." But at the same time he might have had validation because who knows maybe Reggie was no longer useful (Not saying this is what I think). This is what makes it morally gray.
Another example of this moral Grayness can be seen with Alvin if he survived. As a player who got o know Alvin we think it's wrong to beat the crap out of Alvin, but what makes it morally gray is the fact that Alvin killed someone apparently before this so to /Carver this was vengeance, and understanding this gives a different moral perspective on the situation To put this is into perspective imagine if Carver actually lived, and Rebecca captured him, and then outright tortured him. To someone new who didn't know the back story this would just be moral black rather than gray.
No that being said Carver's personality was easily deciphered from his conversation with Clem in his office as well as his actions. He sees weakness as a hindrance. He has a strong sense of family and keeping what is his (In the case of Rebecca's baby), He is ruthless and has no problems using violence to do what needs to be done. He believes the best form of punishment is physical, and he will kill if he determines someone to be a threat and or hindrance. His thought process is very Darwinistic in the sense he that it feels very much "Survival of the fittest, and those not fit to survive won't"
Now with all this in mind I will say his death was needed at this point. He had already shown his determination to get what he wants and his sense of retribution. Because of this it's a no brainer if he didn't die this episode he would have chased the cabin group to the ends of the Earth if need be. Which i's pretty easy to spell out what would happen then. He finds them, kills 1 or 2 then dies. Keeping him alive would have done nothing other than that. We already saw his character quite clearly and his time was up. Nothing more would have been gained from his character if he lived.
Well that's my overall opinion of Carver an interesting character to say the least.
Yes—that's why I didn't immediately write him off as a tyrannical despot (something which he ultimately proved to be) in EP2. While his methods were brutal, his morals made sense, and he certainly wasn't killing people just for the sake of it or because he perceived them to be weak.
I'm generally not impressed with the character development in EP3, every new character introduced seemed so flat and one-dimensional. The only characters I think who became more established were the already established female characters—Rebecca, Sarah, Bonnie, and Sarita. Which I am glad about. Maybe Luke too since he regarded leaving people behind and seemed to lose hope a few times, which is something of a flaw.
Kenny: Fucke-
*RADIO*
I loved Carver's introduction in episode 2. Cabin scene was so well written and executed that it really stood out as one of the best scenes in all of the episodes. He wasn't violent, though he was really intimidating, I really felt powerless and scared even though he wasn't hurting anybody. In the final scenes of episode 2 he came back, this time more violent, ready to do much to get what he wanted but it didn't make psychopath of him. Yes, we knew at that point he was no good news, after all he killed Walter, tortured Carlos, but he had clear goal in it. We knew his purpose and what made him do it. At that point I felt that he was going to be great villain, 100 times better than Governor or Negan. He was intimidating, scary, intelligent, ready to do what he had to do in order to get what he wanted but not in a way that made him look like a psychopath.
Then in episode 3 it all started going downhill. First he hit Clem which was shocking but really stupid scene. I thought that scene where he makes Carlos slap Sarah would have been excellent if it wasn't ruined by the rest of his violence this episode. I mean, I think that by this he wanted to hurt Carlos more than Sarah. After we saw how much Carver and Carlos hate each other in episode 2, it would only make sense to make Carlos suffer. And how can he make suffer Carlos more than hurting his daughter? Making Carlos hurt his daughter. It was absolutely cruel but really justified story-wise why he would do it. I mean, how did Carlos have to feel after doing it? Of course even worse than after being tortured back in ski lodge.
So I really liked that. And I think it would be great if he punished the group by hard labour or something like that. Even hit Kenny or Carlos or something like that. But I just think that how he treated all the other people this episode showed him as a psychopath. That's why I can't really understand how no one rebelled against him.
I don't understand why no one rebelled against him either, except for the cabin group, sorta. You might argue that with how well they have it made there it's possible for them to just turn a blind eye, but it's not really safe at his camp if people from their own group are being killed and tortured by the one person they should be able to trust to make rational decisions. I guess it *could* just be that they're all extremely brainwashed and emotionally manipulated, but I find that hard to believe.
I do think it might have been a bit much for him to solve literally everything with violence when he first gets on the speaker and preaches about forgiveness and rehabilitation. I was with him on the idea that a lot of people need leaders to look out for them, but it's hard to take him as seriously when he tells Reggie that he is nearly ready to rejoin the group and that he has been doing well, and then he kills him and says he was a constant screw up.
Here it just happened that he suddenly became psychopath...
There's a character in it named Arthur Burns, a bandit living in the wilderness in 19th century Australia. Arthur Burns loves his family and his friends. To them, at least for most of the film, he is polite and kind and gentle, as good a brother and friend as you could hope for. To anyone who isn't one of his family or friends, he is a wild animal, a rapist and a murderer and a monster. To him, no one outside of his little group of family and friends really counts as human, so he is free to do whatever he likes to them without guilt. In the backstory, he is wanted for having raped and murdered a pregnant woman. Nothing is beyond him if you aren't connected to him.
That's kind of how I was hoping Carver would be. His little community is everything to him. If you're in the community, he is a fair-minded leader and a pleasant friend, affable and reasonable. If you aren't in his community, you're nothing more than prey and he'll do whatever horrid thing he feels like to you without the slightest shred of guilt. That's how he wins the loyalty of his followers, but its also what drives the cabin group to abandon him. That abandonment, to him, felt like the worst kind of betrayal. That's why he pursued them so relentlessly.
Basically, Kenny taken to the absolute extremes of darkness, utterly oblivious to anyone who isn't one of his. I think that would have been more intriguing than what we got.
At the lodge, he realizes just how much of an upper hand he has in the stand off with the group. Killing Clem's group brought the party to tears, while his ruthlessness gave him complete disregard for the safety of his own people. He understood the psychology behind the entire situation, and new he won in the end.
Suddenly, when he makes it back to his camp, he goes off the deep end. Forcing Carlos to hit Sara was a very "Carver-like" thing to do. It broke Carlos even more, put Sara in her place, and showed the group just how serious he was.
Then suddenly he kills Reggie over some berries. And beats Kenny nearly to death.
Cut to the scene in the office with Clem and Carver. He talks to Clem and tries to relate them to each other. He knows what Clem is capable of. He also knows that her mentality is extremely similar to his. He has another brilliant moment of psychological awareness.
Had he not had the villainous moments of hitting Clem, Kenny, Reggie, I would have loved Carver as a bad guy. Breaking people psychologically.
Agreed. Wasted potential.
He slaps Clem, orders Carlos to slap Sarah, throws Reggie off a building, and then go's on a stereotypical mad-man rant about "How the weak cannot hold down the strong".
I was just kind of left shaking my head sometimes. So much for Carter being this morally grey kind of antagonist...it really is a shame Telltale decided to turn him into this sort of Saturday morning cartoon villain.
Can you say wasted potential? I can.
What a waste.
I also feel that I'm glad they didn't keep running with Carver, he was too similar to The Governor for my liking. He was well used as a device for giving another layer to Clementine that we hadn't considered: what is she capable of, who is she really.
When Carver told Clementine in his office that they were alike, I was adamant in my defiance of that observation. Though my choices and the potential of other, more desperate choices in the following episodes has led me to question that.