Generally i'm not against innovation on the steering front but a new method needs to be really better than an already existing solution and there somehow should be a need for such a change.
With the so far released games i see more a lack on other fronts like, at least for more experienced adventurers, less convincing content if you compare the games to the best ones which have been made in this genre. TTG adventures are a lot more lacking on the content than on the steering side.
If i'm looking at all the episodes which have been released so far from Bone, Sam&Max, Strong Bad over to Wallace&Gromit then i only could recommend four or five episodes from Sam&Max (the climax for sure was Chariots of the Dogs) and the last episode from Strong Bad.
The rest often appears too flat, sometimes uninspired, too casual and could improve with less dull stories, more interesting dialogues, fresh unique and challenging riddles, generally a less repetitive nature in riddles, actions and locations, no more lackluster licences (of course Sam&Max is great) or your own IP or simply something unique which makes fun and you care about.
If you really want to improve your games, there is quite some work to be done in these areas!
In my opinion TTG always was and is strong on the technical side, things work smooth and fine, no complains here. Same goes for the art departments, may it be music, graphics, animation, mostly convincing. But when i'm reading through interviews such as the one Dan has given then i get the feeling that they either don't see the weak spots on the content side or they just don't care. Instead they prefer improving in aspects were are already strong in further more.
Maybe this makes sense on the economic side and follows a long term master plan. Maybe it takes some time until we'll see also a serie which also targets more the gourmets. Maybe TTG enhances certain aspects also in already existing series, although i somehow doubt it as it never happened up to now.
Right now it seems that they focus on an extending mass market, casual gaming experience and a shiny surface but mediocre content. Seems to sell well enough to go on with but just doesn't please me as someone who is also interested in the inner values of an adventure game.
Let's see which news E3 will bring up. Own IP, an interesting licence, ...?
I hope, if they'll ever do a LucasArts licence, they have more to offer than just the usual casual infusion with some fancy visuals.
I'm not sure where the "no cursor" business is coming from; Wallace & Gromit on the PC has a cursor and uses the mouse.
Note that this doesn't necessarily mean any future games are going to work exactly like W&G; we're still evolving our control schemes and figuring out what works best for the type of game we want to make (W&G is subtly different from Monkey Island is subtly different from Sam & Max), and for whatever platforms we're coming out on. But don't assume that direct control means "no mouse."
We understand that W&G has mouse support, however the problem is it's not really possible to play much of the game using it exclusively. Occasional bouts of direct control are great, but mouse movement is the preferred form of adventure game locomotion for many of us.
I'm not sure where the "no cursor" business is coming from; Wallace & Gromit on the PC has a cursor and uses the mouse.
Note that this doesn't necessarily mean any future games are going to work exactly like W&G; we're still evolving our control schemes and figuring out what works best for the type of game we want to make (W&G is subtly different from Monkey Island is subtly different from Sam & Max), and for whatever platforms we're coming out on. But don't assume that direct control means "no mouse."
But it certainly means you can no longer sit back and use your mouse only to play the game, right ?
Mouse in one hand, cool drink in the other... that's the way it has to be!
But seriously: Telltale started as the saviours of the point-and-click adventure-game genre, and now they are running it into the ground... at least partially. Why is that? I mean, the threads concerning W&G's and ToMI's control-schemes are growing rapidly, which might be an indication how (un)popular the decision is... after all, no other design decision in any of your series caused such an uproar in the community.
I do buy the argument that the cinematic style of the Wallace & Gromit shorts kinda dictates the look of the games, which is somewhat depending on the controls. All right... fine with it... the games look like the shorts, accepted.
But both S&M and MI (the latter even more so than the former) basically INVENTED how point-and-click adventures are supposed to work, and - and these expressions have been used A LOT during this debate - there's no need to re-invent the wheel... never change a winning team... why fix something that ain't broken? Having the games STAY point-and-click (which includes pointing where to walk, clicking, and having the character walk there) is basically dictated by its heritage...
What's happening, Telltale? You used to be so cool... now you're only a normal amount of cool. Please don't heat up!
Let's just wait until we see how it plays before running TT into the ground. It might be better, you never know. It would help porting all their games to multiple systems that don't include a pointer device (XBox LiveArcade).
Of course it also might destroy TT and kill the adventure genre in one quick motion as well, what with the shaky state of growth it's currently in.
I don't get why it can't just be left as the simple mouse driven game... I know you want to sell games on xBox, but you could just let the controller emulate a mouse, if the console players don't like it they could buy a mouse for the console and off you go.... then you could have (basically) the same interface for the xbox, wii, ds, pc, ps3, and psp, one control system that would suit it all, even though it would be best for a console user to buy a cheap mouse to buy a mouse (or can the xbox not support one... in whitch case you're trying to push a new -and unwanted- control system on every-one in the hope of selling a few extra games on a dodgy console, i know ps3 supports a usb mouse).
Whilst I buy it anyhow, please don't blame piracy if you find pc sales drop off with the new control sceme.
(and yess I have tried the W&G demo and found the controls annoying)
I don't get why it can't just be left as the simple mouse driven game... I know you want to sell games on xBox, but you could just let the controller emulate a mouse, if the console players don't like it they could buy a mouse for the console and off you go.... then you could have (basically) the same interface for the xbox, wii, ds, pc, ps3, and psp, one control system that would suit it all, even though it would be best for a console user to buy a cheap mouse to buy a mouse (or can the xbox not support one... in whitch case you're trying to push a new -and unwanted- control system on every-one in the hope of selling a few extra games on a dodgy console, i know ps3 supports a usb mouse).
Whilst I buy it anyhow, please don't blame piracy if you find pc sales drop off with the new control sceme.
(and yess I have tried the W&G demo and found the controls annoying)
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I know I've seen mice (mouses) for consoles being sold.
As much as I don't want to see cursorless navigation in S&M, that is a silly idea. Forcing customers to buy a mouse for their 360 will lose them sales, and having a controller (other than a wiimote) emulate a mouse is clunky and awful.
But it certainly means you can no longer sit back and use your mouse only to play the game, right ?
No. It means, as we've said repeatedly, that we're working on control schemes to support the kind of environments we want to have and the kind of games we want to make. Whether that's keyboard, mouse, a combination of both, neither one and using mind control remains to be seen.
I mean, the threads concerning W&G's and ToMI's control-schemes are growing rapidly, which might be an indication how (un)popular the decision is... after all, no other design decision in any of your series caused such an uproar in the community.
Except for every design decision, from character voices to using 3D instead of 2D to episodic development. The size of those threads "growing rapidly" only indicates that there are several people on the internet who love working themselves into a fury over anything, and that's not news.
When somebody keeps posting the same thing over and over again, across multiple threads and in multiple forums, ignoring every response from the developers and/or dismissing it as "PR speak," and then complaining that the developers aren't responding: that's not an "uproar in the community," that's a tantrum.
But both S&M and MI (the latter even more so than the former) basically INVENTED how point-and-click adventures are supposed to work, and - and these expressions have been used A LOT during this debate - there's no need to re-invent the wheel... never change a winning team... why fix something that ain't broken? Having the games STAY point-and-click (which includes pointing where to walk, clicking, and having the character walk there) is basically dictated by its heritage...
Sam & Max isn't based on Hit the Road; it's based on a comic book. And in the comic book, you're never stuck looking side-on at a street or a room for twenty minutes at a time. The camera's moving around, picking the most interesting angles and giving you the best presentation. We can do that in chores, but not in the main game view. So as far as I'm concerned, having to present every environment as the same side-on three-walled stage set is broken.
The "heritage" you're talking about isn't point and click, it's storytelling and character. Even the SCUMM games changed interfaces with every generation, from lists of verbs to verb coins to keyboard-only controls. Every one of those changes generated a bunch of complaints. Some worked better than others. The point is that the interface didn't stay the same, but the focus on storytelling did.
Our goal is to come up with a way to give that presentation without your even thinking about the controls. "Go back to point and click" doesn't accomplish that.
If you want to make it feel more like the comics, I think there's more value in increasing the amount of onscreen "clutter" than there in in changing up the camera angles. Maybe it's just because the games have so far taken place mostly within a house, but the Wallace and Gromit locations haven't felt more epic or immersive than those in Sam & Max.
"Direct Control" was new and exciting when I was playing Zelda and Mario on my Nintendo 64 (like, really exciting then) but you guys have to know that one of the reasons Telltale Games has been considered awesome is that you were making Point & Click adventures after the rest of the industry had abandoned that interface.
Now I'm perfectly content to play Wallace and Gromit (or even Sam and Max) with a gamepad, but it's definitely a sideways step rather than a step forwards. Hopefully I'll be blown away when I play it, but comparing Wallace and Gromit and Sam & Max in my head now, I just can't envision the change being something that would add much to the Sam and Max series.
To me (and I guess most of the people) your "Sam & Max"-seasons were a follow-up to "Hit the Road"... the comics just served as much as an inspiration as they did for that game.
I guess then it was just my misconception of Telltale being THE "point-and-click-adventure-game-company" out there... with the focus on "telling stories with a classic point-and-click-interface". That's what you were to me, since that's what your first four adventure-game series indicated... looks like things have to change to generate money.
I still don't see how using the keyboard is an evolution. When LucasArts made mouse-based adventure games popular, part of the sales pitch was that you didn't have to use the keyboard anymore like you had in Sierra's Quest games. Using only the mouse for everything was an evolution. When Grim Fandango and EMI went to a keyboard interface, lots of critics complained and cited it as a step backwards. It looks like we're going to go through that cycle again. The only way it can get worse is if they announce a return to the parser as well for a more "literary experience."
looks like things have to change to generate money.
Well, if we can explain what we're doing, and some fans still want to insist that it's just an attempt to go after money, then there's not much we can say to that. Except don't jump to conclusions, keep an open mind, and you might be happy with the end result.
Comments
With the so far released games i see more a lack on other fronts like, at least for more experienced adventurers, less convincing content if you compare the games to the best ones which have been made in this genre. TTG adventures are a lot more lacking on the content than on the steering side.
If i'm looking at all the episodes which have been released so far from Bone, Sam&Max, Strong Bad over to Wallace&Gromit then i only could recommend four or five episodes from Sam&Max (the climax for sure was Chariots of the Dogs) and the last episode from Strong Bad.
The rest often appears too flat, sometimes uninspired, too casual and could improve with less dull stories, more interesting dialogues, fresh unique and challenging riddles, generally a less repetitive nature in riddles, actions and locations, no more lackluster licences (of course Sam&Max is great) or your own IP or simply something unique which makes fun and you care about.
If you really want to improve your games, there is quite some work to be done in these areas!
In my opinion TTG always was and is strong on the technical side, things work smooth and fine, no complains here. Same goes for the art departments, may it be music, graphics, animation, mostly convincing. But when i'm reading through interviews such as the one Dan has given then i get the feeling that they either don't see the weak spots on the content side or they just don't care. Instead they prefer improving in aspects were are already strong in further more.
Maybe this makes sense on the economic side and follows a long term master plan. Maybe it takes some time until we'll see also a serie which also targets more the gourmets. Maybe TTG enhances certain aspects also in already existing series, although i somehow doubt it as it never happened up to now.
Right now it seems that they focus on an extending mass market, casual gaming experience and a shiny surface but mediocre content. Seems to sell well enough to go on with but just doesn't please me as someone who is also interested in the inner values of an adventure game.
Let's see which news E3 will bring up. Own IP, an interesting licence, ...?
I hope, if they'll ever do a LucasArts licence, they have more to offer than just the usual casual infusion with some fancy visuals.
This is the worst game related news I've heard in a long time.
Note that this doesn't necessarily mean any future games are going to work exactly like W&G; we're still evolving our control schemes and figuring out what works best for the type of game we want to make (W&G is subtly different from Monkey Island is subtly different from Sam & Max), and for whatever platforms we're coming out on. But don't assume that direct control means "no mouse."
i will leave my torch and pointy rake for now...
i will leave them close...right where i could see them...¬¬
But it certainly means you can no longer sit back and use your mouse only to play the game, right ?
But seriously: Telltale started as the saviours of the point-and-click adventure-game genre, and now they are running it into the ground... at least partially. Why is that? I mean, the threads concerning W&G's and ToMI's control-schemes are growing rapidly, which might be an indication how (un)popular the decision is... after all, no other design decision in any of your series caused such an uproar in the community.
I do buy the argument that the cinematic style of the Wallace & Gromit shorts kinda dictates the look of the games, which is somewhat depending on the controls. All right... fine with it... the games look like the shorts, accepted.
But both S&M and MI (the latter even more so than the former) basically INVENTED how point-and-click adventures are supposed to work, and - and these expressions have been used A LOT during this debate - there's no need to re-invent the wheel... never change a winning team... why fix something that ain't broken? Having the games STAY point-and-click (which includes pointing where to walk, clicking, and having the character walk there) is basically dictated by its heritage...
What's happening, Telltale? You used to be so cool... now you're only a normal amount of cool. Please don't heat up!
Of course it also might destroy TT and kill the adventure genre in one quick motion as well, what with the shaky state of growth it's currently in.
Amen to that.
Whilst I buy it anyhow, please don't blame piracy if you find pc sales drop off with the new control sceme.
(and yess I have tried the W&G demo and found the controls annoying)
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I know I've seen mice (mouses) for consoles being sold.
Except for every design decision, from character voices to using 3D instead of 2D to episodic development. The size of those threads "growing rapidly" only indicates that there are several people on the internet who love working themselves into a fury over anything, and that's not news.
When somebody keeps posting the same thing over and over again, across multiple threads and in multiple forums, ignoring every response from the developers and/or dismissing it as "PR speak," and then complaining that the developers aren't responding: that's not an "uproar in the community," that's a tantrum.
Sam & Max isn't based on Hit the Road; it's based on a comic book. And in the comic book, you're never stuck looking side-on at a street or a room for twenty minutes at a time. The camera's moving around, picking the most interesting angles and giving you the best presentation. We can do that in chores, but not in the main game view. So as far as I'm concerned, having to present every environment as the same side-on three-walled stage set is broken.
The "heritage" you're talking about isn't point and click, it's storytelling and character. Even the SCUMM games changed interfaces with every generation, from lists of verbs to verb coins to keyboard-only controls. Every one of those changes generated a bunch of complaints. Some worked better than others. The point is that the interface didn't stay the same, but the focus on storytelling did.
Our goal is to come up with a way to give that presentation without your even thinking about the controls. "Go back to point and click" doesn't accomplish that.
"Direct Control" was new and exciting when I was playing Zelda and Mario on my Nintendo 64 (like, really exciting then) but you guys have to know that one of the reasons Telltale Games has been considered awesome is that you were making Point & Click adventures after the rest of the industry had abandoned that interface.
Now I'm perfectly content to play Wallace and Gromit (or even Sam and Max) with a gamepad, but it's definitely a sideways step rather than a step forwards. Hopefully I'll be blown away when I play it, but comparing Wallace and Gromit and Sam & Max in my head now, I just can't envision the change being something that would add much to the Sam and Max series.
I guess then it was just my misconception of Telltale being THE "point-and-click-adventure-game-company" out there... with the focus on "telling stories with a classic point-and-click-interface". That's what you were to me, since that's what your first four adventure-game series indicated... looks like things have to change to generate money.
The next Sam and Max season is going to be a Classic, uber-exciting Text adventure!!!*
*Hitting the stores after failure of TellTale and migration of TellTale employees to a newly born company named <insert new company name here> [Probably LucasArts, again...] to make adventure game for fans who re-opened savesamandmax.com because of BLAH BLAH BLAH (you know the rest)©™£₪Ω