Japanese artwork and anime have a tendency to idealize everything, not just women. Leon from Resident Evil is made to be every bit the perfect male specimen as Jill Valentine is made to be every bit the perfect female specimen. Asking why characters in anime have perfect proportions instead of looking like normal people is the same as asking why characters in Western comic books have perfect proportions instead of looking like normal people.
That's not to say that Japan doesn't have sexist tendencies, because every country does. They do often oversexualize their female characters and maintain somewhat traditional views of gender roles. But to say "Well obviously, it's Japan's fault" is dismissive of the many, many shining examples of strong female characters they've produce in their media.
I was just saying Japan is very sexist towards women, and that is where the majority of games are created/released, i understand Saudi Arabi… morea is bad as well, but it has no correlation in regard to this discussion.
All you have to do is look at Japanese Artwork/ Anime. Come on.
As your example, look at the oversexualization of Jill Valentine. Why can't she just look like a normal girl without a perfect body/breasts/ass whatever. I would rather her be flawed than perfect, because perfection isn't real.
People always want more, especially the ones who complain about things like this. The fact is that there's plenty of female protagonists, ev… moreen if the majority of them aren't in "mainstream" games. Be content with what you already have or simply get over it and move on.
IMO, Game developers want to stay safe by having a male protagonist. It's been this way for a while, and because of this unfortunate tradition, there's hardly any knowledge on how to create a lifelike, relatable, and fleshed out female character. (I'm not referring to Telltale of course).
people who play mobile games aren't gamers (just like people who eat fast food aren't foodies) so stats saying otherwise are really just presenting false information.
anyway, as a man it's not like i and other men don't want playable female characters, however male characters are just more appealing as a concept to play (or watch) to men because it is easier to identify with or put our own thoughts/feeling onto, in the same way that female characters are more appealing to women
most gamers are male, simple as that.
people who play mobile games aren't gamers (just like people who eat fast food aren't foodies) so … morestats saying otherwise are really just presenting false information.
anyway, as a man it's not like i and other men don't want playable female characters, however male characters are just more appealing as a concept to play (or watch) to men because it is easier to identify with or put our own thoughts/feeling onto, in the same way that female characters are more appealing to women
maybe, but you could also argue that only gamers would play adventure games as well, because non gamers would just watch a film or TV show, so that argument is disingenuous, but if people are being honest they know that mobile games just aren't the same as "real" games.
in my analogy about fast food, all food is food, but eating food doesn't make you a foodie, appreciating quality food and trying lots of different types of food makes you a foodie, also eating fast food doesn't make you a foodie, fast food=mobile games, therefore playing mobile games doesn't make you a gamer.
i am not saying girls can't be gamers, i am saying that there have been a few studies used to show that the split of male/female gamers is more even than people think, but they have counted playing mobile games in those statistics, but if they were taken out the result would be more accurate and show a big split between male and female gamer numbers, no matter how much people may want it to be more even, fudging the results of studies doesn't make it so.
If you invest dozens of hours into games, and especially if you invest in the game's characters, stories, and worlds, I'd say you can rightfully call yourself a gamer (and many people who play mobile games would count in my opinion, as story based games are quite popular on mobile platforms, and with women gamers in particular).
Interestingly, Telltale's games are an evolution of the adventure genre, which has always (even in the 80's and 90's) had a large amount of women gamers. Statistically, women in general have always been interested in story based games, and until the late 90's adventure games and RPGs were the genre that had most story based games, so it makes sense that women would flock to those genres.
That's probably why adventure games have had many female protagonists over the years, even at times when other genres were lacking (as early as the 1980's there were female protagonists in adventure games such as Infocom's Plundered Hearts and Sierra's King's Quest IV). Heck, some of the earliest female video game developers were adventure game designers (Roberta Williams, Lori Ann Cole, Jen Sward, Jane Jensen).
that may be true, but adventure games have always been a niche genre, and it doesn't change the fact that most gamers are male and that that is the reason most games have a male player character
edit:
the first paragraph was edited after i said that may be true, dozens of hours in candy crush dean't make you a gamer.
but more response is in my above response to the other comment
If you invest dozens of hours into games, and especially if you invest in the game's characters, stories, and worlds, I'd say you can rightf… moreully call yourself a gamer (and many people who play mobile games would count in my opinion, as story based games are quite popular on mobile platforms, and with women gamers in particular).
Interestingly, Telltale's games are an evolution of the adventure genre, which has always (even in the 80's and 90's) had a large amount of women gamers. Statistically, women in general have always been interested in story based games, and until the late 90's adventure games and RPGs were the genre that had most story based games, so it makes sense that women would flock to those genres.
That's probably why adventure games have had many female protagonists over the years, even at times when other genres were lacking (as early as the 1980's there were female protagonists in adventure games such as Infocom's Plun… [view original content]
You're assuming that all people who play mobile games are the grab and go type, but that isn't true. Adventure games are one of the most popular genres of games on mobile, and they're story based so you have to invest time in the game. Female gamers make up the majority of adventure gamers on mobile devices, so since they are investing a great deal of time in games, it's definitely not disingenuous to include them in statistics.
maybe, but you could also argue that only gamers would play adventure games as well, because non gamers would just watch a film or TV show, … moreso that argument is disingenuous, but if people are being honest they know that mobile games just aren't the same as "real" games.
in my analogy about fast food, all food is food, but eating food doesn't make you a foodie, appreciating quality food and trying lots of different types of food makes you a foodie, also eating fast food doesn't make you a foodie, fast food=mobile games, therefore playing mobile games doesn't make you a gamer.
i am not saying girls can't be gamers, i am saying that there have been a few studies used to show that the split of male/female gamers is more even than people think, but they have counted playing mobile games in those statistics, but if they were taken out the result would be more accurate and show a big split between male and female gamer numbers, no matter how m… [view original content]
The first point is demonstrably untrue as RPGs are among the games that attract women the most. Wanting to actively participate in your fiction is hardly a male-only attribute.
Your argument about being a foodie can also apply to, for instance, people who only play FPSes, or Fighting games, or Adventure games. If appreciating quality food and trying lots of different types of food is what makes you a foodie, then someone who only eats filet mignon and lobster is no more a foodie than someone who only eats Big Macs. So under that view, someone who spends 8 hours a day perfecting speedruns of Donkey Kong Country wouldn't be consider a "true gamer" and that's ridiculous.
It's tricky to pick and choose what does and does not count as a "true game" and a "true gamer." If Pac-Man or Tetris or Asteroids came out today, chances are, they'd be on mobile devices or tablets alongside Angry Birds, Plants vs Zombies, and Candy Crush Saga. Would that undermine their status as games and the status of those people who play them as gamers? Of course not.
maybe, but you could also argue that only gamers would play adventure games as well, because non gamers would just watch a film or TV show, … moreso that argument is disingenuous, but if people are being honest they know that mobile games just aren't the same as "real" games.
in my analogy about fast food, all food is food, but eating food doesn't make you a foodie, appreciating quality food and trying lots of different types of food makes you a foodie, also eating fast food doesn't make you a foodie, fast food=mobile games, therefore playing mobile games doesn't make you a gamer.
i am not saying girls can't be gamers, i am saying that there have been a few studies used to show that the split of male/female gamers is more even than people think, but they have counted playing mobile games in those statistics, but if they were taken out the result would be more accurate and show a big split between male and female gamer numbers, no matter how m… [view original content]
that just isn't true, the most popular games on mobile devices are just the simple grab and go type, simple puzzles games or facebook type game, adventure games may have some popularity, but nowhere near "one of the most popular genres of games on mobile" and it may be true that there are some genuinely good games on mobile devices, they are the exception.
using exceptions is totally disingenuous, eg. you could say that humans have two eyes, and that would be true, you could also say but some humans have zero eyes or one eye, and that would be true, but saying humans have zero eyes would be false
so humans with two eyes= mobile games are simple grab and go games, some humans have 0 or 1 eye= some mobile games are genuinely good, and humans have zero eyes= mobile games are genuinely good
so sure some mobile games are good but it is so rare and most often than not even the good ones don't sell very well so they are statistically insignificant.
and sure " anyone who invests a great deal of time to games, and invests in the game's stories, characters, and worlds, should rightly be able to call themselves gamers." is very true, but the vast majority of mobile games played don't present the opportunity to do that.
and just like my food analogy some fast food is genuinely brilliant, however most is McDonald's but to use the exception is disingenuous and misleading, also eating a lot of it doesn't make someone a foodie
so no i am not "assuming that all people who play mobile games are the grab and go type" that is just a fact, and pretending it isn't is false.
You're assuming that all people who play mobile games are the grab and go type, but that isn't true. Adventure games are one of the most pop… moreular genres of games on mobile, and they're story based so you have to invest time in the game. Female gamers make up the majority of adventure gamers on mobile devices, so since they are investing a great deal of time in games, it's definitely not disingenuous to include them in statistics.
The first point is demonstrably untrue as RPGs are among the games that attract women the most. Wanting to actively participate in your fiction is hardly a male-only attribute.
i have no idea what part of what i said that was a response to, i didn't think i was ever saying that RPGs aren't attractive to women or that wanting to actively participate in fiction is a male-only attribute, i would say that RPGs are attractive to women as with participating in fiction, i really have no idea how you got the impression i said otherwise
but i would agree that someone who only plays one game or one genre isn't a gamer.
and yes the idea of a true gamer is a bit silly, but the fact is that more men play games than women, and any kind of exceptions or specifics, or semantic arguments or a debate about debates is just a distraction, this is how most debates always end and up and it is just counter productive.
the simple question was
How come there isn't a lot of female main playable characters in video games?
and the simple answer is:
more men play games than women.
you could spend forever getting into the intricacies and the semantic arguments, but that is the simple answer
The first point is demonstrably untrue as RPGs are among the games that attract women the most. Wanting to actively participate in your fict… moreion is hardly a male-only attribute.
Your argument about being a foodie can also apply to, for instance, people who only play FPSes, or Fighting games, or Adventure games. If appreciating quality food and trying lots of different types of food is what makes you a foodie, then someone who only eats filet mignon and lobster is no more a foodie than someone who only eats Big Macs. So under that view, someone who spends 8 hours a day perfecting speedruns of Donkey Kong Country wouldn't be consider a "true gamer" and that's ridiculous.
It's tricky to pick and choose what does and does not count as a "true game" and a "true gamer." If Pac-Man or Tetris or Asteroids came out today, chances are, they'd be on mobile devices or tablets alongside Angry Birds, Plants vs Zombies, and Candy Crush Saga. Would that… [view original content]
Adventure games sell extremely well on mobile. Telltale has stated that their adventures have sold incredibly well on iOS devices (they even went so far as to at one point make a game specifically for iOS and then port it to PC later (Law & Order: Legacies), which is really strange for Telltale as PC has always been their main platform). Wadjet Eye Games has stated that their games are great sellers on iOS as well.
Besides, Domewing333 has a point too. Arcade gamers were the first gamers, and those games are now like the mobile games of today. Even though those games were definitely grab and go type of games, as they were designed to be played quickly, there were people who would definitely be considered gamers who took the games beyond the grab and go type and really got invested in them. You couldn't deny that the players of those games were gamers, as they invested tons of hours in the game and certainly invested in the game world (many gamers spent hours upon hours on games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, memorizing the patterns, and trying to get to the kill screen).
Gamers that spend hours upon hours playing a game like Pet Rescue Saga, for example, investing in the game world by figuring out how the colors of blocks can stack up so they can rescue more pets to get to higher and higher levels are certainly just as much as a gamer as those who memorized the patterns of the stages of Donkey Kong and Pac-Man back in the arcade heyday. I definitely wouldn't call those type of people the grab and go type, just as I wouldn't call the people who mastered Pac-Man and Donkey Kong the grab and go type. They deserve to be called gamers just as much as everyone else.
that just isn't true, the most popular games on mobile devices are just the simple grab and go type, simple puzzles games or facebook type g… moreame, adventure games may have some popularity, but nowhere near "one of the most popular genres of games on mobile" and it may be true that there are some genuinely good games on mobile devices, they are the exception.
using exceptions is totally disingenuous, eg. you could say that humans have two eyes, and that would be true, you could also say but some humans have zero eyes or one eye, and that would be true, but saying humans have zero eyes would be false
so humans with two eyes= mobile games are simple grab and go games, some humans have 0 or 1 eye= some mobile games are genuinely good, and humans have zero eyes= mobile games are genuinely good
so sure some mobile games are good but it is so rare and most often than not even the good ones don't sell very well so they are statistically insign… [view original content]
i am denying that adventure games sell extremely well on mobile, because it isn't true (in the grand scale).
telltale maybe have sold games well (for them) on mobile, but telltale is a small company, out of the millions of games sold and the billions of $/£ made on mobile devices adventure games is an infinitesimally small amount of that total.
as for arcade games they aren't as popular as they were and the people that play them not don't invest the time you are describing, so again a very small part of mobile games.
and as i said in my response to domewing333
the fact is that more men play games than women, and any kind of exceptions or specifics, or semantic arguments or a debate about debates is just a distraction, this is how most debates always end and up and it is just counter productive.
the simple question was
How come there isn't a lot of female main playable characters in video games?
and the simple answer is:
more men play games than women.
you could spend forever getting into the intricacies and the semantic arguments, but that is the simple answer
and all of this other debate about totally non related subjects is just getting away from the original question.
"what is a gamer?"
could be a never ending subject of it's own.
edit:
i like how you edit your posts after i respond to them, the first line was
Adventure games sell extremely well on mobile, there's no denying it
which is why i said
i am denying that adventure games sell extremely well on mobile
Adventure games sell extremely well on mobile. Telltale has stated that their adventures have sold incredibly well on iOS devices (they eve… moren went so far as to at one point make a game specifically for iOS and then port it to PC later (Law & Order: Legacies), which is really strange for Telltale as PC has always been their main platform). Wadjet Eye Games has stated that their games are great sellers on iOS as well.
Besides, Domewing333 has a point too. Arcade gamers were the first gamers, and those games are now like the mobile games of today. Even though those games were definitely grab and go type of games, as they were designed to be played quickly, there were people who would definitely be considered gamers who took the games beyond the grab and go type and really got invested in them. You couldn't deny that the players of those games were gamers, as they invested tons of hours in the game and certainly invested in the game wor… [view original content]
@thestalkingdead wrote:
as for arcade games they aren't as popular as they were and the people that play them not don't invest the time you are describing, so again a very small part of mobile games.
In my experience, they certainly do. All of my Facebook friends do exactly that. That's exactly the reason I specifically mentioned Pet Rescue Saga, as I have twelve female Facebook friends who play it exactly like I was describing. People tend to play more when they can be competitive with their friends, and the social aspect of Facebook and mobile games allow them to do that.
So, if you factor in the amount of women who invest in Facebook and mobile games for hours and hours, working to get higher and higher levels and scores (which, in my experience is almost all of them, due to the social aspect of these, which has an inherent competitive nature, which makes gamers play more as it makes them want to master the game so they can beat their friends) and the amount of women who play story based games on mobile (which I'll concede, while very profitable for the companies who make them, aren't the majority of the top sellers on the app store), I'd say that the amount of female gamers in the statistics is accurate.
i am denying that adventure games sell extremely well on mobile, because it isn't true (in the grand scale).
telltale maybe have sold gam… morees well (for them) on mobile, but telltale is a small company, out of the millions of games sold and the billions of $/£ made on mobile devices adventure games is an infinitesimally small amount of that total.
as for arcade games they aren't as popular as they were and the people that play them not don't invest the time you are describing, so again a very small part of mobile games.
and as i said in my response to domewing333
the fact is that more men play games than women, and any kind of exceptions or specifics, or semantic arguments or a debate about debates is just a distraction, this is how most debates always end and up and it is just counter productive.
the simple question was
How come there isn't a lot of female main playable characters in video games?
and the simp… [view original content]
i had no idea what "Pet Rescue Saga" was, i just looked and it is a match 4 game, so basically candy crush, those games are very poor, i didn't even count them as arcade games, although obviously those types of games are in arcades, but seriously you are saying match 4 games are good enough and in depth enough to be counted alongside proper games, i mean really, you are basically arguing my side at this point
@thestalkingdead wrote:
as for arcade games they aren't as popular as they were and the people that play them not don't invest the time y… moreou are describing, so again a very small part of mobile games.
In my experience, they certainly do. All of my Facebook friends do exactly that. That's exactly the reason I specifically mentioned Pet Rescue Saga, as I have twelve female Facebook friends who play it exactly like I was describing. People tend to play more when they can be competitive with their friends, and the social aspect of Facebook and mobile games allow them to do that.
So, if you factor in the amount of women who invest in Facebook and mobile games for hours and hours, working to get higher and higher levels and scores (which, in my experience is almost all of them, due to the social aspect of these, which has an inherent competitive nature, which makes gamers play more as it makes them want to master the game so they ca… [view original content]
You said "you could also argue that only gamers would play adventure games as well, because non gamers would just watch a film or TV show." And I'm saying that many of the women you would dismiss as non-gamers don't just watch a film or TV show. They play RPGs and other story-driven games because they, like their male counterparts, have a desire to actively participate in their fiction. I was pointing out that the notion that only the people you acknowledge as "true gamers" play adventure games is untrue.
but i would agree that someone who only plays one game or one genre isn't a gamer.
So what you're saying is that a person can spend every ounce of free time that he or she has playing the video games that he or she loves, unlock all the secrets, clear all the stages, know every line spoken by every character...but if all those games happen to belong to one category, they don't get to be called a gamer? That's not ridiculous to you?
but the fact is that more men play games than women, and any kind of exceptions or specifics, or semantic arguments or a debate about debates is just a distraction
You're the one appealing to exceptions, specifics, and semantics here by narrowing the definition of "gamer" into a very specific one that actually excludes many whom most others would recognized as "hardcore gamers" just because their taste in games isn't as diverse as you want them to be.
The first point is demonstrably untrue as RPGs are among the games that attract women the most. Wanting to actively participate in your fict… moreion is hardly a male-only attribute.
i have no idea what part of what i said that was a response to, i didn't think i was ever saying that RPGs aren't attractive to women or that wanting to actively participate in fiction is a male-only attribute, i would say that RPGs are attractive to women as with participating in fiction, i really have no idea how you got the impression i said otherwise
but i would agree that someone who only plays one game or one genre isn't a gamer.
and yes the idea of a true gamer is a bit silly, but the fact is that more men play games than women, and any kind of exceptions or specifics, or semantic arguments or a debate about debates is just a distraction, this is how most debates always end and up and it is just counter productive.
the simple question was
… [view original content]
I think the point to be made here is that there is really no point in having a main character in games like this. When the ratio of women:men playing non-arcadey games is more even then I'm guessing we will see a similar level of female protaganists. I mean did anyone really care if it was pac-man or Ms Pac-man? Just eat the pellets.
i had no idea what "Pet Rescue Saga" was, i just looked and it is a match 4 game, so basically candy crush, those games are very poor, i did… moren't even count them as arcade games, although obviously those types of games are in arcades, but seriously you are saying match 4 games are good enough and in depth enough to be counted alongside proper games, i mean really, you are basically arguing my side at this point
oh, you totally misunderstood, non gamers didn't equal women, non gamers meant people who don't play games much or at all, i wasn't dismissing women in general as non gamers.
i am not just being sexist and just saying gamers equal men and non gamers equal women, that is totally not what i am saying.
what i meant by saying you could argue that only gamers would play adventure games, is that 1) adventure games are a reasonably niche genre, so not even all gamers have played an adventure game, and 2) telltale games at the moment are very story driven, so somebody that wasn't really into games may just get their story fix from a more mainstream area eg. film or TV.
So what you're saying is that a person can spend every ounce of free time that he or she has playing the video games that he or she loves, unlock all the secrets, clear all the stages, know every line spoken by every character...but if all those games happen to belong to one category, they don't get to be called a gamer? That's not ridiculous to you?
maybe in the extreme levels you just listed, but your example i was responding to was about my foodie analogy and you said about how someone who only eats filet mignon and lobster is comparable to someone who eats a lot of fast food in that they both aren't foodies, so just like someone who plays a lot of candy crush isn't a gamer
there are a lot of people who don't consider themselves gamers who only play one game or one genre of games.
i guess i missed your speedrunner example but the foodie/gamer thing is what i was responding to, i would say speed runners were gamers.
You're the one appealing to exceptions, specifics, and semantics here by narrowing the definition of "gamer" into a very specific one that actually excludes many whom most others would recognized as "hardcore gamers" just because their taste in games isn't as diverse as you want them to be.
i think most people would agree that the definition of a gamer is well established and that a gamer isn't simply someone who plays a game, as with foodie it means more than just eating food.
You said "you could also argue that only gamers would play adventure games as well, because non gamers would just watch a film or TV show." … moreAnd I'm saying that many of the women you would dismiss as non-gamers don't just watch a film or TV show. They play RPGs and other story-driven games because they, like their male counterparts, have a desire to actively participate in their fiction. I was pointing out that the notion that only the people you acknowledge as "true gamers" play adventure games is untrue.
but i would agree that someone who only plays one game or one genre isn't a gamer.
So what you're saying is that a person can spend every ounce of free time that he or she has playing the video games that he or she loves, unlock all the secrets, clear all the stages, know every line spoken by every character...but if all those games happen to belong to one category, they don't get to be called a gamer? That's not ridiculous to … [view original content]
@thestalkinghead wrote:
i had no idea what "Pet Rescue Saga" was, i just looked and it is a match 4 game, so basically candy crush, those games are very poor, i didn't even count them as arcade games, although obviously those types of games are in arcades, but seriously you are saying match 4 games are good enough and in depth enough to be counted alongside proper games, i mean really, you are basically arguing my side at this point
It's a tile matching game, yes. Which has been in gaming history since 1985, with Same Game, so I'd say that style of game certainly deserves to be counted in history with every other arcade style game. But, you're just being pedantic now. You're basically just saying the statistics saying that women now play games equally as much as men can't be true because a lot of women play games you don't like, and that's just silly.
@PuhChewyChomp wrote:
I think the point to be made here is that there is really no point in having a main character in games like this. When the ratio of women:men playing non-arcadey games is more even then I'm guessing we will see a similar level of female protaganists. I mean did anyone really care if it was pac-man or Ms Pac-man? Just eat the pellets.
Women actually play story based games quite frequently. The majority of casual adventure games are played by women, for example. But, when women are made protagonists in other genres of games, women do pick up games that they normally won't play (women did care about Ms. Pac-Man actually, more women played that game than Pac-Man because of the female protagonist, additionally Lara Croft brought in a lot of female gamers who wouldn't normally play action-adventures).
Not every game should have a female protagonist of course, that'd be ridiculous. But publishers still thinking along the lines of games with female characters don't sell are behind the times when more women than ever are playing games and most men don't care if their game has a female protagonist, just that the game is good (just as most women don't mind playing a game with a male protagonist, for the same reason).
In the end, a game with a single protagonist should be completely up to the developer on what gender and race they want the character to have, and, unless the situation calls for a specific gender (such as something like life in an all-female prison, etc) a game with an option to create your own character should have both genders available (and options to customize your character for any ethnicity). The latter just is smart business sense, as you can cater to the widest possible demographic, and the former just is letting the developer be free to make their game the way they want without any outside interference.
i had no idea what "Pet Rescue Saga" was, i just looked and it is a match 4 game, so basically candy crush, those games are very poor, i did… moren't even count them as arcade games, although obviously those types of games are in arcades, but seriously you are saying match 4 games are good enough and in depth enough to be counted alongside proper games, i mean really, you are basically arguing my side at this point
it has nothing to do with games i like or not, games like match 4 games are ridiculously basic and those types of games dominate mobile gaming.
i can't believe you would seriously argue that playing a game like that is what it means to be a gamer, i think if you are being honest you would admit that that is an extremely bad example of a game, i mean i agree with you that playing adventure games would count as a good example of mobile gaming, but come on, match 4
@thestalkinghead wrote:
i had no idea what "Pet Rescue Saga" was, i just looked and it is a match 4 game, so basically candy crush, those… more games are very poor, i didn't even count them as arcade games, although obviously those types of games are in arcades, but seriously you are saying match 4 games are good enough and in depth enough to be counted alongside proper games, i mean really, you are basically arguing my side at this point
It's a tile matching game, yes. Which has been in gaming history since 1985, with Same Game, so I'd say that style of game certainly deserves to be counted in history with every other arcade style game. But, you're just being pedantic now. You're basically just saying the statistics saying that women now play games equally as much as men can't be true because a lot of women play games you don't like, and that's just silly.
@PuhChewyChomp wrote:
I think the point to be made here is that there… [view original content]
Pet Rescue Saga is basically Same Game (Sega Swirl) with the added complexity of having obstacles in the way and having to rescue a set number of pets. Since there is an added level of skill needed because of that, and because it gets progressively harder as the levels go on, I'd say that definitely counts as a good example of game design. If you strip Pac-Man down to its fundamentals, it's quite basic as well - just go through a maze eating dots and avoiding ghosts. It's the execution of the concept that matters, and both games do the execution well in my opinion (as do most of these types of games - there's a reason they're so popular after all).
it has nothing to do with games i like or not, games like match 4 games are ridiculously basic and those types of games dominate mobile gami… moreng.
i can't believe you would seriously argue that playing a game like that is what it means to be a gamer, i think if you are being honest you would admit that that is an extremely bad example of a game, i mean i agree with you that playing adventure games would count as a good example of mobile gaming, but come on, match 4
telltale games at the moment are very story driven, so somebody that wasn't really into games may just get their story fix from a more mainstream area eg. film or TV.
And yet many of them don't. That's my point. There are lots of people who, while they don't play most other games, absolutely adore playing story-driven adventure games likes those of Telltale. And that's because what they want isn't simply a good story, but also the ability to actively participate in said story, something that only games can provide. And from what you said, it seems as though you wouldn't consider those people gamers. That's what I have issue with.
i would say speed runners were gamers.
Why? Under your conceptualization of gamers as the electronic entertainment equivalent of foodies, why is a speed runner who only plays one game over and over again considered a gamer?
i think most people would agree that the definition of a gamer is well established and that a gamer isn't simply someone who plays a game, as with foodie it means more than just eating food.
I agree that having merely played a video game does not make you a gamer, but I disagree that the definition is as strict as your foodie analogy. I don't think you need to like a certain quality of games or a certain number of game genres to be considered a gamer. I just think you need to enjoy playing games as a hobby. If someone got all the stars in Angry Birds, beat every level of Plants vs Zombies, and got to level 182 in Candy Crush, that's a gamer. If someone eagerly awaits the release of every Telltale title and downloads the episode as soon as they come out, that's a gamer. If someone spends 4 hours a day screwing around in The Sims, that's a gamer.
oh, you totally misunderstood, non gamers didn't equal women, non gamers meant people who don't play games much or at all, i wasn't dismissi… moreng women in general as non gamers.
i am not just being sexist and just saying gamers equal men and non gamers equal women, that is totally not what i am saying.
what i meant by saying you could argue that only gamers would play adventure games, is that 1) adventure games are a reasonably niche genre, so not even all gamers have played an adventure game, and 2) telltale games at the moment are very story driven, so somebody that wasn't really into games may just get their story fix from a more mainstream area eg. film or TV.
So what you're saying is that a person can spend every ounce of free time that he or she has playing the video games that he or she loves, unlock all the secrets, clear all the stages, know every line spoken by every character...but if all those games happen to belong to on… [view original content]
you mean somebody that wasn't really into games? right? because if so yeah i agree that a telltale game could be someone's "gateway game" but so could any game, and i was just arguing the point that someone who plays telltale games aren't gamers which you obviously disagree with.
so it was a counter argument to an argument you said and that you disagree with and now you are disagreeing with the counter argument to the argument you don't agree with, i didn't say if you play a telltale game you are automatically a harcore gamer, i argued against the idea the playing a telltale game means you aren't a gamer.
i have never heard of a speed runner who has only played one game, speed runners are hardcore experienced gamers who have decided to dedicate time to one game and perfect it, not someone who only played one game over and over
i think and most people agree that the foodie/gamer analogy is correct, it's just like any kind of enthusiast definition, you arent a book worm if you just read one book or a few 10 page books no matter how much you enjoy them, same with a film buff you need to watch more than one film or a few childrens films to be considered one, and that isn't strict at all that is just common to all enthusiast definitions (even if that enthusiasm doesn't have an established name), gamer means games enthusiast.
i have completed plants Vs zombies multiple times and gotten most of the plants in the nursery, it is one of the better casual games and i own almost all of the telltale games and i have put hundreds of hours into all versions of the sims, but if that was all i wouldn't consider myself a gamer or a games enthusiast, just more of a fan or casual player, i wouldn't even consider all the years i spent playing NES and Sega megadrive me being a gamer, it was when i started to play all kinds of genres of games and all kinds of play styles, and when i would look out for niche games or games that were interesting because they were different is when i became a gamer.
i like beer, i drink beer, there are some beers i really like, i have even brewed my own beer, but i am not a beer enthusiast, but that doesn't mean my opinions about beer are invalid or that there shouldn't be beer made that suits my tastes, or even that beer enthusiasts should look down on me, in fact encouragement to learn more and try more would be the best thing they could do, because i may end up being a beer enthusiast and encourage more people and eventually make the whole beer enthusiast community more accessible and mainstream (i totally wrung that analogy dry, but i hope i got my point across)
anyway gamer and gender have nothing to do with each other, however it just so happens for multiple known/unknown reasons there are more male gamers then female gamers
telltale games at the moment are very story driven, so somebody that wasn't really into games may just get their story fix from a more mains… moretream area eg. film or TV.
And yet many of them don't. That's my point. There are lots of people who, while they don't play most other games, absolutely adore playing story-driven adventure games likes those of Telltale. And that's because what they want isn't simply a good story, but also the ability to actively participate in said story, something that only games can provide. And from what you said, it seems as though you wouldn't consider those people gamers. That's what I have issue with.
i would say speed runners were gamers.
Why? Under your conceptualization of gamers as the electronic entertainment equivalent of foodies, why is a speed runner who only plays one game over and over again considered a gamer?
i think most people would agree that the definition of a gamer is … [view original content]
Ah, okay. Your beer enthusiast analogy and your statement about your NES/Sega days certainly does help to clarify where you're coming from.
I guess my point of contention here is that I think you set the bar for "gamer" too high. To the point where a very large portion of people who purchase and play video games don't meet the standards. Thus, it's not a great justification for such a wide trend in the video game market as the lack of female characters.
Restaurants and beer companies don't just cater to the foodies and the beer enthusiasts. In fact, they cater the most to the casual fans and larger public. Because those are the people they need to work the hardest to get to try their product. And the same concept holds when it comes to video games.
As a self-proclaimed gamer, you pride yourself on looking out for niche games that seem interesting to you. You enjoy the new and different. As such, you would be less likely than a non-gamer to pass by a game purely because the protagonist is not of your gender. And if more and more games come out that feature female protagonists, it's not like you're going to stop being a gamer. So why are video game companies still designing games to fit your slight preferences?
That's the curious part. Some video game developers seem to be under the impression that the vast majority of the market for video games are people like you, when that may not be the case at all. It's more of an issue of perception than one of demographics.
And yet many of them don't.
you mean somebody that wasn't really into games? right? because if so yeah i agree that a telltale game … morecould be someone's "gateway game" but so could any game, and i was just arguing the point that someone who plays telltale games aren't gamers which you obviously disagree with.
so it was a counter argument to an argument you said and that you disagree with and now you are disagreeing with the counter argument to the argument you don't agree with, i didn't say if you play a telltale game you are automatically a harcore gamer, i argued against the idea the playing a telltale game means you aren't a gamer.
i have never heard of a speed runner who has only played one game, speed runners are hardcore experienced gamers who have decided to dedicate time to one game and perfect it, not someone who only played one game over and over
i think and most people agree that the foodie/gamer analogy is correct, … [view original content]
well i think gaming in general, is young (in the scale of things) it's is basically in the teenage years, i think it is attempting at the moment to be more like a mature adult ( a wide variety of games aimed at all kinds of people) but it doesn't quite get it right all the time.
maybe an example would be bioware, they do it quite well, but perhaps making everybody bisexual was not quite there, and making a character "full gay" was almost there, but ugh, could have presented it a bit better.
even though i am open to al kinds of games i do prefer a male player character, or at the very least a prominent male character i can identify with (especially a story heavy game) and i don't think that is backwards thinking, i think it is natural to want to identify with a character and first impressions count, so women wanting more female characters is totally fine or wanting stories in general that women can identify with better is fine, games that are aimed at everybody can work, but a lot of the time a specific audience can work much better.
i may not be as drawn to a game that isn't really aimed at me, but i won't protest at it's existence and maybe i will like it anyway, but maybe i just won't buy it eg. i didn't get life is strange, even though it has many things which appealed to me telltale like game structure, a cool time reverse mechanic and it looks nice, however when i watched the trailer there wasn't one male character who wasn't an asshole and that made me think it just wasn't for me, i watch orange is the new black and i sort of identify with the main character but really she seems more like my sister than me, and one of my complaints about the show (even thought i like it) is that there aren't any good male characters, the nicest guy in the show is the main characters brother and he isn't in it much and he is sort of a hobo, and a last example is the TV show once upon a time, where the main character is female but i generally (throughout the seasons) have identified with a male character "rumplestiltskin" .
so two out of three things generally aimed at women ain't bad, and i guess if game developers do it correctly they will probably get similar results for things aimed at either gender, i think it is happening but it will just take a bit more time for big developers especially to try new ideas, indie games are well ahead, but i don't think women want to be confined to only having indie games aimed at them forever.
Ah, okay. Your beer enthusiast analogy and your statement about your NES/Sega days certainly does help to clarify where you're coming from.
… more
I guess my point of contention here is that I think you set the bar for "gamer" too high. To the point where a very large portion of people who purchase and play video games don't meet the standards. Thus, it's not a great justification for such a wide trend in the video game market as the lack of female characters.
Restaurants and beer companies don't just cater to the foodies and the beer enthusiasts. In fact, they cater the most to the casual fans and larger public. Because those are the people they need to work the hardest to get to try their product. And the same concept holds when it comes to video games.
As a self-proclaimed gamer, you pride yourself on looking out for niche games that seem interesting to you. You enjoy the new and different. As such, you would be less likely than a non-g… [view original content]
"Companies demanding you change the protagonist to male"? Lol what? Where in my comment did I even imply that? The only absurdity here is your stubbornness to accept things the way they are. This is like telling a child who's begging for seconds that they already have a full plate of food. The gender of a character shouldn't matter that much to you anyway. And yes, this is coming from a woman.
Be content with what you already have or simply get over it and move on.
You can't be content with companies demanding you change the protagonist to a male. That's the most absurd thing I've heard.
i think there are more female characters than there are females playing games like this, if we're talking ratios here... The game I have personally seen he most females playing was probably left 4 dead/l4d2, where 1/4 of the characters were women. While I would say less than 1/10th of the players were female. I haven't taken a poll or anything but I would bet the numbers of male:female who played Alien:Isolation are similar. Developers aren't going to go out of their way to pander to women complaining about the lack of female characters in video games when most of them are playing Candy crush and farmville exclusively.
@thestalkinghead wrote:
i had no idea what "Pet Rescue Saga" was, i just looked and it is a match 4 game, so basically candy crush, those… more games are very poor, i didn't even count them as arcade games, although obviously those types of games are in arcades, but seriously you are saying match 4 games are good enough and in depth enough to be counted alongside proper games, i mean really, you are basically arguing my side at this point
It's a tile matching game, yes. Which has been in gaming history since 1985, with Same Game, so I'd say that style of game certainly deserves to be counted in history with every other arcade style game. But, you're just being pedantic now. You're basically just saying the statistics saying that women now play games equally as much as men can't be true because a lot of women play games you don't like, and that's just silly.
@PuhChewyChomp wrote:
I think the point to be made here is that there… [view original content]
It's true that a lot of women play puzzle and simulation games exclusively, but women have always flocked to story based games. Even in the 1990's, 40% of gamers who played Sierra adventure games (one of the two largest developers of adventure games, when that genre was still one of the top selling genres of computer games) were women.
There are more women gamers now than there were then, and they're still flocking to adventure games. Women are now the majority of the casual adventure game market. Telltale's former design director Dave Grossman explains the reason why well in that article, as he states that the emphasis on drama and story has always made the genre appealing to women, as women generally tend to not prefer games that give an adrenaline rush, and find the emphasis on story and drama compelling.
No one is suggesting that the market pander to women, but there's no denying that the publishers who still insist that developers change the gender of their main character to male because they think games with female protagonists don't sell are living in the past. More women than ever are playing story based games, and men usually don't care if a game has a female protagonist, just as long as the game is good. If a developer wants to make a game with a female protagonist, that should be completely up to them, without the publisher interfering based on outdated statistics.
i think there are more female characters than there are females playing games like this, if we're talking ratios here... The game I have pe… morersonally seen he most females playing was probably left 4 dead/l4d2, where 1/4 of the characters were women. While I would say less than 1/10th of the players were female. I haven't taken a poll or anything but I would bet the numbers of male:female who played Alien:Isolation are similar. Developers aren't going to go out of their way to pander to women complaining about the lack of female characters in video games when most of them are playing Candy crush and farmville exclusively.
Comments
Japanese artwork and anime have a tendency to idealize everything, not just women. Leon from Resident Evil is made to be every bit the perfect male specimen as Jill Valentine is made to be every bit the perfect female specimen. Asking why characters in anime have perfect proportions instead of looking like normal people is the same as asking why characters in Western comic books have perfect proportions instead of looking like normal people.
That's not to say that Japan doesn't have sexist tendencies, because every country does. They do often oversexualize their female characters and maintain somewhat traditional views of gender roles. But to say "Well obviously, it's Japan's fault" is dismissive of the many, many shining examples of strong female characters they've produce in their media.
Not all RPGs though. There are some RPGs that have the protagonist as a set gender.
The gender of the character shouldn't matter, what should matter is whether or not the character is actually believable and well written.
You can't be content with companies demanding you change the protagonist to a male. That's the most absurd thing I've heard.
IMO, Game developers want to stay safe by having a male protagonist. It's been this way for a while, and because of this unfortunate tradition, there's hardly any knowledge on how to create a lifelike, relatable, and fleshed out female character. (I'm not referring to Telltale of course).
most gamers are male, simple as that.
people who play mobile games aren't gamers (just like people who eat fast food aren't foodies) so stats saying otherwise are really just presenting false information.
anyway, as a man it's not like i and other men don't want playable female characters, however male characters are just more appealing as a concept to play (or watch) to men because it is easier to identify with or put our own thoughts/feeling onto, in the same way that female characters are more appealing to women
Some would argue that people who play Telltale games aren't gamers either.
maybe, but you could also argue that only gamers would play adventure games as well, because non gamers would just watch a film or TV show, so that argument is disingenuous, but if people are being honest they know that mobile games just aren't the same as "real" games.
in my analogy about fast food, all food is food, but eating food doesn't make you a foodie, appreciating quality food and trying lots of different types of food makes you a foodie, also eating fast food doesn't make you a foodie, fast food=mobile games, therefore playing mobile games doesn't make you a gamer.
i am not saying girls can't be gamers, i am saying that there have been a few studies used to show that the split of male/female gamers is more even than people think, but they have counted playing mobile games in those statistics, but if they were taken out the result would be more accurate and show a big split between male and female gamer numbers, no matter how much people may want it to be more even, fudging the results of studies doesn't make it so.
If you invest dozens of hours into games, and especially if you invest in the game's characters, stories, and worlds, I'd say you can rightfully call yourself a gamer (and many people who play mobile games would count in my opinion, as story based games are quite popular on mobile platforms, and with women gamers in particular).
Interestingly, Telltale's games are an evolution of the adventure genre, which has always (even in the 80's and 90's) had a large amount of women gamers. Statistically, women in general have always been interested in story based games, and until the late 90's adventure games and RPGs were the genre that had most story based games, so it makes sense that women would flock to those genres.
That's probably why adventure games have had many female protagonists over the years, even at times when other genres were lacking (as early as the 1980's there were female protagonists in adventure games such as Infocom's Plundered Hearts and Sierra's King's Quest IV). Heck, some of the earliest female video game developers were adventure game designers (Roberta Williams, Lori Ann Cole, Jen Sward, Jane Jensen).
that may be true, but adventure games have always been a niche genre, and it doesn't change the fact that most gamers are male and that that is the reason most games have a male player character
edit:
the first paragraph was edited after i said that may be true, dozens of hours in candy crush dean't make you a gamer.
but more response is in my above response to the other comment
You're assuming that all people who play mobile games are the grab and go type, but that isn't true. Adventure games are one of the most popular genres of games on mobile, and they're story based so you have to invest time in the game. Female gamers make up the majority of adventure gamers on mobile devices, so since they are investing a great deal of time in games, it's definitely not disingenuous to include them in statistics.
The first point is demonstrably untrue as RPGs are among the games that attract women the most. Wanting to actively participate in your fiction is hardly a male-only attribute.
Your argument about being a foodie can also apply to, for instance, people who only play FPSes, or Fighting games, or Adventure games. If appreciating quality food and trying lots of different types of food is what makes you a foodie, then someone who only eats filet mignon and lobster is no more a foodie than someone who only eats Big Macs. So under that view, someone who spends 8 hours a day perfecting speedruns of Donkey Kong Country wouldn't be consider a "true gamer" and that's ridiculous.
It's tricky to pick and choose what does and does not count as a "true game" and a "true gamer." If Pac-Man or Tetris or Asteroids came out today, chances are, they'd be on mobile devices or tablets alongside Angry Birds, Plants vs Zombies, and Candy Crush Saga. Would that undermine their status as games and the status of those people who play them as gamers? Of course not.
There are plenty of female playable characters. Just not alot in America. Foreign countries like Japan have plenty of female playable characters
that just isn't true, the most popular games on mobile devices are just the simple grab and go type, simple puzzles games or facebook type game, adventure games may have some popularity, but nowhere near "one of the most popular genres of games on mobile" and it may be true that there are some genuinely good games on mobile devices, they are the exception.
using exceptions is totally disingenuous, eg. you could say that humans have two eyes, and that would be true, you could also say but some humans have zero eyes or one eye, and that would be true, but saying humans have zero eyes would be false
so humans with two eyes= mobile games are simple grab and go games, some humans have 0 or 1 eye= some mobile games are genuinely good, and humans have zero eyes= mobile games are genuinely good
so sure some mobile games are good but it is so rare and most often than not even the good ones don't sell very well so they are statistically insignificant.
and sure " anyone who invests a great deal of time to games, and invests in the game's stories, characters, and worlds, should rightly be able to call themselves gamers." is very true, but the vast majority of mobile games played don't present the opportunity to do that.
and just like my food analogy some fast food is genuinely brilliant, however most is McDonald's but to use the exception is disingenuous and misleading, also eating a lot of it doesn't make someone a foodie
so no i am not "assuming that all people who play mobile games are the grab and go type" that is just a fact, and pretending it isn't is false.
i have no idea what part of what i said that was a response to, i didn't think i was ever saying that RPGs aren't attractive to women or that wanting to actively participate in fiction is a male-only attribute, i would say that RPGs are attractive to women as with participating in fiction, i really have no idea how you got the impression i said otherwise
but i would agree that someone who only plays one game or one genre isn't a gamer.
and yes the idea of a true gamer is a bit silly, but the fact is that more men play games than women, and any kind of exceptions or specifics, or semantic arguments or a debate about debates is just a distraction, this is how most debates always end and up and it is just counter productive.
the simple question was
and the simple answer is:
more men play games than women.
you could spend forever getting into the intricacies and the semantic arguments, but that is the simple answer
Adventure games sell extremely well on mobile. Telltale has stated that their adventures have sold incredibly well on iOS devices (they even went so far as to at one point make a game specifically for iOS and then port it to PC later (Law & Order: Legacies), which is really strange for Telltale as PC has always been their main platform). Wadjet Eye Games has stated that their games are great sellers on iOS as well.
Besides, Domewing333 has a point too. Arcade gamers were the first gamers, and those games are now like the mobile games of today. Even though those games were definitely grab and go type of games, as they were designed to be played quickly, there were people who would definitely be considered gamers who took the games beyond the grab and go type and really got invested in them. You couldn't deny that the players of those games were gamers, as they invested tons of hours in the game and certainly invested in the game world (many gamers spent hours upon hours on games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, memorizing the patterns, and trying to get to the kill screen).
Gamers that spend hours upon hours playing a game like Pet Rescue Saga, for example, investing in the game world by figuring out how the colors of blocks can stack up so they can rescue more pets to get to higher and higher levels are certainly just as much as a gamer as those who memorized the patterns of the stages of Donkey Kong and Pac-Man back in the arcade heyday. I definitely wouldn't call those type of people the grab and go type, just as I wouldn't call the people who mastered Pac-Man and Donkey Kong the grab and go type. They deserve to be called gamers just as much as everyone else.
i am denying that adventure games sell extremely well on mobile, because it isn't true (in the grand scale).
telltale maybe have sold games well (for them) on mobile, but telltale is a small company, out of the millions of games sold and the billions of $/£ made on mobile devices adventure games is an infinitesimally small amount of that total.
as for arcade games they aren't as popular as they were and the people that play them not don't invest the time you are describing, so again a very small part of mobile games.
and as i said in my response to domewing333
and all of this other debate about totally non related subjects is just getting away from the original question.
"what is a gamer?"
could be a never ending subject of it's own.
edit:
i like how you edit your posts after i respond to them, the first line was
which is why i said
In my experience, they certainly do. All of my Facebook friends do exactly that. That's exactly the reason I specifically mentioned Pet Rescue Saga, as I have twelve female Facebook friends who play it exactly like I was describing. People tend to play more when they can be competitive with their friends, and the social aspect of Facebook and mobile games allow them to do that.
So, if you factor in the amount of women who invest in Facebook and mobile games for hours and hours, working to get higher and higher levels and scores (which, in my experience is almost all of them, due to the social aspect of these, which has an inherent competitive nature, which makes gamers play more as it makes them want to master the game so they can beat their friends) and the amount of women who play story based games on mobile (which I'll concede, while very profitable for the companies who make them, aren't the majority of the top sellers on the app store), I'd say that the amount of female gamers in the statistics is accurate.
i had no idea what "Pet Rescue Saga" was, i just looked and it is a match 4 game, so basically candy crush, those games are very poor, i didn't even count them as arcade games, although obviously those types of games are in arcades, but seriously you are saying match 4 games are good enough and in depth enough to be counted alongside proper games, i mean really, you are basically arguing my side at this point
You said "you could also argue that only gamers would play adventure games as well, because non gamers would just watch a film or TV show." And I'm saying that many of the women you would dismiss as non-gamers don't just watch a film or TV show. They play RPGs and other story-driven games because they, like their male counterparts, have a desire to actively participate in their fiction. I was pointing out that the notion that only the people you acknowledge as "true gamers" play adventure games is untrue.
So what you're saying is that a person can spend every ounce of free time that he or she has playing the video games that he or she loves, unlock all the secrets, clear all the stages, know every line spoken by every character...but if all those games happen to belong to one category, they don't get to be called a gamer? That's not ridiculous to you?
You're the one appealing to exceptions, specifics, and semantics here by narrowing the definition of "gamer" into a very specific one that actually excludes many whom most others would recognized as "hardcore gamers" just because their taste in games isn't as diverse as you want them to be.
I think the point to be made here is that there is really no point in having a main character in games like this. When the ratio of women:men playing non-arcadey games is more even then I'm guessing we will see a similar level of female protaganists. I mean did anyone really care if it was pac-man or Ms Pac-man? Just eat the pellets.
oh, you totally misunderstood, non gamers didn't equal women, non gamers meant people who don't play games much or at all, i wasn't dismissing women in general as non gamers.
i am not just being sexist and just saying gamers equal men and non gamers equal women, that is totally not what i am saying.
what i meant by saying you could argue that only gamers would play adventure games, is that 1) adventure games are a reasonably niche genre, so not even all gamers have played an adventure game, and 2) telltale games at the moment are very story driven, so somebody that wasn't really into games may just get their story fix from a more mainstream area eg. film or TV.
maybe in the extreme levels you just listed, but your example i was responding to was about my foodie analogy and you said about how someone who only eats filet mignon and lobster is comparable to someone who eats a lot of fast food in that they both aren't foodies, so just like someone who plays a lot of candy crush isn't a gamer
there are a lot of people who don't consider themselves gamers who only play one game or one genre of games.
i guess i missed your speedrunner example but the foodie/gamer thing is what i was responding to, i would say speed runners were gamers.
i think most people would agree that the definition of a gamer is well established and that a gamer isn't simply someone who plays a game, as with foodie it means more than just eating food.
It's a tile matching game, yes. Which has been in gaming history since 1985, with Same Game, so I'd say that style of game certainly deserves to be counted in history with every other arcade style game. But, you're just being pedantic now. You're basically just saying the statistics saying that women now play games equally as much as men can't be true because a lot of women play games you don't like, and that's just silly.
Women actually play story based games quite frequently. The majority of casual adventure games are played by women, for example. But, when women are made protagonists in other genres of games, women do pick up games that they normally won't play (women did care about Ms. Pac-Man actually, more women played that game than Pac-Man because of the female protagonist, additionally Lara Croft brought in a lot of female gamers who wouldn't normally play action-adventures).
Not every game should have a female protagonist of course, that'd be ridiculous. But publishers still thinking along the lines of games with female characters don't sell are behind the times when more women than ever are playing games and most men don't care if their game has a female protagonist, just that the game is good (just as most women don't mind playing a game with a male protagonist, for the same reason).
In the end, a game with a single protagonist should be completely up to the developer on what gender and race they want the character to have, and, unless the situation calls for a specific gender (such as something like life in an all-female prison, etc) a game with an option to create your own character should have both genders available (and options to customize your character for any ethnicity). The latter just is smart business sense, as you can cater to the widest possible demographic, and the former just is letting the developer be free to make their game the way they want without any outside interference.
it has nothing to do with games i like or not, games like match 4 games are ridiculously basic and those types of games dominate mobile gaming.
i can't believe you would seriously argue that playing a game like that is what it means to be a gamer, i think if you are being honest you would admit that that is an extremely bad example of a game, i mean i agree with you that playing adventure games would count as a good example of mobile gaming, but come on, match 4
Pet Rescue Saga is basically Same Game (Sega Swirl) with the added complexity of having obstacles in the way and having to rescue a set number of pets. Since there is an added level of skill needed because of that, and because it gets progressively harder as the levels go on, I'd say that definitely counts as a good example of game design. If you strip Pac-Man down to its fundamentals, it's quite basic as well - just go through a maze eating dots and avoiding ghosts. It's the execution of the concept that matters, and both games do the execution well in my opinion (as do most of these types of games - there's a reason they're so popular after all).
And yet many of them don't. That's my point. There are lots of people who, while they don't play most other games, absolutely adore playing story-driven adventure games likes those of Telltale. And that's because what they want isn't simply a good story, but also the ability to actively participate in said story, something that only games can provide. And from what you said, it seems as though you wouldn't consider those people gamers. That's what I have issue with.
Why? Under your conceptualization of gamers as the electronic entertainment equivalent of foodies, why is a speed runner who only plays one game over and over again considered a gamer?
I agree that having merely played a video game does not make you a gamer, but I disagree that the definition is as strict as your foodie analogy. I don't think you need to like a certain quality of games or a certain number of game genres to be considered a gamer. I just think you need to enjoy playing games as a hobby. If someone got all the stars in Angry Birds, beat every level of Plants vs Zombies, and got to level 182 in Candy Crush, that's a gamer. If someone eagerly awaits the release of every Telltale title and downloads the episode as soon as they come out, that's a gamer. If someone spends 4 hours a day screwing around in The Sims, that's a gamer.
you mean somebody that wasn't really into games? right? because if so yeah i agree that a telltale game could be someone's "gateway game" but so could any game, and i was just arguing the point that someone who plays telltale games aren't gamers which you obviously disagree with.
so it was a counter argument to an argument you said and that you disagree with and now you are disagreeing with the counter argument to the argument you don't agree with, i didn't say if you play a telltale game you are automatically a harcore gamer, i argued against the idea the playing a telltale game means you aren't a gamer.
i have never heard of a speed runner who has only played one game, speed runners are hardcore experienced gamers who have decided to dedicate time to one game and perfect it, not someone who only played one game over and over
i think and most people agree that the foodie/gamer analogy is correct, it's just like any kind of enthusiast definition, you arent a book worm if you just read one book or a few 10 page books no matter how much you enjoy them, same with a film buff you need to watch more than one film or a few childrens films to be considered one, and that isn't strict at all that is just common to all enthusiast definitions (even if that enthusiasm doesn't have an established name), gamer means games enthusiast.
i have completed plants Vs zombies multiple times and gotten most of the plants in the nursery, it is one of the better casual games and i own almost all of the telltale games and i have put hundreds of hours into all versions of the sims, but if that was all i wouldn't consider myself a gamer or a games enthusiast, just more of a fan or casual player, i wouldn't even consider all the years i spent playing NES and Sega megadrive me being a gamer, it was when i started to play all kinds of genres of games and all kinds of play styles, and when i would look out for niche games or games that were interesting because they were different is when i became a gamer.
i like beer, i drink beer, there are some beers i really like, i have even brewed my own beer, but i am not a beer enthusiast, but that doesn't mean my opinions about beer are invalid or that there shouldn't be beer made that suits my tastes, or even that beer enthusiasts should look down on me, in fact encouragement to learn more and try more would be the best thing they could do, because i may end up being a beer enthusiast and encourage more people and eventually make the whole beer enthusiast community more accessible and mainstream (i totally wrung that analogy dry, but i hope i got my point across)
anyway gamer and gender have nothing to do with each other, however it just so happens for multiple known/unknown reasons there are more male gamers then female gamers
Ah, okay. Your beer enthusiast analogy and your statement about your NES/Sega days certainly does help to clarify where you're coming from.
I guess my point of contention here is that I think you set the bar for "gamer" too high. To the point where a very large portion of people who purchase and play video games don't meet the standards. Thus, it's not a great justification for such a wide trend in the video game market as the lack of female characters.
Restaurants and beer companies don't just cater to the foodies and the beer enthusiasts. In fact, they cater the most to the casual fans and larger public. Because those are the people they need to work the hardest to get to try their product. And the same concept holds when it comes to video games.
As a self-proclaimed gamer, you pride yourself on looking out for niche games that seem interesting to you. You enjoy the new and different. As such, you would be less likely than a non-gamer to pass by a game purely because the protagonist is not of your gender. And if more and more games come out that feature female protagonists, it's not like you're going to stop being a gamer. So why are video game companies still designing games to fit your slight preferences?
That's the curious part. Some video game developers seem to be under the impression that the vast majority of the market for video games are people like you, when that may not be the case at all. It's more of an issue of perception than one of demographics.
well i think gaming in general, is young (in the scale of things) it's is basically in the teenage years, i think it is attempting at the moment to be more like a mature adult ( a wide variety of games aimed at all kinds of people) but it doesn't quite get it right all the time.
maybe an example would be bioware, they do it quite well, but perhaps making everybody bisexual was not quite there, and making a character "full gay" was almost there, but ugh, could have presented it a bit better.
even though i am open to al kinds of games i do prefer a male player character, or at the very least a prominent male character i can identify with (especially a story heavy game) and i don't think that is backwards thinking, i think it is natural to want to identify with a character and first impressions count, so women wanting more female characters is totally fine or wanting stories in general that women can identify with better is fine, games that are aimed at everybody can work, but a lot of the time a specific audience can work much better.
i may not be as drawn to a game that isn't really aimed at me, but i won't protest at it's existence and maybe i will like it anyway, but maybe i just won't buy it eg. i didn't get life is strange, even though it has many things which appealed to me telltale like game structure, a cool time reverse mechanic and it looks nice, however when i watched the trailer there wasn't one male character who wasn't an asshole and that made me think it just wasn't for me, i watch orange is the new black and i sort of identify with the main character but really she seems more like my sister than me, and one of my complaints about the show (even thought i like it) is that there aren't any good male characters, the nicest guy in the show is the main characters brother and he isn't in it much and he is sort of a hobo, and a last example is the TV show once upon a time, where the main character is female but i generally (throughout the seasons) have identified with a male character "rumplestiltskin" .
so two out of three things generally aimed at women ain't bad, and i guess if game developers do it correctly they will probably get similar results for things aimed at either gender, i think it is happening but it will just take a bit more time for big developers especially to try new ideas, indie games are well ahead, but i don't think women want to be confined to only having indie games aimed at them forever.
"Companies demanding you change the protagonist to male"? Lol what? Where in my comment did I even imply that? The only absurdity here is your stubbornness to accept things the way they are. This is like telling a child who's begging for seconds that they already have a full plate of food. The gender of a character shouldn't matter that much to you anyway. And yes, this is coming from a woman.
She is smart, i respect her. She got famous on buthurt people.
i think there are more female characters than there are females playing games like this, if we're talking ratios here... The game I have personally seen he most females playing was probably left 4 dead/l4d2, where 1/4 of the characters were women. While I would say less than 1/10th of the players were female. I haven't taken a poll or anything but I would bet the numbers of male:female who played Alien:Isolation are similar. Developers aren't going to go out of their way to pander to women complaining about the lack of female characters in video games when most of them are playing Candy crush and farmville exclusively.
It's true that a lot of women play puzzle and simulation games exclusively, but women have always flocked to story based games. Even in the 1990's, 40% of gamers who played Sierra adventure games (one of the two largest developers of adventure games, when that genre was still one of the top selling genres of computer games) were women.
There are more women gamers now than there were then, and they're still flocking to adventure games. Women are now the majority of the casual adventure game market. Telltale's former design director Dave Grossman explains the reason why well in that article, as he states that the emphasis on drama and story has always made the genre appealing to women, as women generally tend to not prefer games that give an adrenaline rush, and find the emphasis on story and drama compelling.
No one is suggesting that the market pander to women, but there's no denying that the publishers who still insist that developers change the gender of their main character to male because they think games with female protagonists don't sell are living in the past. More women than ever are playing story based games, and men usually don't care if a game has a female protagonist, just as long as the game is good. If a developer wants to make a game with a female protagonist, that should be completely up to them, without the publisher interfering based on outdated statistics.