The 16-month gap still irks me. It's obviously the period of time that molded Clem from the wide-eyed innocent of season 1 to the hardened cynic of season 2, and excluding the player from that period only alienates us from the character.
Besides the three months between episode 1 and episode 2, we were with Lee and his group from the very beginning. We experienced their tragedies and triumphs as they experienced them. Now, we're not sure where we stand with Clementine, simply because we only rejoined her story sixteen months after Omid's murder. Clearly the fate of Christa's baby played another part in Clem's desensitization towards the world around her, but why keep that secret from the player for two entire episodes (or more, assuming Telltale doesn't tell us in part 3)?
As I said in another thread, the lazy, forced time-jump between seasons 1 and 2 killed any chance we may have had to witness a natural evolu… moretion in her character. The harsh, undeveloped change is guaranteed to dissuade some people, such as myself pre-episode 2. Once you understand what caused the change and accept that she could not possibly retain her season 1 personality under reasonable circumstances, it becomes easier to cope. That doesn't mean that every person is going to be pleased with the changes, because the two characters are so drastically different. It doesn't help that she is now the protagonist, meaning that the changes are going to appear even more harsh because part of her new personality is projected onto her by the player. This is unavoidable, and despite the many issues of using a character with a preestablished personality rather than a blank slate like Lee, it has worked fairly well for the most part.
That said, … [view original content]
I don't think she's desensitized at all. She's tougher and more mature but she still has a good heart. Even if you take some of the more manipulative dialog options towards Rebecca and Sarah, for example, she's hardly Machiavelli.
The 16-month gap still irks me. It's obviously the period of time that molded Clem from the wide-eyed innocent of season 1 to the hardened c… moreynic of season 2, and excluding the player from that period only alienates us from the character.
Besides the three months between episode 1 and episode 2, we were with Lee and his group from the very beginning. We experienced their tragedies and triumphs as they experienced them. Now, we're not sure where we stand with Clementine, simply because we only rejoined her story sixteen months after Omid's murder. Clearly the fate of Christa's baby played another part in Clem's desensitization towards the world around her, but why keep that secret from the player for two entire episodes (or more, assuming Telltale doesn't tell us in part 3)?
I seem to be using the "..." option a whole damn lot this season. Especially when the conversations get personal.
It keeps the "That little girl is a puzzle" vibe going.
And strangely enough it works out quite well most of the time.
Other than that I just make her do the right thing most of the time.
I seem to be using the "..." option a whole damn lot this season. Especially when the conversations get personal.
It keeps the "That little… more girl is a puzzle" vibe going.
And strangely enough it works out quite well most of the time.
Other than that I just make her do the right thing most of the time.
I don't really see it as her lacking confidence.
The way I interpret the silences is that she's trying to put the group's best interest ahead of herself. Trying to stay in the background as much as possible.
Like she says at the end of episode 1 of season 1, "I know I have to be tough..."
And then she pretty much stays tough until the end of episode 4.
Also a kid naturally deferring authority to adults. Even when she knows they're being idiots it's not necessarily easy to speak up when you're 11.
There were a couple of "don't make me choose" moments as well. Particularly when Luke/Nick started arguing with Kenny about whether Clem was staying or moving on. As Clem I just stabbed at the "stop arguing!" option.
I don't really see it as her lacking confidence.
The way I interpret the silences is that she's trying to put the group's best interest ah… moreead of herself. Trying to stay in the background as much as possible.
Like she says at the end of episode 1 of season 1, "I know I have to be tough..."
And then she pretty much stays tough until the end of episode 4.
I'm sure others have mentioned it before, but the reason Clementine's personality is what it is is her almost 2-year timeskip with Christa. Omid would be the joker in those situations, but after his death, Christa probably went all angsty+1 on her. There are moments of her kind personality every now and then, where her original innocence shines through, and those moments are made all the more sweet and wonderful because she's very, I'd say tired looking, in most of her controlled scenes.
That being said, I do agree that Clementine went through a lot during the timeskip that we didn't get to see. I understand that it may be more difficult to empathize because while we know something happened that shaped her, we weren't there for it.
It might also help that Lee was a fairly blank slate when we started playing season 1 and were free to mold him as we wished. We had no preconceived notions about who he was and what he was like. All we knew was that he was going to jail for a crime and that he wasn't all that confrontational on the average.
With Clem we had known her for a whole (gaming) season, so we've built up a personality around her based on what was and wasn't said. Now the time skip was needed, as a little 8 year old doing action scenes wouldn't be all that realistic. She wouldn't have enough strength of mental fortitude to battle the walkers. However, it's a double edged sword as it skipped through the character development of her becoming a more serious person. Personally, I think this could have been handled better through a still montage after the prologue. You know, show the credits but also show what happened in the months between the story. It would've given us an idea of what the characters went through and how they changed, but wouldn't have taken five hours to do so.
The only thing I don't like about the new Clem is her sassiness, she can come across as quite smug at times. If you wanted to play her that way like through her choice of words then fair enough, but sometimes this happens without your control.
If she's like this just because she spent a lot of time with Christa who I have to say is the most miserable and moodiest character on the game, then I'm not surprised Clem is like this now. I just hope TT lessen her attitude a bit as of now in the automatic dialogue. This also includes those dirty looks she gives out.
I think she lost her moral compass and innocence when she spent 16 months in the wilderness with nobody but Christa.
I think she realizes that her 'innocence' and always wanting to help someone was childish. Maybe she feels that her past attitude actions led to Lee's death
I think she lost her moral compass and innocence when she spent 16 months in the wilderness with nobody but Christa.
I think she realizes… more that her 'innocence' and always wanting to help someone was childish. Maybe she feels that her past attitude actions led to Lee's death
Yes but very touche subject on this forum i didn't mind she matured but complete personality change was crazy think all characteristic loved about clem little jokes, smiles never lie, steal or manipulate lessons i though her as lee next everything goes out window all her personality traits completely change to opposite extreme everyone knows at someones core can't change a person. But i wouldn't mind but like TLOU with ellie i accepted her sudden change as showed the extreme event resulted in her being more quiet and made me more hurt and feel for her more. If someone saw the events leading up to the change maybe 2 minute cut scene at start. Showing her struggles to get over lee over the months and big events could relate more and add lot of emotional depth to her current attitude.
Clementine being the "most competent member of the group" is pretty consistent with her first season self. She was always trying to help out, even going on missions with the others and she was only eight back then. Her characterization is consistent with her age and experiences. The only reason I can understand for why people want Clementine to be the same as she was in season one is because they like the feeling of being able to take care of her and they cant do that anymore because she's so independent. People have to let go and let her grow up.
Its been two years. Kids her age change a lot in that time even if they didnt have a zombie apocalypse to contend with. She is still the same person but her experiences, and losing so many people, has hardened her. It's not at all crazy. Spending a whole season watching her try to get over Lee would drag the game out and I dont think it would be very playable.
Yes but very touche subject on this forum i didn't mind she matured but complete personality change was crazy think all characteristic loved… more about clem little jokes, smiles never lie, steal or manipulate lessons i though her as lee next everything goes out window all her personality traits completely change to opposite extreme everyone knows at someones core can't change a person. But i wouldn't mind but like TLOU with ellie i accepted her sudden change as showed the extreme event resulted in her being more quiet and made me more hurt and feel for her more. If someone saw the events leading up to the change maybe 2 minute cut scene at start. Showing her struggles to get over lee over the months and big events could relate more and add lot of emotional depth to her current attitude.
Well time jump didn't reflect change well as all speculation to things which hardened and learned from 2 year skip without any cutscene to show fast forward events with clem missed two years of character development and in story driven game for me not acceptable and did little to explain what happened in skip. Down to player but for me not happy but see where your coming from. For players innocent little girl to hardened badass complete change with no decent explanation.
Agree would drag out but just little 2 minute cutscence flashback showing the big events of skip and her struggles to deal with death of lee would be appreciated
Its been two years. Kids her age change a lot in that time even if they didnt have a zombie apocalypse to contend with. She is still the sam… moree person but her experiences, and losing so many people, has hardened her. It's not at all crazy. Spending a whole season watching her try to get over Lee would drag the game out and I dont think it would be very playable.
Why does everything need to be explained? If you use your imagination, you can fill in the blanks. Put yourself in her shoes and you can understand the changes that have taken place in her. The character development is already there if you put in the work. Besides, you say this is a story driven game. The story is not watching Clementine change slowly, its about watching her survive and deal with her world now that she is older and more experienced and has suffered losses that most of us couldnt even imagine.
Well time jump didn't reflect change well as all speculation to things which hardened and learned from 2 year skip without any cutscene to … moreshow fast forward events with clem missed two years of character development and in story driven game for me not acceptable and did little to explain what happened in skip. Down to player but for me not happy but see where your coming from. For players innocent little girl to hardened badass complete change with no decent explanation.
Agree would drag out but just little 2 minute cutscence flashback showing the big events of skip and her struggles to deal with death of lee would be appreciated
I kind of thought she'd changed too much at first too, but she really is the same Clem. She puts on a tough persona because she wants to be taken seriously, but the old Clem shines though every once in a while, during her quieter moments. That's kind of just how 11 year old kids are, even without the zombie apocalypse.
Use your imagination lol love it. Not looking for slow change two minute cut-scene whole story based on writers imagination so filling in blanks is pointless but great excuse. Just like character more depth to understand new clem not crime
Why does everything need to be explained? If you use your imagination, you can fill in the blanks. Put yourself in her shoes and you can und… moreerstand the changes that have taken place in her. The character development is already there if you put in the work. Besides, you say this is a story driven game. The story is not watching Clementine change slowly, its about watching her survive and deal with her world now that she is older and more experienced and has suffered losses that most of us couldnt even imagine.
I cant imagine not being heartbroken that she died just because she's a little bit tougher and I cant imagine that's TT's plan either. Would you really not care if she died? How is that Lee can be a badass and Clem cant?
Maybe it takes someone who is a bit more empathetic and can put themselves in someone elses shoes. I had no problem understanding why and how Clementine changed but I guess people are different.
Maybe we will get some flashbacks. I wouldnt mind seeing Omid again.
Use your imagination lol love it. Not looking for slow change two minute cut-scene whole story based on writers imagination so filling in blanks is pointless but great excuse. Just like character more depth to understand new clem not crime
Maybe it takes someone who is a bit more empathetic and can put themselves in someone elses shoes. I had no problem understanding why and ho… morew Clementine changed but I guess people are different.
Maybe we will get some flashbacks. I wouldnt mind seeing Omid again.
She has witnessed the deaths of countless friends and loved ones over a 3-year period. She was clearly becoming desensitized even as season 1 progressed, how can you argue that she is not at all desensitized now? Even Sarah is desensitized to an extent. Being desensitized to violence and death =/= being an emotionless shell of a human being.
I don't think she's desensitized at all. She's tougher and more mature but she still has a good heart. Even if you take some of the more manipulative dialog options towards Rebecca and Sarah, for example, she's hardly Machiavelli.
There's growing up and then there's Clem becoming Lara croft sprinkled with a little Tyreese and Michone by the age of 11.The way we play as Clementine is a complete contradiction to how the Telltale team described the experience would be like when initially introducing their idea of her being the protagonist. It was initially said that because she is a child she wouldn't be as physical as Lee and would be using more evasive measures and using her wits to avoid the dead. Have I missed something here? Clem has been more physical in her first 2 episodes as lead than Lee was. Lee ran from walkers and slipped over from fear, Clem is taking the fight to the undead, Rambo style, taking out walkers single handedly. It won't be long before she is the leader of the group and the adults are relying on her to save them. All jokes aside in one episode she takes out a ferral dog, Arnie style, patches up her wound, Arnie style, "i'm thinking the predator movie, here", She takes out a zombie, using her environment in the way an action hero or action star would in a tight situation, "i'm thinking James Bond, right about now". All in one episode. I loved Clem in season 1 but i'm finding it harder seeing her as real person in the way I saw Lee ass a real person. Lee seemed more real than most video game protagonist as he didn't have great strength, he made errors, like tripping over, he panicked and struggled to make it. Clem just feels more "video gamey" than Lee did in season 1, if that makes any sense. I could very well be controlling Nariko from heavenly sword. I don't have any fear for her safety whatsoever. If she can patch up her arm what is it for her to get hit by Carver. If Carver had pushed or slapped the Clem we saw before Omid died it would have had a greater effect on me than it did when he struck her. When I barged Carver to save Alvin and he hit Clem I half expected her to spit out blood and say "is that all you?... Pussy".
I'm still enjoying the game I just felt that season 1 felt organic and more real to me as opossed to feeling "video gamey".
Clementine being the "most competent member of the group" is pretty consistent with her first season self. She was always trying to help out… more, even going on missions with the others and she was only eight back then. Her characterization is consistent with her age and experiences. The only reason I can understand for why people want Clementine to be the same as she was in season one is because they like the feeling of being able to take care of her and they cant do that anymore because she's so independent. People have to let go and let her grow up.
There's growing up and then there's Clem becoming Lara croft sprinkled with a little Tyreese and Michone by the age of 11.The way we play as… more Clementine is a complete contradiction to how the Telltale team described the experience would be like when initially introducing their idea of her being the protagonist. It was initially said that because she is a child she wouldn't be as physical as Lee and would be using more evasive measures and using her wits to avoid the dead. Have I missed something here? Clem has been more physical in her first 2 episodes as lead than Lee was. Lee ran from walkers and slipped over from fear, Clem is taking the fight to the undead, Rambo style, taking out walkers single handedly. It won't be long before she is the leader of the group and the adults are relying on her to save them. All jokes aside in one episode she takes out a ferral dog, Arnie style, patches up her wound, Arnie style, "i'm thinking the predat… [view original content]
is it hard to empathize with Clementine in the second episode? no, its not. In that sort of world you need ways to protect yourself. Anyone growing in zombie apocalypse will take a toll from it. seeing your friends die before you, seeing blood and bodies around you. its enough to change anyone. I don't really role-play like many other walking dead players walkthroughs I've seen. But I can picture that if I was in that world I would get a bit more sassy.
as for big eye innocent Clem from the 1st series really? this is the walking dead, people die often, there is no guarantee that there will be people be around her, that can help, protect her. and if there are people around there is a strong possibility that they are sick in the head or even violent. I love clem in the first series, but I realise that she couldn't stay like that. she would have died early if she didn't
I actually empathize more with her now. She isn't just players morality figure, we are now her in this dark world and she makes the choices we/she thinks are the best. Let go back in season 1 ep 2 ending. There's this abandon vehicle. If Ben or Katjaa would be the one saying we can't take that stuff, 99% would take it, but Clem, its a bit harder decision. She was that super innocent child which we protected, noe she "alone" in middle of all this, and that's interesting.
i think part of it is that most of our choices and decisions are forced on us. the illusion on choice is minimal, since all roads pretty much get the same reaction. you try to be nice to the dog, it bites you. you eat in front of the dog, it bites you. after fighting, the dog dies anyway, only difference is if you put it out of its misery. appealing to people at shed makes no difference beyond getting a person's opinion, you still get scolded for involving sarah, despite not saying anything, and not hearing her tell on you. hell, even the water is more or less useless. if you don't give it to the guy at river, you can give it to someone else, and it still affects nothing.
when everything you do ends up taking you down the same path, of course you'll have a hard time empathizing with clem. your choices do nothing but pick the tone at which she says or does something. that's it. the only time your choices affect the story itself is if somebody is gonna die. you aren't watching clem develop into a person that you've helped create. you aren't building her into some hardened little kid that'll do whatever it takes to survive, or a person that's desperately trying keep seeing the good in the world, or to help people that need it. there's a limited amount of conflicted moments, and those are the key things they show percentages for at the end of the episode.
season 2 might be ok, alot of people keep fighting that it's great, but to me, it just feels like there's either something missing or something getting shoved down my throat, and that kind of leaves me wanting. something i've always thought to myself on things like this, "great idea, but the follow up needs work." it just feels like they fell short of going that extra distance to make these episodes everything that they could and should have been.
For me, the way Clem is now in S2 is perfectly understandable. That one scene with Christa in the woods pretty much told me everything I needed to know. I can easily fill in the blanks myself. Yes, it would've been nice to see exactly what happened in that time but sometimes not seeing something can tell you just as much as it being explicitly spoon fed to you. The way Christa talked to Clem in that moment in contrast to how she was during the opening of the episode is very different. I think it's fairly obvious Christa was constantly very cold and distant with Clem. Christa definitely cares for Clem but I imagine her not being as close with her as Lee. More than likely instilling in her that she needs to lose that innocent personality if she wants to avoid another Lee or Omid situation. Kids are obviously very impressionable and spending so much time with someone that is constantly so distant with you and not worrying as much about being your friend, but rather just teaching survival then it's clear the reason Clem is the way she is now.
Plus, she's still not this completely hardened uncaring character either. She can still struggle with certain things. Taking out a walker with a hammer and then struggling to pull it back out; having her try to use a rifle and getting knocked on her ass; and then of course when Kenny is brought into the picture, more of the "old" Clem is brought out than we've seen since the first season. Also, it's ultimately up to you what kind of personality she has anyway. In S1 we had no control over what she said so we only got that one side of her in most situations. Plus, even though horrible things happened, i'm sure she was a lot more happy with the people around her during that time and i'm sure she felt a lot safer as well. I don't think she fully trusts who she is with at the moment and I think when she saw Kenny some of that fear, even if just a bit, was lifted off of her. There are certain scenes where she can get a bit "sassy" with people that you don't have control over. However, I think those are things she feels like she has to do rather than actually wanting to in order to not look weak.
I fully believe Clem is still that little girl from S1 in her heart and it comes out when she lets her guard down. But, she also knows that she can't be like that all the time anymore. I'm sure it's hard for most people who loved the first season to see what that world has done to the innocence of Clem and i'm sure it will take some people a lot longer to accept it, if at all. But, ultimately, I think the person Clem has become is absolutely necessary and that she would more than likely be dead if it wasn't for the change.
On a good note, i'm liking where S2 is going. I wasn't as sure during E1 but E2 was very good in my opinion. I enjoy playing as Clementine and I enjoy playing a good balance of the "good" Clem with the "bad ass/sassy" Clem
Well, the guys who wrote Clementine(Sean and Jake) don't work at telltale anymore, so that's something. I think Kenny is a good way to make … moreher go back to some of her roots in her personality. Kenny made her laugh and that's probably the first time she's done that since the events at Savannah.
Good point. Empathize =/= Sympathize. It's hard for any of us to empathize with Clem. Unless we lost our parents at a young age, it's hard to know what she's going through. I definitely sympathize with her, but it's impossible for me to empathize because I haven't gone through what she has. By the way, I love Clementine's character both ways.
I put empathize(to connect with someone emotionally based on similar experiences) in quotes because I have no personal experience that coinc… moreides with hers. Of course I felt attached to her in season 1 but I enjoy clem more when she has the morbid sense of realism that we're all going to die.
Clementine's more mature, but I don't think that I'm unable to empathize with her.
I do hope that there are future moments that allow her to connect with people and open up a bit though.. "Sometimes people die because of me," was a really heartfelt line. It shows that she's dealing with more than what she lets on, and I'd like to see how that develops with these new relationships.
What needs to be said, is that 2 years for a kid is a lot of time, and it's perfectly understandable that in an unforgiving world like this it could've had a growing-up-on-steroids effect. Once I watched a document about kids who survived Beslan school attack, and they all seemed very changed in terms of how one could expect a child to speak and behave.
It was initially said that because she is a child she wouldn't be as physical as Lee and would be using more evasive measures and using her wits to avoid the dead.
And she has. She hits their legs first and then the head. The last walker she kills in episode 2 you have the option to grab the knife and crawl under a picnic table so the walker gets stuck trying to reach her and she can easily kill the walker.
There's growing up and then there's Clem becoming Lara croft sprinkled with a little Tyreese and Michone by the age of 11.The way we play as… more Clementine is a complete contradiction to how the Telltale team described the experience would be like when initially introducing their idea of her being the protagonist. It was initially said that because she is a child she wouldn't be as physical as Lee and would be using more evasive measures and using her wits to avoid the dead. Have I missed something here? Clem has been more physical in her first 2 episodes as lead than Lee was. Lee ran from walkers and slipped over from fear, Clem is taking the fight to the undead, Rambo style, taking out walkers single handedly. It won't be long before she is the leader of the group and the adults are relying on her to save them. All jokes aside in one episode she takes out a ferral dog, Arnie style, patches up her wound, Arnie style, "i'm thinking the predat… [view original content]
Your point there is fundamentally crucial, one I think many players don't seem to realise, or to remember anymore, that, yes, she was clearly already starting to become affected and to process things during the course of the game. That in turn brings me to two points that I think need underscoring, that a certain range of comments and attitudes on the forum seem to be implying, and to which I would object. The first point runs counter to the point you've correctly made, and seems often reinforced by unwarranted reductions of the first season's Clementine into a caricature of stagnancy and ineptitude, the worst of these arising when laughable comparisons to Sarah are made in a vein of criticism. Had that been the case, I would not have given the game the time of day looking after a character so needy and frustrating and stunted in her capacity to develop--and just insufferably annoying in general. The second point is a corollary to the first and is made to justify both the magnitude of the time jump and the abrupt break of character that has been forced upon her, that in order to remedy this allegedly problematic Season I persona, she must be reintroduced as she has been now. Some might think me too struck by the magnitude of the jump or see me as uncharitable that I do not see her as being presented, acted out, or written and fleshed out convincingly as a desensitised girl whose emotional baggage I can perceive and relate to but instead as a lobotomised individual reduced to a vacuous shell whose character delivery seems artificial and ineffective and whose attempts at expressing some sort of coherent personality through the mechanics of gameplay dialogue prove far too malleable and void of grounding in something to give it solid cohesion, and therefore shallow. Maybe I should re-play the second episode with a more open mind, seeing it seems to have the ability to convince former nay-sayers from the previous episode, but I'm not confident that will do much, with the angle from which I'm viewing all this.
Firstly, as you've said, during the first season she begins to become desensitised and to react to and process her painful experience in the world. She is already on the path of change. A character arc has now begun and the game begins setting a pace for it and as events move forward, it seems to promise to us--and very seriously and heavily so--a future progression of that arc, as I believe was the original Season I writers' intention, in which our actions as Lee will play an influence and to which they will offer necessary context as it advances, context that will impart sense to how that desensitisation will in fact continue to develop within Clementine, and to how she will progressively react to it herself. Does she take to it, mentally reinforce it and embrace it, fight it tooth and nail, perceive it as a necessary and useful aid, or a deadening numbness and burden consuming and eating at her as her experiences multiply and their effects grow? What form should it take? What I mean to say is that there exists no such thing as a one character template or manifestation of personality for a desensitised individual, one that poses as some Platonic absolute to which all characters or young children in this universe are headed and destined for, that has for its name 'mechanical shell crafted of sullen world weariness and glum monotony, with the occasional smile", sufficiently bland and vanilla to offer us a platform to accommodate the mindset behind every concievable line of dialogue, a platform I can easily employ now in its current state to endow Clementine with a severe case of a split-personality disorder if I wanted to, yet having her still no less dull at her core.
The state of a desensitised individual has a context and a history to it involving not only shock, but successive stages of inner wrestling that gradually bring the character to where he is. And for the sake of compelling storytelling, it is imperative that this story should feature a diachronicity to it that has us bridge that gap of time. In the context of what Season I was all about, a desensitised Clementine cannot be a convincing or compelling character without a context that relates to the specifics of that transition and of the inner struggle that has fashioned it, especially since I would dare to say that already at the end of the first season, none of us had come out from this game carrying with us exactly the same Clementine that another player has--any more than was our case with Lee--even though we had all encountered the same girl at its start. Now I say that without any intent whatsoever to downplay or deny Clementine's core, integral personality and the acknowledgement that is her due of being a pre-established character--I rather continue to stress that point emphatically--but one can nonetheless state that each player's respective Clementine is at least unique in respect to the potential future direction of her still-nascent outlook and view of the world, to the orientation that could more likely eventually come to colour her perceptions and characterise her actions, and ultimately to the possibilities that would be faced on her path of development, including tension and conflict between her core character, her coming experiences, and faith or conviction (or future disillusionment) in the lessons or ethics that have been handed down to her, she in every unique playthrough having experienced different things, witnessed vastly different kinds of behaviour, reactions, and attitudes from her mentor and other characters, been imparted with different life lessons and philosophies of survival from the man whose extremely player-unique and playthrough-specific example has been most imprinted upon her mind, all of which has us players in sum exiting the game on divergingly different paths vis a vis the manner of effect which the immediate trials ahead will have on Clementine as well as her reactions and responses and manner of coping with and handling them, this Clementine still only beginning to step up on her own to face challenges and who has not yet been given the chance to apply her growing perceptions and outlook to coming situations or to put the lessons she has been taught into practice.
Consider: the game allows you the option of having Lee, who has faced the full blunt reality of the apocalypse, at the very moment of his death and demise to impart to Clementine advice as inconceivably antithetical and contradictory to survival as that warning her to resist becoming used to violence as it will consume her. In the final scene alone (and compounded by the full example you have offered throughout the game), by way of both your final decision (or your abstaining from it, for that matter) regarding whether she should end your life and the final lessons and parting dialogue, you are allowed in that scene alone a very wide range of differing points of view or survival/ethical philosophies and viewpoints, of parting and strongly impactful council, to instil and brand into Clementine's mind, ranging from the topic of trust to that of building confidence in herself vs realising her weakness and vulnerability as a little girl. In these alone, you will have charted for her an initial future trajectory possibly quite different from somebody else. Remember that despite that she has already been through much, it is only now at the close of the first season that she is quite alone, and therefore her experiences in the next chapter should test her and shape her character growth in ways more critical and different than what she has gone through in the first season. That intermediate role is necessary before you can jump to the point to which this second season has had the temerity to take us. What we have seen in Season I for all its intensity is not enough to explain the result that is her present character. That was but the kernel of it and its starting point, but what she would have had experienced throughout the intervening period of time has ultimately more of a shaping influence and the stronger causal relationship with what she is (if anything) right now. How can we as players identify or connect with how she is now without a personal connection with the events that have shaped her over the years?
Consider yet another example, if probably too polarised in the scenarios it presents: does she upon reflecting, let's say, on an impulsive act of vengeful harm she has committed and in the process of further desensitisation that follows it, find herself then when thinking of Lee, recalling the man who had not only killed one of the St John brothers in a fit of rage, but even when passions cooled down, calmly and collectively killed the second, and then explained to her that there was nothing wrong in killing such wicked men even if unnecessary (or perhaps does he tell her regrettably that he was wrong and in his actions and words to her down the line reverse course to reflect this, demonstrating to her the concepts of weakness, regret, and admission of mistakes?) or does she recall a Lee who was sufficiently wedded to his principles that he could take a restraining hold of his rage even at its impulsive peak and even spare the first brother, and who at his last wished to instill such a warning against the consuming effects of violence that he resigned himself to the sentence of an undead existence rather than push her to spare him such a fate with a bullet?
In the case of the first Lee, does his vindictive example reinforce her desensitisation by allowing her to embrace/surrender to a sense of legitimacy/inevitability in regard to her actions? If so, how does her initially constructed innocent side of her character struggle with her mentor's harsh and vindictive example (whether motivated by simple rage or the desire to protect a loved one at all costs)? Does it rebel against it in a panic? Or does she concede to it and take that example as a vindication of her action and start readily to embrace the desensitisation? (NB I understand that denensitisation is not synonymous with heartless cruelty, so I'll ask to be pardoned for letting go of semantic precision in all this.) In the case of the second Lee, she would find herself more easily coming to regret her action, as well as pushed to struggle actively against the numbing it has further caused, in heed to Lee's warning. However, given the impractical nature of the idealism of these lessons to the concept of survival, further trials that prove too much for her in the game might break her will and leave her disillusioned with everything Lee had taught her, even if he strengthened those lessons by example instead of mere words. It is in the myriad possibilities found in nuanced variables like these, and not in the quick lip service of simple in-game reminiscences, that the dynamics and complexity and potential for compelling character growth and storytelling can be tapped to provide immersion and create a strong bond between the player and main character.
This point in time that we are at right now can best count as a final third stretch of her story arc, where preceding events have already relatively solidified her personality, attitudes, and level or form or shape of desensitisation on the one hand, and her perceptions, ethics, and general outlook all backed by the context of past events on the other. It is at this third part of the arc that her mostly developed character can follow its way in a closing story up towards a final climax and resolution where events of critical impact can take place that might jar her so much as to change her radically (for example, an altruistic Clem who has persevered this far being finally driven by shock into complete disillusionment; an emotionally hardened, cruel and bitter Clem who has walked a path that has eaten away at her humanity suddenly being jolted back by shocking season events and the weight of regrets into turning her back on her bitter self and rediscovering the caring person she once was; or anything in between those two extremes).
She has witnessed the deaths of countless friends and loved ones over a 3-year period. She was clearly becoming desensitized even as season… more 1 progressed, how can you argue that she is not at all desensitized now? Even Sarah is desensitized to an extent. Being desensitized to violence and death =/= being an emotionless shell of a human being.
As I said before - choosing Clem for protagonist was A BAD IDEA. She's youngest kid in group but she's doing more than others. What the hell Alvin is for? He can't even go check cabin for food. But the most ridiculous part - turning off wind turbine! Don't tell me Clem is smarter than medic, adult educated man. Scene would look real if only Clem used lighter to help Carlos.
Comments
The 16-month gap still irks me. It's obviously the period of time that molded Clem from the wide-eyed innocent of season 1 to the hardened cynic of season 2, and excluding the player from that period only alienates us from the character.
Besides the three months between episode 1 and episode 2, we were with Lee and his group from the very beginning. We experienced their tragedies and triumphs as they experienced them. Now, we're not sure where we stand with Clementine, simply because we only rejoined her story sixteen months after Omid's murder. Clearly the fate of Christa's baby played another part in Clem's desensitization towards the world around her, but why keep that secret from the player for two entire episodes (or more, assuming Telltale doesn't tell us in part 3)?
I don't think she's desensitized at all. She's tougher and more mature but she still has a good heart. Even if you take some of the more manipulative dialog options towards Rebecca and Sarah, for example, she's hardly Machiavelli.
I seem to be using the "..." option a whole damn lot this season. Especially when the conversations get personal.
It keeps the "That little girl is a puzzle" vibe going.
And strangely enough it works out quite well most of the time.
Other than that I just make her do the right thing most of the time.
Yes, I'm using that more too. Seems natural that Clem would be less confident when interacting with adults than Lee might have been.
I don't really see it as her lacking confidence.
The way I interpret the silences is that she's trying to put the group's best interest ahead of herself. Trying to stay in the background as much as possible.
Like she says at the end of episode 1 of season 1, "I know I have to be tough..."
And then she pretty much stays tough until the end of episode 4.
Also a kid naturally deferring authority to adults. Even when she knows they're being idiots it's not necessarily easy to speak up when you're 11.
There were a couple of "don't make me choose" moments as well. Particularly when Luke/Nick started arguing with Kenny about whether Clem was staying or moving on. As Clem I just stabbed at the "stop arguing!" option.
I'm sure others have mentioned it before, but the reason Clementine's personality is what it is is her almost 2-year timeskip with Christa. Omid would be the joker in those situations, but after his death, Christa probably went all angsty+1 on her. There are moments of her kind personality every now and then, where her original innocence shines through, and those moments are made all the more sweet and wonderful because she's very, I'd say tired looking, in most of her controlled scenes.
That being said, I do agree that Clementine went through a lot during the timeskip that we didn't get to see. I understand that it may be more difficult to empathize because while we know something happened that shaped her, we weren't there for it.
It might also help that Lee was a fairly blank slate when we started playing season 1 and were free to mold him as we wished. We had no preconceived notions about who he was and what he was like. All we knew was that he was going to jail for a crime and that he wasn't all that confrontational on the average.
With Clem we had known her for a whole (gaming) season, so we've built up a personality around her based on what was and wasn't said. Now the time skip was needed, as a little 8 year old doing action scenes wouldn't be all that realistic. She wouldn't have enough strength of mental fortitude to battle the walkers. However, it's a double edged sword as it skipped through the character development of her becoming a more serious person. Personally, I think this could have been handled better through a still montage after the prologue. You know, show the credits but also show what happened in the months between the story. It would've given us an idea of what the characters went through and how they changed, but wouldn't have taken five hours to do so.
Gee, I wonder why she's not such a happy little girl anymore. What could have possibly caused a change in personality in a child growing up in the ZA.
I really have no idea what could have caused it
...
To answer your question, I still empathize with Clem. She's still the same character. Growing up is inevitable.
The only thing I don't like about the new Clem is her sassiness, she can come across as quite smug at times. If you wanted to play her that way like through her choice of words then fair enough, but sometimes this happens without your control.
If she's like this just because she spent a lot of time with Christa who I have to say is the most miserable and moodiest character on the game, then I'm not surprised Clem is like this now. I just hope TT lessen her attitude a bit as of now in the automatic dialogue. This also includes those dirty looks she gives out.
I think she lost her moral compass and innocence when she spent 16 months in the wilderness with nobody but Christa.
I think she realizes that her 'innocence' and always wanting to help someone was childish. Maybe she feels that her past attitude actions led to Lee's death
If she carries on with this new badass attitude then it might not be as heart breaking if she got killed off, maybe that's TTs plan?
Yes but very touche subject on this forum i didn't mind she matured but complete personality change was crazy think all characteristic loved about clem little jokes, smiles never lie, steal or manipulate lessons i though her as lee next everything goes out window all her personality traits completely change to opposite extreme everyone knows at someones core can't change a person. But i wouldn't mind but like TLOU with ellie i accepted her sudden change as showed the extreme event resulted in her being more quiet and made me more hurt and feel for her more. If someone saw the events leading up to the change maybe 2 minute cut scene at start. Showing her struggles to get over lee over the months and big events could relate more and add lot of emotional depth to her current attitude.
Clementine being the "most competent member of the group" is pretty consistent with her first season self. She was always trying to help out, even going on missions with the others and she was only eight back then. Her characterization is consistent with her age and experiences. The only reason I can understand for why people want Clementine to be the same as she was in season one is because they like the feeling of being able to take care of her and they cant do that anymore because she's so independent. People have to let go and let her grow up.
No matter how apathetic or badass she might become i would still be really upset if she where to die.
Its been two years. Kids her age change a lot in that time even if they didnt have a zombie apocalypse to contend with. She is still the same person but her experiences, and losing so many people, has hardened her. It's not at all crazy. Spending a whole season watching her try to get over Lee would drag the game out and I dont think it would be very playable.
Well, of course it's harder to empathize with a seasoned veteran of the zombie apocalypse than with a sweet and innocent little girl.
Well time jump didn't reflect change well as all speculation to things which hardened and learned from 2 year skip without any cutscene to show fast forward events with clem missed two years of character development and in story driven game for me not acceptable and did little to explain what happened in skip. Down to player but for me not happy but see where your coming from. For players innocent little girl to hardened badass complete change with no decent explanation.
Agree would drag out but just little 2 minute cutscence flashback showing the big events of skip and her struggles to deal with death of lee would be appreciated
Why does everything need to be explained? If you use your imagination, you can fill in the blanks. Put yourself in her shoes and you can understand the changes that have taken place in her. The character development is already there if you put in the work. Besides, you say this is a story driven game. The story is not watching Clementine change slowly, its about watching her survive and deal with her world now that she is older and more experienced and has suffered losses that most of us couldnt even imagine.
I kind of thought she'd changed too much at first too, but she really is the same Clem. She puts on a tough persona because she wants to be taken seriously, but the old Clem shines though every once in a while, during her quieter moments. That's kind of just how 11 year old kids are, even without the zombie apocalypse.
Use your imagination lol love it. Not looking for slow change two minute cut-scene whole story based on writers imagination so filling in blanks is pointless but great excuse. Just like character more depth to understand new clem not crime
I cant imagine not being heartbroken that she died just because she's a little bit tougher and I cant imagine that's TT's plan either. Would you really not care if she died? How is that Lee can be a badass and Clem cant?
Maybe it takes someone who is a bit more empathetic and can put themselves in someone elses shoes. I had no problem understanding why and how Clementine changed but I guess people are different.
Maybe we will get some flashbacks. I wouldnt mind seeing Omid again.
Missing point thread empathy shouldn't come into it there was 2 year skip unaccounted for empathy doesn't play any part
11 year olds can actually be quite smart and mature, so i dont think its that unrealistic for clem to act the way she does.
Well, I guess we are missing each other's points.
She has witnessed the deaths of countless friends and loved ones over a 3-year period. She was clearly becoming desensitized even as season 1 progressed, how can you argue that she is not at all desensitized now? Even Sarah is desensitized to an extent. Being desensitized to violence and death =/= being an emotionless shell of a human being.
There's growing up and then there's Clem becoming Lara croft sprinkled with a little Tyreese and Michone by the age of 11.The way we play as Clementine is a complete contradiction to how the Telltale team described the experience would be like when initially introducing their idea of her being the protagonist. It was initially said that because she is a child she wouldn't be as physical as Lee and would be using more evasive measures and using her wits to avoid the dead. Have I missed something here? Clem has been more physical in her first 2 episodes as lead than Lee was. Lee ran from walkers and slipped over from fear, Clem is taking the fight to the undead, Rambo style, taking out walkers single handedly. It won't be long before she is the leader of the group and the adults are relying on her to save them. All jokes aside in one episode she takes out a ferral dog, Arnie style, patches up her wound, Arnie style, "i'm thinking the predator movie, here", She takes out a zombie, using her environment in the way an action hero or action star would in a tight situation, "i'm thinking James Bond, right about now". All in one episode. I loved Clem in season 1 but i'm finding it harder seeing her as real person in the way I saw Lee ass a real person. Lee seemed more real than most video game protagonist as he didn't have great strength, he made errors, like tripping over, he panicked and struggled to make it. Clem just feels more "video gamey" than Lee did in season 1, if that makes any sense. I could very well be controlling Nariko from heavenly sword. I don't have any fear for her safety whatsoever. If she can patch up her arm what is it for her to get hit by Carver. If Carver had pushed or slapped the Clem we saw before Omid died it would have had a greater effect on me than it did when he struck her. When I barged Carver to save Alvin and he hit Clem I half expected her to spit out blood and say "is that all you?... Pussy".
I'm still enjoying the game I just felt that season 1 felt organic and more real to me as opossed to feeling "video gamey".
I really think you are exaggerating. She hasn't done anything out her capability.
is it hard to empathize with Clementine in the second episode? no, its not. In that sort of world you need ways to protect yourself. Anyone growing in zombie apocalypse will take a toll from it. seeing your friends die before you, seeing blood and bodies around you. its enough to change anyone. I don't really role-play like many other walking dead players walkthroughs I've seen. But I can picture that if I was in that world I would get a bit more sassy.
as for big eye innocent Clem from the 1st series really? this is the walking dead, people die often, there is no guarantee that there will be people be around her, that can help, protect her. and if there are people around there is a strong possibility that they are sick in the head or even violent. I love clem in the first series, but I realise that she couldn't stay like that. she would have died early if she didn't
I actually empathize more with her now. She isn't just players morality figure, we are now her in this dark world and she makes the choices we/she thinks are the best. Let go back in season 1 ep 2 ending. There's this abandon vehicle. If Ben or Katjaa would be the one saying we can't take that stuff, 99% would take it, but Clem, its a bit harder decision. She was that super innocent child which we protected, noe she "alone" in middle of all this, and that's interesting.
It's just my opinion so please no hate.
i think part of it is that most of our choices and decisions are forced on us. the illusion on choice is minimal, since all roads pretty much get the same reaction. you try to be nice to the dog, it bites you. you eat in front of the dog, it bites you. after fighting, the dog dies anyway, only difference is if you put it out of its misery. appealing to people at shed makes no difference beyond getting a person's opinion, you still get scolded for involving sarah, despite not saying anything, and not hearing her tell on you. hell, even the water is more or less useless. if you don't give it to the guy at river, you can give it to someone else, and it still affects nothing.
when everything you do ends up taking you down the same path, of course you'll have a hard time empathizing with clem. your choices do nothing but pick the tone at which she says or does something. that's it. the only time your choices affect the story itself is if somebody is gonna die. you aren't watching clem develop into a person that you've helped create. you aren't building her into some hardened little kid that'll do whatever it takes to survive, or a person that's desperately trying keep seeing the good in the world, or to help people that need it. there's a limited amount of conflicted moments, and those are the key things they show percentages for at the end of the episode.
season 2 might be ok, alot of people keep fighting that it's great, but to me, it just feels like there's either something missing or something getting shoved down my throat, and that kind of leaves me wanting. something i've always thought to myself on things like this, "great idea, but the follow up needs work." it just feels like they fell short of going that extra distance to make these episodes everything that they could and should have been.
For me, the way Clem is now in S2 is perfectly understandable. That one scene with Christa in the woods pretty much told me everything I needed to know. I can easily fill in the blanks myself. Yes, it would've been nice to see exactly what happened in that time but sometimes not seeing something can tell you just as much as it being explicitly spoon fed to you. The way Christa talked to Clem in that moment in contrast to how she was during the opening of the episode is very different. I think it's fairly obvious Christa was constantly very cold and distant with Clem. Christa definitely cares for Clem but I imagine her not being as close with her as Lee. More than likely instilling in her that she needs to lose that innocent personality if she wants to avoid another Lee or Omid situation. Kids are obviously very impressionable and spending so much time with someone that is constantly so distant with you and not worrying as much about being your friend, but rather just teaching survival then it's clear the reason Clem is the way she is now.
Plus, she's still not this completely hardened uncaring character either. She can still struggle with certain things. Taking out a walker with a hammer and then struggling to pull it back out; having her try to use a rifle and getting knocked on her ass; and then of course when Kenny is brought into the picture, more of the "old" Clem is brought out than we've seen since the first season. Also, it's ultimately up to you what kind of personality she has anyway. In S1 we had no control over what she said so we only got that one side of her in most situations. Plus, even though horrible things happened, i'm sure she was a lot more happy with the people around her during that time and i'm sure she felt a lot safer as well. I don't think she fully trusts who she is with at the moment and I think when she saw Kenny some of that fear, even if just a bit, was lifted off of her. There are certain scenes where she can get a bit "sassy" with people that you don't have control over. However, I think those are things she feels like she has to do rather than actually wanting to in order to not look weak.
I fully believe Clem is still that little girl from S1 in her heart and it comes out when she lets her guard down. But, she also knows that she can't be like that all the time anymore. I'm sure it's hard for most people who loved the first season to see what that world has done to the innocence of Clem and i'm sure it will take some people a lot longer to accept it, if at all. But, ultimately, I think the person Clem has become is absolutely necessary and that she would more than likely be dead if it wasn't for the change.
On a good note, i'm liking where S2 is going. I wasn't as sure during E1 but E2 was very good in my opinion. I enjoy playing as Clementine and I enjoy playing a good balance of the "good" Clem with the "bad ass/sassy" Clem
Do you know why they left? I noticed Sean Vanaman's name missing from this season's credits.
Good point. Empathize =/= Sympathize. It's hard for any of us to empathize with Clem. Unless we lost our parents at a young age, it's hard to know what she's going through. I definitely sympathize with her, but it's impossible for me to empathize because I haven't gone through what she has. By the way, I love Clementine's character both ways.
Clementine's more mature, but I don't think that I'm unable to empathize with her.
I do hope that there are future moments that allow her to connect with people and open up a bit though.. "Sometimes people die because of me," was a really heartfelt line. It shows that she's dealing with more than what she lets on, and I'd like to see how that develops with these new relationships.
What needs to be said, is that 2 years for a kid is a lot of time, and it's perfectly understandable that in an unforgiving world like this it could've had a growing-up-on-steroids effect. Once I watched a document about kids who survived Beslan school attack, and they all seemed very changed in terms of how one could expect a child to speak and behave.
And she has. She hits their legs first and then the head. The last walker she kills in episode 2 you have the option to grab the knife and crawl under a picnic table so the walker gets stuck trying to reach her and she can easily kill the walker.
Your point there is fundamentally crucial, one I think many players don't seem to realise, or to remember anymore, that, yes, she was clearly already starting to become affected and to process things during the course of the game. That in turn brings me to two points that I think need underscoring, that a certain range of comments and attitudes on the forum seem to be implying, and to which I would object. The first point runs counter to the point you've correctly made, and seems often reinforced by unwarranted reductions of the first season's Clementine into a caricature of stagnancy and ineptitude, the worst of these arising when laughable comparisons to Sarah are made in a vein of criticism. Had that been the case, I would not have given the game the time of day looking after a character so needy and frustrating and stunted in her capacity to develop--and just insufferably annoying in general. The second point is a corollary to the first and is made to justify both the magnitude of the time jump and the abrupt break of character that has been forced upon her, that in order to remedy this allegedly problematic Season I persona, she must be reintroduced as she has been now. Some might think me too struck by the magnitude of the jump or see me as uncharitable that I do not see her as being presented, acted out, or written and fleshed out convincingly as a desensitised girl whose emotional baggage I can perceive and relate to but instead as a lobotomised individual reduced to a vacuous shell whose character delivery seems artificial and ineffective and whose attempts at expressing some sort of coherent personality through the mechanics of gameplay dialogue prove far too malleable and void of grounding in something to give it solid cohesion, and therefore shallow. Maybe I should re-play the second episode with a more open mind, seeing it seems to have the ability to convince former nay-sayers from the previous episode, but I'm not confident that will do much, with the angle from which I'm viewing all this.
Firstly, as you've said, during the first season she begins to become desensitised and to react to and process her painful experience in the world. She is already on the path of change. A character arc has now begun and the game begins setting a pace for it and as events move forward, it seems to promise to us--and very seriously and heavily so--a future progression of that arc, as I believe was the original Season I writers' intention, in which our actions as Lee will play an influence and to which they will offer necessary context as it advances, context that will impart sense to how that desensitisation will in fact continue to develop within Clementine, and to how she will progressively react to it herself. Does she take to it, mentally reinforce it and embrace it, fight it tooth and nail, perceive it as a necessary and useful aid, or a deadening numbness and burden consuming and eating at her as her experiences multiply and their effects grow? What form should it take? What I mean to say is that there exists no such thing as a one character template or manifestation of personality for a desensitised individual, one that poses as some Platonic absolute to which all characters or young children in this universe are headed and destined for, that has for its name 'mechanical shell crafted of sullen world weariness and glum monotony, with the occasional smile", sufficiently bland and vanilla to offer us a platform to accommodate the mindset behind every concievable line of dialogue, a platform I can easily employ now in its current state to endow Clementine with a severe case of a split-personality disorder if I wanted to, yet having her still no less dull at her core.
The state of a desensitised individual has a context and a history to it involving not only shock, but successive stages of inner wrestling that gradually bring the character to where he is. And for the sake of compelling storytelling, it is imperative that this story should feature a diachronicity to it that has us bridge that gap of time. In the context of what Season I was all about, a desensitised Clementine cannot be a convincing or compelling character without a context that relates to the specifics of that transition and of the inner struggle that has fashioned it, especially since I would dare to say that already at the end of the first season, none of us had come out from this game carrying with us exactly the same Clementine that another player has--any more than was our case with Lee--even though we had all encountered the same girl at its start. Now I say that without any intent whatsoever to downplay or deny Clementine's core, integral personality and the acknowledgement that is her due of being a pre-established character--I rather continue to stress that point emphatically--but one can nonetheless state that each player's respective Clementine is at least unique in respect to the potential future direction of her still-nascent outlook and view of the world, to the orientation that could more likely eventually come to colour her perceptions and characterise her actions, and ultimately to the possibilities that would be faced on her path of development, including tension and conflict between her core character, her coming experiences, and faith or conviction (or future disillusionment) in the lessons or ethics that have been handed down to her, she in every unique playthrough having experienced different things, witnessed vastly different kinds of behaviour, reactions, and attitudes from her mentor and other characters, been imparted with different life lessons and philosophies of survival from the man whose extremely player-unique and playthrough-specific example has been most imprinted upon her mind, all of which has us players in sum exiting the game on divergingly different paths vis a vis the manner of effect which the immediate trials ahead will have on Clementine as well as her reactions and responses and manner of coping with and handling them, this Clementine still only beginning to step up on her own to face challenges and who has not yet been given the chance to apply her growing perceptions and outlook to coming situations or to put the lessons she has been taught into practice.
Consider: the game allows you the option of having Lee, who has faced the full blunt reality of the apocalypse, at the very moment of his death and demise to impart to Clementine advice as inconceivably antithetical and contradictory to survival as that warning her to resist becoming used to violence as it will consume her. In the final scene alone (and compounded by the full example you have offered throughout the game), by way of both your final decision (or your abstaining from it, for that matter) regarding whether she should end your life and the final lessons and parting dialogue, you are allowed in that scene alone a very wide range of differing points of view or survival/ethical philosophies and viewpoints, of parting and strongly impactful council, to instil and brand into Clementine's mind, ranging from the topic of trust to that of building confidence in herself vs realising her weakness and vulnerability as a little girl. In these alone, you will have charted for her an initial future trajectory possibly quite different from somebody else. Remember that despite that she has already been through much, it is only now at the close of the first season that she is quite alone, and therefore her experiences in the next chapter should test her and shape her character growth in ways more critical and different than what she has gone through in the first season. That intermediate role is necessary before you can jump to the point to which this second season has had the temerity to take us. What we have seen in Season I for all its intensity is not enough to explain the result that is her present character. That was but the kernel of it and its starting point, but what she would have had experienced throughout the intervening period of time has ultimately more of a shaping influence and the stronger causal relationship with what she is (if anything) right now. How can we as players identify or connect with how she is now without a personal connection with the events that have shaped her over the years?
Consider yet another example, if probably too polarised in the scenarios it presents: does she upon reflecting, let's say, on an impulsive act of vengeful harm she has committed and in the process of further desensitisation that follows it, find herself then when thinking of Lee, recalling the man who had not only killed one of the St John brothers in a fit of rage, but even when passions cooled down, calmly and collectively killed the second, and then explained to her that there was nothing wrong in killing such wicked men even if unnecessary (or perhaps does he tell her regrettably that he was wrong and in his actions and words to her down the line reverse course to reflect this, demonstrating to her the concepts of weakness, regret, and admission of mistakes?) or does she recall a Lee who was sufficiently wedded to his principles that he could take a restraining hold of his rage even at its impulsive peak and even spare the first brother, and who at his last wished to instill such a warning against the consuming effects of violence that he resigned himself to the sentence of an undead existence rather than push her to spare him such a fate with a bullet?
In the case of the first Lee, does his vindictive example reinforce her desensitisation by allowing her to embrace/surrender to a sense of legitimacy/inevitability in regard to her actions? If so, how does her initially constructed innocent side of her character struggle with her mentor's harsh and vindictive example (whether motivated by simple rage or the desire to protect a loved one at all costs)? Does it rebel against it in a panic? Or does she concede to it and take that example as a vindication of her action and start readily to embrace the desensitisation? (NB I understand that denensitisation is not synonymous with heartless cruelty, so I'll ask to be pardoned for letting go of semantic precision in all this.) In the case of the second Lee, she would find herself more easily coming to regret her action, as well as pushed to struggle actively against the numbing it has further caused, in heed to Lee's warning. However, given the impractical nature of the idealism of these lessons to the concept of survival, further trials that prove too much for her in the game might break her will and leave her disillusioned with everything Lee had taught her, even if he strengthened those lessons by example instead of mere words. It is in the myriad possibilities found in nuanced variables like these, and not in the quick lip service of simple in-game reminiscences, that the dynamics and complexity and potential for compelling character growth and storytelling can be tapped to provide immersion and create a strong bond between the player and main character.
This point in time that we are at right now can best count as a final third stretch of her story arc, where preceding events have already relatively solidified her personality, attitudes, and level or form or shape of desensitisation on the one hand, and her perceptions, ethics, and general outlook all backed by the context of past events on the other. It is at this third part of the arc that her mostly developed character can follow its way in a closing story up towards a final climax and resolution where events of critical impact can take place that might jar her so much as to change her radically (for example, an altruistic Clem who has persevered this far being finally driven by shock into complete disillusionment; an emotionally hardened, cruel and bitter Clem who has walked a path that has eaten away at her humanity suddenly being jolted back by shocking season events and the weight of regrets into turning her back on her bitter self and rediscovering the caring person she once was; or anything in between those two extremes).
As I said before - choosing Clem for protagonist was A BAD IDEA. She's youngest kid in group but she's doing more than others. What the hell Alvin is for? He can't even go check cabin for food. But the most ridiculous part - turning off wind turbine! Don't tell me Clem is smarter than medic, adult educated man. Scene would look real if only Clem used lighter to help Carlos.