I like both to be honest and I think the sudden turn around was her losing everyone she cared for and the fact she has been in this world for over 2 years now,she has grown in the time we haven't seen her.
Now, let's talk about Clementine as the main, playable character in Season 2, which is really a bad idea. Clementine, throughout season 1, a… morected as an moral compass for Lee Everett. No matter how bad the world turned out to be, Clementine constantly reminded Lee that there is still humanity in a dying world.
This so much. I'll never understand why most players liked doing a complete 360 to Clem's character from S1. It's fine if you prefer a 'badass' Clementine over the innocent one in S1, but I'll always play Clem as how Lee viewed her right to the end :"The only good thing left in the world", which blatantly referred to her humanity and innocence.
I never called Rebecca out on the baby. I never said anything like "Still not bitten" or "Let's take 'em." As long as Telltale gives me the options to play closely as an innocent Clem, I'll do it.
Hell if I'm playing Clem in S2 the way Kirkman would want me to.
Episodic gaming is what they do. You cant fault them for making the game that way. The only alternative is to have a completely different company do it and have completely different results that you might not like so much.
I have to admit that I was kinda dick.
You two have opened my eyes.
I'll edit the comment little bit and (almost) never complain about others opinions.
Like I mentioned before, this game is not like mass effect, where you have to do what your characters think is right. In the walking dead, you do what YOU think is right and eventually, you get so immersed that you feel you are the character, including the ability to share the characters happiness and guilt, which is the reason why playing as Clementine or introducing her in Season 2 is a bad idea:
For most players, It is harder to relate to a little girl than a 37 year old man
Some players may not realize this but by playing as Clementine, you have to role play her in order for her story to make sense. For example when Clementine reunites with Kenny, she really shouldn't be as happy as many of the players make her out to be. The main reason why so many players hugged Kenny and chose Kenny over Luke was that they thought about Lee's relationship with Kenny more than Clementine's. It makes sense for Clementine to choose Luke because their relation, while short, is more meaningful than Clem's 3-4 months relation with Kenny. Hell, in Season 1, Clementine rarely interacted with Kenny and when they did, they disagreed ed with each other on basically everything.
Even if the devs didn't want Clementine to be left in the dark, they still shouldn't have made her a playable character. If anything, Clementine should have been a side character in season 2 that made her choices based on what lee taught her but even that is a bad idea because the player will treat Clementine differently due to the Lee-Clem relationship in Season 1 and not view her as just a girl.
For most players, It is harder to relate to a little girl than a 37 year old man
Subjective.
Some players may not realize this but by playing as Clementine, you have to role play her in order for her story to make sense. For example when Clementine reunites with Kenny, she really shouldn't be as happy as many of the players make her out to be. The main reason why so many players hugged Kenny and chose Kenny over Luke was that they thought about Lee's relationship with Kenny more than Clementine's. It makes sense for Clementine to choose Luke because their relation, while short, is more meaningful than Clem's 3-4 months relation with Kenny. Hell, in Season 1, Clementine rarely interacted with Kenny and when they did, they disagreed ed with each other on basically everything.
Exactly, you role-play. Maybe your Clementine liked Kenny? Maybe she/you now are just happy to see a familiar face? It is now you who are projecting yourself into Clementine, trying to say how she would've acted, and that is fine. Maybe your Clem didn't like Kenny.
So you're telling us that spending 5 months together they won't be friends if I remember correctly he states that if you fed duck and Clem he wants you to com with him when he decides to leaveThat makes sense
You're trying to speak for the majority please don't you're coming off as somebody he thinks they know more than everybody else
Like I said before whether you like it or not ttg twdg is based around clementine she's THE main character season 1 was to prepare her season 2 is to see how your advice affects her and you decide
I wholeheartedly disagree.
Comparing two different games in the first place is out of place. In case you didn't know, Each developer does… more things differently and the way they think its convenient for them and their success. Telltale adopted this Episodic format and they've had a blast so far so I really don't know what the deal is.
Seriously ? I've always seen Clementine's and Lee's stories as two separate. The whole purpose of Season 1 was for us to prepare Clem and help her develop into an experienced survivor. Lee's story ended in Season 1, the man got to redeem himself and is now R.I.P.
Clementine's story is just beginning.
I do agree that leaving Clementine's fate unknown would be a good ending to the series. But after just Season 1 ? Seriously ?
Actually, about the foreshadowed thing, it most definitely was not. Here's a quote from someone who was on Playing Dead (Harrison Pink, I think): "If it felt like Clem was going to do what the player wanted her to do, then we did our jobs."
But with Season 2, they're saying that she definitely called out, and if you thought otherwise, you were WRONG.
100% this. I can't believe people are complaining that Clem is the protagonist of Season Two. It was foreshadowed even back in the first Sea… moreson. She's the main protagonist of the entire Telltale series, not just Season Two. She's the centerfold of everything. And her being a moral compass worked. But it's also a great thing making HER the successor of Lee since you as Lee, trained her to be able to fend for herself. And thus, when she took over as the main character of the series over Lee it was perfectly suited for the story purpose and her general character. Nobody knew Clementine as much as Lee, and if you were to play as someone else who barely knows her that just wouldn't work at all. Only person left who knows Clementine as well as Lee did is herself. She was always intended to be Lee's successor, there's no question in that.
Christ I really hope Telltale ignore these "Criticisms" because if they don't they might decide to make a new… [view original content]
Episode 1- 1 day
Episode 2- 3 months gap
Episode 3- A few weeks at most
Episode 4- 1 Day
Episode 5- Probably not even a day
Clem throughout season 1 never interacted with him as much as the other Characters
Also kenny wanted to Lee and clem to come with him based on what Lee did- not Clem as a way of thanking him. Also just because they've been together for quite a while doesn't mean they become friends...ahhem Larry
. However, he is not willing to help Lee in episode 4 find Clementine if you simply didn't side with him once. The only thing my Lee didn't do was kill larry but apart from that I sided with.
Also give me ONE example where Clem and kenny actually agreed with each other.
Kenny wanted to steal food while Clem didn't, which ultimately got Clem captured by the crazy stranger guy.
Kenny wanted to throw Ben, who was Clem's friend out
I'm sure there are much more examples of the two conflicting but at best, Clem probably only feels sorry for Kenny and I'm willing to bet than in the 2 year period where they didn't meet, Kenny was the last thing on her mind.
The point of season 1 was not to prepare Clem for season 2, but to discover who Lee truly is, which is a caring father. When you talk to the stranger at the end of episode 5, you have the option of telling him that Lee hurt is wife and what he truly wanted was a family but his wife didn't agree.
Also, Clem, through season 1 is like a moral compass for Lee. Her presence really changes what choices the player makes. She is there to remind Lee that there is still humanity left in the world. Like what Lee said to ben - Clementine is the only good thing about this world.
Like I said before, this game isn't about role playing, but about connecting with the characters and feel what they feel. You become the father and Clem becomes the daughter. However, season 2 just makes you play Clem, which screws everything up. They should have just dropped Clementine's story after season 1.
This is my opinion and I'm not trying to speak for the majority.
So you're telling us that spending 5 months together they won't be friends if I remember correctly he states that if you fed duck and Clem h… moree wants you to com with him when he decides to leaveThat makes sense
You're trying to speak for the majority please don't you're coming off as somebody he thinks they know more than everybody else
Like I said before whether you like it or not ttg twdg is based around clementine she's THE main character season 1 was to prepare her season 2 is to see how your advice affects her and you decide
For most players, It is harder to relate to a little girl than a 37 year old man
Subjective.
Some players may not realize this… more but by playing as Clementine, you have to role play her in order for her story to make sense. For example when Clementine reunites with Kenny, she really shouldn't be as happy as many of the players make her out to be. The main reason why so many players hugged Kenny and chose Kenny over Luke was that they thought about Lee's relationship with Kenny more than Clementine's. It makes sense for Clementine to choose Luke because their relation, while short, is more meaningful than Clem's 3-4 months relation with Kenny. Hell, in Season 1, Clementine rarely interacted with Kenny and when they did, they disagreed ed with each other on basically everything.
Exactly, you role-play. Maybe your Clementine liked Kenny? Maybe she/you now are just happy to see a familiar face? It is now you who are projecting … [view original content]
If you're not speaking for majority then don't use words like "most " ( ex: For most players, It is harder to relate to a little girl than a 37 year old man trying placing IMO before saying that as you may not realize it but your words make it seem like you're trying to speak for majority)
And I'll repeat this again the game is about CLEMENTINE AND lees path to redemption by taking care of HER about number 2 when somebody gets your family killed are you gonna think if they're someone elses friend and don't try to use the "oh if you didn't side with him once" stuff on my first playthrough I didn't agree with him why because I helped his family when they needed it the ony reason he won't help is if you absolutely didn't help him at all
But you know what forget it I'm not gonna waste my time now good day to you sir
4 months at most
Episode 1- 1 day
Episode 2- 3 months gap
Episode 3- A few weeks at most
Episode 4- 1 Day
Episode 5- Probably not eve… moren a day
Clem throughout season 1 never interacted with him as much as the other Characters
Also kenny wanted to Lee and clem to come with him based on what Lee did- not Clem as a way of thanking him. Also just because they've been together for quite a while doesn't mean they become friends...ahhem Larry
. However, he is not willing to help Lee in episode 4 find Clementine if you simply didn't side with him once. The only thing my Lee didn't do was kill larry but apart from that I sided with.
Also give me ONE example where Clem and kenny actually agreed with each other.
* Kenny wanted to steal food while Clem didn't, which ultimately got Clem captured by the crazy stranger guy.
* Kenny wanted to throw Ben, who was Clem's friend out
I'm sure there are much more examples of the two confli… [view original content]
Now, let's talk about Clementine as the main, playable character in Season 2, which is really a bad idea. Clementine, throughout season 1, a… morected as an moral compass for Lee Everett. No matter how bad the world turned out to be, Clementine constantly reminded Lee that there is still humanity in a dying world.
This so much. I'll never understand why most players liked doing a complete 360 to Clem's character from S1. It's fine if you prefer a 'badass' Clementine over the innocent one in S1, but I'll always play Clem as how Lee viewed her right to the end :"The only good thing left in the world", which blatantly referred to her humanity and innocence.
I never called Rebecca out on the baby. I never said anything like "Still not bitten" or "Let's take 'em." As long as Telltale gives me the options to play closely as an innocent Clem, I'll do it.
Hell if I'm playing Clem in S2 the way Kirkman would want me to.
Most people who play games of the zombie genre are males. While this game is not the typical zombie game, it still has typical more male players than female.
I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who play this game are young adult males, therefor it's easier for them to relate to a middle aged male than a little girl.
Again, I lost count of the number of times I used Imo so forgive meh if I sounded like that. Just imagine it as my opinion.
Btw the most important choice in the Kenny relationship is killing larry or not. If you help him kill larry, he will almost always go off with you at the end of episode 4 but if you try to save Larry, no matter what you do, he will give you the "will you be there for me" dialogue.
We'll just reach agree to disagree. Seems like you don't understand me.
If you're not speaking for majority then don't use words like "most " ( ex: For most players, It is harder to relate to a little girl than a… more 37 year old man trying placing IMO before saying that as you may not realize it but your words make it seem like you're trying to speak for majority)
And I'll repeat this again the game is about CLEMENTINE AND lees path to redemption by taking care of HER about number 2 when somebody gets your family killed are you gonna think if they're someone elses friend and don't try to use the "oh if you didn't side with him once" stuff on my first playthrough I didn't agree with him why because I helped his family when they needed it the ony reason he won't help is if you absolutely didn't help him at all
But you know what forget it I'm not gonna waste my time now good day to you sir
Role playing in games, in my opinion, is doing things what you think your character would do. For example, bio ware games in many cases let you be the good or evil person; some players be good for the sake of being good and vice versa.
A good example of role playing in this game is choosing between Luke and Kenny. You have to choose what Clementine thinks of Kenny not how you think of him because obviously you (the player) know alot more about kenny than Clementine, therefor it's harder to relate to her in that situation.
I don't think role playing should be present in this game because the best thing about this game was that you chose what YOU thought was the best option, not you choosing what your character thinks.
Answer me this. In season 1, did you feel that the game made you feel guilty for some of your decisions and happy in others? Did you feel that you, in some cases ACTUALLY become Lee?
I saw the line "Now, let's talk about Clementine as the main, playable character in Season 2, which is really a bad idea" and decided I didn't care and didn't read this.
Ah, okay, I do see your point. Yes, that is one of the problems of having her as a protagonist; a character more or less defined, versus the almost blank slate that Lee was.
The thing is, while some people are tied to their "continuity", who they think their Clementine is, their role play, as you put it... I feel that I am not. I defend those playsytles and understand why they do as they do, and appreciate TT giving the options to live that.
I have, however, accepted her as who I am now. I do not roleplay the way you put it. I am her, she is I. In how I play her, I feel the teachings of my Lee are more vivid than ever because I was that version of Lee, and that essence lives on through her. And that, contrary to popular belief does not mean I will always choose "Sassy Clem". I can connect with Clementine, what she has seen and who she is. I am double her age and of the opposite gender and yet I can connect with her fine. I guess I am of the lucky ones that feel the way Telltale intended.
To me, role play encompasses everything that makes your character be who you want them to be, based on the morals you impose them based on whatever you wish or your very own.
Role playing in games, in my opinion, is doing things what you think your character would do. For example, bio ware games in many cases let … moreyou be the good or evil person; some players be good for the sake of being good and vice versa.
A good example of role playing in this game is choosing between Luke and Kenny. You have to choose what Clementine thinks of Kenny not how you think of him because obviously you (the player) know alot more about kenny than Clementine, therefor it's harder to relate to her in that situation.
I don't think role playing should be present in this game because the best thing about this game was that you chose what YOU thought was the best option, not you choosing what your character thinks.
Answer me this. In season 1, did you feel that the game made you feel guilty for some of your decisions and happy in others? Did you feel that you, in some cases ACTUALLY become Lee?
I saw the line "Now, let's talk about Clementine as the main, playable character in Season 2, which is really a bad idea" and decided I didn't care and didn't read this.
The only thing I truly agree with is the episodes. I think they should have completed them all fully, then they could have released them monthly or every two weeks for suspense, rather than because they hadnt actually completed them.
I read you summary of your last point in a response to saltlick and I can't say I agree with leaving her story completely. Definitely don't want to abandon her story, I just don't want to view it first person (again for various reasons)
I personally like the episodes. Look what goes on these forums, for example. All the speculation that comes in between episodes and potentially making a precise prediction is part of the enjoyment of the series. Also, with Lee's teachings, it clearly is dependent on YOUR type of Lee. I'm sure that your play style/personality will carry over to the second season, so your season 2 Clementine should not be much different from how you played your Lee. For example, when Lee was giving you advice, did he know every single event that would take place in Clem's future? Absolutely not. Clementine is given, and will be given situations where she has to stretch what Lee taught her, because in the situation, she has to make a choice that will be best for the group and herself, not always fitting what Lee has told her. Therefore, it really varies on what the player thinks is righteous, and whether they want to play against Lee's guidance or for it.
If you ever have kids, you may be shocked to find they get less innocent and pure as they get older. Especially if you drop them in the middle of a war zone or post-apocalyptic situation where survival actively depends on growing up fast.
I also play Clem along the lines of "the only good thing left in the world", taking the virtuous choices whenever possible and refusing to rise to the bait when someone tries to antagonize her, but I find it bizarre how many people expect her to remain the same as her eight year old self forever. She's not meant to be a friggin' Pollyanna, perpetually untouched by the horrors she experiences. If a little girl loses everyone and everything she knows and loves, she isn't going to be the same little girl afterwards as she was when it all started.
Now, let's talk about Clementine as the main, playable character in Season 2, which is really a bad idea. Clementine, throughout season 1, a… morected as an moral compass for Lee Everett. No matter how bad the world turned out to be, Clementine constantly reminded Lee that there is still humanity in a dying world.
This so much. I'll never understand why most players liked doing a complete 360 to Clem's character from S1. It's fine if you prefer a 'badass' Clementine over the innocent one in S1, but I'll always play Clem as how Lee viewed her right to the end :"The only good thing left in the world", which blatantly referred to her humanity and innocence.
I never called Rebecca out on the baby. I never said anything like "Still not bitten" or "Let's take 'em." As long as Telltale gives me the options to play closely as an innocent Clem, I'll do it.
Hell if I'm playing Clem in S2 the way Kirkman would want me to.
With all the shit she's been through, and all the time that has passed, you truly believe that clem would stay the same? Lee, who was essentially her father figure, DIED IN FRONT OF HER. Along with a bunch of her friends. She's seen her peer/child friend die. She's seen Ben die. She's seen a man with his legs cut off and she almost ate them.
Through all of that, and the reality shock of Lee dying in front of her, would change her personality down to it's very core. Add some time and age (along with more bullshit that she's been through), and the idea of a "badass" clem (I hate that term because she's not really badass, just very bluntly honest and capable of some very basic survival skills) is very plausable and even reasonable.
People love to hold on to the young, innocent Clem because that's who they became attached to playing as Lee.
Now, let's talk about Clementine as the main, playable character in Season 2, which is really a bad idea. Clementine, throughout season 1, a… morected as an moral compass for Lee Everett. No matter how bad the world turned out to be, Clementine constantly reminded Lee that there is still humanity in a dying world.
This so much. I'll never understand why most players liked doing a complete 360 to Clem's character from S1. It's fine if you prefer a 'badass' Clementine over the innocent one in S1, but I'll always play Clem as how Lee viewed her right to the end :"The only good thing left in the world", which blatantly referred to her humanity and innocence.
I never called Rebecca out on the baby. I never said anything like "Still not bitten" or "Let's take 'em." As long as Telltale gives me the options to play closely as an innocent Clem, I'll do it.
Hell if I'm playing Clem in S2 the way Kirkman would want me to.
I think you're creating a bit of a reverse self-fulfilling prophecy, saying that she was foreshadowed to be Lee's successor just because she did end up being his successor.
Nothing in game really sets up Clementine to be the new protagonist during season 1. It may have been TT's intention, but if she had been set up in any way that was obvious, then there wouldn't have been all that discussion back before the first episode of season 2 came out, where people were conversing about who the new main character was going to be. The closest thing I can think of that could be construed as "foreshadowing" her role as main character in the next season would be the way in which Lee was directing her in his final scene, where the player's actions are now carried out by Clementine rather than Lee. But that can easily be construed as just Clementine coming of age and having to carry on without Lee as well.
I also disagree with the notion that season 1 was Clementine's story and that she's been the main character of the entire series this whole time. Yes, she's always been very important to us as the player and Lee's character, but the majority of the largest events in the first season's story occurred completely out of her control or involvement, and the idea that she was the main character of the first season is kind of challenged by the very large segments of episodes where she's barely a factor because it's about Lee and the other survivors.
Someone once said, and I agree, that Clementine was barely a character in the first season. Hey, I loved her and wanted to protect her and she was very well-written, but there is very little arc to her character; she barely changes, and again, she barely effects much of anything in the plot until the end. Much of what can be attributed to Clementine's character in the first season is entirely tied to Lee, the actual main character of the first season.
My point behind all of this nonsense is simply that, while I accept and enjoy the current Clementine, as well as agree that her place as the new protagonist is entirely fitting from a narrative standpoint, I don't think criticisms of her as the protagonist are entirely unfounded or can just be dismissed because "this is how it was intended to be". I don't agree with the whining that she's not like her season 1 counterpart, but there are some clear issues that come up with making Clementine far more central to the story in ways that stretch realism to a degree. The fact that characters look like idiots to make Clementine more useful isn't a very good sign, coming off of season 1 where Ben was pretty much the only character made to look like a complete fool. So far, I don't think it's been so egregious that my suspension of disbelief is wearing thin, but it's something for TellTale to think about nevertheless.
100% this. I can't believe people are complaining that Clem is the protagonist of Season Two. It was foreshadowed even back in the first Sea… moreson. She's the main protagonist of the entire Telltale series, not just Season Two. She's the centerfold of everything. And her being a moral compass worked. But it's also a great thing making HER the successor of Lee since you as Lee, trained her to be able to fend for herself. And thus, when she took over as the main character of the series over Lee it was perfectly suited for the story purpose and her general character. Nobody knew Clementine as much as Lee, and if you were to play as someone else who barely knows her that just wouldn't work at all. Only person left who knows Clementine as well as Lee did is herself. She was always intended to be Lee's successor, there's no question in that.
Christ I really hope Telltale ignore these "Criticisms" because if they don't they might decide to make a new… [view original content]
One of the biggest troubles for the developers is time. The only way for Telltale to make a game with more branches/outcomes/meaningful choices is to scrape the episodic formula because nobody likes waiting 1 year for an episode as that will give the player less of an emotional impact than if the player just played through the series in one sitting.
While you can argue that the Walking dead is all about the journey that matters, it is also obviously an obstacle for the developers to overcome. For example, in Season 1, they had to rely on Characters with double sided personalities to have the story make sense. For example, if you give the gun to Irene in Episode 1, then Glenn will criticize the player for letting her give up but on the other hand, if you refused her the gun, Glenn will criticism you for not giving her the gun. There are more examples such as if you save Carley over doug, then the stranger will say "you let a boy get yanked out of the window to protect a pretty girl with a gun" and if you did vice versa, the stranger will tell you that "you let a girl die to protect your secret."
There are also other examples (the stranger with lily) but you get the point. If you played too good of a Lee, then the stranger will lack things to criticism you for and he will sound like a giant hypocrite that was poorly written. Of course, you can argue that the stranger was crazy but I'm sure it's obvious to you that the plot is quite forced. This is all due to time and budget constraints, which severely stunts the chance of telltale making a better game with better content and story lines.
I know this sounds crazy but my whole point, which is inrelevent now as the Episodic format is well onto Season 2, was that Telltale should have taken a different approach to the series. They should have made one full game about the walking dead- the story of Lee but with more content and they shouldn't have made a sequel about Clementine as the story would have ending perfectly. The game will without a doubt, see production for longer but it would have been worth it. The walking dead game doesn't have to be episodic to be the walking dead.
Like I stated beforehand, there are many things wrong with Clem's story post Lee's death such as role playing troubles due to the player's lack of connection with Clementine (read my above post).
Overall, imo it would have been better to end the story after Lee's death.
I personally like the episodes. Look what goes on these forums, for example. All the speculation that comes in between episodes and potentia… morelly making a precise prediction is part of the enjoyment of the series. Also, with Lee's teachings, it clearly is dependent on YOUR type of Lee. I'm sure that your play style/personality will carry over to the second season, so your season 2 Clementine should not be much different from how you played your Lee. For example, when Lee was giving you advice, did he know every single event that would take place in Clem's future? Absolutely not. Clementine is given, and will be given situations where she has to stretch what Lee taught her, because in the situation, she has to make a choice that will be best for the group and herself, not always fitting what Lee has told her. Therefore, it really varies on what the player thinks is righteous, and whether they want to play against Lee's guidance or for it.
So wait, you're telling me that since Clem is the deuteragonist of Season One and the protagonist of Season Two she shouldn't be called the protagonist of this series?
This is going to be a short response as I need to leave in a couple of minutes, but I never said Season One was her story. I said as a whole, when the two stories are put together to form one whole one. It's her story, I think we can both agree with that since she's thus far the only character to appear in every main episode (I'm saying main episode since she didn't appear in 400 Days, that's much more a side-story).
One point I do however heavily disagree with is the foreshadowing point. It was foreshadowed as early as the third episode of Season One. With Chuck telling Lee that if something were to happen to her, he'd have to prepare her for the world in case she would ever be on her own. Even back then, when I played the episode for the first time, I had a feeling what was going to happen in the future. Especially after Chuck's monologue. And mind you, it was even used in a trailer. Which I found simply astounding to me since it was something I would've done if I worked at Telltale too. And on your point over speculation on the new main character of Season Two, over 70% (this is a very rough estimate) or even more people expected it to be Clementine. I even thought it as the natural direction on where the story can go from here.
So in a sense, I consider Season One her origin story on how she becomes a character able to fend for herself. But saying she's not a character just sounds stupid. I know where you're coming from though, she was on the sidelines most of the first Season. But at the same time, it wouldn't make sense for her to have done so much back then. Her role was fine in the first Season and whenever I got to walk in a new hub area I always made sure to talk to Clementine first.
Sorry this a short response FYI, I'd be more than inclined to write a wall of text like yours also but I simply don't have the time.
EDIT: It was actually a pretty long response, felt short as I typed it. :P
I think you're creating a bit of a reverse self-fulfilling prophecy, saying that she was foreshadowed to be Lee's successor just because she… more did end up being his successor.
Nothing in game really sets up Clementine to be the new protagonist during season 1. It may have been TT's intention, but if she had been set up in any way that was obvious, then there wouldn't have been all that discussion back before the first episode of season 2 came out, where people were conversing about who the new main character was going to be. The closest thing I can think of that could be construed as "foreshadowing" her role as main character in the next season would be the way in which Lee was directing her in his final scene, where the player's actions are now carried out by Clementine rather than Lee. But that can easily be construed as just Clementine coming of age and having to carry on without Lee as well.
I also disagree with the notion that season … [view original content]
Actually, about the foreshadowed thing, it most definitely was not. Here's a quote from someone who was on Playing Dead (Harrison Pink, I th… moreink): "If it felt like Clem was going to do what the player wanted her to do, then we did our jobs."
But with Season 2, they're saying that she definitely called out, and if you thought otherwise, you were WRONG.
It is, but to me I just thought it was the natural direction for the story to go following the first Season. That's just what I think though, if we were going to play as a new character who'd they meet and talk to her again I'd feel the story not being as personal anymore. Since we knew her very well as Lee it would feel odd re-introducing yourself as a new character to her. Felt like the only way they could have made the story feel personal was that you took over her role.
I think most people you find complaining about Clem being the protagonist are actually objecting to her being the playable character. So far… more the OP is on a list of 3 people I can remember complaining about actually following Clem's story, but the list objective to her being the pc is much longer.
* Most people who play games of the zombie genre are males. While this game is not the typical zombie game, it still has typical more male p… morelayers than female.
* I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who play this game are young adult males, therefor it's easier for them to relate to a middle aged male than a little girl.
Again, I lost count of the number of times I used Imo so forgive meh if I sounded like that. Just imagine it as my opinion.
Btw the most important choice in the Kenny relationship is killing larry or not. If you help him kill larry, he will almost always go off with you at the end of episode 4 but if you try to save Larry, no matter what you do, he will give you the "will you be there for me" dialogue.
We'll just reach agree to disagree. Seems like you don't understand me.
I agree and disagree. There are pros and cons to having a new character fill the role of playable character. You wouldn't have an intimate connection to her from the first season via a new character but you could form a very close bond to her through recollection of S1 and through s2 events. It would be cool to see her recollection of s1 not due to direct implementation of our prejudices. After all she had a set personality and traits which can be abandoned at a whim if so chosen. My main objection is just that. I can't connect and empathize with her well because she was so well defined and such a perfect character in S1. I know this comes down a lot to the person, but it's extremely hard for me because I can't play her like I played Lee. I take pause and need to consider and reconsider and then consider again what Clem would do in that situation. It's not so much I'm playing a game where my decisions change (slightly) the world and people around me, but more so that I'm reading s book with incorrect choices that do not represent who she was and is and is becoming.
It is, but to me I just thought it was the natural direction for the story to go following the first Season. That's just what I think though… more, if we were going to play as a new character who'd they meet and talk to her again I'd feel the story not being as personal anymore. Since we knew her very well as Lee it would feel odd re-introducing yourself as a new character to her. Felt like the only way they could have made the story feel personal was that you took over her role.
You're not the first person I've heard say this (What would Clem do) I never saw it like that, the fact it's been two years and she's been emotionally hardened since then I even felt it perfectly natural to be able to change her personality to my choosing now. I don't see Clementine as the person she was back 2 years ago. I see her as I want to see her when I took over control as her. Do you know what I say actually? And what I think she would think in her head when she has an irrational decision to make? She would be thinking; "What would Lee do?" and because of that, I found it very easy to take over as her this Season. I know it's preference primarily, but I'm pretty sure that's how Telltale themselves wanted us to see her too. Lee thought her the better and worse values of life, and now Clementine is trying to live on in his legacy. And I do still heavily emphasize with her. I know this is a controversial opinion here, but I'm actually more emotionally invested in her character now more than ever thanks to that.
I agree and disagree. There are pros and cons to having a new character fill the role of playable character. You wouldn't have an intimate c… moreonnection to her from the first season via a new character but you could form a very close bond to her through recollection of S1 and through s2 events. It would be cool to see her recollection of s1 not due to direct implementation of our prejudices. After all she had a set personality and traits which can be abandoned at a whim if so chosen. My main objection is just that. I can't connect and empathize with her well because she was so well defined and such a perfect character in S1. I know this comes down a lot to the person, but it's extremely hard for me because I can't play her like I played Lee. I take pause and need to consider and reconsider and then consider again what Clem would do in that situation. It's not so much I'm playing a game where my decisions change (slightly) the world and people a… [view original content]
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I like both to be honest and I think the sudden turn around was her losing everyone she cared for and the fact she has been in this world for over 2 years now,she has grown in the time we haven't seen her.
I have to admit that I was kinda dick.
You two have opened my eyes.
I'll edit the comment little bit and (almost) never complain about others opinions.
Edit: Here lies a stupid comment, I don't deserve any likes and you can freely dislike this comment if you want.
Epic fail, I created a new comment XDXD Via mobile
Episodic gaming is what they do. You cant fault them for making the game that way. The only alternative is to have a completely different company do it and have completely different results that you might not like so much.
Nah its just that people repeat the same complains over and over. I feel just like you I just don't say I don't wanna get in trouble haha
Ikr ?
Like I mentioned before, this game is not like mass effect, where you have to do what your characters think is right. In the walking dead, you do what YOU think is right and eventually, you get so immersed that you feel you are the character, including the ability to share the characters happiness and guilt, which is the reason why playing as Clementine or introducing her in Season 2 is a bad idea:
Subjective.
Exactly, you role-play. Maybe your Clementine liked Kenny? Maybe she/you now are just happy to see a familiar face? It is now you who are projecting yourself into Clementine, trying to say how she would've acted, and that is fine. Maybe your Clem didn't like Kenny.
So you're telling us that spending 5 months together they won't be friends if I remember correctly he states that if you fed duck and Clem he wants you to com with him when he decides to leaveThat makes sense
You're trying to speak for the majority please don't you're coming off as somebody he thinks they know more than everybody else
Like I said before whether you like it or not ttg twdg is based around clementine she's THE main character season 1 was to prepare her season 2 is to see how your advice affects her and you decide
I think it fits her. She's older for god sakes, that's kind of what happens as you age.
I agree with you disagreeing.
Actually, about the foreshadowed thing, it most definitely was not. Here's a quote from someone who was on Playing Dead (Harrison Pink, I think): "If it felt like Clem was going to do what the player wanted her to do, then we did our jobs."
But with Season 2, they're saying that she definitely called out, and if you thought otherwise, you were WRONG.
4 months at most
Episode 1- 1 day
Episode 2- 3 months gap
Episode 3- A few weeks at most
Episode 4- 1 Day
Episode 5- Probably not even a day
Clem throughout season 1 never interacted with him as much as the other Characters
Also kenny wanted to Lee and clem to come with him based on what Lee did- not Clem as a way of thanking him. Also just because they've been together for quite a while doesn't mean they become friends...ahhem Larry
. However, he is not willing to help Lee in episode 4 find Clementine if you simply didn't side with him once. The only thing my Lee didn't do was kill larry but apart from that I sided with.
Also give me ONE example where Clem and kenny actually agreed with each other.
I'm sure there are much more examples of the two conflicting but at best, Clem probably only feels sorry for Kenny and I'm willing to bet than in the 2 year period where they didn't meet, Kenny was the last thing on her mind.
The point of season 1 was not to prepare Clem for season 2, but to discover who Lee truly is, which is a caring father. When you talk to the stranger at the end of episode 5, you have the option of telling him that Lee hurt is wife and what he truly wanted was a family but his wife didn't agree.
Also, Clem, through season 1 is like a moral compass for Lee. Her presence really changes what choices the player makes. She is there to remind Lee that there is still humanity left in the world. Like what Lee said to ben - Clementine is the only good thing about this world.
Like I said before, this game isn't about role playing, but about connecting with the characters and feel what they feel. You become the father and Clem becomes the daughter. However, season 2 just makes you play Clem, which screws everything up. They should have just dropped Clementine's story after season 1.
This is my opinion and I'm not trying to speak for the majority.
Except role playing isn't a thing in this game. The whole POINT of the game is to project yourself into the post apocalypse world.
What do you define as role play?
If you're not speaking for majority then don't use words like "most " ( ex: For most players, It is harder to relate to a little girl than a 37 year old man trying placing IMO before saying that as you may not realize it but your words make it seem like you're trying to speak for majority)
And I'll repeat this again the game is about CLEMENTINE AND lees path to redemption by taking care of HER about number 2 when somebody gets your family killed are you gonna think if they're someone elses friend and don't try to use the "oh if you didn't side with him once" stuff on my first playthrough I didn't agree with him why because I helped his family when they needed it the ony reason he won't help is if you absolutely didn't help him at all
But you know what forget it I'm not gonna waste my time now good day to you sir
Before I go PLEASE explain man I beg you
Can't say Im surprised. You and me always agree with each other. Most of the time at least.
I'm sorry but then most of you would have dead children so yea really don't agree at all.
Again, I lost count of the number of times I used Imo so forgive meh if I sounded like that. Just imagine it as my opinion.
Btw the most important choice in the Kenny relationship is killing larry or not. If you help him kill larry, he will almost always go off with you at the end of episode 4 but if you try to save Larry, no matter what you do, he will give you the "will you be there for me" dialogue.
We'll just reach agree to disagree. Seems like you don't understand me.
Role playing in games, in my opinion, is doing things what you think your character would do. For example, bio ware games in many cases let you be the good or evil person; some players be good for the sake of being good and vice versa.
A good example of role playing in this game is choosing between Luke and Kenny. You have to choose what Clementine thinks of Kenny not how you think of him because obviously you (the player) know alot more about kenny than Clementine, therefor it's harder to relate to her in that situation.
I don't think role playing should be present in this game because the best thing about this game was that you chose what YOU thought was the best option, not you choosing what your character thinks.
Answer me this. In season 1, did you feel that the game made you feel guilty for some of your decisions and happy in others? Did you feel that you, in some cases ACTUALLY become Lee?
I saw the line "Now, let's talk about Clementine as the main, playable character in Season 2, which is really a bad idea" and decided I didn't care and didn't read this.
Ah, okay, I do see your point. Yes, that is one of the problems of having her as a protagonist; a character more or less defined, versus the almost blank slate that Lee was.
The thing is, while some people are tied to their "continuity", who they think their Clementine is, their role play, as you put it... I feel that I am not. I defend those playsytles and understand why they do as they do, and appreciate TT giving the options to live that.
I have, however, accepted her as who I am now. I do not roleplay the way you put it. I am her, she is I. In how I play her, I feel the teachings of my Lee are more vivid than ever because I was that version of Lee, and that essence lives on through her. And that, contrary to popular belief does not mean I will always choose "Sassy Clem". I can connect with Clementine, what she has seen and who she is. I am double her age and of the opposite gender and yet I can connect with her fine. I guess I am of the lucky ones that feel the way Telltale intended.
To me, role play encompasses everything that makes your character be who you want them to be, based on the morals you impose them based on whatever you wish or your very own.
Eloquent response, GOUSTTTT,
/thread. :P
I just read "I saw the line" and I stopped reading right there because I guessed what the content was going to be.
The only thing I truly agree with is the episodes. I think they should have completed them all fully, then they could have released them monthly or every two weeks for suspense, rather than because they hadnt actually completed them.
Did you mean to respond to your own comment like that? Or just thinking out loud?
I personally like the episodes. Look what goes on these forums, for example. All the speculation that comes in between episodes and potentially making a precise prediction is part of the enjoyment of the series. Also, with Lee's teachings, it clearly is dependent on YOUR type of Lee. I'm sure that your play style/personality will carry over to the second season, so your season 2 Clementine should not be much different from how you played your Lee. For example, when Lee was giving you advice, did he know every single event that would take place in Clem's future? Absolutely not. Clementine is given, and will be given situations where she has to stretch what Lee taught her, because in the situation, she has to make a choice that will be best for the group and herself, not always fitting what Lee has told her. Therefore, it really varies on what the player thinks is righteous, and whether they want to play against Lee's guidance or for it.
If you ever have kids, you may be shocked to find they get less innocent and pure as they get older. Especially if you drop them in the middle of a war zone or post-apocalyptic situation where survival actively depends on growing up fast.
I also play Clem along the lines of "the only good thing left in the world", taking the virtuous choices whenever possible and refusing to rise to the bait when someone tries to antagonize her, but I find it bizarre how many people expect her to remain the same as her eight year old self forever. She's not meant to be a friggin' Pollyanna, perpetually untouched by the horrors she experiences. If a little girl loses everyone and everything she knows and loves, she isn't going to be the same little girl afterwards as she was when it all started.
With all the shit she's been through, and all the time that has passed, you truly believe that clem would stay the same? Lee, who was essentially her father figure, DIED IN FRONT OF HER. Along with a bunch of her friends. She's seen her peer/child friend die. She's seen Ben die. She's seen a man with his legs cut off and she almost ate them.
Through all of that, and the reality shock of Lee dying in front of her, would change her personality down to it's very core. Add some time and age (along with more bullshit that she's been through), and the idea of a "badass" clem (I hate that term because she's not really badass, just very bluntly honest and capable of some very basic survival skills) is very plausable and even reasonable.
People love to hold on to the young, innocent Clem because that's who they became attached to playing as Lee.
I think you're creating a bit of a reverse self-fulfilling prophecy, saying that she was foreshadowed to be Lee's successor just because she did end up being his successor.
Nothing in game really sets up Clementine to be the new protagonist during season 1. It may have been TT's intention, but if she had been set up in any way that was obvious, then there wouldn't have been all that discussion back before the first episode of season 2 came out, where people were conversing about who the new main character was going to be. The closest thing I can think of that could be construed as "foreshadowing" her role as main character in the next season would be the way in which Lee was directing her in his final scene, where the player's actions are now carried out by Clementine rather than Lee. But that can easily be construed as just Clementine coming of age and having to carry on without Lee as well.
I also disagree with the notion that season 1 was Clementine's story and that she's been the main character of the entire series this whole time. Yes, she's always been very important to us as the player and Lee's character, but the majority of the largest events in the first season's story occurred completely out of her control or involvement, and the idea that she was the main character of the first season is kind of challenged by the very large segments of episodes where she's barely a factor because it's about Lee and the other survivors.
Someone once said, and I agree, that Clementine was barely a character in the first season. Hey, I loved her and wanted to protect her and she was very well-written, but there is very little arc to her character; she barely changes, and again, she barely effects much of anything in the plot until the end. Much of what can be attributed to Clementine's character in the first season is entirely tied to Lee, the actual main character of the first season.
My point behind all of this nonsense is simply that, while I accept and enjoy the current Clementine, as well as agree that her place as the new protagonist is entirely fitting from a narrative standpoint, I don't think criticisms of her as the protagonist are entirely unfounded or can just be dismissed because "this is how it was intended to be". I don't agree with the whining that she's not like her season 1 counterpart, but there are some clear issues that come up with making Clementine far more central to the story in ways that stretch realism to a degree. The fact that characters look like idiots to make Clementine more useful isn't a very good sign, coming off of season 1 where Ben was pretty much the only character made to look like a complete fool. So far, I don't think it's been so egregious that my suspension of disbelief is wearing thin, but it's something for TellTale to think about nevertheless.
One of the biggest troubles for the developers is time. The only way for Telltale to make a game with more branches/outcomes/meaningful choices is to scrape the episodic formula because nobody likes waiting 1 year for an episode as that will give the player less of an emotional impact than if the player just played through the series in one sitting.
While you can argue that the Walking dead is all about the journey that matters, it is also obviously an obstacle for the developers to overcome. For example, in Season 1, they had to rely on Characters with double sided personalities to have the story make sense. For example, if you give the gun to Irene in Episode 1, then Glenn will criticize the player for letting her give up but on the other hand, if you refused her the gun, Glenn will criticism you for not giving her the gun. There are more examples such as if you save Carley over doug, then the stranger will say "you let a boy get yanked out of the window to protect a pretty girl with a gun" and if you did vice versa, the stranger will tell you that "you let a girl die to protect your secret."
There are also other examples (the stranger with lily) but you get the point. If you played too good of a Lee, then the stranger will lack things to criticism you for and he will sound like a giant hypocrite that was poorly written. Of course, you can argue that the stranger was crazy but I'm sure it's obvious to you that the plot is quite forced. This is all due to time and budget constraints, which severely stunts the chance of telltale making a better game with better content and story lines.
I know this sounds crazy but my whole point, which is inrelevent now as the Episodic format is well onto Season 2, was that Telltale should have taken a different approach to the series. They should have made one full game about the walking dead- the story of Lee but with more content and they shouldn't have made a sequel about Clementine as the story would have ending perfectly. The game will without a doubt, see production for longer but it would have been worth it. The walking dead game doesn't have to be episodic to be the walking dead.
Like I stated beforehand, there are many things wrong with Clem's story post Lee's death such as role playing troubles due to the player's lack of connection with Clementine (read my above post).
Overall, imo it would have been better to end the story after Lee's death.
So wait, you're telling me that since Clem is the deuteragonist of Season One and the protagonist of Season Two she shouldn't be called the protagonist of this series?
This is going to be a short response as I need to leave in a couple of minutes, but I never said Season One was her story. I said as a whole, when the two stories are put together to form one whole one. It's her story, I think we can both agree with that since she's thus far the only character to appear in every main episode (I'm saying main episode since she didn't appear in 400 Days, that's much more a side-story).
One point I do however heavily disagree with is the foreshadowing point. It was foreshadowed as early as the third episode of Season One. With Chuck telling Lee that if something were to happen to her, he'd have to prepare her for the world in case she would ever be on her own. Even back then, when I played the episode for the first time, I had a feeling what was going to happen in the future. Especially after Chuck's monologue. And mind you, it was even used in a trailer. Which I found simply astounding to me since it was something I would've done if I worked at Telltale too. And on your point over speculation on the new main character of Season Two, over 70% (this is a very rough estimate) or even more people expected it to be Clementine. I even thought it as the natural direction on where the story can go from here.
So in a sense, I consider Season One her origin story on how she becomes a character able to fend for herself. But saying she's not a character just sounds stupid. I know where you're coming from though, she was on the sidelines most of the first Season. But at the same time, it wouldn't make sense for her to have done so much back then. Her role was fine in the first Season and whenever I got to walk in a new hub area I always made sure to talk to Clementine first.
Sorry this a short response FYI, I'd be more than inclined to write a wall of text like yours also but I simply don't have the time.
EDIT: It was actually a pretty long response, felt short as I typed it. :P
It was Harrison Pink who said that, but I don't really understand what you mean by me being wrong...?
Haha yeah I did. I didn't feel like editing my first post.
It is, but to me I just thought it was the natural direction for the story to go following the first Season. That's just what I think though, if we were going to play as a new character who'd they meet and talk to her again I'd feel the story not being as personal anymore. Since we knew her very well as Lee it would feel odd re-introducing yourself as a new character to her. Felt like the only way they could have made the story feel personal was that you took over her role.
Don't assume I don't understand you I do I just disagree
I agree and disagree. There are pros and cons to having a new character fill the role of playable character. You wouldn't have an intimate connection to her from the first season via a new character but you could form a very close bond to her through recollection of S1 and through s2 events. It would be cool to see her recollection of s1 not due to direct implementation of our prejudices. After all she had a set personality and traits which can be abandoned at a whim if so chosen. My main objection is just that. I can't connect and empathize with her well because she was so well defined and such a perfect character in S1. I know this comes down a lot to the person, but it's extremely hard for me because I can't play her like I played Lee. I take pause and need to consider and reconsider and then consider again what Clem would do in that situation. It's not so much I'm playing a game where my decisions change (slightly) the world and people around me, but more so that I'm reading s book with incorrect choices that do not represent who she was and is and is becoming.
I don't like badass Clem either, I hate her when she's all sassy and disrespectful.
You're not the first person I've heard say this (What would Clem do) I never saw it like that, the fact it's been two years and she's been emotionally hardened since then I even felt it perfectly natural to be able to change her personality to my choosing now. I don't see Clementine as the person she was back 2 years ago. I see her as I want to see her when I took over control as her. Do you know what I say actually? And what I think she would think in her head when she has an irrational decision to make? She would be thinking; "What would Lee do?" and because of that, I found it very easy to take over as her this Season. I know it's preference primarily, but I'm pretty sure that's how Telltale themselves wanted us to see her too. Lee thought her the better and worse values of life, and now Clementine is trying to live on in his legacy. And I do still heavily emphasize with her. I know this is a controversial opinion here, but I'm actually more emotionally invested in her character now more than ever thanks to that.