Telltale screwed Lilly over. I didn't have trouble sympathizing with her and sided with her most of the time, but she wasn't given enough sy… morempathetic moments. It made the game unbalanced--same thing with Doug and Carley, we were naturally biased to Carley because of her gun. We're naturally biased to Kenny because he was really friendly when we first met him, whereas Lilly was belligerent, and Kenny's got funny quips and a family and Lilly's got an asshole dad and not too many funny lines.
I like Lilly and sided with her a lot but it felt like Telltale wanted players to hate her. I guess I subconsciously fought against that.
That is what I was referring to from your comment. I do not think it is a legit option, hence my comment.
Is she definitely still dangerous? People here are saying they would kill her as soon as they saw her. 16 months can change a hell of a lot, and I think she will have overcome her feelings of grief and her PTSD by then.
I don't agree that, 16 months later, we can't trust her anymore.
If you take Lilly with you, she doesn't hurt anyone. She flees the group because she feels like they all hate her, which they pretty much do. She could easily have gone out and killed them all. But she didn't. Which shows the carley shooting may have been just a burst of anger, and not a consistent part of her character.
I'm not saying you have to be nice to her, I'm saying you shouldn't automatically slaughter her.
Also consider this: Lee killed a guy because he was pissed off. Did you trust him? Or do you think Carley should have shot him as soon as she realised who he was?
" You think killing someone because of revenge because they killed someone out of anger is a legit option? "
That's not what i said, i sa… moreid i voted for leaving her behind. And yes, i think killing her is an legit option, to make sure that Lilly never hurts anyone again. She obviously lost it and we can't trust her anymore. It's not about revenge, it's about peoples safety.
" Sometimes I do worry about people. Like I can see why Clem should not trust her, or even punish her in some other way, but a murder for a murder just does not seem like being the better person, which is what, as a rule, it is best to strive for. "
People don't want to kill Lilly because she killed Carley, they want to kill her because she is dangerous and they wanna make sure that she never hurts anyone ever again. I wouldn't kill Lilly, i just understand why some people might want to do that. It makes alot more sense than just beeing friendly to her and talk to her, after all the horrible things that have happened.
It's fair to be vindictive towards someone who shot someone in the face out of anger. I don't honestly know why you would even question that. Lilly's constant vindictiveness had almost no justification. No irony here, we're not even really talking about the same thing.
What "great" qualities did Lilly have? I seriously can't think of any.
You're right, it is deliciously ironic indeed that Kenny fans dislike that Lilly is vindictive and are actually vindictive about her in resp… moreonse.
And I think that she could justifiably be punished (although it happened 16 months ago), I just don't think it can be justifiable to kill her in return.
Plus, I support her as much as I support Kenny. I think they are more similar people than most pewople care to think about.
Personalyl I can't wait until they are both dead for certain, just so this pointless encircling discussion between fans of each can stop.
They both have great qualities, they both have awful qualities, let's just leave it at that.
So, you think Carley should have shot Lee in the face because he murdered guy out of anger?
Once you have answered that question, okay, these are the things that are in my opinion (you might want to learn that phrase, as you have often stated your opinion as fact) good qualities.
Like Kenny, she is loyal if you side with her: she saves your life, and says you are the only one she trusts. She runs away, because she's scared that everyone else hates her, but she apologises to Lee before doing so. Also, she had to leave for her to fit in the comics, so we can't put too much weight on that.
She is helpful with Clem, giving her hairbands to help her sleep without hair getting messed up, which Clem still wears to this day.
She holds the group together very well before Kenny starts to challenge her.
She cares a hell of a lot about her last surviving family, just like Kenny.
She saves the ENTIRE GROUP from the save lot bandits, even though Kenny killed her father. Kenny then proceeds to try to drive off without her.
Despite having very recently had her father brutally slaughtered before her eyes, she can still help you take down the st johns, which is very impressive.
She serves as the voice of reason between Kenny and Larry in their argument, along with Lee.
EDIT: Actually, don't bother replying to this, as I am going to bed, and we'll never convince each other either way. Just do me a favour and compare Lilly's murder and Lee's murder, and we'll be done.
I must say, it was a pleasure to debate with someone who cares as passionately about the characters as I do, and especially one who can give far better arguments than most Kenny fans I've seen on this forum. See you around dude, take care, and let's not bother arguing about this again
It's fair to be vindictive towards someone who shot someone in the face out of anger. I don't honestly know why you would even question that… more. Lilly's constant vindictiveness had almost no justification. No irony here, we're not even really talking about the same thing.
What "great" qualities did Lilly have? I seriously can't think of any.
Telltale screwed Lilly over. I didn't have trouble sympathizing with her and sided with her most of the time, but she wasn't given enough sy… morempathetic moments. It made the game unbalanced--same thing with Doug and Carley, we were naturally biased to Carley because of her gun. We're naturally biased to Kenny because he was really friendly when we first met him, whereas Lilly was belligerent, and Kenny's got funny quips and a family and Lilly's got an asshole dad and not too many funny lines.
I like Lilly and sided with her a lot but it felt like Telltale wanted players to hate her. I guess I subconsciously fought against that.
" Is she definitely still dangerous? People here are saying they would kill her as soon as they saw her. 16 months can change a hell of a lot, and I think she will have overcome her feelings of grief and her PTSD by then. "
Yes, Lilly might have changed over the last 16months. But that's very unlikely after the way her character was developing and her story was ending.
" If you take Lilly with you, she doesn't hurt anyone. She flees the group because she feels like they all hate her, which they pretty much do. She could easily have gone out and killed them all. But she didn't. Which shows the carley shooting may have been just a burst of anger, and not a consistent part of her character. "
Lilly drove away with the RV, leaving the whole group behind to die. I don't know what you are trying to say here! Of course they all hated her at this point, she just shot a person of their group for no reason at all, some minutes ago. And no, Lilly couldn't have just gone out and kill them all, she didn't have a weapon.
" I'm not saying you have to be nice to her, I'm saying you shouldn't automatically slaughter her. "
I never said that i would automatically slaughter her, but it makes alot more sense then to be automatically friendly to her.
" Also consider this: Lee killed a guy because he was pissed off. Did you trust him? Or do you think Carley should have shot him as soon as she realised who he was? "
The simple difference here is, we were playing as Lee. So i knew that Lee wouldn't be dangerous. Larry didn't trust Lee because of that reason and i don't hold it against him. He was just trying to protect his family. (Lilly)
'I also think killing her is a legit option'
That is what I was referring to from your comment. I do not think it is a legit option, henc… moree my comment.
Is she definitely still dangerous? People here are saying they would kill her as soon as they saw her. 16 months can change a hell of a lot, and I think she will have overcome her feelings of grief and her PTSD by then.
I don't agree that, 16 months later, we can't trust her anymore.
If you take Lilly with you, she doesn't hurt anyone. She flees the group because she feels like they all hate her, which they pretty much do. She could easily have gone out and killed them all. But she didn't. Which shows the carley shooting may have been just a burst of anger, and not a consistent part of her character.
I'm not saying you have to be nice to her, I'm saying you shouldn't automatically slaughter her.
Also consider this: Lee killed a guy because he was pissed off. Did you trust him? Or do you think Carley should have shot him as soon as she realised who he was?
As a note, Kenny's efforts were also misguided, albeit less so.
However, saying she killed someone 'because she was pissed off' is oversi… moremplifying. I think most of us would have extreme emotional issues if your only surviving family had their head crushed by someone who hates you.
Also, stating Lilly does not have redeeming qualities is completely objective and thus not a convincing argument/. Personally I could list about the same number for Lilly and Kenny, which is why i like the characters the same amount.
EDIT: Note as below: Lilly was supposed to get her redemption in the comics, in which she's pretty cool.
I think they may save her for season 3. I hope they don't abandon her character completely, as she is a very interesting character.
Considering Kenny already got a good arc, I'm starting to think that Telltale only brought back Kenny as fanservice, which isn't the best way of writing unfortunately.
Yeah, but Kirkman decided to nope out of the "Game Lilly is Comic Lilly" arrangement
If Lilly does somehow appear in Season 2, I hope she would get closure and redemption, though.
'her story was ending' - the same can easily be said about Kenny's sacrifice in episode 5.
If you side with her, she apologises for leaving. I also said that it was pointless to focus on that, as she had to leave for comic reasons.
'I never said that we should automatically slaughter her' - no, but many people have, and earlier you seemed to be defending that. Perhaps I am mistaken.
'We are playing as lee' so, in your eyes, it would have been absolutely fine if Carley shot you because you understand that you may seem to be a risk? No, it wouldn't, and Lilly must feel the same as the situations are so alike. She probably doesn't want people to judge her for what she did, and yet so many people here are automatically.
Say for a moment that we played as Clem, not Lee. Imagine that you learned that this man murdered someone else for no good reason, just like Lilly. Would you direct Clem to kill Lee in revenge, given the choice? Or do you think that we shouldn't actually judge lee for what he did in the past, and that it's the present that matters?
" Is she definitely still dangerous? People here are saying they would kill her as soon as they saw her. 16 months can change a hell of a lo… moret, and I think she will have overcome her feelings of grief and her PTSD by then. "
Yes, Lilly might have changed over the last 16months. But that's very unlikely after the way her character was developing and her story was ending.
" If you take Lilly with you, she doesn't hurt anyone. She flees the group because she feels like they all hate her, which they pretty much do. She could easily have gone out and killed them all. But she didn't. Which shows the carley shooting may have been just a burst of anger, and not a consistent part of her character. "
Lilly drove away with the RV, leaving the whole group behind to die. I don't know what you are trying to say here! Of course they all hated her at this point, she just shot a person of their group for no reason at all, some minutes ago. And no, Lil… [view original content]
Being pissed off was the triggering event though. Obviously she was grieving for her father, but that doesn't justify her actions what so ev… moreer.
And no, Lilly seriously does not have any decent redeeming qualities. Certainly nothing that comes close to equaling out her terrible ones.
" 'her story was ending' - the same can easily be said about Kenny's sacrifice in episode 5. "
Yes, the same can be said. The difference is Kenny risked his own life to protect another person, while Lilly was killing an innocent person and left her whole group behind to die. (If you choose to take her with you)
" If you side with her, she apologises for leaving. I also said that it was pointless to focus on that, as she had to leave for comic reasons. "
She apologices for leaving everyone else behind to die? How satisfiyng that must have been...
" 'We are playing as lee' so, in your eyes, it would have been absolutely fine if Carley shot you because you understand that you may seem to be a risk? No, it wouldn't, and Lilly must feel the same as the situations are so alike. She probably doesn't want people to judge her for what she did, and yet so many people here are automatically. "
You can't compare this two situations. Carley didn't know Lee and she didn't know what really happened when he was killing the Senator. Lilly on the other hand, murdered a innocent person infront of everyone's eyes and she didn't even apologice for that.
" Say for a moment that we played as Clem, not Lee. Imagine that you learned that this man murdered someone else for no good reason, just like Lilly. Would you direct Clem to kill Lee in revenge, given the choice? Or do you think that we shouldn't actually judge lee for what he did in the past, and that it's the present that matters? "
Kill Lee in revenge for what? Clem is a 9year old girl and Lee didn't kill anyone she knew. Of course it's the presents that matters, that's the whole point. Lee has changed and was a very good caretaker for Clem.
'her story was ending' - the same can easily be said about Kenny's sacrifice in episode 5.
If you side with her, she apologises for leavi… moreng. I also said that it was pointless to focus on that, as she had to leave for comic reasons.
'I never said that we should automatically slaughter her' - no, but many people have, and earlier you seemed to be defending that. Perhaps I am mistaken.
'We are playing as lee' so, in your eyes, it would have been absolutely fine if Carley shot you because you understand that you may seem to be a risk? No, it wouldn't, and Lilly must feel the same as the situations are so alike. She probably doesn't want people to judge her for what she did, and yet so many people here are automatically.
Say for a moment that we played as Clem, not Lee. Imagine that you learned that this man murdered someone else for no good reason, just like Lilly. Would you direct Clem to kill Lee in revenge, given the choice? Or do … [view original content]
The manner in which kenny risked his life is irrelevant here: I was commenting that you shouldn't say 'she can't return, her story is over' if you accept the return of Kenny.
Anyway, as much as I would like to read the rest of that, it's getting late here, and to be honest I don't think either of us is gonna change our mind, so I suggest not bothering to argue about it anymore.
" 'her story was ending' - the same can easily be said about Kenny's sacrifice in episode 5. "
Yes, the same can be said. The difference … moreis Kenny risked his own life to protect another person, while Lilly was killing an innocent person and left her whole group behind to die. (If you choose to take her with you)
" If you side with her, she apologises for leaving. I also said that it was pointless to focus on that, as she had to leave for comic reasons. "
She apologices for leaving everyone else behind to die? How satisfiyng that must have been...
" 'We are playing as lee' so, in your eyes, it would have been absolutely fine if Carley shot you because you understand that you may seem to be a risk? No, it wouldn't, and Lilly must feel the same as the situations are so alike. She probably doesn't want people to judge her for what she did, and yet so many people here are automatically. "
You can't compare this two situations. Carley… [view original content]
" The manner in which kenny risked his life is irrelevant here: I was commenting that you shouldn't say 'she can't return, her story is over' if you accept the return of Kenny. "
I never said that Lilly can't return, it just seems very unlikely to me. Things would get to pretictable and unlogical, if Telltale would just include every Season1 character that's still alive in Season2.
" Anyway, as much as I would like to read the rest of that, it's getting late here, and to be honest I don't think either of us is gonna change our mind, so I suggest not bothering to argue about it anymore. "
The manner in which kenny risked his life is irrelevant here: I was commenting that you shouldn't say 'she can't return, her story is over' … moreif you accept the return of Kenny.
Anyway, as much as I would like to read the rest of that, it's getting late here, and to be honest I don't think either of us is gonna change our mind, so I suggest not bothering to argue about it anymore.
No, I do not think that Carly should have shot Lee because of him murdering someone in the past. A lot of that has to do with her not knowing enough about him to make a decision like that. Regardless of what he did in the past, he was a good person. Carly herself says pretty much the exact same thing.
I don't care if Lilly is more sympathetic to you if you side with her. She is still a complete tyrant to everyone else, and that is not okay. Most people can't bring themselves to side with someone like that anyway.
It doesn't matter if she had to leave in order for her to fit in with the comics, she still did what she did and that is all we have to judge her on.
I forgot she gave Clem hairbands. I suppose that almost makes up for her wanting to throw Clem to the wolves when she first arrived at the Drugstore.
Lilly was arguing with the entire group even before Kenny started challenging her on a regular basis. The first time we see Lilly, she is in an argument with Carly and Glenn. There is no evidence that she individually did a good job holding the group together.
She didn't save the entire group from the bandits. Heck, I was "hashing" out some terms with them when she just randomly decided to shoot one of them in the head. Regardless of what you do, Lee is the one who is stalling them. It was a group effort.
Overall, I suppose I am exaggerating when I say that she has no redeeming qualities. She does have a few, but they are massively out weighed by her being a terrible person.
So, you think Carley should have shot Lee in the face because he murdered guy out of anger?
Once you have answered that question, okay, t… morehese are the things that are in my opinion (you might want to learn that phrase, as you have often stated your opinion as fact) good qualities.
Like Kenny, she is loyal if you side with her: she saves your life, and says you are the only one she trusts. She runs away, because she's scared that everyone else hates her, but she apologises to Lee before doing so. Also, she had to leave for her to fit in the comics, so we can't put too much weight on that.
She is helpful with Clem, giving her hairbands to help her sleep without hair getting messed up, which Clem still wears to this day.
She holds the group together very well before Kenny starts to challenge her.
She cares a hell of a lot about her last surviving family, just like Kenny.
She saves the ENTIRE GROUP from the save lot bandits, even… [view original content]
I am not responding to your points as you have ignored my request to let the argument die.
One last thing to mention: I have asked you before, and I shall again, please stop saying things like 'she is a terrible person'. Just...please add in an 'in my opinion', because otherwise it makes you sound like you're trying to force your views on everyone.
Just please accept that there are others who disagree, and yours is not the only valid option. It may be in your opinion, but is not in reality.
You don't have to act so, in my opinion, unbearably rude in the way you argue.
And I shall repeat, because now I actually won't reply: good night.
No, I do not think that Carly should have shot Lee because of him murdering someone in the past. A lot of that has to do with her not knowin… moreg enough about him to make a decision like that. Regardless of what he did in the past, he was a good person. Carly herself says pretty much the exact same thing.
I don't care if Lilly is more sympathetic to you if you side with her. She is still a complete tyrant to everyone else, and that is not okay. Most people can't bring themselves to side with someone like that anyway.
It doesn't matter if she had to leave in order for her to fit in with the comics, she still did what she did and that is all we have to judge her on.
I forgot she gave Clem hairbands. I suppose that almost makes up for her wanting to throw Clem to the wolves when she first arrived at the Drugstore.
Lilly was arguing with the entire group even before Kenny started challenging her on a regular basis. The first time we see L… [view original content]
Yes, because you totally write "in my opinion" before/after everything you say. Except not really at all. Obviously what I'm saying is my opinion, I don't need to state that before/after everything I say. That would be ridiculous.
I accept that there are others who disagree with me. What I try to do is convince those people to see things differently. That is entirely the point of debating with someone.
I am not responding to your points as you have ignored my request to let the argument die.
One last thing to mention: I have asked you be… morefore, and I shall again, please stop saying things like 'she is a terrible person'. Just...please add in an 'in my opinion', because otherwise it makes you sound like you're trying to force your views on everyone.
Just please accept that there are others who disagree, and yours is not the only valid option. It may be in your opinion, but is not in reality.
You don't have to act so, in my opinion, unbearably rude in the way you argue.
And I shall repeat, because now I actually won't reply: good night.
Yes. Most people say 'I think' or 'in my opition' before they state their opinions.
Like, if I were to say 'Israel is a country founded by scurrilous morals', that would be far more agressive than saying 'in my opinion, Israel is a country founded by scurrilous morals'.
What, do you want me to write "IN MY OPINION" before everything I say? Seriously, get over it.
Also, I had not seen your list at the time that I made that post, otherwise I would have addressed what you said.
Well in my opinion, that is completely absurd and not realistic to how people actually speak.
Also, in basic level debate/persuasive speech classes you are taught to be assertive of your opinion. It is actually frowned on to say the words "in my opinion".
Yes. Most people say 'I think' or 'in my opition' before they state their opinions.
Like, if I were to say 'Israel is a country founded b… morey scurrilous morals', that would be far more agressive than saying 'in my opinion, Israel is a country founded by scurrilous morals'.
It's been two years. Holding onto something that has happened that long ago isn't smart.
We have no idea how much she has gone to regret what she did.
Look at it this way: Kenny would not have hesitated to kill Ben, even though he meant none of it on purpose. If Kenny had killed Ben at Crawford, would you hate him? Why or why not?
Most people choose " Be friendly and talk to her ". Jesus are you fucking kidding me?
Lilly shot Carley out of sorrow and crazyness, ther… moree was no reason at all to keep her in the group. She was obviously dangerous. And even though she didn't want to kill Doug, that doesn't make it any less horrible. I did choose to leave that bitch behind. (And i think killing her is also an legit option, to make sure that she doesn't hurt the group ever again.)
By the way, I never saw the edit on your other post. I probably would have concluded what I was trying to say instead of dragging the debate on if I would have seen that. My bad. I also apologize if my pure hatred of Lilly was accidentally spilling over to my words a little
I am not responding to your points as you have ignored my request to let the argument die.
One last thing to mention: I have asked you be… morefore, and I shall again, please stop saying things like 'she is a terrible person'. Just...please add in an 'in my opinion', because otherwise it makes you sound like you're trying to force your views on everyone.
Just please accept that there are others who disagree, and yours is not the only valid option. It may be in your opinion, but is not in reality.
You don't have to act so, in my opinion, unbearably rude in the way you argue.
And I shall repeat, because now I actually won't reply: good night.
No i wouln't hate him. Ben was responsilbe for the death of Kenny's family and many other innocent persons. It was just logical that Kenny wanted to kill him for that. (But he didn't do that)
And if you decide to let the fucking shitbird survive, Kenny will try to save his life and risk his own life, just to save that fucking shitbird Ben.
She was obviously dangerous
Keyword, "was".
It's been two years. Holding onto something that has happened that long ago isn't sm… moreart.
We have no idea how much she has gone to regret what she did.
Look at it this way: Kenny would not have hesitated to kill Ben, even though he meant none of it on purpose. If Kenny had killed Ben at Crawford, would you hate him? Why or why not?
No i wouln't hate him. Ben was responsilbe for the death of Kenny's family and many other innocent persons. It was just logical that Kenny wanted to kill him for that.
If it's logical for Kenny to kill someone when it was an accident, then using that logic, I would say that Lilly was logical to shoot Carly because she made her mad. I could also say that she is logical to shoot Kenny for killing her dad.
No, Ben was not responsible for any of that. He was responsible for the bandit attack, and it was the bandit's fault for attracting the walkers. It was a domino effect that started when our group destroyed the St. John Dairy. Had the dairy still been in business, the bandit's wouldn't have intimidated Ben into making a deal, causing Lee and Lilly to investigate, which led to the bandit attack, which led to the walker attack, which led to Duck being bitten, which led to Katjaa's suicide. Ben was only an indirect factor: the blame cannot be put directly on him, he is only the easiest to blame.
No i wouln't hate him. Ben was responsilbe for the death of Kenny's family and many other innocent persons. It was just logical that Kenny w… moreanted to kill him for that. (But he didn't do that)
And if you decide to let the fucking shitbird survive, Kenny will try to save his life and risk his own life, just to save that fucking shitbird Ben.
" If it's logical for Kenny to kill someone when it was an accident, then using that logic, I would say that Lilly was logical to shoot Carly because she made her mad. I could also say that she is logical to shoot Kenny for killing her dad. "
There is a difference between beeing responsible for many peoples deaths and killing a man that was probaply already dead to secure the saftey of your group. (I won't even respond to Lilyl killign Carley)
" No, Ben was not responsible for any of that. He was responsible for the bandit attack, and it was the bandit's fault for attracting the walkers. It was a domino effect that started when our group destroyed the St. John Dairy. Had the dairy still been in business, the bandit's wouldn't have intimidated Ben into making a deal, causing Lee and Lilly to investigate, which led to the bandit attack, which led to the walker attack, which led to Duck being bitten, which led to Katjaa's suicide. Ben was only an indirect factor: the blame cannot be put directly on him, he is only the easiest to blame. "
The blame can directly be put on him, because his stupid decisions are in fact the only reason why all of this ever happened.
But as i already mentioned before, Kenny didn't kill Ben. He could have done that, if he wanted to.
No i wouln't hate him. Ben was responsilbe for the death of Kenny's family and many other innocent persons. It was just logical that Kenny … morewanted to kill him for that.
If it's logical for Kenny to kill someone when it was an accident, then using that logic, I would say that Lilly was logical to shoot Carly because she made her mad. I could also say that she is logical to shoot Kenny for killing her dad.
No, Ben was not responsible for any of that. He was responsible for the bandit attack, and it was the bandit's fault for attracting the walkers. It was a domino effect that started when our group destroyed the St. John Dairy. Had the dairy still been in business, the bandit's wouldn't have intimidated Ben into making a deal, causing Lee and Lilly to investigate, which led to the bandit attack, which led to the walker attack, which led to Duck being bitten, which led to Katjaa's suicide. Ben was only an indirect factor: the blame cannot be put directly on him, he is only the easiest to blame.
Totally agree, there's got to be a place for Lilly somewhere in the story line, if Kenny was able to survive a horde surrounding him on all sides then she's GOT to make an appearance.....the gun shot, I do like to think Kenny popped Ben before they could get at him though.
I think they may save her for season 3. I hope they don't abandon her character completely, as she is a very interesting character.
Consi… moredering Kenny already got a good arc, I'm starting to think that Telltale only brought back Kenny as fanservice, which isn't the best way of writing unfortunately.
Comments
They really did screw her over, and screw her fans over.
Kenny fans got a moment in episode 5 where Kenny got redemption. Lilly was supposed to get this in the comics, but did not.
This is why I believe Lilly should have returned instead of Kenny.
'I also think killing her is a legit option'
That is what I was referring to from your comment. I do not think it is a legit option, hence my comment.
Is she definitely still dangerous? People here are saying they would kill her as soon as they saw her. 16 months can change a hell of a lot, and I think she will have overcome her feelings of grief and her PTSD by then.
I don't agree that, 16 months later, we can't trust her anymore.
If you take Lilly with you, she doesn't hurt anyone. She flees the group because she feels like they all hate her, which they pretty much do. She could easily have gone out and killed them all. But she didn't. Which shows the carley shooting may have been just a burst of anger, and not a consistent part of her character.
I'm not saying you have to be nice to her, I'm saying you shouldn't automatically slaughter her.
Also consider this: Lee killed a guy because he was pissed off. Did you trust him? Or do you think Carley should have shot him as soon as she realised who he was?
It's fair to be vindictive towards someone who shot someone in the face out of anger. I don't honestly know why you would even question that. Lilly's constant vindictiveness had almost no justification. No irony here, we're not even really talking about the same thing.
What "great" qualities did Lilly have? I seriously can't think of any.
So, you think Carley should have shot Lee in the face because he murdered guy out of anger?
Once you have answered that question, okay, these are the things that are in my opinion (you might want to learn that phrase, as you have often stated your opinion as fact) good qualities.
Like Kenny, she is loyal if you side with her: she saves your life, and says you are the only one she trusts. She runs away, because she's scared that everyone else hates her, but she apologises to Lee before doing so. Also, she had to leave for her to fit in the comics, so we can't put too much weight on that.
She is helpful with Clem, giving her hairbands to help her sleep without hair getting messed up, which Clem still wears to this day.
She holds the group together very well before Kenny starts to challenge her.
She cares a hell of a lot about her last surviving family, just like Kenny.
She saves the ENTIRE GROUP from the save lot bandits, even though Kenny killed her father. Kenny then proceeds to try to drive off without her.
Despite having very recently had her father brutally slaughtered before her eyes, she can still help you take down the st johns, which is very impressive.
She serves as the voice of reason between Kenny and Larry in their argument, along with Lee.
EDIT: Actually, don't bother replying to this, as I am going to bed, and we'll never convince each other either way. Just do me a favour and compare Lilly's murder and Lee's murder, and we'll be done.
I must say, it was a pleasure to debate with someone who cares as passionately about the characters as I do, and especially one who can give far better arguments than most Kenny fans I've seen on this forum. See you around dude, take care, and let's not bother arguing about this again
Yeah, but Kirkman decided to nope out of the "Game Lilly is Comic Lilly" arrangement
If Lilly does somehow appear in Season 2, I hope she would get closure and redemption, though.
Maybe they screwed her over, but she is who she is unfortunately.
" Is she definitely still dangerous? People here are saying they would kill her as soon as they saw her. 16 months can change a hell of a lot, and I think she will have overcome her feelings of grief and her PTSD by then. "
Yes, Lilly might have changed over the last 16months. But that's very unlikely after the way her character was developing and her story was ending.
" If you take Lilly with you, she doesn't hurt anyone. She flees the group because she feels like they all hate her, which they pretty much do. She could easily have gone out and killed them all. But she didn't. Which shows the carley shooting may have been just a burst of anger, and not a consistent part of her character. "
Lilly drove away with the RV, leaving the whole group behind to die. I don't know what you are trying to say here! Of course they all hated her at this point, she just shot a person of their group for no reason at all, some minutes ago. And no, Lilly couldn't have just gone out and kill them all, she didn't have a weapon.
" I'm not saying you have to be nice to her, I'm saying you shouldn't automatically slaughter her. "
I never said that i would automatically slaughter her, but it makes alot more sense then to be automatically friendly to her.
" Also consider this: Lee killed a guy because he was pissed off. Did you trust him? Or do you think Carley should have shot him as soon as she realised who he was? "
The simple difference here is, we were playing as Lee. So i knew that Lee wouldn't be dangerous. Larry didn't trust Lee because of that reason and i don't hold it against him. He was just trying to protect his family. (Lilly)
Being pissed off was the triggering event though. Obviously she was grieving for her father, but that doesn't justify her actions what so ever.
And no, Lilly seriously does not have any decent redeeming qualities. Certainly nothing that comes close to equaling out her terrible ones.
I think they may save her for season 3. I hope they don't abandon her character completely, as she is a very interesting character.
Considering Kenny already got a good arc, I'm starting to think that Telltale only brought back Kenny as fanservice, which isn't the best way of writing unfortunately.
'her story was ending' - the same can easily be said about Kenny's sacrifice in episode 5.
If you side with her, she apologises for leaving. I also said that it was pointless to focus on that, as she had to leave for comic reasons.
'I never said that we should automatically slaughter her' - no, but many people have, and earlier you seemed to be defending that. Perhaps I am mistaken.
'We are playing as lee' so, in your eyes, it would have been absolutely fine if Carley shot you because you understand that you may seem to be a risk? No, it wouldn't, and Lilly must feel the same as the situations are so alike. She probably doesn't want people to judge her for what she did, and yet so many people here are automatically.
Say for a moment that we played as Clem, not Lee. Imagine that you learned that this man murdered someone else for no good reason, just like Lilly. Would you direct Clem to kill Lee in revenge, given the choice? Or do you think that we shouldn't actually judge lee for what he did in the past, and that it's the present that matters?
I've just given you a list of about eight, and would you PLEASE stop stating your opinion as if it were fact. It's extremely obnoxious, in my opinion.
" 'her story was ending' - the same can easily be said about Kenny's sacrifice in episode 5. "
Yes, the same can be said. The difference is Kenny risked his own life to protect another person, while Lilly was killing an innocent person and left her whole group behind to die. (If you choose to take her with you)
" If you side with her, she apologises for leaving. I also said that it was pointless to focus on that, as she had to leave for comic reasons. "
She apologices for leaving everyone else behind to die? How satisfiyng that must have been...
" 'We are playing as lee' so, in your eyes, it would have been absolutely fine if Carley shot you because you understand that you may seem to be a risk? No, it wouldn't, and Lilly must feel the same as the situations are so alike. She probably doesn't want people to judge her for what she did, and yet so many people here are automatically. "
You can't compare this two situations. Carley didn't know Lee and she didn't know what really happened when he was killing the Senator. Lilly on the other hand, murdered a innocent person infront of everyone's eyes and she didn't even apologice for that.
" Say for a moment that we played as Clem, not Lee. Imagine that you learned that this man murdered someone else for no good reason, just like Lilly. Would you direct Clem to kill Lee in revenge, given the choice? Or do you think that we shouldn't actually judge lee for what he did in the past, and that it's the present that matters? "
Kill Lee in revenge for what? Clem is a 9year old girl and Lee didn't kill anyone she knew. Of course it's the presents that matters, that's the whole point. Lee has changed and was a very good caretaker for Clem.
The manner in which kenny risked his life is irrelevant here: I was commenting that you shouldn't say 'she can't return, her story is over' if you accept the return of Kenny.
Anyway, as much as I would like to read the rest of that, it's getting late here, and to be honest I don't think either of us is gonna change our mind, so I suggest not bothering to argue about it anymore.
" The manner in which kenny risked his life is irrelevant here: I was commenting that you shouldn't say 'she can't return, her story is over' if you accept the return of Kenny. "
I never said that Lilly can't return, it just seems very unlikely to me. Things would get to pretictable and unlogical, if Telltale would just include every Season1 character that's still alive in Season2.
" Anyway, as much as I would like to read the rest of that, it's getting late here, and to be honest I don't think either of us is gonna change our mind, so I suggest not bothering to argue about it anymore. "
Atleast we can agree on that!
Thank you everyone who chose to be nice and talk to her.
No, I do not think that Carly should have shot Lee because of him murdering someone in the past. A lot of that has to do with her not knowing enough about him to make a decision like that. Regardless of what he did in the past, he was a good person. Carly herself says pretty much the exact same thing.
I don't care if Lilly is more sympathetic to you if you side with her. She is still a complete tyrant to everyone else, and that is not okay. Most people can't bring themselves to side with someone like that anyway.
It doesn't matter if she had to leave in order for her to fit in with the comics, she still did what she did and that is all we have to judge her on.
I forgot she gave Clem hairbands. I suppose that almost makes up for her wanting to throw Clem to the wolves when she first arrived at the Drugstore.
Lilly was arguing with the entire group even before Kenny started challenging her on a regular basis. The first time we see Lilly, she is in an argument with Carly and Glenn. There is no evidence that she individually did a good job holding the group together.
She didn't save the entire group from the bandits. Heck, I was "hashing" out some terms with them when she just randomly decided to shoot one of them in the head. Regardless of what you do, Lee is the one who is stalling them. It was a group effort.
Overall, I suppose I am exaggerating when I say that she has no redeeming qualities. She does have a few, but they are massively out weighed by her being a terrible person.
Honestly, I would probably kill her if I saw her again.
What, do you want me to write "IN MY OPINION" before everything I say? Seriously, get over it.
Also, I had not seen your list at the time that I made that post, otherwise I would have addressed what you said.
I am not responding to your points as you have ignored my request to let the argument die.
One last thing to mention: I have asked you before, and I shall again, please stop saying things like 'she is a terrible person'. Just...please add in an 'in my opinion', because otherwise it makes you sound like you're trying to force your views on everyone.
Just please accept that there are others who disagree, and yours is not the only valid option. It may be in your opinion, but is not in reality.
You don't have to act so, in my opinion, unbearably rude in the way you argue.
And I shall repeat, because now I actually won't reply: good night.
Yes, because you totally write "in my opinion" before/after everything you say. Except not really at all. Obviously what I'm saying is my opinion, I don't need to state that before/after everything I say. That would be ridiculous.
I accept that there are others who disagree with me. What I try to do is convince those people to see things differently. That is entirely the point of debating with someone.
Yes. Most people say 'I think' or 'in my opition' before they state their opinions.
Like, if I were to say 'Israel is a country founded by scurrilous morals', that would be far more agressive than saying 'in my opinion, Israel is a country founded by scurrilous morals'.
Well in my opinion, that is completely absurd and not realistic to how people actually speak.
Also, in basic level debate/persuasive speech classes you are taught to be assertive of your opinion. It is actually frowned on to say the words "in my opinion".
Keyword, "was".
It's been two years. Holding onto something that has happened that long ago isn't smart.
We have no idea how much she has gone to regret what she did.
Look at it this way: Kenny would not have hesitated to kill Ben, even though he meant none of it on purpose. If Kenny had killed Ben at Crawford, would you hate him? Why or why not?
By the way, I never saw the edit on your other post. I probably would have concluded what I was trying to say instead of dragging the debate on if I would have seen that. My bad. I also apologize if my pure hatred of Lilly was accidentally spilling over to my words a little
No i wouln't hate him. Ben was responsilbe for the death of Kenny's family and many other innocent persons. It was just logical that Kenny wanted to kill him for that. (But he didn't do that)
And if you decide to let the fucking shitbird survive, Kenny will try to save his life and risk his own life, just to save that fucking shitbird Ben.
If it's logical for Kenny to kill someone when it was an accident, then using that logic, I would say that Lilly was logical to shoot Carly because she made her mad. I could also say that she is logical to shoot Kenny for killing her dad.
No, Ben was not responsible for any of that. He was responsible for the bandit attack, and it was the bandit's fault for attracting the walkers. It was a domino effect that started when our group destroyed the St. John Dairy. Had the dairy still been in business, the bandit's wouldn't have intimidated Ben into making a deal, causing Lee and Lilly to investigate, which led to the bandit attack, which led to the walker attack, which led to Duck being bitten, which led to Katjaa's suicide. Ben was only an indirect factor: the blame cannot be put directly on him, he is only the easiest to blame.
" If it's logical for Kenny to kill someone when it was an accident, then using that logic, I would say that Lilly was logical to shoot Carly because she made her mad. I could also say that she is logical to shoot Kenny for killing her dad. "
There is a difference between beeing responsible for many peoples deaths and killing a man that was probaply already dead to secure the saftey of your group. (I won't even respond to Lilyl killign Carley)
" No, Ben was not responsible for any of that. He was responsible for the bandit attack, and it was the bandit's fault for attracting the walkers. It was a domino effect that started when our group destroyed the St. John Dairy. Had the dairy still been in business, the bandit's wouldn't have intimidated Ben into making a deal, causing Lee and Lilly to investigate, which led to the bandit attack, which led to the walker attack, which led to Duck being bitten, which led to Katjaa's suicide. Ben was only an indirect factor: the blame cannot be put directly on him, he is only the easiest to blame. "
The blame can directly be put on him, because his stupid decisions are in fact the only reason why all of this ever happened.
But as i already mentioned before, Kenny didn't kill Ben. He could have done that, if he wanted to.
Totally agree, there's got to be a place for Lilly somewhere in the story line, if Kenny was able to survive a horde surrounding him on all sides then she's GOT to make an appearance.....the gun shot, I do like to think Kenny popped Ben before they could get at him though.
Ben was suspicious when you ask him about the torch, very defensive., and as soon as you hop on the RV he says "i'm sorry"