I said something about it on the other thread, and i'll re-post here:
"I was regretting that decision... but after thinking more calmly and analyze the facts. I think it was the best decision at the time. of course that a 11-year-old girl watching a "Mortal Kombat Fatality" is, to say the least. very disturbing. But Clem is not a poor innocent kid. she saw so many terrible things.. Walter was a friend of Kenny and Clem liked him too. so I think the two shared the same hatred against Carver. after all that happened and when it became clear that Carver was a big crazy son of a bitch. Clem knew that killing someone like that was not a right thing to do. but that doesnt mean she couldn't stay there and watch that shit die like a worm!"
In the beginning of the show Carol's husband physically and emotionally abused her, but after she chose to put him out of his misery, she was able to become a much stronger person, and she understood that after a while you change and learn to kill - not for pleasure, but because it's something you just have to do.
Then she lost her daughter, and two more girls who had been sent under her care. One of the girls went nutso and killed her sister, and Carol knew that she would harm someone else, so she took the risk, found her strength, and killed her before she got a chance to kill the rest of her group (which included a baby).
That had been an execution shot. But the little nutso girl was a kid. Carver was not. He was a bad man, and deserved every blow he got. Clementine knew that.
i don't watch the show or read the comics so I need better examples
I get what you mean but there's a difference between an execution s… morehot and beating someone's face to nothing with a crowbar.
hell, when Kenny shot Carver's knees I thought he was just going to pull a John Reese and leave him like that. He probably would have died anyway.
What I am talking about is necessity. You need to take someone's life? Do it. Clem didn't need to watch that happen. She's seen so much, that seeing more that she doesn't need to see is just going over the top. Carver needed to die. He was a threat to all of them and was a shitty guy overall. Clem didn't need to stay behind and watch that. In the end, it comes down to personal choice. I wouldn't stay behind if I didn't need to, so I didn't.
No. Watching something isn't the same as acting it out. What Carver said in his office, that the two were alike, he was wrong. He was trying… more to manipulate Clem into being with him, much like how he manipulated Reggie into feeling safe within the prison. Clementine is brave, which is why she kept her nerve when she first met Carver in the cabin. It wasn't because she was a hardened killer. She's desensitized, calm in the face of grotesque imagery. Still, even when Kenny is clubbing Carver in the face, she flinches. Kenny is the person who is losing his "humanity," a fact no one can deny with the present Sarita situation.
Disagreed. Watching someone die, not preventing it, isn't the same as acting it out. It doesn't make one a psychopath. Clementine has already killed, at least in a determinant means. The stranger was killed by Clem, but she felt unstable afterwards. Distressed. The moment we see her kill again, if that ever happens, then … [view original content]
No. Watching something isn't the same as acting it out. What Carver said in his office, that the two were alike, he was wrong. He was trying… more to manipulate Clem into being with him, much like how he manipulated Reggie into feeling safe within the prison. Clementine is brave, which is why she kept her nerve when she first met Carver in the cabin. It wasn't because she was a hardened killer. She's desensitized, calm in the face of grotesque imagery. Still, even when Kenny is clubbing Carver in the face, she flinches. Kenny is the person who is losing his "humanity," a fact no one can deny with the present Sarita situation.
Disagreed. Watching someone die, not preventing it, isn't the same as acting it out. It doesn't make one a psychopath. Clementine has already killed, at least in a determinant means. The stranger was killed by Clem, but she felt unstable afterwards. Distressed. The moment we see her kill again, if that ever happens, then … [view original content]
Until we see the two remaining episodes it is difficult to see how, or if, staying for Carver's death will affect Clem. I don't think it will affect Clementine one way or another because we, as the player, are ultimately choosing her actions. Now it's those actions that will cause the rest of the group to react - whether it's positive or negative depends on the individual group members themselves. I can see Kenny, Rebecca and Jane on board with Clem decision; however Luke and Sarita (if she lives) are clearly not okay with it. The rest of the group are unknowns at this point - there's just not enough to go on to know where Nick (if he's alive), Mike and Sarah (if she's alive/can find her) will be with Clem's decision.
I feel that she had to stay, because she needs to understand that she might be in Kenny's position someday.
It's very , very likely that she will be. She needs to be ready to do what is necessary to protect the ones she cares about.
If Kenny and Rebecca hadn't been there to put and end to Carver, no one else in that group would have been able to. And that would get everyone killed the future, because Carver WOULD come after them again, this time to finish the job. He even said he was willing to kill his own kid and Rebecca rather than letting them escape again.
Clementine can use that experience for good. She can use the ability to make tough calls for good. She can use her innate leadership for good. THAT's how she's can prove Carver wrong the best. That she's not like him. She can prove that this kind of strength can be used to truly help good people.
What I am talking about is necessity. You need to take someone's life? Do it. Clem didn't need to watch that happen. She's seen so much, tha… moret seeing more that she doesn't need to see is just going over the top. Carver needed to die. He was a threat to all of them and was a shitty guy overall. Clem didn't need to stay behind and watch that. In the end, it comes down to personal choice. I wouldn't stay behind if I didn't need to, so I didn't.
I needed it as the player to see that guy get what was coming. I agree clem could have walked away and that was how her personality WAS. I feel threw this season she has completely changed as a character. She isn't the little girl at the end of season 1 anymore. She has lost so much that if someone takes another she would want them to hurt. Just how i'm feeling so far into season 2, but i see the other way around would make a lot of sense also.
I admittedly chose to stay at first because I was curious. But I've since retconned it; with the Clem I was playing, it would be much more fitting for her to walk away.
In the beginning of the show Carol's husband physically and emotionally abused her, but after she chose to put him out of his misery, she wa… mores able to become a much stronger person, and she understood that after a while you change and learn to kill - not for pleasure, but because it's something you just have to do.
Then she lost her daughter, and two more girls who had been sent under her care. One of the girls went nutso and killed her sister, and Carol knew that she would harm someone else, so she took the risk, found her strength, and killed her before she got a chance to kill the rest of her group (which included a baby).
That had been an execution shot. But the little nutso girl was a kid. Carver was not. He was a bad man, and deserved every blow he got. Clementine knew that.
Oh ya, and carol had to kill 2 people she was friends with because they were sick and she wanted to stop the sickness from spreading.
What if something like this happened in the game but if you don't watch carver die, clementine wont have the mental strength to kill those people, so she'd let them live but the sickness spreads, killing like half the group.
In the beginning of the show Carol's husband physically and emotionally abused her, but after she chose to put him out of his misery, she wa… mores able to become a much stronger person, and she understood that after a while you change and learn to kill - not for pleasure, but because it's something you just have to do.
Then she lost her daughter, and two more girls who had been sent under her care. One of the girls went nutso and killed her sister, and Carol knew that she would harm someone else, so she took the risk, found her strength, and killed her before she got a chance to kill the rest of her group (which included a baby).
That had been an execution shot. But the little nutso girl was a kid. Carver was not. He was a bad man, and deserved every blow he got. Clementine knew that.
Oh ya, and carol had to kill 2 people she was friends with because they were sick and she wanted to stop the sickness from spreading.
W… morehat if something like this happened in the game but if you don't watch carver die, clementine wont have the mental strength to kill those people, so she'd let them live but the sickness spreads, killing like half the group.
When the choice to either leave or watch Kenny kill him came up, I immediately thought back to the conversation with Carver near the beginning of the episode. He said that him and Clementine are more alike than she thinks, and I automatically replied, "I'm not like you." But when I chose to watch Kenny kill him, I realized that damn, Clementine was kind of becoming what Carver talked about: the hardened, stronger new generation, the "not weak" people like him, the type of fighter he hopes his child will be. Clementine isn't an innocent young girl anymore, she's going to always see bad stuff and she's not weak like Carver described Regi and the other people in the group who left, but yeah, it made me think back to Lee in a way, too. He would have never wanted Clem to see that.
I actually stayed because I thought I could still try to talk Kenny out of doing what he eventually did. I was alright with Carver dying (I even shot him as Clem) but I didn't want to see Kenny lose even more of his humanity. There was a sense of closure to actually seeing Carver die though, despite how messed up and brutal it was. I like to think that my Clem didn't want to savor the moment, she just didn't want to run away from the reality of what was about to happen to this man who terrorized her and her group.
I think Carver got what he deserved and Kenny was a bad ass for delivering karma to him. Having me said that i decided to have clem leave b/c i wanted her to prove to Carver that he wasn't worth her time. When Carver was telling Clem earlier that he is just like her, i had her respond to him by saying that she isn't like him. I had her leave carver to prove that he was wrong. That itself is a victory in a way. i think there's a difference between being a hardened survivor and being a sociopath.
I hated Carver so much and I felt that Clem did too so I stayed and I fucking enjoyed every second of it..........................although I kind of feel like a monster for admitting that
When I had a choice between staying or leaving I chose to leave. Maybe I didn't like Carver and I want him dead but... for me it was choice between keeping a part of Clementine's humanity and letting her become like Carver. I like to think that in times like this it's important to survive AND keep you humanity because we can't stop being humans and become a wild animals.
I left because the situation reminded of the St. Johns. I didn't kill them, and if you did, Clem would look horrified. That moment popped in my head and so I was like: ''nope, nope, nope, ain't gonna stay here''. I personally have the feeling that if you would watch it, Clem's moral compass would make a 180 degree turn.
I can understand why some people stayed because of curiosity, but to the people who say they stayed because Clem has to thoughen up because there's/will be death everywhere, I don't really agree with that. Clem has already seen countless of people die, she has no problem killing zombies; she knows the world's gone to shit and that you can't screw around. She's been in the ZA for like 2/3 years already. Watching a human person get brutally killed because of revenge, isn't gonna learn her anything, at least nothing useful in my opinion. The only thing you will learn her, is justifiable homicide. Which won't help her at all.
I left because the situation reminded of the St. Johns. I didn't kill them, and if you did, Clem would look horrified. That moment popped in… more my head and so I was like: ''nope, nope, nope, ain't gonna stay here''. I personally have the feeling that if you would watch it, Clem's moral compass would make a 180 degree turn.
I can understand why some people stayed because of curiosity, but to the people who say they stayed because Clem has to thoughen up because there's/will be death everywhere, I don't really agree with that. Clem has already seen countless of people die, she has no problem killing zombies; she knows the world's gone to shit and that you can't screw around. She's been in the ZA for like 2/3 years already. Watching a human person get brutally killed because of revenge, isn't gonna learn her anything, at least nothing useful in my opinion. The only thing you will learn her, is justifiable homicide. Which won't help her at all.
But this is just my opinion.
Carver deserved to be killed. I chose to walk away, figured it was too much for her to watch it happen. I know she's tough and hardened, but she already saw Kenny kill Larry in front of her, this time she had the option to not look. However TT could have added a line for Clem saying "Goodbye Bill" while she was walking away would have been epic.
I was hoping that she would give some awesome monolog to Carver, look at Kenny, say "kill him," and walk away like a champ while Kenny bashe… mores his head in... or Luke could have shot him and this could have been avoided. Oh well, we got what we got. Let's see how it plays out in the end.
Glad to hear that :) I really didn't expect so many people to stay and watch. It intrigues me that the general opinion of the community of how Clem should be ''raised'' has shifted, it's obvious that Carver's actions were the deciding factor, but I just didn't expect it to change so easily.
I was thinking the same. When I finally get the chance to play the episode tomorrow I'm not going to let Clementine see Carver get his face smashed in, because I know that's not what Lee would've wanted her to see. And personal something like that might change her for the worst.
Clementine's got to become strong to survive, but I'd hate for her to lose her humanity. I don't want her turning into Carver or stone cold like Jane.
When the choice to either leave or watch Kenny kill him came up, I immediately thought back to the conversation with Carver near the beginni… moreng of the episode. He said that him and Clementine are more alike than she thinks, and I automatically replied, "I'm not like you." But when I chose to watch Kenny kill him, I realized that damn, Clementine was kind of becoming what Carver talked about: the hardened, stronger new generation, the "not weak" people like him, the type of fighter he hopes his child will be. Clementine isn't an innocent young girl anymore, she's going to always see bad stuff and she's not weak like Carver described Regi and the other people in the group who left, but yeah, it made me think back to Lee in a way, too. He would have never wanted Clem to see that.
Actually my friend in season 1 you have the choice to lose your humanity or not.Lee can tell her killing is bad no matter what and if its absolutely necessary to kill or he can tell her the opposite.
And actually I let her see Carver's death because it's not you that you will kill it's kenny it's his decision to be cold blooded and to be honest i wasn't expecting his death to be this gruesome so I kinda regret it now.
One last thing IF Clementine loses her humanity what do you expect for a 11 year old to do?
I'm just thinking that some of fans are like "Clementine needs to prove that she's tough" but in fact she did it lots of times in the past. Honestly I don't think that she need to prove anything too. She's more mature then in season 1 and now she know how the world works. She is able to do tough things when it's neccesary but she doesn't need to enjoy by killing someone for revenge or even watch it.
Glad to hear that :) I really didn't expect so many people to stay and watch. It intrigues me that the general opinion of the community of h… moreow Clem should be ''raised'' has shifted, it's obvious that Carver's actions were the deciding factor, but I just didn't expect it to change so easily.
I only stayed because I wanted to make sure for myself that he'd be for sure dead, not like Kenny would slip up, but it was just a thing I needed to see. Although, it did seem to affect her and I really feel bad for it now...
I told Carver I wasn't like him while I was in his office. I felt like he wanted me to watch him die, and he didn't deserve to have that satisfaction. I left with Sarita because I'm not like Carver.
I told Carver I wasn't like him while I was in his office. I felt like he wanted me to watch him die, and he didn't deserve to have that satisfaction. I left with Sarita because I'm not like Carver.
I'm just thinking that some of fans are like "Clementine needs to prove that she's tough" but in fact she did it lots of times in the past. … moreHonestly I don't think that she need to prove anything too. She's more mature then in season 1 and now she know how the world works. She is able to do tough things when it's neccesary but she doesn't need to enjoy by killing someone for revenge or even watch it.
Get out of my head! :O But seriously - it's really interesting that in my playthrough Clementine left with Sarita because she doesn't want to witness it and later she just chopped off Sarita's hand. She didn't want to witness Carver's death and enjoying it but later on she made a tough but neccesary decision.
My initial reaction was FUCK YEAH WE ARE KILLING THIS FUCKER as soon as Clem jumped onto him. When Luke takes the gun and points it at Carver and doesn't want to kill him, I think 'what?'
I was like 'I'm badass Clem, hell yeah, I'm watching this.'
But, oh dear. Her face while she was watching it.
She was disgusted and enjoying it at the same time. Yes, Carver was a bitch and needed to be eliminated, no, she didn't have to watch it. It doesn't make her stronger or hardened to watch him die. Killing is bad, no matter what, and watching someone die is worse. Revenge isn't a good thing, if Clem grows like that, then yeah she'll survive, but not as a human, but as a monster.
Personally, I believe in forgive and forget and don't seek revenge. For their safety, yeah kill him. But Clem doesn't need to see it.
What Clem *was* like is irrelevant, because now *we* are her. I would've watched Carver die if this was real life, so I'm not going to wuss out just because I don't want Clem to see one more bad thing. We are supposed to project ourselves onto her, and you all seem to be doing a rather poor job at that. It's your game and your choices, but still, doesn't that type of decision making feel less personal?
It depends on the point of view. I'm always trying to make personal decision's. I'll put it this way. I'm trying to put myself as a 11 years old child in this situation and what I would want to do. If I was there I wouldn't want to watch something like this. Even if I watched many horrible things. Either way if I was there I wouldn't stay.
What Clem *was* like is irrelevant, because now *we* are her. I would've watched Carver die if this was real life, so I'm not going to wuss … moreout just because I don't want Clem to see one more bad thing. We are supposed to project ourselves onto her, and you all seem to be doing a rather poor job at that. It's your game and your choices, but still, doesn't that type of decision making feel less personal?
Comments
"I was regretting that decision... but after thinking more calmly and analyze the facts. I think it was the best decision at the time. of course that a 11-year-old girl watching a "Mortal Kombat Fatality" is, to say the least. very disturbing. But Clem is not a poor innocent kid. she saw so many terrible things.. Walter was a friend of Kenny and Clem liked him too. so I think the two shared the same hatred against Carver. after all that happened and when it became clear that Carver was a big crazy son of a bitch. Clem knew that killing someone like that was not a right thing to do. but that doesnt mean she couldn't stay there and watch that shit die like a worm!"
Then she lost her daughter, and two more girls who had been sent under her care. One of the girls went nutso and killed her sister, and Carol knew that she would harm someone else, so she took the risk, found her strength, and killed her before she got a chance to kill the rest of her group (which included a baby).
That had been an execution shot. But the little nutso girl was a kid. Carver was not. He was a bad man, and deserved every blow he got. Clementine knew that.
A cool determinant quote by Clem, comforting Sarah.
"You can learn to control the pain, Sarah. It still hurts, but with practice, you can make it hurt a lot less.
"I'm not sure this is something I want to practice"
"In this world, we have to , Sarah."
It's very , very likely that she will be. She needs to be ready to do what is necessary to protect the ones she cares about.
If Kenny and Rebecca hadn't been there to put and end to Carver, no one else in that group would have been able to. And that would get everyone killed the future, because Carver WOULD come after them again, this time to finish the job. He even said he was willing to kill his own kid and Rebecca rather than letting them escape again.
Clementine can use that experience for good. She can use the ability to make tough calls for good. She can use her innate leadership for good. THAT's how she's can prove Carver wrong the best. That she's not like him. She can prove that this kind of strength can be used to truly help good people.
At first I thought she was Molly. She still sort of reminds me of Molly but I would prefer Molly over her.
It just goes to show...
What if something like this happened in the game but if you don't watch carver die, clementine wont have the mental strength to kill those people, so she'd let them live but the sickness spreads, killing like half the group.
Depending on the game, you can use humanities or human effigies to return to human form xD
Literally anything could happen, It's always better to be prepared for when shit hits the fan.
I can understand why some people stayed because of curiosity, but to the people who say they stayed because Clem has to thoughen up because there's/will be death everywhere, I don't really agree with that. Clem has already seen countless of people die, she has no problem killing zombies; she knows the world's gone to shit and that you can't screw around. She's been in the ZA for like 2/3 years already. Watching a human person get brutally killed because of revenge, isn't gonna learn her anything, at least nothing useful in my opinion. The only thing you will learn her, is justifiable homicide. Which won't help her at all.
But this is just my opinion.
Clementine's got to become strong to survive, but I'd hate for her to lose her humanity. I don't want her turning into Carver or stone cold like Jane.
And actually I let her see Carver's death because it's not you that you will kill it's kenny it's his decision to be cold blooded and to be honest i wasn't expecting his death to be this gruesome so I kinda regret it now.
One last thing IF Clementine loses her humanity what do you expect for a 11 year old to do?
My initial reaction was FUCK YEAH WE ARE KILLING THIS FUCKER as soon as Clem jumped onto him. When Luke takes the gun and points it at Carver and doesn't want to kill him, I think 'what?'
I was like 'I'm badass Clem, hell yeah, I'm watching this.'
But, oh dear. Her face while she was watching it.
She was disgusted and enjoying it at the same time. Yes, Carver was a bitch and needed to be eliminated, no, she didn't have to watch it. It doesn't make her stronger or hardened to watch him die. Killing is bad, no matter what, and watching someone die is worse. Revenge isn't a good thing, if Clem grows like that, then yeah she'll survive, but not as a human, but as a monster.
Personally, I believe in forgive and forget and don't seek revenge. For their safety, yeah kill him. But Clem doesn't need to see it.