Everyone is either dead or unlikable. Great.
I've loved this game series. It's pretty much all been fantastic. The only episode I'd hesitate to call more than "good" is Starved for Help but that's another story. But as of this latest episode, Amid the Ruins, my opinion of season 2 and possibly even season 1 has been stained. That's how big my problems with it were. And that's hard for me to accept because I have been obsessed with this series. It's almost a masterpiece, until now.
So the first thing I'll address is the thing that bugged me most. The way Sarah was handled. From the beginning I saw that this character had a lot of potential, a sheltered, naive girl for the now more hardened Clem to look out for or act coldly towards? The contrast there would speak volumes for how Clem was grown in strength and potentially her apathy for other people. Whether you were her friend or acted coldly towards her, all the many scenes putting this to the test seemed to be building up to some sort of pay-off where she would grow as a survivor and help you in return or call you out on how cruel you'd been.
But in the end, what did Sarah's story amount to? If somebody wants to die, you should just let them die? If somebody's been sheltered all their life, then the moment they can't be any more, they should just die horribly? What the hell? Sarah's arc is a goddamn Shoot the Shaggy Dog Story. This is something I trusted Telltale not to do, I saw lots of people suggesting unsatisfactory outcomes like that but I never expected they'd do it. Almost every other important character, even if they died, it felt like they at least accomplished SOMETHING. Either they put no effort into Sarah's death or the writers are trying to say that suicidal/sheltered people should just die. I'm actually sort of disturbed. There wasn't even an option for her to see all was not lost, she still had to Clem to care for her while she passed on - no, she just got eaten by walkers screaming for her dad like this wasn't a character they had spent 4 goddamn episodes building up. Oh and sucks to be you Carlos, you wanted to keep your daughter safe but she'll die horribly wishing you were still there for her regardless. Another character whose death now means nothing. "Remember me but don't let me hold you back from it all," yeah right.
Also it's not clever to troll us with a fake-out [Hug her] option. It just further makes it a Shoot the Shaggy Dog story because this girl just can't catch a fucking break. It's a shame because Clem telling Sarah about Lee was one of the most emotionally gripping scenes in the series. She was trying to convince Sarah that there was still reason to live. What the hell was the point in this scene if Sarah was just going to die later anyway? And in such a stupid fashion... it was just shit luck that she was the only one who fell from the deck and even more unbelievably shit luck that some random floorboard just happened to fall to hit Jane to stop her from saving Sarah. It's like they were trying to insult people invested in her character. And why couldn't Clem jump down to help save her? I don't give a shit that it was dangerous, my Clem would've done that with no hesitance. Don't get me started on how people barely even talk about her death. Such is the fate of a determinate character. Oh, yeah. And choosing whether to teach her how to use a gun or not? COMPLETELY. POINTLESS.
Next up, Nick. Oh, poor Nick. There was absolutely no point in letting him live in episode 2. Why give the player the option to save him if he's just going to have 5 short lines in episode 3, then 0 lines in episode 4 then die offscreen? If there's not a point in the choice DON'T GIVE US THE CHOICE. At least Alvin had a touching death scene in episode 3. This was just incredibly anticlimatic. Even Luke's reaction was incredibly disappointing. Your best friend just died and all you have to say is "fuck, fuck" and then move on like nothing happened?
Oh and on the subject of Luke... he is now unlikable. Great. His past fuck-ups I can kind of forgive but having a casual fuck with Jane while your group needs you to stay attentive? No, that's just something an apathetic moron does. Luke then proceeds to be more upset that his casual fuckbuddy left than he was about Nick dying. Wow, way to make him an absolute jackass. I now feel nothing for this character. Good job.
Then there's Kenny. In one fell swoop he went from a character you could either love or hate, who certainly had his downsides but with all the times he had pulled through and learned that family wasn't restricted to blood, could potentially be a great ally... to a piece of shit. No grey areas. I don't give a shit what he does or says from now on. Taking his anger out on Clementine like that, clearly really hurting her, is just unforgivable. It shows how selfish and immature this guy is, at the drop of a hat he'll forget all the kindness he promised you and be an absolute asshole. Pretty much the only thing compelling me to play the next episode is to see this fucker die slowly and painfully. If it comes to a choice between Kenny and Luke, I hope I can pick neither. The pizza and ice cream are both shit flavoured.
Bonnie amazingly made it through this episode. Pretty sure she's the creator's pet by now. She's already outlived a good chunk of the group. Clearly the writers want the player to feel she's a major part of the group. As if she didn't justify Carver killing Walter? As if she didn't betray her old friends and help Carver capture them? A line has to be drawn somewhere, if you do and say as many terrible things as Bonnie, you are not somebody I want in my damn group.
I don't even care who the bullets at the end of the episode hit. I just don't want Clem to suffer any more. Everyone left isn't worth living for, so perhaps a bullet could just hit her in the head and put her out of this misery. As for if the bullets wound or kill any other member of the group, so what. I still hardly care about Mike, who can drop Clem to her death in episode 3. Why should I have any hope for the baby when the writers have shown hope and growth mean nothing and all you'll have left in the end is a bunch of selfish assholes? It's a baby in the ZA, surrounded by incompetent assholes, it's fucked. Really, a bunch of random Russian people we don't care about show up and open fire? That's the big penultimate episode cliffhanger? I couldn't have foreseen something so incredibly dull. In season 1, Clem was the guiding light for Lee, she gave him hope and a purpose no matter his relations with other characters. This season, all Clem had was faith that these people would pull through for her. Now they're all dead or assholes. There's no reason to care any more. There's no reason for her to even keep going. Everything is just empty and pointless at this stage. I won't be buying any future seasons, although I wouldn't be surprised if they kill Clem in a stupid fashion in episode 5 anyway. They've shown they don't care about these characters any more.
Comments
Pretty much. Rebeccah was the only character I cared about at this point and she's dead too because hey, ~baby~ matters more.
Rebecca was the only character I thought was done justice this episode. My Clem was just too broken after Sarah's death, she didn't hold the baby and she didn't feel anything from Rebecca calling her family. Why did everyone expect Clem to be all enthusiastic about the baby when her best friend just died horribly?
Sorry, but I can't agree with you.
I think the stuff you describe as bad is exactly what's brillant about TWD S2.
I loved how Sarah was handled in this episode. It was really realistic and it broke me.
There have been multiple characters in season two I cared about.
I loved Sarah. I loved Jane. I still love Kenny. I like Bonnie and Mike.
And Sarah's death is something that fits perfectly into this world. Because after all the shit that has happened, Clementine (at least my Clementine) tried to stay strong. But what you do doesn't matter, if you like a character, it doesn't matter. The emotional scene with Sarah (the one with Clementine talking about Lee) was great, and it was even better that Sarah died a few hours later. Because no matter what you do, no character is ever safe. And it isn't guaranteed that a character will have a pay-off before his death. It was unexpected, because after I rescued Sarah from the Walkers at the beginning of the episode, I thought she would be safe. But she wasn't. And it broke me, and it kinda broke my version of Clem as well.
I like the second season far more than the first season so far. Both are great, but playing with Clementine is more fun, the story is more exciting, and the choices feel more important.
I get the things you said, but they just don't bother me. I think they are fantastic.
Because we live in a pro-natal society that sees babies as miracles.
I don't think she was done justice. It's a pretty cheap death and one that's done a lot. Even outside of apocalypse games there are plenty of times where a woman is outlived by her fetus as a way to write her off. I could think of at least 5 stories where that's a thing and it's treated as a worthwhile sacrifice.
Telltate really ruined Luke for me. I thought he was going to be the next Lee, but they seriously just flushed him down the toilet...
I liked the episode, but I kid of have to agree with some of this. Sarah and Nick ended up amounting to nothing in the end. No one even really cared that they died. Unless Nick was the reason that Rebecca started crying when Luke talked to her, but I don't think he was.
No one is going to replace Lee, to even think Luke would be able to is laughable
Don't see how the idea is, "laughable," since Luke in the beginning showed a lot of concern for Clem and it seemed like he would be her next role model until Telltale made him into a complete goofball.
i dont agree with all of it but yea, this was a pretty annoying episode with so much shit compared to good
Nobody could replace Lee, especially not somebody who would lock a little girl in a shed. But I do think he was turning out to be a very valuable ally for her to have, who would've protected her as much as he was capable. Then this episode just made him worthless.
Well he didn't want to lock her in the shed, and he was just too afraid to fight against the group. It's not like he was cool with the plan. I really thought him and Clem would connect more, and some of the Lee influence in Clem would rub onto him, so he'd become more serious and hardened like Lee.
But like you said, nope, Telltale completely ruined his character. I don't feel connected to any of the characters really now except Kenny, due to Clem's history with him. If he wasn't there, I'd feel like I'm just with a bunch of random people, because of course Telltale connects you with Jane, then makes her leave against your will.
I think that was why she cried but I won't pretend to understand why Rebecca, who I'm not even sure said anything to Nick throughout the game, cared more about his death than Luke did. And also cared more about his death than Sarah's, a girl she had shown she cared about in the last two episodes, comforting her on multiple occasions.
I wouldn't call him the next Lee, per se, because I think no one can ever be Lee, but I did think he was going to be my bro the way Kenny was for people that agreed with him throughout S1. But then, yeah, he was unlikeable and stupid this episode and they really haven't done anything real with his and Clem's relationship since episode 2. So much for that.
Yeah I get what you guys are coming from in response to my next Lee thing. I guess I just meant the next person to look after and be really concerned for Clementine. Now that Kenny is seeming to get back into shape, it seems only he will be filling that role now, as Jane chose to leave.
Every other important character until this episode had some kind of pay-off before dying. Lee got to protect Clementine and send her off as a worthy survivor. Carley (potentially) got Lee to open up about his past and increase his bonds of trust. Doug sacrificed himself to save Ben. Ben (potentially) got Kenny to let go of his grudge and help out somebody he had hated. Walter either learned to forgive Nick and accept Matthew's death wasn't a cold-blooded murder, just a horrible accident or got to get revenge on his lover's murderer. Alvin got to help Clementine and let her know that he wanted her to protect his girls(although it ended up being a boy, making his last words a lot less potent). There are others but I think this should make my point clear. Sarah and Nick's deaths felt empty and made their entire existence just feel pointless, something the game usually avoided when it came to main characters.
I Agree with you on almost everything. However I still loved this episode. It was very emotional. I am pissed that I do not care for the remaining group what-so-ever besides The baby & Kenny because he is all I have left from Lee and season 1. I also really cared for all the people we lost. I don't know why they didn't keep the opposite people!
Remaining:
Kenny- I'll always be loyal too.
Luke - I never really liked to begin with, Now I diffidently do not like him.
Bonnie - I never liked since the DLC "400 Days" & Still don't like her.
Mike - I don't care for, Not enough character development
The baby - The only person left I care about besides Kenny.
Gone with the Wind:
Jane - Was going to be my favorite character. I really like Clems relationship with her. She's gone.
Sarah - I found kinda annoying in previous episodes, but I respected Carlos. So when he died I REALLY wanted to keep Sarah safe and I definitely liked having her in the group. She could have been almost like the Clem of season 1. She's Gone.
Rebecca - I never liked but I did care for her because she was pregnant. She's Gone.
Nick - Died 2 episodes ago for me.
I wish the people that died/left were remaining and the people who are remaining died/left...Besides Kenny of course.
Kenny, unlikable, agreed, hope he dies in that gunfight
Luke, I dont know about any past fuckups, yes he got down with Jane, I think that was his one transgression though. I appreciate that he tirelessly chased down the group from the lodge to Carver's camp and scouted the place to try and get people out. Why did he do that? Assuming Nick is dead, theres nobody else that he seemed particularly attached to in the group, he came back because they needed help regardless. I still like Luke, even though I didnt care for him in Ep.1, he grew on me.
Bonnie, biiiiiiiitch, I really hate how she tried to get all buddy buddy with Clem in Ep.3, incredibly condescending after getting Walt killed, like giving her a stupid jacket makes up for imprisoning her.
Mike, seems like a good guy, I like him
If you let Ben die in episode 4, he does not get a payoff. Carley did not get a pay-off at all! You say that she "got Lee to open up". The same way, Sarah got my Clementine to open up. My Clementine actually accepted Sarah as a best friend. Sarah was not ready for the apocalypse, that's the problem. Her death is her Dad's fault.
And the "existence feels pointless" is the part I think is so effective. That in a Zombie apocalypse, life can be pretty damn pointless. You can die without ever doing something that matters.
The only character I cared about other than Clementine was Jane. I really hope the entire group is shot dead in Episode 5 and Jane swoops in to help Clementine, and they stick together. That is the only thing that would make me want to play any more of this game, or any future seasons. all of the other characters are either assholes or idiots.
Jeesh, the opinions of this episode are 50-50.
He was a goofball from the beginning. Kenny knew it the first moment he set his eyes on him.
I fucking loved this episode and i like kenny so i still have someone i like and so far this is the best episode
Because you get a choice if Clem should like Sarah or not. You guys want to control the story, you control Clem, how she feels, what kind of person she is. Survivor or humanist, that's the point.
That way I feel too, but I feel that the whole season. It all started with that dog. Lee taught Clementine how to act and the first thing Clem did (And the player had no choice about like with all relevant things) was to open that can, not to use the dog bowl (I really have seen a dogbowl around the tents) or throw some of the food a bit away, to lure the dog a bit. No she lets a starving dog bite her. I knew that season 2 woulda gone down south and after staying at those idiotic kidnapper weirdos somewhere in the forest I knew it for sure.
I really liked Mike after this episode and Bonnie I liked Bonnie as well. I will agree with you on Nick's death, there was no point to it, we could have at least found him while he was dying not zombified. I can partially agree on Sarah, but at least she got more closure than Nick and learned that she wanted to live.
I really liked this episode,but you made some valid points about how the characters were executed this episode.Man,I really hope episode 5 is good.
agree with OP ,i don't care about episode 5,who lives or dies,.....how did they mess this up?
She was done justice until she died. Up until that moment, she was wonderful and likable and I felt a genuine bond with her.
I disagree with your assessment that Kenny's an asshole. The man just lost his girlfriend, someone he loved, and it's obvious that he isn't the most emotionally stable person out there, so taking his anger out on the one he perceives (wrongly, but still) to be the cause of his girlfriend's death is understandable. When you're grieving you're not going to be rational, especially if it's been established before that the character is prone to emotional outbursts. Hell, the fact that he decided to forgo his moping in order to help Rebecca deliver the baby, and that he anchored his psyche to keeping them safe proves that he's not a bastard. Dumb? Definitely, as the baby has a good chance of dying, but he's not an asshole.
Just because he's not Jesus Mr. Rogers Christ Mary-Sue Clementine, doesn't mean he's a bad person.
Bonnie and Mike are the only decent ones left but I doubt they'll survive the standoff.
If Telltale really wants to surprise me, Bonnie and Mike will live and the "Pizza or Ice Cream" decision will be whether to help Kenny or Luke after both get shot. I'd love for Bonnie and Mike to become the next Omid and Christa, in terms of a kind yet badass power duo focused on survival and family, but I doubt that'll happen.
They cannot make Luke perfect.
At this point Mike is the only sane person in the entire group. Bonnie is still a poorly written character. The writers expect us to forgive her as players, but expect us to do it through Clementine, who'd have no real reason to forgive her. Oh, Bonnie's sowwy. That don't cut it, betrayal isn't easily forgiven.
Some determinant deaths make that character's life feel pointless, however the important thing here is that every important character has had one determinant death that had a pay-off. Sarah and Nick have none, while Ben has one. Lee opening up increased his bond with other members of the group, including Clementine. What was the point in Clementine opening up to Sarah if Sarah then just died that same day? Important characters have never felt pointless before this episode.
Ben got Kenny to put aside his grudge and help a kid in need. Ben can also save Lee's life if he goes alone with him to save Clem.
EDIT: Why must you edit your post so that my reply looks completely out of place?
He never was flawless, in fact he was always capable of being a complete prick. To me he crossed the line here though. There's no excuse for saying that horrible shit to a child, especially one your dead friend would be expecting you to protect.
Ah, but here's the thing, the writers want us to think that Clem is super-badass because she's ultra mature and shit in a post-apocalyptic world (as is constantly drilled into our heads by the adults being surprised at her ability to be a protagonist), that means she could take such verbal assaults. Or are you saying that she's a defenseless naive innocent who needs to be sheltered? In which case that goes contrary to her portrayal. She's seen her mentor die, she's decimated zombies and watched people die. A verbal assault should be something she can take easily without the audience shrieking for Kenny's head on a pike.
Same here. I also felt like she was a "survivor" in more than one way. You were rescuing an comforting and protecting a victim of abuse and stalking. I really had the vibe that Carver did a lot of bad things to her and I am very sympathetic as a victim of abuse myself.
Watch how she reacts to Kenny's outburst. She's clearly very hurt and her reaction implies she believes what he's saying. Also seeing those people die has damaged her, even if she's trying not to show it.
Bonnie's VA is a Telltale director's girlfriend
Wait for real? That'd explain a lot.