Um, if you try to save Sarita, he'll scream obscenities at you and then leave you in the middle of a horde to fend for yourself. When you ca… moretch up to him later, he refuses to help anyone until Rebecca's water breaks. Not Kenny-bashing, just trying to give you some perspective.
This Luke vs. Kenny garbage is ridiculous. Both are flawed, that's what makes them relate-able and interesting. It's natural that people are going to like one over the other, and no amount of arguing will change another person's mind on who they prefer, especially not via character bashing.
Is this not understandable? His lover was just torn apart in front of his eyes. It wasn't right for him to blame Clem, but the man was completely distraught. It would be one thing if he held onto the hate, but he clearly doesn't as he treats Clem well for the rest of the episode.
And good for him, he doesn’t hold onto the hate. What does do is completely refuse to ever even acknowledge how he verbally abused Clem and never apologizes for it (except in one incredibly easy to miss and optional scene). He honestly expects things to be hunky dory with Clem after the hurtful things he said to her, that he can pretend it never happened and she’ll let it slide? Just because you’re a hurt man, you think you can abuse people like that and no one will care?
I’ll just repost something I wrote on another thread:
You know what, Kenny? You’re lucky. Real lucky. Lucky that Clem never brings up how you played a huge part in the deaths of Walter, Carlos, Nick, Sarah and Sarita. You’re lucky that Clem is so much more mature and rational a person than you are, isn’t someone who rubs every little mistake you’ve ever made into the gaping wounds in your heart so they can make themselves feel better at the expense of others.
How was Kenny to know what Carver's intentions were? As far as he knew, Carver could have just executed everyone after they had given up.
Bonnie's quote doesn't really justify their actions. I mean.. her group was capturing the other members of the group and holding them at gunpoint, while torturing another man inside the cabin. They more than gave Kenny a reason to shoot at them.
He was to know because Clem can explicitly tell him? “Don’t shoot. He’ll kill them” seemed pretty clear to me. And yes, I know that Carver is the most to blame for Walter’s death, seeing as he shot him, but that doesn’t mean Kenny gets a free pass for his stupidity. He was rash during a delicate hostage situation, and Carlos was absolutely right in holding Kenny partially responsible.
What do you mean by "murder porn torture fantasy"? It was simple revenge from a guy who got his eye crushed and nearly got beaten to death. You have a point that it cost the group a few minutes, though not everyone was telling him to just shoot Carver and move on.
Simple revenge through an incredibly drawn out and unnecessarily brutal fashion during a time-sensitive situation in which it is prudent that the group escape immediately. And not everyone, as in “just Luke”? Whom no one was paying attention to.
You're assuming everything would have been smooth sailing if the group would have left a few minutes sooner? That's just a silly thing to assume. You can't play the "what if" game when there is no reasonable way we can speculate as to what would have happened. And when you think about it, even with Kenny taking an extra few minutes to kill Carver, HE was the one who took action while everyone else was arguing what to do with him. He was the one who made the decision to kill him. How many extra minutes would have been wasted if Kenny had just let them argue amongst themselves on how to handle another man's life? If Luke had it his way, the group would have tied Carver up somewhere. That decision would have easily taken as long as what Kenny did, if not more so. Kenny's decision is not even comparable to anything Ben did.
How is it a silly thing to assume? It’s an entirely sound assumption because we know the two most important things: Troy showed up after Kenny spent ages on killing Carver, and Tavia’s group showed up after Troy showed up. Therefore, it is logical to assume that had they killed Carver immediately, they would have been long gone before either Troy or Tavia showed up. I’ve seen some people say the group would have gotten shot at anyway, but forget that by that point there would be a humongous wall of walkers between them and the compound, shielding them from any bullets. And even if by some astronomical chance things did still went to hell in this hypothetical scenario, that does not change the fact that Kenny was responsible for things going to hell in the canon scenario. It does not matter what Luke would have done, the point is that what actually happened is that Kenny slowed the group’s escape, leading to disaster.
Arguing what to do with him? Again, Luke is pretty much the only one who was against killing Carver, and no one was even paying attention to him.
“Just shoot him.”-Clem
“Shoot him.”-Rebecca
“We have to go.”-Carlos
“Kenny, please…”-Sarita
“We don’t have time for this.”-Clem
Kenny’s response? “I’m making time.”
Yeah, good job with that Kenneth. You’re right; Kenny’s decision is not comparable to Ben. He has long surpassed Ben on the front of stupidly getting people killed. At least Ben had good intentions. Kenny’s reason for killing Carver so slowly was because he wanted to put his own selfish desire for revenge over the safety of the group.
And I notice how you didn’t address the point of “Kenny places entirety of blame of Clem”. Because nothing justifies piling that kind of guilt on a child he supposedly cares about. That was selfish and immature and a transparent attempt from Kenny to make himself feel better by running away from his responsibilities.
He has not been reckless at all really. I would say the only truly reckless thing he ever tried to do was his escape plan back in the truck at the start of episode three. His actions of revenge against Carver could have potentially led to some bad outcomes, but we don't know this and we have no way to speculate. Where does he ever put Clem at risk? I seriously can't think of a single example.
I, on the other hand, can think of plenty of examples. The truck, as you mentioned. Forcing the radio onto Clem even after she and Mike tell him that’s a stupid plan. Attempting to use the herd to escape long before Jane told them about the walker blood thing. Instigating a fight with Mike in an area of the compound they were sent to fortify, meaning Kenny would’ve known that said area was not secure and prone to walker attacks (which is exactly what happened). Indulging in torture porn in a time sensitive situation. Recklessly shooting people in a delicate hostage situation. There’s a ton of examples.
Whether you have your doubts that Carver would have beaten Clem is irrelevant. Kenny personally had zero way of knowing that Carver liked her. And even if it Carver wouldn't have hurt Clem, it doesn't take away from Kenny's actions what so ever.
As lapiswolf rightly says: The beating seems astoundingly heroic... until you realize he was the one who forced the walkie talkie into her pocket regardless of what she said. That led to her needing to check on Luke, then getting either slapped or manhandled by Troy. If Kenny didn't take responsibility after he forced her to take the walkie talkie, he'd have been a huge piece of shit. It's still heroic on some level that he took responsibility there knowing how crazy Carver was but it's hardly some giant landmark of awesomeness like it first appears. Oh yeah, smashing the face of a guy who was already dead by the second hit into mush right in front of a little girl you swore to protect is real heroic. Not going to fuck her up or anything. Lee MIGHT be proud of him for taking the beating, if he can get past Kenny forcing the talkie on her in the first place.
Kenny explicitly tells a little girl, who he knows has gone through unspeakable traumas and has lost even more loved ones than he has that i… moret was all her fault that his girlfriend died and never apologizes (except in one very very specific dialogue choice).
Is this not understandable? His lover was just torn apart in front of his eyes. It wasn't right for him to blame Clem, but the man was completely distraught. It would be one thing if he held onto the hate, but he clearly doesn't as he treats Clem well for the rest of the episode.
He shoots one of Carver's soldiers even after Clem explicitly warns him against it, leading to Walter's senseless death. As Bonnie rightfully says, Carver only killed Walter because "he was protecting his people and Kenny could've killed [them] all."
How was Kenny to know what Carver's intentions were? As far as he knew, Carver could have just executed everyone after they had given up.
Bon… [view original content]
I still like Kenny more than Luke, but in this time, I don't care about any of them like I did in Episode 2 and 3, so... just F'ck it, I'm not picking sides.
Is this not understandable? His lover was just torn apart in front of his eyes. It wasn't right for him to blame Clem, but the man was compl… moreetely distraught. It would be one thing if he held onto the hate, but he clearly doesn't as he treats Clem well for the rest of the episode.
And good for him, he doesn’t hold onto the hate. What does do is completely refuse to ever even acknowledge how he verbally abused Clem and never apologizes for it (except in one incredibly easy to miss and optional scene). He honestly expects things to be hunky dory with Clem after the hurtful things he said to her, that he can pretend it never happened and she’ll let it slide? Just because you’re a hurt man, you think you can abuse people like that and no one will care?
I’ll just repost something I wrote on another thread:
You know what, Kenny? You’re lucky. Real lucky. Lucky that Clem never brings up how you played a huge part in the deaths of Walter… [view original content]
Interesting. I'd hope that the writers of Season 2 are trying to critically present both 'types' as flawed and ultimately untrustworthy, but some people will love them no matter what.
Okay, I'm gonna share a bit of my personal background with my fellow Walking Dead Fans.
My least favorite thing about Kenny was how he re… moreacted to Clem in this episode, and how he reacted to Lee in a similar emotionally intense situation. I get that people get mad and scream and lash out. And especially when someone is responsible for said anger or just someone close by that they can lash out at.
Kenny reminds me of my dad. Screaming and yelling and lashing out. It's so unsettling for me to have watched Kenny yell at Clem. She was just a kid. And honestly, my dad did the same thing to me when I was a kid. Kenny reminds me of my dad.
Another little something about me and how the Walking Dead is impacting my real life decision making. In the past few months I've been deciding something about the type of man I want to marry in the future. (I'm a woman, btw.) my mother told me about two different types if men and I know there are more typ… [view original content]
Agreed, also the only reason he can somewhat give shits about Clem is because she is his Duck replacement, he even mistakes her for Duck, not to mention Kenny only talked to Clem once in season one, ONCE, the exact quote was "get on the train Clementine" in a upset/strict tone
btw, I just saw the video of Clem calling Kenny an asshole. I hate him even more now.
Not only did he ignore Sarita's pleas to put her ou… moret of her misery because he was in denial and too concerned about his own desires to give her the mercy she wanted, he completely refuses to talk to Clem after she told him about Lee. "Don't act like you're the only one who's lost people!" His response? "I don't need to hear this shit." What shit? You're not even going to acknowledge the fact that the little girl you supposedly care about is nearly breaking down right behind you, telling you you're not special and that she's suffered just as much as you?
The way I see it, Kenny never loved Sarita; the people who said she was nothing more than Katjaa's replacement were right. If he had truly cared about Sarita, he would have ended her suffering when she asked him too, not force her to die a slow and painful death because of his own selfish hopes.
All i gotta say is this. If you can't handle a single fight with a friend. You don't have real friends. You should be able to disagree with your friends and debate them. If all your friends do is agree with you, you have very useless friends.
Kenny was grieving, there is no wonder he is mad, if you kill Sarista or not, he will have to seek blame somewhere. Its a 2nd stage of grief called anger. I had no problem Kenny yelled at me. Let him vent, let him blame me, he can apologize for it later. And he will.
Even if he wasnt grieving, if Kenny wants to be mad at me, he can be mad at me, let him cool off and confront him with his actions later.
All i gotta say is this. If you can't handle a single fight with a friend. You don't have real friends. You should be able to disagree with … moreyour friends and debate them. If all your friends do is agree with you, you have very useless friends.
Kenny was grieving, there is no wonder he is mad, if you kill Sarista or not, he will have to seek blame somewhere. Its a 2nd stage of grief called anger. I had no problem Kenny yelled at me. Let him vent, let him blame me, he can apologize for it later. And he will.
Even if he wasnt grieving, if Kenny wants to be mad at me, he can be mad at me, let him cool off and confront him with his actions later.
No, if anyone screams ill shut them up, and if they don't apologize ill call them out on it and discuss it with them in a rational way.
But everyone (so far) has apologized if they clearly did something wrong.
Kenny will realise he did something wrong. But do you expect him to apologize 10mins/1 hour ish' after Sarita died?
Give him time. He is a good man deep down there. But give him some time. He will realise that yelling at a child is allways wrong.
If my wife would be killed by Clementine in the zombie apocalypse, for whatever reason, i doubt i would have handled it as well as Kenny.
Im a very gentle person. But imagine some kid killing your loved one... Just saying.
Have you ever had friends and family with serious problems who scream and accuse you and never apologize for it?
People should not be expected to just sit there and take abuse, when their own feelings are never taken into account.
I sticked with Kenny all throughout season 1 and season 2 is no different im not leaving Kenny even if he has lost some common sense he can still lead thr group and I think he will have a huge badass scene in episode 5 !!!
Sry I'm still Team Kenny!!!
Though he was an ass in Episode 4 (especially in the beginning)
So I'll see how he treats Clem in 5
and then compare it to Luke because he was also a dick in Ep4
Im just saying. If i lost my family. Was left for dead by the Lee group, then crawled back up thanks to Sarita, and have her taken away from me.
I wouldn't just yell at Clem. I might have killed her. I might have killed myself. I probably would have become insane.
Kenny is surely an emotional person who cannot hide his feelings like other people could... Fine, he's only human.
I wasn't just asking rhetorically. I myself have experienced things like this, and it's a very delicate situation for all involved.
As far as I'm concerned, anger becomes inexcusable when it's thrown on children or those weaker than you. Kenny's done it with Ben and Clem, and they have every right to call him out on the abuse. But I do agree with you that Kenny may feel remorseful for what he's burdened Clem with, and his current role as 'leader' could be a way of making amends.
And the only apologies I recall are that from Nick and Rebecca. Carlos never apologizes for trying to kill Clem via negligence in the first episode, making his sudden about-face in Episode 2 feel like I've missed a few chapters.
No, if anyone screams ill shut them up, and if they don't apologize ill call them out on it and discuss it with them in a rational way.
But… more everyone (so far) has apologized if they clearly did something wrong.
Kenny will realise he did something wrong. But do you expect him to apologize 10mins/1 hour ish' after Sarita died?
Give him time. He is a good man deep down there. But give him some time. He will realise that yelling at a child is allways wrong.
If my wife would be killed by Clementine in the zombie apocalypse, for whatever reason, i doubt i would have handled it as well as Kenny.
Im a very gentle person. But imagine some kid killing your loved one... Just saying.
And good for him, he doesn’t hold onto the hate. What does do is completely refuse to ever even acknowledge how he verbally abused Clem and never apologizes for it (except in one incredibly easy to miss and optional scene). He honestly expects things to be hunky dory with Clem after the hurtful things he said to her, that he can pretend it never happened and she’ll let it slide? Just because you’re a hurt man, you think you can abuse people like that and no one will care?
I guess if you're really one of those people that absolutely needs an apology...
Also, who is to say that it won't be brought up again in the season finale?
He was to know because Clem can explicitly tell him? “Don’t shoot. He’ll kill them” seemed pretty clear to me. And yes, I know that Carver is the most to blame for Walter’s death, seeing as he shot him, but that doesn’t mean Kenny gets a free pass for his stupidity. He was rash during a delicate hostage situation, and Carlos was absolutely right in holding Kenny partially responsible.
You're not getting it. Obviously as the player we know that Carver isn't going to kill everyone in the instance of giving up, so it is a clear and logical choice for us to make. Realistically, Kenny would have no clue that giving up would actually cause Carver to spare lives. As far as he knew, giving up would for sure mean the death of everyone. Expecting him to assume otherwise is just unreasonable and unrealistic.
And no, Clem did not have any possible way to know what would happen in the case of giving up either, so her asking of Kenny to not shoot doesn't mean anything.
Simple revenge through an incredibly drawn out and unnecessarily brutal fashion during a time-sensitive situation in which it is prudent that the group escape immediately. And not everyone, as in “just Luke”? Whom no one was paying attention to.
I was only pointing out that your description was kind of ridiculous. (whole murder porn fantasy description..)
How is it a silly thing to assume? It’s an entirely sound assumption because we know the two most important things: Troy showed up after Kenny spent ages on killing Carver, and Tavia’s group showed up after Troy showed up. Therefore, it is logical to assume that had they killed Carver immediately, they would have been long gone before either Troy or Tavia showed up. I’ve seen some people say the group would have gotten shot at anyway, but forget that by that point there would be a humongous wall of walkers between them and the compound, shielding them from any bullets.
Getting shot was not the only danger they were in. Assuming that the whole group would have safely walked through the entire herd of walkers with no issue is what is silly to assume, bullets or no bullets. There is no way we can just assume that everything would have been fine.
It does not matter what Luke would have done, the point is that what actually happened is that Kenny slowed the group’s escape, leading to disaster.
Yes, it absolutely does matter. Kenny was the one who took charge. Seeing as Luke clearly did not want to kill the guy, there would have been debate amongst the group if Kenny had not taken matters into his own hands. Maybe you don't like how fast he went about it, but he still sped up the decision making.
Arguing what to do with him? Again, Luke is pretty much the only one who was against killing Carver, and no one was even paying attention to him.
Yay for bringing up determinate quotes..
Anyway, these things are already said after Kenny already expidites the decision making process by doing things his own way. You can't only look at one side of his impact on the timing.
And if the other characters really wanted to get a move on, no one was stopping them from personally doing so but themselves. Nothing was preventing them from going outside and getting themselves prepared for walking through the herd.
Yeah, good job with that Kenneth. You’re right; Kenny’s decision is not comparable to Ben. He has long surpassed Ben on the front of stupidly getting people killed. At least Ben had good intentions.
The only instance where Kenny's actions have directly lead to him getting people killed was the whole ski lodge incident. Even then, you can't realistically blame him for his actions there. His intentions were undeniably good as well.
Kenny’s reason for killing Carver so slowly was because he wanted to put his own selfish desire for revenge over the safety of the group.
Nothing to base that on at all.
Forcing the radio onto Clem even after she and Mike tell him that’s a stupid plan
Bringing up determinate lines isn't fair. And I mean really, Telltale wasn't going to rewrite an entire alternative plan just because you as the player didn't feel confident enough for Clem to pull off the task (for some weird reason).
Attempting to use the herd to escape long before Jane told them about the walker blood thing.
Its called brainstorming. He by no means had a complete plan at the point that he brings it up. That was the whole point of the meeting. To put ideas together.
Instigating a fight with Mike in an area of the compound they were sent to fortify, meaning Kenny would’ve known that said area was not secure and prone to walker attacks (which is exactly what happened).
We don't know enough details about this. You're just speculating.
Recklessly shooting people in a delicate hostage situation.
Already touched on why this is an unrealistic viewpoint.
As lapiswolf rightly says: The beating seems astoundingly heroic... until you realize he was the one who forced the walkie talkie into her pocket regardless of what she said. That led to her needing to check on Luke, then getting either slapped or manhandled by Troy. If Kenny didn't take responsibility after he forced her to take the walkie talkie, he'd have been a huge piece of shit. It's still heroic on some level that he took responsibility there knowing how crazy Carver was but it's hardly some giant landmark of awesomeness like it first appears. Oh yeah, smashing the face of a guy who was already dead by the second hit into mush right in front of a little girl you swore to protect is real heroic. Not going to fuck her up or anything. Lee MIGHT be proud of him for taking the beating, if he can get past Kenny forcing the talkie on her in the first place.
Again, this is a determinate viewpoint. I would say the vast majority of the players went along with Kenny's plan, and were more than happy to play their part. Nothing was forced on them, because they themselves made the choice to agree with/ engage in the plan on their own accords.
Edit: Sorry for all the stupid auto corrects, spelling errors, and broken quotes... should be fixed now.
Is this not understandable? His lover was just torn apart in front of his eyes. It wasn't right for him to blame Clem, but the man was compl… moreetely distraught. It would be one thing if he held onto the hate, but he clearly doesn't as he treats Clem well for the rest of the episode.
And good for him, he doesn’t hold onto the hate. What does do is completely refuse to ever even acknowledge how he verbally abused Clem and never apologizes for it (except in one incredibly easy to miss and optional scene). He honestly expects things to be hunky dory with Clem after the hurtful things he said to her, that he can pretend it never happened and she’ll let it slide? Just because you’re a hurt man, you think you can abuse people like that and no one will care?
I’ll just repost something I wrote on another thread:
You know what, Kenny? You’re lucky. Real lucky. Lucky that Clem never brings up how you played a huge part in the deaths of Walter… [view original content]
I wasn't just asking rhetorically. I myself have experienced things like this, and it's a very delicate situation for all involved.
As f… morear as I'm concerned, anger becomes inexcusable when it's thrown on children or those weaker than you. Kenny's done it with Ben and Clem, and they have every right to call him out on the abuse. But I do agree with you that Kenny may feel remorseful for what he's burdened Clem with, and his current role as 'leader' could be a way of making amends.
And the only apologies I recall are that from Nick and Rebecca. Carlos never apologizes for trying to kill Clem via negligence in the first episode, making his sudden about-face in Episode 2 feel like I've missed a few chapters.
Before ep. 4 I would have agreed but this episode made me lose a lot of respect for Luke but not so much for Kenny. Maybe it's because I was one of the few people that didn't cut Sarita's arm off but he only was a little rude to Clem (understandably so) and he even apologized later at the tent. And despite all he went through he still helped with delivering the baby. Luke on the other hand was presented as an irresponsible idiot.
To push the point; he doesn't really need Clem now that he has an actual boy to replace Duck - so Clem will soon be getting in the way of his little fantasy world
Agreed, also the only reason he can somewhat give shits about Clem is because she is his Duck replacement, he even mistakes her for Duck, no… moret to mention Kenny only talked to Clem once in season one, ONCE, the exact quote was "get on the train Clementine" in a upset/strict tone
People at this point already know who they like more. There's not a lot anyone can do to change anyone's minds at this point. I like luke a lot more, but kenny blaming clementine for sarita isn't what made me say so. And i don't hate kenny entirely,
"Kenny and Clem are leaders" - I'll agree that Kenny would like to lead. This is exactly why he has to go. He wants to lead, but he lacks one of the most basic skill required, stability. You really can't lead when half the time you're sitting in a corner mumbling to yourself while the group is afraid to talk to you.
Kenny has turned crazy no doubt. But he still helps the group. Luke is too weak. The others are followers. Kenny and Clem are leaders. i'll … morepick Kenny over anyone. Maybe one day Clem will have to kill him, But for now he is sane enough. He was mad because Sarita died. He has lost a lot and so has Clem but Clem can control her emotions. Kenny can't. That's the only difference.
Y'know? I REALLY hope the game gives us an option to ditch both Luke and Kenny, I feel no sympathy or compassion for either. Kenny's been "dead" for a while now, and Luke's goals are so incomprehensible I'm not sure if he's cut for this shit. They're both dead weights wrapped around Clementine's neck, and they seriously need to be cut loose.
Agreed, also the only reason he can somewhat give shits about Clem is because she is his Duck replacement, he even mistakes her for Duck, no… moret to mention Kenny only talked to Clem once in season one, ONCE, the exact quote was "get on the train Clementine" in a upset/strict tone
he was ok when Clem first met up with him back at the lodge they temp. stayed at, but then after seeing kenny get'n beat up by Carver, i guess he just turns into a real jerk in my opinion >:/ i kind of don't like him anymore…>_<
My Clem didn't warn Kenny.. Hell I told Kenny to take the shot at Carver himself! Obviously this is a game and Carver needed to survive so him getting shot was pointless... Alvin dying did not matter though anyways.
Kenny explicitly tells a little girl, who he knows has gone through unspeakable traumas and has lost even more loved ones than he has that i… moret was all her fault that his girlfriend died and never apologizes (except in one very very specific dialogue choice).
He shoots one of Carver's soldiers even after Clem explicitly warns him against it, leading to Walter's senseless death. As Bonnie rightfully says, Carver only killed Walter because "he was protecting his people and Kenny could've killed [them] all."
He puts the entire group at risk by indulging in his murder porn torture fantasy even after everyone tells him several times to just shoot Carver so they can escape. He never acknowledges that said murder porn torture fantasy is the reason they wasted a half dozen precious minutes they could've used to escape, which led to them being caught by Troy, leading to another half dozen minutes wasted.
The group could've been long gone before… [view original content]
Kenny explicitly tells a little girl, who he knows has gone through unspeakable traumas and has lost even more loved ones than he has that i… moret was all her fault that his girlfriend died and never apologizes (except in one very very specific dialogue choice).
Is this not understandable? His lover was just torn apart in front of his eyes. It wasn't right for him to blame Clem, but the man was completely distraught. It would be one thing if he held onto the hate, but he clearly doesn't as he treats Clem well for the rest of the episode.
He shoots one of Carver's soldiers even after Clem explicitly warns him against it, leading to Walter's senseless death. As Bonnie rightfully says, Carver only killed Walter because "he was protecting his people and Kenny could've killed [them] all."
How was Kenny to know what Carver's intentions were? As far as he knew, Carver could have just executed everyone after they had given up.
Bon… [view original content]
You would fuck them, with children's lives in danger, a pregnant woman giving birth, and more so you could have 2 minutes of fun? (If you wo… moreuld last that long) sorry... I'm talking about Luke not being perfect like most people are acting like he is...
Y'know? I REALLY hope the game gives us an option to ditch both Luke and Kenny, I feel no sympathy or compassion for either. Kenny's been "d… moreead" for a while now, and Luke's goals are so incomprehensible I'm not sure if he's cut for this shit. They're both dead weights wrapped around Clementine's neck, and they seriously need to be cut loose.
You think i care if someone calls me a bad name, LOL. I been in high school i think i can handle Kenny's tantrum. Kenny is the only reliable adult taking care of that baby. Everyone knows Luke would abandon it if it meant giving him a higher chance of coming out alive. Luke isn't trustworthy, and i think this episode proves how unreliable he is.
OK Luke fans answer me this: Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1.
This is one hundred percent correct! I have ALWAYS hated Kenny since Season One, and 'Amid The Ruins' made my hate even stronger for him. I would choose Luke over Kenny any day, but I am still kind of angry at Luke for getting Sarah killed.
Kenny explicitly tells a little girl, who he knows has gone through unspeakable traumas and has lost even more loved ones than he has that i… moret was all her fault that his girlfriend died and never apologizes (except in one very very specific dialogue choice).
He shoots one of Carver's soldiers even after Clem explicitly warns him against it, leading to Walter's senseless death. As Bonnie rightfully says, Carver only killed Walter because "he was protecting his people and Kenny could've killed [them] all."
He puts the entire group at risk by indulging in his murder porn torture fantasy even after everyone tells him several times to just shoot Carver so they can escape. He never acknowledges that said murder porn torture fantasy is the reason they wasted a half dozen precious minutes they could've used to escape, which led to them being caught by Troy, leading to another half dozen minutes wasted.
The group could've been long gone before… [view original content]
Kenny may have said some terrible things to Clem, but anyone with common sense would know he didn't actually mean any of it. It's not just Sarita dying, her death on top of all the other bullshit that's happened to him is also coming to the surface. The man is grieving over everything, and the way he deals with it is through lashing out at the people he loves. That doesn't make him right, but that doesn't make him a terrible person either. People like Kenny need to be given time to process before being confronted. That's why I knew it wasn't a good idea to approach Kenny when we first find the rest of the group, but for some reason Bonnie makes Clem talk to him anyway. Clem was just a victim of being in the near vicinity and also being the last person closest to Kenny that he has.
As far as siding with Luke, hell to the no. Yes Luke is much sweeter and nicer to Clem, but he is by no means there when it counts. Excluding dropping Clem and locking her in a shed alone, because even though those things he did pissed me off, they can be explained reasonably. He disappears at the ski lodge, going off to who knows where, guess who stayed to help you out? Kenny. Many say it's because Sarita was inside, but that doesn't make Luke look any better. His whole group and his best friend of 20 years were inside and he just ran off. Flash forward to Carver's base, who was constantly trying to find a way out for everybody? Kenny. Luke was too, but he proved to be useless in that episode and got caught trying to take food. Kenny took the beating for Clem, he didn't have to do that but he did. By killing Carver, he also protected her. Luke wanted to just tie him up, which would've been a bad idea. Even though Carver was injured, he would've just sent his crew after the group to bring them back by force. And finally, who was there to protect the group on the way to the new shelter while Rebecca was in labor? Kenny. Where was Luke? Getting freaky with Jane, after volunteering to patrol the perimeter. Yes, Kenny is a hothead, but when it comes to making the tough decisions, Kenny is the one to rely on. Luke is too hesitant, and has disappeared way too many times when he's needed most to earn that right.
"Kenny and Clem are leaders" - I'll agree that Kenny would like to lead. This is exactly why he has to go. He wants to lead, but he lacks on… moree of the most basic skill required, stability. You really can't lead when half the time you're sitting in a corner mumbling to yourself while the group is afraid to talk to you.
Kenny may have said some terrible things to Clem, but anyone with common sense would know he didn't actually mean any of it. It's not just S… morearita dying, her death on top of all the other bullshit that's happened to him is also coming to the surface. The man is grieving over everything, and the way he deals with it is through lashing out at the people he loves. That doesn't make him right, but that doesn't make him a terrible person either. People like Kenny need to be given time to process before being confronted. That's why I knew it wasn't a good idea to approach Kenny when we first find the rest of the group, but for some reason Bonnie makes Clem talk to him anyway. Clem was just a victim of being in the near vicinity and also being the last person closest to Kenny that he has.
As far as siding with Luke, hell to the no. Yes Luke is much sweeter and nicer to Clem, but he is by no means there when it counts. Excluding dropping Clem and l… [view original content]
Maybe he did that, but he's going insane, literally. He's not stable and i wouldn't trust him with clementine's life anymore. Luke doesn't even seem capable, he's often wreckless, like kenny is most days. I'd rather go alone
He took a beating for Clementine and nearly died. He killed Carver, who would have killed everybody including the baby before letting any o… moref them leave. He birthed Rebecca's baby during the zombie apocalypse. Lee would be beyond proud of Kenny. Kenny has lost so much but still has so much love and strength inside of him.
You really can't lead when half the time you're sitting in a corner mumbling to yourself while the group is afraid to talk to you.
That is a pretty big exaggeration.
Thanks, man. I don't take it personally, I just think that if you're gonna disagree, you might as well say why instead of downvoting without saying anything. That's the point of a forum, discussing and/or debating different viewpoints.
Comments
To be perfectly honest. I'd side with both. We have multiple save files :P
Fuck them both.
Team Mike And Bonnie!
I will admit you are right, Telltale isn't building them up good enough so far most people don't care about either so yeah...
And good for him, he doesn’t hold onto the hate. What does do is completely refuse to ever even acknowledge how he verbally abused Clem and never apologizes for it (except in one incredibly easy to miss and optional scene). He honestly expects things to be hunky dory with Clem after the hurtful things he said to her, that he can pretend it never happened and she’ll let it slide? Just because you’re a hurt man, you think you can abuse people like that and no one will care?
I’ll just repost something I wrote on another thread:
You know what, Kenny? You’re lucky. Real lucky. Lucky that Clem never brings up how you played a huge part in the deaths of Walter, Carlos, Nick, Sarah and Sarita. You’re lucky that Clem is so much more mature and rational a person than you are, isn’t someone who rubs every little mistake you’ve ever made into the gaping wounds in your heart so they can make themselves feel better at the expense of others.
He was to know because Clem can explicitly tell him? “Don’t shoot. He’ll kill them” seemed pretty clear to me. And yes, I know that Carver is the most to blame for Walter’s death, seeing as he shot him, but that doesn’t mean Kenny gets a free pass for his stupidity. He was rash during a delicate hostage situation, and Carlos was absolutely right in holding Kenny partially responsible.
Simple revenge through an incredibly drawn out and unnecessarily brutal fashion during a time-sensitive situation in which it is prudent that the group escape immediately. And not everyone, as in “just Luke”? Whom no one was paying attention to.
How is it a silly thing to assume? It’s an entirely sound assumption because we know the two most important things: Troy showed up after Kenny spent ages on killing Carver, and Tavia’s group showed up after Troy showed up. Therefore, it is logical to assume that had they killed Carver immediately, they would have been long gone before either Troy or Tavia showed up. I’ve seen some people say the group would have gotten shot at anyway, but forget that by that point there would be a humongous wall of walkers between them and the compound, shielding them from any bullets. And even if by some astronomical chance things did still went to hell in this hypothetical scenario, that does not change the fact that Kenny was responsible for things going to hell in the canon scenario. It does not matter what Luke would have done, the point is that what actually happened is that Kenny slowed the group’s escape, leading to disaster.
Arguing what to do with him? Again, Luke is pretty much the only one who was against killing Carver, and no one was even paying attention to him.
“Just shoot him.”-Clem
“Shoot him.”-Rebecca
“We have to go.”-Carlos
“Kenny, please…”-Sarita
“We don’t have time for this.”-Clem
Kenny’s response? “I’m making time.”
Yeah, good job with that Kenneth. You’re right; Kenny’s decision is not comparable to Ben. He has long surpassed Ben on the front of stupidly getting people killed. At least Ben had good intentions. Kenny’s reason for killing Carver so slowly was because he wanted to put his own selfish desire for revenge over the safety of the group.
And I notice how you didn’t address the point of “Kenny places entirety of blame of Clem”. Because nothing justifies piling that kind of guilt on a child he supposedly cares about. That was selfish and immature and a transparent attempt from Kenny to make himself feel better by running away from his responsibilities.
I, on the other hand, can think of plenty of examples. The truck, as you mentioned. Forcing the radio onto Clem even after she and Mike tell him that’s a stupid plan. Attempting to use the herd to escape long before Jane told them about the walker blood thing. Instigating a fight with Mike in an area of the compound they were sent to fortify, meaning Kenny would’ve known that said area was not secure and prone to walker attacks (which is exactly what happened). Indulging in torture porn in a time sensitive situation. Recklessly shooting people in a delicate hostage situation. There’s a ton of examples.
As lapiswolf rightly says:
The beating seems astoundingly heroic... until you realize he was the one who forced the walkie talkie into her pocket regardless of what she said. That led to her needing to check on Luke, then getting either slapped or manhandled by Troy. If Kenny didn't take responsibility after he forced her to take the walkie talkie, he'd have been a huge piece of shit. It's still heroic on some level that he took responsibility there knowing how crazy Carver was but it's hardly some giant landmark of awesomeness like it first appears. Oh yeah, smashing the face of a guy who was already dead by the second hit into mush right in front of a little girl you swore to protect is real heroic. Not going to fuck her up or anything. Lee MIGHT be proud of him for taking the beating, if he can get past Kenny forcing the talkie on her in the first place.
I still like Kenny more than Luke, but in this time, I don't care about any of them like I did in Episode 2 and 3, so... just F'ck it, I'm not picking sides.
Edit: Decided to remove the comment as it was kind of lazy of me.
Interesting. I'd hope that the writers of Season 2 are trying to critically present both 'types' as flawed and ultimately untrustworthy, but some people will love them no matter what.
Agreed, also the only reason he can somewhat give shits about Clem is because she is his Duck replacement, he even mistakes her for Duck, not to mention Kenny only talked to Clem once in season one, ONCE, the exact quote was "get on the train Clementine" in a upset/strict tone
I'd rather go on my own, I think
All i gotta say is this. If you can't handle a single fight with a friend. You don't have real friends. You should be able to disagree with your friends and debate them. If all your friends do is agree with you, you have very useless friends.
Kenny was grieving, there is no wonder he is mad, if you kill Sarista or not, he will have to seek blame somewhere. Its a 2nd stage of grief called anger. I had no problem Kenny yelled at me. Let him vent, let him blame me, he can apologize for it later. And he will.
Even if he wasnt grieving, if Kenny wants to be mad at me, he can be mad at me, let him cool off and confront him with his actions later.
Have you ever had friends and family with serious problems who scream and accuse you and never apologize for it?
People should not be expected to just sit there and take abuse, when their own feelings are never taken into account.
No, if anyone screams ill shut them up, and if they don't apologize ill call them out on it and discuss it with them in a rational way.
But everyone (so far) has apologized if they clearly did something wrong.
Kenny will realise he did something wrong. But do you expect him to apologize 10mins/1 hour ish' after Sarita died?
Give him time. He is a good man deep down there. But give him some time. He will realise that yelling at a child is allways wrong.
If my wife would be killed by Clementine in the zombie apocalypse, for whatever reason, i doubt i would have handled it as well as Kenny.
Im a very gentle person. But imagine some kid killing your loved one... Just saying.
I sticked with Kenny all throughout season 1 and season 2 is no different im not leaving Kenny even if he has lost some common sense he can still lead thr group and I think he will have a huge badass scene in episode 5 !!!
Sry I'm still Team Kenny!!!
Though he was an ass in Episode 4 (especially in the beginning)
So I'll see how he treats Clem in 5
and then compare it to Luke because he was also a dick in Ep4
Im just saying. If i lost my family. Was left for dead by the Lee group, then crawled back up thanks to Sarita, and have her taken away from me.
I wouldn't just yell at Clem. I might have killed her. I might have killed myself. I probably would have become insane.
Kenny is surely an emotional person who cannot hide his feelings like other people could... Fine, he's only human.
I wasn't just asking rhetorically. I myself have experienced things like this, and it's a very delicate situation for all involved.
As far as I'm concerned, anger becomes inexcusable when it's thrown on children or those weaker than you. Kenny's done it with Ben and Clem, and they have every right to call him out on the abuse. But I do agree with you that Kenny may feel remorseful for what he's burdened Clem with, and his current role as 'leader' could be a way of making amends.
And the only apologies I recall are that from Nick and Rebecca. Carlos never apologizes for trying to kill Clem via negligence in the first episode, making his sudden about-face in Episode 2 feel like I've missed a few chapters.
I guess if you're really one of those people that absolutely needs an apology...
Also, who is to say that it won't be brought up again in the season finale?
You're not getting it. Obviously as the player we know that Carver isn't going to kill everyone in the instance of giving up, so it is a clear and logical choice for us to make. Realistically, Kenny would have no clue that giving up would actually cause Carver to spare lives. As far as he knew, giving up would for sure mean the death of everyone. Expecting him to assume otherwise is just unreasonable and unrealistic.
And no, Clem did not have any possible way to know what would happen in the case of giving up either, so her asking of Kenny to not shoot doesn't mean anything.
I was only pointing out that your description was kind of ridiculous. (whole murder porn fantasy description..)
Getting shot was not the only danger they were in. Assuming that the whole group would have safely walked through the entire herd of walkers with no issue is what is silly to assume, bullets or no bullets. There is no way we can just assume that everything would have been fine.
Yes, it absolutely does matter. Kenny was the one who took charge. Seeing as Luke clearly did not want to kill the guy, there would have been debate amongst the group if Kenny had not taken matters into his own hands. Maybe you don't like how fast he went about it, but he still sped up the decision making.
Yay for bringing up determinate quotes..
Anyway, these things are already said after Kenny already expidites the decision making process by doing things his own way. You can't only look at one side of his impact on the timing.
And if the other characters really wanted to get a move on, no one was stopping them from personally doing so but themselves. Nothing was preventing them from going outside and getting themselves prepared for walking through the herd.
The only instance where Kenny's actions have directly lead to him getting people killed was the whole ski lodge incident. Even then, you can't realistically blame him for his actions there. His intentions were undeniably good as well.
Nothing to base that on at all.
Bringing up determinate lines isn't fair. And I mean really, Telltale wasn't going to rewrite an entire alternative plan just because you as the player didn't feel confident enough for Clem to pull off the task (for some weird reason).
Its called brainstorming. He by no means had a complete plan at the point that he brings it up. That was the whole point of the meeting. To put ideas together.
We don't know enough details about this. You're just speculating.
Already touched on why this is an unrealistic viewpoint.
Again, this is a determinate viewpoint. I would say the vast majority of the players went along with Kenny's plan, and were more than happy to play their part. Nothing was forced on them, because they themselves made the choice to agree with/ engage in the plan on their own accords.
Edit: Sorry for all the stupid auto corrects, spelling errors, and broken quotes... should be fixed now.
Can only agree with this
Before ep. 4 I would have agreed but this episode made me lose a lot of respect for Luke but not so much for Kenny. Maybe it's because I was one of the few people that didn't cut Sarita's arm off but he only was a little rude to Clem (understandably so) and he even apologized later at the tent. And despite all he went through he still helped with delivering the baby. Luke on the other hand was presented as an irresponsible idiot.
Ha! Had to give you an upvote for that.
To push the point; he doesn't really need Clem now that he has an actual boy to replace Duck - so Clem will soon be getting in the way of his little fantasy world
People at this point already know who they like more. There's not a lot anyone can do to change anyone's minds at this point. I like luke a lot more, but kenny blaming clementine for sarita isn't what made me say so. And i don't hate kenny entirely,
"Kenny and Clem are leaders" - I'll agree that Kenny would like to lead. This is exactly why he has to go. He wants to lead, but he lacks one of the most basic skill required, stability. You really can't lead when half the time you're sitting in a corner mumbling to yourself while the group is afraid to talk to you.
Y'know? I REALLY hope the game gives us an option to ditch both Luke and Kenny, I feel no sympathy or compassion for either. Kenny's been "dead" for a while now, and Luke's goals are so incomprehensible I'm not sure if he's cut for this shit. They're both dead weights wrapped around Clementine's neck, and they seriously need to be cut loose.
Only that we saw in S1. Also he talked to her in Ep1 kindly
Idk why people turn on others just for going through things like that and needing to move forward from that
My Clem didn't warn Kenny.. Hell I told Kenny to take the shot at Carver himself! Obviously this is a game and Carver needed to survive so him getting shot was pointless... Alvin dying did not matter though anyways.
Give THIS man a medal.
People aren't saying that
Actually a lot of people are saying they would prefer Bonnie Vs Mike for a choice because they don't like Kenny and Luke as much...
Dare i say... Kenny is a "walking dead"?
dr evil pinky laugh
Luke sucks,
You think i care if someone calls me a bad name, LOL. I been in high school i think i can handle Kenny's tantrum. Kenny is the only reliable adult taking care of that baby. Everyone knows Luke would abandon it if it meant giving him a higher chance of coming out alive. Luke isn't trustworthy, and i think this episode proves how unreliable he is.
OK Luke fans answer me this: Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1.
Would Kenny?
This is one hundred percent correct! I have ALWAYS hated Kenny since Season One, and 'Amid The Ruins' made my hate even stronger for him. I would choose Luke over Kenny any day, but I am still kind of angry at Luke for getting Sarah killed.
Kenny may have said some terrible things to Clem, but anyone with common sense would know he didn't actually mean any of it. It's not just Sarita dying, her death on top of all the other bullshit that's happened to him is also coming to the surface. The man is grieving over everything, and the way he deals with it is through lashing out at the people he loves. That doesn't make him right, but that doesn't make him a terrible person either. People like Kenny need to be given time to process before being confronted. That's why I knew it wasn't a good idea to approach Kenny when we first find the rest of the group, but for some reason Bonnie makes Clem talk to him anyway. Clem was just a victim of being in the near vicinity and also being the last person closest to Kenny that he has.
As far as siding with Luke, hell to the no. Yes Luke is much sweeter and nicer to Clem, but he is by no means there when it counts. Excluding dropping Clem and locking her in a shed alone, because even though those things he did pissed me off, they can be explained reasonably. He disappears at the ski lodge, going off to who knows where, guess who stayed to help you out? Kenny. Many say it's because Sarita was inside, but that doesn't make Luke look any better. His whole group and his best friend of 20 years were inside and he just ran off. Flash forward to Carver's base, who was constantly trying to find a way out for everybody? Kenny. Luke was too, but he proved to be useless in that episode and got caught trying to take food. Kenny took the beating for Clem, he didn't have to do that but he did. By killing Carver, he also protected her. Luke wanted to just tie him up, which would've been a bad idea. Even though Carver was injured, he would've just sent his crew after the group to bring them back by force. And finally, who was there to protect the group on the way to the new shelter while Rebecca was in labor? Kenny. Where was Luke? Getting freaky with Jane, after volunteering to patrol the perimeter. Yes, Kenny is a hothead, but when it comes to making the tough decisions, Kenny is the one to rely on. Luke is too hesitant, and has disappeared way too many times when he's needed most to earn that right.
That is a pretty big exaggeration.
downvote me all you want, y'all know I'm right.
Maybe he did that, but he's going insane, literally. He's not stable and i wouldn't trust him with clementine's life anymore. Luke doesn't even seem capable, he's often wreckless, like kenny is most days. I'd rather go alone
It's what Kenny did, not an exaggeration
don't take it personal haters being haters, here is a free like for being you.
Thanks, man. I don't take it personally, I just think that if you're gonna disagree, you might as well say why instead of downvoting without saying anything. That's the point of a forum, discussing and/or debating different viewpoints.