Thanks kennyinbmore - you're pretty much saying what I wanted to say
Of course he isn't sitting around half the time. But he was sitting around for hours. He was - literally - comparable to Sarah.
He builds some fantastical delusion centrered on Duck and Katjaa, and when it starts to crack, so does he.
That is not leadership material. That's "Oh that's Kenny. We keep him around, cause he's got no where else to go. Don't go too near though" material.
Look, the point is, Kenny did mumble to himself for a large portion of time after he lost Sarita. It's not about how long you mumble to your… moreself we just went offtopic. The point is how are you going to lead a group if you are going insane. Kenny has a mental disorder i can easily tell.. He's even trying to replace his family.
OK Luke fans answer me this: Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1.
In season 1 Kenny doesn't risk his life over Clementine (only if you agree with him on everthing aand every situation), so yeah, I think Luke is better. He even traveled thousands of miles without food or rest to rescue everyone from Carver, I wonder if Kenny would've done that, surely not.
Luke sucks,
You think i care if someone calls me a bad name, LOL. I been in high school i think i can handle Kenny's tantrum. Kenny is t… morehe only reliable adult taking care of that baby. Everyone knows Luke would abandon it if it meant giving him a higher chance of coming out alive. Luke isn't trustworthy, and i think this episode proves how unreliable he is.
OK Luke fans answer me this: Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1.
Would Kenny?
OK Luke fans answer me this: Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1.
In season 1 Kenny doesn't risk his life over… more Clementine (only if you agree with him on everthing aand every situation), so yeah, I think Luke is better. He even traveled thousands of miles without food or rest to rescue everyone from Carver, I wonder if Kenny would've done that, surely not.
We can argue all we like about Kenny - but I think it's fair to say that Luke does care a great deal about the group and the people in it.
Why else would he spend hours trying to get Sarah to snap out of it (at potential risk to himself), and why else sneak into Carver's compound (at potential risk to himself).
So the boy got horny, and made a mistake.
And just a final smart-ass note; I'd say everyone cares more about themselves than the group - otherwise sign me up for a bunch of those people (though of course the objection is that he cares more about getting some fleeting pleasure in a cold and unforgiving world, which is an understandable objection)
We can argue all we like about Kenny - but I think it's fair to say that Luke does care a great deal about the group and the people in it.
… moreWhy else would he spend hours trying to get Sarah to snap out of it (at potential risk to himself), and why else sneak into Carver's compound (at potential risk to himself).
So the boy got horny, and made a mistake.
And just a final smart-ass note; I'd say everyone cares more about themselves than the group - otherwise sign me up for a bunch of those people (though of course the objection is that he cares more about getting some fleeting pleasure in a cold and unforgiving world, which is an understandable objection)
Alright, you gave your good points, but Kenny also made a mistake for blaming Clementine. He didn't hit her like Troy.
Luke and Kenny are humans. And they both make mistakes.
The way I play it my number ONE goal is keeping Clementine alive. My number two was being friends with Sarah. And whichever one of them cares about CLEMS surival the most I'm siding with. Right now, I think Luke cares about Clementine more than Kenny. Kenny is very foucsed on the baby.
Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1
I don't think anybody Clementine knows has the same relationship she did with Lee, but that doesn't deter from the fact that Luke has put his own life on the line before. He clearly accepts Clementine as part of the group he's protecting. When he asks if she's with them, he will follow up with a "We're glad to have you!" if she says that she is. Even if she says that looking for Christa is her main priority, Luke will still want her to stick with them so that they can help her. Also, Luke will shield her body with his when Nick shoots at Matthew and he pulls her down with him. In addition, he does goes out to look for Clementine and whoever she's with at the beginning of episode two despite only knowing her for a day and Rebecca's warning against it.
When he follows the group back to Carver's, he makes a conscious decision to help break them out. He already did this before after experiencing firsthand how cruel Carver was. If Carver was happy to push Reggie off a roof because he was messing up all the time, slap a child because she was being disobedient, and kill Walter/Alvin simply because he was angry and wanted everyone to surrender - what do you think he would have done to Luke, the ringleader of the breakout? Luke got his own beating from Carver, though it wasn't as extreme as what Kenny got for stealing the walkie talkie. He very well could have taken the opportunity to ditch his captured group and maybe join another, but he didn't. He knew what was at risk by breaking in yet he did it anyway. Because he cares about the people who are trapped inside, including Clementine.
Luke isn't trustworthy
Would Kenny?
All throughout episode three there's a question of will Luke come back for us? and the cabin group will answer yes. Rebecca and Nick (I think maybe Carlos even says something, but I'll have to check) flat out say that they trust him. They've been with him for a long time and know the type of person he is by now. The only person who's completely against Luke is Kenny, a man who has known him for like a day and already disliked him before they were separated. Now this is all compared to the major decision in episode four where Kenny decides to either help a nine year old girl and her caretaker that he has known for a few months now based on if Lee was his absolute best friend.
Kenny helping rescue Clementine was determinant. Luke's rescue mission was not.
Luke sucks,
You think i care if someone calls me a bad name, LOL. I been in high school i think i can handle Kenny's tantrum. Kenny is t… morehe only reliable adult taking care of that baby. Everyone knows Luke would abandon it if it meant giving him a higher chance of coming out alive. Luke isn't trustworthy, and i think this episode proves how unreliable he is.
OK Luke fans answer me this: Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1.
Would Kenny?
I don't think Kenny is a callous man. But I do think he's failed to learn anything from the misery he's experienced other than "the world personally hates me." He believed his son's death to be punishment for not rescuing Shawn, and then takes Sarita's death as a slight to HIM rather than the tragedy it is to her. He's unwilling to amputate Sarita's arm to prevent her death just as he had refused to acknowledge his actual son's death until it was too late, all because he can't hurt his loved ones even if it is to save them.
And there's the sacrifices he made for Ben/Christa and Clem. While definitely 'heroic', they also come across as him fulfilling his martyr complex. There was no need for him to leave Lee when he could have just shot Ben and left, other than because he had to live up to the grand speech he made about not giving up. "Me and my mouth" sums up his reaction. And after thinking it over, it's quite unlikely that Carver would have treated a quiet little girl the same way he'd treat a grown man who'd already killed one of his soldiers, loosened his bonds, picked a fight with a fellow prisoner and proved himself to be a danger to the community. I'm not saying it's right for Clem to be punished by Carver, but the fact remains that Kenny takes responsibility for her no matter what she wants.
Which makes his reaction interesting in the event she tells him that she amputated Sarita's arm. "How fucking DARE you?" he yells, shocked that a 'little girl' did something that an adult would be more likely to do. I could see his rage at Clementine be his way of processing the shock of realizing she really can't be his surrogate daughter anymore.
I just don't have a problem with Luke being a bit squeamish. That's what I'm there for (Clem that is). I have Kennys few good qualities - su… morech as understanding that Carver needs to be deaded - but I'm not fueled by passion and emotion (and thus erratic). People are already deferring to Clem and her counsel, and with good reason.
I just can't see Kenny as much else than a liability. If he would only learn to count to 100 before taking (most of) his actions, and thus give himself time to rethink it, I might like him better. But he can't, he won't and that's fair. I'll keep doing whatever is the opposite of what Kenny thinks is best, and keep looking for a way to get rid of him (dead or alive)
Just a slightly explanatory note: When I first saw Kenny in season 2 I was somewhat pissed; "God dammit. I thought I had gotten rid of that asshole", springs to mind. Then the game kept on wanting me to pretend that I liked him, when all I wanted to … [view original content]
Thanks kennyinbmore - you're pretty much saying what I wanted to say
Of course he isn't sitting around half the time. But he was sitting… more around for hours. He was - literally - comparable to Sarah.
He builds some fantastical delusion centrered on Duck and Katjaa, and when it starts to crack, so does he.
That is not leadership material. That's "Oh that's Kenny. We keep him around, cause he's got no where else to go. Don't go too near though" material.
He's a grieving man, I don't know about you, but if I lost my whole family right in from of me and was powerless to stop it..well I'd want to get drunk too. It was his son versus somebody else's, I'd have my number one priority be getting my son to safety before someone else's. And he later feels a huge amount of guilt over not saving Shawn and thinks that losing Duck is punishment for that. He came out of the tent when Rebecca needed his help, she had been fine before then and didn't require his assistance. Not to mention, he just lost someone he loved again. I think he's entitled to wanting to be alone for an hour.
He had the shot in his sights, he thought he could take it. He definitely did take a risk though, you are right there.
You've heard of the 5 stages of grief right? It's called being in denial. When you're in that state of mind you aren't thinking clearly, not everyone can think so clinically and unemotionally about someone they love. He reacted like any human being would.
I don't think that's necessarily fair. They were in the middle of a herd, everyone got separated. There wasn't much he could do, especially after Carlos got shot and alerted the walkers to their presence. As always the world just likes to fuck with Kenny and take everything he loves away from him, and all he can do is watch.
The majority? If anything, the determinant scenes are in the minority of examples of Kenny's unreliability. I'll let the determinant scenes … moreslide since, as you said, not everyone experienced them, but that doesn't change how Kenny is invariably unreliable regardless of whether or not one encounters said scenes.
His getting drunk is a prime example, as is his leaving Shawn, his absolute refusal to deal with Duck until it's far too late, and his moping around in a tent when Rebecca needed his help. Yes, Kenny sometimes pulls through in the end in some scenarios (Rebecca's birth comes to mind), but the fact that you cannot count on him to always be there to help you is what makes him unreliable.
And as for Jonny, Clem tells Kenny "don't shoot. Carver will kill them", referring not only to the cabin group, but also to Sarita and Walter. Why would he think that Clem doesn't care about his loved ones when she explicitly warns him that reckles… [view original content]
Maybe, maybe not. that's all it is: speculation. As I said before it's very likely it wouldn't have made a difference. Duck and Sarita are different stories, because those are his loved ones. I'm talking about immediate threats to the group. With Duck he was agonizing over having to put down his own son. But in the end Duck was put down before he became a threat. Yes he waited a bit longer, but I can't be angry at him for not immediately being able to kill his only child. With Sarita, it was an extremely high stress situation(especially if you cut off her arm in the herd and then she's swarmed), He's in shock and immediately directs his anger at the only person with Sarita at the time. Clem. If you don't cut off her arm, he is in denial over the fact that he's losing someone he loves again, in almost the same exact way as his son. When Sarita found Kenny, he was ready to give up, but she pulled him out of it. She was the last shred of hope/happiness he had, so excuse him for acting like any other human would and not wanting to see the truth. And again, in the end she is put down and he pulls himself together to protect the group and help Rebecca give birth. Carver was an immediate threat to the groups safety, and he got rid of that threat. Did he do it out of revenge? Yes, but that doesn't change the end result that Carver is no longer a threat. In those realms, Kenny has been reliable to me in the times I've needed him (season 1 and season 2). I'm sorry you haven't had the same experience.
Yeah, and those few minutes wasted is what led to the group getting caught by Troy, wasting even more time. This is a fact; had Kenny not ta… moreken so long to kill Carver, the group would have escaped before Troy showed up. They were already done smearing walker guts before he got there, after all.
And come one, if you rely on Kenny to "get shit done, regardless of how difficult it can get", what do you think of how he handled Duck and Sarita? What I see as reliable is someone who I know, with absolute certainty, has the groups best interests at heart and will do what needs to be done to ensure those interests. Kenny frankly does not fit the bill. He did not kill Carver the way he did to protect the group, he did it because of his own personal grudge. If he had cared about the group's well-being, he would've listened to Rebecca and Clem and just shot Carver.
Eh, I'm sure you could kill Carver with just a crowbar regardless of gender. Just a swift jab through the eye and he's dead! Ta-da!
So you've never had a moment where one terrible thing after another happens, so then you begin to think the world has something against you/wants you to suffer? Especially, after your whole family dies in front of you , you find someone else and think "things just might get better", only to have it snatched away from you again? Yes, other characters have lost people, but specifically pertaining to Kenny's tragedies, you don't think he has the right to be angry about all this bullshit? It's awful that Sarita died, but after losing his family it makes sense that he'd think "why is this happening to me again". It was selfish of him to wait to put down Sarita and Duck, but we as humans are inherently selfish creatures. Can you honestly say that if you were in his situation, you'd be able to kill your loved one, even if it's putting them out of their misery? That you wouldn't hesitate before killing them in such a brutal manner? Do you have any idea how hard that would be to do, no matter how strong and selfless you say you are? I can't even fathom it.
I really disagree with Kenny having a martyr complex. They were heroic actions, but I think he was really just ready to die and go be with his family. It was just a plus that it would benefit others. Again, I don't understand how you can fault the guy for just wanting the pain to stop. And even then, he somehow makes it out and seems to understand it's not his time yet, despite how much he probably wants to die. Kenny had a safe shelter, a good group, and his girlfriend, only to have it taken away from him and then get kidnapped because of another group's problems. Of course he's going to be pissed off and exasperate every chance he had to escape, he got dragged into something that had nothing to do with him or his group, and is now being treated like a slave.
He reacted like that because Clem was the only person with Sarita, he wasn't there so he didn't know what happened. All he knew is that Sarita was bit(or had a missing limb as well) and Clem was fine. He was angry that history was repeating itself, and Clem was unfortunately the outlet for that rage. When you're that angry, you're going to say a lot of shit that you don't mean and take it out on those you love, even if in hindsight you regret doing it. It is normal to lash out at our loved ones after a tragedy. Clem is the last person Kenny has, so she ended up being on the receiving end. That doesn't excuse his actions, but if you really believe that he meant every word he said, I'm shocked. I think that's awful that you really believe that Kenny would just write off Clem completely, he obviously still cares for her a great deal. It can be seen later in the episode, an example being when he comments how much like a big sister she looks with the new baby. That is exactly what a parent would say to their child when they're holding their new brother/sister. Kenny is rough around the edges and will resort to violence to protect himself and others, but he's not a bad person. Lee loved Clem, and Kenny respected Lee exponentially. He's not going to just start hating her over something she had no control over. If Kenny hates anyone, it's himself.
I don't think Kenny is a callous man. But I do think he's failed to learn anything from the misery he's experienced other than "the world p… moreersonally hates me." He believed his son's death to be punishment for not rescuing Shawn, and then takes Sarita's death as a slight to HIM rather than the tragedy it is to her. He's unwilling to amputate Sarita's arm to prevent her death just as he had refused to acknowledge his actual son's death until it was too late, all because he can't hurt his loved ones even if it is to save them.
And there's the sacrifices he made for Ben/Christa and Clem. While definitely 'heroic', they also come across as him fulfilling his martyr complex. There was no need for him to leave Lee when he could have just shot Ben and left, other than because he had to live up to the grand speech he made about not giving up. "Me and my mouth" sums up his reaction. And after thinking it over, it's quite unlikely that Carver … [view original content]
even if you do stay, she still dies. She didn't have the proper nutrients or care that is necessary right after giving birth, things which they didn't have on hand. It's an unavoidable tragedy really.
It wasn't the decision to leave that killed Rebecca, giving birth to her kid is what killed her. Quite frankly both Luke and Kenny had their good points; they couldn't stay there forever and they need the supplies and Rebecca did need her rest
I don't think Kenny's stopped caring for Clem; he's always had a soft spot for kids, which is why he never hit her at his maddest. But as I've said in another thread, the pressure is making him unravel and I believe Carver represents the end-path of that descent. It's why he's the one to kill Carver and then 'adopt' his son.
It's not necessarily wrong for a grown man to attach himself to a stranger's baby; but the problem is that Sarita's fate and his perception of Clem represents a sign that Kenny is never going to be able to move on. If the baby dies, then what? He has an even huger nervous breakdown and then goes back to adopting people again? He's stuck making the mistakes of the past, and for people like Clem (who can retain their composure without forgetting their loved ones) that makes him unreliable.
Clem deserves someone better than the two guys she's stuck with now, that's for sure.
So you've never had a moment where one terrible thing after another happens, so then you begin to think the world has something against you/… morewants you to suffer? Especially, after your whole family dies in front of you , you find someone else and think "things just might get better", only to have it snatched away from you again? Yes, other characters have lost people, but specifically pertaining to Kenny's tragedies, you don't think he has the right to be angry about all this bullshit? It's awful that Sarita died, but after losing his family it makes sense that he'd think "why is this happening to me again". It was selfish of him to wait to put down Sarita and Duck, but we as humans are inherently selfish creatures. Can you honestly say that if you were in his situation, you'd be able to kill your loved one, even if it's putting them out of their misery? That you wouldn't hesitate before killing them in such a brutal manner? Do you have any id… [view original content]
Edit: I'm just trying to say that people shouldn't hate on Kenny for being in emotional turmoil.
Kenny was hurt badly by the loss of Katjaa, Duck, Sarita and he was obviously hurt bad when Lee was bitten.
Luke on the other hand... I'm not trying to say he's a bad character, but no ones death has affected him allot, not even Nick's... we don't know how badly Rebecca's death affected Luke, but Kenny's gone through so much more.
Besides, Kenny never said what you quoted above the thread, well at least he never said any of those things to Clementine in my walkthrough.
Kenny is the only one who has parenting experience in the group. I don't see why it's bad that he's reminiscing the birth of his own late son. I also don't see how it's bad that he now wants to protect the baby so fiercely, I would be worried if he didn't honestly. I do worry for how he'll react if the baby does in fact die. In terms of protecting Clem, I think that Kenny is reliable. But if the baby does die, I don't know how emotionally reliable he will be.
I don't think Kenny's stopped caring for Clem; he's always had a soft spot for kids, which is why he never hit her at his maddest. But as I… more've said in another thread, the pressure is making him unravel and I believe Carver represents the end-path of that descent. It's why he's the one to kill Carver and then 'adopt' his son.
It's not necessarily wrong for a grown man to attach himself to a stranger's baby; but the problem is that Sarita's fate and his perception of Clem represents a sign that Kenny is never going to be able to move on. If the baby dies, then what? He has an even huger nervous breakdown and then goes back to adopting people again? He's stuck making the mistakes of the past, and for people like Clem (who can retain their composure without forgetting their loved ones) that makes him unreliable.
Clem deserves someone better than the two guys she's stuck with now, that's for sure.
Okay, here’s the thing. I completely understand why Kenny acts the way he does. I know that he’s lost loved ones. However, that does not, in any way, change the fact that Kenny is a completely unreliable person.
Yes, he’s lost his son and he’s grieving so he wants to get drunk. Yes, he lost his girlfriend so he’s in denial. Those reactions are all understandable, but they should not be seen as excuses for his unreliability. No matter the reasons, Kenny getting drunk was irresponsible. Kenny refusing to put Sarita out of her misery was irresponsible. Understandable, but still irresponsible.
Christa lost her boyfriend and child, yet kept her shit together and singlehandedly protected Clem for months. Lee lost his entire family and coped, realizing that there were other people who still needed him. Clem lost her parents, and kept her cool and tried to save Lee from the herd. Those are the actions of a reliable person. Kenny is not a reliable person.
Just as a reminder, the point of my posts was simply to refute your claim that Kenny is a “reliable and loyal” man. Kenny has suffered, he has reasons for his unreliability, but that does not change how he is an unreliable person.
To reiterate, "Kenny is reliable because he has justification for all the times he was unreliable" does not make any sense at all.
And I really dislike the "as always, the world is fucking with Kenny" line of thinking that Kenny seems to believe in because it's so self-centered and narcissistic. Guess what Kenny, you're not special, and literally everyone in the entire world is being fucked over just like you. Duck didn't die because the world wanted to get back at you for Shawn's death. The world does not freaking revolve around you and your actions.
He's a grieving man, I don't know about you, but if I lost my whole family right in from of me and was powerless to stop it..well I'd want t… moreo get drunk too. It was his son versus somebody else's, I'd have my number one priority be getting my son to safety before someone else's. And he later feels a huge amount of guilt over not saving Shawn and thinks that losing Duck is punishment for that. He came out of the tent when Rebecca needed his help, she had been fine before then and didn't require his assistance. Not to mention, he just lost someone he loved again. I think he's entitled to wanting to be alone for an hour.
He had the shot in his sights, he thought he could take it. He definitely did take a risk though, you are right there.
You've heard of the 5 stages of grief right? It's called being in denial. When you're in that state of mind you aren't thinking clearly, not everyone can think so clinically and unemotionally about someone … [view original content]
He has been reliable in the times where it's counted, you're reprimanding him for having moments of weakness that lasted barely more than a day or 2(season 1), and then another moment of weakness that lasted an hour or two. If he stayed strong throughout all of that I would dislike him, because that's not realistic. When there's been danger Kenny has always pulled his weight, and I didn't have to worry about him fucking up all the time despite his situation(unlike Ben or Nick). Getting drunk was irresponsible, but again I appreciate how much effort they've put into making his character as human as possible, it reminded me of the 5 stages of grief, specifically depression. Out of all the characters introduced, Kenny is the most human/realistic.
That comparison isn't valid because there's an issue of time.The only scenes we see of Christa is immediately after Omid is shot and she's sobbing, and saying "no" over and over again. And then there's a 2 year timeskip. Of course she's going to be more level headed and hardened after so long. So yes, Christa is reliable as far as we know after 2 years. We don't know what happened or how she dealt with those deaths in between. As I said previously we've always been witness to Kenny's grief immediately afterwards, when it's still fresh. He still manages to pull it together rather quickly if you ask me.
Those aren't reasons for his unreliability, because when push comes to shove, Kenny is able to step up. I know you keep vehemently denying it, but Kenny is in fact reliable.
From his pov, the world is fucking with him. That doesn't make him narcissistic, it makes him human like the rest of us. How many times must I have to say it is a normal and understandable reaction? When bad things happen, most of the time people think "why is this happening to me", or in his case "why is this happening to me again". Humans by nature are selfish, try as we may to be as selfless as possible, but at our core we are very selfish creatures. Let's put this in a real life situation that has probably happened to everyone at least once. It's just like when you have a bad day and you vent about it, and then someone says to you that you have no right to be sad/angry because there are starving kids in Africa. You're aware of that and it's terrible that they're suffering, you probably think at one point that you never said that your problems were more important than the kids in Africa, or anyone else's. On a scale of who has it worse, the starving children will win, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to be sad and have emotions like any other human being. Kenny being angry at the world doesn't mean he thinks it revolves around him, or that only bad things happen to him and nobody else. He is angry about what's happened to him and his loved ones, and he has every right to be. Kenny has never implied that's what he thinks, so that's obviously a personal opinion of yours. Frankly, I can't believe you don't understand this, being a human being yourself.
Okay, here’s the thing. I completely understand why Kenny acts the way he does. I know that he’s lost loved ones. However, that does not, in… more any way, change the fact that Kenny is a completely unreliable person.
Yes, he’s lost his son and he’s grieving so he wants to get drunk. Yes, he lost his girlfriend so he’s in denial. Those reactions are all understandable, but they should not be seen as excuses for his unreliability. No matter the reasons, Kenny getting drunk was irresponsible. Kenny refusing to put Sarita out of her misery was irresponsible. Understandable, but still irresponsible.
Christa lost her boyfriend and child, yet kept her shit together and singlehandedly protected Clem for months. Lee lost his entire family and coped, realizing that there were other people who still needed him. Clem lost her parents, and kept her cool and tried to save Lee from the herd. Those are the actions of a reliable person. Kenny is not a reliab… [view original content]
I personally worry all the time that Kenny will endanger everyone. His recklessness at the lodge, his recklessness in Carver’s truck where he insisted that the group punch people who have machine guns, his instigating a fight with Mike, one of the nicest people ever, in an area that was structurally unstable and infested with walkers (which he knew since he was sent there for fortification work).
And fair point with Christa, though I still admire her far more than I do Kenny because of how rational and not vindictive she is, though that’s another discussion.
And my concern is not how long Kenny is out of it following a tragedy. My problem is how much damage he is prone to cause during that time. He’s not like Sarah, who becomes catatonic, or Rebecca, who becomes angry but relatively harmless and sane. Kenny is a man who can’t handle things not going his way, and becomes violent and causes a lot of damage when something goes wrong for him. He’s the only one who completely loses his shit and panics after Vernon steals the boat, while the rest of the group quickly starts rethinking their plans. He lets himself get blinded by rage, to the point that he thinks he wants to murder Ben, even though it’s obvious that deep down he doesn’t want the kid dead (“I’m glad you were the one making that call and not me.”) He rants and raves at Clem and tells her incredibly hurtful things because of his pain, even though he doesn’t really mean any of it. The reason Kenny is unreliable is because his method to cope with disaster is to violently lash out and hurt everyone near him.
And I vehemently stand by my view that Kenny is unreliable because he is. He has excuses and justifications for his unreliable actions, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t unreliable. I know that he’s done good things, like saving Lee in episode 1. But a person being reliable sometimes and not reliable at other times does not make him an ultimately reliable person. That is the very definition of unreliable; you don’t know when you can count on him.
And I’ll clarify what I meant by the “world is fucking with me” mentality; my problem with Kenny is not that he believes the world is fucking with him, he believes that it is exclusively fucking with him. He never even considers the notion that maybe other people are suffering too until Ben rams that lesson down his throat. (“I never really thought about it that way…”)
And it’s not just Kenny I’m annoyed at. There are so many people on this forum defending Kenny’s actions by saying how much he’s suffered, completely ignoring how every other person in the entire game has suffered just like him, and plenty of them don’t do anything nearly as bad as Kenny.
In particular, I am baffled by people on this forum who actually give Clem shit for the 'calling Kenny an asshole’ scene by saying “Oh, she called him an asshole, what do you expect? Why should Kenny apologize after Clem just called him an asshole?” Um, so Kenny’s outburst at Clem is justified, but Clem isn’t allowed to call Kenny out on his hypocrisy? What?
He has been reliable in the times where it's counted, you're reprimanding him for having moments of weakness that lasted barely more than a … moreday or 2(season 1), and then another moment of weakness that lasted an hour or two. If he stayed strong throughout all of that I would dislike him, because that's not realistic. When there's been danger Kenny has always pulled his weight, and I didn't have to worry about him fucking up all the time despite his situation(unlike Ben or Nick). Getting drunk was irresponsible, but again I appreciate how much effort they've put into making his character as human as possible, it reminded me of the 5 stages of grief, specifically depression. Out of all the characters introduced, Kenny is the most human/realistic.
That comparison isn't valid because there's an issue of time.The only scenes we see of Christa is immediately after Omid is shot and she's sobbing, and saying "no" over and over again. And then there… [view original content]
Except now, tons of people don't want to go with either Luke or Kenny. That's not an effective way to make choices difficult. Telltale shoul… mored've made us like both of them more so it would be hard to decide between them.
"Pizza or Ice Cream", remember? Not "Puke or Vomit".
If everyone on the truck had been on board with Kenny's plan, it may have actually worked. The time spent arguing with him could've been spent untying each other's binds. He also didn't know if he and Sarita would be killed on point because they weren't apart of the original cabin group. Even the cabin group wasn't completely sure if Carver would kill them or not. He instigated a fight with Mike because he was pissed about the situation he was blindsided by. Not a smart idea, but we also only walked in on the end of the argument, so who knows what was said. Other than Sarita and Clem, who are both females and are proven to handle high stress situations with a more level head/be less confrontational, Kenny is the only man that's been dragged into this against his will. Of course he's going to be flipping out more in comparison to the cabin group who had already been at Carver's and knew what to expect. He was the leader of his group, a member of his group were killed by Carver, his shelter was taken from him, and he was kidnapped by that man as well. Because of another group's issues he had absolutely nothing to do with. The only reason he let them stay at the ski lodge was because Clem was with them.
You've just compared a grown man's reaction to tragedies with two women, one being a teenage emotionally unstable girl, and the other a heavily pregnant woman who has her unborn child to worry about if she flips out too much. Men and women react and deal with grief in different ways. So that argument doesn't really have much ground. He loses his shit because he thought they could trust Vernon, only to be screwed over. The boat at that point was the only way they had to safety. And Kenny wants to kill Ben because Ben just fucking told him that he is basically responsible for the deaths of his wife and child. Hell yeah, he wants to murder him. You just proved my point, Kenny first reacts in a blind rage, but soon after he processes the situation and can admit to his mistakes. If you let him think on it, he comes to terms and is able to bounce back. Albeit he's angrier, but that's just how Kenny is.
He's reliable, because when it's a life or death situation,(in season 1, this is determined by your choices though) Kenny doesn't stay in a corner brooding, he pulls himself together and fights back. That's what makes him reliable, because I know I can count on him to take down walkers and kill bad guys if need be. It's becoming clear that this is a matter of opinion, not fact.
It had been less than a day since he lost Duck and Katjaa right in front of his eyes mind you, so of course he's still focusing on his own problems. When Ben brought that up, he realized that he wasn't the only one suffering. I see that as a win for Kenny, he could have easily just brushed off Ben and said his pain was worse etc, but he didn't. He acknowledged and was sorry about it. Again, it is a perfectly human response to focus on your own grief and problems more than others. Kenny never went around saying that he's the only one suffering, and nobody understands. He just wallowed in his anger/depressions for a short while and eventually pulled himself out of it. The man is strong, no matter how you look at it.
I can't speak for every Kenny fan, but the one's I know aren't writing off other character's suffering, but are defending Kenny's because he is the one who is called out the most and who is given the most shit about everything he does or says. Again it's all about time. Yes, every character has suffered, but Kenny is the only one we've actually witness lose everything and then deal with that loss from start to finish. Other than Lilly, who reacted with anger like Kenny, but also with severe paranoia, and later ended up killing an innocent bystander then stealing your only vehicle depending on your choices. Two things that Kenny hasn't, and most likely would never do.
I have yet to come in contact with any Kenny fan who blames Clem, or is mad that she called him an asshole. So I can't really give any proper insight on that.
I personally worry all the time that Kenny will endanger everyone. His recklessness at the lodge, his recklessness in Carver’s truck where h… moree insisted that the group punch people who have machine guns, his instigating a fight with Mike, one of the nicest people ever, in an area that was structurally unstable and infested with walkers (which he knew since he was sent there for fortification work).
And fair point with Christa, though I still admire her far more than I do Kenny because of how rational and not vindictive she is, though that’s another discussion.
And my concern is not how long Kenny is out of it following a tragedy. My problem is how much damage he is prone to cause during that time. He’s not like Sarah, who becomes catatonic, or Rebecca, who becomes angry but relatively harmless and sane. Kenny is a man who can’t handle things not going his way, and becomes violent and causes a lot of damage when something goes wrong for hi… [view original content]
If everyone on the truck had been on board with Kenny's plan, it may have actually worked. The time spent arguing with him could've been spent untying each other's binds. He also didn't know if he and Sarita would be killed on point because they weren't apart of the original cabin group. Even the cabin group wasn't completely sure if Carver would kill them or not. He instigated a fight with Mike because he was pissed about the situation he was blindsided by. Not a smart idea, but we also only walked in on the end of the argument, so who knows what was said. Other than Sarita and Clem, who are both females and are proven to handle high stress situations with a more level head/be less confrontational, Kenny is the only man that's been dragged into this against his will. Of course he's going to be flipping out more in comparison to the cabin group who had already been at Carver's and knew what to expect. He was the leader of his group which were killed, and his shelter taken from him. Because of another group's issues, he had absolutely nothing to do with it. The only reason he let them stay at the ski lodge was because Clem was with them.
Even if it may have worked, “have everyone punch armed guards with machine guns” is an incredibly reckless plan. And my point was that Kenny’s recklessness has been a constant thing I have to worry about, whether or not the plan might have worked isn’t the issue. Besides, if Kenny didn’t know Carver’s crew was going to kill them, did he not realize that maybe rushing armed guards would be a pretty good way to provoke them into killing him?
Er, Mike didn’t start anything if that’s what you’re thinking. The one line we hear from him is “I’m trying to help you man!” To which Kenny responds that he refuses to do his work. Kenny, and Kenny alone, instigated that pointless and incredibly stupid fight, for little reason outside of a temper tantrum.
You've just compared a grown man's reaction tragedies with two women, one being a teenage emotionally unstable girl, and the other a heavily pregnant woman who has her unborn child to worry about if she flips out too much. Men and women react and deal with grief in different ways. So that argument doesn't really have much ground. He loses his shit because he thought they could trust Vernon, only to be screwed over. The boat at that point was the only way they had to safety. And Kenny wants to kill Ben because Ben just fucking told him that he is basically responsible for the deaths of his wife and child. Hell yeah, he wants to murder him. You just proved my point, Kenny first reacts in a blind rage, but soon after he processes the situation and can admit to his mistakes. If you let him think on it, he comes to terms and is able to bounce back. Albeit he's angrier, but that's just how Kenny is.
What does gender have anything to do with grief? I recall Lilly and Kenny coping with their losses in a remarkably similar way (blind rage and unwarranted blaming). Your claim just seems like an immense generalization to me. Are there studies done on this or something? You sound like you know what you’re talking about, so feel free to educate me. But keep in mind that even if there is some kind of consensus that "men are more likely to explode when in grief" doesn't actually mean all men are likely to explode when in grief. Just look at Vernon, Lee, and Doug.
Also, Lee and Omid trusted Vernon and didn’t lose their shit…
Kenny first reacts in a blind rage, but soon after he processes the situation and can admit to his mistakes. If you let him think on it, he comes to terms and is able to bounce back.
Now this is exactly what I have a problem with. I admire Kenny’s tenacity and ability to “bounce back”. What I don’t appreciate is how much damage Kenny can cause in the time before admitting his mistakes. If Kenny had had his way before his revelation in Episode 5, Ben would have died in Crawford, something that Kenny admits later he didn’t truly want. People don’t have the luxury of being allowed to “think on it” during such dire situations.
He's reliable, because when it's a life or death situation,(in season 1, this is determined by your choices though) Kenny doesn't stay in a corner brooding, he pulls himself together and fights back. That's what makes him reliable, because I know I can count on him to take down walkers and kill bad guys if need be. It's becoming clear that this is a matter of opinion, not fact.
I don’t think it’s fair to cite determinate scenes where Kenny is reliable since you called me out before for citing determinant scenes where Kenny was clearly unreliable. If it’s a matter of opinion and not fact, probably better not to discuss it since that’s not gonna go anywhere :P
It had been less than a day since he lost Duck and Katjaa right in front of his eyes mind you, so of course he's still focusing on his own problems. When Ben brought that up, he realized that he wasn't the only one suffering. I see that as a win for Kenny, he could have easily just brushed off Ben and said his pain was worse etc, but he didn't. He acknowledged and was sorry about it. Again, it is a perfectly human response to focus on your own grief and problems more than others. Kenny never went around saying that he's the only one suffering, and nobody understands. He just wallowed in his anger/depressions for a short while and eventually pulled himself out of it. The man is strong, no matter how you look at it.
Once again, people don’t have the luxury of having some kind of constant advisor to call them out when they make mistakes. Kenny’s method of coping (blind rage) would have directly led to Ben’s death had Lee, a rational person, not been there to keep Kenny’s rage in check. And what happens if Ben dies? Kenny never realizes that he was in the wrong to want to murder Ben. No epiphany, all because Kenny allowed his anger to get the better of him. Kenny’s blind rage also led to him verbally abusing Clem, which is unavoidable.
And let's not even get into how Kenny's lack of self-control contributed directly to Brie's horrible and violent demise.
And yes, his death wish towards Ben was wrong for one big reason; he placed the entirety of the blame of Ben, disregarding how Kenny himself also played a huge role in his family's death by leaving Kat and Duck to fend for themselves during the bandit raid, and giving Kat absolutely no emotional support when she clearly needed him the most. Kenny at least played a part in his family's death, and his attempts to escape responsibility by pushing it all on Ben frankly disgusted me. Same deal with Sarita. He's partly to blame for the escape going to hell, he's the one who did not stay close to the woman he supposedly loved to protect her. He's not 100% to blame, but his assertion that "it's all [Clem's] fault" is pathetic.
He’s strong, yes. He’d have to be to make it this long. But we are not discussing Kenny’s strength. We are discussing his reliability. I will repeat my point; the sheer amount of damage Kenny is prone to cause whenever things go wrong is why he’s unreliable. When something goes wrong, I don’t think “Oh man, good thing Ken’s got my back!” I think “Oh shit, how’s Kenny gonna react to this bad news? Hope he doesn’t panic and yell at everyone and want to murder teenagers!” How long this period lasts is not my point.
And a choice quote from Kenneth: “The hell do you know, Clementine!?” – Kenny, if Clementine tells him that everyone is suffering.
I can't speak for every Kenny fan, but the one's I know aren't writing off other character's suffering, but are defending Kenny's because he is the one who is called out the most and who is given the most shit about everything he does or says. Again it's all about time. Yes every character has suffered, but Kenny is the only one we've actually seen lose everything and then deal with that loss. Other than Lilly, who reacted with anger like Kenny but also with severe paranoia, and later ended up killing an innocent bystander then stealing your only vehicle depending on your choices. Two things that Kenny hasn't, and most likely would never do.
He would have most definitely killed Ben had he been given the chance. He calmed down later, but as I said, my problem with Kenny is that whenever things go wrong for him, I have to babysit the guy to make sure he doesn’t put everyone at risk until he pulls himself back together.
I have yet to come in contact with any Kenny fan who blames Clem, or is mad that she called him an asshole. So I can't really give any proper insight on that.
Just know that such fans are out there, in this very forum. Immensely thankful you aren’t one of them.
If everyone on the truck had been on board with Kenny's plan, it may have actually worked. The time spent arguing with him could've been spe… morent untying each other's binds. He also didn't know if he and Sarita would be killed on point because they weren't apart of the original cabin group. Even the cabin group wasn't completely sure if Carver would kill them or not. He instigated a fight with Mike because he was pissed about the situation he was blindsided by. Not a smart idea, but we also only walked in on the end of the argument, so who knows what was said. Other than Sarita and Clem, who are both females and are proven to handle high stress situations with a more level head/be less confrontational, Kenny is the only man that's been dragged into this against his will. Of course he's going to be flipping out more in comparison to the cabin group who had already been at Carver's and knew what to expect. He was the leader of his group, a member … [view original content]
Kenny may have said some terrible things to Clem, but anyone with common sense would know he didn't actually mean any of it. It's not just S… morearita dying, her death on top of all the other bullshit that's happened to him is also coming to the surface. The man is grieving over everything, and the way he deals with it is through lashing out at the people he loves. That doesn't make him right, but that doesn't make him a terrible person either. People like Kenny need to be given time to process before being confronted. That's why I knew it wasn't a good idea to approach Kenny when we first find the rest of the group, but for some reason Bonnie makes Clem talk to him anyway. Clem was just a victim of being in the near vicinity and also being the last person closest to Kenny that he has.
As far as siding with Luke, hell to the no. Yes Luke is much sweeter and nicer to Clem, but he is by no means there when it counts. Excluding dropping Clem and l… [view original content]
So because Luke is more introverted with his grief (rather than taking it out on others he supposedly cares about/loves), that means that Kenny is somehow the more emotionally sound one?
I'm sure we'll see more of Luke's bad side soon.
Edit: I'm just trying to say that people shouldn't hate on Kenny for being in emotional … moreturmoil.
Kenny was hurt badly by the loss of Katjaa, Duck, Sarita and he was obviously hurt bad when Lee was bitten.
Luke on the other hand... I'm not trying to say he's a bad character, but no ones death has affected him allot, not even Nick's... we don't know how badly Rebecca's death affected Luke, but Kenny's gone through so much more.
Besides, Kenny never said what you quoted above the thread, well at least he never said any of those things to Clementine in my walkthrough.
He is a nice guy, is he reliable? Nope. Can you put your life in his hands, and expect him to be there for you when the time is needed? Nope.
Luke drops clementine the first time meeting her, when he sees the dog bite.
Luke locks her in a shed and doesn't do anything to help.
Luke wants to lie to Walter about shooting Matthew,
Luke goes off missing during the fight at the Ski Lodge
Luke gets caught at Carver's camp (not saying that its his fault, but again he got caught proving a trend of unreliability.
Luke abandons the group in the heard.
Luke lets Nick a wounded man try to get help when he should of went in his place.
Luke has sex with Jane instead of watching the perimeter, which causes the zombies to sneak up on the group which ultimately lead to Sarah being eaten.
Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1
I don't think anybody Clementine knows has the same r… moreelationship she did with Lee, but that doesn't deter from the fact that Luke has put his own life on the line before. He clearly accepts Clementine as part of the group he's protecting. When he asks if she's with them, he will follow up with a "We're glad to have you!" if she says that she is. Even if she says that looking for Christa is her main priority, Luke will still want her to stick with them so that they can help her. Also, Luke will shield her body with his when Nick shoots at Matthew and he pulls her down with him. In addition, he does goes out to look for Clementine and whoever she's with at the beginning of episode two despite only knowing her for a day and Rebecca's warning against it.
When he follows the group back to Carver's, he makes a conscious decision to help break them out. He alre… [view original content]
what are you talking about, he doesn't agree to go with you to head to Vernon's, he goes with the group searching for Clementine after the boat was stolen.
OK Luke fans answer me this: Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1.
In season 1 Kenny doesn't risk his life over… more Clementine (only if you agree with him on everthing aand every situation), so yeah, I think Luke is better. He even traveled thousands of miles without food or rest to rescue everyone from Carver, I wonder if Kenny would've done that, surely not.
Comments
Thanks kennyinbmore - you're pretty much saying what I wanted to say
Of course he isn't sitting around half the time. But he was sitting around for hours. He was - literally - comparable to Sarah.
He builds some fantastical delusion centrered on Duck and Katjaa, and when it starts to crack, so does he.
That is not leadership material. That's "Oh that's Kenny. We keep him around, cause he's got no where else to go. Don't go too near though" material.
OK Luke fans answer me this: Would Luke risk his life for Clementine as Lee did in Season 1.
In season 1 Kenny doesn't risk his life over Clementine (only if you agree with him on everthing aand every situation), so yeah, I think Luke is better. He even traveled thousands of miles without food or rest to rescue everyone from Carver, I wonder if Kenny would've done that, surely not.
Kenny sacrificed his eye for Clem. What more does he need to do?
Thanks to Luke you mean, Clementine would be as well as bitten a long time ago if it weren't for Luke rescuing her in the woods
TellTale doesn't give the option to follow that one
I'm just showing how Luke cares about himself more than the group. Unlike Kenny.
We can argue all we like about Kenny - but I think it's fair to say that Luke does care a great deal about the group and the people in it.
Why else would he spend hours trying to get Sarah to snap out of it (at potential risk to himself), and why else sneak into Carver's compound (at potential risk to himself).
So the boy got horny, and made a mistake.
And just a final smart-ass note; I'd say everyone cares more about themselves than the group - otherwise sign me up for a bunch of those people (though of course the objection is that he cares more about getting some fleeting pleasure in a cold and unforgiving world, which is an understandable objection)
Alright, you gave your good points, but Kenny also made a mistake for blaming Clementine. He didn't hit her like Troy.
Luke and Kenny are humans. And they both make mistakes.
Oh yes, Kenny made many a mistake
They both did, I agree.
I like you now, have an upvote.
The way I play it my number ONE goal is keeping Clementine alive. My number two was being friends with Sarah. And whichever one of them cares about CLEMS surival the most I'm siding with. Right now, I think Luke cares about Clementine more than Kenny. Kenny is very foucsed on the baby.
I don't think anybody Clementine knows has the same relationship she did with Lee, but that doesn't deter from the fact that Luke has put his own life on the line before. He clearly accepts Clementine as part of the group he's protecting. When he asks if she's with them, he will follow up with a "We're glad to have you!" if she says that she is. Even if she says that looking for Christa is her main priority, Luke will still want her to stick with them so that they can help her. Also, Luke will shield her body with his when Nick shoots at Matthew and he pulls her down with him. In addition, he does goes out to look for Clementine and whoever she's with at the beginning of episode two despite only knowing her for a day and Rebecca's warning against it.
When he follows the group back to Carver's, he makes a conscious decision to help break them out. He already did this before after experiencing firsthand how cruel Carver was. If Carver was happy to push Reggie off a roof because he was messing up all the time, slap a child because she was being disobedient, and kill Walter/Alvin simply because he was angry and wanted everyone to surrender - what do you think he would have done to Luke, the ringleader of the breakout? Luke got his own beating from Carver, though it wasn't as extreme as what Kenny got for stealing the walkie talkie. He very well could have taken the opportunity to ditch his captured group and maybe join another, but he didn't. He knew what was at risk by breaking in yet he did it anyway. Because he cares about the people who are trapped inside, including Clementine.
All throughout episode three there's a question of will Luke come back for us? and the cabin group will answer yes. Rebecca and Nick (I think maybe Carlos even says something, but I'll have to check) flat out say that they trust him. They've been with him for a long time and know the type of person he is by now. The only person who's completely against Luke is Kenny, a man who has known him for like a day and already disliked him before they were separated. Now this is all compared to the major decision in episode four where Kenny decides to either help a nine year old girl and her caretaker that he has known for a few months now based on if Lee was his absolute best friend.
Kenny helping rescue Clementine was determinant. Luke's rescue mission was not.
they're both crazy!!!! eveyone i care about has been gone and kenny hates me now i just have bonnie and mike ahhh..... i miss the old group.....
I don't think Kenny is a callous man. But I do think he's failed to learn anything from the misery he's experienced other than "the world personally hates me." He believed his son's death to be punishment for not rescuing Shawn, and then takes Sarita's death as a slight to HIM rather than the tragedy it is to her. He's unwilling to amputate Sarita's arm to prevent her death just as he had refused to acknowledge his actual son's death until it was too late, all because he can't hurt his loved ones even if it is to save them.
And there's the sacrifices he made for Ben/Christa and Clem. While definitely 'heroic', they also come across as him fulfilling his martyr complex. There was no need for him to leave Lee when he could have just shot Ben and left, other than because he had to live up to the grand speech he made about not giving up. "Me and my mouth" sums up his reaction. And after thinking it over, it's quite unlikely that Carver would have treated a quiet little girl the same way he'd treat a grown man who'd already killed one of his soldiers, loosened his bonds, picked a fight with a fellow prisoner and proved himself to be a danger to the community. I'm not saying it's right for Clem to be punished by Carver, but the fact remains that Kenny takes responsibility for her no matter what she wants.
Which makes his reaction interesting in the event she tells him that she amputated Sarita's arm. "How fucking DARE you?" he yells, shocked that a 'little girl' did something that an adult would be more likely to do. I could see his rage at Clementine be his way of processing the shock of realizing she really can't be his surrogate daughter anymore.
Hey, as long as you admit that you were exaggerating that is all I care about. That is all I was trying to say.
Just because the guy has one instance where he wants to be left alone does not mean he is an unstable leader/ group member.
He's a grieving man, I don't know about you, but if I lost my whole family right in from of me and was powerless to stop it..well I'd want to get drunk too. It was his son versus somebody else's, I'd have my number one priority be getting my son to safety before someone else's. And he later feels a huge amount of guilt over not saving Shawn and thinks that losing Duck is punishment for that. He came out of the tent when Rebecca needed his help, she had been fine before then and didn't require his assistance. Not to mention, he just lost someone he loved again. I think he's entitled to wanting to be alone for an hour.
He had the shot in his sights, he thought he could take it. He definitely did take a risk though, you are right there.
You've heard of the 5 stages of grief right? It's called being in denial. When you're in that state of mind you aren't thinking clearly, not everyone can think so clinically and unemotionally about someone they love. He reacted like any human being would.
I don't think that's necessarily fair. They were in the middle of a herd, everyone got separated. There wasn't much he could do, especially after Carlos got shot and alerted the walkers to their presence. As always the world just likes to fuck with Kenny and take everything he loves away from him, and all he can do is watch.
Clementine: Not gonna lie, Mark. You tasted delicious.
Maybe, maybe not. that's all it is: speculation. As I said before it's very likely it wouldn't have made a difference. Duck and Sarita are different stories, because those are his loved ones. I'm talking about immediate threats to the group. With Duck he was agonizing over having to put down his own son. But in the end Duck was put down before he became a threat. Yes he waited a bit longer, but I can't be angry at him for not immediately being able to kill his only child. With Sarita, it was an extremely high stress situation(especially if you cut off her arm in the herd and then she's swarmed), He's in shock and immediately directs his anger at the only person with Sarita at the time. Clem. If you don't cut off her arm, he is in denial over the fact that he's losing someone he loves again, in almost the same exact way as his son. When Sarita found Kenny, he was ready to give up, but she pulled him out of it. She was the last shred of hope/happiness he had, so excuse him for acting like any other human would and not wanting to see the truth. And again, in the end she is put down and he pulls himself together to protect the group and help Rebecca give birth. Carver was an immediate threat to the groups safety, and he got rid of that threat. Did he do it out of revenge? Yes, but that doesn't change the end result that Carver is no longer a threat. In those realms, Kenny has been reliable to me in the times I've needed him (season 1 and season 2). I'm sorry you haven't had the same experience.
Lol xD
So you've never had a moment where one terrible thing after another happens, so then you begin to think the world has something against you/wants you to suffer? Especially, after your whole family dies in front of you , you find someone else and think "things just might get better", only to have it snatched away from you again? Yes, other characters have lost people, but specifically pertaining to Kenny's tragedies, you don't think he has the right to be angry about all this bullshit? It's awful that Sarita died, but after losing his family it makes sense that he'd think "why is this happening to me again". It was selfish of him to wait to put down Sarita and Duck, but we as humans are inherently selfish creatures. Can you honestly say that if you were in his situation, you'd be able to kill your loved one, even if it's putting them out of their misery? That you wouldn't hesitate before killing them in such a brutal manner? Do you have any idea how hard that would be to do, no matter how strong and selfless you say you are? I can't even fathom it.
I really disagree with Kenny having a martyr complex. They were heroic actions, but I think he was really just ready to die and go be with his family. It was just a plus that it would benefit others. Again, I don't understand how you can fault the guy for just wanting the pain to stop. And even then, he somehow makes it out and seems to understand it's not his time yet, despite how much he probably wants to die. Kenny had a safe shelter, a good group, and his girlfriend, only to have it taken away from him and then get kidnapped because of another group's problems. Of course he's going to be pissed off and exasperate every chance he had to escape, he got dragged into something that had nothing to do with him or his group, and is now being treated like a slave.
He reacted like that because Clem was the only person with Sarita, he wasn't there so he didn't know what happened. All he knew is that Sarita was bit(or had a missing limb as well) and Clem was fine. He was angry that history was repeating itself, and Clem was unfortunately the outlet for that rage. When you're that angry, you're going to say a lot of shit that you don't mean and take it out on those you love, even if in hindsight you regret doing it. It is normal to lash out at our loved ones after a tragedy. Clem is the last person Kenny has, so she ended up being on the receiving end. That doesn't excuse his actions, but if you really believe that he meant every word he said, I'm shocked. I think that's awful that you really believe that Kenny would just write off Clem completely, he obviously still cares for her a great deal. It can be seen later in the episode, an example being when he comments how much like a big sister she looks with the new baby. That is exactly what a parent would say to their child when they're holding their new brother/sister. Kenny is rough around the edges and will resort to violence to protect himself and others, but he's not a bad person. Lee loved Clem, and Kenny respected Lee exponentially. He's not going to just start hating her over something she had no control over. If Kenny hates anyone, it's himself.
even if you do stay, she still dies. She didn't have the proper nutrients or care that is necessary right after giving birth, things which they didn't have on hand. It's an unavoidable tragedy really.
I don't think Kenny's stopped caring for Clem; he's always had a soft spot for kids, which is why he never hit her at his maddest. But as I've said in another thread, the pressure is making him unravel and I believe Carver represents the end-path of that descent. It's why he's the one to kill Carver and then 'adopt' his son.
It's not necessarily wrong for a grown man to attach himself to a stranger's baby; but the problem is that Sarita's fate and his perception of Clem represents a sign that Kenny is never going to be able to move on. If the baby dies, then what? He has an even huger nervous breakdown and then goes back to adopting people again? He's stuck making the mistakes of the past, and for people like Clem (who can retain their composure without forgetting their loved ones) that makes him unreliable.
Clem deserves someone better than the two guys she's stuck with now, that's for sure.
I'm sure we'll see more of Luke's bad side soon.
Edit: I'm just trying to say that people shouldn't hate on Kenny for being in emotional turmoil.
Kenny was hurt badly by the loss of Katjaa, Duck, Sarita and he was obviously hurt bad when Lee was bitten.
Luke on the other hand... I'm not trying to say he's a bad character, but no ones death has affected him allot, not even Nick's... we don't know how badly Rebecca's death affected Luke, but Kenny's gone through so much more.
Besides, Kenny never said what you quoted above the thread, well at least he never said any of those things to Clementine in my walkthrough.
Kenny is the only one who has parenting experience in the group. I don't see why it's bad that he's reminiscing the birth of his own late son. I also don't see how it's bad that he now wants to protect the baby so fiercely, I would be worried if he didn't honestly. I do worry for how he'll react if the baby does in fact die. In terms of protecting Clem, I think that Kenny is reliable. But if the baby does die, I don't know how emotionally reliable he will be.
Okay, here’s the thing. I completely understand why Kenny acts the way he does. I know that he’s lost loved ones. However, that does not, in any way, change the fact that Kenny is a completely unreliable person.
Yes, he’s lost his son and he’s grieving so he wants to get drunk. Yes, he lost his girlfriend so he’s in denial. Those reactions are all understandable, but they should not be seen as excuses for his unreliability. No matter the reasons, Kenny getting drunk was irresponsible. Kenny refusing to put Sarita out of her misery was irresponsible. Understandable, but still irresponsible.
Christa lost her boyfriend and child, yet kept her shit together and singlehandedly protected Clem for months. Lee lost his entire family and coped, realizing that there were other people who still needed him. Clem lost her parents, and kept her cool and tried to save Lee from the herd. Those are the actions of a reliable person. Kenny is not a reliable person.
Just as a reminder, the point of my posts was simply to refute your claim that Kenny is a “reliable and loyal” man. Kenny has suffered, he has reasons for his unreliability, but that does not change how he is an unreliable person.
To reiterate, "Kenny is reliable because he has justification for all the times he was unreliable" does not make any sense at all.
And I really dislike the "as always, the world is fucking with Kenny" line of thinking that Kenny seems to believe in because it's so self-centered and narcissistic. Guess what Kenny, you're not special, and literally everyone in the entire world is being fucked over just like you. Duck didn't die because the world wanted to get back at you for Shawn's death. The world does not freaking revolve around you and your actions.
He has been reliable in the times where it's counted, you're reprimanding him for having moments of weakness that lasted barely more than a day or 2(season 1), and then another moment of weakness that lasted an hour or two. If he stayed strong throughout all of that I would dislike him, because that's not realistic. When there's been danger Kenny has always pulled his weight, and I didn't have to worry about him fucking up all the time despite his situation(unlike Ben or Nick). Getting drunk was irresponsible, but again I appreciate how much effort they've put into making his character as human as possible, it reminded me of the 5 stages of grief, specifically depression. Out of all the characters introduced, Kenny is the most human/realistic.
That comparison isn't valid because there's an issue of time.The only scenes we see of Christa is immediately after Omid is shot and she's sobbing, and saying "no" over and over again. And then there's a 2 year timeskip. Of course she's going to be more level headed and hardened after so long. So yes, Christa is reliable as far as we know after 2 years. We don't know what happened or how she dealt with those deaths in between. As I said previously we've always been witness to Kenny's grief immediately afterwards, when it's still fresh. He still manages to pull it together rather quickly if you ask me.
Those aren't reasons for his unreliability, because when push comes to shove, Kenny is able to step up. I know you keep vehemently denying it, but Kenny is in fact reliable.
From his pov, the world is fucking with him. That doesn't make him narcissistic, it makes him human like the rest of us. How many times must I have to say it is a normal and understandable reaction? When bad things happen, most of the time people think "why is this happening to me", or in his case "why is this happening to me again". Humans by nature are selfish, try as we may to be as selfless as possible, but at our core we are very selfish creatures. Let's put this in a real life situation that has probably happened to everyone at least once. It's just like when you have a bad day and you vent about it, and then someone says to you that you have no right to be sad/angry because there are starving kids in Africa. You're aware of that and it's terrible that they're suffering, you probably think at one point that you never said that your problems were more important than the kids in Africa, or anyone else's. On a scale of who has it worse, the starving children will win, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to be sad and have emotions like any other human being. Kenny being angry at the world doesn't mean he thinks it revolves around him, or that only bad things happen to him and nobody else. He is angry about what's happened to him and his loved ones, and he has every right to be. Kenny has never implied that's what he thinks, so that's obviously a personal opinion of yours. Frankly, I can't believe you don't understand this, being a human being yourself.
I personally worry all the time that Kenny will endanger everyone. His recklessness at the lodge, his recklessness in Carver’s truck where he insisted that the group punch people who have machine guns, his instigating a fight with Mike, one of the nicest people ever, in an area that was structurally unstable and infested with walkers (which he knew since he was sent there for fortification work).
And fair point with Christa, though I still admire her far more than I do Kenny because of how rational and not vindictive she is, though that’s another discussion.
And my concern is not how long Kenny is out of it following a tragedy. My problem is how much damage he is prone to cause during that time. He’s not like Sarah, who becomes catatonic, or Rebecca, who becomes angry but relatively harmless and sane. Kenny is a man who can’t handle things not going his way, and becomes violent and causes a lot of damage when something goes wrong for him. He’s the only one who completely loses his shit and panics after Vernon steals the boat, while the rest of the group quickly starts rethinking their plans. He lets himself get blinded by rage, to the point that he thinks he wants to murder Ben, even though it’s obvious that deep down he doesn’t want the kid dead (“I’m glad you were the one making that call and not me.”) He rants and raves at Clem and tells her incredibly hurtful things because of his pain, even though he doesn’t really mean any of it. The reason Kenny is unreliable is because his method to cope with disaster is to violently lash out and hurt everyone near him.
And I vehemently stand by my view that Kenny is unreliable because he is. He has excuses and justifications for his unreliable actions, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t unreliable. I know that he’s done good things, like saving Lee in episode 1. But a person being reliable sometimes and not reliable at other times does not make him an ultimately reliable person. That is the very definition of unreliable; you don’t know when you can count on him.
And I’ll clarify what I meant by the “world is fucking with me” mentality; my problem with Kenny is not that he believes the world is fucking with him, he believes that it is exclusively fucking with him. He never even considers the notion that maybe other people are suffering too until Ben rams that lesson down his throat. (“I never really thought about it that way…”)
And it’s not just Kenny I’m annoyed at. There are so many people on this forum defending Kenny’s actions by saying how much he’s suffered, completely ignoring how every other person in the entire game has suffered just like him, and plenty of them don’t do anything nearly as bad as Kenny.
In particular, I am baffled by people on this forum who actually give Clem shit for the 'calling Kenny an asshole’ scene by saying “Oh, she called him an asshole, what do you expect? Why should Kenny apologize after Clem just called him an asshole?” Um, so Kenny’s outburst at Clem is justified, but Clem isn’t allowed to call Kenny out on his hypocrisy? What?
I hope there is a choice to go off alone Jane-style
If everyone on the truck had been on board with Kenny's plan, it may have actually worked. The time spent arguing with him could've been spent untying each other's binds. He also didn't know if he and Sarita would be killed on point because they weren't apart of the original cabin group. Even the cabin group wasn't completely sure if Carver would kill them or not. He instigated a fight with Mike because he was pissed about the situation he was blindsided by. Not a smart idea, but we also only walked in on the end of the argument, so who knows what was said. Other than Sarita and Clem, who are both females and are proven to handle high stress situations with a more level head/be less confrontational, Kenny is the only man that's been dragged into this against his will. Of course he's going to be flipping out more in comparison to the cabin group who had already been at Carver's and knew what to expect. He was the leader of his group, a member of his group were killed by Carver, his shelter was taken from him, and he was kidnapped by that man as well. Because of another group's issues he had absolutely nothing to do with. The only reason he let them stay at the ski lodge was because Clem was with them.
You've just compared a grown man's reaction to tragedies with two women, one being a teenage emotionally unstable girl, and the other a heavily pregnant woman who has her unborn child to worry about if she flips out too much. Men and women react and deal with grief in different ways. So that argument doesn't really have much ground. He loses his shit because he thought they could trust Vernon, only to be screwed over. The boat at that point was the only way they had to safety. And Kenny wants to kill Ben because Ben just fucking told him that he is basically responsible for the deaths of his wife and child. Hell yeah, he wants to murder him. You just proved my point, Kenny first reacts in a blind rage, but soon after he processes the situation and can admit to his mistakes. If you let him think on it, he comes to terms and is able to bounce back. Albeit he's angrier, but that's just how Kenny is.
He's reliable, because when it's a life or death situation,(in season 1, this is determined by your choices though) Kenny doesn't stay in a corner brooding, he pulls himself together and fights back. That's what makes him reliable, because I know I can count on him to take down walkers and kill bad guys if need be. It's becoming clear that this is a matter of opinion, not fact.
It had been less than a day since he lost Duck and Katjaa right in front of his eyes mind you, so of course he's still focusing on his own problems. When Ben brought that up, he realized that he wasn't the only one suffering. I see that as a win for Kenny, he could have easily just brushed off Ben and said his pain was worse etc, but he didn't. He acknowledged and was sorry about it. Again, it is a perfectly human response to focus on your own grief and problems more than others. Kenny never went around saying that he's the only one suffering, and nobody understands. He just wallowed in his anger/depressions for a short while and eventually pulled himself out of it. The man is strong, no matter how you look at it.
I can't speak for every Kenny fan, but the one's I know aren't writing off other character's suffering, but are defending Kenny's because he is the one who is called out the most and who is given the most shit about everything he does or says. Again it's all about time. Yes, every character has suffered, but Kenny is the only one we've actually witness lose everything and then deal with that loss from start to finish. Other than Lilly, who reacted with anger like Kenny, but also with severe paranoia, and later ended up killing an innocent bystander then stealing your only vehicle depending on your choices. Two things that Kenny hasn't, and most likely would never do.
I have yet to come in contact with any Kenny fan who blames Clem, or is mad that she called him an asshole. So I can't really give any proper insight on that.
Even if it may have worked, “have everyone punch armed guards with machine guns” is an incredibly reckless plan. And my point was that Kenny’s recklessness has been a constant thing I have to worry about, whether or not the plan might have worked isn’t the issue. Besides, if Kenny didn’t know Carver’s crew was going to kill them, did he not realize that maybe rushing armed guards would be a pretty good way to provoke them into killing him?
Er, Mike didn’t start anything if that’s what you’re thinking. The one line we hear from him is “I’m trying to help you man!” To which Kenny responds that he refuses to do his work. Kenny, and Kenny alone, instigated that pointless and incredibly stupid fight, for little reason outside of a temper tantrum.
What does gender have anything to do with grief? I recall Lilly and Kenny coping with their losses in a remarkably similar way (blind rage and unwarranted blaming). Your claim just seems like an immense generalization to me. Are there studies done on this or something? You sound like you know what you’re talking about, so feel free to educate me. But keep in mind that even if there is some kind of consensus that "men are more likely to explode when in grief" doesn't actually mean all men are likely to explode when in grief. Just look at Vernon, Lee, and Doug.
Also, Lee and Omid trusted Vernon and didn’t lose their shit…
Now this is exactly what I have a problem with. I admire Kenny’s tenacity and ability to “bounce back”. What I don’t appreciate is how much damage Kenny can cause in the time before admitting his mistakes. If Kenny had had his way before his revelation in Episode 5, Ben would have died in Crawford, something that Kenny admits later he didn’t truly want. People don’t have the luxury of being allowed to “think on it” during such dire situations.
I don’t think it’s fair to cite determinate scenes where Kenny is reliable since you called me out before for citing determinant scenes where Kenny was clearly unreliable. If it’s a matter of opinion and not fact, probably better not to discuss it since that’s not gonna go anywhere :P
Once again, people don’t have the luxury of having some kind of constant advisor to call them out when they make mistakes. Kenny’s method of coping (blind rage) would have directly led to Ben’s death had Lee, a rational person, not been there to keep Kenny’s rage in check. And what happens if Ben dies? Kenny never realizes that he was in the wrong to want to murder Ben. No epiphany, all because Kenny allowed his anger to get the better of him. Kenny’s blind rage also led to him verbally abusing Clem, which is unavoidable.
And let's not even get into how Kenny's lack of self-control contributed directly to Brie's horrible and violent demise.
And yes, his death wish towards Ben was wrong for one big reason; he placed the entirety of the blame of Ben, disregarding how Kenny himself also played a huge role in his family's death by leaving Kat and Duck to fend for themselves during the bandit raid, and giving Kat absolutely no emotional support when she clearly needed him the most. Kenny at least played a part in his family's death, and his attempts to escape responsibility by pushing it all on Ben frankly disgusted me. Same deal with Sarita. He's partly to blame for the escape going to hell, he's the one who did not stay close to the woman he supposedly loved to protect her. He's not 100% to blame, but his assertion that "it's all [Clem's] fault" is pathetic.
He’s strong, yes. He’d have to be to make it this long. But we are not discussing Kenny’s strength. We are discussing his reliability. I will repeat my point; the sheer amount of damage Kenny is prone to cause whenever things go wrong is why he’s unreliable. When something goes wrong, I don’t think “Oh man, good thing Ken’s got my back!” I think “Oh shit, how’s Kenny gonna react to this bad news? Hope he doesn’t panic and yell at everyone and want to murder teenagers!” How long this period lasts is not my point.
And a choice quote from Kenneth: “The hell do you know, Clementine!?” – Kenny, if Clementine tells him that everyone is suffering.
He would have most definitely killed Ben had he been given the chance. He calmed down later, but as I said, my problem with Kenny is that whenever things go wrong for him, I have to babysit the guy to make sure he doesn’t put everyone at risk until he pulls himself back together.
Just know that such fans are out there, in this very forum. Immensely thankful you aren’t one of them.
good one mate
upvote 10/10
So because Luke is more introverted with his grief (rather than taking it out on others he supposedly cares about/loves), that means that Kenny is somehow the more emotionally sound one?
So much arguing I dont even fucking know who is better for her anymore...
Eats popcorn and watches the fight Best thread ever. 1000/10.
wow lol
Oh look, the Kenny fanboys are downvoting this thread into oblivion.
To be honest I'm not siding with Luke or Kenny I feel more like Bonnie, Mike and Clem are the only normal people in the group right now.
Here is how i see luke
He is a nice guy, is he reliable? Nope. Can you put your life in his hands, and expect him to be there for you when the time is needed? Nope.
what are you talking about, he doesn't agree to go with you to head to Vernon's, he goes with the group searching for Clementine after the boat was stolen.