Sacrificed his eye after pushing Clementine to do every dangerous chore of the plan, leaving her no options to refuse when she wanted to.
Sacrificing his eye is the least he could've done.
what are you talking about, he doesn't agree to go with you to head to Vernon's, he goes with the group searching for Clementine after the boat was stolen.
Here is how i see luke
He is a nice guy, is he reliable? Nope. Can you put your life in his hands, and expect him to be there for you whe… moren the time is needed? Nope.
* Luke drops clementine the first time meeting her, when he sees the dog bite.
* Luke locks her in a shed and doesn't do anything to help.
* Luke wants to lie to Walter about shooting Matthew,
* Luke goes off missing during the fight at the Ski Lodge
* Luke gets caught at Carver's camp (not saying that its his fault, but again he got caught proving a trend of unreliability.
* Luke abandons the group in the heard.
* Luke lets Nick a wounded man try to get help when he should of went in his place.
* Luke has sex with Jane instead of watching the perimeter, which causes the zombies to sneak up on the group which ultimately lead to Sarah being eaten.
Luke drops clementine the first time meeting her, when he sees the dog bite.
He thought she was bitten. nuff's said
**Luke locks her in a shed and doesn't do anything to help. **
He argues with the whole group to give her a chance of staying with them and living a bit more normally than locked in a shed, but the majority won.
Luke wants to lie to Walter about shooting Matthew,
He didn't trust Nick with that kind of information, he could have just messed up just like he did at the bridge.
** Luke goes off missing during the fight at the Ski Lodge**
Being caught by Carver would surely have been worse, he'd probably end up like Alvin.
Luke gets caught at Carver's camp (not saying that its his fault, but again he got caught proving a trend of unreliability.
Yeah, because it's super easy to avoid armed guards patrolling all over the place, hungry and sleepy as fuck.
Luke abandons the group in the heard.
Luke is the only one that cared for Sarah at that point and went for her rescue. Rebecca and Clementine panick, Kenny doesn't do shit and yet find some time to blame Clementine for Sarita's death.
Luke lets Nick a wounded man try to get help when he should of went in his place.
Jesus Christ, that's so dumb I'm not going to argue. You're just trying to find unfounded reasons.
Luke has sex with Jane instead of watching the perimeter, which causes the zombies to sneak up on the group which ultimately lead to Sarah being eaten.
Actually he isn't the only one to blame. Rebecca kept screaming as a dying goat, attracting the walkers, Kenny wasn't doing shit (don't tell me he was assisting Rebecca because he was just standing next to her doing NOTHING), Mike and Bonnie were the only ones doing something, also, Luke is a human. If it were Kenny he would surely have found a way to blame someone else for having sex. LOL
Here is how i see luke
He is a nice guy, is he reliable? Nope. Can you put your life in his hands, and expect him to be there for you whe… moren the time is needed? Nope.
* Luke drops clementine the first time meeting her, when he sees the dog bite.
* Luke locks her in a shed and doesn't do anything to help.
* Luke wants to lie to Walter about shooting Matthew,
* Luke goes off missing during the fight at the Ski Lodge
* Luke gets caught at Carver's camp (not saying that its his fault, but again he got caught proving a trend of unreliability.
* Luke abandons the group in the heard.
* Luke lets Nick a wounded man try to get help when he should of went in his place.
* Luke has sex with Jane instead of watching the perimeter, which causes the zombies to sneak up on the group which ultimately lead to Sarah being eaten.
Interesting. I'd hope that the writers of Season 2 are trying to critically present both 'types' as flawed and ultimately untrustworthy, but some people will love them no matter what.
He was understandably upset because his love just died. He then got over it and decided to help.
Luke messed up bad, got Sarah killed, couldn't even pay enough attention to tell that Rebecca was in no state to be carrying that baby, and has no particular justification to be acting such a jerk and making things unpleasant.
And no, I don't even particularly like Kenny, but between the two, Luke's much more unlikable and considering the extra Stress that Kenny's going through, he's doing pretty well.
(sorry for taking so long to reply, I was on mobile)
Kenny's plan was reckless, there's no doubt about that. I don't see not knowing whether or not Carver may kill them should make him less stressed about the situation or lead him to think that if he just stays calm they won't kill him. Out of everyone, Kenny had the most reason to be worried that they'll kill him, because he was the one shooting down members of Carver's crew. The rest of the cabin group also has a high chance of being killed, excluding Rebecca, because they ran away from Carver. They had machine guns, but if everyone was untied and ready to jump them, they would have the element of surprise and may have been able to disarm them. However, there is a high risk of injury if one of the guns go off, so it isn't exactly the most full proof plan. But given how easily Carver disposed of Kenny's group members, it makes sense that he's so sure they'll all be killed. He anticipates this, and refuses to go down without a fight.
I didn't mean to imply that Mike started the fight, all I'm saying is we have no idea what was said or how long they were speaking for. Mike may have said something that under normal circumstances wouldn't have provoked Kenny, but as I said before we don't know. Mike's been with Carver's group longer, he knows what to expect, and he probably just wanted to help Kenny out. But Kenny had just been kidnapped, and now he's being forced to do physical labor for some asshole who took his shelter, and killed his friend. It'd be pretty hard to stay calm in a situation like that.
Men and Women are similar, but also very different. This can be attributed to a multitude of reasons ranging from upbringing to social stimuli encountered on a daily basis. In addition to these factors, hormonal differences among males and females also provide an explanation for the difference in aggression levels between the sexes. Men are generally more aggressive than women, and are more likely to react violently in a high stress situation(such as grief) than women. But seeing as I'd rather not get into a scientific debate, I'll take gender out of the equation.
The reason why comparing Sarah and Rebecca's grief doesn't work is because one is a 15 year old teenager who just lost their only parent(Sarah). On top of that, this teenager has confirmed anxiety issues and is emotionally unstable. That teenager looked to Carlos to tell them what to do, to guide them through everything in life. When that anchor is taken away, the teenager becomes "catatonic" because they are lost and have absolutely no idea what to do or how to react. The teenager has not finished growing or developing, so this doesn't help much either.
The other is a person who is about to be a new parent(Rebecca). That person just lost their significant other, because a person outside their relationship believed the child to be theirs. As angry as that person is at the person who murdered their lover, that person has an unborn child to worry about, and knows they need to keep a level head in order not to impact the baby's development negatively. This person, unlike Kenny, is about to have a child that will depend on them, this person has something to live for.
Now Kenny, had a significant other and a child. It's Kenny's job to protect his son and wife, and early in season 1, Kenny is doing a fairly good job at it. Until Duck gets bit during an attack that nobody was able to anticipate(save for Ben maybe). The child is going to inevitably die, and the guilt and anger weighs heavily on Kenny who can't do anything to save the child that he vowed to protect at birth. Fast forward a bit, and Kenny is coming to terms with what must happen, his one comfort is that he still has Katjaa, and they can get through this tragedy together. Except Katjaa shoots herself in the head right in front of Kenny. Kenny now has nothing, and the one person he thought he could rely on just left him in the most gruesome way. Katjaa left Kenny by choice. Hence all the anger and depression that ensues later.
Lily does react similarly at first to Kenny, but her anger is significantly subdued compared to Kenny's. This boils down to personality differences, and the circumstances as to how the loved one was lost. Lily is a very brash, independent person, and other than her father, is barely able to stand the presence of other people(except children). Even when Larry is still around, Lily still is disconnected with everyone around her, and keeps her distance. Now Larry had a preexisting heart condition, and is also, well, old. It is also known that if he gets too worked up he can have a heart attack that can only be counteracted with a certain medication in the early stages of the heart attack. When Larry has the heart attack in the meat locker room, they have no access to these pills. Even if they did, it wouldn't help because Larry isn't in the early stages of a heart attack anymore. And contrary to popular belief, even if CPR revived Larry, it wouldn't stabilize him. The kind of equipment needed for that can only be found in a hospital. He might be responsive for a minute, but he'd just go back down again. So Larry was going to die either way. I believe that Lily knew this deep down, which explains why she was more passive aggressive, than as angry as Kenny. The similarities between their responses to grief end there, because Lily then becomes extremely paranoid, kills someone, and (can) steals your car. Katjaa was perfectly healthy and killed herself in front of Kenny and their somewhat conscious son. It could have been prevented, unlike Larry's death.
True, you can't always have somebody calling you out on your mistakes, and most of the time nobody needs that. But again, as I've said before, we are human, and it's not a terrible crime to not realize that someone else is hurting. especially if the tragedy is still new. Nor is it an unforgivable act to be reminded of it just one time. Kenny was definitely in the wrong with how he spoke to Clem, I'll give you that.
Brie's death was on her own hands. As insensitive as it sounds, the woman was supposed to be on the lookout for walkers, and allowed herself to be distracted by an argument. Ben had just told Kenny that it was his fault Katjaa and Duck died, it's not like he's going to say 5 seconds after hearing such a shocking confession " I understand that it was an accident Ben, I forgive you for indirectly causing my whole family to die.", or, "I'm going to kill you as soon as we get out of this pickle, we're cool for now, but as soon as we're safe, you're so dead." I don't think anyone possesses such impervious self control, I'd flip the fuck out too if someone told me that, no matter how dangerous of a situation we were in at the moment.
He placed the entirety of the blame on Ben, because Ben placed the entirety of the blame on himself. The way in which he told Kenny this conveys that it is all his fault. He doesn't skirt his responsibility, do you even listen to Kenny's dialogue? He says time and time again that he feels guilty for what has happened and not being able to do anything. Maybe Kenny should have been there for Katjaa more(and sorry for getting sciencey again), but it's actually proven that men usually isolate themselves and shut off from people in times of grief, and that women reach out to a support group and want to talk about their grief. They both were about to lose a child, and dealt with it in not the best ways. Obviously Kenny is still beating himself up about not knowing what Katjaa planned to do.
Also, Kenny only has influence on your decision to kill Ben if you want him too. He's not making you do anything. Did he want you to let the guy who just admitted to being the reason his family is dead die? Yes, he did. But that doesn't mean he's going to force you to do anything, you have a mind of your own. He tells you that you were right later anyhow, if you don't kill Ben.
Ben was a victim of of his own naivety, so it's hard to place all the blame on him, but you can't sit back and say that it's Kenny's fault that he wasn't next to Katjaa and Duck during the raid. As far as he was concerned, it was a normal day at the motel, how the hell is he supposed to know they're about to be attacked by cracked out bandits? When the bandits open fire, Kenny does his best to get to his family in time, but there is only so much he can do. This is also seen with Lee, who is separated from Clem. If Clem had been hurt would it have been his fault? No, it wouldn't have, because he had no control or foresight that something like that was going to happen. And with Sarita, they were in a middle of a damned herd of walkers. Everyone got separated, even though they actively tried to stick by each other. For pete's sake, give the guy a break.
I really think your exaggerating the damage he has so called done or is capable of doing. As I've said before, when Kenny is needed, or the group is in danger, he can fend for himself and doesn't need your help in dealing with adversaries. The way he reacts and how you react to him is a preference of personalities, and overall lack of knowledge as to how these personalities operate. As in my case, knowing how to deal with people who have these rough personalities, so not being bothered or surprised by their verbal outbursts, and knowing that they'll bounce back on their own.
Kenny was still in the midst of losing Sarita, and though it's put brashly, there is truth to his words. Clem doesn't know what it's like to lose a child, or a lover twice. One of them being because they killed themselves. Yes, she's lost people, but specifically to Kenny's situation, Clem doesn't know what it's like.
I doubt he would have killed Ben. Maybe beat the ever loving shit out of him to the point where he needs to be on bed rest for a day, but not kill him. You think you have to babysit him, but in reality you don't. The ones that needed to be watched constantly were Ben, Nick,(and now Luke to a certain degree) because they weren't to be trusted to function in life or death situations without freaking out. Kenny, despite being angry most of the time, can hold his own and has your back in the game more than once in fights.
It's a possibility. Until I see posts of that nature, I have nothing to say on that matter.
If everyone on the truck had been on board with Kenny's plan, it may have actually worked. The time spent arguing with him could've been spe… morent untying each other's binds. He also didn't know if he and Sarita would be killed on point because they weren't apart of the original cabin group. Even the cabin group wasn't completely sure if Carver would kill them or not. He instigated a fight with Mike because he was pissed about the situation he was blindsided by. Not a smart idea, but we also only walked in on the end of the argument, so who knows what was said. Other than Sarita and Clem, who are both females and are proven to handle high stress situations with a more level head/be less confrontational, Kenny is the only man that's been dragged into this against his will. Of course he's going to be flipping out more in comparison to the cabin group who had already been at Carver's and knew what to expect. He was the leader of his group which were… [view original content]
Luke drops clementine the first time meeting her, when he sees the dog bite
They have all struggled to live in the middle of a zombie apocalypse for two (?) years now. Paranoia is bound to exist, especially after everyone has lost friends and family because of what happens after you get bit. He drops her because he's startled from the bite he never noticed beforehand. They were really close to the cabin too, so it must have scared Luke to realize he almost let a bitten girl into the group again (Nick's mom had died as a result of this exact same thing).
Luke locks her in a shed and doesn't do anything to help.
Actually, he does. He and Pete argue a lot in favor of letting her out. Even though he has his own doubts about the legitimacy of her story (which is fair because Sam wasn't around when they found her, only the dead), he defends her and scolds the group for their behavior. He actually straight up tells them, "It probably is just a dog bite". If you choose to give him the sad eyes while appealing, he'll admit that he's already on her side. He reminds Carlos that she's "in bad shape", and the only reason why she was put into the shed anyway is because he was outvoted. None of them trusted her as much as he and Pete did, and their group clearly works as a "majority wins" kind of thing. Still, he continues to argue that they should fix her arm and apologize for being assholes if you listen to the kitchen conversation.
Luke wants to lie to Walter about shooting Matthew,
Not a morally good thing to do, no, but he did it out of protection for his friend and the rest of them. They don't know Walter or how he would react. Luke will agree that it's risky either way. The cabin group was already planning on leaving the next morning before Carver showed up, and he didn't want to get Nick murdered if Walter lost it.
Luke goes off missing during the fight at the Ski Lodge
We don't know the context of this but there's no way he could have done anything for them by barging in and getting himself captured too. People were dying on both sides either way and Kenny's plan of shooting wasn't working. And again, he chased after them for days without food or rest. He could have abandoned them but he chose not to.
Luke gets caught at Carver's camp (not saying that its his fault, but again he got caught proving a trend of unreliability.
A mistake on his part that he accepts blame for. He doesn't push the blame on anyone else. I love Kenny but he does this twice with Clementine.
Luke abandons the group in the heard.
To save and chase after Sarah. I agree he shouldn't have left them behind, but Kenny does too just because he's angry with her.
Luke lets Nick a wounded man try to get help when he should of went in his place.
Valid, but we don't know how the scene played out. Nick could have ran off anyway, in an attempt to prove his worth to the group (he's a good guy and doesn't like that others look at him like he's going crazy or is extra baggage). Luke was also injured as well.
Luke has sex with Jane instead of watching the perimeter, which causes the zombies to sneak up on the group which ultimately lead to Sarah being eaten.
Yeah, that was stupid of him. I have a whole analysis of why he acted like that, but it's not an excuse for it. This episode has a lot of negative moments for both Kenny and Luke.
But anyway, I hope you don't take offense to this! I like debating this and I just saw some points that I could counter. You're absolutely free to dislike Luke.
Here is how i see luke
He is a nice guy, is he reliable? Nope. Can you put your life in his hands, and expect him to be there for you whe… moren the time is needed? Nope.
* Luke drops clementine the first time meeting her, when he sees the dog bite.
* Luke locks her in a shed and doesn't do anything to help.
* Luke wants to lie to Walter about shooting Matthew,
* Luke goes off missing during the fight at the Ski Lodge
* Luke gets caught at Carver's camp (not saying that its his fault, but again he got caught proving a trend of unreliability.
* Luke abandons the group in the heard.
* Luke lets Nick a wounded man try to get help when he should of went in his place.
* Luke has sex with Jane instead of watching the perimeter, which causes the zombies to sneak up on the group which ultimately lead to Sarah being eaten.
So because Luke is more introverted with his grief (rather than taking it out on others he supposedly cares about/loves), that means that Kenny is somehow the more emotionally sound one?
It was no one's fault that Sarah died at the observation deck. And Luke WANTED Rebecca to rest, whereas Kenny was the one pushing everyone to leave. Why they couldn't have just had Bonnie and Mike scout ahead to the town for supplies while leaving Rebecca to rest is a plot-hole that the writers apparently didn't consider.
He was understandably upset because his love just died. He then got over it and decided to help.
Luke messed up bad, got Sarah killed, co… moreuldn't even pay enough attention to tell that Rebecca was in no state to be carrying that baby, and has no particular justification to be acting such a jerk and making things unpleasant.
And no, I don't even particularly like Kenny, but between the two, Luke's much more unlikable and considering the extra Stress that Kenny's going through, he's doing pretty well.
Yeah. At this point screw Luke and Kenny.
For me its
1) Bonnie/Mike
2) Try to somehow track Jane
3) Discern if Wellington is close… more enough to go alone
4) "None of the above, go live with the Raccoons"
Kenny and Luke aren't even options for me anymore.
Why can't people just stop hating Luke and Kenny blindly? They are both great characters, Kenny is not better than Luke, and Luke is not better than Kenny.
It's actually been proven that Vernon stole the boat in Shel's episode of 400 Days. Sorry in advance if you already know this, it's unclear in your comment if you do or not.
How is lying to Walter about Matthew a good idea? The man deserves to know how his partner was killed, and from what we learn about Walter before hand, he is a pretty level-headed/rational thinking guy. And not telling Nick because he can't be trusted with that information is pretty insulting to Nick, seeing as he's an adult. How old is he, 26? And he can't handle the consequences of his actions because Luke says so? Luke may have had good intentions, but it's disconcerting how much he disregards Nicks feelings on everything and always think he knows best for Nick, better than Nick does for himself.
Not running off doesn't mean he would've been captured by Carver. The last we see of Luke is when the group separates after fixing the wind turbine, he is seen going in the same direction as Kenny. He had a gun, and so did Kenny. Instead of getting spooked and leaving his group, he could have stayed behind and helped Kenny take out Carver's crew from a distance.
Another reason why running off by himself, and then chasing the truck on foot was an awful plan. It would have been safer if he just asked Clem to smuggle some food in with the walkie talkie.
Why is that "so dumb [you're] no even going to argue?" I think you're just saying that because you have no rebuttal to his claim. It's a perfectly reasonable question, Nick was shot, he was bleeding. How is it a good idea to send someone who is bleeding profusely, that's just a magnet for walkers. Luke had what, bruised ribs? And judging by how easily he snuck into Carver's base, he would've been much better at maneuvering around the walkers. Nick actually would've been the better choice to calm Sarah down, he understands and still feels the grief she is going through.
The woman is in labor. I'm guessing you don't know(or you lack the imagination?) what it feels like to have something the size of a watermelon forcing it's way through an opening no bigger than a lemon. It hurts like hell, why do you think men are so damn thankful they aren't the ones who have to give birth? Kenny was assisting her, he was trying to help her calm down and get her breathing under control. If you didn't know there are actual breathing exercises that pregnant women practice in advance for the birth, it helps keep them calm and deal with the pain. Kenny(and Mike, if you choose that option) then goes to stand between the walkers and the rest of the group so they have can get Rebecca to safety. Yes, he's human, but there is no reasonable excuse for what he did. Luke insisted on patrolling the perimeter, an extremely important job that involves everybody's safety. I get that he was sad, but he prioritized getting laid over doing his job. That is a major fuck up, and saying sorry doesn't fix it, especially because it can cause somebody to get killed. It wouldn't have been Kenny, because Kenny's not immature enough to get distracted by some tail while he's on watch.
Luke drops clementine the first time meeting her, when he sees the dog bite.
He thought she was bitten. nuff's said
**Luke loc… moreks her in a shed and doesn't do anything to help. **
He argues with the whole group to give her a chance of staying with them and living a bit more normally than locked in a shed, but the majority won.
Luke wants to lie to Walter about shooting Matthew,
He didn't trust Nick with that kind of information, he could have just messed up just like he did at the bridge.
** Luke goes off missing during the fight at the Ski Lodge**
Being caught by Carver would surely have been worse, he'd probably end up like Alvin.
Luke gets caught at Carver's camp (not saying that its his fault, but again he got caught proving a trend of unreliability.
Yeah, because it's super easy to avoid armed guards patrolling all over the place, hungry and sleepy as fuck.
Luke abandon… [view original content]
But anyway, I hope you don't take offense to this! I like debating this and I just saw some points that I could counter. You're absolutely free to dislike Luke.
I don't dislike Luke, i think he is a good guy, i just wouldn't trust him with my life. He has emotional problems, his fear of being bit sometimes i think clouds his judgement which makes him to do things i wouldn't do , like drop Clementine. Especially the whole sex thing was a huge mess up, which ultimately got Sarah killed.
Luke drops clementine the first time meeting her, when he sees the dog bite
They have all struggled to live in the middle of a zombi… moree apocalypse for two (?) years now. Paranoia is bound to exist, especially after everyone has lost friends and family because of what happens after you get bit. He drops her because he's startled from the bite he never noticed beforehand. They were really close to the cabin too, so it must have scared Luke to realize he almost let a bitten girl into the group again (Nick's mom had died as a result of this exact same thing).
Luke locks her in a shed and doesn't do anything to help.
Actually, he does. He and Pete argue a lot in favor of letting her out. Even though he has his own doubts about the legitimacy of her story (which is fair because Sam wasn't around when they found her, only the dead), he defends her and scolds the group for their behavior. He actually straight up tells them, "It pr… [view original content]
It's actually been proven that Vernon stole the boat in Shel's episode of 400 Days. Sorry in advance if you already know this, it's unclear in your comment if you do or not.
Wow... You nailed it man. I kind of like Kenny, but right now after reading this, I would totally choose Luke over Kenny. Though I'll be pretty broken up about his death if it happened.
Kenny explicitly tells a little girl, who he knows has gone through unspeakable traumas and has lost even more loved ones than he has that i… moret was all her fault that his girlfriend died and never apologizes (except in one very very specific dialogue choice).
He shoots one of Carver's soldiers even after Clem explicitly warns him against it, leading to Walter's senseless death. As Bonnie rightfully says, Carver only killed Walter because "he was protecting his people and Kenny could've killed [them] all."
He puts the entire group at risk by indulging in his murder porn torture fantasy even after everyone tells him several times to just shoot Carver so they can escape. He never acknowledges that said murder porn torture fantasy is the reason they wasted a half dozen precious minutes they could've used to escape, which led to them being caught by Troy, leading to another half dozen minutes wasted.
The group could've been long gone before… [view original content]
Only responding to a few of your points...
How is lying to Walter about Matthew a good idea? The man deserves to know how his partner was… more killed, and from what we learn about Walter before hand, he is a pretty level-headed/rational thinking guy. And not telling Nick because he can't be trusted with that information is pretty insulting to Nick, seeing as he's an adult. How old is he, 26? And he can't handle the consequences of his actions because Luke says so? Luke may have had good intentions, but it's disconcerting how much he disregards Nicks feelings on everything and always think he knows best for Nick, better than Nick does for himself.
Not running off doesn't mean he would've been captured by Carver. The last we see of Luke is when the group separates after fixing the wind turbine, he is seen going in the same direction as Kenny. He had a gun, and so did Kenny. Instead of getting spooked and leaving his group, he could have stayed… [view original content]
He says mean things to her and leaves her in the heard, cursing and blaming her.
If I remember well, Ben left Clementine to the walkers too in season 1 episode 4.
In your opinion he's not trustworthy. We are not discussing opinion, we are discussing fact.
I never said anything about surrendering, I said he should stay and fight. That is the complete opposite of surrendering. And no he didn't help rescue the group, he got himself captured after trying to steal some food.
What was she supposed to "hold against her head?" A piece of clothing that could be infested with bacteria and germs, and get her sicker than she already was? Or perhaps, a rock would've sufficed judging by your amazing logic. Another thing I'm sure your unaware of, seeing as you seem to know nothing about pregnancy or labor, is that is extremely difficult to move on your own without assistance. Which is why she's only able to move when Bonnie helps her. Both Kenny and Rebecca were waiting for Bonnie, Mike, and Clem to return. That's why they stayed put, also because they didn't know where the new shelter was. Kenny, as well as everyone else, was unaware that walkers were coming until Sarah points it out. Now your just grasping at straws, how the hell does Kenny leading Rebecca away to who knows where contribute to the destruction of the deck? That makes absolutely no sense.
Do you even know how to have a proper debate? As seen in your other comments to me, all you seem to be able to do is fling insults, and fabricate false information, along with crying "NO YOU'RE WRONG BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG." If your going to attempt to refute my claim, you have to back it up with clear and concrete evidence, not poorly constructed insults and opinions.
You're just proving my point. You are obviously a troll, why are you even here? What are you so angry about that you must take it out on other people online? Go ahead and call me a "fucking retard", or say that it's "bullshit". It's not going to change anything, or make you feel any better.
Why can't people just stop hating Luke and Kenny blindly? They are both great characters, Kenny is not better than Luke, and Luke is not better than Kenny.
Shooting at Carver's soldiers, he may not have anticipated retaliation. Plus Kenny's information on the situation was very low as it is. Strangers come to Cabin with Clem. More strangers come and hold everyone hostage at gunpoint and Luke flaked off.
And there's no guarantee that those few moments Kenny took to kill Carver would've saved everyone. It probably would've helped, but think about this.
Sure. Carver may have liked Clem. But what kind of example are you condoning and showing to your fellow survivors if the little girl is able to outsmart you? To outwit you, stop your scouting plan at a Cabin, get you shot and kill one of your men, backtalk to you or play you like a fiddle to earn your favor, and then outright defies your rules the very next day? He killed Reggie for lesser infractions. You know, that one armed guy whose only fuck-up as far as we know is not trimming up bushes properly?
So Kenny stepped up. The big macho man of the group, outright known as a rebel against Carver and not shy about it. And his ass got beaten down for taking responsibility for Clem's mistakes. He nearly died from the ordeal. Kenny snapped in some regard.
2 years of apocalypse, his family and his new family dying on him, he's half-blind, the world's gone to shit and he's lived most his life in probable comfort, his dreams and hopes are gone like everyone else's, and everyone is judging him, pressuring him, and think he's about to break. But even if he is, he helps birth Rebecca's Baby. That's what Kenny does under pressure. He helps.
Compared to Luke who decides to have sex at the worst possible moment. Even if it's understandable why.
Kenny explicitly tells a little girl, who he knows has gone through unspeakable traumas and has lost even more loved ones than he has that i… moret was all her fault that his girlfriend died and never apologizes (except in one very very specific dialogue choice).
He shoots one of Carver's soldiers even after Clem explicitly warns him against it, leading to Walter's senseless death. As Bonnie rightfully says, Carver only killed Walter because "he was protecting his people and Kenny could've killed [them] all."
He puts the entire group at risk by indulging in his murder porn torture fantasy even after everyone tells him several times to just shoot Carver so they can escape. He never acknowledges that said murder porn torture fantasy is the reason they wasted a half dozen precious minutes they could've used to escape, which led to them being caught by Troy, leading to another half dozen minutes wasted.
The group could've been long gone before… [view original content]
You're just proving my point. You are obviously a troll, why are you even here? What are you so angry about that you must take it out on oth… moreer people online? Go ahead and call me a "fucking retard", or say that it's "bullshit". It's not going to change anything, or make you feel any better.
Comments
Thanks, people are blinded by the devil known as LUKE! He eats children and farts in peoples mouths!
lol people are writing essays here instead of "comments".
WAKE UP PEOPLE IT'S JUST A GAME.
And Pete.
Sacrificed his eye after pushing Clementine to do every dangerous chore of the plan, leaving her no options to refuse when she wanted to.
Sacrificing his eye is the least he could've done.
They all think Vernon was the one that had stolen the boat, so yeah, he preferred to stay at the house doing NOTHING instead of helping Lee.
How about Luke and Kenny are cool and they have their good traits and bad traits.
lol
He thought she was bitten. nuff's said
He argues with the whole group to give her a chance of staying with them and living a bit more normally than locked in a shed, but the majority won.
He didn't trust Nick with that kind of information, he could have just messed up just like he did at the bridge.
Being caught by Carver would surely have been worse, he'd probably end up like Alvin.
Yeah, because it's super easy to avoid armed guards patrolling all over the place, hungry and sleepy as fuck.
Luke is the only one that cared for Sarah at that point and went for her rescue. Rebecca and Clementine panick, Kenny doesn't do shit and yet find some time to blame Clementine for Sarita's death.
Jesus Christ, that's so dumb I'm not going to argue. You're just trying to find unfounded reasons.
Actually he isn't the only one to blame. Rebecca kept screaming as a dying goat, attracting the walkers, Kenny wasn't doing shit (don't tell me he was assisting Rebecca because he was just standing next to her doing NOTHING), Mike and Bonnie were the only ones doing something, also, Luke is a human. If it were Kenny he would surely have found a way to blame someone else for having sex. LOL
Godly Kenny. Everything he says is set in stone and if you don't agree with him just once, he will damn you to Hell.
Can I side with Bonnie?
I think episode 4 was all about showing both Luke and Kenny with all their flaws, and intentionally leaving us to feel blah about both characters.
I agree
Yeah. At this point screw Luke and Kenny.
For me its
1) Bonnie/Mike
2) Try to somehow track Jane
3) Discern if Wellington is close enough to go alone
4) "None of the above, go live with the Raccoons"
Kenny and Luke aren't even options for me anymore.
"Yeah, f@@k you too"
He was understandably upset because his love just died. He then got over it and decided to help.
Luke messed up bad, got Sarah killed, couldn't even pay enough attention to tell that Rebecca was in no state to be carrying that baby, and has no particular justification to be acting such a jerk and making things unpleasant.
And no, I don't even particularly like Kenny, but between the two, Luke's much more unlikable and considering the extra Stress that Kenny's going through, he's doing pretty well.
(sorry for taking so long to reply, I was on mobile)
Kenny's plan was reckless, there's no doubt about that. I don't see not knowing whether or not Carver may kill them should make him less stressed about the situation or lead him to think that if he just stays calm they won't kill him. Out of everyone, Kenny had the most reason to be worried that they'll kill him, because he was the one shooting down members of Carver's crew. The rest of the cabin group also has a high chance of being killed, excluding Rebecca, because they ran away from Carver. They had machine guns, but if everyone was untied and ready to jump them, they would have the element of surprise and may have been able to disarm them. However, there is a high risk of injury if one of the guns go off, so it isn't exactly the most full proof plan. But given how easily Carver disposed of Kenny's group members, it makes sense that he's so sure they'll all be killed. He anticipates this, and refuses to go down without a fight.
I didn't mean to imply that Mike started the fight, all I'm saying is we have no idea what was said or how long they were speaking for. Mike may have said something that under normal circumstances wouldn't have provoked Kenny, but as I said before we don't know. Mike's been with Carver's group longer, he knows what to expect, and he probably just wanted to help Kenny out. But Kenny had just been kidnapped, and now he's being forced to do physical labor for some asshole who took his shelter, and killed his friend. It'd be pretty hard to stay calm in a situation like that.
Men and Women are similar, but also very different. This can be attributed to a multitude of reasons ranging from upbringing to social stimuli encountered on a daily basis. In addition to these factors, hormonal differences among males and females also provide an explanation for the difference in aggression levels between the sexes. Men are generally more aggressive than women, and are more likely to react violently in a high stress situation(such as grief) than women. But seeing as I'd rather not get into a scientific debate, I'll take gender out of the equation.
The reason why comparing Sarah and Rebecca's grief doesn't work is because one is a 15 year old teenager who just lost their only parent(Sarah). On top of that, this teenager has confirmed anxiety issues and is emotionally unstable. That teenager looked to Carlos to tell them what to do, to guide them through everything in life. When that anchor is taken away, the teenager becomes "catatonic" because they are lost and have absolutely no idea what to do or how to react. The teenager has not finished growing or developing, so this doesn't help much either.
The other is a person who is about to be a new parent(Rebecca). That person just lost their significant other, because a person outside their relationship believed the child to be theirs. As angry as that person is at the person who murdered their lover, that person has an unborn child to worry about, and knows they need to keep a level head in order not to impact the baby's development negatively. This person, unlike Kenny, is about to have a child that will depend on them, this person has something to live for.
Now Kenny, had a significant other and a child. It's Kenny's job to protect his son and wife, and early in season 1, Kenny is doing a fairly good job at it. Until Duck gets bit during an attack that nobody was able to anticipate(save for Ben maybe). The child is going to inevitably die, and the guilt and anger weighs heavily on Kenny who can't do anything to save the child that he vowed to protect at birth. Fast forward a bit, and Kenny is coming to terms with what must happen, his one comfort is that he still has Katjaa, and they can get through this tragedy together. Except Katjaa shoots herself in the head right in front of Kenny. Kenny now has nothing, and the one person he thought he could rely on just left him in the most gruesome way. Katjaa left Kenny by choice. Hence all the anger and depression that ensues later.
Lily does react similarly at first to Kenny, but her anger is significantly subdued compared to Kenny's. This boils down to personality differences, and the circumstances as to how the loved one was lost. Lily is a very brash, independent person, and other than her father, is barely able to stand the presence of other people(except children). Even when Larry is still around, Lily still is disconnected with everyone around her, and keeps her distance. Now Larry had a preexisting heart condition, and is also, well, old. It is also known that if he gets too worked up he can have a heart attack that can only be counteracted with a certain medication in the early stages of the heart attack. When Larry has the heart attack in the meat locker room, they have no access to these pills. Even if they did, it wouldn't help because Larry isn't in the early stages of a heart attack anymore. And contrary to popular belief, even if CPR revived Larry, it wouldn't stabilize him. The kind of equipment needed for that can only be found in a hospital. He might be responsive for a minute, but he'd just go back down again. So Larry was going to die either way. I believe that Lily knew this deep down, which explains why she was more passive aggressive, than as angry as Kenny. The similarities between their responses to grief end there, because Lily then becomes extremely paranoid, kills someone, and (can) steals your car. Katjaa was perfectly healthy and killed herself in front of Kenny and their somewhat conscious son. It could have been prevented, unlike Larry's death.
True, you can't always have somebody calling you out on your mistakes, and most of the time nobody needs that. But again, as I've said before, we are human, and it's not a terrible crime to not realize that someone else is hurting. especially if the tragedy is still new. Nor is it an unforgivable act to be reminded of it just one time. Kenny was definitely in the wrong with how he spoke to Clem, I'll give you that.
Brie's death was on her own hands. As insensitive as it sounds, the woman was supposed to be on the lookout for walkers, and allowed herself to be distracted by an argument. Ben had just told Kenny that it was his fault Katjaa and Duck died, it's not like he's going to say 5 seconds after hearing such a shocking confession " I understand that it was an accident Ben, I forgive you for indirectly causing my whole family to die.", or, "I'm going to kill you as soon as we get out of this pickle, we're cool for now, but as soon as we're safe, you're so dead." I don't think anyone possesses such impervious self control, I'd flip the fuck out too if someone told me that, no matter how dangerous of a situation we were in at the moment.
He placed the entirety of the blame on Ben, because Ben placed the entirety of the blame on himself. The way in which he told Kenny this conveys that it is all his fault. He doesn't skirt his responsibility, do you even listen to Kenny's dialogue? He says time and time again that he feels guilty for what has happened and not being able to do anything. Maybe Kenny should have been there for Katjaa more(and sorry for getting sciencey again), but it's actually proven that men usually isolate themselves and shut off from people in times of grief, and that women reach out to a support group and want to talk about their grief. They both were about to lose a child, and dealt with it in not the best ways. Obviously Kenny is still beating himself up about not knowing what Katjaa planned to do.
Also, Kenny only has influence on your decision to kill Ben if you want him too. He's not making you do anything. Did he want you to let the guy who just admitted to being the reason his family is dead die? Yes, he did. But that doesn't mean he's going to force you to do anything, you have a mind of your own. He tells you that you were right later anyhow, if you don't kill Ben.
Ben was a victim of of his own naivety, so it's hard to place all the blame on him, but you can't sit back and say that it's Kenny's fault that he wasn't next to Katjaa and Duck during the raid. As far as he was concerned, it was a normal day at the motel, how the hell is he supposed to know they're about to be attacked by cracked out bandits? When the bandits open fire, Kenny does his best to get to his family in time, but there is only so much he can do. This is also seen with Lee, who is separated from Clem. If Clem had been hurt would it have been his fault? No, it wouldn't have, because he had no control or foresight that something like that was going to happen. And with Sarita, they were in a middle of a damned herd of walkers. Everyone got separated, even though they actively tried to stick by each other. For pete's sake, give the guy a break.
I really think your exaggerating the damage he has so called done or is capable of doing. As I've said before, when Kenny is needed, or the group is in danger, he can fend for himself and doesn't need your help in dealing with adversaries. The way he reacts and how you react to him is a preference of personalities, and overall lack of knowledge as to how these personalities operate. As in my case, knowing how to deal with people who have these rough personalities, so not being bothered or surprised by their verbal outbursts, and knowing that they'll bounce back on their own.
Kenny was still in the midst of losing Sarita, and though it's put brashly, there is truth to his words. Clem doesn't know what it's like to lose a child, or a lover twice. One of them being because they killed themselves. Yes, she's lost people, but specifically to Kenny's situation, Clem doesn't know what it's like.
I doubt he would have killed Ben. Maybe beat the ever loving shit out of him to the point where he needs to be on bed rest for a day, but not kill him. You think you have to babysit him, but in reality you don't. The ones that needed to be watched constantly were Ben, Nick,(and now Luke to a certain degree) because they weren't to be trusted to function in life or death situations without freaking out. Kenny, despite being angry most of the time, can hold his own and has your back in the game more than once in fights.
It's a possibility. Until I see posts of that nature, I have nothing to say on that matter.
They have all struggled to live in the middle of a zombie apocalypse for two (?) years now. Paranoia is bound to exist, especially after everyone has lost friends and family because of what happens after you get bit. He drops her because he's startled from the bite he never noticed beforehand. They were really close to the cabin too, so it must have scared Luke to realize he almost let a bitten girl into the group again (Nick's mom had died as a result of this exact same thing).
Actually, he does. He and Pete argue a lot in favor of letting her out. Even though he has his own doubts about the legitimacy of her story (which is fair because Sam wasn't around when they found her, only the dead), he defends her and scolds the group for their behavior. He actually straight up tells them, "It probably is just a dog bite". If you choose to give him the sad eyes while appealing, he'll admit that he's already on her side. He reminds Carlos that she's "in bad shape", and the only reason why she was put into the shed anyway is because he was outvoted. None of them trusted her as much as he and Pete did, and their group clearly works as a "majority wins" kind of thing. Still, he continues to argue that they should fix her arm and apologize for being assholes if you listen to the kitchen conversation.
Not a morally good thing to do, no, but he did it out of protection for his friend and the rest of them. They don't know Walter or how he would react. Luke will agree that it's risky either way. The cabin group was already planning on leaving the next morning before Carver showed up, and he didn't want to get Nick murdered if Walter lost it.
We don't know the context of this but there's no way he could have done anything for them by barging in and getting himself captured too. People were dying on both sides either way and Kenny's plan of shooting wasn't working. And again, he chased after them for days without food or rest. He could have abandoned them but he chose not to.
A mistake on his part that he accepts blame for. He doesn't push the blame on anyone else. I love Kenny but he does this twice with Clementine.
To save and chase after Sarah. I agree he shouldn't have left them behind, but Kenny does too just because he's angry with her.
Valid, but we don't know how the scene played out. Nick could have ran off anyway, in an attempt to prove his worth to the group (he's a good guy and doesn't like that others look at him like he's going crazy or is extra baggage). Luke was also injured as well.
Yeah, that was stupid of him. I have a whole analysis of why he acted like that, but it's not an excuse for it. This episode has a lot of negative moments for both Kenny and Luke.
But anyway, I hope you don't take offense to this! I like debating this and I just saw some points that I could counter. You're absolutely free to dislike Luke.
Well it all depends on your perspective on the character. They each care about the group, but they've each done something to endanger the group.
It was no one's fault that Sarah died at the observation deck. And Luke WANTED Rebecca to rest, whereas Kenny was the one pushing everyone to leave. Why they couldn't have just had Bonnie and Mike scout ahead to the town for supplies while leaving Rebecca to rest is a plot-hole that the writers apparently didn't consider.
Or ..
5) Take Mike with you and eat the shit out of raccoons.
I had to
Why can't people just stop hating Luke and Kenny blindly? They are both great characters, Kenny is not better than Luke, and Luke is not better than Kenny.
It's actually been proven that Vernon stole the boat in Shel's episode of 400 Days. Sorry in advance if you already know this, it's unclear in your comment if you do or not.
Only responding to a few of your points...
How is lying to Walter about Matthew a good idea? The man deserves to know how his partner was killed, and from what we learn about Walter before hand, he is a pretty level-headed/rational thinking guy. And not telling Nick because he can't be trusted with that information is pretty insulting to Nick, seeing as he's an adult. How old is he, 26? And he can't handle the consequences of his actions because Luke says so? Luke may have had good intentions, but it's disconcerting how much he disregards Nicks feelings on everything and always think he knows best for Nick, better than Nick does for himself.
Not running off doesn't mean he would've been captured by Carver. The last we see of Luke is when the group separates after fixing the wind turbine, he is seen going in the same direction as Kenny. He had a gun, and so did Kenny. Instead of getting spooked and leaving his group, he could have stayed behind and helped Kenny take out Carver's crew from a distance.
Another reason why running off by himself, and then chasing the truck on foot was an awful plan. It would have been safer if he just asked Clem to smuggle some food in with the walkie talkie.
Why is that "so dumb [you're] no even going to argue?" I think you're just saying that because you have no rebuttal to his claim. It's a perfectly reasonable question, Nick was shot, he was bleeding. How is it a good idea to send someone who is bleeding profusely, that's just a magnet for walkers. Luke had what, bruised ribs? And judging by how easily he snuck into Carver's base, he would've been much better at maneuvering around the walkers. Nick actually would've been the better choice to calm Sarah down, he understands and still feels the grief she is going through.
The woman is in labor. I'm guessing you don't know(or you lack the imagination?) what it feels like to have something the size of a watermelon forcing it's way through an opening no bigger than a lemon. It hurts like hell, why do you think men are so damn thankful they aren't the ones who have to give birth? Kenny was assisting her, he was trying to help her calm down and get her breathing under control. If you didn't know there are actual breathing exercises that pregnant women practice in advance for the birth, it helps keep them calm and deal with the pain. Kenny(and Mike, if you choose that option) then goes to stand between the walkers and the rest of the group so they have can get Rebecca to safety. Yes, he's human, but there is no reasonable excuse for what he did. Luke insisted on patrolling the perimeter, an extremely important job that involves everybody's safety. I get that he was sad, but he prioritized getting laid over doing his job. That is a major fuck up, and saying sorry doesn't fix it, especially because it can cause somebody to get killed. It wouldn't have been Kenny, because Kenny's not immature enough to get distracted by some tail while he's on watch.
I don't dislike Luke, i think he is a good guy, i just wouldn't trust him with my life. He has emotional problems, his fear of being bit sometimes i think clouds his judgement which makes him to do things i wouldn't do , like drop Clementine. Especially the whole sex thing was a huge mess up, which ultimately got Sarah killed.
[removed]
Wow... You nailed it man. I kind of like Kenny, but right now after reading this, I would totally choose Luke over Kenny. Though I'll be pretty broken up about his death if it happened.
[removed]
He says mean things to her and leaves her in the heard, cursing and blaming her.
If I remember well, Ben left Clementine to the walkers too in season 1 episode 4.
IHaveBeenConverted
Wow. Uncalled for, much?
And do you have the ability to read? You say nothing of the sort in the comment I specifically replied to.
LUKE FOREVERETT
That's bullshit
That's bullshit
In your opinion he's not trustworthy. We are not discussing opinion, we are discussing fact.
I never said anything about surrendering, I said he should stay and fight. That is the complete opposite of surrendering. And no he didn't help rescue the group, he got himself captured after trying to steal some food.
What was she supposed to "hold against her head?" A piece of clothing that could be infested with bacteria and germs, and get her sicker than she already was? Or perhaps, a rock would've sufficed judging by your amazing logic. Another thing I'm sure your unaware of, seeing as you seem to know nothing about pregnancy or labor, is that is extremely difficult to move on your own without assistance. Which is why she's only able to move when Bonnie helps her. Both Kenny and Rebecca were waiting for Bonnie, Mike, and Clem to return. That's why they stayed put, also because they didn't know where the new shelter was. Kenny, as well as everyone else, was unaware that walkers were coming until Sarah points it out. Now your just grasping at straws, how the hell does Kenny leading Rebecca away to who knows where contribute to the destruction of the deck? That makes absolutely no sense.
Do you even know how to have a proper debate? As seen in your other comments to me, all you seem to be able to do is fling insults, and fabricate false information, along with crying "NO YOU'RE WRONG BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG." If your going to attempt to refute my claim, you have to back it up with clear and concrete evidence, not poorly constructed insults and opinions.
You're just proving my point. You are obviously a troll, why are you even here? What are you so angry about that you must take it out on other people online? Go ahead and call me a "fucking retard", or say that it's "bullshit". It's not going to change anything, or make you feel any better.
One is a wreckless moron and another one's losing it. Ah stuff it, I'll go alone.
I'll upvote this. I like both of'em.
I dunno about this precisely.
Shooting at Carver's soldiers, he may not have anticipated retaliation. Plus Kenny's information on the situation was very low as it is. Strangers come to Cabin with Clem. More strangers come and hold everyone hostage at gunpoint and Luke flaked off.
And there's no guarantee that those few moments Kenny took to kill Carver would've saved everyone. It probably would've helped, but think about this.
Sure. Carver may have liked Clem. But what kind of example are you condoning and showing to your fellow survivors if the little girl is able to outsmart you? To outwit you, stop your scouting plan at a Cabin, get you shot and kill one of your men, backtalk to you or play you like a fiddle to earn your favor, and then outright defies your rules the very next day? He killed Reggie for lesser infractions. You know, that one armed guy whose only fuck-up as far as we know is not trimming up bushes properly?
So Kenny stepped up. The big macho man of the group, outright known as a rebel against Carver and not shy about it. And his ass got beaten down for taking responsibility for Clem's mistakes. He nearly died from the ordeal. Kenny snapped in some regard.
2 years of apocalypse, his family and his new family dying on him, he's half-blind, the world's gone to shit and he's lived most his life in probable comfort, his dreams and hopes are gone like everyone else's, and everyone is judging him, pressuring him, and think he's about to break. But even if he is, he helps birth Rebecca's Baby. That's what Kenny does under pressure. He helps.
Compared to Luke who decides to have sex at the worst possible moment. Even if it's understandable why.
How am I even proving your point? What's your point after all?
You're the one who keeps saying shit in this thread.