Lee, Kenny and Christa never committed suicide which I think is one of the worst choices in real life. So yeah, Jane was such a coward bitch for killing herself.
Great, so we can at least agree that Jane was selfish and Kenny was a maybe not so terrible guardian after all.
I can agree to the f… moreact that Jane's suicide was a selfish thing to do and that yes, maybe Kenny wasn't that bad a guardian. I overlooked the fact that he kept them alive for two years. But I don't think we should overlook the fact that he put them in a very dangerous situation on the scene we see in Season 3, that could've gotten both of them killed.
Attacking a woman that you truly believe killed an infant is not the same as killing innocents based on religious delusions or voices in your head. And it isn't like he just randomly assumed Jane killed him for no reason, she left both Sarah and her own sister to die. She had a history of this sort of thing.
It's not as grave, sure, but it's still wrong. Do you ever wonder if Kenny had just... talked? Jane would get exposed and proven wrong. He'd have a rightful re… [view original content]
Um you know father figure is a very liberally used term. E.g. for a coach in relation to his team, for teachers in relation to their students, for elder brothers in relation to their younger siblings, etc. It's not that far of a stretch to call Kenny Clementine's father figure, not in every playthrough that is. Lee was that as well. Christa (female version) probably too.
You..you think Kenny is Clementine's 'father figure'? Not only that but always her father figure? Since when is this a thing? I've never seen this before, nor dialogue that implies it.
Jane was a character who, when we first saw her, we immediately expected to like her, and she wasn't all that bad at first. I soon enough realized that maybe she wasn't meant to be liked, but sympathized as just another victim of the zombie apocalypse. And sure, the story of her sister and the way she saw Clem was Telltale once again saying, "this is another person who has experienced loss", and at that point it was safe to assume that she was unstable and would eventually do something stupid - and she showed that, numerous times; having sex with Luke (at least, that's how I interpreted it) and provoking Kenny. She may have loved Clem, but her actions were reckless and made her one of the worst characters in the series.
That's not a fault on Jane's character, that's a fault on the piss poor, inconsistent writing because the writers don't know what the fuck they're doing.
I think she feels her and Clementine are equal, they've just alive. She's not looking after Clem and she never has, she has been one to pass off advice to Clem to help her survive but never saw herself as a guardian figure. Although i'd rather her than Kenny.
At least she isn't an ill-tempered murderer who's actions indirectly cause multiple deaths.. Larry, Walter & Alvin. Let's not forget the time he hinted for Lee to drop Ben to his death and also ran away when Lee was under the door in episode 3.
I prefer to see the two of them as partners more than having Jane being some sort of guardian or parental figure, which also brings up some of my favourite quotes from season 2:
"So, c'mon, partner. Let's go check out that deck. I like the height."
"Partner?"
"Don't let it get to your head. Let's go."
Jane doesn't see Clem as someone needing to be looked after, but more as an equal, a fellow survivor, and ultimately a friend. She doesn't really treat her like anything less than that.
Yes, I know that she ultimately committed suicide in the end, and that it's probably added a lot of fuel to the fire against her character, but I think that calling her the "worst guardian ever" is a bit much, and isn't really what Jane was trying to do in the first place, I think. Hell, if anything, the only guardian aspect I can see is Clem taking care of AJ, since she seemed to be better at that sort of thing, anyways.
Is she even a guardian?
I think she feels her and Clementine are equal, they've just alive. She's not looking after Clem and she never ha… mores, she has been one to pass off advice to Clem to help her survive but never saw herself as a guardian figure. Although i'd rather her than Kenny.
At least she isn't an ill-tempered murderer who's actions indirectly cause multiple deaths.. Larry, Walter & Alvin. Let's not forget the time he hinted for Lee to drop Ben to his death and also ran away when Lee was under the door in episode 3.
I Agree. She abandoned her own sister, tries to get you to abandon Sarah twice, and says she should have abandoned Clementine "a few times now" in No Going Back. Plus she manipulates Clem into to killing a broken man by taking away one of the last things that keep him going. It should have been obvious that she wasn't trustworthy or reliable.
Holy shit storm. My thumb feels sore scrolling through first page comments so I feel any further exploration of this thread may leave it badly bruised and strained
Holy shit storm. My thumb feels sore scrolling through first page comments so I feel any further exploration of this thread may leave it badly bruised and strained
Oh man IronWoodLover, seriously? For the lolz?? I really hope this was a "lol" moment from you yourself??
Kenny urges Clementine to drive at high velocity in an icy road and then leaves her unattended. What in the actual fuck. Face-fucking-palm. How fucking reckless can you be?? Obviously, the situation ended up in a car crash, and if it was realistic, Clem and AJ would've ended up in a way worse condition, if not dead.
Whoa whoa whoa hold up? High velocity? First of all do you know how fast a manual car can go in third gear? It's actually not that fast, certainly not enough to go through a windshield. I'm no expert but i am pretty sure on this. It's not much faster than the 25 miles an hour the car was doing previouslyAlso was the road really as icy as you are saying? There wasn't enough info to me to suggest she lost control of the car due to ice. Also after the crash, the vehicle is veered over to the left, yet Kenny was over to the right. How? Terrible writing if you ask me. All of it.
Say what you want, but Jane ending her own life did not directly endanger Clementine.
Unfortunately, VengefulKenny beat me to it. This is not true at all. The office door was ajar when she hung herself, the noose could have easily snapped whilst she was swinging away on there, could find her way out and kill Clem and AJ in their sleep. That was totally inconsiderate of her and very much put them in danger.
Key-word: directly
That makes it all right does it? Point is it was still dangerous.
was Clementine dependent on Jane's life? No.
I'd say she needed her yes, she told Javier the only reason she joined the NF is because she had no one, was on her own for so long. I think Clem needed someone with her. Also the fact that she would no doubt struggle caring for AJ herself. You could also say she needed a woman around when she went through her period, something which obviously would have been totally new to her. I could think of many reasons as to why she needed her.
Jane left her in a safe place, with a greenhouse and supplies, her suicide would not change that.
But it did change that. Sadly as usual Telltale kept us in the dark as to why she left. Cheers Telltale, good job!
Sigh. I am clearly the bias one. Why did Kenny kill Jane?
Despite not having evidence, in his mind he had a reason to do what he did through assumption. What would you be thinking if a person you don't like or trust turns up without the baby you care about and tells you "He's...he's" or whatever she acted out before saying it was an accident which is basically admitting that AJ was dead? Even if it wasn't true, that was enough for Kenny to believe she was lying and I really can't blame him for reacting the way he did. As i said so many times, it would have all been avoided had she not done what she did. You said it was monstrous what Kenny did to her yet Jane was also trying to kill him, the proof being how she willingly charged towards him as he was backing off, along with the threat about him that she determinantely told Clem beforehand and just because SHE failed in killing him, she's not monstrous at all right but Kenny is?
She technically would have murdered AJ btw in the sense that Kenny and Clem wouldn't have found him had he not cried. Like VengefulKenny said, he always had a reason when killing someone though. He certainly never did it for fun or because he's a serial killer or whatever else some people view him as.
Hm, really? All I remember Kenny doing after he murders Jane was chanting on how terrible she was, how he was justified, how he was "protecting us" by killing her, and on, and on, and on. That does not smell like regret.
Actually he says:
which sounded like regret to me. Why would he say to Clem that he can't trust himself to keep you safe anymore?:
That right there admits that he regrets what he did, knowing that he can be dangerous around them (not to them). I also wish to add that in my own opinion that what he says here:
to me is Kenny admitting how sorry and regretful he is after everything he put Clem through and had her witness, even during their season 1 time. But people can assume what they want here.
Sorry for the rant, i know I said you and i wouldn't discuss this again about Jane/Kenny but damn it just gets to me sometimes. I know you feel the same way but different. I hope I haven't come across too strong.
Great, so we can at least agree that Jane was selfish and Kenny was a maybe not so terrible guardian after all.
I can agree to the f… moreact that Jane's suicide was a selfish thing to do and that yes, maybe Kenny wasn't that bad a guardian. I overlooked the fact that he kept them alive for two years. But I don't think we should overlook the fact that he put them in a very dangerous situation on the scene we see in Season 3, that could've gotten both of them killed.
Attacking a woman that you truly believe killed an infant is not the same as killing innocents based on religious delusions or voices in your head. And it isn't like he just randomly assumed Jane killed him for no reason, she left both Sarah and her own sister to die. She had a history of this sort of thing.
It's not as grave, sure, but it's still wrong. Do you ever wonder if Kenny had just... talked? Jane would get exposed and proven wrong. He'd have a rightful re… [view original content]
About Jane's sister, I don't really think it's fair to criticize her for that. Jane did everything she could for as long as she could for someone who didn't appreciate it and didn't even want to live.
I Agree. She abandoned her own sister, tries to get you to abandon Sarah twice, and says she should have abandoned Clementine "a few times n… moreow" in No Going Back. Plus she manipulates Clem into to killing a broken man by taking away one of the last things that keep him going. It should have been obvious that she wasn't trustworthy or reliable.
You know what, its easy to say one thing or the other about Jaime because we didn't know her. Maybe Jane let her die, maybe Jaime went along with it, maybe they just got separated--we don't know cause we weren't there. Really, the issue is the fact that Jane was willing to do that to her own sister and more or less takes it out on everyone else who mildly inconveniences her.
About Jane's sister, I don't really think it's fair to criticize her for that. Jane did everything she could for as long as she could for someone who didn't appreciate it and didn't even want to live.
Maybe so. But since he's clearly a guy who was gradually losing it as a result of losing his real family (and Lee), its safe to assume that he truly believed that and thus retained that virtue.
Oh man IronWoodLover, seriously? For the lolz?? I really hope this was a "lol" moment from you yourself??
Ok, I will make this more evident: That statement was meant to be a sarcastic joke (I hope you realize that's why I struck the text in the first place). I was hyperbolizing what really happened - Kenny attacked Jane based on an assumption, something immaterial, not a fact which I jokingly referred to as "the lolz"/for the laughs. I believe I've made it clear in past discussions with you that I do not believe that Kenny killed/tried to kill Jane because he's a sadistic asshole who wants to see blood running, but because he was being an irrational ass.
Whoa whoa whoa hold up? High velocity? First of all do you know how fast a manual car can go in third gear? It's actually not that fast, certainly not enough to go through a windshield. I'm no expert but I am pretty sure on this. It's not much faster than the 25 miles an hour the car was doing previously
I've never driven a car before, I'm just judging the scenario from what I saw: the background was looping pretty fast. Say what you want, but whatever velocity Clementine was in, it was enough to cause a really dangerous accident. That is a fact.
Also was the road really as icy as you are saying? There wasn't enough info to me to suggest she lost control of the car due to ice.
I assumed it was due to ice since I cannot find any other fathomable explanation. I mean a car just doesn't simply trip on a straight road, does it? And since we didn't hear/see the tire explode what else could've made the car crash?
Unfortunately, VengefulKenny beat me to it. This is not true at all. The office door was ajar when she hung herself, the noose could have easily snapped whilst she was swinging away on there, could find her way out and kill Clem and AJ in their sleep. That was totally inconsiderate of her and very much put them in danger.
Alright then. I won't deny a simple truth like that.
That makes it all right does it? Point is it was still dangerous.
No, I never said it made it alright. I said that unlike Kenny or Edith Jane's suicide never resulted in something that directly put Clem into danger.
I'd say she needed her yes, she told Javier the only reason she joined the NF is because she had no one, was on her own for so long. I think Clem needed someone with her. Also the fact that she would no doubt struggle caring for AJ herself. You could also say she needed a woman around when she went through her period, something which obviously would have been totally new to her. I could think of many reasons as to why she needed her.
She didn't need her for sure since she keeps herself alive without her. Jane, sooner or later, would end up being a burden on Clementine due to her pregnancy. Clementine would be left in charge of taking care of AJ and pregnant Jane. Since Jane would lose much of her agility, Clementine would have to find medical supplies, hunt for the three of them and do pretty much all the hard work there had to be done in Howe's all by herself. If there was ever a walker evasion she would have to be the one dealing with it. As sick as this might sound, Jane's death might've ended up helping Clementine on the long run when you put that against not recieving help dealing with her period.
(I'm not by any means saying that what Jane did was right. What she did was disgusting and selfish. I'm just looking at the situation from a pragmatic and practical prespective.)
Despite not having evidence, in his mind he had a reason to do what he did through assumption.
This I know.
What would you be thinking if a person you don't like or trust turns up without the baby you care about and tells you "He's...he's" or whatever she acted out before saying it was an accident which is basically admitting that AJ was dead?
Besides being saddened, I would try to clear things out with said person. How did the baby die? When did it happen? Was there any chance that it might still be alive? And finally, since I didn't trust such person, I would ask for them to show me where it happened, to confirm they were saying the truth.
What I would not do is outright assume the person - who clearly looks shaken up about the baby dying - just murdered a baby in cold blood without any evidence. I would try to look outside my personal mistrust for the person, and actually be sure before acting out on it.
Even if it wasn't true, that was enough for Kenny to believe she was lying and I really can't blame him for reacting the way he did.
So you think he shouldn't be held accountable for murdering a woman for a crime he had no proof she committed? You think his actions do not deserve being dispised?
As i said so many times, it would have all been avoided had she not done what she did.
As I said many times before, that is completely true. Just remember that had Kenny not done what he did, and it would also all be avoided. He would stay on the right, and I would've sided with him. But he did what he did: he tried to murder someone and that cannot be trivialized, even in the apocalypse.
You said it was monstrous what Kenny did to her yet Jane was also trying to kill him, the proof being how she willingly charged towards him as he was backing off, along with the threat about him that she determinantely told Clem beforehand and just because SHE failed in killing him, she's not monstrous at all right but Kenny is?
You forget to mention that seconds after that happens she offers for the fight to end - which Kenny obviously refuses indicating that he intended to keep the fight up.
Unlike Kenny that was the one who actually started it, Jane tried to stop the fight many times before being forced to retaliate. Not to mention that she warns him that if he got near her she would retaliate. I believe she lost her cool when she charged at Kenny, yes, but I don't believe she premeditated his death. Moments after charging at him out of frustration at his persistence of keeping the fight up, she then has his pinned on the ground (while she's gouging his eyes). If she wanted him dead, why didn't she reach for her knife who has in her reach and just stab him with it? Why does she always choose to just hurt him instead (punching him after he pins her on the glass door and the eye gouging).
She technically would have murdered AJ btw in the sense that Kenny and Clem wouldn't have found him had he not cried.
Murder is when you premeditate someone's death. Jane never intended for AJ to die and she obviously wasn't planning on dying either.
Like VengefulKenny said, he always had a reason when killing someone though. He certainly never did it for fun or because he's a serial killer or whatever else some people view him as.
Terrorists have reasons for blowing people up and that does not make it ok.
Actually he says: "Hey, listen. I didn't want that to happen." which sounded like regret to me.
To me it sounds just like petty lying. If he didn't want that to happen why did he attack then?
The fact that he proceeds to demonize Jane after that statement also doesn't put him in a favourable light.
Why would he say to Clem that he can't trust himself to keep you safe anymore?: / That right there admits that he regrets what he did, knowing that he can be dangerous around them (not to them). to me is Kenny admitting how sorry and regretful he is after everything he put Clem through and had her witness, even during their season 1 time. But people can assume what they want here.
But specifically about murdering Jane. Bring me something that specifically shows him feeling sorry for what happened to Jane and I'll consider your point that he feels bad and guilty for what happened. This statements are too vague and can mean a million other things, that he feels sorry for smashing Larry's head in front of her, letting her get captured by the Stranger, elbowing her, killing Carver, or even put her through the apocalypse.
It's just that him trying to justify himself and immediately starting to demonize Jane after he kills her kinda has me believing that he believes his actions had an actually rational and good justification.
I do appreciate the fact that he recognizes he is dangerous at times, though.
(I really wished we had the option to bring Jane up in his S3 flashback like we have the option to bring up Kenny with Jane. I believe he would look regretful, but since Telltale didn't add that, I'll never actually know).
when he's not murdering people for the lolz...
Oh man IronWoodLover, seriously? For the lolz?? I really hope this was a "lol" moment… more from you yourself??
Kenny urges Clementine to drive at high velocity in an icy road and then leaves her unattended. What in the actual fuck. Face-fucking-palm. How fucking reckless can you be?? Obviously, the situation ended up in a car crash, and if it was realistic, Clem and AJ would've ended up in a way worse condition, if not dead.
Whoa whoa whoa hold up? High velocity? First of all do you know how fast a manual car can go in third gear? It's actually not that fast, certainly not enough to go through a windshield. I'm no expert but i am pretty sure on this. It's not much faster than the 25 miles an hour the car was doing previouslyAlso was the road really as icy as you are saying? There wasn't enough info to me to suggest she lost control of the car due to ice. Also after the crash, the… [view original content]
Ok, I will make this more evident: That statement was meant to be a sarcastic joke (I hope you realize that's why I struck the text in the first place). I was hyperbolizing what really happened - Kenny attacked Jane based on an assumption, something immaterial, not a fact which I jokingly referred to as "the lolz"/for the laughs. I believe I've made it clear in past discussions with you that I do not believe that Kenny killed/tried to kill Jane because he's a sadistic asshole who wants to see blood running, but because he was being an irrational ass.
Oh i thought when you said that, you meant he killed for lolz on anyone else he had previously killed. Fine.
I've never driven a car before, I'm just judging the scenario from what I saw: the background was looping pretty fast. Say what you want, but whatever velocity Clementine was in, it was enough to cause a really dangerous accident. That is a fact.
Yes ok. I actually put it down to bad writing to be fair. The scene was just awfully done in every way.
I assumed it was due to ice since I cannot find any other fathomable explanation. I mean a car just doesn't simply trip on a straight road, does it? And since we didn't hear/see the tire explode what else could've made the car crash?
Yes again it was made very unclear by Telltale. The first thing i tried to work out was what caused the crash and there was just no indication of there being anything, so again bad writing.
She didn't need her for sure since she keeps herself alive without her. Jane, sooner or later, would end up being a burden on Clementine due to her pregnancy. Clementine would be left in charge of taking care of AJ andpregnant Jane. Since Jane would lose much of her agility, Clementine would have to find medical supplies, hunt for the three of them and do pretty much all the hard work there had to be done in Howe's all by herself. If there was ever a walker evasion she would have to be the one dealing with it. As sick as this might sound, Jane's death might've ended up helping Clementine on the long run when you put that against not recieving help dealing with her period.
Ok fair point.
So you think he shouldn't be held accountable for murdering a woman for a crime he had no proof she committed? You think his actions do not deserve being dispised?
You know from our previous conversations that i have never said he shouldn't be held accountable for what he did. I've been unbiased and said he was in the wrong for ultimately doing what he did but what i am saying is, from his point of view i totally get it and why he went mad.
i would try to clear things out with said person. How did the baby die? When did it happen? Was there any chance that it might still be alive? And finally, since I didn't trust such person, I would ask for them to show me where it happened, to confirm they were saying the truth.
But if you didn't trust them in the first place, why would you even attempt to ask those questions when you aren't going to believe them anyway? If you've lost trust with someone or don't like them and think that they are dangerous (which Kenny obviously believed), taking into account their desperate situation being stranded at a rest stop, that too in my opinion comes into play about how they wouldn't calmly discuss what's happened. He'd just argued in the car with the woman, both exchanging heated words, that was obviously still at the back of his mind, he also took into consideration the way she was previously earlier in the episode and leaving the group in ep4 and making it seem like she didn't want the baby around. All this was building up to why he just lost it with her because he cared about the baby so much. I don't agree with how it went down but I understand why he reacted that way.
Just remember that had Kenny not done what he did, and it would also all be avoided.
Yes but again, what he did wouldn't have even happened if Jane hadn't done what she did lol, full circle again. They were both wrong and you and i know that.
But he did what he did: he tried to murder someone and that cannot be trivialized, even in the apocalypse.
Your right it can't be trivialised, but as i said she tried to kill him too.
You forget to mention that seconds after that happens she offers for the fight to end - which Kenny obviously refuses indicating that he intended to keep the fight up.
Um? She offers to end the fight? You mean when she tells Kenny to go and he refuses? Then why didn't she herself back off instead of charging at him? She intended to keep the fight up just as much. She didn't sheathe her knife then did she?
Jane tried to stop the fight many times before being forced to retaliate.
She wasn't being forced to retaliate when she charged at him though lol.
Not to mention that she warns him that if he got near her she would retaliate.
But i disagree because i feel given her plan was to make Clem aware (although i feel she already was) about Kenny, she made it cleverly seem that she was being the good guy, sheathing her knife and saying the things she did hoping he'd attack her as she knew he would. I'm saying that people are always going to look at this differently. I believe she had intentions from the start to get him out of the way. Even if she wasn't intending to actually "kill" him, she wanted him out of the way by leaving or prepared to kill him if necessary which she showed in the fight.
Moments after charging at him out of frustration at his persistence of keeping the fight up
Again you say only he was keeping the fight up, yet why did she not back down instead of charge at him? She had the knife, she had the upper hand, she didn't need to carry on the fight for that reason but she kept it going as well because she wanted to.
she then has his pinned on the ground (while she's gouging his eyes). If she wanted him dead, why didn't she reach for her knife who has in her reach and just stab him with it?
It actually wasn't in her reach if you watch the scene again because Kenny was nearest the knife and naturally stopped him from grabbing it so raked at his eyes first. Hey if he lost both eyes, he couldn't find the knife right? Lol. Doing that to him though and saying "how does that feel huh?" again to me sounds like she was also enjoying what she was doing. She was no angel in the fight either.
Why does she always choose to just hurt him instead (punching him after he pins her on the glass door and the eye gouging).
To roughen him up? Also again to show Clem how "innocent" she was (sarcasm) that by not making it look like she was going to kill him. Do we really know for sure Kenny was wanting to kill Jane BEFORE it got personal when she slashed him with the knife? Was their any indication that he wanted to kill her and not just hurt her before they got outside of the rest stop? It would make a lot more sense that it became a fight to the death after the knife slashing rather than before it happened.
Murder is when you premeditate someone's death. Jane never intended for AJ to die and she obviously wasn't planning on dying either.
Sorry murder was the wrong word, manslaughter i should have said. Although what if she left AJ in there and then had he not cried, would she have told Clem the truth of his whereabouts? Or just left. Would she have left the baby to die because she couldn't bring herself to kill a baby so this was the easiest way?
"Calm down princess" in advance lol i was just brainstorming. Even I don't think she would have done that but it's always a possibility.
Terrorists have reasons for blowing people up and that does not make it ok.
IWL (IronWoodLover) give me some credit dude! I never said it was ok killing people etc. I was merely saying that there was always a reason for when he did kill and not just killing someone out of the blue or because he felt like it.
To me it sounds just like petty lying. If he didn't want that to happen why did he attack then?
When has Kenny ever lied in either game IWL? I don't think it was a lie. I genuinely believe that when he got mad and attacked Jane (inside the rest stop), i think that he only intended to hurt her to get the frustration out but then it became more serious after she had slashed him and then charging at him which at that point he knew it was a live or die situation. I don't think he wanted it to happen. He didn't want to do anything to her before she made it seem like he was dead. Kenny would have probably coped and lived with her being around but Jane wanted him out of the picture dead or alive.
Sorry Iron i know you will probably bombard me with a reply to this but this is why we have opinions dude!
The fact that he proceeds to demonize Jane after that statement also doesn't put him in a favourable light.
Demonise? You mean when he said "i thought she killed Alvie Clem, and at any point she could have stopped what was happening by saying he was fine. She wanted a fight", which was completely 100% true. Unless you are referring to when he called her nuts and disturbed who had her own agenda and looking out for herself? Well sorry to annoy you but this is also true and it's not demonising her! To hide a baby in a freezing car and make it seem like he'd died just to enrage an already suffering person is nuts and it is disturbing. Even if her intentions were for someone else to see how angry he can get, even if she did it for her, she still had her own agenda because it was a stupid plan she cooked up which meant shit if the baby had died of the cold or walkers found a way in through the gap in the window or ultimately dying without revealing the truth. She wanted Kenny out of the way dead or alive and i just wish Telltale gave players the chance to have chosen dialogue to answer a question i would have liked Jane to ask her before the ending scene which was "will you come with me Clem or stay with Kenny". That would have been so much better than that whole scene.
But specifically about murdering Jane. Bring me something that specifically shows him feeling sorry for what happened to Jane and I'll consider your point that he feels bad and guilty for what happened.
IWL he'd just killed Jane, obviously that was running through his head, to me it was obvious that he realised that he went too far which is why he says he can't trust himself to keep them safe anymore. That in itself admits it right there that he was feeling guilty.Just because he didn't get on his knees, cry and say "oh im so so sorry Clem, i can't believe i did this" would have been out of character even for him.
This statements are too vague and can mean a million other things that he feels sorry for smashing Larry's head in front of her, letting her get captured by the Stranger, elbowing her, killing Carver, or even put her through the apocalypse. It's just that him trying to justify himself
Well that's just your opinion obviously but to me that is what i think the statement "people won't have to look at you and feel ashamed at what they've put you through" means that he is ashamed at every bad thing he has done in the past. He wouldn't have said it if he didn't mean it. Kenny has never lied about anything to anyone, it's one of the main reasons i always stood by him. Honesty and loyalty is more important to me above all else especially if I were living in a ruined world such as that. Even if he could be a handful to deal with at times, i always trusted him. I didn't trust Jane and i didn't trust anyone else in season 2. I just wished Omid and Christa had more of a role.
and immediately starting to demonize Jane after he kills her kinda has me believing that he believes his actions had an actually rational and good justification.
I already said above why he wasn't demonising her in my opinion and again my above comment about the Wellington statement to me is good enough to show his regret at everything bad he had previously done. I felt then he knows that those actions were not always good/justified or else he wouldn't have said it.
I do appreciate the fact that he recognizes he is dangerous at times, though.
My point exactly.
(I really wished we had the option to bring Jane up in his S3 flashback like we have the option to bring up Kenny with Jane. I believe he would look regretful, but since Telltale didn't add that, I'll never actually know).
Oh me too man! There are so many fucking things i would change about that shit! They have wasted so much and really shit on the S1 and 2 fans. You have no idea how angry i still am with Telltale and I will never forgive them for it.
Oh man IronWoodLover, seriously? For the lolz?? I really hope this was a "lol" moment from you yourself??
Ok, I will make this more … moreevident: That statement was meant to be a sarcastic joke (I hope you realize that's why I struck the text in the first place). I was hyperbolizing what really happened - Kenny attacked Jane based on an assumption, something immaterial, not a fact which I jokingly referred to as "the lolz"/for the laughs. I believe I've made it clear in past discussions with you that I do not believe that Kenny killed/tried to kill Jane because he's a sadistic asshole who wants to see blood running, but because he was being an irrational ass.
Whoa whoa whoa hold up? High velocity? First of all do you know how fast a manual car can go in third gear? It's actually not that fast, certainly not enough to go through a windshield. I'm no expert but I am pretty sure on this. It's not much faster than the 25 miles an hour th… [view original content]
Your sarcasm and immaturity is unbecoming of you, and I don't appreciate your condescension one single bit either. You have a good day, I said my piece.
Between deciding to stay with Kenny or stay with Jane, Kenny can trust Clementine with AJ, also given the fact that Clementine could hold on her own. As for Jane, sure she could stay with Clementine but IF Clementine didn't survive S2, Jane would've left AJ to die even if as a baby, so either being pregnant or not, she would've killed herself by any means.
I believe that the "worst guardian ever" award belongs to Stranger, hands down. Jane realized that she can't handle shit anymore and she kills herself. She lost her sister because the latter gave up, damaging Jane mentally to an extensive degree. Stranger lost his family because he acted like Ben or worse, people. Sure both are mad, trying to use Clem as a substitute for their lost ones, but guess who is madder. Stranger. Jane could work with the rest of the (shit) group, unlike Kenny. Stranger declares jihad to Lee's group and wants Lee dead even if he didn't steal.
Jane was just a broken person. She was crushed by the demons she was dealing with. Having a baby, Luke's baby, was the final nail in her coffin. Perhaps, if Sarah could survive a bit longer, Kenny could listen to logic, maybe she could recover gradually. In the end she was alone, almost, constantly being reminded of all the pain she endured.
I believe that the "worst guardian ever" award belongs to Stranger, hands down. Jane realized that she can't handle shit anymore and she kil… morels herself. She lost her sister because the latter gave up, damaging Jane mentally to an extensive degree. Stranger lost his family because he acted like Ben or worse, people. Sure both are mad, trying to use Clem as a substitute for their lost ones, but guess who is madder. Stranger. Jane could work with the rest of the (shit) group, unlike Kenny. Stranger declares jihad to Lee's group and wants Lee dead even if he didn't steal.
Jane was just a broken person. She was crushed by the demons she was dealing with. Having a baby, Luke's baby, was the final nail in her coffin. Perhaps, if Sarah could survive a bit longer, Kenny could listen to logic, maybe she could recover gradually. In the end she was alone, almost, constantly being reminded of all the pain she endured.
Okay I am not jane's fan but how jane was trying to kill aj by puting him in a car, do you have an Objective evidence for that, when i look to it I see it like aj the one who gets ppl killed or hurt when he is in a car, clem puted him in a car in the flashback, dose that mean she Was trying to kill him?
How natasha died because of jane?
Because Jane wanted to(and determinately succeeds in) have Clementine steal her medicine from Arvo, which would've opened her up to the same problem that started off the Observation Deck defense. So as a result of threatening Arvo and sending him off defenseless, the Russian Group comes looking for her to get even and she just so happened to have snuck off hours/days beforehand. This lead to the group getting ambushed because he recognized Clementine, Rebecca turning in the middle of a tense standoff that caused Clementine/Kenny to fire the first shot, and Natasha ended up being the first casualty despite simply wanting Arvo's stuff back and trying to stop the shootout from happening.
Okay I am not jane's fan but how jane was trying to kill aj by puting him in a car, do you have an Objective evidence for that, when i look … moreto it I see it like aj the one who gets ppl killed or hurt when he is in a car, clem puted him in a car in the flashback, dose that mean she Was trying to kill him?
How natasha died because of jane?
Okay I am not jane's fan but how jane was trying to kill aj by puting him in a car, do you have an Objective evidence for that, when i look … moreto it I see it like aj the one who gets ppl killed or hurt when he is in a car, clem puted him in a car in the flashback, dose that mean she Was trying to kill him?
How natasha died because of jane?
Honestly, I hate her after that season 2 ending. You don't put a helpless crying baby in danger just to prove a point to a mentally unstable man. Kenny needed help, not to be put to the test - I honestly cannot understand how so many people think it was justified to kill Kenny because he wasn't doing good mentally and might freak out, like, think about what that man has been though?
Honestly I just love Lee a lot and with Kenny being my only connection to him, I wanted to keep him as close to me as I could for as long as I could. Imagine there being no one in the entire world who knows what you've been through and who knew your family, than one lil' old crazy man. You'd protect him.
Comments
Not to mention Christa went through pregnancy with only a little girl, presumably still born, and managed to recover and heal from the process.
She toughed it out and survived.
Kenny "died" due to terrible writing in a non canon game, so did Jane.
Um you know father figure is a very liberally used term. E.g. for a coach in relation to his team, for teachers in relation to their students, for elder brothers in relation to their younger siblings, etc. It's not that far of a stretch to call Kenny Clementine's father figure, not in every playthrough that is. Lee was that as well. Christa (female version) probably too.
Jane was a character who, when we first saw her, we immediately expected to like her, and she wasn't all that bad at first. I soon enough realized that maybe she wasn't meant to be liked, but sympathized as just another victim of the zombie apocalypse. And sure, the story of her sister and the way she saw Clem was Telltale once again saying, "this is another person who has experienced loss", and at that point it was safe to assume that she was unstable and would eventually do something stupid - and she showed that, numerous times; having sex with Luke (at least, that's how I interpreted it) and provoking Kenny. She may have loved Clem, but her actions were reckless and made her one of the worst characters in the series.
Alright then
i was being sarcastic.
Not counting anything in those horrid flashbacks as something that actually happened. As far as I'm concerned this is some alternate reality
Is she even a guardian?
I think she feels her and Clementine are equal, they've just alive. She's not looking after Clem and she never has, she has been one to pass off advice to Clem to help her survive but never saw herself as a guardian figure. Although i'd rather her than Kenny.
At least she isn't an ill-tempered murderer who's actions indirectly cause multiple deaths.. Larry, Walter & Alvin. Let's not forget the time he hinted for Lee to drop Ben to his death and also ran away when Lee was under the door in episode 3.
I prefer to see the two of them as partners more than having Jane being some sort of guardian or parental figure, which also brings up some of my favourite quotes from season 2:
"So, c'mon, partner. Let's go check out that deck. I like the height."
"Partner?"
"Don't let it get to your head. Let's go."
Jane doesn't see Clem as someone needing to be looked after, but more as an equal, a fellow survivor, and ultimately a friend. She doesn't really treat her like anything less than that.
Yes, I know that she ultimately committed suicide in the end, and that it's probably added a lot of fuel to the fire against her character, but I think that calling her the "worst guardian ever" is a bit much, and isn't really what Jane was trying to do in the first place, I think. Hell, if anything, the only guardian aspect I can see is Clem taking care of AJ, since she seemed to be better at that sort of thing, anyways.
Guardians of
the GalaxyClementine: The Telltale Series: starring Lee, Kenny, Christa, Luke, and JaneSorry, my avatar sometimes gets the best out of me.
no worries, dude.
Well, you probably got at least one word right.
I Agree. She abandoned her own sister, tries to get you to abandon Sarah twice, and says she should have abandoned Clementine "a few times now" in No Going Back. Plus she manipulates Clem into to killing a broken man by taking away one of the last things that keep him going. It should have been obvious that she wasn't trustworthy or reliable.
Holy shit storm. My thumb feels sore scrolling through first page comments so I feel any further exploration of this thread may leave it badly bruised and strained
Get on desktop then, :^).
Oh man IronWoodLover, seriously? For the lolz?? I really hope this was a "lol" moment from you yourself??
Whoa whoa whoa hold up? High velocity? First of all do you know how fast a manual car can go in third gear? It's actually not that fast, certainly not enough to go through a windshield. I'm no expert but i am pretty sure on this. It's not much faster than the 25 miles an hour the car was doing previouslyAlso was the road really as icy as you are saying? There wasn't enough info to me to suggest she lost control of the car due to ice. Also after the crash, the vehicle is veered over to the left, yet Kenny was over to the right. How? Terrible writing if you ask me. All of it.
Unfortunately, VengefulKenny beat me to it. This is not true at all. The office door was ajar when she hung herself, the noose could have easily snapped whilst she was swinging away on there, could find her way out and kill Clem and AJ in their sleep. That was totally inconsiderate of her and very much put them in danger.
That makes it all right does it? Point is it was still dangerous.
I'd say she needed her yes, she told Javier the only reason she joined the NF is because she had no one, was on her own for so long. I think Clem needed someone with her. Also the fact that she would no doubt struggle caring for AJ herself. You could also say she needed a woman around when she went through her period, something which obviously would have been totally new to her. I could think of many reasons as to why she needed her.
But it did change that. Sadly as usual Telltale kept us in the dark as to why she left. Cheers Telltale, good job!
Despite not having evidence, in his mind he had a reason to do what he did through assumption. What would you be thinking if a person you don't like or trust turns up without the baby you care about and tells you "He's...he's" or whatever she acted out before saying it was an accident which is basically admitting that AJ was dead? Even if it wasn't true, that was enough for Kenny to believe she was lying and I really can't blame him for reacting the way he did. As i said so many times, it would have all been avoided had she not done what she did. You said it was monstrous what Kenny did to her yet Jane was also trying to kill him, the proof being how she willingly charged towards him as he was backing off, along with the threat about him that she determinantely told Clem beforehand and just because SHE failed in killing him, she's not monstrous at all right but Kenny is?
She technically would have murdered AJ btw in the sense that Kenny and Clem wouldn't have found him had he not cried. Like VengefulKenny said, he always had a reason when killing someone though. He certainly never did it for fun or because he's a serial killer or whatever else some people view him as.
Actually he says:
which sounded like regret to me. Why would he say to Clem that he can't trust himself to keep you safe anymore?:
That right there admits that he regrets what he did, knowing that he can be dangerous around them (not to them). I also wish to add that in my own opinion that what he says here:
to me is Kenny admitting how sorry and regretful he is after everything he put Clem through and had her witness, even during their season 1 time. But people can assume what they want here.
Sorry for the rant, i know I said you and i wouldn't discuss this again about Jane/Kenny but damn it just gets to me sometimes. I know you feel the same way but different. I hope I haven't come across too strong.
About Jane's sister, I don't really think it's fair to criticize her for that. Jane did everything she could for as long as she could for someone who didn't appreciate it and didn't even want to live.
You know what, its easy to say one thing or the other about Jaime because we didn't know her. Maybe Jane let her die, maybe Jaime went along with it, maybe they just got separated--we don't know cause we weren't there. Really, the issue is the fact that Jane was willing to do that to her own sister and more or less takes it out on everyone else who mildly inconveniences her.
Maybe so. But since he's clearly a guy who was gradually losing it as a result of losing his real family (and Lee), its safe to assume that he truly believed that and thus retained that virtue.
Ok, I will make this more evident: That statement was meant to be a sarcastic joke (I hope you realize that's why I struck the text in the first place). I was hyperbolizing what really happened - Kenny attacked Jane based on an assumption, something immaterial, not a fact which I jokingly referred to as "the lolz"/for the laughs. I believe I've made it clear in past discussions with you that I do not believe that Kenny killed/tried to kill Jane because he's a sadistic asshole who wants to see blood running, but because he was being an irrational ass.
I've never driven a car before, I'm just judging the scenario from what I saw: the background was looping pretty fast. Say what you want, but whatever velocity Clementine was in, it was enough to cause a really dangerous accident. That is a fact.
I assumed it was due to ice since I cannot find any other fathomable explanation. I mean a car just doesn't simply trip on a straight road, does it? And since we didn't hear/see the tire explode what else could've made the car crash?
Alright then. I won't deny a simple truth like that.
No, I never said it made it alright. I said that unlike Kenny or Edith Jane's suicide never resulted in something that directly put Clem into danger.
She didn't need her for sure since she keeps herself alive without her. Jane, sooner or later, would end up being a burden on Clementine due to her pregnancy. Clementine would be left in charge of taking care of AJ and pregnant Jane. Since Jane would lose much of her agility, Clementine would have to find medical supplies, hunt for the three of them and do pretty much all the hard work there had to be done in Howe's all by herself. If there was ever a walker evasion she would have to be the one dealing with it. As sick as this might sound, Jane's death might've ended up helping Clementine on the long run when you put that against not recieving help dealing with her period.
(I'm not by any means saying that what Jane did was right. What she did was disgusting and selfish. I'm just looking at the situation from a pragmatic and practical prespective.)
This I know.
Besides being saddened, I would try to clear things out with said person. How did the baby die? When did it happen? Was there any chance that it might still be alive? And finally, since I didn't trust such person, I would ask for them to show me where it happened, to confirm they were saying the truth.
What I would not do is outright assume the person - who clearly looks shaken up about the baby dying - just murdered a baby in cold blood without any evidence. I would try to look outside my personal mistrust for the person, and actually be sure before acting out on it.
So you think he shouldn't be held accountable for murdering a woman for a crime he had no proof she committed? You think his actions do not deserve being dispised?
As I said many times before, that is completely true. Just remember that had Kenny not done what he did, and it would also all be avoided. He would stay on the right, and I would've sided with him. But he did what he did: he tried to murder someone and that cannot be trivialized, even in the apocalypse.
You forget to mention that seconds after that happens she offers for the fight to end - which Kenny obviously refuses indicating that he intended to keep the fight up.
Unlike Kenny that was the one who actually started it, Jane tried to stop the fight many times before being forced to retaliate. Not to mention that she warns him that if he got near her she would retaliate. I believe she lost her cool when she charged at Kenny, yes, but I don't believe she premeditated his death. Moments after charging at him out of frustration at his persistence of keeping the fight up, she then has his pinned on the ground (while she's gouging his eyes). If she wanted him dead, why didn't she reach for her knife who has in her reach and just stab him with it? Why does she always choose to just hurt him instead (punching him after he pins her on the glass door and the eye gouging).
Murder is when you premeditate someone's death. Jane never intended for AJ to die and she obviously wasn't planning on dying either.
Terrorists have reasons for blowing people up and that does not make it ok.
To me it sounds just like petty lying. If he didn't want that to happen why did he attack then?
The fact that he proceeds to demonize Jane after that statement also doesn't put him in a favourable light.
But specifically about murdering Jane. Bring me something that specifically shows him feeling sorry for what happened to Jane and I'll consider your point that he feels bad and guilty for what happened. This statements are too vague and can mean a million other things, that he feels sorry for smashing Larry's head in front of her, letting her get captured by the Stranger, elbowing her, killing Carver, or even put her through the apocalypse.
It's just that him trying to justify himself and immediately starting to demonize Jane after he kills her kinda has me believing that he believes his actions had an actually rational and good justification.
I do appreciate the fact that he recognizes he is dangerous at times, though.
(I really wished we had the option to bring Jane up in his S3 flashback like we have the option to bring up Kenny with Jane. I believe he would look regretful, but since Telltale didn't add that, I'll never actually know).
I'm sorry but I cannot unsee Kenny's spazzy model and fat Jane...
I just can't...
Oh i thought when you said that, you meant he killed for lolz on anyone else he had previously killed. Fine.
Yes ok. I actually put it down to bad writing to be fair. The scene was just awfully done in every way.
Yes again it was made very unclear by Telltale. The first thing i tried to work out was what caused the crash and there was just no indication of there being anything, so again bad writing.
Ok fair point.
You know from our previous conversations that i have never said he shouldn't be held accountable for what he did. I've been unbiased and said he was in the wrong for ultimately doing what he did but what i am saying is, from his point of view i totally get it and why he went mad.
But if you didn't trust them in the first place, why would you even attempt to ask those questions when you aren't going to believe them anyway? If you've lost trust with someone or don't like them and think that they are dangerous (which Kenny obviously believed), taking into account their desperate situation being stranded at a rest stop, that too in my opinion comes into play about how they wouldn't calmly discuss what's happened. He'd just argued in the car with the woman, both exchanging heated words, that was obviously still at the back of his mind, he also took into consideration the way she was previously earlier in the episode and leaving the group in ep4 and making it seem like she didn't want the baby around. All this was building up to why he just lost it with her because he cared about the baby so much. I don't agree with how it went down but I understand why he reacted that way.
Yes but again, what he did wouldn't have even happened if Jane hadn't done what she did lol, full circle again. They were both wrong and you and i know that.
Your right it can't be trivialised, but as i said she tried to kill him too.
Um? She offers to end the fight? You mean when she tells Kenny to go and he refuses? Then why didn't she herself back off instead of charging at him? She intended to keep the fight up just as much. She didn't sheathe her knife then did she?
She wasn't being forced to retaliate when she charged at him though lol.
But i disagree because i feel given her plan was to make Clem aware (although i feel she already was) about Kenny, she made it cleverly seem that she was being the good guy, sheathing her knife and saying the things she did hoping he'd attack her as she knew he would. I'm saying that people are always going to look at this differently. I believe she had intentions from the start to get him out of the way. Even if she wasn't intending to actually "kill" him, she wanted him out of the way by leaving or prepared to kill him if necessary which she showed in the fight.
Again you say only he was keeping the fight up, yet why did she not back down instead of charge at him? She had the knife, she had the upper hand, she didn't need to carry on the fight for that reason but she kept it going as well because she wanted to.
It actually wasn't in her reach if you watch the scene again because Kenny was nearest the knife and naturally stopped him from grabbing it so raked at his eyes first. Hey if he lost both eyes, he couldn't find the knife right? Lol. Doing that to him though and saying "how does that feel huh?" again to me sounds like she was also enjoying what she was doing. She was no angel in the fight either.
To roughen him up? Also again to show Clem how "innocent" she was (sarcasm) that by not making it look like she was going to kill him. Do we really know for sure Kenny was wanting to kill Jane BEFORE it got personal when she slashed him with the knife? Was their any indication that he wanted to kill her and not just hurt her before they got outside of the rest stop? It would make a lot more sense that it became a fight to the death after the knife slashing rather than before it happened.
Sorry murder was the wrong word, manslaughter i should have said. Although what if she left AJ in there and then had he not cried, would she have told Clem the truth of his whereabouts? Or just left. Would she have left the baby to die because she couldn't bring herself to kill a baby so this was the easiest way?
"Calm down princess" in advance lol i was just brainstorming. Even I don't think she would have done that but it's always a possibility.
IWL (IronWoodLover) give me some credit dude! I never said it was ok killing people etc. I was merely saying that there was always a reason for when he did kill and not just killing someone out of the blue or because he felt like it.
When has Kenny ever lied in either game IWL? I don't think it was a lie. I genuinely believe that when he got mad and attacked Jane (inside the rest stop), i think that he only intended to hurt her to get the frustration out but then it became more serious after she had slashed him and then charging at him which at that point he knew it was a live or die situation. I don't think he wanted it to happen. He didn't want to do anything to her before she made it seem like he was dead. Kenny would have probably coped and lived with her being around but Jane wanted him out of the picture dead or alive.
Sorry Iron i know you will probably bombard me with a reply to this but this is why we have opinions dude!
Demonise? You mean when he said "i thought she killed Alvie Clem, and at any point she could have stopped what was happening by saying he was fine. She wanted a fight", which was completely 100% true. Unless you are referring to when he called her nuts and disturbed who had her own agenda and looking out for herself? Well sorry to annoy you but this is also true and it's not demonising her! To hide a baby in a freezing car and make it seem like he'd died just to enrage an already suffering person is nuts and it is disturbing. Even if her intentions were for someone else to see how angry he can get, even if she did it for her, she still had her own agenda because it was a stupid plan she cooked up which meant shit if the baby had died of the cold or walkers found a way in through the gap in the window or ultimately dying without revealing the truth. She wanted Kenny out of the way dead or alive and i just wish Telltale gave players the chance to have chosen dialogue to answer a question i would have liked Jane to ask her before the ending scene which was "will you come with me Clem or stay with Kenny". That would have been so much better than that whole scene.
IWL he'd just killed Jane, obviously that was running through his head, to me it was obvious that he realised that he went too far which is why he says he can't trust himself to keep them safe anymore. That in itself admits it right there that he was feeling guilty.Just because he didn't get on his knees, cry and say "oh im so so sorry Clem, i can't believe i did this" would have been out of character even for him.
Well that's just your opinion obviously but to me that is what i think the statement "people won't have to look at you and feel ashamed at what they've put you through" means that he is ashamed at every bad thing he has done in the past. He wouldn't have said it if he didn't mean it. Kenny has never lied about anything to anyone, it's one of the main reasons i always stood by him. Honesty and loyalty is more important to me above all else especially if I were living in a ruined world such as that. Even if he could be a handful to deal with at times, i always trusted him. I didn't trust Jane and i didn't trust anyone else in season 2. I just wished Omid and Christa had more of a role.
I already said above why he wasn't demonising her in my opinion and again my above comment about the Wellington statement to me is good enough to show his regret at everything bad he had previously done. I felt then he knows that those actions were not always good/justified or else he wouldn't have said it.
My point exactly.
Oh me too man! There are so many fucking things i would change about that shit! They have wasted so much and really shit on the S1 and 2 fans. You have no idea how angry i still am with Telltale and I will never forgive them for it.
Do you never respond to PMs Daze? Lol
That's funny.
.
Please forgive me, Venge!
I was feeling saturated with negativity.
'Saul goodman, this thread felt pretty negative which is why I opted out. My apologies for any part I had in that as well.
My head is going to implode if I open one more thread.
Between deciding to stay with Kenny or stay with Jane, Kenny can trust Clementine with AJ, also given the fact that Clementine could hold on her own. As for Jane, sure she could stay with Clementine but IF Clementine didn't survive S2, Jane would've left AJ to die even if as a baby, so either being pregnant or not, she would've killed herself by any means.
i agree
I believe that the "worst guardian ever" award belongs to Stranger, hands down. Jane realized that she can't handle shit anymore and she kills herself. She lost her sister because the latter gave up, damaging Jane mentally to an extensive degree. Stranger lost his family because he acted like Ben or worse, people. Sure both are mad, trying to use Clem as a substitute for their lost ones, but guess who is madder. Stranger. Jane could work with the rest of the (shit) group, unlike Kenny. Stranger declares jihad to Lee's group and wants Lee dead even if he didn't steal.
Jane was just a broken person. She was crushed by the demons she was dealing with. Having a baby, Luke's baby, was the final nail in her coffin. Perhaps, if Sarah could survive a bit longer, Kenny could listen to logic, maybe she could recover gradually. In the end she was alone, almost, constantly being reminded of all the pain she endured.
Wow, you're sophisticated as hell, babe.
Okay I am not jane's fan but how jane was trying to kill aj by puting him in a car, do you have an Objective evidence for that, when i look to it I see it like aj the one who gets ppl killed or hurt when he is in a car, clem puted him in a car in the flashback, dose that mean she Was trying to kill him?
How natasha died because of jane?
TRUE!
Natasha, Buricko, and Vitali. Also, you forgot Sarah and debatably Rebecca.
Because Jane wanted to(and determinately succeeds in) have Clementine steal her medicine from Arvo, which would've opened her up to the same problem that started off the Observation Deck defense. So as a result of threatening Arvo and sending him off defenseless, the Russian Group comes looking for her to get even and she just so happened to have snuck off hours/days beforehand. This lead to the group getting ambushed because he recognized Clementine, Rebecca turning in the middle of a tense standoff that caused Clementine/Kenny to fire the first shot, and Natasha ended up being the first casualty despite simply wanting Arvo's stuff back and trying to stop the shootout from happening.
[removed]
Honestly, I hate her after that season 2 ending. You don't put a helpless crying baby in danger just to prove a point to a mentally unstable man. Kenny needed help, not to be put to the test - I honestly cannot understand how so many people think it was justified to kill Kenny because he wasn't doing good mentally and might freak out, like, think about what that man has been though?
Honestly I just love Lee a lot and with Kenny being my only connection to him, I wanted to keep him as close to me as I could for as long as I could. Imagine there being no one in the entire world who knows what you've been through and who knew your family, than one lil' old crazy man. You'd protect him.