Are you team Rhaenyra or Aegon II?
Weird nerdy lore poll time; So The Dance Of Dragons (if you don't know it then read up son. Just expect to get lost along the way) is probably the most divisive war ever in Westeros until The War of 5 Kings. So who do you favor? Westerosi history look son neither favorably, so I'm curious as to where public opinion of everyone lies on this.
Now some guidelines; list your preferred side for both which monarch (Rhaenyra or Aegon II (don't go by sheer number of actions here but rather proportionalize the morality as Aegon II spent most of the war on R and R with Aemon doing everything)) and which side (Blacks or Greens) To quote Gyldayn;
Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both.
That moral ambiguity applies to both sides what with Viserys declaring Rhaenyra his heir, the murder or Lucerys, the murder of Jaehaerys, the imprisonment of the Sea Snake, Nettles being declared a traitor, so on so forth. So who's less terrible? Discuss!
I have an opinion here, but I'm posting as a comment to keep the proposed question here neutral.
Comments
Personally I'm hardcore Team Black (#Rhaenyra4Life #TheOriginalUnworthyAegon). Viserys said she should rule, she should rule damnit! Even if her kids (heck, half of her kids, Daemon's are definitely 100% Targaryen) were of questionable parentage, they're still Targaryens! As Jacaerys said:
Aegon stole the crown and had too much pride, hence his death as he refused to surrender and take the black. I mean this is straight from the Wiki:
Well that's the monarch's anyways. As for teams; I'm still black. The fact that the Hightowers were willing to ignore Visery's edicts and convince their son/grandson to claim the throne for himself shows they're power hungry. I've already roasted Aegon (as did Rhaenys. Ba dum tss! (...probably only like 2 of you actually got that joke)) but his brothers aren't as bad. Daeron seems cool (and also kind of irrelevant), but not stern enough to be king (Renly syndrome). Aemond seems unnecessarily cruel considering he killed Lucerys while he was attempting to flee. As for Aegon's kids, it's hard to say as they were so young during the war.
Of course the blacks aren't all saints (wow, that sounds racist without context). Daemon is real mixed basket, but he seems to have settled down by the time The Dance started. Rhaenys and The Sea Snake are good peoples. And again; the monarch in question's kids get axed off so early on they're hard to get a bead on.
High five, brother! All the greens are treacherous, especially Alicent. I hate her.
TeamBlackFTW
Rhaenyra was the rightful ruler at that time; there was no law about women not inheriting their stuffs.
Don't think anyone like the greens anyway.
Even though I'm Team Black, I can see both sides. Jaecaerys I made a law, with the support of all Great Houses, that a son comes before a daughter. Viserys I ignored that law, and made Rhaenyra his heir. A lot of houses considered the law made by Jaehaerys, and not the word of Viserys.
I'm Team Black mostly because of Daemon and Rhaenyra's sons, including Aegon III and Viserys II. And, because I hate Aemond. The way he murdered Lucerys...
Rhaenyra was kind of horrible sometimes, being even called "Maegor with Tits" (mostly because of the death of her children), and Aegon II was mostly manipulated by Ser Criston Cole and his mother, Alicent. Aemond was the "real dragon" fighting the war for the Greens, since Aegon II was injuried in one of the fist battles.
Anyway. Daemon, even though a snake, is awesome. He always wanted the crown, since Viserys I reign (even crowned King of the Narrow Sea), but he never murdered his brother or tried to go to war for it. And he managed to get "his" crown by marrying Rhaenyra (I'm sure he murdered his previous wife and Rhaenyra's husband for it). And his heirs to be crowned, Aegon and Viserys. And that battle with Aemond at the God's Eye is awesome.
Well there kind of was with the Great Council Of 101 A.C. but Viserys overrode that.
#TeamGreen
I support Aegon II mostly because of the law of inheritance in Westeros, and the fact that even though the war was clearly evenly matched and ended up in a complete stalemate with the death of both leaders (We technically won since Rhaenyra' was killed and eaten by Sunfyre before Aegon died himself), Aegon II was in a much better position at the start of the war, owning the wealth of the Westerlands, the warriors of the Stormlands, and half of the grain of the Reach.
Wasn't the law about inheritance blur/propaganda made by the green? That's how I recall it, but it's old memories.
Kind of. The Great Council of 101 A.C. declared that the inheritance should go through males first, but I'm pretty sure it was more Rhaenys/Laenor v. Viserys than male v. female. And besides, Viserys overruled it by declaring Rhaenyra his heir. Now that was because she was his only child and his wife had died (and to keep Daemon from the throne), but he continued to uphold that decision even after getting sons from Alicent Hightower and being pestered by both her and Otto for years, so he was serious about it.
So there's a grain of truth to Aegon's claim, but ultimately, yeah; it's not legitimate.
I don't rally care about either of Aegon or Rhaenyra. But Daemon is top five of my favorite Targaryen´s, so i´ll choose team TeamBlack.
I also really need to read up about the dance of dragons, things go in one ear and out the other.
Rhaenyra was the rightful heir to the throne, according to Viserys I' Will. Since she was a Child she was let inside Small Concil's meetings, in order to gain political knowledge and experience. Aegon II didn't want the crown initially, the Hightowers wanted power(his mother Alicent first) and used the male heir's excuse against Rhaenyra, plus they hid her father's death and killed the master of coin(who supported Rhaenyra). They also used this excuse to manipulate Aegon to start the war. So I think is legit to call them usurpers, and traitors.
The fact that every descendant from Alicent Hightower and Aegon II is dead is ironic. In the end we can say that Rhaenyra had some kind of victory.
That is veeery ironic. Ironic GRRM style.
A bit more GRRM irony (and Team Green roasting); Otto Hightower (Aegon's grandfather) originally supported Rhaenyra's claim before Viserys remarried since Daemon was trying to use the "male heirs first" tactic so he could get the crown before Rhaenyra (Daemon and Otto had some serious bad blood going way back before the Dance). But as soon as Aegon II is born; "You know that male heir first policy is a pretty good one hmm?"
Absolutely Rhaneyra (or however you spell that shit).
She was her father's aknowledged heir, no matter what anyone else felt about the matter. She was even aknowledged by and held the pledges of other great lords. A King has the right to choose his Heir.
That's a nice piece of info that just oozes "honor and integrity" isn't it? Lol.
GRRM is a genius at weaving all these characters and their motivations within the constructs of a very hard world and all of the restrictions that it comes with. It blows me away some times how a fictional character being hypocritical and/or misogynystic can piss me off so quick.
Daemon is on my top 5 list too! He's a very compelling character.
I wish we had more of his story floating around in the aether somewhere. Something from his point of view though, not more dusty Maesters mayhaps and possibilities. I want to know what the deal was with him and Nettles -related, romantic or just kindred souls? I want to know about his time as the King of the Stepstones as well. Really i would read a whole series about the Life and Times of the Rogue Prince. C'mon George....
I find it hard to keep the events of the Dance of the Dragons straight as well, but i think it stems from reading what would be a very interesting story about very interesting events - through the lense of a history lesson taught by a dude who is not only boring as shit, but is probably actively lying about a lot of things (or exaggerating/downplaying) and wasn't present at some events which he gives 'eyewitness testimony' of in the first place.
My biggest problem is remembering names, shit i had even forgotten that the hightower dude was named Otto. I´m currently trying to remember some things about the Valyrian freehold and the five towers in Yi Ti.
I haver never read the rogue prince, only the wiki. Gyldayn was not alive during the dance, unless he was over a 100 years old.
You are absolutely right about that it would be great to read it through the eyes of the characters themselves.
I think Nettles was somewhat of an escape from the world for Daemon, he had lived a hard life, loved and hated. Even if it sounds cliche. His "true love" was Laena . Daemon liked women that were strong and had passion for life. That was something both those women shared.
What are your five favorite Targaryens ?
The names i hate the most are the Astapori ones! Yezzan zo 'Who the hell cares' and all those guys get called Bob, Larry and Joe. Lol. Or sometimes just Bob 1,2 and 3.
Anyways, my fave Targs are Egg, Daemon, Jahaerys and Alysayne (who i shall lump together), Bloodraven of course, and Daena the Defiant.
Aemon and Jon (IMO) and Rhaegar are up there too. With Rhaegar it's mostly curiosity about what type of person he actually was - kidnapping megalomaniac, rescuing knight, or dude who was just trying to live his life and got dragged into a conspiracy or something.
Who are yours ousen?
Aegon and Visenya, i can't stand Rhaenys, because i feel that what happened to her was just a simple way to allow Dorne to stay independent. It was still burnt mostly to ash by Aegon and Visenya. And became part of the iron throne through the marriage between Daeron the good and Mariah Martell, but despite that i'm a bit salty about it.
Maegor the cruel. Aenys was weak and indecisive, he tried to appease the faith, but still married his son to his daughter. Aegon made compromises, because he knew he needed to, to keep it all together. But Aenys bent over and took it up the ass. It was Maegor, Visenya and Orys that crushed the rebels that rose up. It was fire and blood that made Westeros bend, Maegor reminded them about that.
Rhaegar, a bit of madness and a bit of greatness. Like a true Targaryen. I want to know how much of the prophecy he was right about. Which will tell us if the madness or the greatness was predominant in him.
So top five. Aegon the conqueror, Visenya, Maegor the cruel, Daemon the rogue prince, Rhaegar the silver prince.
Honorable mentions. Aemond one eye. Aemon the dragon knight, i just feel that he was a bit to perfect. Arthur, Gerold, Lewyn , Oswell, and Jonothor. Were all what a kingsguard member is supposed to be, but Aemon took it to the next level. Unless he did sleep with Naerys. Jaehaerys, Alysanna, i also lump them together. They were needed to heal Westeros after Maegor. Maekar the anvil. And lastly young Griff, i have high hopes for him. No matter if he is a Targaryen or a Blackfyre.
Daemon Blackfyre: The king that bore the sword. Brynden Rivers and Aegor rivers are some of my favorite characters in the lore. But i don't consider them Targaryens. True dragons of old Valyria.
House Blackfyre being a real cadet branch of house Targaryen. Red or black does not matter, a dragon is a dragon. But still not Targaryen any of them. In my opinion, because i put a lot of weight on the name.
Rhaenyra! Aegon II was a petty spiteful short sighted incompetent whose ineptitude got tons of people killed
You know that I hate the targaeryens and their fanboys but I would be with the greens in this civil war.
I like the King's landing perspective and the King who is in the red keep have a little advantage being his/her claim more tought.
Moreover that we know the rules in mediaeval age and got the throne pass to the next male in line.
Although I don't care about the yellow heads shits they remind me about the careless kings in my country(see Catholic Kings).
In Conclusion,Stannis is the ONE TRUE KING(not at this moment but he will be)
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The Targaerynes are true kings not the Baratheons
Not for me
Targaryens are exiled. They are not "True Kings". Aegon I win Westeros with war, Robert I did the same. If you keep that "True King" stuff, going back to time, the Children of the Forest are the True Kings of Westeros.
Good point,The realm itself is a lie that people tell to each other trying to justify their actions and get more power. But power it's a trick it resides when men believe it resides.
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So you're free to choose your own queen/king
But they won't have the power that's for sure
On my own I sympathize more with our "mannis" because I like his ideals and the fact that he really cares about the position(you can't say about the bigger part of pretenders).
Stannis is a king who fights with his people not wait for his death in an old castle in a hight mountain.
Follow the path of justice is not an easy quest and it's quite difficult to be true to it.
That's why I like the mannis.
Do you think renly would have been a good king
Renly is a controversial character he had the abilities of a good politician(not Littlefinger's level) and in a realm at peace he would be a good king.
But law is law Stannis is Renly's older brother and the throne heir by right.Renly had the social skills Stannis lack but ruling was only a craving for him.
Live the experience.
In a different way than Robert but not worthy at the end of the day.
That doesn't mean that I support Kinslaying,
even the own Stannis has regrets becouse of his death.
In my opinion I think that if the two brothers joined forces they would won without doubt the war of the five kings.
Are you a book reader?if not you should search the "Renly's peach" speech to understand more the relation between the baratheon brothers.
And also I have to say the the majority of the pretenders of the iron throne(not all)would make good leaders nowadays.
Yes I have read the books
How do you think Stannis march on winterfell is going to end
I always say the same thing. If Stannis and Renly joined his forces... Oh man. The Lannisters were doomed.
Stannis probably wouldn't have an heir, so Renly could get his Throne eventually. But he wat too greedy.
Let me answer your question mate.
Stannis a harsh man,it's just difficult to predict his next move.
He moves with impulses.
Well he has an alliance with a few Northern houses doesn't he? that would play an important part on the battle.
I'm speaking ofcourse about the Mormonts and Northern Clans.
He even discovered a traitor plan thanks to Lord Snow...the scenario is not bad for him at all.
Resuming Stannis
has a hight probability to win this battle.Martin is a good writer not like the Daves of the TV show.
Roose Bolton will survive the battle for sure,being a bittersweet ending.
I expect Ramsay's death,he has not the plot-armour he owned in the show.
And Davos and the Manderlys will play an important role in this battle for sure friend,the Onion-Knight is Stannis' secret weapon
Stannis has lost some men and horses due to the snow and the bad weather
The houses that are completely loyal to the Boltons
House Ryswell House Dustin And the Freys
If the Other houses find out that Bran and Rickon are alive they will surely side with Stannis
They're not "completely loyal" to anybody they are just opportunists searching for more power(see Lady Barbrey Dustin).Don't be so naive
One more thing
Ser Justin Massey was sent to Essos searching for sellswords for Stannis' cause.
Yeah it's an important fact too.
Do remember the golden company are fighting in the stormlands for Aegon Taragayen And Jon Connington it is a pretender
The second sons are fighting for Daenerys after being Persuaded by Tyrion to stop fighting for the Slavers.
There are still companies to be hire,Essos is big my friend.
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The Company of the Cat,The company of the rose,the Gallant men,The Jolly fellows... .
Surely Ser Justin can find more men for Stannis
Do you Think young griff is really Aegon Taragayen or no
Ser Justin wants to marry Asha Greyjoy That's why he is going to Essos to hire sellswords for Stannis
Actually not there is a pretty good theory that "Aegon" may be a Blackfire through daughter line.And Illirio Mopatis son
The theory believes that Varys is also a secret blackfire and more complicate stuff that I won't explain here.
But I recommend you to watch Altshift X vid "What's Varys up to?" to get a better vision of it.
Yeah we all know that "The smiler" only follows Stannis for his own interest.
But Stannis is not a fool and manipulates the man to achieve the toughest goals, he is using him like a puppet
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If westeros were Europe
The North Scotland
Westerlands England
The Reach France
Iron islands Denmark
The Stormlands Wales
The Vale Switzerland
Riverlands Germany
Dorne Spain
You're right but Spain is not only sun and sand.
There are parts such as Galicia or País Vasco that on my opinion can be part of the North in Got.
Galicia could be Stony Shore the poorest part of the North because of his historical position in Spain.
Stony Shore has not trade:
Galicia had not.
Stony Shore has not an important house ruling in it:
Galicia had not power.
I'm sorry if you don't understand the comparison but it truly fits my country
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I'm Scottish
The part of Scotland I'm from to me would be Karhold and the Dreadfort
The northern Mountain clans are inspired from Scottish Clans
I wonder if the Forresters are allied with Stannis
Rodriks probably lord in the books
The whitehills are allied with the boltons