Not to mention that debris appeared after she fell... it literally magically made it's way over her legs just so she could be stuck and die... they couldn't give her a logical death at least? Like fuck's sake, how about dying in the shootout so that Clementine has more an incentive to agree with Kenny's harsh treatment over Arvo, or if she got taught how to use a gun, how about having Sarah survive the gunfight and surviving the whole season? I mean, it makes me wonder what the whole point of her character was if they only intended to kill her off?
She was portrayed as Clementine's potential Bestie, she showed a willingness to learn how to adapt to the apocalypse despite everyone coddling her and she even showed more galls than most of the characters at certain points (determinant most of the time, but I still count them). Then she just dies, you can save her but she dies again, you can try to get Jane to save her or leave her to try and save Sarah out of her own whim but nope, she dies anyway... Ugh, I just really fucking hate it when good characters with so much potential are killed off so meaninglessly, I mean, at least talk about what happened to her and how Clementine feels about her death.
Here's a small detail concerning Sarah's death that kinda pissed me off when I replayed Season 2. It's not particularly interesting or hard … moreto spot but oh well.
So at the scene where the deck collapses and Sarah is trapped under rubble, you are given the option to order Jane to go down and help Sarah. Of course we all know how poorly that turns out. The thing that peeved me off however, is that as Jane is trying to pull Sarah out of the rubble, a piece of a plank falls on Jane for quite literally no reason.
Now I wouldn't blame you for thinking this is nothing (and it very well could be, they might've had the plank hit Jane to give her more motivation to abandon Sarah idk) but personally when I saw that scene while replaying I took it as a subtle "fuck you" to Sarah and any player who had the heart to try to give Sarah a second chance at adapting to the harsh new world.
So I just wanted to say, fuck you too Telltale. If I ever se… [view original content]
Agreed. Although this is plot plank we're talking about, it's the same as a normal plank as you described but only hits people in the face in the most inconvenient of times.
they might've had the plank hit Jane to give her more motivation to abandon Sarah idk)
Motivation to abandon Sarah? Huh? I doubt J… moreane wanted to abandon Sarah. Jane merely wants to live, and she saves herself instead of letting herself and Sarah die, I don't see what's wrong about that.
You ever picked up one of those planks, or got hit in the face with one of them? I recently rebuilt my dock on my lake, had to get down in the water under it and had some planks fall on me from only about 2 feet above me and let me tell you, those fuckers are heavy and they hurt. Seeing how that one was (15?) feet above Jane and landed right on her face, that is enough force to really knock her back. I can see the average person getting knocked out by that had it hit them on their temple. So I don't see how she used that as an excuse to abandon Sarah.
Agreed. Although this is plot plank we're talking about, it's the same as a normal plank as you described but only hits people in the face in the most inconvenient of times.
It's like in the situation where Sarah is stuck in the magically appearing debris in S2 E4 if you saved her at the trailer, Bonnie and Mike … morehave guns, Jane and Clementine have melee weapons and guns but no one fucking did anything to fight about 8 walkers.... like, seriously? They went through a whole herd of em' and apparently Bonnie and Mike are the only ones capable on shooting with a limit of a single shot? Not to mention they were headshots...
Yeah, I don't get that either. I guess (assuming it was intentional) it may have been a measure taken to ease returning players in that also doubled as a deconstructive thing when Kenny was to be revealed as "Carver". Having a new character that's visually so much like an old one when the original themself is now the villain could be interesting if done properly, but its also bound to piss a few people off.
And I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be Carlos vs. "Carver"(aka Lee vs Kenny) at first anyway, so it still doesn't make too much sense.
Then what's the point in learning the lesson if you're not going to make use of it? They knew that people didn't want Kenny and Jane (even E… moredith) to just die, there were literally hundreds of threads about this after Season 2 ended... there were thousands of comments across the net stating what peoples' hopes were for Season 3, what they wanted and what they didn't, most of which got ignored. You can't expect to make people happy if you continue to do what you learned they weren't fond of you doing.
I wonder how much they did know, I hope they at least knew the basic gist of the first two seasons but I'm somewhat doubtful considering the way they wrote Clementine's character.
Yet Sarah did indeed fall and was basically forgotten shortly afterwards.
Honestly, the forgotten aspect is initially a clear a reflection of laziness, but the whole thing is a combination of that, bias, and spite.
From a point of view, everybody had pretty much shown a lack of respect and consideration towards the meaning behind the memorial statue. It does highlight just how far humanity has fallen.
I suppose. Except Jane(who's pretty much the closest thing to a singular antagonist in the episode) being the one to visibly look at it really muddy the waters.
It doesn't help that the message a memorial statue had in Amid The Ruins was written as "Fallen, but not forgotten".
Yet Sarah did indeed… more fall and was basically forgotten shortly afterwards.
From a point of view, everybody had pretty much shown a lack of respect and consideration towards the meaning behind the memorial statue. It does highlight just how far humanity has fallen.
The biggest reason Jane gets a lot of hate when it comes to this matter is that she wanted Sarah dead to begin with and is more or less the catalyst of both of her deaths. Survival or whatever is one thing, but for someone who's supposed a pragmatic expert survivalist, Jane was actually incredibly petty when it came to Sarah by:
not doing anything to help her herself despite not only having dealt with this before but small implications that she has some form of PTSD herself,
stupidly arguing with Clementine to just leave her despite Clementine's obvious connection and therefore wasting time that could've gone into getting them both out of there,
insisting on badmouthing her for the sake of claiming she's right even if Sarah's 10 feet behind her,
having to be guilt-tripped(not the word I want to use, but it'll have to do for now) into helping her out of something she clearly can't escape on her own(which hypocritical considering Jane herself needed help to even be in that position in the first place),
and finally just abandoning her like a clumsy coward anyway despite having had a gun on her since they had escaped.
they might've had the plank hit Jane to give her more motivation to abandon Sarah idk)
Motivation to abandon Sarah? Huh? I doubt J… moreane wanted to abandon Sarah. Jane merely wants to live, and she saves herself instead of letting herself and Sarah die, I don't see what's wrong about that.
You ever picked up one of those planks, or got hit in the face with one of them? I recently rebuilt my dock on my lake, had to get down in the water under it and had some planks fall on me from only about 2 feet above me and let me tell you, those fuckers are heavy and they hurt. Seeing how that one was (15?) feet above Jane and landed right on her face, that is enough force to really knock her back. I can see the average person getting knocked out by that had it hit them on their temple. So I don't see how she used that as an excuse to abandon Sarah.
Honestly, the way they handled and treated both of them towards the end is the main reason why I'm right on the edge of just stopping giving a shit about this game series.
OMG, It still hurts me for how this scene was handled.
I gave Telltale a middle finger as well by having Gabe dead in my game. I'll never let my Clementine be friends with terrible characters.
Quick question: How can you convice Jane to get to Sarah? in my playthrough I said to Jane that she needs to fucking get Sarah but she just looks at her.
Honestly, the way they handled and treated both of them towards the end is the main reason why I'm right on the edge of just stopping giving a shit about this game series.
Not to mention that debris appeared after she fell... it literally magically made it's way over her legs just so she could be stuck and die... they couldn't give her a logical death at least? Like fuck's sake, how about dying in the shootout so that Clementine has more an incentive to agree with Kenny's harsh treatment over Arvo, or if she got taught how to use a gun, how about having Sarah survive the gunfight and surviving the whole season?
Yeah, that's the probably most logic general consensus about her death being unnecessary--her general disposition as an odd duck in the group meant she easily could've survived the Season alongside Clementine, AJ, and determinately Kenny/Jane/Luke. And if they truly had to kill her off(executive mandate or otherwise), the ending of the episode was the perfect place to do it considering who catalyzed it, who the antagonist is, and the credits song that plays afterward to cut to black.
I mean, it makes me wonder what the whole point of her character was if they only intended to kill her off?
Mind you, you can say that about a number of characters, but Sarah's canon death in particular was a disgrace because unlike most of deaths in the games, her's had little to nothing to do with her actual character arc and just happens for the sake of it, with any (albeit blatantly short-lived) payoff/resignation going to Jane instead--and that's only because the cutscene where she leaves is completely unchanged regardless of if you left Sarah in the trailer. It means pretty much nothing and renders her major, even iconic existence fruitless and damn near pointless--and the/another sad thing is that it really didn't have to be that way.
She was portrayed as Clementine's potential Bestie, she showed a willingness to learn how to adapt to the apocalypse despite everyone coddling her and she even showed more galls than most of the characters at certain points (determinant most of the time, but I still count them).
The last point is particularly notable because, aside from Kenny(which actually a neat bit of fridge brilliance when you think about), she's the only character in Season 2 that actually remembers your non-recent choices and has several pieces of dialogue specifically rigged to reflect your relationship with her.
Not to mention that debris appeared after she fell... it literally magically made it's way over her legs just so she could be stuck and die.… more.. they couldn't give her a logical death at least? Like fuck's sake, how about dying in the shootout so that Clementine has more an incentive to agree with Kenny's harsh treatment over Arvo, or if she got taught how to use a gun, how about having Sarah survive the gunfight and surviving the whole season? I mean, it makes me wonder what the whole point of her character was if they only intended to kill her off?
She was portrayed as Clementine's potential Bestie, she showed a willingness to learn how to adapt to the apocalypse despite everyone coddling her and she even showed more galls than most of the characters at certain points (determinant most of the time, but I still count them). Then she just dies, you can save her but she dies again, you can try to get Jane to save her or leave her to try and s… [view original content]
Like @prink34320 said, what is the point of learning a lesson if they're just making it much worse? They did say Season 2 Endings were going to make a huge impact in Season 3 and that is one of the worst broken promises no one should forget.
Hey, just because they learned some lessons doesn't mean they had to put them into practice!
Also, I'm pretty sure a fair chunk of the pe… moreople who worked on ANF were new and therefore would just operate off what they know vs. what they're told to do.
Like @prink34320 said, what is the point of learning a lesson if they're just making it much worse? They did say Season 2 Endings were going to make a huge impact in Season 3 and that is one of the worst broken promises no one should forget.
Season 2 Endings were going to make a huge impact in Season 3 and that is one of the worst broken promises no one should forget.
The… morey only impacted Clementine's body, that's it. Hell, her scars/tattoo aren't even brought up or questioned by Javi or anyone else.
Here's a small detail concerning Sarah's death that kinda pissed me off when I replayed Season 2. It's not particularly interesting or hard … moreto spot but oh well.
So at the scene where the deck collapses and Sarah is trapped under rubble, you are given the option to order Jane to go down and help Sarah. Of course we all know how poorly that turns out. The thing that peeved me off however, is that as Jane is trying to pull Sarah out of the rubble, a piece of a plank falls on Jane for quite literally no reason.
Now I wouldn't blame you for thinking this is nothing (and it very well could be, they might've had the plank hit Jane to give her more motivation to abandon Sarah idk) but personally when I saw that scene while replaying I took it as a subtle "fuck you" to Sarah and any player who had the heart to try to give Sarah a second chance at adapting to the harsh new world.
So I just wanted to say, fuck you too Telltale. If I ever se… [view original content]
Here's a small detail concerning Sarah's death that kinda pissed me off when I replayed Season 2. It's not particularly interesting or hard … moreto spot but oh well.
So at the scene where the deck collapses and Sarah is trapped under rubble, you are given the option to order Jane to go down and help Sarah. Of course we all know how poorly that turns out. The thing that peeved me off however, is that as Jane is trying to pull Sarah out of the rubble, a piece of a plank falls on Jane for quite literally no reason.
Now I wouldn't blame you for thinking this is nothing (and it very well could be, they might've had the plank hit Jane to give her more motivation to abandon Sarah idk) but personally when I saw that scene while replaying I took it as a subtle "fuck you" to Sarah and any player who had the heart to try to give Sarah a second chance at adapting to the harsh new world.
So I just wanted to say, fuck you too Telltale. If I ever se… [view original content]
The same gunfight were all the Russians died apart from the one we met prior who has a leg brace and was presented as a sympathetic character coincidentally and Clem's group only suffered a leg shot for Luke which was taken note of throughout the episode and Mike's injury that was never mentioned again after he yelled "I'm hit".
Ugh, the more I look into situations in Season 2, the more I dislike the way Telltale handled the season.
Honestly, Season 2 is so much of a cluster-fuck that it's hard to pinpoint who they intended to be the villain, sure there's Carver but he was only a thread for literally 2 episodes and I could see they were trying to make Kenny out as the 'bad guy' but, especially in episode 5, there was so much favoritism towards him, it was blatant that whoever wrote that episode liked Kenny far more than every other character, giving him the more emotional and lengthy scenes, references towards Lee and the father figure role right from the moment we see him again (despite having no set relationship with Clementine in the previous season) and this is even more apparent in the ANF flashbacks.
To be honest, I think pitting Kenny with someone in episode 5 was the wrong way to go, because the plot of Season 2 transitioned from a focus on the Cabin Group and the Howe's community to a focus on Kenny... again.
Yeah, I don't get that either. I guess (assuming it was intentional) it may have been a measure taken to ease returning players in that also… more doubled as a deconstructive thing when Kenny was to be revealed as "Carver". Having a new character that's visually so much like an old one when the original themself is now the villain could be interesting if done properly, but its also bound to piss a few people off.
And I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be Carlos vs. "Carver"(aka Lee vs Kenny) at first anyway, so it still doesn't make too much sense.
,
I still don't know why they chose the route of killing off Kenny and Jane, especially the way they did that is silly for Kenny's character and uncharacteristic of Jane's? Like, we literally had hundreds, possibly thousands of posts filled with people saying they don't want determinants to keep dying, they could've easily did something along the lines of:
Wellington Ending: Edith fights back the invaders whilst Clementine escapes with AJ, they are separated and Clem mentions that she wants to find Edith, plus she wears a jacket that Edith gave her.
Kenny Ending: The group are surrounded by a herd of walkers and Kenny kills a bunch of them to clear a path for Clementine and AJ, they then promise to see each other again and AJ wears Kenny's hat and Clementine mentions Kenny taught her how to raise a child.
Jane Ending A: If you let the family in, they turn on Clem and co., Jane distracts them to give her and AJ enough time to escape Howe's and you hear a gunshot, following with Randy and Clementine staring hatefully towards each other and Clementine distrusts strangers to a harsher extent and she vows to avenge Jane.
Jane Ending B: If you turned the family away, Randy comes back with a big group (some of which are the 400 Days characters that didn't go with Tavia) who want to claim Howe's, so Clem, AJ and Jane all escape together but are separated by the bandit group, but Clementine and Jane see each other alive and give each other a smile before running into separate directions as they're being chased. Clementine is wearing a leather jacket that Jane gave her and she mentions wanting to find her friend Jane.
I think the Alone Ending was pretty good how it was, it felt like the default ending tbh.
Also, what insults me about the flashbacks the most is that, they were only 5 minutes and yet, it didn't look like much effort was put into them... like, seriously?
I think that might be one of the reasons I loved Sarah's character and was sad to see her go, she actually expressed an outcome of my decisions (not to mention she played a large role in a few main decisions), unlike Rebecca who forgets you threaten her, Carlos who forgets he doesn't trust you, Alvin who forgets you threatened him, Luke who... well you didn't really have much relationship-changing moments with him and Nick briefly remembers a couple of things but becomes a redundant character after he can die. Bonnie is really the only other character who has a dynamic relationship with Clementine but it's based off of a single choice and she still leaves without telling you beforehand, at least with Sarah she expresses whether or not she sees you as a friend based on how you treated her throughout.
Not to mention that debris appeared after she fell... it literally magically made it's way over her legs just so she could be stuck and die.… more.. they couldn't give her a logical death at least? Like fuck's sake, how about dying in the shootout so that Clementine has more an incentive to agree with Kenny's harsh treatment over Arvo, or if she got taught how to use a gun, how about having Sarah survive the gunfight and surviving the whole season?
Yeah, that's the probably most logic general consensus about her death being unnecessary--her general disposition as an odd duck in the group meant she easily could've survived the Season alongside Clementine, AJ, and determinately Kenny/Jane/Luke. And if they truly had to kill her off(executive mandate or otherwise), the ending of the episode was the perfect place to do it considering who catalyzed it, who the antagonist is, and the credits song that plays afterward to cut to black.
I mean… [view original content]
Actually, Carlos does have a few variations in his behavior in both of the first two episodes. The problem is not only is it pretty easy for you to get on his bad side, but his screentime and interactions in general are so limited for the sake of buildup to his major role that ended up not happening that he feels more sporadic than he was supposed to.
Alvin who forgets you threatened him
That was probably gonna be brought up during the dummied out fishing minigame with him, but it went completely out the window between episodes.
Luke who... well you didn't really have much relationship-changing moments with him
Pretty much the same as Carlos except with a lot more interactions and screentime, as well as having the focus of his character going into hyping a conflict between him and Kenny/Carlos that limited his interactions and presence, something that Jane's sudden hyperprominence and later hijacking didn't help.
Nick briefly remembers a couple of things but becomes a redundant character after he can die
To be fair there, I'm willing his case a little more slack since not only is he THE most developed character in that Season despite(or even because of) his relative irrelevance in the main story arc, but the surprising amount of thought and effort that went into making his canon death kinda balances him out in my opinion. Still, he is the first real victim of not only the determinant character curse, but also Season 2's issue with bidimentional major choices.
Bonnie is really the only other character who has a dynamic relationship with Clementine but it's based off of a single choice and she still leaves without telling you beforehand
Does she really count, tho? Cause assuming that choice is the one where Luke dies, I don't recall many other significant effects when it comes to interacting with Bonnie.
at least with Sarah she expresses whether or not she sees you as a friend based on how you treated her throughout
Yep. Also, reviewing the story beats and side materials of In Harm's Way and Amid the Ruins several times makes it pretty clear that there was supposed to be more of her in the second half but the emphasis on Luke vs. Kenny and especially the developer bias (the opposite polarity of which also went around Jane) ended up selling her short.
I think that might be one of the reasons I loved Sarah's character and was sad to see her go, she actually expressed an outcome of my decisi… moreons (not to mention she played a large role in a few main decisions), unlike Rebecca who forgets you threaten her, Carlos who forgets he doesn't trust you, Alvin who forgets you threatened him, Luke who... well you didn't really have much relationship-changing moments with him and Nick briefly remembers a couple of things but becomes a redundant character after he can die. Bonnie is really the only other character who has a dynamic relationship with Clementine but it's based off of a single choice and she still leaves without telling you beforehand, at least with Sarah she expresses whether or not she sees you as a friend based on how you treated her throughout.
Pretty much. One of the main problems with the Season as a whole is that there was more focus put on shallow drama and suspense for the sake of getting a rise out of people than there was on telling a truly engaging, cohesive story.
The same gunfight were all the Russians died apart from the one we met prior who has a leg brace and was presented as a sympathetic characte… morer coincidentally and Clem's group only suffered a leg shot for Luke which was taken note of throughout the episode and Mike's injury that was never mentioned again after he yelled "I'm hit".
Ugh, the more I look into situations in Season 2, the more I dislike the way Telltale handled the season.
That's likely a big combination of the plan with the earliest drafts(which likely includes Vanaman's outlines) being charge about a quarter of the way through development, the developers falling back on nostalgia to keep things solid, inherent favoritism in house as you needlessly pointed out(not because you were wrong for doing so, but because it's blatantly obvious :P), and the fanbase hype encouraging them to emphasize some things while forgetting others.
Kenny was meant to be revealed as "Carver" during In Harm's Way, with the first two episodes constantly having him an unseen force of nature that the Cabin Group are rightfully paranoid about due to both they're personal experiences with him(his clashing ideas of leadership against Luke's, ruining his friendship with Alvin by coercing Rebecca into an affair that got her pregnant, whatever personal beef he had with Carlos that may have involved raising Sarah) and the constant death left in his wake(Roman and the North Carolina bandits sans Mike being wiped out by him, Pete sacrificing himself to buy the others time). And then with the reveal in episode three, his vaguely positive pre-established history with Clementine would cause her to be torn between helping him with his new settlement or defeating the monster he has become.
For one reason or another, they decided to make Carver an original character and thus created Troy and later "Bill" himself to serve that purpose, with his interest in Clementine being kept for the sake of making the conflict between him and the Cabin Group still be very Gray and Grey outside of their complicated history with him. He was also given specific animosities with Luke, Carlos, and Alvin, with Carlos in particular being another Shadow Archetype of Lee meaning the story would still have a plot involving Lee vs. Kenny in a way.
And then, they decided to include Kenny anyway and that gradually led to the ideas of him having a rivalry with Luke and an animosity with Carver as-well-as/instead-of Carlos and the creation of Sarita to give him a supporting character similar to Katjaa and Sarah. Thus the accurate hype that went with the "Sit with Luke/Kenny at Dinner" choice led to it becoming a huge focal point for the Season, even if the obvious favoritism and discrepancies in the story proper made it unstable. And if Carlos was indeed the source of most of his Season 2 arc, then the emphasis on him going crazy and becoming threat was always intended to make him Not So Different from Carver.
So while Kenny indeed always intended to be in Season 2 in some shape and form, the details shifted around enough that he undeniably seemed like a more complex character than most of what they come up with because he already had the Season 1 connection very well established in him and they combined a bunch of the ideas together to get what we got.
However, I agree that bringing him back ended up short-selling any original material that wasn't named AJ and Kenny himself an unbearably overexposed Creator's Pet.
Honestly, Season 2 is so much of a cluster-fuck that it's hard to pinpoint who they intended to be the villain, sure there's Carver but he w… moreas only a thread for literally 2 episodes and I could see they were trying to make Kenny out as the 'bad guy' but, especially in episode 5, there was so much favoritism towards him, it was blatant that whoever wrote that episode liked Kenny far more than every other character, giving him the more emotional and lengthy scenes, references towards Lee and the father figure role right from the moment we see him again (despite having no set relationship with Clementine in the previous season) and this is even more apparent in the ANF flashbacks.
To be honest, I think pitting Kenny with someone in episode 5 was the wrong way to go, because the plot of Season 2 transitioned from a focus on the Cabin Group and the Howe's community to a focus on Kenny... again.
The flashbacks were gonna be longer, such as a bigger buildup to the violence from the pissed off families in the Wellington ending, but the ones we got were cut short.
I still don't know why they chose the route of killing off Kenny and Jane, especially the way they did that is silly for Kenny's character a… morend uncharacteristic of Jane's? Like, we literally had hundreds, possibly thousands of posts filled with people saying they don't want determinants to keep dying, they could've easily did something along the lines of:
* Wellington Ending: Edith fights back the invaders whilst Clementine escapes with AJ, they are separated and Clem mentions that she wants to find Edith, plus she wears a jacket that Edith gave her.
* Kenny Ending: The group are surrounded by a herd of walkers and Kenny kills a bunch of them to clear a path for Clementine and AJ, they then promise to see each other again and AJ wears Kenny's hat and Clementine mentions Kenny taught her how to raise a child.
* Jane Ending A: If you let the family in, they turn on Clem and co., Jane distracts them to give her and AJ enough time to escape… [view original content]
In a post Alyssa made in response to VengefulKenny's question asking what happened to Mama after David took her to the hospital at the General Questions Thread, she implies that Mama was torn apart by zombies at the hospital in front of David. Though she refers to the scenario as "her take" so whether or not it can be considered as canon is a bit iffy. Here's the post:
I'm pretty sure that David did get Mama to the hospital; he mentions in Above the Law that he got caught up with a military effort, and I suspect that happened at one of the hospital quarantine areas, probably after things went seriously south. My take is that having to watch something like his mother being ripped apart/eaten alive in front of him; being made a victim by the same system that was supposed to be helping; would have spurred him into trying to find a better solution himself. His grief and rage blinded him to being able to think about his own family (we know from a later flashback that his first impulse under stress IS to retreat to a place he feels he can control more) and sent him back to the place where he feels the most functional/able to help.
In a post Alyssa made in response to VengefulKenny's question asking what happened to Mama after David took her to the hospital at the Gene… moreral Questions Thread, she implies that Mama was torn apart by zombies at the hospital in front of David. Though she refers to the scenario as "her take" so whether or not it can be considered as canon is a bit iffy. Here's the post:
I'm pretty sure that David did get Mama to the hospital; he mentions in Above the Law that he got caught up with a military effort, and I suspect that happened at one of the hospital quarantine areas, probably after things went seriously south. My take is that having to watch something like his mother being ripped apart/eaten alive in front of him; being made a victim by the same system that was supposed to be helping; would have spurred him into trying to find a better solution himself. His grief and rage blinded him to being able to think about his own family (we know … [view original content]
Actually, Carlos does have a few variations in his behavior in both of the first two episodes. The problem is not only is it pretty easy for you to get on his bad side, but his screentime and interactions in general are so limited for the sake of buildup to his major role that ended up not happening that he feels more sporadic than he was supposed to.
A few variations perhaps, but he still forgets the fact that he doesn't trust you or that he doesn't want you near his daughter, yet puts trust in Clem to look after Sarah and later on asks her to calm Sarah down.
Pretty much the same as Carlos except with a lot more interactions and screentime, as well as having the focus of his character going into hyping a conflict between him and Kenny/Carlos that limited his interactions and presence, something that Jane's sudden hyperprominence and later hijacking didn't help.
In my opinion, the conflict didn't really help the story in any meaningful way, especially since they had to create plot holes, ignore major plot points and change characters to make it happen.
To be fair there, I'm willing his case a little more slack since not only is he THE most developed character in that Season despite(or even because of) his relative irrelevance in the main story arc, but the surprising amount of thought and effort that went into making his canon death kinda balances him out in my opinion. Still, he is the first real victim of not only the determinant character curse, but also Season 2's issue with bidimentional major choices.
In what way is Nick the most developed character may I ask? I'd personally give that award to Jane for going from cold from episode 3 and showing a blurred sense of morals and justice throughout the following episodes, but of course this was tarnished by ANF. I would say that Sarah suffered more from both points, being the first determinant character who dies in the same episode and despite having a large role in the story, amounted to nothing of relevance.
Does she really count, tho? Cause assuming that choice is the one where Luke dies, I don't recall many other significant effects when it comes to interacting with Bonnie.
I'm only counting her because she actually has some change in character based on a decision, something that should have been prominent with all characters throughout the season. I guess the watch Kenny kill Carver choice or leave with Sarita didn't have as much impact on the group dynamic as we were lead to believe.
Carlos who forgets he doesn't trust you,
Actually, Carlos does have a few variations in his behavior in both of the first two episod… morees. The problem is not only is it pretty easy for you to get on his bad side, but his screentime and interactions in general are so limited for the sake of buildup to his major role that ended up not happening that he feels more sporadic than he was supposed to.
Alvin who forgets you threatened him
That was probably gonna be brought up during the dummied out fishing minigame with him, but it went completely out the window between episodes.
Luke who... well you didn't really have much relationship-changing moments with him
Pretty much the same as Carlos except with a lot more interactions and screentime, as well as having the focus of his character going into hyping a conflict between him and Kenny/Carlos that limited his interactions and presence, something that Jane's sudden h… [view original content]
They shouldn't have been, Telltale knew what fans were hoping for, so by making the flashbacks how they were, it felt like they intentionally wanted to crush our hopes.
The flashbacks were gonna be longer, such as a bigger buildup to the violence from the pissed off families in the Wellington ending, but the ones we got were cut short.
Kenny was meant to be revealed as "Carver" during In Harm's Way, with the first two episodes constantly having him an unseen force of nature that the Cabin Group are rightfully paranoid about due to both they're personal experiences with him(his clashing ideas of leadership against Luke's, ruining his friendship with Alvin by coercing Rebecca into an affair that got her pregnant, whatever personal beef he had with Carlos that may have involved raising Sarah) and the constant death left in his wake(Roman and the North Carolina bandits sans Mike being wiped out by him, Pete sacrificing himself to buy the others time). And then with the reveal in episode three, his vaguely positive pre-established history with Clementine would cause her to be torn between helping him with his new settlement or defeating the monster he has become.
Honestly, that plot sounds worse, Kenny becoming a dictator is believable but to the extent of Carver? It's very uncharacteristic of Kenny in my opinion, especially when his ideology wasn't to settle.
That's likely a big combination of the plan with the earliest drafts(which likely includes Vanaman's outlines) being charge about a quarter … moreof the way through development, the developers falling back on nostalgia to keep things solid, inherent favoritism in house as you needlessly pointed out(not because you were wrong for doing so, but because it's blatantly obvious :P), and the fanbase hype encouraging them to emphasize some things while forgetting others.
Kenny was meant to be revealed as "Carver" during In Harm's Way, with the first two episodes constantly having him an unseen force of nature that the Cabin Group are rightfully paranoid about due to both they're personal experiences with him(his clashing ideas of leadership against Luke's, ruining his friendship with Alvin by coercing Rebecca into an affair that got her pregnant, whatever personal beef he had with Carlos that may have involved raising Sarah) and the constant death left… [view original content]
Admittedly, it's definitely one of those things that probably SOUNDED good on paper, but it would be really tricky to pull off in a proper, balanced way. So at some point, they decided to make him an original character to make it easier on themselves.
Kenny was meant to be revealed as "Carver" during In Harm's Way, with the first two episodes constantly having him an unseen force of nature… more that the Cabin Group are rightfully paranoid about due to both they're personal experiences with him(his clashing ideas of leadership against Luke's, ruining his friendship with Alvin by coercing Rebecca into an affair that got her pregnant, whatever personal beef he had with Carlos that may have involved raising Sarah) and the constant death left in his wake(Roman and the North Carolina bandits sans Mike being wiped out by him, Pete sacrificing himself to buy the others time). And then with the reveal in episode three, his vaguely positive pre-established history with Clementine would cause her to be torn between helping him with his new settlement or defeating the monster he has become.
Honestly, that plot sounds worse, Kenny becoming a dictator is believable but to the extent of Carver? It's v… [view original content]
Admittedly, it's definitely one of those things that probably sounded good on paper, but it would be really tricky to pull off in a proper, balanced way. So at some point, they decided to make him an original character to make it easier on themselves.
Kenny was meant to be revealed as "Carver" during In Harm's Way, with the first two episodes constantly having him an unseen force of nature… more that the Cabin Group are rightfully paranoid about due to both they're personal experiences with him(his clashing ideas of leadership against Luke's, ruining his friendship with Alvin by coercing Rebecca into an affair that got her pregnant, whatever personal beef he had with Carlos that may have involved raising Sarah) and the constant death left in his wake(Roman and the North Carolina bandits sans Mike being wiped out by him, Pete sacrificing himself to buy the others time). And then with the reveal in episode three, his vaguely positive pre-established history with Clementine would cause her to be torn between helping him with his new settlement or defeating the monster he has become.
Honestly, that plot sounds worse, Kenny becoming a dictator is believable but to the extent of Carver? It's v… [view original content]
A few variations perhaps, but he still forgets the fact that he doesn't trust you or that he doesn't want you near his daughter, yet puts trust in Clem to look after Sarah and later on asks her to calm Sarah down.
That's what I mean:
If your relationship with him is negative, he'll clarify that he wishes that he didn't have to trust but he has to[ for the sake of protecting Rebecca and finding the others].
And the last things he says were almost certainly meant to be after he, Sarah, Mike, and Clementine are forced to work together on the walkie talkie plan and thus know how to work together for the sake of saving everyone. Assuming his death was actually the plan early on enough that the "Chop Sarita" choice wasn't blatantly based on what was going to happen before Kenny was implemented the way he ultimately was, of course.
In my opinion, the conflict didn't really help the story in any meaningful way, especially since they had to create plot holes, ignore major plot points and change characters to make it happen.
Season 2.5 in a nutshell, dude.
In what way is Nick the most developed character may I ask? I'd personally give that award to Jane for going from cold from episode 3 and showing a blurred sense of morals and justice throughout the following episodes, but of course this was tarnished by ANF.
Well, that invokes the question of "What all counts as Character Development?" Because some uses of the term seems to include character establishment, backstory, motivation, dynamics, and any amount of fleshing out in addition to how the character changes throughout the story. And in that case, Nick definitely applies for the trophy.
I would say that Sarah suffered more from both points, being the first determinant character who dies in the same episode and despite having a large role in the story, amounted to nothing of relevance.
I count him as the first victim over Sarah(who is more or less the pinnacle of that problem for the reasons you described) because after becoming determinate, his character does very little in the story and becoming a glorified background character before being killed off anticlimactically, even if his relevance was more or less over with and his death was used as a [faux] poignant plot point.
I'm only counting her because she actually has some change in character based on a decision, something that should have been prominent with all characters throughout the season.
Understandable. Might as well include Nick then for a similar reason.
I specified non-recent, though.
I guess the watch Kenny kill Carver choice or leave with Sarita didn't have as much impact on the group dynamic as we were lead to believe.
Well, Luke and to an extent Jane determinantly bring it up in a vaguely significant manner, but Jane kinda nipped much payoff for it in bud as well.
Actually, Carlos does have a few variations in his behavior in both of the first two episodes. The problem is not only is it pretty easy for… more you to get on his bad side, but his screentime and interactions in general are so limited for the sake of buildup to his major role that ended up not happening that he feels more sporadic than he was supposed to.
A few variations perhaps, but he still forgets the fact that he doesn't trust you or that he doesn't want you near his daughter, yet puts trust in Clem to look after Sarah and later on asks her to calm Sarah down.
Pretty much the same as Carlos except with a lot more interactions and screentime, as well as having the focus of his character going into hyping a conflict between him and Kenny/Carlos that limited his interactions and presence, something that Jane's sudden hyperprominence and later hijacking didn't help.
In my opinion, the conflict didn't really help the story i… [view original content]
It was given by Telltale that supposedly the game would involve Clementine and her brother, but due to the pre-existing relationship before the apocalypse her brother was cut off from the game, replaced by Lee Everett. It was also given that Clementine almost got cut from the game. Telltale was concerned that the players wouldn't care about her.
It was given by Telltale that supposedly the game would involve Clementine and her brother, but due to the pre-existing relationship before … morethe apocalypse her brother was cut off from the game, replaced by Lee Everett. It was also given that Clementine almost got cut from the game. Telltale was concerned that the players wouldn't care about her.
Comments
Not to mention that debris appeared after she fell... it literally magically made it's way over her legs just so she could be stuck and die... they couldn't give her a logical death at least? Like fuck's sake, how about dying in the shootout so that Clementine has more an incentive to agree with Kenny's harsh treatment over Arvo, or if she got taught how to use a gun, how about having Sarah survive the gunfight and surviving the whole season? I mean, it makes me wonder what the whole point of her character was if they only intended to kill her off?
She was portrayed as Clementine's potential Bestie, she showed a willingness to learn how to adapt to the apocalypse despite everyone coddling her and she even showed more galls than most of the characters at certain points (determinant most of the time, but I still count them). Then she just dies, you can save her but she dies again, you can try to get Jane to save her or leave her to try and save Sarah out of her own whim but nope, she dies anyway... Ugh, I just really fucking hate it when good characters with so much potential are killed off so meaninglessly, I mean, at least talk about what happened to her and how Clementine feels about her death.
Agreed. Although this is plot plank we're talking about, it's the same as a normal plank as you described but only hits people in the face in the most inconvenient of times.
No argument there.
And then they get into a gunfight in the next two scenes. K.
Yeah, I don't get that either. I guess (assuming it was intentional) it may have been a measure taken to ease returning players in that also doubled as a deconstructive thing when Kenny was to be revealed as "Carver". Having a new character that's visually so much like an old one when the original themself is now the villain could be interesting if done properly, but its also bound to piss a few people off.
And I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be Carlos vs. "Carver"(aka Lee vs Kenny) at first anyway, so it still doesn't make too much sense.
,
Yeah, those are serious issues as well.
Honestly, the forgotten aspect is initially a clear a reflection of laziness, but the whole thing is a combination of that, bias, and spite.
I suppose. Except Jane(who's pretty much the closest thing to a singular antagonist in the episode) being the one to visibly look at it really muddy the waters.
Maybe an irony thing?
The biggest reason Jane gets a lot of hate when it comes to this matter is that she wanted Sarah dead to begin with and is more or less the catalyst of both of her deaths. Survival or whatever is one thing, but for someone who's supposed a pragmatic expert survivalist, Jane was actually incredibly petty when it came to Sarah by:
Honestly, the way they handled and treated both of them towards the end is the main reason why I'm right on the edge of just stopping giving a shit about this game series.
Reallly now? Cause every version I've seen (albeit last year) gives you the option to tell Jane to do it anyway after she initially declines.
Me too.
Yeah, that's the probably most logic general consensus about her death being unnecessary--her general disposition as an odd duck in the group meant she easily could've survived the Season alongside Clementine, AJ, and determinately Kenny/Jane/Luke. And if they truly had to kill her off(executive mandate or otherwise), the ending of the episode was the perfect place to do it considering who catalyzed it, who the antagonist is, and the credits song that plays afterward to cut to black.
Mind you, you can say that about a number of characters, but Sarah's canon death in particular was a disgrace because unlike most of deaths in the games, her's had little to nothing to do with her actual character arc and just happens for the sake of it, with any (albeit blatantly short-lived) payoff/resignation going to Jane instead--and that's only because the cutscene where she leaves is completely unchanged regardless of if you left Sarah in the trailer. It means pretty much nothing and renders her major, even iconic existence fruitless and damn near pointless--and the/another sad thing is that it really didn't have to be that way.
The last point is particularly notable because, aside from Kenny(which actually a neat bit of fridge brilliance when you think about), she's the only character in Season 2 that actually remembers your non-recent choices and has several pieces of dialogue specifically rigged to reflect your relationship with her.
Like @prink34320 said, what is the point of learning a lesson if they're just making it much worse? They did say Season 2 Endings were going to make a huge impact in Season 3 and that is one of the worst broken promises no one should forget.
They only impacted Clementine's body, that's it. Hell, her scars/tattoo aren't even brought up or questioned by Javi or anyone else.
Not to mention the fact that "Kenny/Jane will remember that" still happens despite the fact that every old player saw them die, WITH THEIR EYES.
a fucking piece of wood killed my baby screw u telltale indeed
Sarah wasn't meant for this world... a world where wooden planks can fall on your head at any moment.
And don't leave a scratch despite the small, but noticeable blood splatter.
Sarah and Kenny fulfilled similar character device and/or storytelling purposes, go through the same basic arcs, and even ultimately die the same way.
The same gunfight were all the Russians died apart from the one we met prior who has a leg brace and was presented as a sympathetic character coincidentally and Clem's group only suffered a leg shot for Luke which was taken note of throughout the episode and Mike's injury that was never mentioned again after he yelled "I'm hit".
Ugh, the more I look into situations in Season 2, the more I dislike the way Telltale handled the season.
Honestly, Season 2 is so much of a cluster-fuck that it's hard to pinpoint who they intended to be the villain, sure there's Carver but he was only a thread for literally 2 episodes and I could see they were trying to make Kenny out as the 'bad guy' but, especially in episode 5, there was so much favoritism towards him, it was blatant that whoever wrote that episode liked Kenny far more than every other character, giving him the more emotional and lengthy scenes, references towards Lee and the father figure role right from the moment we see him again (despite having no set relationship with Clementine in the previous season) and this is even more apparent in the ANF flashbacks.
To be honest, I think pitting Kenny with someone in episode 5 was the wrong way to go, because the plot of Season 2 transitioned from a focus on the Cabin Group and the Howe's community to a focus on Kenny... again.
I still don't know why they chose the route of killing off Kenny and Jane, especially the way they did that is silly for Kenny's character and uncharacteristic of Jane's? Like, we literally had hundreds, possibly thousands of posts filled with people saying they don't want determinants to keep dying, they could've easily did something along the lines of:
I think the Alone Ending was pretty good how it was, it felt like the default ending tbh.
Also, what insults me about the flashbacks the most is that, they were only 5 minutes and yet, it didn't look like much effort was put into them... like, seriously?
I think that might be one of the reasons I loved Sarah's character and was sad to see her go, she actually expressed an outcome of my decisions (not to mention she played a large role in a few main decisions), unlike Rebecca who forgets you threaten her, Carlos who forgets he doesn't trust you, Alvin who forgets you threatened him, Luke who... well you didn't really have much relationship-changing moments with him and Nick briefly remembers a couple of things but becomes a redundant character after he can die. Bonnie is really the only other character who has a dynamic relationship with Clementine but it's based off of a single choice and she still leaves without telling you beforehand, at least with Sarah she expresses whether or not she sees you as a friend based on how you treated her throughout.
Actually, Carlos does have a few variations in his behavior in both of the first two episodes. The problem is not only is it pretty easy for you to get on his bad side, but his screentime and interactions in general are so limited for the sake of buildup to his major role that ended up not happening that he feels more sporadic than he was supposed to.
That was probably gonna be brought up during the dummied out fishing minigame with him, but it went completely out the window between episodes.
Pretty much the same as Carlos except with a lot more interactions and screentime, as well as having the focus of his character going into hyping a conflict between him and Kenny/Carlos that limited his interactions and presence, something that Jane's sudden hyperprominence and later hijacking didn't help.
To be fair there, I'm willing his case a little more slack since not only is he THE most developed character in that Season despite(or even because of) his relative irrelevance in the main story arc, but the surprising amount of thought and effort that went into making his canon death kinda balances him out in my opinion. Still, he is the first real victim of not only the determinant character curse, but also Season 2's issue with bidimentional major choices.
Does she really count, tho? Cause assuming that choice is the one where Luke dies, I don't recall many other significant effects when it comes to interacting with Bonnie.
Yep. Also, reviewing the story beats and side materials of In Harm's Way and Amid the Ruins several times makes it pretty clear that there was supposed to be more of her in the second half but the emphasis on Luke vs. Kenny and especially the developer bias (the opposite polarity of which also went around Jane) ended up selling her short.
Pretty much. One of the main problems with the Season as a whole is that there was more focus put on shallow drama and suspense for the sake of getting a rise out of people than there was on telling a truly engaging, cohesive story.
That's likely a big combination of the plan with the earliest drafts(which likely includes Vanaman's outlines) being charge about a quarter of the way through development, the developers falling back on nostalgia to keep things solid, inherent favoritism in house as you needlessly pointed out(not because you were wrong for doing so, but because it's blatantly obvious :P), and the fanbase hype encouraging them to emphasize some things while forgetting others.
Kenny was meant to be revealed as "Carver" during In Harm's Way, with the first two episodes constantly having him an unseen force of nature that the Cabin Group are rightfully paranoid about due to both they're personal experiences with him(his clashing ideas of leadership against Luke's, ruining his friendship with Alvin by coercing Rebecca into an affair that got her pregnant, whatever personal beef he had with Carlos that may have involved raising Sarah) and the constant death left in his wake(Roman and the North Carolina bandits sans Mike being wiped out by him, Pete sacrificing himself to buy the others time). And then with the reveal in episode three, his vaguely positive pre-established history with Clementine would cause her to be torn between helping him with his new settlement or defeating the monster he has become.
For one reason or another, they decided to make Carver an original character and thus created Troy and later "Bill" himself to serve that purpose, with his interest in Clementine being kept for the sake of making the conflict between him and the Cabin Group still be very Gray and Grey outside of their complicated history with him. He was also given specific animosities with Luke, Carlos, and Alvin, with Carlos in particular being another Shadow Archetype of Lee meaning the story would still have a plot involving Lee vs. Kenny in a way.
And then, they decided to include Kenny anyway and that gradually led to the ideas of him having a rivalry with Luke and an animosity with Carver as-well-as/instead-of Carlos and the creation of Sarita to give him a supporting character similar to Katjaa and Sarah. Thus the accurate hype that went with the "Sit with Luke/Kenny at Dinner" choice led to it becoming a huge focal point for the Season, even if the obvious favoritism and discrepancies in the story proper made it unstable. And if Carlos was indeed the source of most of his Season 2 arc, then the emphasis on him going crazy and becoming threat was always intended to make him Not So Different from Carver.
So while Kenny indeed always intended to be in Season 2 in some shape and form, the details shifted around enough that he undeniably seemed like a more complex character than most of what they come up with because he already had the Season 1 connection very well established in him and they combined a bunch of the ideas together to get what we got.
However, I agree that bringing him back ended up short-selling any original material that wasn't named AJ and Kenny himself an unbearably overexposed Creator's Pet.
The flashbacks were gonna be longer, such as a bigger buildup to the violence from the pissed off families in the Wellington ending, but the ones we got were cut short.
In a post Alyssa made in response to VengefulKenny's question asking what happened to Mama after David took her to the hospital at the General Questions Thread, she implies that Mama was torn apart by zombies at the hospital in front of David. Though she refers to the scenario as "her take" so whether or not it can be considered as canon is a bit iffy. Here's the post:
Yeah, that's an[other] straight up meanspirited copout.
No offense, you know we like you!
A few variations perhaps, but he still forgets the fact that he doesn't trust you or that he doesn't want you near his daughter, yet puts trust in Clem to look after Sarah and later on asks her to calm Sarah down.
In my opinion, the conflict didn't really help the story in any meaningful way, especially since they had to create plot holes, ignore major plot points and change characters to make it happen.
In what way is Nick the most developed character may I ask? I'd personally give that award to Jane for going from cold from episode 3 and showing a blurred sense of morals and justice throughout the following episodes, but of course this was tarnished by ANF. I would say that Sarah suffered more from both points, being the first determinant character who dies in the same episode and despite having a large role in the story, amounted to nothing of relevance.
I'm only counting her because she actually has some change in character based on a decision, something that should have been prominent with all characters throughout the season. I guess the watch Kenny kill Carver choice or leave with Sarita didn't have as much impact on the group dynamic as we were lead to believe.
They shouldn't have been, Telltale knew what fans were hoping for, so by making the flashbacks how they were, it felt like they intentionally wanted to crush our hopes.
Honestly, that plot sounds worse, Kenny becoming a dictator is believable but to the extent of Carver? It's very uncharacteristic of Kenny in my opinion, especially when his ideology wasn't to settle.
Admittedly, it's definitely one of those things that probably SOUNDED good on paper, but it would be really tricky to pull off in a proper, balanced way. So at some point, they decided to make him an original character to make it easier on themselves.
Admittedly, it's definitely one of those things that probably sounded good on paper, but it would be really tricky to pull off in a proper, balanced way. So at some point, they decided to make him an original character to make it easier on themselves.
That's what I mean:
If your relationship with him is negative, he'll clarify that he wishes that he didn't have to trust but he has to[ for the sake of protecting Rebecca and finding the others].
And the last things he says were almost certainly meant to be after he, Sarah, Mike, and Clementine are forced to work together on the walkie talkie plan and thus know how to work together for the sake of saving everyone. Assuming his death was actually the plan early on enough that the "Chop Sarita" choice wasn't blatantly based on what was going to happen before Kenny was implemented the way he ultimately was, of course.
Season 2.5 in a nutshell, dude.
Well, that invokes the question of "What all counts as Character Development?" Because some uses of the term seems to include character establishment, backstory, motivation, dynamics, and any amount of fleshing out in addition to how the character changes throughout the story. And in that case, Nick definitely applies for the trophy.
I count him as the first victim over Sarah(who is more or less the pinnacle of that problem for the reasons you described) because after becoming determinate, his character does very little in the story and becoming a glorified background character before being killed off anticlimactically, even if his relevance was more or less over with and his death was used as a [faux] poignant plot point.
Understandable. Might as well include Nick then for a similar reason.
I specified non-recent, though.
Well, Luke and to an extent Jane determinantly bring it up in a vaguely significant manner, but Jane kinda nipped much payoff for it in bud as well.
DAZE!
Sarah was hiding her gun under Pete's bed.
Just in the Jane flashback or is there another instance?
It was given by Telltale that supposedly the game would involve Clementine and her brother, but due to the pre-existing relationship before the apocalypse her brother was cut off from the game, replaced by Lee Everett. It was also given that Clementine almost got cut from the game. Telltale was concerned that the players wouldn't care about her.
I know you got this from wiki.