Those three games aren't finished, there are people who wait until the product is completely finished before they buy or play it.
These are Telltale's Minecraft, DC and Marvel stories which are the newest of the bunch.
Telltale is notoriously seen as the company that makes choice-based games where choices don't seem to matter (I argue they do) and I've seen many fans of Life Is Strange glorify the game for its choices and consequences.
Life Is Strange is a more relatable game, apart from the time travel. It's a game that provides a slice of life, unlike Telltale's stories about: surviving in a post apocalyptic world, solving the murder of fables, going on a mission to obtain a relic, fighting to the death for your house or being Batman etc.
It's also made by Square Enix, a far more popular and well-known company.
Last time I checked, "Batman: The Enemy Within" and "Minecraft: Story Mode: Season Two" are the second installments of their series, as "Before The Storm" is to the Life Is Strange series.
Guardians is an unequal comparison, though, yeah.
I kind of see what you're saying, Hiro—but the point of juxtaposing the sales and the all-time peak of all these games is to demonstrate that the demand for the current game of one company is higher than the demand for the current games of another.
Comparing the premiere of "Before The Storm" to the premiere of "The Walking Dead: Season Two" addresses a different situation entirely. And, don't get me wrong, this second situation is just as valuable to examine. It answers the question: how do the first episode of Telltale's The Walking Dead and Life Is Strange's second installments fare when put side by side? But the answer to this question speaks about the customer response to these particular series and their developing companies at a particular point in time; and not of the current state of their developing companies, which is where this thread is getting at.
Probably not the best comparison. Life is Strange: BtS is the first direct game connected to LiS since release. These types of games tend to be more remembered by the last entry, so a better comparison would be WDS2: E1.
Personally, I'm not tired. While I do get annoyed sometimes when seeing an event such as: [[a character gets mad at you for not doing someth… moreing, when in reality you never truly had a chance to tell them earlier in the series, despite you wanting to]], there are good things about Telltale that I still like. I enjoy these 3 new series by Telltale and think that they're good step-ups for them, in various ways.
But, I think the problem is some of these sales might be due to that Fatigue. Telltale uses the same formula for many of their games, with not too much innovation in each. They reuse some story tropes and maybe add in a bit of forced drama. Some people might notice this and just say: "I don't like what I'm seeing. I expected these games to get better and larger as the company grew, but I keep seeing the same things in different masks..."
Or, it could be that it is because of Quality recently. I know there were quite a few people elsewh… [view original content]
You don't get his point. Minecraft S2 and Batman The Enemy Within aren't direct sequels. The only thing comparable is The Walking Dead S2, which is a direct sequel.
What's a good example of sequels? The Desmond saga of Assassin's Creed.
Telltale sucks at sequels, they should just stop. Lol
Last time I checked, "Batman: The Enemy Within" and "Minecraft: Story Mode: Season Two" are the second installments of their series, as "Bef… moreore The Storm" is to the Life Is Strange series.
Guardians is an unequal comparison, though, yeah.
I kind of see what you're saying, Hiro—but the point of juxtaposing the sales and the all-time peak of all these games is to demonstrate that the demand for the current game of one company is higher than the demand for the current games of another.
Comparing the premiere of "Before The Storm" to the premiere of "The Walking Dead: Season Two" addresses a different situation entirely. And, don't get me wrong, this second situation is just as valuable to examine. It answers the question: how do the first episode of Telltale's The Walking Dead and Life Is Strange's second installments fare when put side by side? But the answer to this question speaks about the customer response to these particular serie… [view original content]
I'm going to be honest with you here, both Batman: The Enemy Within and MCSM S2 both feel like sequels, the only difference is that they deal with new threats within their plot.
You don't get his point. Minecraft S2 and Batman The Enemy Within aren't direct sequels. The only thing comparable is The Walking Dead S2, w… morehich is a direct sequel.
What's a good example of sequels? The Desmond saga of Assassin's Creed.
Telltale sucks at sequels, they should just stop. Lol
Minecraft S2 and Batman The Enemy Within aren't direct sequels. The only thing comparable is The Walking Dead S2, which is a direct sequel.
What?
I don't understand, in what vein is TWD:S2 a sequel to the first season that MC:S2 and TEW aren't? The fact that a sequel "sucks" doesn't mean it can be automatically disregarded as a continuation of the original game. They take place in the same universe - follow on from the same stories, characters and events. They are sequels.
You don't get his point. Minecraft S2 and Batman The Enemy Within aren't direct sequels. The only thing comparable is The Walking Dead S2, w… morehich is a direct sequel.
What's a good example of sequels? The Desmond saga of Assassin's Creed.
Telltale sucks at sequels, they should just stop. Lol
As far as most people on this forum are concerned, quality's been dead since 2014
But everyone here has a severe case of the sunken cost fallacy, so they have decided on the rather unorthodox move known as 'riding the nosediving plane straight into the ground, complaining about the fact that the plane is going down instead of just getting off the plane'
Did you even play the games yet? They don't follow on the same story or cast.
MCSM S2 started an entirely new story with no continutation or even references whatsoever. The season 2 title is misleading.
Batman referenced a few things here and there, but did not directly continue with any existing characters other than John, Batman, Lucius, Gordon and Regina. There was still story potential with existing characters from season 1, but Telltale decided they wanted to attract newcomers, and continued and referenced to the absolute minimum. (Whether Alfred has an eyepatch and whether you owed John a favor). They didn't even take account to our choices in season 1 such as whether we burned the tickets or not.
Minecraft S2 and Batman The Enemy Within aren't direct sequels. The only thing comparable is The Walking Dead S2, which is a direct sequel.
… more
What?
I don't understand, in what vein is TWD:S2 a sequel to the first season that MC:S2 and TEW aren't? The fact that a sequel "sucks" doesn't mean it can be automatically disregarded as a continuation of the original game. They take place in the same universe - follow on from the same stories, characters and events. They are sequels.
I'm going to be honest with you here, both Batman: The Enemy Within and MCSM S2 both feel like sequels, the only difference is that they deal with new threats within their plot.
Did you even play the games yet? They don't follow on the same story or cast.
MCSM S2 started an entirely new story with no continutation… more or even references whatsoever. The season 2 title is misleading.
Batman referenced a few things here and there, but did not directly continue with any existing characters other than John, Batman, Lucius, Gordon and Regina. There was still story potential with existing characters from season 1, but Telltale decided they wanted to attract newcomers, and continued and referenced to the absolute minimum. (Whether Alfred has an eyepatch and whether you owed John a favor). They didn't even take account to our choices in season 1 such as whether we burned the tickets or not.
Multiple references to the previous game, multiple characters from the previous game, including characters from the DLC, being either mentioned or outright appearing, the fact that the main villain of S2 is only interested in Jesse due to the achievements he accomplished in S1, outright improvements on previous gameplay mechanics etc. MCSM S2 has felt like a continuation through and through.
As much as I love Kate, I don't think she's important enough for the story to have a game of her own. Before The Storm seems to be telling the story behind the Tornado, Spirits and potetially Max's power. Kate was the one that triggered Max into trying to find Rachel Amber, to help/avenge her, but she never knew anything. She never knew of the Dark Room, of Max's powers, of the Tornado, anything really. What story could Kate tell? Specially when two waaaay more important characters (Chloe and Rachel) have tons of misteries and stories to tell?
It would have been much better if Kate Marsh was the protagonist of this game, the fact that she was a 100% better written character than both Max and Chloe. I even hate Rachel Amber, surprisingly.
My only nitpick (and it's not just you, it is a lot of people in this forum) is the adamant idea that 2 hour episodes are a solution.
Now, let me say this first. I would like an episode to be 2 hours. I enjoy spending more time in the world of the characters and settings. If I had to choose between 2 hours of high quality and one hour of high quality, I would pick 2 hours without hesitation.
With that being said, I disagree with TTG having ANY target goal for their episodes. They are making (or supposed to be making, depending on your view of TTG) story driven game. The narrative determines the length. If an episode's story and pace only allows for 1.5 hours, then let it be. If 3 hours is needed to cover that episode's story, then let it be 3. I've said it before, I'd be fine if TTG broke the standard of 5 episodes per season (only 3 games have broken that trend). Let the story dictate the number of episodes and the length of each. Let the quality determine the quantity. I was actually a bit critical of TTG for staying to an 90 minute mark during season 2. Episodes 2 and 3 could have used more time along with an extra 6th episode to balance out the flow. I think episode 3 in Season 1 could have been trimmed down significantly.
Like I said, I'm not coming at you specifically. It's just a small (and I emphasize again, it is a small) nitpick I have when I see people mentioning episode lengths and the phrase "2 hours". Other than that, I agree with all your other points with no questions.
Personally, I'm not tired. While I do get annoyed sometimes when seeing an event such as: [[a character gets mad at you for not doing someth… moreing, when in reality you never truly had a chance to tell them earlier in the series, despite you wanting to]], there are good things about Telltale that I still like. I enjoy these 3 new series by Telltale and think that they're good step-ups for them, in various ways.
But, I think the problem is some of these sales might be due to that Fatigue. Telltale uses the same formula for many of their games, with not too much innovation in each. They reuse some story tropes and maybe add in a bit of forced drama. Some people might notice this and just say: "I don't like what I'm seeing. I expected these games to get better and larger as the company grew, but I keep seeing the same things in different masks..."
Or, it could be that it is because of Quality recently. I know there were quite a few people elsewh… [view original content]
No, you're right. I don't care that much for the length of the episodes. As long as the episode fulfilled what it needed to fulfill and it was an enjoyable experience I'm fine with it.
I just added that mark of having at least one 2 hour episode because a lot of people have been requesting that recently. And I'm okay with it.
But Telltale shouldn't fill their episodes with fluff or rush certain episodes if they don't need to.
I'm totally with you on this. And if I wasn't, no offence taken. I respect your opinion either way.
My only nitpick (and it's not just you, it is a lot of people in this forum) is the adamant idea that 2 hour episodes are a solution.
Now… more, let me say this first. I would like an episode to be 2 hours. I enjoy spending more time in the world of the characters and settings. If I had to choose between 2 hours of high quality and one hour of high quality, I would pick 2 hours without hesitation.
With that being said, I disagree with TTG having ANY target goal for their episodes. They are making (or supposed to be making, depending on your view of TTG) story driven game. The narrative determines the length. If an episode's story and pace only allows for 1.5 hours, then let it be. If 3 hours is needed to cover that episode's story, then let it be 3. I've said it before, I'd be fine if TTG broke the standard of 5 episodes per season (only 3 games have broken that trend). Let the story dictate the number of episodes and the length of e… [view original content]
My only nitpick (and it's not just you, it is a lot of people in this forum) is the adamant idea that 2 hour episodes are a solution.
Now… more, let me say this first. I would like an episode to be 2 hours. I enjoy spending more time in the world of the characters and settings. If I had to choose between 2 hours of high quality and one hour of high quality, I would pick 2 hours without hesitation.
With that being said, I disagree with TTG having ANY target goal for their episodes. They are making (or supposed to be making, depending on your view of TTG) story driven game. The narrative determines the length. If an episode's story and pace only allows for 1.5 hours, then let it be. If 3 hours is needed to cover that episode's story, then let it be 3. I've said it before, I'd be fine if TTG broke the standard of 5 episodes per season (only 3 games have broken that trend). Let the story dictate the number of episodes and the length of e… [view original content]
Telltale has progressively cut gameplay features such as hubs from their games, with some episodes of ANF having literally no free walks. With each game, they seem to become closer and closer to become a literal compilation of cutscenes where you get this minimal input through dialogue choices which don't really affect the overall scene. This combined with the choice handling still being... not great (further removing motivation to play these "games" rather than just watch them) and their skill at writing stories having gone so down the trash bin you can literally find erotica online more engaging and depthful than their latest TWD entry, "A New Frontier", and I wish I was exaggerating (further making their already unnecessary to play yourself games, skippable) has obviously turned most people away from these "games".
LiS, on the other hand, seems to be expanding even more on the hub part. Whilst telltale has become 90% cutscene and 10% hubs and in some cases, 0% hubs, LiS seems to do the exact opposite: 90% hubs, 10% cutscenes. This combined with many side quests and optional conversations and actions (such as putting money in your mom's purse), side quests and conversations which are not at all distracting from your main objective, make such an engaging and immersive experience that it truly amazed me. Also, things such as the diary, the text messages, the hubs filled with pictures to look at, text to read and graffiti to find, make this game fill that much bigger in terms of content, not to mentionit adds great depth into the setting, protagonist mind state, personality and perspective to all those things, including other characters.
And I'm literally only half way through "Awake".
Whether or not you like the themes or plot of LiS, its formula is obviously engaging way more people than the Telltale formula has been able to. The fact that Telltale's highest selling game, The Walking Dead Season 1, is closer to LiS's formula than all the others which strayed away from such formula and therefore sold less, not even half than what TWDS1 did, further proves that the LiS formula works way better.
Please Telltale, take some lessons from the competition, for they are clearly doing something right.
Most people who nowadays criticize Telltale but stick around are people who've been sticking with the company for some years now. That obviously creates attachment. If immediately getting detached from something you once liked (hell, loved) and have been following for years now were as easy as clicking a button or "getting off a plane" most of us would've already done it. Thing is, attachment doesn't work like that.
Not to mention that criticizing something is often the means to get it to improve.
But by all means, go ahead, and keep painting us as irrational assholes.
As far as most people on this forum are concerned, quality's been dead since 2014
But everyone here has a severe case of the sunken cost … morefallacy, so they have decided on the rather unorthodox move known as 'riding the nosediving plane straight into the ground, complaining about the fact that the plane is going down instead of just getting off the plane'
Most people who nowadays criticize Telltale but stick around are people who've been sticking with the company for some years now. That obvio… moreusly creates attachment. If immediately getting detached from something you once liked (hell, loved) and have been following for years now were as easy as clicking a button or "getting off a plane" most of us would've already done it. Thing is, attachment doesn't work like that.
Not to mention that criticizing something is often the means to get it to improve.
But by all means, go ahead, and keep painting us as irrational assholes.
You don't get attached to video game characters? Or characters in any story, not necessarily just video games.
Yes, I am attached to characters I've followed for years, in books, shows, films, and video games. I don't see how that makes me a 14 yo Tumblr user? I'm pretty sure it's a pretty common phenomenon for people to have an emotional reaction to fiction, hell, I think it's actually the whole point???
If you could explain your thesis, I'm more than welcome to listen.
As far as most people on this forum are concerned, quality's been dead since 2014
But everyone here has a severe case of the sunken cost … morefallacy, so they have decided on the rather unorthodox move known as 'riding the nosediving plane straight into the ground, complaining about the fact that the plane is going down instead of just getting off the plane'
Have you seen the past 3 Telltale games? They've improved since ANF. They've got hubs. BIG hubs. They've got great choices. Dialogue has improved significantly, where the options change based on previous events or even now change how other characters may think of you.
Yes, LIS has a lot more and their episodes are much bigger than what Telltale offers right now, but that's mainly because they probably have a bigger budget and that they use a different engine. Telltale still tries to keep that Point-and-Click feel of games, while giving them an engaging story... while Square/Dontnod/whomever is behind the wheel is mainly trying to make story-based games of their own.
Telltale has progressively cut gameplay features such as hubs from their games, with some episodes of ANF having literally no free walks. Wi… moreth each game, they seem to become closer and closer to become a literal compilation of cutscenes where you get this minimal input through dialogue choices which don't really affect the overall scene. This combined with the choice handling still being... not great (further removing motivation to play these "games" rather than just watch them) and their skill at writing stories having gone so down the trash bin you can literally find erotica online more engaging and depthful than their latest TWD entry, "A New Frontier", and I wish I was exaggerating (further making their already unnecessary to play yourself games, skippable) has obviously turned most people away from these "games".
LiS, on the other hand, seems to be expanding even more on the hub part. Whilst telltale has become 90% cutscene and 10% hu… [view original content]
Alright, I'll admit that I was being presumptuous about people finding it easy to walk away from things. It's never the same for everyone. For better or worse, I've personally learned to bail on things that obviously aren't going in a direction I like anymore. I've had to do that to multiple different things; games, shows, people... many of which I was actively involved in for years. Things I most certainly cared about. So I guess maybe I'm the troubled war vet that's all used to it or something, I dunno.
Either way, I still firmly believe that there's a point where if something just doesn't seem to be improving, no matter what you try to say or do, there comes a point where you're no longer obligated to stick by it, regardless of how long you've stuck by it in the past. Which goes to the plane analogy I was using... if a plane is going down, and it doesn't seem like anyone or anything is able to divert its course, there's a point where you're no longer expected to stay on it... where getting yourself a parachute and jumping out becomes the more lucrative-- or to be brutally blunt, sensible-- option.
Walking away can be difficult, true... but it's not impossible, either. And quite frankly, there's times where attachments simply aren't healthy, or end up turning into something that is no longer healthy. Where the longer you stay with it... the higher the chance that when you inevitably have to give it up, it'll be all the harder to accept. And from the way I'm looking at it, that's the direction this all seems to be heading. Whether or not it's at that point yet, I guess it's up for debate. But given the current state of affairs? I'm not too positive about there being a happy ending at the end of all of this, should people decide to see it all the way through.
If you don't mind me getting a bit grim-- there's going to be a point in your life where you will have to give up something you care about... or where something you care about will end up leaving your life for good. You might not have an opportunity to prevent that from happening, but you do have an opportunity to lessen that blow by accepting the direction things are heading in, and making peace with that reality.
And let me reiterate that I'm not saying to completely drop and bury everything entirely. I'm trying to say stop putting further investment and stake into it. Hold on to all the good moments, all the things worth remembering, but don't let the things that came after continue to drag you down with them.
No one needs to walk away for good, either. Sometimes giving something no attention sends a stronger message than acknowledging the faults upfront. You can construe any type of publicity as good publicity... but if you're not being given anything to work with, you have nothing to make publicity out of. In the grand scheme of things, you're basically made irrelevant, and you're forced to make changes in order to make a name for yourself again. And you know what? Maybe that's exactly what Telltale needs. Not a constant stream of public critique and acknowledgment... just the good old fashioned cold shoulder. Maybe the problem you all have has an alternative solution that is as equally effective.
Or maybe I'm just looking at this whole situation in a completely different perspective than you guys are. I have a tendency to be a lateral thinker sometimes.
Most people who nowadays criticize Telltale but stick around are people who've been sticking with the company for some years now. That obvio… moreusly creates attachment. If immediately getting detached from something you once liked (hell, loved) and have been following for years now were as easy as clicking a button or "getting off a plane" most of us would've already done it. Thing is, attachment doesn't work like that.
Not to mention that criticizing something is often the means to get it to improve.
But by all means, go ahead, and keep painting us as irrational assholes.
Hubs are an essential part of Point and Click. Telltale hubs are specifically just pointing and clicking. Telltale dropped the "Games" part from their name, deliberately. Telltale chose, deliberately, to make their games more cutscene based and to neglect the hub department, the actual, Point and Click. It all got gradually more cutscene based from game to game until we got to ANF where we had two whole episodes without hubs. This was deliberate. Not a budget or engine restriction.
I've watched both Batman and Minecraft (only the premiere) and they are clearly trying, hopefully, due to the ANF backlash (because the whole point of the backlash and the hate and the criticism was actually to have them improve, believe it or not).
I still didn't find them as engaging as BTS hubs. I'm too tired today to figure out why, so I may update this in the future if you're interested, but the content of the hubs in LiS just feels more... interesting and focused? Like the narrative actually, drives you through the hub. I find that to be less in Telltale Games. As a completionist, I mostly end up forcing myself to click everything in Telltale hubs, in LiS I was so immersed it seemed to... flow? I guess it has to do how they tie narrative and hub/current objective and hub.
There are also the side quests. Lots of them, which will most likely end up mattering just like in the first game. I'm not sure I can say the same for the Minecraft side quests, and well, Batman had none if I remember correctly. Hopefully in the future.
Side characters as well. Those are pretty much non-existent in Telltale Games (I can only really recall Frank in Batman, and his screen time and dialogue were pretty short). The point of side characters, characters who are not directly involved in the main plot and are usually seen and delved upon in hubs, is to give more life and depth to the setting, which is a damn important thing, yet Telltale has hardly done them, whilst LiS has, like, a shit ton. A shame. Again, hopefully in the future.
You see, the path to improving these hubs, in my honest opinion, is to make them more similar to LiS. I firmly believe that it's a way more engaging formula, and the overall public seems to think so too. So I still hope Telltale looks at BTS, and takes some notes. Some people don't enjoy the teenage drama/cringe from LiS, and that's fine, so if Telltale took some of the aspects wich make LiS hubs so great and added them to their games with their own themes and IP's, everyone would honestly end up winning.
Dialogue has improved significantly, where the options change based on previous events or even now change how other characters may think of you.
I believe you're talking about the character panels by the end of "The Enigma"? I find it wiser to see if they actually pay off in future episodes before starting already praising them. I totally hope they succeed at making those little choices matter though.
Have you seen the past 3 Telltale games? They've improved since ANF. They've got hubs. BIG hubs. They've got great choices. Dialogue has im… moreproved significantly, where the options change based on previous events or even now change how other characters may think of you.
Yes, LIS has a lot more and their episodes are much bigger than what Telltale offers right now, but that's mainly because they probably have a bigger budget and that they use a different engine. Telltale still tries to keep that Point-and-Click feel of games, while giving them an engaging story... while Square/Dontnod/whomever is behind the wheel is mainly trying to make story-based games of their own.
Spoilers for A New Frontier and Before the Storm are in this post. You've been warned!
Also, all of this is my opinion. I apologise if you disagree with how I word things, or my opinions, but an opinion isn't right or wrong. I respect each and every idea being laid out here, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, and I simply just wanted to add mine to the pile.
Okay? Okay. Awesome!
I completely and totally agree with the OP. If you keep releasing lower quality products, word will get around and people will stop buying from you.
I think there's a reason the new Life is Strange game is selling pretty well. Before the Storm, to me, feels like a labor of love and the result of people sitting down and saying "You'll never guess what story we want to tell you!". My first playthrough of Awake took me nearly FOUR hours. For one episode. Admittedly, I was so amazed by the idea of a new choice-based game having hubs that I spent a good while just walking around looking at stuff. There's an entirely optional dungeons and dragons esque sequence, which can take up to half an hour. And that's OPTIONAL, I have to emphasise. Most Telltale episodes, nowadays, are about an hour twenty - at least, that's the time I got on my playthrough of A New Frontier, per episode, roughly speaking. A New Frontier, to me, comes across as less 'look what we made and come play it we put lots of effort in and we just want you to love us!', instead coming across as "people like The Walking Dead so let's pump out another one". It's a product, more than an idea.
I know some people would leap up to shriek "quality over quantity, BHBrowne!" However, I'm inclined to argue that Telltale has had neither, as of late. Further, Telltale even went on record in an AMA and said they'd prefer shorter episodes of quality - I believe their exact wording was they'd prefer "better minutes". I don't want to speak for anyone but myself, here, but A New Frontier - and likely many other Telltale games of late, I haven't indulged them since my purchase of A New Frontier - simply haven't been similar to works like The Walking Dead: Season One, The Wolf Among Us and Tales From The Borderlands.
I don't go into games wanting to hate them, though I can see how someone may get this impression from how negative I seem in most my posts on this forum. I go into games with as open a mind as possible, and - on rare occasions, such as Before the Storm - I can be genuinely excited for them. That being said, just because I'm complacent when I first start a game, I'm still going to say 'this is shit' if I think it's shit. Telltale, in my honest opinion, don't seem to realise what about their games people liked. The argument they had to make episodes shorter because people needed to go to the toilet or get something to eat is, in my opinion, absurd. I don't play lengthy games like Life is Strange and The Last of Us and complain that I need to rest my eyes, soon. The line of thinking that every gamer has short attention spans, and so Telltale should make their games shorter, is so dumbfounding it boggles my mind. There's no such thing as 'too long', in my mind. That being said, four hours of dross is going to be, well, dross.
Thankfully, however, Before the Storm is anything but dross. It's emotional, it's interesting, it's light hearted and it's soul crushing all at the same time. And that's the first episode. The premiere.
Take this scene, for example:
I'm not saying that this needs to be in every single game, or the game is awful by default, but stuff like this isn't to be sniffed at. It puts a slight spin on game mechanics - forcing the player to select 'SMASH', no matter what button press - it delves into Chloe's mindset about her dad dying when she sees the destroyed car, we have a heartfelt moment between two awkward and uncertain people and, as a cherry on top, the music sets the perfect atmosphere - speaking of, Before the Storm got a brand new soundtrack (which I'm listening to right now, as I write this!). No reused music, it's all made for this game. Mostly just a thing that I appreciate, but you know. Chloe's voice acting is spot on here, in my opinion. It all comes across as genuine, and there's a clear passion being sunken into every little detail.
Nothing really comes close to this scene during Ties That Bind: Part One, which was - as you all likely know - the premier episode of A New Frontier. Short of Mariana dying, and she had no development so I don't really care that much, nothing was especially emotional. And there definitely wasn't, in my opinion, a scene as well done as this in the entirety of A New Frontier. Which is quite telling, to be blunt, that the first episode of a prequel 'spin-off' season can evoke more emotion in ten minutes than A New Frontier can in several hours.
On that subject, I'm also inclined to point out that I felt more in the first episode of Before the Storm than I felt in the entirety of A New Frontier. That's not to mention I could probably make it pretty far through the first three episodes of A New Frontier in the time it takes me to play through one episode of Before the Storm. A story, at its core, needs to make its audience feel. To make us think, and ask questions, and immerse us. A New Frontier fumbled the ball in these regards. Before the Storm made me grin the biggest grin when I sat back and thought about it, after my first playthrough. Because it proved, to me, that choice-based games aren't the problem.
Telltale is.
The difference between Before the Storm and most recent Telltale games, in my opinion, is - and this is going to probably sound kind of nasty - there's, at a fundamental level, more effort put into Before the Storm. Even simple, yet fundamental, things like animations and facial expressions are carefully created. And before people shrug this off - in A New Frontier Clementine doesn't even visibly cry, despite her voice actress putting on a crying voice. No tears on an animated character during a death scene. Meanwhile, Chloe visibly cries - both her voice actor and her character model - in an emotionally charged scene.
The difference in effort between Telltale and Deck Nine, in these recent endeavors, is really apparent to me. I get that game making isn't easy, but it does have to be called into question - in my opinion - why Telltale seems to think that less quality is worth more? Art is incredibly subjective, but effort isn't. I can tell the difference between, for example, a carefully constructed five thousand word essay and a hastily shambled together one hundred word thing done the night before I needed it done. That's sort of what these two games feel like! Before the Storm is the carefully and lovingly written thesis, with quotes and diagrams and love and dedication put into it, with a couple of errors that can be rectified or looked over. Meanwhile, A New Frontier is the scrunched up piece of paper that looks like it's been in a puddle, covered in crossing outs, scribbles and what looks like a crude drawing of a penis in the top right corner. It all reeks of 'last minute', of 'I wonder how little I can get away with' and 'that will do'.
I think, to bring this back on topic, that I completely agree with you. People definitely aren't fatigued by Telltale-esque games, as much as they're fatigued by lower-effort Telltale-esque games. I don't like to be bashing of any particular topic, so this probably makes me look like a hypocrite, but I also feel that criticism is what paves the way for improvement. Change never came about from complacency - it came about from experimenting, asking questions, and pushing for a better tomorrow.
Thanks for reading my ramble/rant thing, just really needed to get it off my chest. I firmly agree with the point you've made, and reading through this thread has been super interesting!
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Sorry for being so general about things but it's a bit hard to address and reply to a post this big.
Sometimes giving something no attention sends a stronger message than acknowledging the faults upfront.
I'm... not sure about that. We've hated, and hated, and hated, and hated on ANF. We've complained for months, and keep doing it. But in all honesty, I believe it bore fruit. I believe the reason Telltale staff has been coming to the forums for feedback is because we made our voices heard. The reason they seem to be focusing more on hubs again is because we made our voices heard. I believe the reason Clem is back to being the protagonist and PC on the fourth Season is because we made our voices heard. I'm sure that TWAU S2 is happening because others made their voices heard.
Silence would've gotten us nowhere. If we just kept shut, if we didn't complain, hate, criticised, etc. then nothing would've changed. And I'm sorry if that was annoying for you people that (somehow) were able to enjoy ANF, but we had to complain, and complain loud, so that they would hear us.
Voicing criticism is done so that something improves, or at least to leave an example for other people of what to do and not do. And yes, there are people who will claim they don't believe in any future improvement, yet are still here and still complain. Don't ask me to make sense of it. I'm not one of them. Most of "us" aren't. At least from what I've seen. Maybe those people just secretly believe in improvement, yet just try to show they feel otherwise. Maybe they are just angry. I don't know. I know that I've been carefully and thoroughly explaining my criticism since day one, so it hopefully improves. I know that I've participated in Alyssa threads, and will keep on doing so, so it hopefully improves. So I didn't feel it made us justice to simply paint us as irrational assholes.
Alright, I'll admit that I was being presumptuous about people finding it easy to walk away from things. It's never the same for everyone. F… moreor better or worse, I've personally learned to bail on things that obviously aren't going in a direction I like anymore. I've had to do that to multiple different things; games, shows, people... many of which I was actively involved in for years. Things I most certainly cared about. So I guess maybe I'm the troubled war vet that's all used to it or something, I dunno.
Either way, I still firmly believe that there's a point where if something just doesn't seem to be improving, no matter what you try to say or do, there comes a point where you're no longer obligated to stick by it, regardless of how long you've stuck by it in the past. Which goes to the plane analogy I was using... if a plane is going down, and it doesn't seem like anyone or anything is able to divert its course, there's a point where yo… [view original content]
Even simple, yet fundamental, things like animations and facial expressions are carefully created. And before people shrug this off - in A New Frontier Clementine doesn't even visibly cry, despite her voice actress putting on a crying voice. No tears on an animated character during a death scene. Meanwhile, Chloe visibly cries - both her voice actor and her character model - in an emotionally charged scene.
If I can be so inclined to be that guy-- while Telltale has tended to drop the ball when it comes to characters crying (at least in the sense of not being bothered to add tears), and while they don't exactly have the best character animation in general... I still think Telltale's facial expressions are something they have done consistently well. Dare I say that Telltale's facial animations are some of the most lively and distinct I've seen, short of mocapped stuff. While there was an improvement over the original LiS, the facial animations in BtS still feel a bit stilted and stiff... not always getting the emotion all the way across. They just don't feel lively enough to me. I mean, there's points where they actually do a great job at properly conveying the emotion (like the aforementioned Chloe scene), but I still think it's relative hit and miss for most parts. I suppose uncanny valley is the best way that I can think of to describe it-- it's almost there, but something's just not quite right.
Telltale might be very stubborn about sticking to their hand-animated ways (for better or worse), but facial expressions are one thing they have consistently done pretty damn well, all things considered (...well, except for a few characters in ANF, like that frickin' fanny pack guy)
Disclaimer thing:
Spoilers for A New Frontier and Before the Storm are in this post. You've been warned!
Also, all of this is my opini… moreon. I apologise if you disagree with how I word things, or my opinions, but an opinion isn't right or wrong. I respect each and every idea being laid out here, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, and I simply just wanted to add mine to the pile.
Okay? Okay. Awesome!
I completely and totally agree with the OP. If you keep releasing lower quality products, word will get around and people will stop buying from you.
I think there's a reason the new Life is Strange game is selling pretty well. Before the Storm, to me, feels like a labor of love and the result of people sitting down and saying "You'll never guess what story we want to tell you!". My first playthrough of Awake took me nearly FOUR hours. For one episode. Admittedly, I was so amazed by the idea of a new choice-based game… [view original content]
And yes, there are people who will claim they don't believe in any future improvement, yet are still here and still complain.
For what it's worth, these were the kinds of folks I had in mind with my original post. Although I'll admit that I sorta lumped everyone else into that category as well.
I'm... not exactly the best at articulating how I feel about things. But I wasn't deliberately out to try to generalize everyone. More attempting to question the rationale of some of the people here, and how they go about trying to solve the perceived problems with Telltale.
I'll just go on record here-- I'm all for criticism. Constructive or harsh. I mean hell, even I've said some relatively unkind stuff about Telltale in the past, even after I became a mod. But with that being said, I'm not always in agreement with how some people here go about voicing their complaints/criticism. There's people that are quite reasonable and civil about it (and well-earned kudos to those guys, you probably know who you are), but there's this other portion of people that I can't help but feel like they're not going about it in the best way possible. I mean, I understand why they do it, but I'm not sure I'm fully on board with it. It might get the job done, but you can't help but wonder if there's was a cleaner alternative. Like, imagine instead of using a flyswatter to kill a fly, you just pick up a chair and start swinging it around the room. Maybe it'll get the job done and kill the little bastard... but there was probably a more precise method of solving that problem, you know what I mean?
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Sorry for being so general about things but it's a bit hard to address and reply to a post thi… mores big.
Sometimes giving something no attention sends a stronger message than acknowledging the faults upfront.
I'm... not sure about that. We've hated, and hated, and hated, and hated on ANF. We've complained for months, and keep doing it. But in all honesty, I believe it bore fruit. I believe the reason Telltale staff has been coming to the forums for feedback is because we made our voices heard. The reason they seem to be focusing more on hubs again is because we made our voices heard. I believe the reason Clem is back to being the protagonist and PC on the fourth Season is because we made our voices heard. I'm sure that TWAU S2 is happening because others made their voices heard.
Silence would've gotten us nowhere. If we just kept shut, if we didn't complain, hate, criticised, etc. the… [view original content]
Deltino said:
It might get the job done, but you can't help but wonder if there's was a cleaner alternative. Like, imagine instead of using a flyswatter to kill a fly, you just pick up a chair and start swinging it around the room. Maybe it'll get the job done and kill the little bastard... but there was probably a more precise method of solving that problem, you know what I mean?
Yeah, like using a machine gun or an uzi instead of a chair!
And yes, there are people who will claim they don't believe in any future improvement, yet are still here and still complain.
For wh… moreat it's worth, these were the kinds of folks I had in mind with my original post. Although I'll admit that I sorta lumped everyone else into that category as well.
I'm... not exactly the best at articulating how I feel about things. But I wasn't deliberately out to try to generalize everyone. More attempting to question the rationale of some of the people here, and how they go about trying to solve the perceived problems with Telltale.
I'll just go on record here-- I'm all for criticism. Constructive or harsh. I mean hell, even I've said some relatively unkind stuff about Telltale in the past, even after I became a mod. But with that being said, I'm not always in agreement with how some people here go about voicing their complaints/criticism. There's people that are quite reasonable and civil about … [view original content]
Yea, I'll go ahead and admit that was mostly me making a straw-man fallacy, looking back on it, and that on the whole Telltale have been pretty awesome at animations and stuff. Emphasis on 'on the whole'. Especially considering they've hand animated versus using motion capture and stuff.
I think what I'm mostly peeved about is that, back during the release of Thicker Than Blood and From the Gallows, there were a fair couple of people whose faces weren't quite 'right'. A couple that spring to mind are fanny-pack dude (as you mentioned), Clint if you accept the deal - AFAIK his face has been fixed, as of recently, but on launch he just sort of seemed to vapidly stare off into the distance as he was held hostage - and then there's the lady in From the Gallows, the one who lost her husband and kid. Fern, I think? Don't get me wrong, Life is Strange definitely ... has some interesting faces, especially in the first season, but on the other hand I can't really say that they've detracted that much from a scene, unlike certain moments that I - admittedly - cherry picked from A New Frontier, where I'll confess to having a good couple of giggles over fanny-pack mcgee being like an unfeeling Terminator, even as Javier was getting stabbed. Different strokes for different folks, though, so I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other.
Actually, I guess I am saying one thing is better than the other. Well, shit.
While I'm not saying that the game is completely broken and unplayable, I can't help but wonder how stuff like this slips through the cracks, if that makes sense? In conversation, you can tell almost as much about a person by what their face is doing, as opposed to just the words being said. In previous stuff of Telltale's, their face animations and stuff have really consistent and well done, so to see it go from not having any major complaints about it to seeing people staring at Javier blankly as they go about their business is more jarring than the more 'consistent' hit-and-miss of other games. For example, while I don't especially like watching a woman get stabbed, I really think that the scene where Kenny can stab Jane in No Going Back is a really haunting, yet fantastically put together, animation. You have Jane clawing at Kenny's face and her fear crossing all over her face, her movements getting slower as the knife goes deeper, and you have Kenny lurch off of her and put his head in his hands. Not all of their animation and stuff is bad, in fact I tend to think it's pretty good, but I do think the characters which didn't have working facial animations, on launch, do need to be criticised. Kinda. Even though, again, I don't like watching a teenager die in A New Frontier, I was kind of surprised Clementine's face didn't have anything like tears, despite the fact that in both previous seasons they had no difficulty making Clementine - and, by proxy, me - cry. That being said, maybe I'm nitpicking. Probably nitpicking.
Looking back, my point definitely came out sideways. My bad! I completely agree with your point though. On the whole, Telltale have had pretty great animations in the past and, even in the present we're still seeing some nice stuff. It was mostly me ranting a fair bit by that point, so I hope I haven't upset anyone. It may also be that I'm fanboying over the new Life is Strange game a little, and that may have clouded my point in a sea of gushing. Super sorry ;-;
Even simple, yet fundamental, things like animations and facial expressions are carefully created. And before people shrug this off - in A N… moreew Frontier Clementine doesn't even visibly cry, despite her voice actress putting on a crying voice. No tears on an animated character during a death scene. Meanwhile, Chloe visibly cries - both her voice actor and her character model - in an emotionally charged scene.
If I can be so inclined to be that guy-- while Telltale has tended to drop the ball when it comes to characters crying (at least in the sense of not being bothered to add tears), and while they don't exactly have the best character animation in general... I still think Telltale's facial expressions are something they have done consistently well. Dare I say that Telltale's facial animations are some of the most lively and distinct I've seen, short of mocapped stuff. While there was an improvement over the original LiS, the facial an… [view original content]
I mean, I understand why they do it, but I'm not sure I'm fully on board with it. It might get the job done, but you can't help but wonder if there's was a cleaner alternative. Like, imagine instead of using a flyswatter to kill a fly, you just pick up a chair and start swinging it around the room. Maybe it'll get the job done and kill the little bastard... but there was probably a more precise method of solving that problem, you know what I mean?
Ikr? How could people post on the internet about a video game. That's some next level fucked up shit.
It's almost as if posting random comments on an internet forum, that nobody is forced to read, doesn't psychically harm anybody or anything. It's almost as if it is the safest way to express your negative opinion that isn't disturbing the common public or cause any kind of vandalism such as riots or protest.
But who would have thought! We must put a stop to this outrageous forum! Too many lives are at stake!
And yes, there are people who will claim they don't believe in any future improvement, yet are still here and still complain.
For wh… moreat it's worth, these were the kinds of folks I had in mind with my original post. Although I'll admit that I sorta lumped everyone else into that category as well.
I'm... not exactly the best at articulating how I feel about things. But I wasn't deliberately out to try to generalize everyone. More attempting to question the rationale of some of the people here, and how they go about trying to solve the perceived problems with Telltale.
I'll just go on record here-- I'm all for criticism. Constructive or harsh. I mean hell, even I've said some relatively unkind stuff about Telltale in the past, even after I became a mod. But with that being said, I'm not always in agreement with how some people here go about voicing their complaints/criticism. There's people that are quite reasonable and civil about … [view original content]
I mean, I understand why they do it, but I'm not sure I'm fully on board with it. It might get the job done, but you can't help but wonder i… moref there's was a cleaner alternative. Like, imagine instead of using a flyswatter to kill a fly, you just pick up a chair and start swinging it around the room. Maybe it'll get the job done and kill the little bastard... but there was probably a more precise method of solving that problem, you know what I mean?
Ikr? How could people post on the internet about a video game. That's some next level fucked up shit.
It's almost as if posting random comments on an internet forum, that nobody is forced to read, doesn't psychically harm anybody or anything. It's almost as if it is the safest way to express your negative opinion that isn't disturbing the common public or cause any kind of vandalism such as riots or protest.
But who would have thought! We must put a stop to this outrageous forum! Too many lives are at stake!
I cannot express how much that train scene pissed me off. After going back and forth for 30 minutes trying to unhitch the back car, I was forced for Lee to move the train only for him to go "Oh, something must be stopping us from moving." I almost called it quits for that days playing.
I think episode 3 in Season 1 could have been trimmed down significantly
PREACH IT! Some of those hubs lasted for way too damn long with lame ass puzzles.
Comments
Who hurt you?
You gotta include the multiple factors here:
Last time I checked, "Batman: The Enemy Within" and "Minecraft: Story Mode: Season Two" are the second installments of their series, as "Before The Storm" is to the Life Is Strange series.
Guardians is an unequal comparison, though, yeah.
I kind of see what you're saying, Hiro—but the point of juxtaposing the sales and the all-time peak of all these games is to demonstrate that the demand for the current game of one company is higher than the demand for the current games of another.
Comparing the premiere of "Before The Storm" to the premiere of "The Walking Dead: Season Two" addresses a different situation entirely. And, don't get me wrong, this second situation is just as valuable to examine. It answers the question: how do the first episode of Telltale's The Walking Dead and Life Is Strange's second installments fare when put side by side? But the answer to this question speaks about the customer response to these particular series and their developing companies at a particular point in time; and not of the current state of their developing companies, which is where this thread is getting at.
What is a sequel: stupid peeps that start here should have wasted their money.
Telltale still didn't do that. I do like TEW tho since it felt somewhat like a sequel.
You don't get his point. Minecraft S2 and Batman The Enemy Within aren't direct sequels. The only thing comparable is The Walking Dead S2, which is a direct sequel.
What's a good example of sequels? The Desmond saga of Assassin's Creed.
Telltale sucks at sequels, they should just stop. Lol
So are you saying that Batman is not a quality product?
I'm going to be honest with you here, both Batman: The Enemy Within and MCSM S2 both feel like sequels, the only difference is that they deal with new threats within their plot.
What?
I don't understand, in what vein is TWD:S2 a sequel to the first season that MC:S2 and TEW aren't? The fact that a sequel "sucks" doesn't mean it can be automatically disregarded as a continuation of the original game. They take place in the same universe - follow on from the same stories, characters and events. They are sequels.
As far as most people on this forum are concerned, quality's been dead since 2014
But everyone here has a severe case of the sunken cost fallacy, so they have decided on the rather unorthodox move known as 'riding the nosediving plane straight into the ground, complaining about the fact that the plane is going down instead of just getting off the plane'
Did you even play the games yet? They don't follow on the same story or cast.
MCSM S2 started an entirely new story with no continutation or even references whatsoever. The season 2 title is misleading.
Batman referenced a few things here and there, but did not directly continue with any existing characters other than John, Batman, Lucius, Gordon and Regina. There was still story potential with existing characters from season 1, but Telltale decided they wanted to attract newcomers, and continued and referenced to the absolute minimum. (Whether Alfred has an eyepatch and whether you owed John a favor). They didn't even take account to our choices in season 1 such as whether we burned the tickets or not.
Batman is very subjective. But how does Minecraft ever feel like a sequel?
Uhh, not really? It had a good amount of Season 1 references in passing, and even more direct references in Episode 202.
Multiple references to the previous game, multiple characters from the previous game, including characters from the DLC, being either mentioned or outright appearing, the fact that the main villain of S2 is only interested in Jesse due to the achievements he accomplished in S1, outright improvements on previous gameplay mechanics etc. MCSM S2 has felt like a continuation through and through.
As much as I love Kate, I don't think she's important enough for the story to have a game of her own. Before The Storm seems to be telling the story behind the Tornado, Spirits and potetially Max's power. Kate was the one that triggered Max into trying to find Rachel Amber, to help/avenge her, but she never knew anything. She never knew of the Dark Room, of Max's powers, of the Tornado, anything really. What story could Kate tell? Specially when two waaaay more important characters (Chloe and Rachel) have tons of misteries and stories to tell?
NICE RACHEL WE'RE HAVING
I think Life is Strange series also has advantage in terms of production value. They use motion capture and stuff like that rather liberally.
Telltale Games stuff like Batman doesn't look bad, but you can tell Life is Strange's motion captured scenes are miles ahead in terms of animation.
Way Bruce Wayne moves is kind of stiff, not to mention the other characters.
My only nitpick (and it's not just you, it is a lot of people in this forum) is the adamant idea that 2 hour episodes are a solution.
Now, let me say this first. I would like an episode to be 2 hours. I enjoy spending more time in the world of the characters and settings. If I had to choose between 2 hours of high quality and one hour of high quality, I would pick 2 hours without hesitation.
With that being said, I disagree with TTG having ANY target goal for their episodes. They are making (or supposed to be making, depending on your view of TTG) story driven game. The narrative determines the length. If an episode's story and pace only allows for 1.5 hours, then let it be. If 3 hours is needed to cover that episode's story, then let it be 3. I've said it before, I'd be fine if TTG broke the standard of 5 episodes per season (only 3 games have broken that trend). Let the story dictate the number of episodes and the length of each. Let the quality determine the quantity. I was actually a bit critical of TTG for staying to an 90 minute mark during season 2. Episodes 2 and 3 could have used more time along with an extra 6th episode to balance out the flow. I think episode 3 in Season 1 could have been trimmed down significantly.
Like I said, I'm not coming at you specifically. It's just a small (and I emphasize again, it is a small) nitpick I have when I see people mentioning episode lengths and the phrase "2 hours". Other than that, I agree with all your other points with no questions.
No, you're right. I don't care that much for the length of the episodes. As long as the episode fulfilled what it needed to fulfill and it was an enjoyable experience I'm fine with it.
I just added that mark of having at least one 2 hour episode because a lot of people have been requesting that recently. And I'm okay with it.
But Telltale shouldn't fill their episodes with fluff or rush certain episodes if they don't need to.
I'm totally with you on this. And if I wasn't, no offence taken. I respect your opinion either way.
PREACH IT! Some of those hubs lasted for way too damn long with lame ass puzzles.
Telltale has progressively cut gameplay features such as hubs from their games, with some episodes of ANF having literally no free walks. With each game, they seem to become closer and closer to become a literal compilation of cutscenes where you get this minimal input through dialogue choices which don't really affect the overall scene. This combined with the choice handling still being... not great (further removing motivation to play these "games" rather than just watch them) and their skill at writing stories having gone so down the trash bin you can literally find erotica online more engaging and depthful than their latest TWD entry, "A New Frontier", and I wish I was exaggerating (further making their already unnecessary to play yourself games, skippable) has obviously turned most people away from these "games".
LiS, on the other hand, seems to be expanding even more on the hub part. Whilst telltale has become 90% cutscene and 10% hubs and in some cases, 0% hubs, LiS seems to do the exact opposite: 90% hubs, 10% cutscenes. This combined with many side quests and optional conversations and actions (such as putting money in your mom's purse), side quests and conversations which are not at all distracting from your main objective, make such an engaging and immersive experience that it truly amazed me. Also, things such as the diary, the text messages, the hubs filled with pictures to look at, text to read and graffiti to find, make this game fill that much bigger in terms of content, not to mentionit adds great depth into the setting, protagonist mind state, personality and perspective to all those things, including other characters.
And I'm literally only half way through "Awake".
Whether or not you like the themes or plot of LiS, its formula is obviously engaging way more people than the Telltale formula has been able to. The fact that Telltale's highest selling game, The Walking Dead Season 1, is closer to LiS's formula than all the others which strayed away from such formula and therefore sold less, not even half than what TWDS1 did, further proves that the LiS formula works way better.
Please Telltale, take some lessons from the competition, for they are clearly doing something right.
Most people who nowadays criticize Telltale but stick around are people who've been sticking with the company for some years now. That obviously creates attachment. If immediately getting detached from something you once liked (hell, loved) and have been following for years now were as easy as clicking a button or "getting off a plane" most of us would've already done it. Thing is, attachment doesn't work like that.
Not to mention that criticizing something is often the means to get it to improve.
But by all means, go ahead, and keep painting us as irrational assholes.
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You don't get attached to video game characters? Or characters in any story, not necessarily just video games.
Yes, I am attached to characters I've followed for years, in books, shows, films, and video games. I don't see how that makes me a 14 yo Tumblr user? I'm pretty sure it's a pretty common phenomenon for people to have an emotional reaction to fiction, hell, I think it's actually the whole point???
If you could explain your thesis, I'm more than welcome to listen.
Also, keep in mind that 80% of old known users aren't here anymore.
Have you seen the past 3 Telltale games? They've improved since ANF. They've got hubs. BIG hubs. They've got great choices. Dialogue has improved significantly, where the options change based on previous events or even now change how other characters may think of you.
Yes, LIS has a lot more and their episodes are much bigger than what Telltale offers right now, but that's mainly because they probably have a bigger budget and that they use a different engine. Telltale still tries to keep that Point-and-Click feel of games, while giving them an engaging story... while Square/Dontnod/whomever is behind the wheel is mainly trying to make story-based games of their own.
Alright, I'll admit that I was being presumptuous about people finding it easy to walk away from things. It's never the same for everyone. For better or worse, I've personally learned to bail on things that obviously aren't going in a direction I like anymore. I've had to do that to multiple different things; games, shows, people... many of which I was actively involved in for years. Things I most certainly cared about. So I guess maybe I'm the troubled war vet that's all used to it or something, I dunno.
Either way, I still firmly believe that there's a point where if something just doesn't seem to be improving, no matter what you try to say or do, there comes a point where you're no longer obligated to stick by it, regardless of how long you've stuck by it in the past. Which goes to the plane analogy I was using... if a plane is going down, and it doesn't seem like anyone or anything is able to divert its course, there's a point where you're no longer expected to stay on it... where getting yourself a parachute and jumping out becomes the more lucrative-- or to be brutally blunt, sensible-- option.
Walking away can be difficult, true... but it's not impossible, either. And quite frankly, there's times where attachments simply aren't healthy, or end up turning into something that is no longer healthy. Where the longer you stay with it... the higher the chance that when you inevitably have to give it up, it'll be all the harder to accept. And from the way I'm looking at it, that's the direction this all seems to be heading. Whether or not it's at that point yet, I guess it's up for debate. But given the current state of affairs? I'm not too positive about there being a happy ending at the end of all of this, should people decide to see it all the way through.
If you don't mind me getting a bit grim-- there's going to be a point in your life where you will have to give up something you care about... or where something you care about will end up leaving your life for good. You might not have an opportunity to prevent that from happening, but you do have an opportunity to lessen that blow by accepting the direction things are heading in, and making peace with that reality.
And let me reiterate that I'm not saying to completely drop and bury everything entirely. I'm trying to say stop putting further investment and stake into it. Hold on to all the good moments, all the things worth remembering, but don't let the things that came after continue to drag you down with them.
No one needs to walk away for good, either. Sometimes giving something no attention sends a stronger message than acknowledging the faults upfront. You can construe any type of publicity as good publicity... but if you're not being given anything to work with, you have nothing to make publicity out of. In the grand scheme of things, you're basically made irrelevant, and you're forced to make changes in order to make a name for yourself again. And you know what? Maybe that's exactly what Telltale needs. Not a constant stream of public critique and acknowledgment... just the good old fashioned cold shoulder. Maybe the problem you all have has an alternative solution that is as equally effective.
Or maybe I'm just looking at this whole situation in a completely different perspective than you guys are. I have a tendency to be a lateral thinker sometimes.
"Deck Nine" is making LiS:BTS. : p
Hubs are an essential part of Point and Click. Telltale hubs are specifically just pointing and clicking. Telltale dropped the "Games" part from their name, deliberately. Telltale chose, deliberately, to make their games more cutscene based and to neglect the hub department, the actual, Point and Click. It all got gradually more cutscene based from game to game until we got to ANF where we had two whole episodes without hubs. This was deliberate. Not a budget or engine restriction.
I've watched both Batman and Minecraft (only the premiere) and they are clearly trying, hopefully, due to the ANF backlash (because the whole point of the backlash and the hate and the criticism was actually to have them improve, believe it or not).
I still didn't find them as engaging as BTS hubs. I'm too tired today to figure out why, so I may update this in the future if you're interested, but the content of the hubs in LiS just feels more... interesting and focused? Like the narrative actually, drives you through the hub. I find that to be less in Telltale Games. As a completionist, I mostly end up forcing myself to click everything in Telltale hubs, in LiS I was so immersed it seemed to... flow? I guess it has to do how they tie narrative and hub/current objective and hub.
There are also the side quests. Lots of them, which will most likely end up mattering just like in the first game. I'm not sure I can say the same for the Minecraft side quests, and well, Batman had none if I remember correctly. Hopefully in the future.
Side characters as well. Those are pretty much non-existent in Telltale Games (I can only really recall Frank in Batman, and his screen time and dialogue were pretty short). The point of side characters, characters who are not directly involved in the main plot and are usually seen and delved upon in hubs, is to give more life and depth to the setting, which is a damn important thing, yet Telltale has hardly done them, whilst LiS has, like, a shit ton. A shame. Again, hopefully in the future.
You see, the path to improving these hubs, in my honest opinion, is to make them more similar to LiS. I firmly believe that it's a way more engaging formula, and the overall public seems to think so too. So I still hope Telltale looks at BTS, and takes some notes. Some people don't enjoy the teenage drama/cringe from LiS, and that's fine, so if Telltale took some of the aspects wich make LiS hubs so great and added them to their games with their own themes and IP's, everyone would honestly end up winning.
I believe you're talking about the character panels by the end of "The Enigma"? I find it wiser to see if they actually pay off in future episodes before starting already praising them. I totally hope they succeed at making those little choices matter though.
Disclaimer thing:
Spoilers for A New Frontier and Before the Storm are in this post. You've been warned!
Also, all of this is my opinion. I apologise if you disagree with how I word things, or my opinions, but an opinion isn't right or wrong. I respect each and every idea being laid out here, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, and I simply just wanted to add mine to the pile.
Okay? Okay. Awesome!
I completely and totally agree with the OP. If you keep releasing lower quality products, word will get around and people will stop buying from you.
I think there's a reason the new Life is Strange game is selling pretty well. Before the Storm, to me, feels like a labor of love and the result of people sitting down and saying "You'll never guess what story we want to tell you!". My first playthrough of Awake took me nearly FOUR hours. For one episode. Admittedly, I was so amazed by the idea of a new choice-based game having hubs that I spent a good while just walking around looking at stuff. There's an entirely optional dungeons and dragons esque sequence, which can take up to half an hour. And that's OPTIONAL, I have to emphasise. Most Telltale episodes, nowadays, are about an hour twenty - at least, that's the time I got on my playthrough of A New Frontier, per episode, roughly speaking. A New Frontier, to me, comes across as less 'look what we made and come play it we put lots of effort in and we just want you to love us!', instead coming across as "people like The Walking Dead so let's pump out another one". It's a product, more than an idea.
I know some people would leap up to shriek "quality over quantity, BHBrowne!" However, I'm inclined to argue that Telltale has had neither, as of late. Further, Telltale even went on record in an AMA and said they'd prefer shorter episodes of quality - I believe their exact wording was they'd prefer "better minutes". I don't want to speak for anyone but myself, here, but A New Frontier - and likely many other Telltale games of late, I haven't indulged them since my purchase of A New Frontier - simply haven't been similar to works like The Walking Dead: Season One, The Wolf Among Us and Tales From The Borderlands.
I don't go into games wanting to hate them, though I can see how someone may get this impression from how negative I seem in most my posts on this forum. I go into games with as open a mind as possible, and - on rare occasions, such as Before the Storm - I can be genuinely excited for them. That being said, just because I'm complacent when I first start a game, I'm still going to say 'this is shit' if I think it's shit. Telltale, in my honest opinion, don't seem to realise what about their games people liked. The argument they had to make episodes shorter because people needed to go to the toilet or get something to eat is, in my opinion, absurd. I don't play lengthy games like Life is Strange and The Last of Us and complain that I need to rest my eyes, soon. The line of thinking that every gamer has short attention spans, and so Telltale should make their games shorter, is so dumbfounding it boggles my mind. There's no such thing as 'too long', in my mind. That being said, four hours of dross is going to be, well, dross.
Thankfully, however, Before the Storm is anything but dross. It's emotional, it's interesting, it's light hearted and it's soul crushing all at the same time. And that's the first episode. The premiere.
Take this scene, for example:
I'm not saying that this needs to be in every single game, or the game is awful by default, but stuff like this isn't to be sniffed at. It puts a slight spin on game mechanics - forcing the player to select 'SMASH', no matter what button press - it delves into Chloe's mindset about her dad dying when she sees the destroyed car, we have a heartfelt moment between two awkward and uncertain people and, as a cherry on top, the music sets the perfect atmosphere - speaking of, Before the Storm got a brand new soundtrack (which I'm listening to right now, as I write this!). No reused music, it's all made for this game. Mostly just a thing that I appreciate, but you know. Chloe's voice acting is spot on here, in my opinion. It all comes across as genuine, and there's a clear passion being sunken into every little detail.
Nothing really comes close to this scene during Ties That Bind: Part One, which was - as you all likely know - the premier episode of A New Frontier. Short of Mariana dying, and she had no development so I don't really care that much, nothing was especially emotional. And there definitely wasn't, in my opinion, a scene as well done as this in the entirety of A New Frontier. Which is quite telling, to be blunt, that the first episode of a prequel 'spin-off' season can evoke more emotion in ten minutes than A New Frontier can in several hours.
On that subject, I'm also inclined to point out that I felt more in the first episode of Before the Storm than I felt in the entirety of A New Frontier. That's not to mention I could probably make it pretty far through the first three episodes of A New Frontier in the time it takes me to play through one episode of Before the Storm. A story, at its core, needs to make its audience feel. To make us think, and ask questions, and immerse us. A New Frontier fumbled the ball in these regards. Before the Storm made me grin the biggest grin when I sat back and thought about it, after my first playthrough. Because it proved, to me, that choice-based games aren't the problem.
Telltale is.
The difference between Before the Storm and most recent Telltale games, in my opinion, is - and this is going to probably sound kind of nasty - there's, at a fundamental level, more effort put into Before the Storm. Even simple, yet fundamental, things like animations and facial expressions are carefully created. And before people shrug this off - in A New Frontier Clementine doesn't even visibly cry, despite her voice actress putting on a crying voice. No tears on an animated character during a death scene. Meanwhile, Chloe visibly cries - both her voice actor and her character model - in an emotionally charged scene.
The difference in effort between Telltale and Deck Nine, in these recent endeavors, is really apparent to me. I get that game making isn't easy, but it does have to be called into question - in my opinion - why Telltale seems to think that less quality is worth more? Art is incredibly subjective, but effort isn't. I can tell the difference between, for example, a carefully constructed five thousand word essay and a hastily shambled together one hundred word thing done the night before I needed it done. That's sort of what these two games feel like! Before the Storm is the carefully and lovingly written thesis, with quotes and diagrams and love and dedication put into it, with a couple of errors that can be rectified or looked over. Meanwhile, A New Frontier is the scrunched up piece of paper that looks like it's been in a puddle, covered in crossing outs, scribbles and what looks like a crude drawing of a penis in the top right corner. It all reeks of 'last minute', of 'I wonder how little I can get away with' and 'that will do'.
I think, to bring this back on topic, that I completely agree with you. People definitely aren't fatigued by Telltale-esque games, as much as they're fatigued by lower-effort Telltale-esque games. I don't like to be bashing of any particular topic, so this probably makes me look like a hypocrite, but I also feel that criticism is what paves the way for improvement. Change never came about from complacency - it came about from experimenting, asking questions, and pushing for a better tomorrow.
Thanks for reading my ramble/rant thing, just really needed to get it off my chest. I firmly agree with the point you've made, and reading through this thread has been super interesting!
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Sorry for being so general about things but it's a bit hard to address and reply to a post this big.
I'm... not sure about that. We've hated, and hated, and hated, and hated on ANF. We've complained for months, and keep doing it. But in all honesty, I believe it bore fruit. I believe the reason Telltale staff has been coming to the forums for feedback is because we made our voices heard. The reason they seem to be focusing more on hubs again is because we made our voices heard. I believe the reason Clem is back to being the protagonist and PC on the fourth Season is because we made our voices heard. I'm sure that TWAU S2 is happening because others made their voices heard.
Silence would've gotten us nowhere. If we just kept shut, if we didn't complain, hate, criticised, etc. then nothing would've changed. And I'm sorry if that was annoying for you people that (somehow) were able to enjoy ANF, but we had to complain, and complain loud, so that they would hear us.
Voicing criticism is done so that something improves, or at least to leave an example for other people of what to do and not do. And yes, there are people who will claim they don't believe in any future improvement, yet are still here and still complain. Don't ask me to make sense of it. I'm not one of them. Most of "us" aren't. At least from what I've seen. Maybe those people just secretly believe in improvement, yet just try to show they feel otherwise. Maybe they are just angry. I don't know. I know that I've been carefully and thoroughly explaining my criticism since day one, so it hopefully improves. I know that I've participated in Alyssa threads, and will keep on doing so, so it hopefully improves. So I didn't feel it made us justice to simply paint us as irrational assholes.
If I can be so inclined to be that guy-- while Telltale has tended to drop the ball when it comes to characters crying (at least in the sense of not being bothered to add tears), and while they don't exactly have the best character animation in general... I still think Telltale's facial expressions are something they have done consistently well. Dare I say that Telltale's facial animations are some of the most lively and distinct I've seen, short of mocapped stuff. While there was an improvement over the original LiS, the facial animations in BtS still feel a bit stilted and stiff... not always getting the emotion all the way across. They just don't feel lively enough to me. I mean, there's points where they actually do a great job at properly conveying the emotion (like the aforementioned Chloe scene), but I still think it's relative hit and miss for most parts. I suppose uncanny valley is the best way that I can think of to describe it-- it's almost there, but something's just not quite right.
Telltale might be very stubborn about sticking to their hand-animated ways (for better or worse), but facial expressions are one thing they have consistently done pretty damn well, all things considered (...well, except for a few characters in ANF, like that frickin' fanny pack guy)
For what it's worth, these were the kinds of folks I had in mind with my original post. Although I'll admit that I sorta lumped everyone else into that category as well.
I'm... not exactly the best at articulating how I feel about things. But I wasn't deliberately out to try to generalize everyone. More attempting to question the rationale of some of the people here, and how they go about trying to solve the perceived problems with Telltale.
I'll just go on record here-- I'm all for criticism. Constructive or harsh. I mean hell, even I've said some relatively unkind stuff about Telltale in the past, even after I became a mod. But with that being said, I'm not always in agreement with how some people here go about voicing their complaints/criticism. There's people that are quite reasonable and civil about it (and well-earned kudos to those guys, you probably know who you are), but there's this other portion of people that I can't help but feel like they're not going about it in the best way possible. I mean, I understand why they do it, but I'm not sure I'm fully on board with it. It might get the job done, but you can't help but wonder if there's was a cleaner alternative. Like, imagine instead of using a flyswatter to kill a fly, you just pick up a chair and start swinging it around the room. Maybe it'll get the job done and kill the little bastard... but there was probably a more precise method of solving that problem, you know what I mean?
Yeah, like using a machine gun or an uzi instead of a chair!
Yea, I'll go ahead and admit that was mostly me making a straw-man fallacy, looking back on it, and that on the whole Telltale have been pretty awesome at animations and stuff. Emphasis on 'on the whole'. Especially considering they've hand animated versus using motion capture and stuff.
I think what I'm mostly peeved about is that, back during the release of Thicker Than Blood and From the Gallows, there were a fair couple of people whose faces weren't quite 'right'. A couple that spring to mind are fanny-pack dude (as you mentioned), Clint if you accept the deal - AFAIK his face has been fixed, as of recently, but on launch he just sort of seemed to vapidly stare off into the distance as he was held hostage - and then there's the lady in From the Gallows, the one who lost her husband and kid. Fern, I think? Don't get me wrong, Life is Strange definitely ... has some interesting faces, especially in the first season, but on the other hand I can't really say that they've detracted that much from a scene, unlike certain moments that I - admittedly - cherry picked from A New Frontier, where I'll confess to having a good couple of giggles over fanny-pack mcgee being like an unfeeling Terminator, even as Javier was getting stabbed. Different strokes for different folks, though, so I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other.
Actually, I guess I am saying one thing is better than the other. Well, shit.
While I'm not saying that the game is completely broken and unplayable, I can't help but wonder how stuff like this slips through the cracks, if that makes sense? In conversation, you can tell almost as much about a person by what their face is doing, as opposed to just the words being said. In previous stuff of Telltale's, their face animations and stuff have really consistent and well done, so to see it go from not having any major complaints about it to seeing people staring at Javier blankly as they go about their business is more jarring than the more 'consistent' hit-and-miss of other games. For example, while I don't especially like watching a woman get stabbed, I really think that the scene where Kenny can stab Jane in No Going Back is a really haunting, yet fantastically put together, animation. You have Jane clawing at Kenny's face and her fear crossing all over her face, her movements getting slower as the knife goes deeper, and you have Kenny lurch off of her and put his head in his hands. Not all of their animation and stuff is bad, in fact I tend to think it's pretty good, but I do think the characters which didn't have working facial animations, on launch, do need to be criticised. Kinda. Even though, again, I don't like watching a teenager die in A New Frontier, I was kind of surprised Clementine's face didn't have anything like tears, despite the fact that in both previous seasons they had no difficulty making Clementine - and, by proxy, me - cry. That being said, maybe I'm nitpicking. Probably nitpicking.
Looking back, my point definitely came out sideways. My bad! I completely agree with your point though. On the whole, Telltale have had pretty great animations in the past and, even in the present we're still seeing some nice stuff. It was mostly me ranting a fair bit by that point, so I hope I haven't upset anyone. It may also be that I'm fanboying over the new Life is Strange game a little, and that may have clouded my point in a sea of gushing. Super sorry ;-;
Ikr? How could people post on the internet about a video game. That's some next level fucked up shit.
It's almost as if posting random comments on an internet forum, that nobody is forced to read, doesn't psychically harm anybody or anything. It's almost as if it is the safest way to express your negative opinion that isn't disturbing the common public or cause any kind of vandalism such as riots or protest.
But who would have thought! We must put a stop to this outrageous forum! Too many lives are at stake!
I think I have been successfully outsassed
I don't think I can beat this one guys
AND THE CRINGE EDGYNESS. Bad writing, such cliches man.
It's pretty, I'll give you that. Nice palettes, likeable designs.
But Good? hhhgn
Wolf Amons Us 2 will hopefully blow up the charts. Team Bigbeeehhh.
I actually wouldn't have known what OC was talking about without those big circley numbers, aiight you eyecist?
I cannot express how much that train scene pissed me off. After going back and forth for 30 minutes trying to unhitch the back car, I was forced for Lee to move the train only for him to go "Oh, something must be stopping us from moving." I almost called it quits for that days playing.