he gives you a ride to Macon (because he needs someone who can bust a few heads)
And what's wrong with deciding that you need extra help in order to up your chances of survival? Having a few healthy adults around is only going to benefit Lee as well (as Lee is still injured, and without ANY possessions that might help him to do anything except for out-stay his welcome on Herschel's Farm)
delegates jobs in the store (Doug, you just keep doin what you are already doin...Carley, I need you ready to save my fam again, Me and Kat are just going to sit here a do absolutly nothing...thanks)
You can also easily say that he knew that the group was already doing what needed to be done, but he takes initiative in refocusing the group after the "group leader" becomes engrossed in her Dad's health. Seemed pretty effective to calm frazzled nerves and give everyone a purpose, if you ask me.
comes back for Lee (wow, only one zombie and he is facing away from me, axe...come on Lee, I just rescued you so you gotta be my toady now)
Wow. Your hindsight has is a perfect 20/20.:rolleyes: Kenny doesn't know what he is going to be up against, and he comes back to save your life regardless of your previous loyalty. If you honestly think this is a selfish act, then you probably have a relationship detachment disorder.
comes running when the teacher screams thinking it mite be Lee (wheres the proof he thought that, he very well could of been hiding and watching untill he saw Lee show up)
Again, you're making up a motive based on the kind of person you want Kenny to be, not on who he is. Both he and you/Mark come running thinking that the other is in trouble - Lee is the only person who can even say that he doesn't want to help the group free their member. Everyone else pushes him to help, and Kenny stands ground to give you time to do what needs to be done.
Now bad points for Kenny:
doesn't help shawn with fence (no need for me to repay you for allowing me and my family a place to stay)
Oh yes, Kenny doesn't help Shawn because of ungratefulness. Not because his son was just rescued from danger and in the heat of the moment, he panicked. Seriously, not every thing he does has malicious intent behind it, and pretending it does MAKES YOU WRONG.
doesnt help shawn (even stares a few seconds before he runs off)
Repeating yourself over blind rage, or trying to pad this section to make it look larger than it is?
gets zombies after everyone (hey guys, you freindly)
Lee does this as well in Clementines yard. Apart from just wandering around aimlessly, what else are they supposed to do? It was probably this call that also got them noticed by the group in the Drug store, so it wasn't completely detrimental, even if it was the fool-hardy thing to do.
doesn't help carley and lee fight off thos zombies (Im just to scared)
You mean the one that went after Clementine in the drug store? Right after his kid just got threatened by the guy who is still standing in front of him? If we are going to fault Kenny for this, then we must also fault Lilly, Larry, Glenn, Doug, and Katjaa for not doing anything, either. You're not running around calling THEM bad people, are you?
is confrontational with Lilly and Lary in drugstore even before Larry noticed duck (How dare you say that your group shouldnt risk itself for my benifit)
He is only returning hostilities - Larry and Lilly are making it quite clear that they didn't want to help you out, and even then, he is happy to stay silent and let Glenn and Carly defend their actions. I believe the first thing that he says is "Lee, can you believe this Lady?". That might be confrontational, but it certaintly isn't aggressive, and frankly, for how many of you think that Larry's life is sacred, IT IS A SENTIMENT WITH WHICH YOU SHOULD ALL AGREE, because Lilly wasn't willing to risk her life to help out a group with two young children.
...now I could list many more bad points but as the bad is already winning I will stop there...if I missed any good ones just let me know
also, whether you say cowardly and stupid or panicky and brash doesnt matter...you dont need a leader (or member) with those charectoristics
So by this thinking, you should have thrown Duck out to the walkers. It doesn't matter if he was actually bitten or not, you don't need a stupid member and you should take the opportunity to get rid of him now. Also, you should choose Doug over Carly, because THAT lady can't even check to see if a radio has batteries, and even when you HAND HER THE BATTERIES, she puts them in incorrectly. Also, why bother saving Larry in the meat locker? He hampers the group, he should go, whether he could have been saved or not (about the only thing he is good for is Lilly's loyalty).
too much to quote but...nothing wrong with needing extra help...that was my point, he drove past ppl who needed help and then asked others for it instead
so everyone needed something to do to "calm thier frazzled nerves" but him and kat
and if he didnt know what he was comming back for then it wasnt a lee rescue mission, just an oppurtunity to say, now you owe me Lee
and you are makeing kenny what you want by saying he came running incase Lee was in danger...(I might would believe that if his charector traits didnt leave me to feel otherwise)
the part about me padding was NOT repeating myself in a "blind rage"...before the zombie ate shawn, Lee cut wood...where was Kenny??? NOT HELPING. Then AFTER the zombie attack guess what...he DOESNT help again.
Lee did before he new anything...when Kenny does it they should know better
I dont mean the one that came after clem...I mean before they even got in, outside when Duck was attacked Carley saved Duck...what does Kenny do? (Guess the word NOTHI_G)
did Lilly advocate throwing Duck out...hmmm
no one said Larry's life is sacred...I have said many times that Larry is a dick...I am saying that KENNY is a peice of cowardly shit who betrayed me. (hence why I started a F*** Kenny" thread instead of a "Did Larry disearve to die?" thread.
and yes...I would get rid of duck in a heart beat...Your Lee can go off with Kenny in fam (that makes 3 adults and 1 child) and my Lee can go off with Lilly, Carly, and Clem (3 adults and 1 child) and the rest of the world can take bets on which Lee becomes a walker first, what do ya think?
By the way...check several threads as well as this one...you Kenny supporters are losing
By the way...check several threads as well as this one...you Kenny supporters are losing
Oh no! People aren't siding with a virtual character I did, and are instead jumping on the "Larry is an angel" bandwagon. What ever am I to do? I enjoy how you seem to think supporting Kenny is like some form of disease. :rolleyes:
I'd take Kenny any day of the week over Lilly. He's a good man that acts on impulse and can be emotional. At least he isn't afraid to start things to get stuff done and isn't afraid to take risks- unlike that hypocritical, whiny, no good witch of a woman. Larry was just as bad, but at least he didn't complain about how it was "so hawwwrd" being leader.
Oh no! People aren't siding with a virtual character I did, and are instead jumping on the "Larry is an angel" bandwagon. What ever am I to do? I enjoy how you seem to think supporting Kenny is like some form of disease. :rolleyes:
I'd take Kenny any day of the week over Lilly. He's a good man that acts on impulse and can be emotional. At least he isn't afraid to start things to get stuff done and isn't afraid to take risks- unlike that hypocritical, whiny, no good witch of a woman. Larry was just as bad, but at least he didn't complain about how it was "so hawwwrd" being leader.
Until Lilly leaves soon and you leave everything to the group to either yourself or Kenny.
@deadk1ng
Not being in the Popular camp does not equate to being wrong (just sayin'). I think that is what TTG is aspiring to show in this game - that there are no wrong choices, there are only choices that you are willing to live with over others. It's going to be different for different people.
As for driving past other people, and then asking Lee for help, we don't really know the specifics of those cases. Would helping them have put Kenny and his family in danger? We just don't know. One thing we know for sure is that (short of risking your life), banding together for protection and safety does not make people selfish or stupid (which is the spin you are clearly trying to put on it, despite calling it a "good" part of Kenny's character).
Like I said, he just puts the group back into focus - it's not like he was intending to make everyone do "work" but himself. He pretty much just tells people to go about what they were doing. He then goes back to check on his kid and calm down his wife (who is sounding pretty nervous if you listen to ambient dialogue), all of whom just went through the harrowing experience of not only having a family member be jumped by a walker, but then had said family member be threatened to be killed. I don't blame them for not pitching in for awhile, just as Lilly doesn't pitch in to look after her Dad (despite claiming that she is really helpless to do anything for him), nor when Lee takes time to take care of/ check on Clementine.
And I didn't say that he didn't know what he was going back for - he was clearly going back to save Lee. Why else would he have returned? His family is secure in his truck, and there is nothing of value that he would need to risk his life for to come back to the drug store, other than Lee's life. He just didn't know what the situation was like back in the drug store - thus saying that he didn't really risk his life to save Lee is false.
And I seem to have misread your post above(and you misread one of mine, so let's call it even!), but just because he doesn't immediately return the favor for being allowed to rest in the barn doesn't mean that he wasn't EVER going to return the favor. Prescribing false motives does not make you any more right than anyone else here.
And how exactly was Lee doing anything in the situation with the Walker on top of Doug? The only people who get any bravery credits in THAT situation was Glenn and Carly, so my original point still stands. I don't irrationally hate Lilly for leaving me and Clem out to die in front of the drug store. Why do we need to hate Kenny for not playing the hero in every second of every day? Especially in situations where he may not have the given time to react (such as the ones that you and I both pointed out).
Lilly didn't have to "advocate" anything. If she felt differently than her father, but neglected to say anything just because it was her father, that makes her more cowardly than anyone else in that room. She doesn't even apologize for her father's behavior at any point - she just focuses on his heart condition and shifts the blame on your "violence", even AFTER Kenny promises that we will find her the keys to the pharmacy to save the life of the man who threatened his kid. Who's ungrateful, now?
The rest of your post proves to me EXACTLY how hypocritical you are being in your irrational Kenny hate-fest. You want to get rid of anyone who doesn't "mesh" with your survival (going so far as to say that you would get rid of a little kid!), and only hate on Kenny when he doesn't fall in line with YOUR bidding (which is the exact thing you claim to hate HIM for!). Yup, I really WOULD like to see who survives longer in the apocalypse...
point 1 I disagreed with Lilly lots of times yet she never left me to die
point 2 I disagreed with Kenny ONCE and he left me to die
at no time was I hypocritical, Duck, Kenny, and Kat are a packaged deal and that is a package I don't wanna carry. I can't even trust that there is anything worthwhile in that package, only extra weight. You are literally nuts if you think a Team of Lee, Clem, Kenny, Kat, and Duck are superior to a team of Lee, Clem, Lilly, and Carly. Team Kenny is panicy (cowardly), brash (stupid). The only thing going for that team is Lee and Clem (yes Clem gets attacked a lot but she also pulls her own weight).
edit: and nothing irrational about hating a man that abandons me to a psycho with a gun when I am trying to rescue that mans family.
point 1 I disagreed with Lilly lots of times yet she never left me to die
point 2 I disagreed with Kenny ONCE and he left me to die
at no time was I hypocritical, Duck, Kenny, and Kat are a packaged deal and that is a package I don't wanna carry. I can't even trust that there is anything worthwhile in that package, only extra weight. You are literally nuts if you think a Team of Lee, Clem, Kenny, Kat, and Duck are superior to a team of Lee, Clem, Lilly, and Carly. Team Kenny is panicy (cowardly), brash (stupid). The only thing going for that team is Lee and Clem (yes Clem gets attacked a lot but she also pulls her own weight).
edit: and nothing irrational about hating a man that abandons me to a psycho with a gun when I am trying to rescue that mans family.
Lol, and once again CapnJay wins with his Schroedinger's paradox theory! In my playthrough, I was as truly neutral as possible (obviously in the kill Duck and kill Larry situations you cannot be, and in both I sided with Kenny), and KENNY saved my life in the barn, and it was Lilly who was going to let me die (despite being in no danger as I wrestled with a man by an electric fence). So even though she believes that I support her leadership skills (she tells me as much before dinnertime with the cannibals), she is still willing to let me die (vengeance is a strong motivator, but as I am trying to demonstrate to you, not always the right one. That's kind of why it isn't considered to be a virtue).
Besides, I would not be the one to advocate team "Kenny" - I've already pointed out here and other threads why Kenny, while being a good man, makes a poor leader (doesn't mean he deserves to die). Just like Lilly is also a poor leader. For now, I am advocating team Lee - it's always a winner!
OK, now that I've finished my three different playthroughs of Episode 2 I'm now a former Kenny fan, F*** Kenny.
My third save the silent and indecisive Lee playthrough was the decider, why?
In the meat locker if you let the time run out he shouts at Lee "your useless Lee!" and then violently shoves him to the ground before salt licking Larry. He then berates Lee to "hurry the f**k up!" with the air conditioner, it felt like OK, now that Larry's dead let's get back to saving my family and f**k Lilly. Lilly on the other hand will NOT hold it against Lee for doing nothing to help her dad or stopping Kenny and will actually help Lee twice with the brothers later on. Kenny only helps Lee with Andy if you agree with him otherwise he cowers in the cow pen and he tells Lee to get the gun off Andy, doesn't volunteer to do it himself! 2 versus 1 to Lilly! And the irony of Larry being pleasant towards the St. Johns while Kenny wanted to stage a violent coup on the farm as soon as he arrived! when at the time they were nothing but kind and helpful.
So my personal conclusion is that Kenny is no better of a man than Larry was, why?
1.Kenny saves you from walker with the axe in episode 1(even if you were an asshole).
Larry saves you from walker with the axe in episode 2(if he has it and Carley is dead) calls you an asshole.
2.Both put their family safety first(totally understandable) and are willing to crush someones head to save them from a perceived danger.
3.Both have a taint of cowardice in them. Larry cowered like a big baby behind the counter in the drugstore and Kenny didn't even try to save Shawn.
I just don't trust Kenny as much as I did and I remembered what Herschel said in episode 1 "wait until it's your little girl in danger next time"
I dread to think what Kenny would do if Clem choked on a peanut or something:
gives Lee a hammer and "hurry the f**k up Lee I don't want risk Duck being bitten!"
Episode 2 has opened my eyes and softened me towards Lilly, yes she can be hard, especially towards strangers but once your in the group she would have your back and I trust her loyalty more than Kenny's now. Sadly I'm 95% certain that she will be gone next episode and I suspect that her grief and hatred towards Kenny will cause her to snap and do something terrible, bye bye Katja!(sounds like a gunshot to me at the end of episode 3 preview). I just wish Lilly could stay and in the next episode Lee can get into a fist fight with Kenny, Larry showed in Episode 1 that Kenny can't throw or take a punch!
Apologies for a long post and well done Telltale, I don't think another game has made me think or care as much about it's story,decisions and characters before and I'm not even a big zombie/horror fan. Beautifully done and I send a virtual handshake to all the artists,writers,programmers and voice actors(A*).
Sisterofshane, you keep saying we want to see Kenny as a bad man and we do it but honestly you are doing the same. Most of your arguments are absolutely invalid except for the way you want them to be. You want to see Kenny as a good man and you make excuses for him. I want to see Kenny for who he really is and in my opinion he is not the guy you want him to be.
Sisterofshane, you keep saying we want to see Kenny as a bad man and we do it but honestly you are doing the same. Most of your arguments are absolutely invalid except for the way you want them to be. You want to see Kenny as a good man and you make excuses for him. I want to see Kenny for who he really is and in my opinion he is not the guy you want him to be.
My point of view is less pedantic than those that think that "bad decisions means bad man". It's really easy to be angry with him, it's much harder (nigh impossible) to truly put yourself in the man's shoes and understand why he makes the decisions he does.
For one, we really don't know what kind of background Kenny comes from. We can make reasonable guesses, but who knows if he ever suffered from some sort of malcontent before becoming the man he is today.
One part I liked about Larry was finding his wife's wedding ring in his pocket - it added another layer of depth to a man who was primarily gruff and unforgiving. He was a hard ass, for certain, but he was also a staunch family man who was (likely) deeply saddened by the loss of his wife. While we have seen Kenny's character develop, we really haven't been given his amount of keen insight of his background to explain WHY he is that way, in the same way we have for Larry. For example, it could be possible that he and Katjaa had difficulty conceiving Duck, which is why he so fiercely defends his son, as it is unlikely that they will ever get to start "again" if they ever lose Duck. He could have been horribly abused as a child, only to rise above it and decide to treat his family better than he had been treated.
Now,of course I'm speculating, but my point is that right now we just don't know. And I refuse to hate people until I have tried to see things from their point of view. This is why I refuse to project some malicious intent or evil motive on a man like Kenny. This is especially so in a setting where people are struggling just to live to see the next day.
Yeah, I'm sure you believe your point of view is superior :P
Thing is, we have our reasons to hate Kenny that are just as good. We would even say that they are better but this is just a matter of perception.
People are different so they react differently to situations. You may tolerate Kenny but I just can't stand his cowardly acts. Everybody has someone to protect but they don't abandon the group constantly.
If you read the comic book you will see that Rick Grimes also has a family to look for. Still he is probably one of the most selfless man in the series. So he want to protect his family is not an excuse in my book.
Not superior, not more right. It just requires more imagination to really put yourself in someone's shoes, and honestly I hope it is what other people would do for me before they get judgmental. I understand though that sometimes, in survival scenarios, that you can't always give somebody the benefit of the doubt.
Sisterofshane, you keep saying we want to see Kenny as a bad man and we do it but honestly you are doing the same. Most of your arguments are absolutely invalid except for the way you want them to be. You want to see Kenny as a good man and you make excuses for him. I want to see Kenny for who he really is and in my opinion he is not the guy you want him to be.
Pretty much this. And as much as she likes to cite Schrodinger's cat, she tends to succumb to the golden mean fallacy.
The point I've brought up, that none of the Kenny supporters have even attempted to contest is that his actions (or lack thereof) outside of decision points leave quite a bit to be desired. And more importantly, that his postive acts simply don't outweigh the negatives where the safety of the group is concerned. When somebody commits a crime, the fact that they have gone their entire lives without doing so beforehand might be brought up as a mitigating factor in determing punishment, but it's not a nullifying one.
Additionally, nevermind simply passing people that wanted help, in the same conversation we learn from Katjaa that Kenny ran over those people too. If somebody's brash/stupid and cowardly/prone to panic (semantics, you say tomato and all that), that's the guy you don't need or even want in a life or death situation.
Pretty much this. And as much as she likes to cite Schrodinger's cat, she tends to succumb to the golden mean fallacy.
The point I've brought up, that none of the Kenny supporters have even attempted to contest is that his actions (or lack thereof) outside of decision points leave quite a bit to be desired. And more importantly, that his postive acts simply don't outweigh the negatives where the safety of the group is concerned. When somebody commits a crime, the fact that they have gone their entire lives without doing so beforehand might be brought up as a mitigating factor in determing punishment, but it's not a nullifying one.
Additionally, nevermind simply passing people that wanted help, in the same conversation we learn from Katjaa that Kenny ran over those people too. If somebody's brash/stupid and cowardly/prone to panic (semantics, you say tomato and all that), that's the guy you don't need or even want in a life or death situation.
While I may be stressing that Kenny's character may not be so black and white, I am not inherently arguing for the purposes of staying determinedly in the middle of all extremes, therefore I am not presenting a fallacy.
I am explicitly against what the St. John's were doing at their dairy, for example. There is no "grey" when you resort to eating people. None, it's bad, every time all of the time.
Extremes DO exist - just not when you are talking about a person's overall character.
EDIT: Well, if you can only resort to brush offs and repeating the same old adage while ignoring the fact that what you claimed hasn't happened HAS, then I'm officially done here.
I don't really see Kenny as a grey character... and personally I don't care about anybody's background. They do not matter during a zombie apocalypse. What you do is the thing that matters and he just doesn't do what my group and I need him to do. I'm tired of saving Katja and Duck and then being left to rot.
It's interesting how the other characters would feel about him in episode 3 (Carley/Doug, Ben & Clem). I guess they won't be really excited about his decisions...
While I may be stressing that Kenny's character may not be so black and white, I am not inherently arguing for the purposes of staying determinedly in the middle of all extremes, therefore I am not presenting a fallacy.
I am explicitly against what the St. John's were doing at their dairy, for example. There is no "grey" when you resort to eating people. None, it's bad, every time all of the time.
Extremes DO exist - just not when you are talking about a person's overall character.
EDIT: Well, if you can only resort to brush offs and repeating the same old adage while ignoring the fact that what you claimed hasn't happened HAS, then I'm officially done here.
Except if you can assign extreme valuation to actions, there's not really any logical reason someone's character should be exempt either. A person's actions reveal and define their character, because those actions are how someone makes their intentions, values, etc. manifest. To use your own example, if there's no "grey" for cannibalism, it's always bad, etc. then why isn't that standard applicable to the cannibal?
To that end, if you have a guy like Kenny whose actions put the group in danger by potentially attracting the attention of hostiles because he loudly calls out or talks to himself (incidentally, there's a reason why we use hand signals in the military, but I digress), or the fact he's literally run over people who needed help in addition to his other "questionable" actions... then why is it unfair to judge his character by the same good/bad metric as we do for actions?
Yeah, I'm sure you believe your point of view is superior :P
Thing is, we have our reasons to hate Kenny that are just as good. We would even say that they are better but this is just a matter of perception.
People are different so they react differently to situations. You may tolerate Kenny but I just can't stand his cowardly acts. Everybody has someone to protect but they don't abandon the group constantly.
If you read the comic book you will see that Rick Grimes also has a family to look for. Still he is probably one of the most selfless man in the series. So he want to protect his family is not an excuse in my book.
actually Yami, In the Alexandra safe zone Rick admits to Andrea that he didnt try to protect anyone but his family, all the decisions he made were mad for them, If i remember correctly he even calls himself selfish in that same conversation
Yeah, he does say because he blames himself for not being able to help everyone. Despite his words that make me respect him even more, he still help his group, always. He is constantly putting his neck for others, you can't deny that. He is like reversed Kenny.
Kenny protects only his family and tries to justify himself, while Rick helps everybody but blames himself for not doing enough.
Not superior, not more right. It just requires more imagination to really put yourself in someone's shoes, and honestly I hope it is what other people would do for me before they get judgmental. I understand though that sometimes, in survival scenarios, that you can't always give somebody the benefit of the doubt.
Ridiculously pretentious.
People ARE putting themselves in Kenny's shoes, and I fully believe that the vast majority of morally upright human beings wouldn't carry out the acts of cowardice and idiocy that Kenny persists on doing.
Even if you ignore the Larry dilema (would you or would you not kill him) I would be utterly appauled by anyone who would leave a man to die in the way he did with Shawn and Lee (one was an act of cowardice, the other an act of spite). You can argue all you want against his other downfalls as a person, but those 2 situations prove what a total arsehole the man is, and like i've said, I fully believe that the vast majority of humanity would not do the same.
I tried saving Larry and did it fast enough that he actually made a noise and started to come back a bit before, BAM!~ Salt Lick...
I mean, Kenny was in the Wrong and he Killed one of his own when it REALLY could have been avoided.
back in the drugstore when you knocked down by larry you would've died if kenny didnt get you up so no need to hate someone who saved your life before:rolleyes:
Yeah Kenny is an idiot, i did the exact same thing! (as the op) I sided with him all the way through, until the part where he wanted to throw a brick on Larry, and he still shit out!
I am going to side with Lilly for the rest of the episodes now.
Hey just a quick question for those who chose to side with Lilly. During the preview for episode 3 are there any differences in the video or is it the same if you went with Kenny? Like do you still walk with Kenny through Macon and does Lilly still scream about one person screwing everything up?
Many of the buddies here think that Larry still alive... Wrong. If Kenny wouldn't save all the people in the meat locker bashing the Larry's head CORPSE he would come back as a zombie and he would bit to Lilly or Lee in first place.
Then you would notice that you are dead but you're good people... coward, of course, but good people.
This is tough but a zombie apocalypse i's not for everybody.
All of you blame Kenny for having the guts to do that and not supporting you after that... of course, do you think he likes to do that kind of stuff? He's protecting the group. And, of course, if you are not supporting him at doing that Lee would be a potential risk for everybody and for that reason Kenny doesn't want to be in the same place as you.
Maybe he acted as a coward back on Hershel's farm with Shawn but in that scene he makes the right thing.
Hey just a quick question for those who chose to side with Lilly. During the preview for episode 3 are there any differences in the video or is it the same if you went with Kenny? Like do you still walk with Kenny through Macon and does Lilly still scream about one person screwing everything up?
The scenes are the same but the dialogue is different. There's a couple of scenes which reflect the growing tension between Lee and Kenny, with Kenny saying "aw hell, not like you listen to me anymore."
Also, if you try to help Larry, Kenny is a complete asshole for the rest of episode 2. For example when I remarked that the car trunk was locked, he rebuffed me in an angry sarcastic tone for not using the keys right away, where as if you do it while on his good side, he'll be more friendly.
All of you blame Kenny for having the guts to do that and not supporting you after that... of course, do you think he likes to do that kind of stuff? He's protecting the group. And, of course, if you are not supporting him at doing that Lee would be a potential risk for everybody and for that reason Kenny doesn't want to be in the same place as you.
I saved his son. Twice. And he left me to die. Potential risk my ass.
Many of the buddies here think that Larry still alive... Wrong. If Kenny wouldn't save all the people in the meat locker bashing the Larry's head CORPSE he would come back as a zombie and he would bit to Lilly or Lee in first place.
I got there fast enough that Larry actually roused a bit, that is to say the CPR was working, right after that BAM! Salt Lick... Does your opinion change any, knowing this new info?
The scenes are the same but the dialogue is different. There's a couple of scenes which reflect the growing tension between Lee and Kenny, with Kenny saying "aw hell, not like you listen to me anymore."
Also, if you try to help Larry, Kenny is a complete asshole for the rest of episode 2. For example when I remarked that the car trunk was locked, he rebuffed me in an angry sarcastic tone for not using the keys right away, where as if you do it while on his good side, he'll be more friendly.
Gotcha thanks man, was a bit curious about that. Makes sense. I sided with kenny(as you guys probably already know haha) and my favorite part of the preview is when Lee and Kenny are walking through Macon and kenny brings up how Lilly is pissed. Lee goes "well we did just kill her dad" and Kenny responds with "We did KILL her dad," the way he says it cracks me up every time
I got there fast enough that Larry actually roused a bit, that is to say the CPR was working, right after that BAM! Salt Lick... Does your opinion change any, knowing this new info?
No, because he was converting at that moment. That thing was not Larry anymore.
You saw that the CPR was working. I see a corpse being reanimated as a zombie.
No, because he was converting at that moment. That thing was not Larry anymore.
You saw that the CPR was working. I see a corpse being reanimated as a zombie.
That's because you never got there quick enough. It only happens if you're fast enough. If you don't do the CPR fast enough he just lays there. If it were him turning, that wouldn't happen... Then again, I doubt logic will work with you. You're either trolling or REALLY REALLY stupid.
Then again you ARE siding with a Coward who only looks out for his Family, and sits idly by, ready to watch someone die, JUST because they didn't help them kill someone's father in front of them... Just saying, Logic.
To those who are a 100% that Larry was dead give some thought about this...
when Lee decides to help Lilly he asks "what about now,is he breathing?"
Lilly answers "no,no I don't think so..."
My thought process is that Lilly is in such of a state of anxiety and her own heart is racing so much that she isn't able to accurately deduce Larry's breathing and heartbeat. Notice that Kenny or Lee don't even check themselves to confirm if Larry has zero signs of life...
Lastly it seems the time it takes to turn varies i.e walker attacking Katjaa seemed to turn fast but if you kill Danny with the pitchfork he doesn't(sloppy job Lee). Does Lilly finish the job when Lee is confronting Brenda?
Comments
And what's wrong with deciding that you need extra help in order to up your chances of survival? Having a few healthy adults around is only going to benefit Lee as well (as Lee is still injured, and without ANY possessions that might help him to do anything except for out-stay his welcome on Herschel's Farm)
You can also easily say that he knew that the group was already doing what needed to be done, but he takes initiative in refocusing the group after the "group leader" becomes engrossed in her Dad's health. Seemed pretty effective to calm frazzled nerves and give everyone a purpose, if you ask me.
Wow. Your hindsight has is a perfect 20/20.:rolleyes: Kenny doesn't know what he is going to be up against, and he comes back to save your life regardless of your previous loyalty. If you honestly think this is a selfish act, then you probably have a relationship detachment disorder.
Again, you're making up a motive based on the kind of person you want Kenny to be, not on who he is. Both he and you/Mark come running thinking that the other is in trouble - Lee is the only person who can even say that he doesn't want to help the group free their member. Everyone else pushes him to help, and Kenny stands ground to give you time to do what needs to be done.
Oh yes, Kenny doesn't help Shawn because of ungratefulness. Not because his son was just rescued from danger and in the heat of the moment, he panicked. Seriously, not every thing he does has malicious intent behind it, and pretending it does MAKES YOU WRONG.
Repeating yourself over blind rage, or trying to pad this section to make it look larger than it is?
Lee does this as well in Clementines yard. Apart from just wandering around aimlessly, what else are they supposed to do? It was probably this call that also got them noticed by the group in the Drug store, so it wasn't completely detrimental, even if it was the fool-hardy thing to do.
You mean the one that went after Clementine in the drug store? Right after his kid just got threatened by the guy who is still standing in front of him? If we are going to fault Kenny for this, then we must also fault Lilly, Larry, Glenn, Doug, and Katjaa for not doing anything, either. You're not running around calling THEM bad people, are you?
He is only returning hostilities - Larry and Lilly are making it quite clear that they didn't want to help you out, and even then, he is happy to stay silent and let Glenn and Carly defend their actions. I believe the first thing that he says is "Lee, can you believe this Lady?". That might be confrontational, but it certaintly isn't aggressive, and frankly, for how many of you think that Larry's life is sacred, IT IS A SENTIMENT WITH WHICH YOU SHOULD ALL AGREE, because Lilly wasn't willing to risk her life to help out a group with two young children.
So by this thinking, you should have thrown Duck out to the walkers. It doesn't matter if he was actually bitten or not, you don't need a stupid member and you should take the opportunity to get rid of him now. Also, you should choose Doug over Carly, because THAT lady can't even check to see if a radio has batteries, and even when you HAND HER THE BATTERIES, she puts them in incorrectly. Also, why bother saving Larry in the meat locker? He hampers the group, he should go, whether he could have been saved or not (about the only thing he is good for is Lilly's loyalty).
too much to quote but...nothing wrong with needing extra help...that was my point, he drove past ppl who needed help and then asked others for it instead
so everyone needed something to do to "calm thier frazzled nerves" but him and kat
and if he didnt know what he was comming back for then it wasnt a lee rescue mission, just an oppurtunity to say, now you owe me Lee
and you are makeing kenny what you want by saying he came running incase Lee was in danger...(I might would believe that if his charector traits didnt leave me to feel otherwise)
the part about me padding was NOT repeating myself in a "blind rage"...before the zombie ate shawn, Lee cut wood...where was Kenny??? NOT HELPING. Then AFTER the zombie attack guess what...he DOESNT help again.
Lee did before he new anything...when Kenny does it they should know better
I dont mean the one that came after clem...I mean before they even got in, outside when Duck was attacked Carley saved Duck...what does Kenny do? (Guess the word NOTHI_G)
did Lilly advocate throwing Duck out...hmmm
no one said Larry's life is sacred...I have said many times that Larry is a dick...I am saying that KENNY is a peice of cowardly shit who betrayed me. (hence why I started a F*** Kenny" thread instead of a "Did Larry disearve to die?" thread.
and yes...I would get rid of duck in a heart beat...Your Lee can go off with Kenny in fam (that makes 3 adults and 1 child) and my Lee can go off with Lilly, Carly, and Clem (3 adults and 1 child) and the rest of the world can take bets on which Lee becomes a walker first, what do ya think?
By the way...check several threads as well as this one...you Kenny supporters are losing
Oh no! People aren't siding with a virtual character I did, and are instead jumping on the "Larry is an angel" bandwagon. What ever am I to do? I enjoy how you seem to think supporting Kenny is like some form of disease. :rolleyes:
I'd take Kenny any day of the week over Lilly. He's a good man that acts on impulse and can be emotional. At least he isn't afraid to start things to get stuff done and isn't afraid to take risks- unlike that hypocritical, whiny, no good witch of a woman. Larry was just as bad, but at least he didn't complain about how it was "so hawwwrd" being leader.
Until Lilly leaves soon and you leave everything to the group to either yourself or Kenny.
I really wish they had done an OC instead of Lilly, honestly. That way you had at least the potential for group hostilities until episode 5.
Not being in the Popular camp does not equate to being wrong (just sayin'). I think that is what TTG is aspiring to show in this game - that there are no wrong choices, there are only choices that you are willing to live with over others. It's going to be different for different people.
As for driving past other people, and then asking Lee for help, we don't really know the specifics of those cases. Would helping them have put Kenny and his family in danger? We just don't know. One thing we know for sure is that (short of risking your life), banding together for protection and safety does not make people selfish or stupid (which is the spin you are clearly trying to put on it, despite calling it a "good" part of Kenny's character).
Like I said, he just puts the group back into focus - it's not like he was intending to make everyone do "work" but himself. He pretty much just tells people to go about what they were doing. He then goes back to check on his kid and calm down his wife (who is sounding pretty nervous if you listen to ambient dialogue), all of whom just went through the harrowing experience of not only having a family member be jumped by a walker, but then had said family member be threatened to be killed. I don't blame them for not pitching in for awhile, just as Lilly doesn't pitch in to look after her Dad (despite claiming that she is really helpless to do anything for him), nor when Lee takes time to take care of/ check on Clementine.
And I didn't say that he didn't know what he was going back for - he was clearly going back to save Lee. Why else would he have returned? His family is secure in his truck, and there is nothing of value that he would need to risk his life for to come back to the drug store, other than Lee's life. He just didn't know what the situation was like back in the drug store - thus saying that he didn't really risk his life to save Lee is false.
And I seem to have misread your post above(and you misread one of mine, so let's call it even!), but just because he doesn't immediately return the favor for being allowed to rest in the barn doesn't mean that he wasn't EVER going to return the favor. Prescribing false motives does not make you any more right than anyone else here.
And how exactly was Lee doing anything in the situation with the Walker on top of Doug? The only people who get any bravery credits in THAT situation was Glenn and Carly, so my original point still stands. I don't irrationally hate Lilly for leaving me and Clem out to die in front of the drug store. Why do we need to hate Kenny for not playing the hero in every second of every day? Especially in situations where he may not have the given time to react (such as the ones that you and I both pointed out).
Lilly didn't have to "advocate" anything. If she felt differently than her father, but neglected to say anything just because it was her father, that makes her more cowardly than anyone else in that room. She doesn't even apologize for her father's behavior at any point - she just focuses on his heart condition and shifts the blame on your "violence", even AFTER Kenny promises that we will find her the keys to the pharmacy to save the life of the man who threatened his kid. Who's ungrateful, now?
The rest of your post proves to me EXACTLY how hypocritical you are being in your irrational Kenny hate-fest. You want to get rid of anyone who doesn't "mesh" with your survival (going so far as to say that you would get rid of a little kid!), and only hate on Kenny when he doesn't fall in line with YOUR bidding (which is the exact thing you claim to hate HIM for!). Yup, I really WOULD like to see who survives longer in the apocalypse...
point 1 I disagreed with Lilly lots of times yet she never left me to die
point 2 I disagreed with Kenny ONCE and he left me to die
at no time was I hypocritical, Duck, Kenny, and Kat are a packaged deal and that is a package I don't wanna carry. I can't even trust that there is anything worthwhile in that package, only extra weight. You are literally nuts if you think a Team of Lee, Clem, Kenny, Kat, and Duck are superior to a team of Lee, Clem, Lilly, and Carly. Team Kenny is panicy (cowardly), brash (stupid). The only thing going for that team is Lee and Clem (yes Clem gets attacked a lot but she also pulls her own weight).
edit: and nothing irrational about hating a man that abandons me to a psycho with a gun when I am trying to rescue that mans family.
Lol, and once again CapnJay wins with his Schroedinger's paradox theory! In my playthrough, I was as truly neutral as possible (obviously in the kill Duck and kill Larry situations you cannot be, and in both I sided with Kenny), and KENNY saved my life in the barn, and it was Lilly who was going to let me die (despite being in no danger as I wrestled with a man by an electric fence). So even though she believes that I support her leadership skills (she tells me as much before dinnertime with the cannibals), she is still willing to let me die (vengeance is a strong motivator, but as I am trying to demonstrate to you, not always the right one. That's kind of why it isn't considered to be a virtue).
Besides, I would not be the one to advocate team "Kenny" - I've already pointed out here and other threads why Kenny, while being a good man, makes a poor leader (doesn't mean he deserves to die). Just like Lilly is also a poor leader. For now, I am advocating team Lee - it's always a winner!
My third save the silent and indecisive Lee playthrough was the decider, why?
In the meat locker if you let the time run out he shouts at Lee "your useless Lee!" and then violently shoves him to the ground before salt licking Larry. He then berates Lee to "hurry the f**k up!" with the air conditioner, it felt like OK, now that Larry's dead let's get back to saving my family and f**k Lilly. Lilly on the other hand will NOT hold it against Lee for doing nothing to help her dad or stopping Kenny and will actually help Lee twice with the brothers later on. Kenny only helps Lee with Andy if you agree with him otherwise he cowers in the cow pen and he tells Lee to get the gun off Andy, doesn't volunteer to do it himself! 2 versus 1 to Lilly! And the irony of Larry being pleasant towards the St. Johns while Kenny wanted to stage a violent coup on the farm as soon as he arrived! when at the time they were nothing but kind and helpful.
So my personal conclusion is that Kenny is no better of a man than Larry was, why?
1.Kenny saves you from walker with the axe in episode 1(even if you were an asshole).
Larry saves you from walker with the axe in episode 2(if he has it and Carley is dead) calls you an asshole.
2.Both put their family safety first(totally understandable) and are willing to crush someones head to save them from a perceived danger.
3.Both have a taint of cowardice in them. Larry cowered like a big baby behind the counter in the drugstore and Kenny didn't even try to save Shawn.
I just don't trust Kenny as much as I did and I remembered what Herschel said in episode 1 "wait until it's your little girl in danger next time"
I dread to think what Kenny would do if Clem choked on a peanut or something:
gives Lee a hammer and "hurry the f**k up Lee I don't want risk Duck being bitten!"
Episode 2 has opened my eyes and softened me towards Lilly, yes she can be hard, especially towards strangers but once your in the group she would have your back and I trust her loyalty more than Kenny's now. Sadly I'm 95% certain that she will be gone next episode and I suspect that her grief and hatred towards Kenny will cause her to snap and do something terrible, bye bye Katja!(sounds like a gunshot to me at the end of episode 3 preview). I just wish Lilly could stay and in the next episode Lee can get into a fist fight with Kenny, Larry showed in Episode 1 that Kenny can't throw or take a punch!
Apologies for a long post and well done Telltale, I don't think another game has made me think or care as much about it's story,decisions and characters before and I'm not even a big zombie/horror fan. Beautifully done and I send a virtual handshake to all the artists,writers,programmers and voice actors(A*).
My point of view is less pedantic than those that think that "bad decisions means bad man". It's really easy to be angry with him, it's much harder (nigh impossible) to truly put yourself in the man's shoes and understand why he makes the decisions he does.
For one, we really don't know what kind of background Kenny comes from. We can make reasonable guesses, but who knows if he ever suffered from some sort of malcontent before becoming the man he is today.
One part I liked about Larry was finding his wife's wedding ring in his pocket - it added another layer of depth to a man who was primarily gruff and unforgiving. He was a hard ass, for certain, but he was also a staunch family man who was (likely) deeply saddened by the loss of his wife. While we have seen Kenny's character develop, we really haven't been given his amount of keen insight of his background to explain WHY he is that way, in the same way we have for Larry. For example, it could be possible that he and Katjaa had difficulty conceiving Duck, which is why he so fiercely defends his son, as it is unlikely that they will ever get to start "again" if they ever lose Duck. He could have been horribly abused as a child, only to rise above it and decide to treat his family better than he had been treated.
Now,of course I'm speculating, but my point is that right now we just don't know. And I refuse to hate people until I have tried to see things from their point of view. This is why I refuse to project some malicious intent or evil motive on a man like Kenny. This is especially so in a setting where people are struggling just to live to see the next day.
Thing is, we have our reasons to hate Kenny that are just as good. We would even say that they are better but this is just a matter of perception.
People are different so they react differently to situations. You may tolerate Kenny but I just can't stand his cowardly acts. Everybody has someone to protect but they don't abandon the group constantly.
If you read the comic book you will see that Rick Grimes also has a family to look for. Still he is probably one of the most selfless man in the series. So he want to protect his family is not an excuse in my book.
Pretty much this. And as much as she likes to cite Schrodinger's cat, she tends to succumb to the golden mean fallacy.
The point I've brought up, that none of the Kenny supporters have even attempted to contest is that his actions (or lack thereof) outside of decision points leave quite a bit to be desired. And more importantly, that his postive acts simply don't outweigh the negatives where the safety of the group is concerned. When somebody commits a crime, the fact that they have gone their entire lives without doing so beforehand might be brought up as a mitigating factor in determing punishment, but it's not a nullifying one.
Additionally, nevermind simply passing people that wanted help, in the same conversation we learn from Katjaa that Kenny ran over those people too. If somebody's brash/stupid and cowardly/prone to panic (semantics, you say tomato and all that), that's the guy you don't need or even want in a life or death situation.
While I may be stressing that Kenny's character may not be so black and white, I am not inherently arguing for the purposes of staying determinedly in the middle of all extremes, therefore I am not presenting a fallacy.
I am explicitly against what the St. John's were doing at their dairy, for example. There is no "grey" when you resort to eating people. None, it's bad, every time all of the time.
Extremes DO exist - just not when you are talking about a person's overall character.
EDIT: Well, if you can only resort to brush offs and repeating the same old adage while ignoring the fact that what you claimed hasn't happened HAS, then I'm officially done here.
It's interesting how the other characters would feel about him in episode 3 (Carley/Doug, Ben & Clem). I guess they won't be really excited about his decisions...
Except if you can assign extreme valuation to actions, there's not really any logical reason someone's character should be exempt either. A person's actions reveal and define their character, because those actions are how someone makes their intentions, values, etc. manifest. To use your own example, if there's no "grey" for cannibalism, it's always bad, etc. then why isn't that standard applicable to the cannibal?
To that end, if you have a guy like Kenny whose actions put the group in danger by potentially attracting the attention of hostiles because he loudly calls out or talks to himself (incidentally, there's a reason why we use hand signals in the military, but I digress), or the fact he's literally run over people who needed help in addition to his other "questionable" actions... then why is it unfair to judge his character by the same good/bad metric as we do for actions?
actually Yami, In the Alexandra safe zone Rick admits to Andrea that he didnt try to protect anyone but his family, all the decisions he made were mad for them, If i remember correctly he even calls himself selfish in that same conversation
Kenny protects only his family and tries to justify himself, while Rick helps everybody but blames himself for not doing enough.
so true
The only difference is that Larry doesn't try to hide it, therefor earns lot more respect than that cunt Kenny.
He looks like a total gimp too (Kenny that is).
People ARE putting themselves in Kenny's shoes, and I fully believe that the vast majority of morally upright human beings wouldn't carry out the acts of cowardice and idiocy that Kenny persists on doing.
Even if you ignore the Larry dilema (would you or would you not kill him) I would be utterly appauled by anyone who would leave a man to die in the way he did with Shawn and Lee (one was an act of cowardice, the other an act of spite). You can argue all you want against his other downfalls as a person, but those 2 situations prove what a total arsehole the man is, and like i've said, I fully believe that the vast majority of humanity would not do the same.
I mean, Kenny was in the Wrong and he Killed one of his own when it REALLY could have been avoided.
This ^^^
I am going to side with Lilly for the rest of the episodes now.
Then you would notice that you are dead but you're good people... coward, of course, but good people.
This is tough but a zombie apocalypse i's not for everybody.
All of you blame Kenny for having the guts to do that and not supporting you after that... of course, do you think he likes to do that kind of stuff? He's protecting the group. And, of course, if you are not supporting him at doing that Lee would be a potential risk for everybody and for that reason Kenny doesn't want to be in the same place as you.
Maybe he acted as a coward back on Hershel's farm with Shawn but in that scene he makes the right thing.
The scenes are the same but the dialogue is different. There's a couple of scenes which reflect the growing tension between Lee and Kenny, with Kenny saying "aw hell, not like you listen to me anymore."
Also, if you try to help Larry, Kenny is a complete asshole for the rest of episode 2. For example when I remarked that the car trunk was locked, he rebuffed me in an angry sarcastic tone for not using the keys right away, where as if you do it while on his good side, he'll be more friendly.
I saved his son. Twice. And he left me to die. Potential risk my ass.
I got there fast enough that Larry actually roused a bit, that is to say the CPR was working, right after that BAM! Salt Lick... Does your opinion change any, knowing this new info?
Gotcha thanks man, was a bit curious about that. Makes sense. I sided with kenny(as you guys probably already know haha) and my favorite part of the preview is when Lee and Kenny are walking through Macon and kenny brings up how Lilly is pissed. Lee goes "well we did just kill her dad" and Kenny responds with "We did KILL her dad," the way he says it cracks me up every time
No, because he was converting at that moment. That thing was not Larry anymore.
You saw that the CPR was working. I see a corpse being reanimated as a zombie.
That's because you never got there quick enough. It only happens if you're fast enough. If you don't do the CPR fast enough he just lays there. If it were him turning, that wouldn't happen... Then again, I doubt logic will work with you. You're either trolling or REALLY REALLY stupid.
Then again you ARE siding with a Coward who only looks out for his Family, and sits idly by, ready to watch someone die, JUST because they didn't help them kill someone's father in front of them... Just saying, Logic.
when Lee decides to help Lilly he asks "what about now,is he breathing?"
Lilly answers "no,no I don't think so..."
My thought process is that Lilly is in such of a state of anxiety and her own heart is racing so much that she isn't able to accurately deduce Larry's breathing and heartbeat. Notice that Kenny or Lee don't even check themselves to confirm if Larry has zero signs of life...
Lastly it seems the time it takes to turn varies i.e walker attacking Katjaa seemed to turn fast but if you kill Danny with the pitchfork he doesn't(sloppy job Lee). Does Lilly finish the job when Lee is confronting Brenda?
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Zombies