@ sisterofshane I was being sarcastic. I am not saying that anyone needs a second chance or no chance...I am saying we do NOT kill a human (who hasn't turned) unless dirctly attacked...period. We DONT make assumptions. Suppose in the comming episodes the group is attacked by zombies and in the fight someone (anyone, Clem, Duck, Katja, Kenny, Yourself) goes tumbling down a hill and into some barbed wire...after the action has died down do we doctor that persons wounds as best we can or do we ASSUME some of that shredded skin could be from a zombie bite and wait for Kenn's saltlick + 5 to come out? The point is that we DONT just decide to smack a brain because its convienient.
Look at Kenny's face after killing Larry, even he knows it was a mistake.
I can't say I've ever mistaken barbed wire cuts for human bites, pardner.
Even then, there's a big difference between being out in the open with a potential for disaster, and being inside what was more or less an over glorified jail cell with a potential ticking time bomb.
My last attempt at this post got wasted by my POS computer so let's hope this one works.
Let me explain where I am coming from:
1. The point about being bitten is this: it doesn't matter if you manage to kill the zombie and get out, if you get bit you ARE GOING TO DIE! I don't think some people understand this point, it doesn't matter whether people have survived for hours after being bit, they will still die, and if you get bit then you will die and it will be game over. There has only ever been one know survivor of being bitten and he only survived because he had the bitten limb amputated immediately after being bit. Zombie Larry bites Lily, she dies. Zombie Larry bites Lee, he dies. Zombie Larry bites Kenny, he dies. Only takes a moment.
2. In my playthrough the zombie in the back of the pickup truck had his leg chopped off, and yet it still took three guys using planks and axes to kill him and he also instakills you if you fail to keep him off you! Larry is 300 lbs, whether you believe that gives him extra strength or not it's still more weight he can bear than the one in the pickup truck when he's on top of your trying to bite your throat out, and you have no weapons this time. Salt lick? Yeah, if someone tries that while he's on top of you and they'll take out both your heads, and that's assuming they don't miss...
3. It only takes a moment. Seriously, hasn't anyone noticed how fast these zombies can kill people? Carley's death sequence is pretty much having her intestines ripped out by one zombie. Zombie Larry wakes up and rips Lily's face off before anyone has a chance to react. While Zombie Larry is held off by Lee and Kenny, Zombie Lily wakes up and makes a grab for Clementine...and before anyone says that wouldn't happen so fast, Brenda St John is turned pretty damn fast to be already be a zombie and out of the house like she is at the end...
The point I'm making is that to say that a Zombie Larry would not slaughter the whole bunch of them in that situation is to kid yourselves. The whole point is that it is a risk, an incredibly big risk that puts the entire group at risk. Kenny was doing what he felt was right, I'm not saying that it was right, on the contrary I believe he was wrong and tried to save Larry myself but the whole situation is intended to be a moral dilemna. You've really got to look at it from the viewpoints of the characters not from the omnipresent viewpoint we got: they don't know how fast people change usually or how soon a newly turned zombie can start acting at full power, they don't know that they will win because the player will just reload from the previous save, they are in danger!
As for whether Larry would have killed Duck: yes he would. It was purely the fact that people were standing up to him that stopped Duck from being hurtled out the door, despite his size no one enters into a fight with multiple people freely especially since a knife to the gut drops anyone. It seems to me that some people seem to want to elevate Larry while demonise Kenny, but the fact is that Larry would have killed Duck and his attempted murder of Lee is no better than Kenny's murder of Larry (and any attempts to justify it raises the question of why you don't try to justify it for Kenny, if you can understand why Larry wanted to kill Lee then you can understand why Kenny wanted to kill Larry). They both are looking out for their own agendas and they are both hypocritical, do you think if the situation was reversed and it was Lily that was thought of being bit that he would have demanded she get chucked out too?
I wasn't really metagaming, but tying into my other points, that if you can't immediately disable walker Larry, there is no way that you would be able to indefinitely out-manuever him, and the longer you try, the less likely it is to get away. how long do you think YOU would last in that specific situation, with no weapon to protect you, other than a salt lick, which slows down your movements, ties up your hands, and isn't really useful against a moving Walker.
The ENTIRE POINT I was trying to make was that, even IF you were able to continually escape, you would eventually realize that there was no way out of the room, and that you would eventually have to kill the Walker, which is NOW next to impossible without getting hurt, if not killed and bitten.
I think that it would be very easy for 4 people to outmaneuver a lone zombie. Zombies aren't very smart and not capable of pulling feint attacks so as he is single mindedly going after one the other 3 could definatley overpower him safetly.
Walkers also don't reanimate without some warning, both the cop at the beginning and the person in the pickup make fairly distinct noises before they become "active".
Really? The first noise I heard from the zombie pickup guy was a groan AS he attacked Katjaa, there was no prior 'activation' noise and the noise he did make was the usual zombie attack noise.
Look at Kenny's face after killing Larry, even he knows it was a mistake.
That was a look of horror, soldiers often get that look after they killed their first man, doesn't mean he thinks it's a mistake just that he's horrified at the situation, as any normal person would be.
@ sisterofshane I was being sarcastic. I am not saying that anyone needs a second chance or no chance...I am saying we do NOT kill a human (who hasn't turned) unless dirctly attacked...period. We DONT make assumptions. Suppose in the comming episodes the group is attacked by zombies and in the fight someone (anyone, Clem, Duck, Katja, Kenny, Yourself) goes tumbling down a hill and into some barbed wire...after the action has died down do we doctor that persons wounds as best we can or do we ASSUME some of that shredded skin could be from a zombie bite and wait for Kenn's saltlick + 5 to come out? The point is that we DONT just decide to smack a brain because its convienient.
Look at Kenny's face after killing Larry, even he knows it was a mistake.
You were not being sarcastic, you were being facetious to illustrate a point. The point you were trying to make is moot, because saying EVERYONE in EVERY SITUATION deserves a second chance is to diminish the danger of the situation you were in, not to mention that it will eventually get you killed.
And to NOT make up a hypothetical situation, we can take Larry's behavior in the drug store regarding Duck. Larry's demand to immediately get rid of Duck was absurd. He could not guarantee that Duck was bitten, and even if he WAS, he talks from a viewpoint of someone that should understand that a bitten person doesn't immediately turn into a Walker, so the process of finding the bite was putting no one in any immediate danger. That is the kind of situation in which you should give a second chance, and the potential threat should be given a benefit of the doubt.
And I DIDN'T just decide to "smack a brain" for convenience, and technically neither did Kenny. To him (and to myself), the risk was too great to attempt to resuscitate in that given situation.
Jazzy, I believe you don't really get MY point. Larry isn't really the easiest person to be around, although he soften up to my Lee. However the point is in something else.
When someone braver and more selfless than you tries to do good, you don't just fuck things up because it suits you better.
My Lee decided that he will risk his life to save Larry. Lilly decided she will risk her life to save Larry. It's their goddamn choice. It's their life they are putting at risk and their decision. Kenny disregarding that was the worst thing he could've done. It clearly shows how much he cares about other people's beliefs and choices.
Now, all those explanations how fast a person reanimates are bullshit. You can't know for sure how long it will take for a bitten person to reanimate or for a bitten one to die. The girl in the motor inn survived pretty damn long after being bitten. So even if Lee or Lilly was bitten, they wouldn't die right away unless they were ripped off like Shawn. That can't really happen with all those people in the room. So even if they didn't manage to kill the zombie without anyone being bitten, that person can still help to finish the zombie. But that doesn't really matter! People should learn to respect other's choices! What Kenny did was beyond abominable. He believed his way was the right way. Well I don't agree so he can burn in hell for all I care. Kenny is the kind of guy who see things as his way and the wrong way. You disagree with him = he let's you die.
WOW...too much for me to quote...first then...no more hypotheticle questions, lets just go with what we know from this game, not the books, not the show, just the game.
just how dangerous would a zombie Larry be?
Duck, a young kid, manages to keep from being pulled off the tractor long enough for Lee/Kenny to pull him off...these were full grown zombies vs a young kid
Duck is also able to keep a zombie on top of him from getting the fatal bite long enough for Carly to save him
Lee continues to puch, kick, and head slam them around like rag dolls
...the point here, they are NOT very strong whether they are fetus zombies or 300 lbs gorrilla zombies...
next, it took the guy in the truck plenty of time to turn...proof you ask...ok
he died, Katja called you over and yall have at least a 90 sec convo before he attacks...
so change isnt instantanious
also the pickup truck got katja by surprise because no one was exspecting the turn not because of a super zombie speed thing...and though it was a surprise Lee, who was totally unaware, was able to save her so now we are to believe that a watchfull Lee wouldnt be able to stop Larry from biting him or Lilly?
as for the weight argument...Larry was PRONE, his weight is not an advantage to him in that position...if anything it would be a hinderance to itself...
and why would he "rapid bite" everyone there when no zombie has done that...the teacher zombie attacked katja cause she was closest, once lee saved her he when after lee cause lee was there, if the zombie was all about bite, as many pple as posible he would of reached up and bit Larry while he struggled with the axe...no why the zombie didn't...cause they are fucking stupid...
so yes, three fully alive and watchful humans (and a very brite child) can overpower a stupid, slow, 300 lbs prone zombie
@YamiRaziel, would you respect another persons choice to blow up a bridge that you are on? How about another person's choice to lock you up in a room with a known serial killer?
All fine and dandy that YOU should decide to risk your life, but you can't be mad at somebody else when they decide that you are not allowed to risk theirs.
Sisterofshane, for the last time, Kenny was not in danger. Read what I and deadk1ng wrote and finally realize that zombie Larry isn't superman. Plus blowing up a bridge is something destructive in its nature. Saving a human's life is not.
WOW...too much for me to quote...first then...no more hypotheticle questions, lets just go with what we know from this game, not the books, not the show, just the game.
*snip for brevity*
The strength of the zombies seems to be variable within the game, as well as the strength of the non-zombie characters, which seems to change with the needs of the narrative (i.e., Lee can be pulled over by the relatively small babysitter if he is not quick enough to bash her brains in, but can use his foot to smash in the head of the zombie at the drug store). So no one would really be correct in saying absolutes about the strengths of any one particular zombie.
One thing I would point out is that, unless properly planned and executed (such as when Carley, Glenn, and Doug clear the Motor Inn), almost every situation in which a Walker is encountered requires some form of assistance in order to escape, and usually some sort of weapon to damage the brain (the ONLY scene to the contrary being where Lee stomps in the head of the Walker who was attempting to get Clementine).
The change is NOT instantaneous, correct, but in Larry's situation we know that he would be considered "dead" at the moment of starting CPR (which, we would hope would restart the heart and breathing, or would be enough to get oxygen to keep his brain alive long enough to be transferred to a place where we can "shock" his heart back into activity, even then it wouldn't guarantee that is would work to keep it that way). So now we have to decide - is it possible that the virus could already be taking over? We don't know for certain when "brain" death will actually occur, so it's hard to say, but by the time you get to make the decision to help Lilly, Larry's brain may already be gone. That could mean that Larry will reanimate sooner rather than later.
Take into account what everyone's emotional state will be (Clementine will be frightened, Lilly has to deal with her Dad having just become a walker, and Kenny still is separated from his family), then Lee might just be the only level-headed person left. Even if everyone did EVERYTHING right, the possibility for injury/death is still there. And we CAN'T just avoid a zombie Larry indefinitely, like I said in another post above, especially when we don't know how aggressively it will come after us.
Basically, if you decided to try to save Larry, you're gambling with everyone's lives. Wishing you could accurately predict what would happen afterwards is just wishful thinking meant to make you feel better for taking the risk.
Sisterofshane, for the last time, Kenny was not in danger. Read what I and deadk1ng wrote and finally realize that zombie Larry isn't superman. Plus blowing up a bridge is something destructive in its nature. Saving a human's life is not.
Then maybe Kenny, instead of dropping a massive block on her farther's skull, should have instead politely advised her take up a safer position.
This isn't how Kenny thinks though, if he even thinks at all.
He does - he apologizes to Lilly, and tries to reason with her. Once he realizes that she's consumed with performing CPR, he attempts to reason with Lee. He already knows that Lilly is never going to willingly give up on her Dad.
When you go against his decision, he takes matters into his own hands.
@YamiRaziel, would you respect another persons choice to blow up a bridge that you are on? How about another person's choice to lock you up in a room with a known serial killer?
All fine and dandy that YOU should decide to risk your life, but you can't be mad at somebody else when they decide that you are not allowed to risk theirs.
That's a pretty strange comparison.
Both of those choices seem geared towards murdering me/him, so no, what does this prove though? That I wouldn't respect the wishes of a man who wished to murder me? Because that is not in any way the same as what Lee wished.
The wish of Lilly and Lee was that the could have a chance at reviving Lilly's father with CPR as there was still a chance. There was obviously risks involved but they were risks worth taking to save a member of the group. It was the same with Lee (and Carly the 2nd time) saving Duck (and Lee saving Katjaa from the zombie, and again from the crazy wifey pointing a pistol at you on the stairs), there were huge risks involved and both put their lives in danger to save Kenny's son. So what do we do in the future when the little idiot gets himself grabbed by a zombie horde again? Do we just leave him to die and accept the loss of 1 member as it's better than the potential loss of more? Because that's what Kenny did, he didn't care about the loss of Larry because he didn't like the man (and most importantly he wasn't a member of his immediate family), he also didn't get along with Lilly, so why should he put his life at risk for those people? That's how Kenny sees it.
Sisterofshane, I can say the same I guess this only means Telltale did a really good job with episode 2. I would be really bored the past few days if it wasn't for this topic
Kinky John Fowler, that's absolutely true. That's how Kenny thinks and acts.
Sisterofshane, I can say the same I guess this only means Telltale did a really good job with episode 2. I would be really bored the past few days if it wasn't for this topic
OMG, are we agreeing on something?
Somebody better make sure the space-time continuum is in tact!:D
Infact why did Lee, Clem and Lilly even try to save Katjaa and Duck? There were HUGE risks involved in saving those 2. Why didn't they just tell Carly/Doug to turn around and everyone pile back to the motorhome?
If the situation was reversed and it was Lee and Clem being held hostage I have no doubts that that is exactly what Kenny would do.
Because they hadn't "died" yet, for one. As for the second question, my Kenny would do everything he could to save Lee. He's a good friend- has been since he saved my live at the Drug Store.
Both of those choices seem geared towards murdering me/him, so no, what does this prove though? That I wouldn't respect the wishes of a man who wished to murder me? Because that is not in any way the same as what Lee wished.
The wish of Lilly and Lee was that the could have a chance at reviving Lilly's father with CPR as there was still a chance. There was obviously risks involved but they were risks worth taking to save a member of the group. It was the same with Lee (and Carly the 2nd time) saving Duck (and Lee saving Katjaa from the zombie, and again from the crazy wifey pointing a pistol at you on the stairs), there were huge risks involved and both put their lives in danger to save Kenny's son. So what do we do in the future when the little idiot gets himself grabbed by a zombie horde again? Do we just leave him to die and accept the loss of 1 member as it's better than the potential loss of more? Because that's what Kenny did, he didn't care about the loss of Larry because he didn't like the man (and most importantly he wasn't a member of his immediate family), he also didn't get along with Lilly, so why should he put his life at risk for those people? That's how Kenny sees it.
Only because they're not fleshed out. The basic concept is the same - would you respect someone's choice, if it risked your life, regardless of what their intention may be?
Choosing to risk your own life is often thought of as a "no-brainer" decision - when asked if we WOULD, most of us unanimously say "Yes". I think the practice of the concept would destroy most people's concept of the depth of their heroics. (As, don't judge Kenny until you've walked a mile in his shoes).
Because they hadn't "died" yet, for one. As for the second question, my Kenny would do everything he could to save Lee. He's a good friend- has been since he saved my live at the Drug Store.
This is because he has you under his grotesque thumb, you are Kenny's bitch and he'll use you untill you finally click. I was the same but I saw the error of my ways and now i'm free the air is much clearer.
Also Larry wasn't 'dead' he'd had a heart attack but there was no evidence that he had died (and infact it is impractical that he would have actually died that soon), Lee also didn't know if Katjaa was still alive when he approached the house. But in anycase the fact still remains, Kenny is happy for everyone to run about putting themselves in huge danger saving his family but he isn't willing to do the same in return.
Only because they're not fleshed out. The basic concept is the same - would you respect someone's choice, if it risked your life, regardless of what their intention may be?
If the choice was to allow someone a few minutes to attempt to resuscitate their father then yes, yes I would respect that choice.
If the choice was to allow someone a few minutes to attempt to resuscitate their father then yes, yes I would respect that choice.
I guess you didn't read what I put after that. It's easy to say "yes". It's harder to actually do it.
Another "morally grey question" - would you risk the life of other people for the choice that you make? This is a question very well suited to this situation, because you have to factor in that, if you made the WRONG decision, you have not put only yourself in danger, but everyone else in that room with you.
Really? The first noise I heard from the zombie pickup guy was a groan AS he attacked Katjaa, there was no prior 'activation' noise and the noise he did make was the usual zombie attack noise.
It starts at the time she asks about Ben, immediately after that there's a fairly unsubtle creaking from the truck bed as he starts moving, then he grabs Katjaa. Granted, we're not talking about a lot of advance warning, but in both cases there's atleast a couple seconds that tells you something bad is about to happen.
I guess you didn't read what I put after that. It's easy to say "yes". It's harder to actually do it.
Another "morally grey question" - would you risk the life of other people for the choice that you make? This is a question very well suited to this situation, because you have to factor in that, if you made the WRONG decision, you have not put only yourself in danger, but everyone else in that room with you.
No, sorry, i'm pretty positive that in such a situation I wouldn't have crushed a mans head infront of his daughter the moment he hit the ground. I'm actually 100% sure I would have given the poor girl atleast a few minutes to try and revive him.
And again, yes, 'I would risk other peoples lives' in an effort to save another, I would expect everyone at the scene to chip in and do the same too however, and not have some daft upstart go against everyones wishes to cut the rope at the first oppotunity and claim to be the real hero.
I guess you didn't read what I put after that. It's easy to say "yes". It's harder to actually do it.
Another "morally grey question" - would you risk the life of other people for the choice that you make? This is a question very well suited to this situation, because you have to factor in that, if you made the WRONG decision, you have not put only yourself in danger, but everyone else in that room with you.
you mean the way Kenny put us all in danger in that room by acting without thinking that Lilly may actually snap and try to kill everyone...or when he put everyone in danger by attracting a cities worth of zombies by yelling like a fool...how he (not only endagered) but directly contributed to Shawns death by running away, how he endagered me by not helping with Danny, how he endangers the whole group by fixing an RV instead of the wall...
He "may" have his heart in the right place in reguards to HIS family...he "may" not be a PEICE of BETRAYING SHIT...but he IS a liability no matter what his intentions, more so than even Duck and he is borderline Forrest Gump...Kenny is slow to help, unable to be resoned with, and a coward...any disaggreements on this
@merc so no disaggreement to this "he IS a liability no matter what his intentions, more so than even Duck and he is borderline Forrest Gump...Kenny is slow to help, unable to be resoned with, and a coward...any disaggreements on this "
you mean the way Kenny put us all in danger in that room by acting without thinking that Lilly may actually snap and try to kill everyone...or when he put everyone in danger by attracting a cities worth of zombies by yelling like a fool...how he (not only endagered) but directly contributed to Shawns death by running away, how he endagered me by not helping with Danny, how he endangers the whole group by fixing an RV instead of the wall...
He "may" have his heart in the right place in reguards to HIS family...he "may" not be a PEICE of BETRAYING SHIT...but he IS a liability no matter what his intentions, more so than even Duck and he is borderline Forrest Gump...Kenny is slow to help, unable to be resoned with, and a coward...any disaggreements on this
And at that point, everyone is a liability to you. So abandon everyone, including Clementine, and try to make it on your own. After all, you can't guarantee one hundred percent that everyone would always do the safe thing, right?
And at that point, everyone is a liability to you. So abandon everyone, including Clementine, and try to make it on your own. After all, you can't guarantee one hundred percent that everyone would always do the safe thing, right?
nope...sure cant, but carly always seems to be there in a crises, not so much Kenny...Doug even helps more than he hinders, not so much Kenny...in fact Clementine has done more for the group then the who Kenny family combined...I strongly believe, just from what I have seen in this game, that Lilly, Carly/Doug, Lee and Clem can survive more efficiantly and for longer than Kenny, his Brood, and Ben if he chooses to go with them...
Do you honestly belive that it would be best for Lee and Clem to depend on Kenny and fam...?
nope...sure cant, but carly always seems to be there in a crises, not so much Kenny...Doug even helps more than he hinders, not so much Kenny...in fact Clementine has done more for the group then the who Kenny family combined...I strongly believe, just from what I have seen in this game, that Lilly, Carly/Doug, Lee and Clem can survive more efficiantly and for longer than Kenny, his Brood, and Ben if he chooses to go with them...
Do you honestly belive that it would be best for Lee and Clem to depend on Kenny and fam...?
About as much as I believe Kenny and his family could rely upon Lee and Clementine. You get out what you put in, as the old saying goes.
you mean the way Kenny put us all in danger in that room by acting without thinking that Lilly may actually snap and try to kill everyone...or when he put everyone in danger by attracting a cities worth of zombies by yelling like a fool...how he (not only endagered) but directly contributed to Shawns death by running away, how he endagered me by not helping with Danny, how he endangers the whole group by fixing an RV instead of the wall...
He "may" have his heart in the right place in reguards to HIS family...he "may" not be a PEICE of BETRAYING SHIT...but he IS a liability no matter what his intentions, more so than even Duck and he is borderline Forrest Gump...Kenny is slow to help, unable to be resoned with, and a coward...any disaggreements on this
It's kinda funny, but thinking on it, Duck actually kinda looks like a young Forrest Gump too...
But yeah, Kenny's not the guy you want to be with in a crisis. It's not even a matter of his track record being "iffy", it's downright horrible. If the chips are down and it's a choice between doing what's best for the group or what he thinks is best for his family, the group'll lose everytime - not that I necessarily blame him for that, except for the fact the chips are going to be down far more with Kenny (e.g. the aforementioned incident with attracting a horde of walkers).
At the end of the day, the fact remains that Kenny's the first member of the group to kill another member, and advocated taking the Dairy by force, even when the family was apparently friendly (and offering to feed the group no less). Then immediately upon entering the bloody room in the barn after escaping from the meat locker, he puts the group at risk by sitting there and talking to himself.
Rick wanted to take some places by force too, he had family to look for too, but by no means we can compare the awesomeness of Rick Grimes with that asshole Kenny.
Kenny has proven without doubt that he is the biggest danger to the group and has been responsible for probably half (if not more) of the attacks the group suffer. He needs to sort it out or leave (without the RV) before he gets anyone else killed (he has already been responsible for Doug & Shawn's death, and arguably Larry's too), the man is a total fuckwit.
The rest of the group so far havn't put anyone in danger through their own idiotic or selfish actions, so there would be no reason to abandon them. You would also be in even bigger danger 'going it alone', you need a group to maximise your odds of survival, you just need everyone in that group to have a backbone and a modicum of common sense.
Kenny's sole contribution so far has been to drop me of at Macon, if only that was where we said our goodbyes.
Rick wanted to take some places by force too, he had family to look for too, but by no means we can compare the awesomeness of Rick Grimes with that asshole Kenny.
If those places had residents that were welcoming and friendly to the group, I wouldn't agree with trying to take them by force either. Family or no. Lee's quite right when he tells Mark "we need to make these people like us" (granted that turned out to be moot, but it's not like the group knew it at the time).
While most people like to quote Machiavelli in a situation like this, they tend to forget that the whole "it's better to be feared than loved" line was written as satire - due to the simple fact that people who love you do so even while you're sleeping.
Comments
I can't say I've ever mistaken barbed wire cuts for human bites, pardner.
Even then, there's a big difference between being out in the open with a potential for disaster, and being inside what was more or less an over glorified jail cell with a potential ticking time bomb.
Let me explain where I am coming from:
1. The point about being bitten is this: it doesn't matter if you manage to kill the zombie and get out, if you get bit you ARE GOING TO DIE! I don't think some people understand this point, it doesn't matter whether people have survived for hours after being bit, they will still die, and if you get bit then you will die and it will be game over. There has only ever been one know survivor of being bitten and he only survived because he had the bitten limb amputated immediately after being bit. Zombie Larry bites Lily, she dies. Zombie Larry bites Lee, he dies. Zombie Larry bites Kenny, he dies. Only takes a moment.
2. In my playthrough the zombie in the back of the pickup truck had his leg chopped off, and yet it still took three guys using planks and axes to kill him and he also instakills you if you fail to keep him off you! Larry is 300 lbs, whether you believe that gives him extra strength or not it's still more weight he can bear than the one in the pickup truck when he's on top of your trying to bite your throat out, and you have no weapons this time. Salt lick? Yeah, if someone tries that while he's on top of you and they'll take out both your heads, and that's assuming they don't miss...
3. It only takes a moment. Seriously, hasn't anyone noticed how fast these zombies can kill people? Carley's death sequence is pretty much having her intestines ripped out by one zombie. Zombie Larry wakes up and rips Lily's face off before anyone has a chance to react. While Zombie Larry is held off by Lee and Kenny, Zombie Lily wakes up and makes a grab for Clementine...and before anyone says that wouldn't happen so fast, Brenda St John is turned pretty damn fast to be already be a zombie and out of the house like she is at the end...
The point I'm making is that to say that a Zombie Larry would not slaughter the whole bunch of them in that situation is to kid yourselves. The whole point is that it is a risk, an incredibly big risk that puts the entire group at risk. Kenny was doing what he felt was right, I'm not saying that it was right, on the contrary I believe he was wrong and tried to save Larry myself but the whole situation is intended to be a moral dilemna. You've really got to look at it from the viewpoints of the characters not from the omnipresent viewpoint we got: they don't know how fast people change usually or how soon a newly turned zombie can start acting at full power, they don't know that they will win because the player will just reload from the previous save, they are in danger!
As for whether Larry would have killed Duck: yes he would. It was purely the fact that people were standing up to him that stopped Duck from being hurtled out the door, despite his size no one enters into a fight with multiple people freely especially since a knife to the gut drops anyone. It seems to me that some people seem to want to elevate Larry while demonise Kenny, but the fact is that Larry would have killed Duck and his attempted murder of Lee is no better than Kenny's murder of Larry (and any attempts to justify it raises the question of why you don't try to justify it for Kenny, if you can understand why Larry wanted to kill Lee then you can understand why Kenny wanted to kill Larry). They both are looking out for their own agendas and they are both hypocritical, do you think if the situation was reversed and it was Lily that was thought of being bit that he would have demanded she get chucked out too?
I think that it would be very easy for 4 people to outmaneuver a lone zombie. Zombies aren't very smart and not capable of pulling feint attacks so as he is single mindedly going after one the other 3 could definatley overpower him safetly.
Really? The first noise I heard from the zombie pickup guy was a groan AS he attacked Katjaa, there was no prior 'activation' noise and the noise he did make was the usual zombie attack noise.
That was a look of horror, soldiers often get that look after they killed their first man, doesn't mean he thinks it's a mistake just that he's horrified at the situation, as any normal person would be.
You were not being sarcastic, you were being facetious to illustrate a point. The point you were trying to make is moot, because saying EVERYONE in EVERY SITUATION deserves a second chance is to diminish the danger of the situation you were in, not to mention that it will eventually get you killed.
And to NOT make up a hypothetical situation, we can take Larry's behavior in the drug store regarding Duck. Larry's demand to immediately get rid of Duck was absurd. He could not guarantee that Duck was bitten, and even if he WAS, he talks from a viewpoint of someone that should understand that a bitten person doesn't immediately turn into a Walker, so the process of finding the bite was putting no one in any immediate danger. That is the kind of situation in which you should give a second chance, and the potential threat should be given a benefit of the doubt.
And I DIDN'T just decide to "smack a brain" for convenience, and technically neither did Kenny. To him (and to myself), the risk was too great to attempt to resuscitate in that given situation.
When someone braver and more selfless than you tries to do good, you don't just fuck things up because it suits you better.
My Lee decided that he will risk his life to save Larry. Lilly decided she will risk her life to save Larry. It's their goddamn choice. It's their life they are putting at risk and their decision. Kenny disregarding that was the worst thing he could've done. It clearly shows how much he cares about other people's beliefs and choices.
Now, all those explanations how fast a person reanimates are bullshit. You can't know for sure how long it will take for a bitten person to reanimate or for a bitten one to die. The girl in the motor inn survived pretty damn long after being bitten. So even if Lee or Lilly was bitten, they wouldn't die right away unless they were ripped off like Shawn. That can't really happen with all those people in the room. So even if they didn't manage to kill the zombie without anyone being bitten, that person can still help to finish the zombie.
But that doesn't really matter! People should learn to respect other's choices! What Kenny did was beyond abominable. He believed his way was the right way. Well I don't agree so he can burn in hell for all I care. Kenny is the kind of guy who see things as his way and the wrong way. You disagree with him = he let's you die.
just how dangerous would a zombie Larry be?
Duck, a young kid, manages to keep from being pulled off the tractor long enough for Lee/Kenny to pull him off...these were full grown zombies vs a young kid
Duck is also able to keep a zombie on top of him from getting the fatal bite long enough for Carly to save him
Lee continues to puch, kick, and head slam them around like rag dolls
...the point here, they are NOT very strong whether they are fetus zombies or 300 lbs gorrilla zombies...
next, it took the guy in the truck plenty of time to turn...proof you ask...ok
he died, Katja called you over and yall have at least a 90 sec convo before he attacks...
so change isnt instantanious
also the pickup truck got katja by surprise because no one was exspecting the turn not because of a super zombie speed thing...and though it was a surprise Lee, who was totally unaware, was able to save her so now we are to believe that a watchfull Lee wouldnt be able to stop Larry from biting him or Lilly?
as for the weight argument...Larry was PRONE, his weight is not an advantage to him in that position...if anything it would be a hinderance to itself...
and why would he "rapid bite" everyone there when no zombie has done that...the teacher zombie attacked katja cause she was closest, once lee saved her he when after lee cause lee was there, if the zombie was all about bite, as many pple as posible he would of reached up and bit Larry while he struggled with the axe...no why the zombie didn't...cause they are fucking stupid...
so yes, three fully alive and watchful humans (and a very brite child) can overpower a stupid, slow, 300 lbs prone zombie
All fine and dandy that YOU should decide to risk your life, but you can't be mad at somebody else when they decide that you are not allowed to risk theirs.
This isn't how Kenny thinks though, if he even thinks at all.
Because I'm sure Lilly would listen to politeness. She did so often in my file. :rolleyes:
The strength of the zombies seems to be variable within the game, as well as the strength of the non-zombie characters, which seems to change with the needs of the narrative (i.e., Lee can be pulled over by the relatively small babysitter if he is not quick enough to bash her brains in, but can use his foot to smash in the head of the zombie at the drug store). So no one would really be correct in saying absolutes about the strengths of any one particular zombie.
One thing I would point out is that, unless properly planned and executed (such as when Carley, Glenn, and Doug clear the Motor Inn), almost every situation in which a Walker is encountered requires some form of assistance in order to escape, and usually some sort of weapon to damage the brain (the ONLY scene to the contrary being where Lee stomps in the head of the Walker who was attempting to get Clementine).
The change is NOT instantaneous, correct, but in Larry's situation we know that he would be considered "dead" at the moment of starting CPR (which, we would hope would restart the heart and breathing, or would be enough to get oxygen to keep his brain alive long enough to be transferred to a place where we can "shock" his heart back into activity, even then it wouldn't guarantee that is would work to keep it that way). So now we have to decide - is it possible that the virus could already be taking over? We don't know for certain when "brain" death will actually occur, so it's hard to say, but by the time you get to make the decision to help Lilly, Larry's brain may already be gone. That could mean that Larry will reanimate sooner rather than later.
Take into account what everyone's emotional state will be (Clementine will be frightened, Lilly has to deal with her Dad having just become a walker, and Kenny still is separated from his family), then Lee might just be the only level-headed person left. Even if everyone did EVERYTHING right, the possibility for injury/death is still there. And we CAN'T just avoid a zombie Larry indefinitely, like I said in another post above, especially when we don't know how aggressively it will come after us.
Basically, if you decided to try to save Larry, you're gambling with everyone's lives. Wishing you could accurately predict what would happen afterwards is just wishful thinking meant to make you feel better for taking the risk.
I read it, and I think you're wrong.
He does - he apologizes to Lilly, and tries to reason with her. Once he realizes that she's consumed with performing CPR, he attempts to reason with Lee. He already knows that Lilly is never going to willingly give up on her Dad.
When you go against his decision, he takes matters into his own hands.
Both of those choices seem geared towards murdering me/him, so no, what does this prove though? That I wouldn't respect the wishes of a man who wished to murder me? Because that is not in any way the same as what Lee wished.
The wish of Lilly and Lee was that the could have a chance at reviving Lilly's father with CPR as there was still a chance. There was obviously risks involved but they were risks worth taking to save a member of the group. It was the same with Lee (and Carly the 2nd time) saving Duck (and Lee saving Katjaa from the zombie, and again from the crazy wifey pointing a pistol at you on the stairs), there were huge risks involved and both put their lives in danger to save Kenny's son. So what do we do in the future when the little idiot gets himself grabbed by a zombie horde again? Do we just leave him to die and accept the loss of 1 member as it's better than the potential loss of more? Because that's what Kenny did, he didn't care about the loss of Larry because he didn't like the man (and most importantly he wasn't a member of his immediate family), he also didn't get along with Lilly, so why should he put his life at risk for those people? That's how Kenny sees it.
Kinky John Fowler, that's absolutely true. That's how Kenny thinks and acts.
OMG, are we agreeing on something?
Somebody better make sure the space-time continuum is in tact!:D
If the situation was reversed and it was Lee and Clem being held hostage I have no doubts that that is exactly what Kenny would do.
Only because they're not fleshed out. The basic concept is the same - would you respect someone's choice, if it risked your life, regardless of what their intention may be?
Choosing to risk your own life is often thought of as a "no-brainer" decision - when asked if we WOULD, most of us unanimously say "Yes". I think the practice of the concept would destroy most people's concept of the depth of their heroics. (As, don't judge Kenny until you've walked a mile in his shoes).
This is because he has you under his grotesque thumb, you are Kenny's bitch and he'll use you untill you finally click. I was the same but I saw the error of my ways and now i'm free the air is much clearer.
Also Larry wasn't 'dead' he'd had a heart attack but there was no evidence that he had died (and infact it is impractical that he would have actually died that soon), Lee also didn't know if Katjaa was still alive when he approached the house. But in anycase the fact still remains, Kenny is happy for everyone to run about putting themselves in huge danger saving his family but he isn't willing to do the same in return.
I guess you didn't read what I put after that. It's easy to say "yes". It's harder to actually do it.
Another "morally grey question" - would you risk the life of other people for the choice that you make? This is a question very well suited to this situation, because you have to factor in that, if you made the WRONG decision, you have not put only yourself in danger, but everyone else in that room with you.
It starts at the time she asks about Ben, immediately after that there's a fairly unsubtle creaking from the truck bed as he starts moving, then he grabs Katjaa. Granted, we're not talking about a lot of advance warning, but in both cases there's atleast a couple seconds that tells you something bad is about to happen.
And again, yes, 'I would risk other peoples lives' in an effort to save another, I would expect everyone at the scene to chip in and do the same too however, and not have some daft upstart go against everyones wishes to cut the rope at the first oppotunity and claim to be the real hero.
you mean the way Kenny put us all in danger in that room by acting without thinking that Lilly may actually snap and try to kill everyone...or when he put everyone in danger by attracting a cities worth of zombies by yelling like a fool...how he (not only endagered) but directly contributed to Shawns death by running away, how he endagered me by not helping with Danny, how he endangers the whole group by fixing an RV instead of the wall...
He "may" have his heart in the right place in reguards to HIS family...he "may" not be a PEICE of BETRAYING SHIT...but he IS a liability no matter what his intentions, more so than even Duck and he is borderline Forrest Gump...Kenny is slow to help, unable to be resoned with, and a coward...any disaggreements on this
I'd much prefer my chances taking down Lilly, over a dude that bites me once and I die no matter what.
And at that point, everyone is a liability to you. So abandon everyone, including Clementine, and try to make it on your own. After all, you can't guarantee one hundred percent that everyone would always do the safe thing, right?
You forgot "Because he has a rockin' mullet that most Lions would be proud of"
nope...sure cant, but carly always seems to be there in a crises, not so much Kenny...Doug even helps more than he hinders, not so much Kenny...in fact Clementine has done more for the group then the who Kenny family combined...I strongly believe, just from what I have seen in this game, that Lilly, Carly/Doug, Lee and Clem can survive more efficiantly and for longer than Kenny, his Brood, and Ben if he chooses to go with them...
Do you honestly belive that it would be best for Lee and Clem to depend on Kenny and fam...?
About as much as I believe Kenny and his family could rely upon Lee and Clementine. You get out what you put in, as the old saying goes.
It's kinda funny, but thinking on it, Duck actually kinda looks like a young Forrest Gump too...
But yeah, Kenny's not the guy you want to be with in a crisis. It's not even a matter of his track record being "iffy", it's downright horrible. If the chips are down and it's a choice between doing what's best for the group or what he thinks is best for his family, the group'll lose everytime - not that I necessarily blame him for that, except for the fact the chips are going to be down far more with Kenny (e.g. the aforementioned incident with attracting a horde of walkers).
At the end of the day, the fact remains that Kenny's the first member of the group to kill another member, and advocated taking the Dairy by force, even when the family was apparently friendly (and offering to feed the group no less). Then immediately upon entering the bloody room in the barn after escaping from the meat locker, he puts the group at risk by sitting there and talking to himself.
The rest of the group so far havn't put anyone in danger through their own idiotic or selfish actions, so there would be no reason to abandon them. You would also be in even bigger danger 'going it alone', you need a group to maximise your odds of survival, you just need everyone in that group to have a backbone and a modicum of common sense.
Kenny's sole contribution so far has been to drop me of at Macon, if only that was where we said our goodbyes.
If those places had residents that were welcoming and friendly to the group, I wouldn't agree with trying to take them by force either. Family or no. Lee's quite right when he tells Mark "we need to make these people like us" (granted that turned out to be moot, but it's not like the group knew it at the time).
While most people like to quote Machiavelli in a situation like this, they tend to forget that the whole "it's better to be feared than loved" line was written as satire - due to the simple fact that people who love you do so even while you're sleeping.