I am going to put my reasons here for support Kenny that I've already put in another thread:
He is selfish and a bit useless when the situation requires acting but yes, he's a rational person.
He's not perfect like Lilly,Larry and the others. (Well Carley/Doug looks likea well-balanced persons but they don't make critical decisions about survival, just follow orders)
And yes, I feel like the meat locker scene it's crucial for absolutely siding with Kenny or not. In the meat locker I sided with Kenny and he saved me from Danny BUT if you help Lilly he won't save you and start speak in a bit rudely manners with you.
I mean, looking Kenny's attitude in the two "timelines" (Great Scott!!) looks like that you are going to hate him more or you are going to support him even more.
Put yourself in Kenny's shoes. He saves your life at the drugstore because you have proven yourself to be an asset to their group, even without being loyal to him. When you choose to delay killing Larry (for some ill-perceived notion of maintaining strict morals), in his eyes, you are needlessly putting them all in danger. Why should he stick his neck out for someone who might end up getting him or his family killed?
I don't think he killed Larry out of vengeance. This is why he smashes his head in, despite you making it clear that you won't back him up. He really feels that he is doing what is necessary to survive. He doesn't even sugarcoat it - walking back to motel, he flat out says that "we" killed Larry (I don't know if he talks to you or not if you side with Lily).
Lily, on the other hand, is a spiteful witch. She stood there, with Clementine watching, and was going to let me die in front of everyone. Granted, I had just held her back while Kenny killed her father, but this is the same woman who didn't even want to help out my group that had two children in it in the first place. I think her loyalty is more questionable than Kenny's will ever be.
Actually, this is only partially true. After Kenny killed Larry, and if you didn't, during the walk back, there's a conversation option that leads to Kenny admitting he killed Larry because he was worried that Larry would get Katjaa and Duck killed.
@ Sisterofshane
So it is ok to kill a member of the group , if they are a threat to other members? If that is true then (pardon my blunt way of putting this) please go ahead and kill Lilly, Duck, and Kenny. All three are now a danger to the group. Lilly is for the sole reason she now has a reason to just snap. Duck is for the reason he is just stupid. Kenny is for the sole reason he is now a killer. If you killed Larry then guess what? You are now the threat. Kenny (or you) can not be trusted by the rest of the group. "He has killed one of us. Who is next?" If you would be so kind as to do me a favor, if the world does have a problem like this, stay away from Texas. I do not want to run the risk of you being in my group. Please understand I do not mean any disrespect. If you saved Duck from being throwen out in ep. 1 but helped kill Larry then enjoy the hypocrisy.
Any one else see a lot of Rick from the comics in Kenny? I've been rereading some of them for the past few days at work and they share a lot of similarities (not necessarily a good thing)
@ Sisterofshane
So it is ok to kill a member of the group , if they are a threat to other members? If that is true then (pardon my blunt way of putting this) please go ahead and kill Lilly, Duck, and Kenny. All three are now a danger to the group. Lilly is for the sole reason she now has a reason to just snap. Duck is for the reason he is just stupid. Kenny is for the sole reason he is now a killer. If you killed Larry then guess what? You are now the threat. Kenny (or you) can not be trusted by the rest of the group. "He has killed one of us. Who is next?" If you would be so kind as to do me a favor, if the world does have a problem like this, stay away from Texas. I do not want to run the risk of you being in my group. Please understand I do not mean any disrespect. If you saved Duck from being throwen out in ep. 1 but helped kill Larry then enjoy the hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy? You're from Texas, they're all about the death penetly. :rolleyes:
Larry has an Attempted Murder under his belt. Kenny's the only one who came back for you, so it's only fair I gave him the honor of smashing the old coward's brains in. I'd say my retribution was swift and just under the American judicial system. I just had to find the right time to enact my justice.
Hypocrisy? You're from Texas, they're all about the death penetly. :rolleyes:
Larry has an Attempted Murder under his belt. Kenny's the only one who came back for you, so it's only fair I gave him the honor of smashing the old coward's brains in. I'd say my retribution was swift and just under the American judicial system. I just had to find the right time to enact my justice.
Yes we put people to death AFTER THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY. We dont just go around and go "Ok you don't agree with us we shall put you to death." So you say it is justice, but you dont agree with putting people to death? Correct me if i am wrong you just put Larry to death but you are against putting people to death. Hypocrisy?
Yes we put people to death AFTER THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY. We dont just go around and go "Ok you don't agree with us we shall put you to death." So you say it is justice, but you dont agree with putting people to death? Correct me if i am wrong you just put Larry to death but you are against putting people to death. Hypocrisy?
I think you missed the part in my reply where I said HE TRIED TO KILL ME. He deserved more than the salt lick.
It's not that he wanted to kill you, he just didn't want you around his daughter. It's not exactly the same. Plus he knows that you are a criminal, and Kenny doesn't.
It's not that he wanted to kill you, he just didn't want you around his daughter. It's not exactly the same. Plus he knows that you are a criminal, and Kenny doesn't.
That brings up a good point. I wonder how good buddy old pal Kenny will react when he finds out you were convicted of murder. Will he see you as a threat to his brood or will he see you as the same Lee that is his friend.
This isn't about if you are pro death penalty, or if you believe in a womans right to choose...this isn't about second chances or what counts as murder...this is about survival and not just emmediat survival from the st.johns. You need the group...
It can be argued that Kenny's actions in the meat locker MAY have saved an extra person. I think the odds of Larry living was 50%, a zombie Larry biting someone, les than 10%. IMO the odds of 2 people dying while trying to revive Larry was worth trying to save him.
Now Kennt's actions resulted in Larry dying 100%. Plus causing Lilly to become inefficiant 100%. Lee's trust in Kenny has decreases 100% (In my playthrough). Kenny runs off not thinking and gets shot making him more worthless than he already was leaves Lee with what...only carly and clem.
I am sure the next episode will show the total fallout of Kenny's action while at the same time EVERYONE will see Kenny do even more damage to the group.
@sisterofshane Kenny and fam would benifit alot more from Lee and Clem then Lee and Clem would benifit from Kenny and fam...all the evidence points to this so you have left the realm of rational debate and entered the "talking out your ass" colony.
It's not that he wanted to kill you, he just didn't want you around his daughter. It's not exactly the same. Plus he knows that you are a criminal, and Kenny doesn't.
Funny, I thought making sure someone got trapped in a room full of Walkers was sort of a red flag on a guy trying to kill you. It's exactly the same thing.
It's really weird seeing the forums trying to put Larry up to almost messianic proportions. He was a rage spewing, hateful coward, and by God, he died like one.
I just wish I could explain to Lilly why I had to put him down like the disease ridden pig he truly was, or at least tell her that her dad tried to kill me. That would have been a fun conversation to watch.
It's really weird seeing the forums trying to put Larry up to almost messianic proportions. He was a rage spewing, hateful coward, and by God, he died like one.
But he had charm coming out of his ass!
The old git was really growing on me in episode 2. Remember we only met him halfway through episode 1 and he was incapacitated for most of that. He can be quite endearing when he's not trying to brutally murder children...
Funny, I thought making sure someone got trapped in a room full of Walkers was sort of a red flag on a guy trying to kill you. It's exactly the same thing.
It's really weird seeing the forums trying to put Larry up to almost messianic proportions. He was a rage spewing, hateful coward, and by God, he died like one.
I just wish I could explain to Lilly why I had to put him down like the disease ridden pig he truly was, or at least tell her that her dad tried to kill me. That would have been a fun conversation to watch.
once again...I didn't start this thread because Kenny killed Larry...I started it because Kenny is a coward and betrayed me in a critical moment...all the extra cons against Kenny just came with research...point after point has been made for him being a hinderance to the group yet none of you Kenny supporters can offer anything that shows he is an asset...why is that I wonder
I guess I missed the part where Larry tried to smash Duck's head in. Larry said we need to throw him out and we need to do it now. Do you really think Lee and Kenny could take down Larry and Lilly in a fight? If a knife was pulled out you could bet Carly would have put a bullet in the one with the knife. Remember she was with that group first.
It can be argued that Kenny's actions in the meat locker MAY have saved an extra person. I think the odds of Larry living was 50%, a zombie Larry biting someone, les than 10%. IMO the odds of 2 people dying while trying to revive Larry was worth trying to save him.
I love the statistics... you've just made up.
What if Larry would return as a zombie suddenly like the police officer at the beginning of Episode 1? Stopping a zombie with Larry's size it would be quite hard.
I hated Larry but I didn't like make that thing to him. It was a hard choice but I think the survival it's more important so I helped to Kenny.
What if Larry would return as a zombie suddenly like the police officer at the beginning of Episode 1? Stopping a zombie with Larry's size it would be quite hard.
In a confined space with no weapons? Kenny and Lee wouldn't stand a chance. The only advantage they had at that moment was a heavy object and gravity. If a zombified Larry got up, it would be almost impossible to restrain him with one person long enough for the other to drop the object on his head. Lilly probably wouldn't help either.
This is part of what makes the Walking Dead so great. A lot of players think the decisions are clear cut, and the other option would never occur to anyone, then they find out otherwise and are all "whaaaaat?!"
In a confined space with no weapons? Kenny and Lee wouldn't stand a chance. The only advantage they had at that moment was a heavy object and gravity. If a zombified Larry got up, it would be almost impossible to restrain him with one person long enough for the other to drop the object on his head. Lilly probably wouldn't help either.
This is part of what makes the Walking Dead so great. A lot of players think the decisions are clear cut, and the other option would never occur to anyone, then they find out otherwise and are all "whaaaaat?!"
Just stop him before he does. He won't just jump to his feet.I see why people think their decisions are correct. The point of this thread is....
Deadk1ng "once again...I didn't start this thread because Kenny killed Larry...I started it because Kenny is a coward and betrayed me in a critical moment...all the extra cons against Kenny just came with research...point after point has been made for him being a hinderance to the group yet none of you Kenny supporters can offer anything that shows he is an asset...why is that I wonder "
It's already been discussed, but the group could have made an effort ot restrain him whilst performing CPR. There were 3 grown adults in the room.
But yeah, like deadk1ng has said there really hasn't been any evidence that supports Kenny, just arguments against the fact he's a coward and an idiot. That is pretty telling.
In a confined space with no weapons? Kenny and Lee wouldn't stand a chance. The only advantage they had at that moment was a heavy object and gravity. If a zombified Larry got up, it would be almost impossible to restrain him with one person long enough for the other to drop the object on his head. Lilly probably wouldn't help either.
This is part of what makes the Walking Dead so great. A lot of players think the decisions are clear cut, and the other option would never occur to anyone, then they find out otherwise and are all "whaaaaat?!"
Exactly.
Recently I played again and I helped to Lilly. I see the point of all the Kenny haters now. Kenny stands behind and doesn't help to Lee with Danny and more things. So this gameplay makes all the Kenny haters... more haters.
That didn't happen in my gameplay. Kenny helped me with Danny and I see that I can trust on him. Also, I see his point at the meat locker and I'm agree with him.
The forum community it's splitted up now! Telltale have done an awesome job!
If he did it once, he will do it again! Both different versions come from the same person. It doesn't matter if he didn't betray you in your playthrough. The fact that his pointless betrayal is one possible future shows what an asshole he is. The only difference is that my Lee knows who Kenny truly is, while yours is still in the dark, believing that Kenny is an ally. He might be, while you are his bitch, but after that...
There's something you could try. You could be mean to Lilly, the rudest you can be throughout the entire episode 1 & 2 and only side with her in the meat locker. Then you can tell us if she forgave you and helped you or she still held a grudge against you. I haven't tried this so I'll be happy if someone tries it
If he did it once, he will do it again! Both different versions come from the same person. It doesn't matter if he didn't betray you in your playthrough. The fact that his pointless betrayal is one possible future shows what an asshole he is. The only difference is that my Lee knows who Kenny truly is, while yours is still in the dark, believing that Kenny is an ally. He might be, while you are his bitch, but after that...
There's something you could try. You could be mean to Lilly, the rudest you can be throughout the entire episode 1 & 2 and only side with her in the meat locker. Then you can tell us if she forgave you and helped you or she still held a grudge against you. I haven't tried this so I'll be happy if someone tries it
Well, when that moment reaches then I'll discuss with Kenny when I wasn't agree with him and let's see.
I support Kenny not because of his boat or whatever... I think he's right at most things. This is about surviving and not about making friends.
In regards to Kenny's character, we of course are going to draw conclusions based on what we were shown in our specific playthroughs. The mere possibility of something happening does not prove or disprove the traits of a person. At anyone time there are thousands of possibilities for how someone may or may not respond, and it is based on more than just a persons "character" (there are always determining outside factors that need to be considered).
Basically, each of us is going to see what we want, based upon how OUR decisions played out. So, go ahead and call Kenny a coward and an idiot - in your playthrough, that assessment may be totally correct.
But to me, I have a Kenny who may be brash, but is a loyal friend. I can only judge Kenny by his actions, not by the possibility of him behaving differently in what is essentially, a different "dimension".
sisterofshane, it really doesn't surprise me that you empathize so heavily with kenny. i figure shane was a misunderstood kindred soul to you as well, right?
sisterofshane, it really doesn't surprise me that you empathize so heavily with kenny. i figure shane was a misunderstood kindred soul to you as well, right?
Haven't read the comics, and I don't watch the show.
From what I glean here on the forums, I can empathize with his ruthlessness, even though it doesn't make him more right than anyone else.
ok here how it goes you meet kenny wow kenny is awesome he run away with duck if or if you didn't help duck dude kenny sucks kenny gives you a ride to macon and gives you a hand when larry punches you in the face wow kenny is my best friend kenny get mad at motor inn and talk to you with an attitude dude kenny sucks...and so on sometimes i don't get kenny...
ok here how it goes you meet kenny wow kenny is awesome he run away with duck if or if you didn't help duck dude kenny sucks kenny gives you a ride to macon and gives you a hand when larry punches you in the face wow kenny is my best friend kenny get mad at motor inn and talk to you with an attitude dude kenny sucks...and so on sometimes i don't get kenny...
Say hello to "choices" and non-linearity. It's really hard to write consistent characters and ALSO give people consequences and opportunity to form a ranging variety of relationships WITH said characters. Almost always you are going to end up with one example or another of a character that acts out of turn.
One glaring example to me is when Lilly becomes the voice to not take the food. This is the same woman who that very morning scolded me for rescuing a kid from the Walkers for LACK of food. She certainly never showed that she cared if anyone other than the original group lived or died before - why does she suddenly start now?
Haven't read the comics, and I don't watch the show.
From what I glean here on the forums, I can empathize with his ruthlessness, even though it doesn't make him more right than anyone else.
I too have never read the comic's nor will I until the end of the TV show (which I have watched and am hooked on.. currently watching the Walking Dead weekend seasons 1,2 on AMC) And I wont look at the comic's til the end of EP5 game.
I understand Shane's ruthleness, and to a degree I even agree with him about 75% of the time because I share his sence of survival.
Where I think Shane goes wrong, is because before Rick found his family, Shane was the leader of the group and had Ricks wife and sone to look after.. When Rick arrived, Shane lost all that. I think that took it's toll on Shane.
Not only has the world gone to hell and Shane has lost everything he ever had, but now lost control of the group, lost Lori and Carl. I see myself playing Lee very much more like Shane than Rick.
Now I concider Kenny to be in a similar position, He still has his wife and son and is doing anything he feel's he has to, to keep them safe. It's a crazy world and you just cant sit there and decide how you are going to handle every situation when you have no Idea what's coming next.
Kenny is unpredictable at times, I get that, but I get why and I can't fault him for that. Part of my reasoning is indeed the boat, but look how fast thing's can change. Today Kenny may act like an ass, but in EP3, Lee could save his life and have Kenny's loyalty and friendship.
Don't be too quick to judge just yet.. we're only at 2 of 5 and there's much more to come.
Now as I say that I think of how it was me (Lee) who smashed Larry's head with the salt lick. Not just to stay on Kenny's side, but because Larry tried to kill Lee.. That punch in the drug store was meant to leave Lee for the walkers.
After Lee risked his own like to get the key to the pharmacy to save Larry.
I wasnt about to give Larry a second chance!
I too have never read the comic's nor will I until the end of the TV show (which I have watched and am hooked on.. currently watching the Walking Dead weekend seasons 1,2 on AMC) And I wont look at the comic's til the end of EP5 game.
Oh dude you are in for a treat, the comics are amazing and brutal
Well, when that moment reaches then I'll discuss with Kenny when I wasn't agree with him and let's see.
I support Kenny not because of his boat or whatever... I think he's right at most things. This is about surviving and not about making friends.
The thing is, you do typically survive by making friends. To reiterate, people who like/love you do so even while you're sleeping. A person that likes you is more likely to trust and go out of their way for you (indeed, the game tends to show us as much).
Basically, each of us is going to see what we want, based upon how OUR decisions played out. So, go ahead and call Kenny a coward and an idiot - in your playthrough, that assessment may be totally correct.
But to me, I have a Kenny who may be brash, but is a loyal friend. I can only judge Kenny by his actions, not by the possibility of him behaving differently in what is essentially, a different "dimension".
The problem with that assessment is that he does stupid/cowardly things on any playthrough, regardless of Lee's decision: abandoning Shawn after Duck was clear from the tractor? Check (hell, he even admits that one). Attracting a horde of Walkers in Macon? Check. Working on things that won't/can't benefit the group as a whole like the RV so he can try to reach his boat? Check. Potentially antagonizing people like the St. John brothers at a time they were apparently friendly and willing to help the group? Check. Potentially alerting the St. John's family (when it was clear they were no longer so friendly) to the fact you had just escaped and at a time the group was still unarmed? Check.
These are all things that occur no matter your decisions, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I wouldn't expect somebody to have a perfect record (particularly without survival experience or training), but that record is downright abysmal. The majority of things on that list all have/had the potential to screw over the group as a whole, if not just plain get them killed.
As the old adage goes, "survival is 90% mental, 10% physical", and it's very true. The guy who's brash, charging off, not thinking things through, etc. is the one that's more likely to get you killed in pretty much any survival situation.
The thing is, you do typically survive by making friends. To reiterate, people who like/love you do so even while you're sleeping. A person that likes you is more likely to trust and go out of their way for you (indeed, the game tends to show us as much).
The problem with that assessment is that he does stupid/cowardly things on any playthrough, regardless of Lee's decision: abandoning Shawn after Duck was clear from the tractor? Check (hell, he even admits that one). Attracting a horde of Walkers in Macon? Check. Working on things that won't/can't benefit the group as a whole like the RV so he can try to reach his boat? Check. Potentially antagonizing people like the St. John brothers at a time they were apparently friendly and willing to help the group? Check. Potentially alerting the St. John's family (when it was clear they were no longer so friendly) to the fact you had just escaped and at a time the group was still unarmed? Check.
These are all things that occur no matter your decisions, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I wouldn't expect somebody to have a perfect record (particularly without survival experience or training), but that record is downright abysmal. The majority of things on that list all have/had the potential to screw over the group as a whole, if not just plain get them killed.
As the old adage goes, "survival is 90% mental, 10% physical", and it's very true. The guy who's brash, charging off, not thinking things through, etc. is the one that's more likely to get you killed in pretty much any survival situation.
Way to leave out everything he does right just because it doesn't suit your argument.
He gives Lee and Clem a ride to Macon, despite having no obligation to do so. He assigns people on jobs in the drug store (all of which make sense). He comes back to help Lee in the drug store (risking his life to save yours REGARDLESS of whether or not you have had his back). He is the first to suggest making the motor inn more defensible, and try to "wait out" the crisis (a plan with which Lilly agrees with). He watches Lee's back as he tries to free the teacher, but ultimately is the one who makes the executive decision to leave him there when it gets to dangerous to stay. Both he AND Lilly were mistrusting of the St. John's (and rightfully so), but he is not actively hostile towards them, and had it been his way, he would have been the first to find out that they were butchering people (he was the one who had the idea to search the "back room" in the first place, and probably would have done so himself if Lee were not there).
Just proves my point though, that people are going to see what they want.
wow...people are assuming that a zombie Larry would be a zombie powerhouse that is able to sneak attack despite being instead of a slow moving, severely weakend zombie with bad coordination that doesn't have the element of surprise...)
Like the victim at the start of ep2? Ya he was real easy to get off.
He just turned and pins you in a matter of seconds...now imagine that being a foot taller and 150lbs heavier.
The babysitter in Clems house; lil highschool girl; gets the jump on you 2x before Clem has to hand that hammer over.
And Im sure the shock of seeing someone who was just dead arise would help calm your nerves for the wrestling match about to begin?
I didnt see any katanas or chisels or sledgepicks in that room: I'd love to know what the plan would have been- put him in a headlock?
He assigns people on jobs in the drug store (all of which make sense).
Which I found really strange and power-hungry since:
1- It wasnt his holdout
2-He was the one who put his AND their group in danger
3- He doesnt know these people and they just saved his life-why did/would they just fall in line with this stranger?
He watches Lee's back as he tries to free the teacher, but ultimately is the one who makes the executive decision to leave him there when it gets to dangerous to stay.
Yes he mentions something about wasting ammo and is of course the 1st to suggest bailing. In honesty though, these were strangers and even *I* didnt want to help them, really.
Both he AND Lilly were mistrusting of the St. John's (and rightfully so), but he is not actively hostile towards them, and had it been his way, he would have been the first to find out that they were butchering people (he was the one who had the idea to search the "back room" in the first place, and probably would have done so himself if Lee were not there).
Wasnt he also the same one who hinted at overthrowing the rightful owners of the farm if they wouldnt let them stay on? This is when everyone thought they were just honest farm folk- ya he's a class act, that Kenny
Way to leave out everything he does right just because it doesn't suit your argument.
He gives Lee and Clem a ride to Macon, despite having no obligation to do so. He assigns people on jobs in the drug store (all of which make sense). He comes back to help Lee in the drug store (risking his life to save yours REGARDLESS of whether or not you have had his back). He is the first to suggest making the motor inn more defensible, and try to "wait out" the crisis (a plan with which Lilly agrees with). He watches Lee's back as he tries to free the teacher, but ultimately is the one who makes the executive decision to leave him there when it gets to dangerous to stay. Both he AND Lilly were mistrusting of the St. John's (and rightfully so), but he is not actively hostile towards them, and had it been his way, he would have been the first to find out that they were butchering people (he was the one who had the idea to search the "back room" in the first place, and probably would have done so himself if Lee were not there).
Just proves my point though, that people are going to see what they want.
Your assertion was that Kenny's cowardice/stupidity were dependant on playthrough, which isn't true.
Despite that, most of the things you listed were outside of crisis situations, so it's not like you can form an opinion on whether he's a coward or not. Even then, for things like the ride to Macon, he was heading there anyway. He also wasn't at that much risk in the drug store when he comes back for Lee, he has Lee's weapon, and the only Walker that was in range to attack was both prone and focused on Lee, the rest were still atleast halfway across the store.
Things like watching my back when we're away from camp while I'm helping someone else (especially since Kenny was the first one to suggest the group would help) is expected, it's hardly going above and beyond the call of duty. You don't get a bonus for doing things you're supposed to.
And yeah, he was potentially hostile to the St. John's family at the time they were apparently friendly and offering aid. He suggested taking the dairy by force, I'd consider that hostile - hell, he didn't even consider the risk of casualties to the group as part of that plan in the event the family decided to do something nutty like defend their livelihood.
Kenny didn't know what was on the other side of the door in the barn. The back room of the barn also didn't explicitly show the family was eating people since there weren't any identifiable remains in the room. The only real proof that the family was eating people was Mark, inside the house. If we want to judge this on "after the fact" rationale, Kenny's plan actually delayed that discovery because the time Lee spent on the door could've been spent in the house finding Mark.
Despite all that, at the end of the day, Kenny's actions have/had the easily forseeable potential of getting a group of over half a dozen people killed or screwed over several times. I never claimed his record was 100% bad (as the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day), but the bad definitely outweighs the good.
That because he wants Lee along to protect his family; he says it before leaving the farm
Which I found really strange and power-hungry since:
1- It wasnt his holdout
2-He was the one who put his AND their group in danger
3- He doesnt know these people and they just saved his life-why did/would they just fall in line with this stranger?
And calls you an a-hole for not agreeing with him. Either case, same reason he offers the ride: Free bodyguard
Yes he mentions something about wasting ammo and is of course the 1st to suggest bailing. In honesty though, these were strangers and even *I* didnt want to help them, really.
Wasnt he also the same one who hinted at overthrowing the rightful owners of the farm if they wouldnt let them stay on? This is when everyone thought they were just honest farm folk- ya he's a class act, that Kenny
(Ugh, I had a really long post, only to have it eaten up after pushing the submit button. Rule to the wise, highlight and copy your long posts first, then click submit:mad:. Okay, take two...)
Making up false, malicious intentions does not make the actions themselves necessarily wrong.
Number one, the old adage "Safety in Numbers" always rings true. This would mean that OF COURSE it was to Kenny's benefit to invite Lee to ride with him. It's not malicious to want the help of an extra adult, it's just pure common sense. This motivation makes no sense though at the Drug Store, when he has to risk his life to save Lee from the walkers. He has plenty of other adults outside ready to go - he doesn't really need Lee to help him anymore. The bodyguard theory can go completely bunk here as well, because Lee could have possibly shown Kenny not once, but TWICE by this time that he won't help his family. So really, in the Lee/Kenny relationship, Kenny provides the proverbial olive branch, showing that he is willing to risk HIS life to save Lee's.
I don't think it is strange for Kenny to apply a few leadership skills in the Drug store, either. The group was torn even before we showed up (Carley and Glenn showing that they didn't necessarily agree with Lilly's leadership style). Lilly then becomes consumed with her father's well being. Kenny steps up, and gives everybody something to focus on (other than the rambling horde of Zombies threatening them outside). If it had been me, I would have done the same thing.
As for saving the group in the woods, one thing I think that everyone has to understand is that, while you get to make some decisions, ultimately Lee is a character that you are role playing, thus there is going to be some railroading of the plot that you might not agree with (for example, automatically agreeing with Glenn to save the woman in the motel). Lee, Mark, and Kenny decide to try to help the teacher, and Kenny is the one to cover you while you take the time to try to free him. He is the one paying attention to the Walker's closing in on you - therefore it is his call about when it is "safe" to leave, and frankly, he's right.
And I can agree that talking about "taking the farm by force" is the perfect example of how he doesn't think things through, but it's hardly like he came in shooting his rifle at the St. John's. He minded his actions and avoided being outwardly hostile towards the family, but is still talking to Lee about scoping things out, and rightfully so. The only other person to truly share his skepticism is Lilly, and her only plan is just to leave (which would have been problematic when the group attempted to retrieve Mark and they couldn't).
@Rommel49, you misinterpreted my stance. I said that the judgement of his character is dependent upon your choices, not that his character is primarily revealed through your choices. Case in point was how you only brought up those examples that proved your point, instead of examining the entirety of his actions to come up with a character judgement.
And I have said before, the man is brash, and prone to panic. I don't see him as being primarily a bad man, however, due to my specific interactions with him.
Comments
He is selfish and a bit useless when the situation requires acting but yes, he's a rational person.
He's not perfect like Lilly,Larry and the others. (Well Carley/Doug looks likea well-balanced persons but they don't make critical decisions about survival, just follow orders)
And yes, I feel like the meat locker scene it's crucial for absolutely siding with Kenny or not. In the meat locker I sided with Kenny and he saved me from Danny BUT if you help Lilly he won't save you and start speak in a bit rudely manners with you.
I mean, looking Kenny's attitude in the two "timelines" (Great Scott!!) looks like that you are going to hate him more or you are going to support him even more.
So it is ok to kill a member of the group , if they are a threat to other members? If that is true then (pardon my blunt way of putting this) please go ahead and kill Lilly, Duck, and Kenny. All three are now a danger to the group. Lilly is for the sole reason she now has a reason to just snap. Duck is for the reason he is just stupid. Kenny is for the sole reason he is now a killer. If you killed Larry then guess what? You are now the threat. Kenny (or you) can not be trusted by the rest of the group. "He has killed one of us. Who is next?" If you would be so kind as to do me a favor, if the world does have a problem like this, stay away from Texas. I do not want to run the risk of you being in my group. Please understand I do not mean any disrespect. If you saved Duck from being throwen out in ep. 1 but helped kill Larry then enjoy the hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy? You're from Texas, they're all about the death penetly. :rolleyes:
Larry has an Attempted Murder under his belt. Kenny's the only one who came back for you, so it's only fair I gave him the honor of smashing the old coward's brains in. I'd say my retribution was swift and just under the American judicial system. I just had to find the right time to enact my justice.
Yes we put people to death AFTER THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY. We dont just go around and go "Ok you don't agree with us we shall put you to death." So you say it is justice, but you dont agree with putting people to death? Correct me if i am wrong you just put Larry to death but you are against putting people to death. Hypocrisy?
I think you missed the part in my reply where I said HE TRIED TO KILL ME. He deserved more than the salt lick.
Nope i understand that part. Attempted murder vs Murder. An eye for an eye will leave the world blind or so they say.
That brings up a good point. I wonder how good buddy old pal Kenny will react when he finds out you were convicted of murder. Will he see you as a threat to his brood or will he see you as the same Lee that is his friend.
It can be argued that Kenny's actions in the meat locker MAY have saved an extra person. I think the odds of Larry living was 50%, a zombie Larry biting someone, les than 10%. IMO the odds of 2 people dying while trying to revive Larry was worth trying to save him.
Now Kennt's actions resulted in Larry dying 100%. Plus causing Lilly to become inefficiant 100%. Lee's trust in Kenny has decreases 100% (In my playthrough). Kenny runs off not thinking and gets shot making him more worthless than he already was leaves Lee with what...only carly and clem.
I am sure the next episode will show the total fallout of Kenny's action while at the same time EVERYONE will see Kenny do even more damage to the group.
@sisterofshane Kenny and fam would benifit alot more from Lee and Clem then Lee and Clem would benifit from Kenny and fam...all the evidence points to this so you have left the realm of rational debate and entered the "talking out your ass" colony.
Funny, I thought making sure someone got trapped in a room full of Walkers was sort of a red flag on a guy trying to kill you. It's exactly the same thing.
It's really weird seeing the forums trying to put Larry up to almost messianic proportions. He was a rage spewing, hateful coward, and by God, he died like one.
I just wish I could explain to Lilly why I had to put him down like the disease ridden pig he truly was, or at least tell her that her dad tried to kill me. That would have been a fun conversation to watch.
But he had charm coming out of his ass!
The old git was really growing on me in episode 2. Remember we only met him halfway through episode 1 and he was incapacitated for most of that. He can be quite endearing when he's not trying to brutally murder children...
once again...I didn't start this thread because Kenny killed Larry...I started it because Kenny is a coward and betrayed me in a critical moment...all the extra cons against Kenny just came with research...point after point has been made for him being a hinderance to the group yet none of you Kenny supporters can offer anything that shows he is an asset...why is that I wonder
I love the statistics... you've just made up.
What if Larry would return as a zombie suddenly like the police officer at the beginning of Episode 1? Stopping a zombie with Larry's size it would be quite hard.
I hated Larry but I didn't like make that thing to him. It was a hard choice but I think the survival it's more important so I helped to Kenny.
In a confined space with no weapons? Kenny and Lee wouldn't stand a chance. The only advantage they had at that moment was a heavy object and gravity. If a zombified Larry got up, it would be almost impossible to restrain him with one person long enough for the other to drop the object on his head. Lilly probably wouldn't help either.
This is part of what makes the Walking Dead so great. A lot of players think the decisions are clear cut, and the other option would never occur to anyone, then they find out otherwise and are all "whaaaaat?!"
Just stop him before he does. He won't just jump to his feet.I see why people think their decisions are correct. The point of this thread is....
Deadk1ng "once again...I didn't start this thread because Kenny killed Larry...I started it because Kenny is a coward and betrayed me in a critical moment...all the extra cons against Kenny just came with research...point after point has been made for him being a hinderance to the group yet none of you Kenny supporters can offer anything that shows he is an asset...why is that I wonder "
But yeah, like deadk1ng has said there really hasn't been any evidence that supports Kenny, just arguments against the fact he's a coward and an idiot. That is pretty telling.
Exactly.
Recently I played again and I helped to Lilly. I see the point of all the Kenny haters now. Kenny stands behind and doesn't help to Lee with Danny and more things. So this gameplay makes all the Kenny haters... more haters.
That didn't happen in my gameplay. Kenny helped me with Danny and I see that I can trust on him. Also, I see his point at the meat locker and I'm agree with him.
The forum community it's splitted up now! Telltale have done an awesome job!
I could not agree more.
There's something you could try. You could be mean to Lilly, the rudest you can be throughout the entire episode 1 & 2 and only side with her in the meat locker. Then you can tell us if she forgave you and helped you or she still held a grudge against you. I haven't tried this so I'll be happy if someone tries it
Well, when that moment reaches then I'll discuss with Kenny when I wasn't agree with him and let's see.
I support Kenny not because of his boat or whatever... I think he's right at most things. This is about surviving and not about making friends.
what do you mean right at most things...what are these "most things"
assides from the meat locker, and attracting zombie attention, and running away, has he ever done anything...just wondering
edit: OH, I know...when he blindly runs out and gets shot like a fool...thats the "most things" he was right about
So Kenny is not your friend? I am glad to hear that.
Basically, each of us is going to see what we want, based upon how OUR decisions played out. So, go ahead and call Kenny a coward and an idiot - in your playthrough, that assessment may be totally correct.
But to me, I have a Kenny who may be brash, but is a loyal friend. I can only judge Kenny by his actions, not by the possibility of him behaving differently in what is essentially, a different "dimension".
Haven't read the comics, and I don't watch the show.
From what I glean here on the forums, I can empathize with his ruthlessness, even though it doesn't make him more right than anyone else.
Say hello to "choices" and non-linearity. It's really hard to write consistent characters and ALSO give people consequences and opportunity to form a ranging variety of relationships WITH said characters. Almost always you are going to end up with one example or another of a character that acts out of turn.
One glaring example to me is when Lilly becomes the voice to not take the food. This is the same woman who that very morning scolded me for rescuing a kid from the Walkers for LACK of food. She certainly never showed that she cared if anyone other than the original group lived or died before - why does she suddenly start now?
I too have never read the comic's nor will I until the end of the TV show (which I have watched and am hooked on.. currently watching the Walking Dead weekend seasons 1,2 on AMC) And I wont look at the comic's til the end of EP5 game.
I understand Shane's ruthleness, and to a degree I even agree with him about 75% of the time because I share his sence of survival.
Where I think Shane goes wrong, is because before Rick found his family, Shane was the leader of the group and had Ricks wife and sone to look after.. When Rick arrived, Shane lost all that. I think that took it's toll on Shane.
Not only has the world gone to hell and Shane has lost everything he ever had, but now lost control of the group, lost Lori and Carl. I see myself playing Lee very much more like Shane than Rick.
Now I concider Kenny to be in a similar position, He still has his wife and son and is doing anything he feel's he has to, to keep them safe. It's a crazy world and you just cant sit there and decide how you are going to handle every situation when you have no Idea what's coming next.
Kenny is unpredictable at times, I get that, but I get why and I can't fault him for that. Part of my reasoning is indeed the boat, but look how fast thing's can change. Today Kenny may act like an ass, but in EP3, Lee could save his life and have Kenny's loyalty and friendship.
Don't be too quick to judge just yet.. we're only at 2 of 5 and there's much more to come.
Now as I say that I think of how it was me (Lee) who smashed Larry's head with the salt lick. Not just to stay on Kenny's side, but because Larry tried to kill Lee.. That punch in the drug store was meant to leave Lee for the walkers.
After Lee risked his own like to get the key to the pharmacy to save Larry.
I wasnt about to give Larry a second chance!
Oh dude you are in for a treat, the comics are amazing and brutal
The thing is, you do typically survive by making friends. To reiterate, people who like/love you do so even while you're sleeping. A person that likes you is more likely to trust and go out of their way for you (indeed, the game tends to show us as much).
The problem with that assessment is that he does stupid/cowardly things on any playthrough, regardless of Lee's decision: abandoning Shawn after Duck was clear from the tractor? Check (hell, he even admits that one). Attracting a horde of Walkers in Macon? Check. Working on things that won't/can't benefit the group as a whole like the RV so he can try to reach his boat? Check. Potentially antagonizing people like the St. John brothers at a time they were apparently friendly and willing to help the group? Check. Potentially alerting the St. John's family (when it was clear they were no longer so friendly) to the fact you had just escaped and at a time the group was still unarmed? Check.
These are all things that occur no matter your decisions, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I wouldn't expect somebody to have a perfect record (particularly without survival experience or training), but that record is downright abysmal. The majority of things on that list all have/had the potential to screw over the group as a whole, if not just plain get them killed.
As the old adage goes, "survival is 90% mental, 10% physical", and it's very true. The guy who's brash, charging off, not thinking things through, etc. is the one that's more likely to get you killed in pretty much any survival situation.
Way to leave out everything he does right just because it doesn't suit your argument.
He gives Lee and Clem a ride to Macon, despite having no obligation to do so. He assigns people on jobs in the drug store (all of which make sense). He comes back to help Lee in the drug store (risking his life to save yours REGARDLESS of whether or not you have had his back). He is the first to suggest making the motor inn more defensible, and try to "wait out" the crisis (a plan with which Lilly agrees with). He watches Lee's back as he tries to free the teacher, but ultimately is the one who makes the executive decision to leave him there when it gets to dangerous to stay. Both he AND Lilly were mistrusting of the St. John's (and rightfully so), but he is not actively hostile towards them, and had it been his way, he would have been the first to find out that they were butchering people (he was the one who had the idea to search the "back room" in the first place, and probably would have done so himself if Lee were not there).
Just proves my point though, that people are going to see what they want.
Like the victim at the start of ep2? Ya he was real easy to get off.
He just turned and pins you in a matter of seconds...now imagine that being a foot taller and 150lbs heavier.
The babysitter in Clems house; lil highschool girl; gets the jump on you 2x before Clem has to hand that hammer over.
And Im sure the shock of seeing someone who was just dead arise would help calm your nerves for the wrestling match about to begin?
I didnt see any katanas or chisels or sledgepicks in that room: I'd love to know what the plan would have been- put him in a headlock?
1- It wasnt his holdout
2-He was the one who put his AND their group in danger
3- He doesnt know these people and they just saved his life-why did/would they just fall in line with this stranger? And calls you an a-hole for not agreeing with him. Either case, same reason he offers the ride: Free bodyguard Yes he mentions something about wasting ammo and is of course the 1st to suggest bailing. In honesty though, these were strangers and even *I* didnt want to help them, really. Wasnt he also the same one who hinted at overthrowing the rightful owners of the farm if they wouldnt let them stay on? This is when everyone thought they were just honest farm folk- ya he's a class act, that Kenny
Your assertion was that Kenny's cowardice/stupidity were dependant on playthrough, which isn't true.
Despite that, most of the things you listed were outside of crisis situations, so it's not like you can form an opinion on whether he's a coward or not. Even then, for things like the ride to Macon, he was heading there anyway. He also wasn't at that much risk in the drug store when he comes back for Lee, he has Lee's weapon, and the only Walker that was in range to attack was both prone and focused on Lee, the rest were still atleast halfway across the store.
Things like watching my back when we're away from camp while I'm helping someone else (especially since Kenny was the first one to suggest the group would help) is expected, it's hardly going above and beyond the call of duty. You don't get a bonus for doing things you're supposed to.
And yeah, he was potentially hostile to the St. John's family at the time they were apparently friendly and offering aid. He suggested taking the dairy by force, I'd consider that hostile - hell, he didn't even consider the risk of casualties to the group as part of that plan in the event the family decided to do something nutty like defend their livelihood.
Kenny didn't know what was on the other side of the door in the barn. The back room of the barn also didn't explicitly show the family was eating people since there weren't any identifiable remains in the room. The only real proof that the family was eating people was Mark, inside the house. If we want to judge this on "after the fact" rationale, Kenny's plan actually delayed that discovery because the time Lee spent on the door could've been spent in the house finding Mark.
Despite all that, at the end of the day, Kenny's actions have/had the easily forseeable potential of getting a group of over half a dozen people killed or screwed over several times. I never claimed his record was 100% bad (as the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day), but the bad definitely outweighs the good.
(Ugh, I had a really long post, only to have it eaten up after pushing the submit button. Rule to the wise, highlight and copy your long posts first, then click submit:mad:. Okay, take two...)
Making up false, malicious intentions does not make the actions themselves necessarily wrong.
Number one, the old adage "Safety in Numbers" always rings true. This would mean that OF COURSE it was to Kenny's benefit to invite Lee to ride with him. It's not malicious to want the help of an extra adult, it's just pure common sense. This motivation makes no sense though at the Drug Store, when he has to risk his life to save Lee from the walkers. He has plenty of other adults outside ready to go - he doesn't really need Lee to help him anymore. The bodyguard theory can go completely bunk here as well, because Lee could have possibly shown Kenny not once, but TWICE by this time that he won't help his family. So really, in the Lee/Kenny relationship, Kenny provides the proverbial olive branch, showing that he is willing to risk HIS life to save Lee's.
I don't think it is strange for Kenny to apply a few leadership skills in the Drug store, either. The group was torn even before we showed up (Carley and Glenn showing that they didn't necessarily agree with Lilly's leadership style). Lilly then becomes consumed with her father's well being. Kenny steps up, and gives everybody something to focus on (other than the rambling horde of Zombies threatening them outside). If it had been me, I would have done the same thing.
As for saving the group in the woods, one thing I think that everyone has to understand is that, while you get to make some decisions, ultimately Lee is a character that you are role playing, thus there is going to be some railroading of the plot that you might not agree with (for example, automatically agreeing with Glenn to save the woman in the motel). Lee, Mark, and Kenny decide to try to help the teacher, and Kenny is the one to cover you while you take the time to try to free him. He is the one paying attention to the Walker's closing in on you - therefore it is his call about when it is "safe" to leave, and frankly, he's right.
And I can agree that talking about "taking the farm by force" is the perfect example of how he doesn't think things through, but it's hardly like he came in shooting his rifle at the St. John's. He minded his actions and avoided being outwardly hostile towards the family, but is still talking to Lee about scoping things out, and rightfully so. The only other person to truly share his skepticism is Lilly, and her only plan is just to leave (which would have been problematic when the group attempted to retrieve Mark and they couldn't).
And I have said before, the man is brash, and prone to panic. I don't see him as being primarily a bad man, however, due to my specific interactions with him.