Short answer: Yes, as a gay man myself I would love to see more characters in the Walking Dead game with a wider range of sexual identities.
Long answer: I guess I just don't see why not you know? If anyone could make well-written LGBT characters it would be Telltale definitely. They've proven that with making such great ethnic characters like Lee, Christa, Omid, and Clementine. Their race doesn't define them, but is just one part of who they are. In the walking dead universe, there isn't much time to deal with trivial things like race, gender issues, and sexuality anymore. It's kill or be killed. Sure issues like that still exist, but they're subtle and more in the background (i.e Kenny's urban joke lol).
As Chuck put it "You're either living or you're not. You ain't little, you ain't a girl, you ain't a boy, you ain't strong or smart. You're alive." This principle embodies the Walking Dead perfectly to me. Honestly you can use the same principle to make great gay characters as well. They don't have to be walking cliches (or worse they constantly hit on every person with the same sex as them lol). It could just be something they mention about themselves or maybe they make a simple reference to an ex-boyfriend or something. Really simple to me. Let's be honest, it's actions that define characters in the Walking Dead. If someone is a bad ass zombie killing machine who was also gay I don't think people would mind too much.
The best thing about WD in the comic or the game is it shows people as they are, not people as we want them to be. Most of the world is not PC, and you put them under stress, and they start getting much less so. Quite frankly, I'm a little disappointed that the franchise has stayed away from racism, sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia. The telltale game addressed it much more so than the comics, that's for sure (the old couple in 400 Days, so of the early comments with Lee). When people are under pressure, a lot of their filters go away.
Around 3% of the population is gay. That means by the time we get to 30 characters, we should see at least 1 gay person. But then, how would you know? The majority of the characters we meet don't get into their sexual identities while they're trying to survive. Even more importantly, in a world where building trust quickly and belonging to a group is so important, some who were gay might not want to bring it up at all, being perceived as "different" can be dangerous when you need to be tight with your people to survive.
Aside from those we've seen with visible opposite-sex partners, how do we actually know who's gay, lesbian, or bi? Being gay isn't always visible. It's not a physical trait like skin color or sex. Lilly could be lesbian, Doug could be gay, Carley could be bi, who knows?
I think Doug was bi, to be honest, but it could be the Ben/Doug pairing stuff I've seen messing with my mind. I don't think Lilly was lesbian, though, but I have read some great CarLilly fanfics.
Aside from those we've seen with visible opposite-sex partners, how do we actually know who's gay, lesbian, or bi? Being gay isn't always visi… moreble. It's not a physical trait like skin color or sex. Lilly could be lesbian, Doug could be gay, Carley could be bi, who knows?
Doesn't it bother the fanfic writers at all that Lilly put a bullet through Carley's brains? That kind of hatred and mistrust hardly seems like a good basis for a romance. Besides Carley seemed to be romantically interested about Doug and Lee.
I think Doug was bi, to be honest, but it could be the Ben/Doug pairing stuff I've seen messing with my mind. I don't think Lilly was lesbian, though, but I have read some great CarLilly fanfics.
In the comic book series there are some sex things and in the show. But i'm sure Season 2 is going to be based around Clementine. So we'll probably won't ever see that.
Matching the player's preference is kind of how role playing games work though, you take what you like and abandon what you don't and play along with the rest.
Adventures, or whatever Telltale is calling their games nowadays, don't have to work that way, they are much more focused (and much shorter). It's a bit unfair to reference Bioware when they're trying to accomplish something very different from what Telltale is trying to do. They also cater to a bigger audience: If I think zombies are lame, quick time events are stupid and don't like half of the cast, then I can still have fun with a Bioware game (which has all of this) but probably won't enjoy Telltale's The Walking Dead.
The real world is a world of differences, of diversity. And sometimes individuality means incompatibility. If the person you're falling in lov… moree with isn't even into your gender, that's a prime source of broken hearts nowadays. Bioware's world is basically one where ALL the creatures in the universe mix and match at the player's preference. Politically correct or not, that's just not good fiction.
As for the zombie sex scene... well, I've never seen the "Warm Bodies" movie, but I'm sure we're really not far from this atrocity. Telltale's certainly not doing it, though. As proper Americans, they'll readily break every violence taboo still available, but sex is off limits.
I don't think it does. It's like pairing Lilly up with Mark, but hey, it's also like putting Harry Potter with Draco Malfoy - and that's one of the most popular slash pairings. I don't get it though. I don't support Carley/Lilly, but I have read some pretty interesting ones.
In the comic book series there are some sex things and in the show. But i'm sure Season 2 is going to be based around Clementine. So we'll probably won't ever see that.
That's odd. While I admit that I have difficulties to understand the whole point of sexual fanfiction, I find it particularly difficult to understand such fanfiction as this Carley/Lilly pairing, because it basically abandons completely established canon and rewrites the characters with completely new motivations and sexual identities. Also I find this particular pairing bit morbid.
I don't think it does. It's like pairing Lilly up with Mark, but hey, it's also like putting Harry Potter with Draco Malfoy - and that's one o… moref the most popular slash pairings. I don't get it though. I don't support Carley/Lilly, but I have read some pretty interesting ones.
I totally interpreted Mark as gay. Something about the way he speaks to and sticks up for Lee implies that he has a crush on him. To me, that made his death at the end of the episode all the more tragic. I think his frequent compliments and encouragement was *intended * to make you care for him in a short space of time, but to me it came across as lovestruck.
I also considered that Doug might be bisexual, but to be honest I don't know why. Probably the sudden "you're a great guy, Lee" moment. Still, considering how Carley blatantly fancied Lee, and Lilly slightly less blatantly... To me, all the characters wanted a piece of the Everett.
I have just read this read, and I do say that I find some of the comments rather unsettling, even sickening.
Many people said no because they said that the game wasn't about 'sex' so there was no need.
Are you people really so narrow minded that you think gay relationships are only about sex? Are you kidding me?
In series 1 we had, off the top of my head, at least 6 straight relationships presented (not including people like Wyatt Eddie and Nate wearing their heterosexuality on their sleeve). If the walking dead shouldn't be about things like that, why didn't people get in an uproar about the fact that Kenny and Katjaa were married? Why wasn't there claims of bioware ism when omid and christa entered the frey?
Yet people do seem to have problems with a gay couple being in season two, and I just want an actual good reason why not, that isn't rooted in homophobia.
So here it is, why shouldn't gay couples in future series of the walking dead be treated as straight couples were in series one? Are they inferior?
And please don't say 'because people wouldn't be comfortable with them'. I'm not comfortable with the straight relationships in it, but I don't think they should remove them.
I don't feel at all comfortable with straight relationships being in the game, but I don't complain about it because you know what? Straight people exist, and the game tries to portray it's characters as being realistic.
Gay people exist. It is likely that, if a zombie apocalypse actually happened, you WOULD have to deal with some gay people. Shock, horror, right?
Get over it, and stop acting like gay people and gay characters are somehow automatically less valid than their straight counterparts.
Okay, so first of all, LGBTs are 3,8% of the population. (lesbian or gay (1.70%), bisexual (1.80%), or transgender (0.30%))
If it's about being realistic, there are less than 4% chances that we'd meet one LGBT person.
Talking about relationships and couples. Couples (and families) that were together before the zombie apocalypse and manage to stay together after are quite rare. They're more frequent at the beginning of the crisis, but are rarer and rarer as time goes on and zombie attacks/accidents/all sort of bad events/ happen and separate people.
At some point, most relationships are between survivors who meet amongst the chaos.
And unless I'm mistaken, a gay or lesbian relationship takes respectively two gay men / two lesbian women.
So once again, speaking about realism, the odds that in our average group of survivors, formed with completely different people coming from different geographical areas or social backgrounds, there would be not only 1 gay man (or lesbian woman) but 2 are even lower.
(lesbian and gay = 1,70%... Let's cut in half and say lesbians are 0,85% and gay males 0,85% : chances that a homosexual person randomly encounters another homosexual person of his/her sex are for the 0,85% of the population to meet the 0,85% of the population)
Basically you're mad because a highly unlikely situation can't be found in a game that -quote : "tries to portray it's characters as being realistic" -end of quote.
I have just read this read, and I do say that I find some of the comments rather unsettling, even sickening.
Many people said no because th… moreey said that the game wasn't about 'sex' so there was no need.
Are you people really so narrow minded that you think gay relationships are only about sex? Are you kidding me?
In series 1 we had, off the top of my head, at least 6 straight relationships presented (not including people like Wyatt Eddie and Nate wearing their heterosexuality on their sleeve). If the walking dead shouldn't be about things like that, why didn't people get in an uproar about the fact that Kenny and Katjaa were married? Why wasn't there claims of bioware ism when omid and christa entered the frey?
Yet people do seem to have problems with a gay couple being in season two, and I just want an actual good reason why not, that isn't rooted in homophobia.
So here it is, why shouldn't gay couples in future series of the walki… [view original content]
You should read thread where another poster asks more detailed heterosexual romances into game, the reaction is equally negative. You shouldn't start accusing people without doing proper research first. While there probably might be some homophopic people around, most posters in this thread aren't. They just don't see how adding romance stuff would improve the story and game experience.
Like I said earlier my own view is ambivalent and while I don't actively support adding any romance stuff, I don't automatically condemn it if it's written properly and fits to the story.
I have just read this read, and I do say that I find some of the comments rather unsettling, even sickening.
Many people said no because th… moreey said that the game wasn't about 'sex' so there was no need.
Are you people really so narrow minded that you think gay relationships are only about sex? Are you kidding me?
In series 1 we had, off the top of my head, at least 6 straight relationships presented (not including people like Wyatt Eddie and Nate wearing their heterosexuality on their sleeve). If the walking dead shouldn't be about things like that, why didn't people get in an uproar about the fact that Kenny and Katjaa were married? Why wasn't there claims of bioware ism when omid and christa entered the frey?
Yet people do seem to have problems with a gay couple being in season two, and I just want an actual good reason why not, that isn't rooted in homophobia.
So here it is, why shouldn't gay couples in future series of the walki… [view original content]
You should read thread where another poster asks more detailed heterosexual romances into game, the reaction is equally negative. You shouldn'… moret start accusing people without doing proper research first. While there probably might be some homophopic people around, most posters in this thread aren't. They just don't see how adding romance stuff would improve the story and game experience.
Like I said earlier my own view is ambivalent and while I don't actively support adding any romance stuff, I don't automatically condemn it if it's written properly and fits to the story.
And Virgil, something you have completely ignored is the fact that gay people tend to live in similar areas of amarica; there are more gay people in Atlanta than in texas, for example.
In addition, gay people often make friend with other gay people. This changes the figures so it is far more likely than 1.70 x 2,3,4 etc. that you would meet two together.
There are more than 1.70% x 1.70% gay couples in the us.
Besides, my problem is with people saying it should not be in the game at all. Is it really unrealistic to meet a single gay character? Really?
There is no good reason why a gay character should actually be AVOIDED, is there?
How big is the percentage of female news reporters in America? See, I would bet it's less than 3.8%, wouldn't you,? Yet was Carley an unrealistic character? No, because you really gives a damn about who someone used to be in a zombie apocalypse.
Besides, as I say, say we meet another 25 characters in season 2, then it is statistically unlikely that not one character from both seasons would be gay.
You have no idea how it feels to have some people (not you) in a thread like this say that they don't want any gay characters, just because they're gay. You don't understand that aching pain, the feeling that people hate you before you've even met them...it feels absolutely crap.
Having characters like this can show people that gay people are just as valid as everyone else.
In a world where being gay can incur the death penalty, being treated like this in supposedly more civilised countries is just..
What if people said they didn't want any black characters? No asians? It would be sickening in its intention.
Okay, so first of all, LGBTs are 3,8% of the population. (lesbian or gay (1.70%), bisexual (1.80%), or transgender (0.30%))
If it's about bei… moreng realistic, there are less than 4% chances that we'd meet one LGBT person.
Talking about relationships and couples. Couples (and families) that were together before the zombie apocalypse and manage to stay together after are quite rare. They're more frequent at the beginning of the crisis, but are rarer and rarer as time goes on and zombie attacks/accidents/all sort of bad events/ happen and separate people.
At some point, most relationships are between survivors who meet amongst the chaos.
And unless I'm mistaken, a gay or lesbian relationship takes respectively two gay men / two lesbian women.
So once again, speaking about realism, the odds that in our average group of survivors, formed with completely different people coming from different geographical areas or social backgrounds, there would … [view original content]
"they don't want any gay characters, just because they're gay"
That is not what people are saying in this thread, I just reread it.
Nearly all of us would be okay if there happens to be a gay character or couple in the game.
But asked if we specifically WANT gay characters, we answer no.
Not having a specifical, voluntary desire for something is not the same as being opposed to this thing.
As someone who totally enjoyed being Lee, if I had been asked before TWD1 "do you WANT the main character to be black", I would have answered no, because, why would I specifically want that ? I don't mind as long as he's a great character to play, but on the other hand I don't especially feel the need for a black main character...
See ? Not wanting is not the same as being opposed.
You're being paranoid and overly dramatic (especially with the argument of death penalty for gays in some countries, yeah, you can totally compare that with the minor inconvenience of not having characters sharing your sexual orientation in a video game... First world problem, dude, check your privilege ).
And Virgil, something you have completely ignored is the fact that gay people tend to live in similar areas of amarica; there are more gay peo… moreple in Atlanta than in texas, for example.
In addition, gay people often make friend with other gay people. This changes the figures so it is far more likely than 1.70 x 2,3,4 etc. that you would meet two together.
There are more than 1.70% x 1.70% gay couples in the us.
Besides, my problem is with people saying it should not be in the game at all. Is it really unrealistic to meet a single gay character? Really?
There is no good reason why a gay character should actually be AVOIDED, is there?
How big is the percentage of female news reporters in America? See, I would bet it's less than 3.8%, wouldn't you,? Yet was Carley an unrealistic character? No, because you really gives a damn about who someone used to be in a zombie apocalypse.
Besides, as I say, say we meet another 25 characters in se… [view original content]
Many people are generally against adding more romance stuff to The Walking Dead, it is a different thing than being completely against all romances. You have to separate lack of interest towards romantic stuff (because people have preferences towards other things, like they want to see more gore, violence and walkers and/or explore the fates of already existing characters) from actual hatred, because playing the race card (or in this case sexual orientation card) never does any good in a polite discussion.
So you don't want straight people, white people, Asian people or gay or lesbian people in the walking dead.
Well, that's absolutely fine because that's how I feel too. I want Telltale to make any characters they want, I just don't want them to specifically shy away from making any characters.
I didn't even notice the absence of gay characters in series one, or in the wolf among us.
I guess I just misunderstood what you were saying.
However, there are people who, in this thread, say that they don't want any gay characters 'because it's not a romance simulator'. And that is not a valid argument, as I'm sure you agree.
And actually, having just reread it, there ARE people in this thread who 'don't want any gay characters, just because they're gay':
On page two, 'Karaj' stated 'No need for any gay or lesbian character. Keep it straight.'
"they don't want any gay characters, just because they're gay"
That is not what people are saying in this thread, I just reread it.
Nearly… more all of us would be okay if there happens to be a gay character or couple in the game.
But asked if we specifically WANT gay characters, we answer no.
Not having a specifical, voluntary desire for something is not the same as being opposed to this thing.
As someone who totally enjoyed being Lee, if I had been asked before TWD1 "do you WANT the main character to be black", I would have answered no, because, why would I specifically want that ? I don't mind as long as he's a great character to play, but on the other hand I don't especially feel the need for a black main character...
See ? Not wanting is not the same as being opposed.
You're being paranoid and overly dramatic (especially with the argument of death penalty for gays in some countries, yeah, you can totally compare that with the minor i… [view original content]
I don't want any romances in the Walking Dead either. Not at all.
However, I don't see how that is relevant. How is having a non-romancable gay person in the group any different than having a non-romancable straight person in the group?
Many people are generally against adding more romance stuff to The Walking Dead, it is a different thing than being completely against all rom… moreances. You have to separate lack of interest towards romantic stuff (because people have preferences towards other things, like they want to see more gore, violence and walkers and/or explore the fates of already existing characters) from actual hatred, because playing the race card (or in this case sexual orientation card) never does any good in a polite discussion.
i don't really care. it doesn't matter - how do you know what the sexual preference/sexuality etc. of these characters were anyway? I didn't go up to ben or lilly etc. and ask them. Is it because you see the way they act, and you say that way is a 'straight' way to act?
It's relevant, because a lot of discussion is about romanceable gay characters and that has been what many people have opposed.
Like I said my own stance is ambivalent and I don't have strong emotions to either way, but what is important to me is that if gay characters are included they are real characters and not just "humorous stereotypes", which are usually more annoying than fun. Most gay people I know act normally, just like rest of the people, so I don't know why almost every gay character in popular media follows the same annoying stereotype.
I think you misunderstand me:
I don't want any romances in the Walking Dead either. Not at all.
However, I don't see how that is relevan… moret. How is having a non-romancable gay person in the group any different than having a non-romancable straight person in the group?
It's relevant, because a lot of discussion is about romanceable gay characters and that has been what many people have opposed.
Like I said… more my own stance is ambivalent and I don't have strong emotions to either way, but what is important to me is that if gay characters are included they are real characters and not just "humorous stereotypes", which are usually more annoying than fun. Most gay people I know act normally, just like rest of the people, so I don't know why almost every gay character in popular media follows the same annoying stereotype.
Kenny has a wife.
Carley fancies Doug and Lee.
Larry fancies Mrs Cannibal.
The Crawford doctor trades pills for sex with a woman.
Omid and Christa is a couple.
Lee can make a move on Carley.
Lee was married to a woman.
His wife cheated on him with a man.
You meet an old straight couple in 400 days.
Nate is clearly attracted to women.
Eddie and Wyatt also talk about it a lot.
Hinted relationship between Bonnie and Leland.
And yet there are no examples of gay relationships whatsoever.
i don't really care. it doesn't matter - how do you know what the sexual preference/sexuality etc. of these characters were anyway? I didn't g… moreo up to ben or lilly etc. and ask them. Is it because you see the way they act, and you say that way is a 'straight' way to act?
So.. you would have liked Ben to make an awkward advance on Lee? I think that would have been rather sweet As I said, I don't really care either way - as long as the character is not a "Hi, I'm just here because i'm gay" character, they would have to have been built well. Maybe it's because in some countries being homosexual is still illegal and/or it's a sin in religion unfortunately ?? fusses are made and complaints are sent to ofcom in uk by some religious people if homosexuality is shown on tv. (sorry I don't know where you're from, maybe you're from uk and know that ^-^) I think in some newspapers there was a fuss over (mass effect)? I can't remember for sure if that was the game.
Because the game makes it clear.
Kenny has a wife.
Carley fancies Doug and Lee.
Larry fancies Mrs Cannibal.
The Crawford doctor trades p… moreills for sex with a woman.
Omid and Christa is a couple.
Lee can make a move on Carley.
Lee was married to a woman.
His wife cheated on him with a man.
You meet an old straight couple in 400 days.
Nate is clearly attracted to women.
Eddie and Wyatt also talk about it a lot.
Hinted relationship between Bonnie and Leland.
And yet there are no examples of gay relationships whatsoever.
So.. you would have liked Ben to make an awkward advance on Lee? I think that would have been rather sweet As I said, I don't really care ei… morether way - as long as the character is not a "Hi, I'm just here because i'm gay" character, they would have to have been built well. Maybe it's because in some countries being homosexual is still illegal and/or it's a sin in religion unfortunately ?? fusses are made and complaints are sent to ofcom in uk by some religious people if homosexuality is shown on tv. (sorry I don't know where you're from, maybe you're from uk and know that ^-^) I think in some newspapers there was a fuss over (mass effect)? I can't remember for sure if that was the game.
I like it when people make a move on my character , or do something romantic etc. Like when a certain character from a certain game comes up to your room with a bottle of wine before the last battle. Awww.... it's a change from being scared and angry etc. though in TWD just that little kiss made the loss seem bigger...so it's good and bad...
The trouble with romances is that if you include them, you usually have to offer a choice. For example, if Carley was written more bravely as a more morally grey character (or if Lilly took Carley's place in the romance) then some people would love it, others would hate it.
They wrote a very small Carley romance as a shout out to the fans who were really interested in her (and to make her death more surprising), but having to do that for more complex characters would divide people. And by offering a choice, it simply becomes a problem of assets.
I like it when people make a move on my character , or do something romantic etc. Like when a certain character from a certain game comes up … moreto your room with a bottle of wine before the last battle. Awww.... it's a change from being scared and angry etc. though in TWD just that little kiss made the loss seem bigger...so it's good and bad...
You have to offer alternative love interests? I have finished more than hundred graphic adventures and those are rare exceptions when you can choose protagonist's love interest. In most adventure games which have romances the player can't choose protagonist's love interest. For example Guybrush Threepwood falls in love to Elaine Marley, not to Carla the Swordmaster or Fester Shinetop.
I disagree with your suggestion that Carly had an interest in Lee - she might have, but the relationship might just as well have been "little sister-big brother" - never underestimate the power of friendship-where-you-keep-the-pants-on. This exist, even between straight males and straight females.
Apart from that you come across in these few posts as a [self-censored], [self-censored], [self-censored] and [self-censored], which doesn't help you at all here. Read the threads about romances and you'll see that people oppose romances a) in general for b) this game, not romances in games overall and certainly not gay vs straight romances. And I belong in that camp.
What I'm curious about however is this: say Telltale did include a gay character. How would you react if you play a male protagonist - but can't romance this gay character? Or to spice it up further: how would you react if there was a gay character - but the protagonist is female and thus totally uninteresting? Neither would actually add any romancing in the game, but both would add a homosexual.
Cool right. It's just this: there would be an outcry from the (mainly gay) fans of the game, trust me on that. The pressure from the fanbase was what made Bioware add Steve Cortez as a gay romance option in Mass Effect 3, and the fans were as far as I know pretty pleased. But in the hypothetical examples I gave, people would go through the roof.
You have to offer alternative love interests? I have finished more than hundred graphic adventures and those are rare exceptions when you can … morechoose protagonist's love interest. In most adventure games which have romances the player can't choose protagonist's love interest. For example Guybrush Threepwood falls in love to Elaine Marley, not to Carla the Swordmaster or Fester Shinetop.
I would not mind at all not being able to romance the gay character.
For example in mass effect, I really liked (REALLY liked) Samantha Traynor (before you say anything, I'm bi not gay.), however, she was a lesbian. And I was a-okay with just being friends with her.
Besides, I think romance in this kind of game is unnecessary.
I disagree that having gay characters in non-romance games will lead to gay romances being added. There were two gay companions in Fallout New Vegas, for example, and I never met anyone who said they wanted a romance.
The key difference with the Steve Cortez situation is that there were already romances in the mass effect series before ME3, and even two lesbian ones had been included, but there wasn't a gay one. As a result of this, it did begin to feel like exclusion, be that justified or not.
That is a totally (TOTALLY) different situation to this one, where no-one is expecting a romance, as the TWD season 1 did not contain one.
And yes, I'm aware that I'm coming across as a douche, I just feel quite passionate about this kind of thing. I'm not usually like this, promise
I disagree with your suggestion that Carly had an interest in Lee - she might have, but the relationship might just as well have been "little … moresister-big brother" - never underestimate the power of friendship-where-you-keep-the-pants-on. This exist, even between straight males and straight females.
Apart from that you come across in these few posts as a [self-censored], [self-censored], [self-censored] and [self-censored], which doesn't help you at all here. Read the threads about romances and you'll see that people oppose romances a) in general for b) this game, not romances in games overall and certainly not gay vs straight romances. And I belong in that camp.
What I'm curious about however is this: say Telltale did include a gay character. How would you react if you play a male protagonist - but can't romance this gay character? Or to spice it up further: how would you react if there was a gay character - but the protagonist is female and… [view original content]
Matching the player's preference is kind of how role playing games work though, you take what you like and abandon what you don't and play alo… moreng with the rest.
Adventures, or whatever Telltale is calling their games nowadays, don't have to work that way, they are much more focused (and much shorter). It's a bit unfair to reference Bioware when they're trying to accomplish something very different from what Telltale is trying to do. They also cater to a bigger audience: If I think zombies are lame, quick time events are stupid and don't like half of the cast, then I can still have fun with a Bioware game (which has all of this) but probably won't enjoy Telltale's The Walking Dead.
The problem is that if a gay character is introduced, it is becomes a point. Steve Cortez was introduced as a gay for the simple reason Biowar… moree wanted to cater to the quite vocal interest groups that wanted a homosexual relationship in Mass Effect. I agree he was well written, but Bioware could just as well made him with a non-descript sexuality like Vega.
A character with the sexuality written out that plainly is there for one reason only, and that is to be a potential romance for the player character. I think this entire issue was very well handled in TWD since you had absolutely no romance involved, which I appreciate since it has become a staple of most RPGs since Baldurs Gate II - simply put, it has become (or is becoming at least) cliché. Carly's very light flirt with Lee was innocent and done very well, and could just as well be seen as a 'lil sis-and-big bro' relationship.
Do you have any other examples besides that Mass Effect 3 one you keep repeating? I'm genuinely curious, because so far, it sounds like you're making a pretty big prediction based on one case of fans making a big enough outcry, which means nothing. I'm sure you don't mean anything by it, but it sounds like you're saying, "well, gay people whined about that, so clearly they're going to whine about this." Needless to say, that's going down a bad road.
I'm also not seeing where you're getting this sibling thing with Lee and Carley. I really don't think you can make "you're going to have to be more talkative if this is going to work" sound like anything other than a prelude to a relationship, just as a start. Or getting up close, kissing one's cheek, and whispering in their ear. I don't know many siblings that engage in such activities, to be sure.
I disagree with your suggestion that Carly had an interest in Lee - she might have, but the relationship might just as well have been "little … moresister-big brother" - never underestimate the power of friendship-where-you-keep-the-pants-on. This exist, even between straight males and straight females.
Apart from that you come across in these few posts as a [self-censored], [self-censored], [self-censored] and [self-censored], which doesn't help you at all here. Read the threads about romances and you'll see that people oppose romances a) in general for b) this game, not romances in games overall and certainly not gay vs straight romances. And I belong in that camp.
What I'm curious about however is this: say Telltale did include a gay character. How would you react if you play a male protagonist - but can't romance this gay character? Or to spice it up further: how would you react if there was a gay character - but the protagonist is female and… [view original content]
Comments
I guess it depends on how many people are using the Walking Dead as a romance simulator, and how many aren't.
Short answer: Yes, as a gay man myself I would love to see more characters in the Walking Dead game with a wider range of sexual identities.
Long answer: I guess I just don't see why not you know? If anyone could make well-written LGBT characters it would be Telltale definitely. They've proven that with making such great ethnic characters like Lee, Christa, Omid, and Clementine. Their race doesn't define them, but is just one part of who they are. In the walking dead universe, there isn't much time to deal with trivial things like race, gender issues, and sexuality anymore. It's kill or be killed. Sure issues like that still exist, but they're subtle and more in the background (i.e Kenny's urban joke lol).
As Chuck put it "You're either living or you're not. You ain't little, you ain't a girl, you ain't a boy, you ain't strong or smart. You're alive." This principle embodies the Walking Dead perfectly to me. Honestly you can use the same principle to make great gay characters as well. They don't have to be walking cliches (or worse they constantly hit on every person with the same sex as them lol). It could just be something they mention about themselves or maybe they make a simple reference to an ex-boyfriend or something. Really simple to me. Let's be honest, it's actions that define characters in the Walking Dead. If someone is a bad ass zombie killing machine who was also gay I don't think people would mind too much.
The best thing about WD in the comic or the game is it shows people as they are, not people as we want them to be. Most of the world is not PC, and you put them under stress, and they start getting much less so. Quite frankly, I'm a little disappointed that the franchise has stayed away from racism, sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia. The telltale game addressed it much more so than the comics, that's for sure (the old couple in 400 Days, so of the early comments with Lee). When people are under pressure, a lot of their filters go away.
Around 3% of the population is gay. That means by the time we get to 30 characters, we should see at least 1 gay person. But then, how would you know? The majority of the characters we meet don't get into their sexual identities while they're trying to survive. Even more importantly, in a world where building trust quickly and belonging to a group is so important, some who were gay might not want to bring it up at all, being perceived as "different" can be dangerous when you need to be tight with your people to survive.
Aside from those we've seen with visible opposite-sex partners, how do we actually know who's gay, lesbian, or bi? Being gay isn't always visible. It's not a physical trait like skin color or sex. Lilly could be lesbian, Doug could be gay, Carley could be bi, who knows?
I think Doug was bi, to be honest, but it could be the Ben/Doug pairing stuff I've seen messing with my mind. I don't think Lilly was lesbian, though, but I have read some great CarLilly fanfics.
No need for any gay or lesbian character. Keep it straight.
Doesn't it bother the fanfic writers at all that Lilly put a bullet through Carley's brains? That kind of hatred and mistrust hardly seems like a good basis for a romance. Besides Carley seemed to be romantically interested about Doug and Lee.
In the comic book series there are some sex things and in the show. But i'm sure Season 2 is going to be based around Clementine. So we'll probably won't ever see that.
Matching the player's preference is kind of how role playing games work though, you take what you like and abandon what you don't and play along with the rest.
Adventures, or whatever Telltale is calling their games nowadays, don't have to work that way, they are much more focused (and much shorter). It's a bit unfair to reference Bioware when they're trying to accomplish something very different from what Telltale is trying to do. They also cater to a bigger audience: If I think zombies are lame, quick time events are stupid and don't like half of the cast, then I can still have fun with a Bioware game (which has all of this) but probably won't enjoy Telltale's The Walking Dead.
I don't think it does. It's like pairing Lilly up with Mark, but hey, it's also like putting Harry Potter with Draco Malfoy - and that's one of the most popular slash pairings. I don't get it though. I don't support Carley/Lilly, but I have read some pretty interesting ones.
You have a point. I hope Season 2 comes out soon...
No, I don't, not at all.
That's odd. While I admit that I have difficulties to understand the whole point of sexual fanfiction, I find it particularly difficult to understand such fanfiction as this Carley/Lilly pairing, because it basically abandons completely established canon and rewrites the characters with completely new motivations and sexual identities. Also I find this particular pairing bit morbid.
I totally interpreted Mark as gay. Something about the way he speaks to and sticks up for Lee implies that he has a crush on him. To me, that made his death at the end of the episode all the more tragic. I think his frequent compliments and encouragement was *intended * to make you care for him in a short space of time, but to me it came across as lovestruck.
I also considered that Doug might be bisexual, but to be honest I don't know why. Probably the sudden "you're a great guy, Lee" moment. Still, considering how Carley blatantly fancied Lee, and Lilly slightly less blatantly... To me, all the characters wanted a piece of the Everett.
I have just read this read, and I do say that I find some of the comments rather unsettling, even sickening.
Many people said no because they said that the game wasn't about 'sex' so there was no need.
Are you people really so narrow minded that you think gay relationships are only about sex? Are you kidding me?
In series 1 we had, off the top of my head, at least 6 straight relationships presented (not including people like Wyatt Eddie and Nate wearing their heterosexuality on their sleeve). If the walking dead shouldn't be about things like that, why didn't people get in an uproar about the fact that Kenny and Katjaa were married? Why wasn't there claims of bioware ism when omid and christa entered the frey?
Yet people do seem to have problems with a gay couple being in season two, and I just want an actual good reason why not, that isn't rooted in homophobia.
So here it is, why shouldn't gay couples in future series of the walking dead be treated as straight couples were in series one? Are they inferior?
And please don't say 'because people wouldn't be comfortable with them'. I'm not comfortable with the straight relationships in it, but I don't think they should remove them.
I don't feel at all comfortable with straight relationships being in the game, but I don't complain about it because you know what? Straight people exist, and the game tries to portray it's characters as being realistic.
Gay people exist. It is likely that, if a zombie apocalypse actually happened, you WOULD have to deal with some gay people. Shock, horror, right?
Get over it, and stop acting like gay people and gay characters are somehow automatically less valid than their straight counterparts.
Get. Over. It.
Okay, so first of all, LGBTs are 3,8% of the population. (lesbian or gay (1.70%), bisexual (1.80%), or transgender (0.30%))
If it's about being realistic, there are less than 4% chances that we'd meet one LGBT person.
Talking about relationships and couples. Couples (and families) that were together before the zombie apocalypse and manage to stay together after are quite rare. They're more frequent at the beginning of the crisis, but are rarer and rarer as time goes on and zombie attacks/accidents/all sort of bad events/ happen and separate people.
At some point, most relationships are between survivors who meet amongst the chaos.
And unless I'm mistaken, a gay or lesbian relationship takes respectively two gay men / two lesbian women.
So once again, speaking about realism, the odds that in our average group of survivors, formed with completely different people coming from different geographical areas or social backgrounds, there would be not only 1 gay man (or lesbian woman) but 2 are even lower.
(lesbian and gay = 1,70%... Let's cut in half and say lesbians are 0,85% and gay males 0,85% : chances that a homosexual person randomly encounters another homosexual person of his/her sex are for the 0,85% of the population to meet the 0,85% of the population)
Basically you're mad because a highly unlikely situation can't be found in a game that -quote : "tries to portray it's characters as being realistic" -end of quote.
Voila.
You should read thread where another poster asks more detailed heterosexual romances into game, the reaction is equally negative. You shouldn't start accusing people without doing proper research first. While there probably might be some homophopic people around, most posters in this thread aren't. They just don't see how adding romance stuff would improve the story and game experience.
Like I said earlier my own view is ambivalent and while I don't actively support adding any romance stuff, I don't automatically condemn it if it's written properly and fits to the story.
The reaction is not equally negative - it is for romances for the main character, but not for things like having Kenny be married to a woman.
And Virgil, something you have completely ignored is the fact that gay people tend to live in similar areas of amarica; there are more gay people in Atlanta than in texas, for example.
In addition, gay people often make friend with other gay people. This changes the figures so it is far more likely than 1.70 x 2,3,4 etc. that you would meet two together.
There are more than 1.70% x 1.70% gay couples in the us.
Besides, my problem is with people saying it should not be in the game at all. Is it really unrealistic to meet a single gay character? Really?
There is no good reason why a gay character should actually be AVOIDED, is there?
How big is the percentage of female news reporters in America? See, I would bet it's less than 3.8%, wouldn't you,? Yet was Carley an unrealistic character? No, because you really gives a damn about who someone used to be in a zombie apocalypse.
Besides, as I say, say we meet another 25 characters in season 2, then it is statistically unlikely that not one character from both seasons would be gay.
You have no idea how it feels to have some people (not you) in a thread like this say that they don't want any gay characters, just because they're gay. You don't understand that aching pain, the feeling that people hate you before you've even met them...it feels absolutely crap.
Having characters like this can show people that gay people are just as valid as everyone else.
In a world where being gay can incur the death penalty, being treated like this in supposedly more civilised countries is just..
What if people said they didn't want any black characters? No asians? It would be sickening in its intention.
Quote: 'Voila' end quote.
"they don't want any gay characters, just because they're gay"
That is not what people are saying in this thread, I just reread it.
Nearly all of us would be okay if there happens to be a gay character or couple in the game.
But asked if we specifically WANT gay characters, we answer no.
Not having a specifical, voluntary desire for something is not the same as being opposed to this thing.
As someone who totally enjoyed being Lee, if I had been asked before TWD1 "do you WANT the main character to be black", I would have answered no, because, why would I specifically want that ? I don't mind as long as he's a great character to play, but on the other hand I don't especially feel the need for a black main character...
See ? Not wanting is not the same as being opposed.
You're being paranoid and overly dramatic (especially with the argument of death penalty for gays in some countries, yeah, you can totally compare that with the minor inconvenience of not having characters sharing your sexual orientation in a video game... First world problem, dude, check your privilege
).
Many people are generally against adding more romance stuff to The Walking Dead, it is a different thing than being completely against all romances. You have to separate lack of interest towards romantic stuff (because people have preferences towards other things, like they want to see more gore, violence and walkers and/or explore the fates of already existing characters) from actual hatred, because playing the race card (or in this case sexual orientation card) never does any good in a polite discussion.
Ooooh, I see.
So you don't want straight people, white people, Asian people or gay or lesbian people in the walking dead.
Well, that's absolutely fine because that's how I feel too. I want Telltale to make any characters they want, I just don't want them to specifically shy away from making any characters.
I didn't even notice the absence of gay characters in series one, or in the wolf among us.
I guess I just misunderstood what you were saying.
However, there are people who, in this thread, say that they don't want any gay characters 'because it's not a romance simulator'. And that is not a valid argument, as I'm sure you agree.
And actually, having just reread it, there ARE people in this thread who 'don't want any gay characters, just because they're gay':
On page two, 'Karaj' stated 'No need for any gay or lesbian character. Keep it straight.'
So I'm not being TOTALLY paranoid :P
I think you misunderstand me:
I don't want any romances in the Walking Dead either. Not at all.
However, I don't see how that is relevant. How is having a non-romancable gay person in the group any different than having a non-romancable straight person in the group?
i don't really care. it doesn't matter - how do you know what the sexual preference/sexuality etc. of these characters were anyway? I didn't go up to ben or lilly etc. and ask them. Is it because you see the way they act, and you say that way is a 'straight' way to act?
It's relevant, because a lot of discussion is about romanceable gay characters and that has been what many people have opposed.
Like I said my own stance is ambivalent and I don't have strong emotions to either way, but what is important to me is that if gay characters are included they are real characters and not just "humorous stereotypes", which are usually more annoying than fun. Most gay people I know act normally, just like rest of the people, so I don't know why almost every gay character in popular media follows the same annoying stereotype.
Oh, well I oppose romancable gay characters as much as I oppose romancable straight characters. Strongly.
But the thread isn't about romance is it? It's about having any characters whatsoever.
Because the game makes it clear.
Kenny has a wife.
Carley fancies Doug and Lee.
Larry fancies Mrs Cannibal.
The Crawford doctor trades pills for sex with a woman.
Omid and Christa is a couple.
Lee can make a move on Carley.
Lee was married to a woman.
His wife cheated on him with a man.
You meet an old straight couple in 400 days.
Nate is clearly attracted to women.
Eddie and Wyatt also talk about it a lot.
Hinted relationship between Bonnie and Leland.
And yet there are no examples of gay relationships whatsoever.
So.. you would have liked Ben to make an awkward advance on Lee? I think that would have been rather sweet
As I said, I don't really care either way - as long as the character is not a "Hi, I'm just here because i'm gay" character, they would have to have been built well. Maybe it's because in some countries being homosexual is still illegal and/or it's a sin in religion unfortunately 
?? fusses are made and complaints are sent to ofcom in uk by some religious people if homosexuality is shown on tv. (sorry I don't know where you're from, maybe you're from uk and know that ^-^) I think in some newspapers there was a fuss over (mass effect)? I can't remember for sure if that was the game.
Nope, I don't want ANYONE to make an advance on the player character, be them male or female
I like it when people make a move on my character , or do something romantic etc.
Like when a certain character from a certain game comes up to your room with a bottle of wine before the last battle. Awww.... it's a change from being scared and angry etc. though in TWD just that little kiss made the loss seem bigger...so it's good and bad...
Do I sense a fellow Kaidenite?
The trouble with romances is that if you include them, you usually have to offer a choice. For example, if Carley was written more bravely as a more morally grey character (or if Lilly took Carley's place in the romance) then some people would love it, others would hate it.
They wrote a very small Carley romance as a shout out to the fans who were really interested in her (and to make her death more surprising), but having to do that for more complex characters would divide people. And by offering a choice, it simply becomes a problem of assets.
You have to offer alternative love interests? I have finished more than hundred graphic adventures and those are rare exceptions when you can choose protagonist's love interest. In most adventure games which have romances the player can't choose protagonist's love interest. For example Guybrush Threepwood falls in love to Elaine Marley, not to Carla the Swordmaster or Fester Shinetop.
Yes , he's so awesome
I disagree with your suggestion that Carly had an interest in Lee - she might have, but the relationship might just as well have been "little sister-big brother" - never underestimate the power of friendship-where-you-keep-the-pants-on. This exist, even between straight males and straight females.
Apart from that you come across in these few posts as a [self-censored], [self-censored], [self-censored] and [self-censored], which doesn't help you at all here. Read the threads about romances and you'll see that people oppose romances a) in general for b) this game, not romances in games overall and certainly not gay vs straight romances. And I belong in that camp.
What I'm curious about however is this: say Telltale did include a gay character. How would you react if you play a male protagonist - but can't romance this gay character? Or to spice it up further: how would you react if there was a gay character - but the protagonist is female and thus totally uninteresting? Neither would actually add any romancing in the game, but both would add a homosexual.
Cool right. It's just this: there would be an outcry from the (mainly gay) fans of the game, trust me on that. The pressure from the fanbase was what made Bioware add Steve Cortez as a gay romance option in Mass Effect 3, and the fans were as far as I know pretty pleased. But in the hypothetical examples I gave, people would go through the roof.
In order to please as many people as possible, yes.
I would not mind at all not being able to romance the gay character.
For example in mass effect, I really liked (REALLY liked) Samantha Traynor (before you say anything, I'm bi not gay.), however, she was a lesbian. And I was a-okay with just being friends with her.
Besides, I think romance in this kind of game is unnecessary.
I disagree that having gay characters in non-romance games will lead to gay romances being added. There were two gay companions in Fallout New Vegas, for example, and I never met anyone who said they wanted a romance.
The key difference with the Steve Cortez situation is that there were already romances in the mass effect series before ME3, and even two lesbian ones had been included, but there wasn't a gay one. As a result of this, it did begin to feel like exclusion, be that justified or not.
That is a totally (TOTALLY) different situation to this one, where no-one is expecting a romance, as the TWD season 1 did not contain one.
And yes, I'm aware that I'm coming across as a douche, I just feel quite passionate about this kind of thing. I'm not usually like this, promise
This isn't a role playing game, this is an interactive movie. There's a difference.
I agree with what you're saying about it becoming kind of a cliche, but... Eh... Not so sure about the other stuff.
Do you have any other examples besides that Mass Effect 3 one you keep repeating? I'm genuinely curious, because so far, it sounds like you're making a pretty big prediction based on one case of fans making a big enough outcry, which means nothing. I'm sure you don't mean anything by it, but it sounds like you're saying, "well, gay people whined about that, so clearly they're going to whine about this." Needless to say, that's going down a bad road.
I'm also not seeing where you're getting this sibling thing with Lee and Carley. I really don't think you can make "you're going to have to be more talkative if this is going to work" sound like anything other than a prelude to a relationship, just as a start. Or getting up close, kissing one's cheek, and whispering in their ear. I don't know many siblings that engage in such activities, to be sure.
I really would prefer that TTG keep the game straight. Sorry it's just my opinion.