The thread may be a bit in your face lol but it raises a point , the killing of season one characters are hurting the franchise when they are just treated as fodder to progress a timeline , when the old fans come back to play season 3 , the majority always loved kenny and clem , so it's natural if you've kept with the series to see the story out , I don't want it to end with someone like jane and the baby and the credits roll , fuck that ! Lol
I'd rather Telltale take as long as they need in order to make season 3 the best it can be, Michonne is just to keep us occupied along the way plus I'm pretty sure it interests a ton of people.
Lol, you have no proof of that. This may have been the case for the people on the forum at one point in time, but you can't speak for everyone who's ever played the game. The max number of people on the forum at one time was only around maybe 200-300 people (have you ever seen any post or thread here with more than 300 likes?) Considering that over one million copies of season one was sold, that's, at the most, only 300/1,000,000 = 0.0003, or 0.03 %. In other words, even when activity was at its very highest, only the opinions of 0.03% of all players of the game were ever represented here on these forums. (And given that Telltale sold more than 1,000,000 copies, that 0.03% should be even smaller.) And the majority of 0.03% is definitely not the majority of all players, lol! XD
The thread may be a bit in your face lol but it raises a point , the killing of season one characters are hurting the franchise when they ar… moree just treated as fodder to progress a timeline , when the old fans come back to play season 3 , the majority always loved kenny and clem , so it's natural if you've kept with the series to see the story out , I don't want it to end with someone like jane and the baby and the credits roll , fuck that ! Lol
Let's not forget he's dead in many playthroughs, and since there are still making a season 3, no, killing season 1 characters isn't "hurting the franchise" whatever that means.
the majority always loved kenny and clem
Lol, you have no proof of that. This may have been the case for the people on the forum at … moreone point in time, but you can't speak for everyone who's ever played the game. The max number of people on the forum at one time was only around maybe 200-300 people (have you ever seen any post or thread here with more than 300 likes?) Considering that over one million copies of season one was sold, that's, at the most, only 300/1,000,000 = 0.0003, or 0.03 %. In other words, even when activity was at its very highest, only the opinions of 0.03% of all players of the game were ever represented here on these forums. (And given that Telltale sold more than 1,000,000 copies, that 0.03% should be even smaller.) And the majority of 0.03% is definitely not the majority of all players, lol! XD
I couldn't have put it more eloquently myself.
Telltale, some forum members and admins would have us believe that doing this Michonne mini series has no impact on Season Three, on how long it takes to be released.
Sorry, but I call bullsh*t on that. If it weren't for the Michonne mini series, Season Three would be started and at least episode one released.
All this rubbish about wanting to take their time with the story and needing time to sort out the different endings makes me laugh.
Rather the people that swallow and believe it make me laugh.
Reason being, it does not take this long to make a game. Specially not from telltale who are (so we are led to believe) experts.
Everywhere from Facebook to Twitter, forums to Youtube and dare I say it, real life, want Season Three rather than Michonne. Check yourself if you don't believe me.
Sorry, but I call bullsh*t on that. If it weren't for the Michonne mini series, Season Three would be started and at least episode one released.
What makes you say that?
some forum members and admins would have us believe that doing this Michonne mini series has no impact on Season Three
You are probably thinking of us moderators, who are only volunteers. Admins are people who are in charge of the forums. Moderators are just people who come on here to keep things in order.
I couldn't have put it more eloquently myself.
Telltale, some forum members and admins would have us believe that doing this Michonne mini … moreseries has no impact on Season Three, on how long it takes to be released.
Sorry, but I call bullsh*t on that. If it weren't for the Michonne mini series, Season Three would be started and at least episode one released.
All this rubbish about wanting to take their time with the story and needing time to sort out the different endings makes me laugh.
Rather the people that swallow and believe it make me laugh.
Reason being, it does not take this long to make a game. Specially not from telltale who are (so we are led to believe) experts.
Everywhere from Facebook to Twitter, forums to Youtube and dare I say it, real life, want Season Three rather than Michonne. Check yourself if you don't believe me.
I couldn't have put it more eloquently myself.
Telltale, some forum members and admins would have us believe that doing this Michonne mini … moreseries has no impact on Season Three, on how long it takes to be released.
Sorry, but I call bullsh*t on that. If it weren't for the Michonne mini series, Season Three would be started and at least episode one released.
All this rubbish about wanting to take their time with the story and needing time to sort out the different endings makes me laugh.
Rather the people that swallow and believe it make me laugh.
Reason being, it does not take this long to make a game. Specially not from telltale who are (so we are led to believe) experts.
Everywhere from Facebook to Twitter, forums to Youtube and dare I say it, real life, want Season Three rather than Michonne. Check yourself if you don't believe me.
Season Three hasn't been released yet because the team is still working on the logistics of it. Season Two ended with five different endings, which had never happened before that in a Telltale season. Season Three is likely going to be a different feeling game than the seasons before it because of that. Because of all of the logistics in working that out (in terms figuring out how all the branches work, writing the story line to work around those branches, and figuring out the new branches in the new story, and working the story around those as well), it takes time.
The third season of Sam & Max is a good example to look at in Telltale's history for a precedent in this. Sam & Max: Season One was released in late 2006 and 2007, and Season Two was released in 2008. Both of those seasons were very similar. Season Two had differences from One, but like Season Two of The Walking Dead, the differences from the first season were minor.
Then the third season of Sam & Max came out, and it was very different from any season before it. It didn't come out until 2010, long after the second season, and the reason it took so long is because the team had to work out how to do things that they've never tried before. If they didn't release Wallace & Gromit's Grand Adventures or Tales of Monkey Island in 2009, it wouldn't have made Sam & Max come out instead, since the logistics of just how to make the third season of Sam & Max just wasn't worked out yet by the team, because it was very different from what came before. Not releasing the games that came out in 2009 just would have meant that other, different games would have released instead. The same holds true for The Walking Dead, since Season Three has to begin from five different possible outcomes, which is something the team has never done before, so that season will also be very different from the other two seasons as well.
The difference though is, Sam & Max fans didn't get anything in between the long wait between seasons. The Walking Dead fans get The Walking Dead: Michonne, which isn't an alternate continuity, as it fits in the same continuity of the game. It's not based on the TV show, so the chances are high that the first two seasons of The Walking Dead will be referenced somehow, there's a slight chance that a character from Season One or Two will appear in Michonne (such as Lily, Molly, or Christa, since they're all unaccounted for at the point of the storyline of Michonne), and there's a really good chance that a character from The Walking Dead: Michonne will show up in The Walking Dead: Season Three (like how the characters from 400 Days showed up in Season Two). It's also very likely that some of your choices in Season Two will affect minor things in Michonne (like how whether you saved Doug or Carley affected a scene in Russell's story in 400 Days).
I couldn't have put it more eloquently myself.
Telltale, some forum members and admins would have us believe that doing this Michonne mini … moreseries has no impact on Season Three, on how long it takes to be released.
Sorry, but I call bullsh*t on that. If it weren't for the Michonne mini series, Season Three would be started and at least episode one released.
All this rubbish about wanting to take their time with the story and needing time to sort out the different endings makes me laugh.
Rather the people that swallow and believe it make me laugh.
Reason being, it does not take this long to make a game. Specially not from telltale who are (so we are led to believe) experts.
Everywhere from Facebook to Twitter, forums to Youtube and dare I say it, real life, want Season Three rather than Michonne. Check yourself if you don't believe me.
Personally I'm hoping he's cut from season three completely. Given the fact that we have 2 different ways to say goodbye to him in season on… moree and something like 5 different ways to end his story in season two, I feel that he's had plenty good enough send-offs for his character that his fans should be happy with it. I especially hate the fact that he gets more endings to his story than Lee did, and at this point I believe Kenny's the character with the second most screentime, when he frankly doesn't deserve that title.
Though of course I know (if they do continue Clem's story in s3) Telltale cutting Kenny completely from season 3 will probably not happen, I can still dreammmm.
Ha! After I changed my profile pic to Jane from the generic TWD one I knew someone would say something like that sooner or later!
And yes lol, Jane is flipping awesome, thanks for asking.
Pfft who cares, I'll be running a high from having more than one episode without Kenny.
Also Jane's actions were as responsible as Kenny's temper and violent temperament for the fight. Pointless argument, they were both being dicks.
Also people that don't like Kenny have got used to their favourite characters being only temporary (e./g. Lilly, Jane, Molly, Christa, Luke, basically every single other character) so we won't react as hilarious;ly as Kenny fans will in reaction to a season gasp without him.
I dont think people would honestly freak out Im not a kenny fan what so ever, but I definitely chose him over jane no matter.
most people like him because just like lee, he was in the episodes since the very beginning, all through out the game, he is one of the MOST main characters like clementine was in season 1
oh no people like kenny! lets make fun of their reactions if kenny is not in season 3 like he was through out 1 and 2 all the way, because its NOT like I freaked out when jane died (obviously you like jane)
The only character that I honestly like right now is Clem, everyone has their own favorite characters, depending on what you did with kenny makes people either hate him or like him, because if your actually nice to kenny hes nice to, which is why people like him
Pfft who cares, I'll be running a high from having more than one episode without Kenny.
Also Jane's actions were as responsible as Kenny'… mores temper and violent temperament for the fight. Pointless argument, they were both being dicks.
Also people that don't like Kenny have got used to their favourite characters being only temporary (e./g. Lilly, Jane, Molly, Christa, Luke, basically every single other character) so we won't react as hilarious;ly as Kenny fans will in reaction to a season gasp without him.
The michonne mini series feel like a little bit of a money grab, doesn't it? After the 400 days nonsense (which ended up being utterly worthless as far as a bridge between seasons 1 and 2 of walking dead) I don't have much reason to give telltale the benefit of the doubt if they say similar things with the michonne series. If it's to be a stand alone mini series of games - then I won't have much interest in it, either. I read the comics for years and watched the show some, so I'm not interested in visiting that space with a video game.
I'm not hating on them for it- telltale is a business after all. This does feel like Disney style brand milking, though. They had something really great and entertaining going with the IP, but I feel like we may be going towards over saturation and fatigue with this.
The michonne mini series feel like a little bit of a money grab, doesn't it? After the 400 days nonsense (which ended up being utterly wort… morehless as far as a bridge between seasons 1 and 2 of walking dead) I don't have much reason to give telltale the benefit of the doubt if they say similar things with the michonne series. If it's to be a stand alone mini series of games - then I won't have much interest in it, either. I read the comics for years and watched the show some, so I'm not interested in visiting that space with a video game.
I'm not hating on them for it- telltale is a business after all. This does feel like Disney style brand milking, though. They had something really great and entertaining going with the IP, but I feel like we may be going towards over saturation and fatigue with this.
When they said that it was a stand-alone mini-series, they meant that it was stand-alone in that it won't require season two to play (it was originally announced as DLC for Season Two, so that's why they announced the distinction of it being "stand-alone").
It will still be part of Telltale's The Walking Dead universe, and will take place in the same continuity as Season One, 400 Days, and Season Two.
The michonne mini series feel like a little bit of a money grab, doesn't it? After the 400 days nonsense (which ended up being utterly wort… morehless as far as a bridge between seasons 1 and 2 of walking dead) I don't have much reason to give telltale the benefit of the doubt if they say similar things with the michonne series. If it's to be a stand alone mini series of games - then I won't have much interest in it, either. I read the comics for years and watched the show some, so I'm not interested in visiting that space with a video game.
I'm not hating on them for it- telltale is a business after all. This does feel like Disney style brand milking, though. They had something really great and entertaining going with the IP, but I feel like we may be going towards over saturation and fatigue with this.
I really hope that TTG don't keep doing this, determinant characters might just keep getting less and less important to some players if they always end up dying regardless. I hope Jane and Kenny both stick around until the end of Season 3 or we at least get a decision to let them stay, make them leave or kill them in Season 3.
Let's not forget he's dead in many playthroughs, and since there are still making a season 3, no, killing season 1 characters isn't "hurting the franchise" whatever that means.
Still, I'm kind of looking forward to this Michonne mini-series, even if its a total detraction from Telltale should be doing (aka TWD S3 w/Clementine) at least we are getting something Walking Dead related from them.
Personally I'm hoping he's cut from season three completely. Given the fact that we have 2 different ways to say goodbye to him in season on… moree and something like 5 different ways to end his story in season two, I feel that he's had plenty good enough send-offs for his character that his fans should be happy with it. I especially hate the fact that he gets more endings to his story than Lee did, and at this point I believe Kenny's the character with the second most screentime, when he frankly doesn't deserve that title.
Though of course I know (if they do continue Clem's story in s3) Telltale cutting Kenny completely from season 3 will probably not happen, I can still dreammmm.
Ha! After I changed my profile pic to Jane from the generic TWD one I knew someone would say something like that sooner or later!
And yes lol, Jane is flipping awesome, thanks for asking.
So therefor Rockstar are not expert game makers because they didn't release GTA 5 a year after GTA 4? by your logic. Sorry Snakecharmer you're talking crap
I couldn't have put it more eloquently myself.
Telltale, some forum members and admins would have us believe that doing this Michonne mini … moreseries has no impact on Season Three, on how long it takes to be released.
Sorry, but I call bullsh*t on that. If it weren't for the Michonne mini series, Season Three would be started and at least episode one released.
All this rubbish about wanting to take their time with the story and needing time to sort out the different endings makes me laugh.
Rather the people that swallow and believe it make me laugh.
Reason being, it does not take this long to make a game. Specially not from telltale who are (so we are led to believe) experts.
Everywhere from Facebook to Twitter, forums to Youtube and dare I say it, real life, want Season Three rather than Michonne. Check yourself if you don't believe me.
Sorry, but I call bullsh*t on that. If it weren't for the Michonne mini series, Season Three would be started and at least episode one relea… moresed.
What makes you say that?
some forum members and admins would have us believe that doing this Michonne mini series has no impact on Season Three
You are probably thinking of us moderators, who are only volunteers. Admins are people who are in charge of the forums. Moderators are just people who come on here to keep things in order.
Season Three hasn't been released yet because the team is still working on the logistics of it. Season Two ended with five different ending… mores, which had never happened before that in a Telltale season. Season Three is likely going to be a different feeling game than the seasons before it because of that. Because of all of the logistics in working that out (in terms figuring out how all the branches work, writing the story line to work around those branches, and figuring out the new branches in the new story, and working the story around those as well), it takes time.
The third season of Sam & Max is a good example to look at in Telltale's history for a precedent in this. Sam & Max: Season One was released in late 2006 and 2007, and Season Two was released in 2008. Both of those seasons were very similar. Season Two had differences from One, but like Season Two of The Walking Dead, the differences from the first season were min… [view original content]
The michonne mini series feel like a little bit of a money grab, doesn't it? After the 400 days nonsense (which ended up being utterly wort… morehless as far as a bridge between seasons 1 and 2 of walking dead) I don't have much reason to give telltale the benefit of the doubt if they say similar things with the michonne series. If it's to be a stand alone mini series of games - then I won't have much interest in it, either. I read the comics for years and watched the show some, so I'm not interested in visiting that space with a video game.
I'm not hating on them for it- telltale is a business after all. This does feel like Disney style brand milking, though. They had something really great and entertaining going with the IP, but I feel like we may be going towards over saturation and fatigue with this.
They're the only ones I could remember off-hand that were unaccounted for in Season Two (since The Walking Dead: Michonne takes place during the same time frame as season two, it's very unlikely that Michonne will meet anyone who was in season two, or at least those who appeared after the time skip).
After taking a look at The Walking Dead wiki to refresh my memory of who is still unaccounted for in that time period, some of the possible male characters who could show up as they were unaccounted for during season two (and remain so at this point) include Clive, Eddie, and Nate.
It hasnt errupted into madness yet. It seems like threads only get closed if they are pointless or have a lot of posters attacking each other, and of course rule breaking, and that doesnt seem to be happening here.
Telltale is doing Season 3 already. This is getting ridiculous now. It's like all the people who think this influences Season 3 don't even want to know that they're wrong and why they're wrong. Telltale has seperate teams working on each games. Season 3 has been worked on at least since the ending of Season 2, probably even before that. Why don't you take it as a good sign that they're taking their time? It probably means that out endings will truly matter this time around and that Season 3 will actually be different for everyone. Michonne exists so that TWD fans have something TWD related to play while Telltale works on Season 3. Season 3 would not come out sooner if Michonne didn't exist. All that would change is that TWD would get nothing related to the franchise until Season 3 comes out. And you would know all this if you had read through only some of the comments in this thread.
Clem and someone else. Please no more Kenny...
Still, I'm kind of looking forward to this Michonne mini-series, even if its a total detra… morection from Telltale should be doing (aka TWD S3 w/Clementine) at least we are getting something Walking Dead related from them.
Comments
OMG, Telltale won't do anything about the TV Show. They focus on Comic universe.
The thread may be a bit in your face lol but it raises a point , the killing of season one characters are hurting the franchise when they are just treated as fodder to progress a timeline , when the old fans come back to play season 3 , the majority always loved kenny and clem , so it's natural if you've kept with the series to see the story out , I don't want it to end with someone like jane and the baby and the credits roll , fuck that ! Lol
Not as many people as you would of thought judging by the initial reaction
Lol, you have no proof of that. This may have been the case for the people on the forum at one point in time, but you can't speak for everyone who's ever played the game. The max number of people on the forum at one time was only around maybe 200-300 people (have you ever seen any post or thread here with more than 300 likes?) Considering that over one million copies of season one was sold, that's, at the most, only 300/1,000,000 = 0.0003, or 0.03 %. In other words, even when activity was at its very highest, only the opinions of 0.03% of all players of the game were ever represented here on these forums. (And given that Telltale sold more than 1,000,000 copies, that 0.03% should be even smaller.) And the majority of 0.03% is definitely not the majority of all players, lol! XD
Let's not forget he's dead in many playthroughs, and since there are still making a season 3, no, killing season 1 characters isn't "hurting the franchise" whatever that means.
I couldn't have put it more eloquently myself.
Telltale, some forum members and admins would have us believe that doing this Michonne mini series has no impact on Season Three, on how long it takes to be released.
Sorry, but I call bullsh*t on that. If it weren't for the Michonne mini series, Season Three would be started and at least episode one released.
All this rubbish about wanting to take their time with the story and needing time to sort out the different endings makes me laugh.
Rather the people that swallow and believe it make me laugh.
Reason being, it does not take this long to make a game. Specially not from telltale who are (so we are led to believe) experts.
Everywhere from Facebook to Twitter, forums to Youtube and dare I say it, real life, want Season Three rather than Michonne. Check yourself if you don't believe me.
What makes you say that?
You are probably thinking of us moderators, who are only volunteers. Admins are people who are in charge of the forums. Moderators are just people who come on here to keep things in order.
That's the bulls**t one. Every Telltale Game has a team development.
Season Three hasn't been released yet because the team is still working on the logistics of it. Season Two ended with five different endings, which had never happened before that in a Telltale season. Season Three is likely going to be a different feeling game than the seasons before it because of that. Because of all of the logistics in working that out (in terms figuring out how all the branches work, writing the story line to work around those branches, and figuring out the new branches in the new story, and working the story around those as well), it takes time.
The third season of Sam & Max is a good example to look at in Telltale's history for a precedent in this. Sam & Max: Season One was released in late 2006 and 2007, and Season Two was released in 2008. Both of those seasons were very similar. Season Two had differences from One, but like Season Two of The Walking Dead, the differences from the first season were minor.
Then the third season of Sam & Max came out, and it was very different from any season before it. It didn't come out until 2010, long after the second season, and the reason it took so long is because the team had to work out how to do things that they've never tried before. If they didn't release Wallace & Gromit's Grand Adventures or Tales of Monkey Island in 2009, it wouldn't have made Sam & Max come out instead, since the logistics of just how to make the third season of Sam & Max just wasn't worked out yet by the team, because it was very different from what came before. Not releasing the games that came out in 2009 just would have meant that other, different games would have released instead. The same holds true for The Walking Dead, since Season Three has to begin from five different possible outcomes, which is something the team has never done before, so that season will also be very different from the other two seasons as well.
The difference though is, Sam & Max fans didn't get anything in between the long wait between seasons. The Walking Dead fans get The Walking Dead: Michonne, which isn't an alternate continuity, as it fits in the same continuity of the game. It's not based on the TV show, so the chances are high that the first two seasons of The Walking Dead will be referenced somehow, there's a slight chance that a character from Season One or Two will appear in Michonne (such as Lily, Molly, or Christa, since they're all unaccounted for at the point of the storyline of Michonne), and there's a really good chance that a character from The Walking Dead: Michonne will show up in The Walking Dead: Season Three (like how the characters from 400 Days showed up in Season Two). It's also very likely that some of your choices in Season Two will affect minor things in Michonne (like how whether you saved Doug or Carley affected a scene in Russell's story in 400 Days).
Ofcourse you would think that. looks at profile image
Ha! After I changed my profile pic to Jane from the generic TWD one I knew someone would say something like that sooner or later!
And yes lol, Jane is flipping awesome, thanks for asking.
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[removed]
Where did you get the thought of Kenny leaving? He better not..
she/he got it from their hopes and dreams
Pfft who cares, I'll be running a high from having more than one episode without Kenny.
Also Jane's actions were as responsible as Kenny's temper and violent temperament for the fight. Pointless argument, they were both being dicks.
Also people that don't like Kenny have got used to their favourite characters being only temporary (e./g. Lilly, Jane, Molly, Christa, Luke, basically every single other character) so we won't react as hilarious;ly as Kenny fans will in reaction to a season gasp without him.
The only character that I honestly like right now is Clem, everyone has their own favorite characters, depending on what you did with kenny makes people either hate him or like him, because if your actually nice to kenny hes nice to, which is why people like him
The michonne mini series feel like a little bit of a money grab, doesn't it? After the 400 days nonsense (which ended up being utterly worthless as far as a bridge between seasons 1 and 2 of walking dead) I don't have much reason to give telltale the benefit of the doubt if they say similar things with the michonne series. If it's to be a stand alone mini series of games - then I won't have much interest in it, either. I read the comics for years and watched the show some, so I'm not interested in visiting that space with a video game.
I'm not hating on them for it- telltale is a business after all. This does feel like Disney style brand milking, though. They had something really great and entertaining going with the IP, but I feel like we may be going towards over saturation and fatigue with this.
Alright, let's not turn this into a Jane vs Kenny thread please. Thanks.
Probably because his death is determinant. Eventually, he'll have to exit the story completely.
Im glad not everyone feels the way you do. Some of us appreciate getting extra content while we wait, like with 400 Days.
When they said that it was a stand-alone mini-series, they meant that it was stand-alone in that it won't require season two to play (it was originally announced as DLC for Season Two, so that's why they announced the distinction of it being "stand-alone").
It will still be part of Telltale's The Walking Dead universe, and will take place in the same continuity as Season One, 400 Days, and Season Two.
I really hope that TTG don't keep doing this, determinant characters might just keep getting less and less important to some players if they always end up dying regardless. I hope Jane and Kenny both stick around until the end of Season 3 or we at least get a decision to let them stay, make them leave or kill them in Season 3.
I'm wondering, are there any shows that ended up killing off their entire Season 1 cast?
Clem and someone else. Please no more Kenny...
Still, I'm kind of looking forward to this Michonne mini-series, even if its a total detraction from Telltale should be doing (aka TWD S3 w/Clementine) at least we are getting something Walking Dead related from them.
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Worse fuckin character.
So therefor Rockstar are not expert game makers because they didn't release GTA 5 a year after GTA 4? by your logic. Sorry Snakecharmer you're talking crap
I like shrooms
Why did you name only ladies.
Could be on to something there.
They're the only ones I could remember off-hand that were unaccounted for in Season Two (since The Walking Dead: Michonne takes place during the same time frame as season two, it's very unlikely that Michonne will meet anyone who was in season two, or at least those who appeared after the time skip).
After taking a look at The Walking Dead wiki to refresh my memory of who is still unaccounted for in that time period, some of the possible male characters who could show up as they were unaccounted for during season two (and remain so at this point) include Clive, Eddie, and Nate.
Why is this thread still not closed again?
Because there is no reason to close it?
It hasnt errupted into madness yet. It seems like threads only get closed if they are pointless or have a lot of posters attacking each other, and of course rule breaking, and that doesnt seem to be happening here.
Well, I didn't want people getting us confused for staff. Also, nice attempt at editing your post.
Telltale is doing Season 3 already. This is getting ridiculous now. It's like all the people who think this influences Season 3 don't even want to know that they're wrong and why they're wrong. Telltale has seperate teams working on each games. Season 3 has been worked on at least since the ending of Season 2, probably even before that. Why don't you take it as a good sign that they're taking their time? It probably means that out endings will truly matter this time around and that Season 3 will actually be different for everyone. Michonne exists so that TWD fans have something TWD related to play while Telltale works on Season 3. Season 3 would not come out sooner if Michonne didn't exist. All that would change is that TWD would get nothing related to the franchise until Season 3 comes out. And you would know all this if you had read through only some of the comments in this thread.